WEBVTT - Thelma Schoonmaker - Summer Staff Picks 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:03.840 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:08.520 Thing from My Heart Radio. It's summer, and that means 0:00:08.520 --> 0:00:11.520 it's time for our tradition that Here's the Thing where 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:15.600 the staff share their favorite episodes from our archives in 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:18.040 our Summer staff Picks series. 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:21.080 Next up is producer Victoria de Martin. 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:26.720 Thanks, Alec. One of my most formative experiences as a 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:30.320 filmmaker was editing my sixteen millimeters short film by hand 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:33.080 on a vintage Steinbeck. When I think of the legacy 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:36.440 of flatbed film editing, I immediately think of Thelma scoon Maker. 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:39.800 She is the woman behind the curtain for Martin Scorsese's films, 0:00:40.080 --> 0:00:43.000 responsible for editing all of his films since Raging Bull. 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:46.360 Something I love about this conversation with Thelma is how 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:48.960 much insight she gives into her editing process and her 0:00:49.000 --> 0:00:53.159 working relationship with Scorsese. The specificity to which Thelma can 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:56.120 recall the exact camera work of certain shots and which 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:59.600 dailies Marty liked and didn't like is incredible. Their working 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:03.400 relationship is a perfect marriage, and Thelma has become indispensable 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:06.880 to Scorsese since their first introduction, back when she volunteered 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:09.240 to help out a young film student whose film negative 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:12.240 had been cut wrong. This was a young Martin Scorsese 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:16.039 with her calm, thoughtful and precise demeanor. It's clear to me, 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:19.600 just from listening to this wonderful conversation, why Thelma Schoonmaker 0:01:19.640 --> 0:01:21.000 is a legendary film editor. 0:01:22.959 --> 0:01:26.760 Behind every good filmmaker is a brilliant editor, and Martin 0:01:26.840 --> 0:01:31.800 Scorsese is no exception. His counterpart, Thelma Schoonmaker has edited 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:35.680 every film the cinematic giant has done since Raging Bull, 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:40.880 earning her three Academy Awards and seven nominations. For a 0:01:40.920 --> 0:01:44.440 face and demeanor like your favorite grade school teacher, one 0:01:44.480 --> 0:01:47.279 has to wonder how Schoonmaker has made it through editing 0:01:47.319 --> 0:01:52.240 the epic violence of Scorsese's films. But however she does it, 0:01:52.240 --> 0:01:56.480 it's working. She in Scorsese's forty plus years of collaborating 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:59.520 is widely considered to be one of the most successful 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:04.120 working carriages in movie history. But talented as Schoonmaker is, 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:08.760 editing films wasn't always the plan. Born to American parents 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.240 in Algiers in nineteen forty, Schoonmaker dreamed of becoming a 0:02:12.280 --> 0:02:17.160 diplomat and working overseas, but fate intervened, and today, fresh 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:20.839 off editing score SSE's newest film, Silence, she looks back 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:23.400 on the moments that shaped her both as a filmmaker 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:24.280 and a person. 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:28.720 Something like Age of Innocence. We certainly had to slow 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:31.720 down and figure out how to reach a pace that 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:36.280 reflected nineteenth century New York with Kundun, which was one 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:39.799 of my favorites. I had to really learn a great 0:02:39.840 --> 0:02:43.600 deal about Tibet itself, and also Marty wanted to know 0:02:43.639 --> 0:02:46.560 how to shoot the sand mandala, which the monks make 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:50.640 for two weeks, this beautiful, beautiful thing they make with 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:54.760 just funnels of different colored sand, and then after two 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:57.320 weeks they wash it all away on the river. It's 0:02:57.360 --> 0:03:01.959 unbelievable and it's really hard work work. So he wanted 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:05.640 to open Kundoom, which we did with very tight shots 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:07.880 of images of the mandola, and he wanted to know 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:12.120 what were the important ones for him to shoot. So 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:15.000 I had to learn about the san mandala. This was 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:18.520 before we started shooting. I'm usually not needed before shooting, 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:20.680 and so I got to go down and watch the 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:23.720 monks make this incredible sam mandala that was a lot 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:27.920 of fun learning about Tibet and becoming acquainted with these 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:30.880 wonderful Tibetans who were in the film because there weren't 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:34.280 there weren't actors, they were actually acting out what was 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:38.840 happening to them. That was a very extraordinary experience for me, 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:42.640 and I've remained a supporter of the cause and friends 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:46.040 with Tibetans ever since. So that was really world changing 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:48.920 for me. As this movie now, Silence has been for 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:53.400 me in what way it's made me think deeply about 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:57.080 my own faith and also to learn so much about 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:00.640 the people who are still Jesuits, for example, the the Order, 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:05.280 the fervor of that order is extraordinary to meet them. 0:04:05.320 --> 0:04:07.640 And the advisors who came to help us on the 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:13.800 film were so amazing people. So I loved delving into 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:18.960 seventeenth century Japan. The Japanese actors themselves were so incredible. 