Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the
Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. It's summer, and that means
Speaker 1: it's time for our tradition that Here's the Thing where
Speaker 1: the staff share their favorite episodes from our archives in
Speaker 1: our Summer staff Picks series.
Speaker 2: Next up is producer Victoria de Martin.
Speaker 3: Thanks, Alec. One of my most formative experiences as a
Speaker 3: filmmaker was editing my sixteen millimeters short film by hand
Speaker 3: on a vintage Steinbeck. When I think of the legacy
Speaker 3: of flatbed film editing, I immediately think of Thelma scoon Maker.
Speaker 3: She is the woman behind the curtain for Martin Scorsese's films,
Speaker 3: responsible for editing all of his films since Raging Bull.
Speaker 3: Something I love about this conversation with Thelma is how
Speaker 3: much insight she gives into her editing process and her
Speaker 3: working relationship with Scorsese. The specificity to which Thelma can
Speaker 3: recall the exact camera work of certain shots and which
Speaker 3: dailies Marty liked and didn't like is incredible. Their working
Speaker 3: relationship is a perfect marriage, and Thelma has become indispensable
Speaker 3: to Scorsese since their first introduction, back when she volunteered
Speaker 3: to help out a young film student whose film negative
Speaker 3: had been cut wrong. This was a young Martin Scorsese
Speaker 3: with her calm, thoughtful and precise demeanor. It's clear to me,
Speaker 3: just from listening to this wonderful conversation, why Thelma Schoonmaker
Speaker 3: is a legendary film editor.
Speaker 1: Behind every good filmmaker is a brilliant editor, and Martin
Speaker 1: Scorsese is no exception. His counterpart, Thelma Schoonmaker has edited
Speaker 1: every film the cinematic giant has done since Raging Bull,
Speaker 1: earning her three Academy Awards and seven nominations. For a
Speaker 1: face and demeanor like your favorite grade school teacher, one
Speaker 1: has to wonder how Schoonmaker has made it through editing
Speaker 1: the epic violence of Scorsese's films. But however