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:22.000 I couldn't believe how wonderful they were. Even the extras. 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:24.560 You never had to worry about cutting away from a 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:28.240 shot because an extra wasn't paying attention or not doing 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:31.000 what they were supposed to do. Every single person who 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:33.560 came from Japan to work in that movie were so 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:40.600 dedicated and learning to edit. People speaking Japanese or Japanese 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:44.200 speaking a language that was not native to them was 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:47.560 very interesting too. But this film Silence has had the 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:49.400 same impact on me that kuldn't do and did. 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:53.039 When you talk about the sand Mandala and you coming 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:55.680 in early to discuss with him, then you know what 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:58.360 shots you might need or not need for the sequence, 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:00.599 but you say that you're not in involved in that 0:05:00.680 --> 0:05:03.080 kind of composition. Typically you don't sit down with him 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:06.440 during the period of storyboards. Does he storyboard? 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:10.000 Oh, yes, he's storyboards. Now he tends to write on 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:13.000 the right side of the script the little image that 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:16.800 he wants. No, he designs all the camera work, always has, 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:21.559 and I'm not needed usually in the writing or any 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:24.479 designing of the film. So I come on when it 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:26.600 starts shooting, with the exception of Kundun. 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:29.919 Really, so when you come on when it starts shooting, 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:32.320 does he come to do you come to him? Because 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:34.520 I've seen this experience on films that I've made, where 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:38.680 with any director where the editor is sending messages to 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:41.280 them saying we could use this, we could use this angle. 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:44.440 I rarely have to do that with him because he 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:47.440 thinks things. He's a great editor, so he thinks like 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:50.120 an editor when he conceives of the movie. He usually 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:53.680 has an editing style on mine. Also when he writes 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:56.560 or co writes the movie and when he shoots it, 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.599 he's thinking like an editor. There are occasions where I 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:03.680 do ask for things. For example, in the drowning sequence 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.919 where Garupe played by Adam Driver drowns in silence. It 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:13.000 was very difficult shoot, very cold, and Adam was getting, 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:16.880 you know, hypothermia, and so I didn't feel I had 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:21.039 quite enough footage for the drowning sequence, particularly because the 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:25.919 stunt women in Taiwan were not sort of as tough 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:30.359 as maybe more experienced stunt women would be, and to 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:34.159 be shoved down under the water constantly was difficult for them. 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:38.080 So that was one of the few times in Taiwan. 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:42.839 On this incredible sequence where Rodriguez played by Adam Garfield 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:48.040 is made to watch Japanese Christians pushed off boats wrapped 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:50.680 in straw mats so that they will drown. It's a 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:54.680 terrifying sequence, and Marty shot it with three cameras, so 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:58.760 there wasn't a lot of control in that situation. And 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:01.039 he was very interesting and had an idea that he 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:04.440 wanted to show the horror of these people being pushed 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.320 off in the water from a wide shot, to show 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:10.760 the banality of it, like the banality of the way 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:14.400 the Nazis killed people. So it was very complicated shoot. 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:16.880 He was trying to get those wide shots, close ups 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:21.080 on Adam Garfield and cover Garupe and the other and 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:24.080 the Japanese Christians, and it was all happening simultaneous. It 0:07:24.120 --> 0:07:27.600 was chaos, but so I was eventually able. We never 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:30.080 did get any additional footage, but I was able to 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:31.080 sort of make it work. 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:33.040 I think that should never a thought of going into 0:07:33.080 --> 0:07:35.040 a tank or doing anything of a set. 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:37.280 There was some thought of that, but then we decided 0:07:37.320 --> 0:07:39.559 not to so, but that's one of the few times 0:07:39.560 --> 0:07:42.640 there are occasions when I asked for something. But he's 0:07:42.720 --> 0:07:45.480 such a great editor, you know, he knows what he needs. 0:07:46.040 --> 0:07:48.720 And my husband Michael Powell once said to him, you 0:07:48.720 --> 0:07:52.240 don't need to do master shots cut into the center 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:55.000 of the scene. Don't do master shots. Marti Oni does 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:59.120 them now is rehearsal really so not that he doesn't 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:02.560 love wide shots. Keeps saying today with all the fast 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:06.280 cutting that's going on, whatever happened to the shot, the 0:08:06.320 --> 0:08:08.200 shot that Stanley Kubrick would come up with. 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:12.000 Woody, Yeah, a lot of white shots, like five minutes. 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:15.160 You could watch this incredible shot and never be bored. 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:17.960 And now what's happened to it? He says, It's just vanished. 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:21.160 But I want to get back to when you're in 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:24.720 the editing room. Are you cutting a film together and 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:28.040 you start hearing music yourself? What's the inner life for 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:30.160 you when you're cutting a film? 0:08:30.280 --> 0:08:32.200 Well, first of all, the most important time for me 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:34.920 is when he looks at daily's now when he's looking 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:38.600 at dailies. I look at the footage first, as soon 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:40.600 as it comes in, to make sure there isn't something 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:44.520 missing or something wrong. Sometimes the camera in one of 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:48.760 the great shots in The Raging Bull, where it begins 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:51.400 on de Niro down in the basement of this enormous 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:55.160 stadium and he the steadycam camera is backing up in 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:58.240 front of him. It's an amazing tour to four shot. 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:02.439 Marty's referred take on that was ruined in the lab. 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:06.440 There was a claw that went off in the camera, 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:07.840 and so I had to go on the set and 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:10.480 tell him his favorite take with Ruin but fortunately we 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.280 had just as good ones. But what he does in 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:17.280 dailies is really fascinating. I wish that in a way 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:22.680 filmmakers could listen to him, because he's very, very tough 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:26.120 on himself, and he constantly talks to me during the dailies. 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:27.719 I like that. I don't like that. That's I think. 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:31.079 I'm going to get better on take seven. Don't ever 0:09:31.080 --> 0:09:32.959 show me that to me again, burn that. 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:35.160 And so. 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.160 And I'm also telling him what I think. First of all, 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:42.400 he wants me to be a cold eye. He wants 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:44.760 me not to have been on the set and see 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:47.880 how they did something or hear from him what he's 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:49.520 going to do. He wants me to look at it 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:52.000 cold and tell him if it works. So that is 0:09:52.160 --> 0:09:54.480 my part of my job. So I tell him what 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:56.720 I think, He tells me what he thinks, and from 0:09:56.800 --> 0:10:02.079 those incredibly rich reactions of him, I then begin to 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:04.960 create selects, and then I do the first cut before 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:07.560 he comes in, when he's through shooting, and then from 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:09.960 that point on we do all the rest of the 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:13.360 twelve if we can get away with it, twelve different 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:17.600 edits of the movie together, very twelve different edits of 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:19.880 the movie that's what we prefer to do if we can. 0:10:20.000 --> 0:10:23.079 Or is there a bible that dictates what those twelve are? 0:10:23.720 --> 0:10:25.760 Is there a phrase? Do you have a manual? 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:28.520 Is there the film a Marty manual of that mentions 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:29.360 each twelve of those? 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:31.520 You know, what happens is that, you know, we don't 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:33.560 screen the first two or three cuts because we're still 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:36.000 trying to get the film in shape. But once we 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:39.200 start to screen with very few people, maybe twelve people 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:43.160 who are friends who we know will be honest, so 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:45.760 we does confer with other people. Oh yeah, well we debrief. 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:48.880 I mainly do most of the debriefing afterwards. So we 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:51.880 will screen with twelve people, say, then I debrief them 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:54.960 very heavily for two or three days. Then we do 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:57.520 the second cut, and we screen for more people, and 0:10:57.520 --> 0:11:00.320 pretty soon we get up to two hundred, which I 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:03.960 can't debrief everybody. We do cards. Then we'd like to 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:06.400 if we have time to do twelve, because that's how 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:08.880 long it takes. You have to live with the movie. 0:11:08.960 --> 0:11:12.360 People don't understand that I have to marinate it. Yeah, 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:15.080 you have to live with it and learn what it 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:20.400 wants and what it needs, and so all the editing 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:22.760 is just absolutely fascinating. You would love to be in 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:23.360 the room. 0:11:23.679 --> 0:11:26.679 This is at work that you didn't necessarily, I wouldn't 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:30.320 say you fell into it, but you were certainly on 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:31.520 a different course for a while. 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:34.680 Definitely. You grew up where my mother and father met 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:38.080 in France. They were both Americans. They married there. My 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:41.280 older brother was born there in Paris, and then we 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:45.600 were transferred to Algeria and my mother crossed the Mediterranean Ocean. 0:11:45.720 --> 0:11:47.720 She was carrying me at the time. I was born 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:52.280 in Algeria. But unfortunately the North African Invasion occurred where 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:54.599 all the Allies invaded to try and get rid of 0:11:54.640 --> 0:11:58.320 the Nazis in other parts of Northern Africa, and so 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:01.440 we were evacuated. But my mother loved Algeria. She would 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:03.040 have loved to stay there. She was always out there. 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:04.679 Her dad was there because he was with shell oil, 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.640 a standard so yesh. 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:10.920 And then my father went to Aruba in the Caribbean, 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.840 and that's where I grew up with Well, yes, was that. 0:12:14.840 --> 0:12:18.240 Like Aruba in the wartime in post war time? 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:21.160 Well, in the wartime were till fifty five, that's right, 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:24.400 and they were actually torpedoing. They were trying to knock. 0:12:24.440 --> 0:12:27.240 The Germans were trying to knock out the refinery because 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:30.920 it was fueling the North African invasion, and so they 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:36.360 would lob torpedoes and also mortars in trying to hit 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:39.240 the oil tanks which were above where we were living. 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:42.560 So we were taken out every night, wrapped in blankets 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:44.880 and taken to the one building that was made of 0:12:44.920 --> 0:12:48.920 stone and stay there. And I remember seeing the burning 0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:53.560 tankers along the horizon. But eventually the Germans did not 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:56.640 take the island. And what happened was they'd brought all 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:00.800 kinds of Europeans, people from Australia, from all over the world. 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.160 So I grew up in a European atmosphere, which I loved. 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:05.840 So when I came back to the States, when my 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:08.440 father was transferred back to New York, it was a shock. 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:11.600 You got the bends. It was shocking, it was really 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:12.199 it was. 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:14.800 The most shocking thing for you. Nineteen fifty five. 0:13:15.120 --> 0:13:18.480 You're in New York. Yeah, it was no New Jersey, Jersey. 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.040 So in a my father was commuting into New York. 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.760 So I was in Ridgewood, New Jersey, which was you know, 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:27.840 could parts of it were well off. We were not. 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:29.640 We were in the sort of poorer part of it. 0:13:30.040 --> 0:13:33.520 But the thing that shocked me was the rigidity of 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:35.960 this sort of social code. If you weren't a cheerleader 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:38.840 or football player, you were nobody. And I was very 0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.880 unused to that kind of thing. A tribal school and 0:13:42.200 --> 0:13:45.520 also seemed very limited, although the education there was excellent, 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:48.920 But it wasn't until I went to Cornell University, where 0:13:48.960 --> 0:13:50.920 I met a whole bunch of New York Jewish girls. 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:54.120 I was saved because they read books, they listened to 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:56.959 music like I did. I was and I just loved 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:59.520 being at Cornell. And you're a different plan. You were 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.520 going to study, well, I wanted to become a diplomat, 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.640 so I studied the Russian language. Is one of the 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:09.880 first Russian language courses in America because Sputnyk had just 0:14:09.880 --> 0:14:12.600 gone up, so everyone was panicking, and so I studied 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:16.400 Russian and political science with some great, great teachers. And 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:20.040 then I went and took the Foreign Service Exam. That's 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:23.520 the exam, but they do a stress test with you afterwards, 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:26.360 where they have people from the CIA and other things 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.680 try and upset you as if you're at a reception 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:32.440 in South Africa. And they say, what would you say 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:34.880 if somebody said, what do you think about apartheid? I 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:37.520 said I would say it's terrible. And they said, well, 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:40.040 you can't say that until the government tells you. You 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:43.120 can say that. You were going to That's right, you're 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:44.720 going to be very unhappy here. You should go to 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:49.160 the USIA. But I didn't want to do that. I 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:51.720 don't know now the travel bug. What's the difference something? 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:54.840 You're right, I don't know. It's probably stupid of me. 0:14:54.880 --> 0:14:57.960 On the other hand, So I went to work for 0:14:58.000 --> 0:15:01.920 the first Peace Corps program at Columbia University. They were 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:05.200 going to see early on and then I saw something 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:07.800 in the New York Times, which never occurs, which said 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:10.080 willing to train assistant film editor. 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:12.840 No, no, wait, no, what the hell are you thinking? 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:16.040 Well, what was interesting was that there was this wonderful 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:21.280 program called Million Dollar Movie, which ran the same film 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.080 nine times, and Scorsese learned about so many films, but 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:28.200 particularly the films with Pool and Presburger. He would watch 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:30.160 them nine times until his mother said she was going 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:34.800 to kill him. And I was watching that same program. 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:36.880 I didn't even know that I was watching the Life 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:39.520 and Death of Colonel Bloom. So you were a movie watcher, Well, 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.120 I guess I was. I didn't know that that it 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:45.560 meant anything better. What were movies in your family? Well, yes, 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:47.400 I did see. My mother took me to see The 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:50.720 Rich Shoes in Aruba and at one point, but they 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:54.680 were a big movie that was your parents, not big ones, no, 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:57.920 but theater music. Well, yes, when my mother would have, 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:00.600 having lived in Paris, she loved all arts and she 0:16:01.000 --> 0:16:04.480 taught me enormously about that, which was great, very interesting. 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:08.280 My brothers completely didn't go with it at all. They 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:10.280 hated it, and my mother and I whenever we would 0:16:10.320 --> 0:16:12.560 see one of those signs on the side of the road, 0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.600 you know that says revolutionary farmhouse or something, we would 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:18.520 immediately and they would go, oh no. And even to 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:20.600 this day, my brother won't go into a museum, whereas 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:23.240 the first thing I do, I go into a museum. 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:26.200 So my mother gave me all of that. I'm so grateful. 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:28.840 Even though she didn't want me watching television in the afternoon, 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:31.680 I did. And I remember that The Life and Death 0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:33.600 of Colonel Bloom, which is still one of I think 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:37.720 my all time favorite of my husband's films, was seared 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:41.240 into my mind. I remember that, and I remember Hamlet 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:45.560 was pretty Olivier's Hamlet was pretty startling. But I just guess. 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:47.560 I saw this ad in the New York Times said 0:16:47.560 --> 0:16:49.960 willing to train assistant filmmaker, and I thought, well, why 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.000 don't I just go see what this is like. So, 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:55.480 and it was this horrible man who was butchering the 0:16:55.520 --> 0:17:01.040 films of Fellini Antonioni Truffaux for late night television and 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:04.320 on Roco and his brother Visconti's Great film. He took 0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:07.360 out one entire reel. I said, you can't do that, 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:09.679 and he said, nobody's looking at these things at one 0:17:09.680 --> 0:17:13.760 o'clock in the morning, but Marty was. And so it 0:17:13.800 --> 0:17:17.160 was pretty appalling. But I did learn to cut negative 0:17:17.160 --> 0:17:19.040 and I learned to put subtitles, so that was a 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.760 job you had to do that, Yeah, you do it. 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:23.800 And I learned to use a movie all which was 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:27.919 very helpful. Then I couldn't stand this guy anymore. And 0:17:28.000 --> 0:17:30.960 I saw an ad and it said a six week 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:34.320 course at what was called Washington College, which became part 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:38.480 of NYU, and a six week course in filmmaking. So 0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:40.520 I thought, well, if I quit, I just have enough 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:43.359 money to take that course. So I went to something 0:17:43.440 --> 0:17:45.080 change while you had that tib you got the bug, 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:48.160 I guess, so I guess. So. So I get there 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:52.879 at this course and run by an incredible Armenian American 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:55.399 named Hagen Nugien. And when I first went down, I 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.840 was a little late, and I heard somebody screaming inside 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:01.280 the lecture hall. Turned out that's just the Waygnugen always talked. 0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:04.200 And he was a wonderful support to Marty, and Marty 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:06.879 wasn't there. Then was well, Marty, no, this is how 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:09.000 I met him. So we go to this six weeks 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:11.960 course and they carve us up into ten ten people 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:13.840 for each little film. And the film I was on 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:19.000 was a documentary about harness racing, so boring. But at 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:21.239 the end of the six weeks, close to the end 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:23.600 of six weeks, the professor said, does anybody here know 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:26.800 how to cut negative or help Martin Scorcese because he's 0:18:26.800 --> 0:18:30.080 made a student film and somebody has cut his negative wrong, 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:33.399 and so if there's anybody who can help him, And 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:36.880 I said, well, I'll try, you know, And I went 0:18:36.920 --> 0:18:39.520 over and he had been up for two days editing 0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.120 the movie, and he was completely zongkeed, but his eyes 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:44.800 were open, and so I started running the film on 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:48.240 the synchronizer and I said, well, you've lost six frames here, 0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:50.199 maybe we can add them at the tail or. So 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:52.000 I helped him patch it back together. 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:53.960 But explain to people who don't know what do you 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:55.080 mean by negative cutting. 0:18:55.200 --> 0:18:58.439 What happens is when you get a take, the camera 0:18:58.480 --> 0:19:00.800 slows down and you get what's called a flash frame, 0:19:00.920 --> 0:19:04.040 so a white four or five frames. You finish editing 0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:05.879 your movie, then you have to cut the negative to 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:09.640 fit the way you've edited the work print. So you 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:12.400 pull the negative first from flash frame to flash frame, 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:16.680 and then very carefully you spice it together. You match 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.119 it to the workprint, and you cut off what you 0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:22.520 don't need. You never cut right close to what the 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:26.320 number was on the workprint. And this young woman had 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:31.320 accidentally done that. By the way, about fifty years later 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:36.040 she contacted me. She said, I'm the person who did it, 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:39.199 and I'm so sorry, And I said, no, don't be sorry. 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:41.520 You gave me the greatest life in the world. Because 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:43.520 you hadn't just cut that negative, I would never have 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:46.320 met him. Oh my god. So it's a miracle. So 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:51.240 you salvage. Marty's a student film, student film, right, and 0:19:51.280 --> 0:19:52.280 what did you make of him? Then? 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:55.320 Well, it's a young so it's Marty. It was in college, right. 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:59.560 Well, all of us knew from one particular student film, 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.919 collag Just You, Murray, which is filled with incredible ideas, 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:06.080 that he had it. It was very clear he had it. 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:09.920 What was it that he had? Storytelling on films, Prittian ideas, 0:20:09.960 --> 0:20:13.280 startling ideas. For example, it's not just you Murray starts 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:18.080 with somebody's shoes and a hand comes into frame and 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.399 he encourages the camera to lift up to his face. 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:26.120 It was, I mean, just unbelievable, great, great ideas. So 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:28.159 then what happened was a group of us got together 0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:33.120 and we were making films for PBS, short films covering 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:38.800 Aretha Franklin concerts and helping fellow filmmakers finish their films. 0:20:39.280 --> 0:20:42.440 And one of them was Marty's Who's That Knocking? His 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:45.199 first feature film, which he had shot part of and 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:48.119 had run out of money, and so we volunteered our 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:51.240 efforts to help him finish it. And then he taught 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:53.359 me how to edit on that movie. I knew nothing 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:57.440 about editing, nothing, so I was on the crew as 0:20:57.480 --> 0:21:00.159 we were trying to help him finish it, and we 0:21:00.200 --> 0:21:04.280 all did everything. We pushed the wheelchair that had the 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:08.000 cameraman in it because we didn't have dollies. We ran sound. 0:21:08.640 --> 0:21:11.720 I would get lunch. I learned to tie into power 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:14.639 sources in the basement. People said to me, bend your 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:17.080 legs because if you get the jolt, you'll fall down 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:20.400 and it'll break the contact. And I drove the car 0:21:20.520 --> 0:21:23.439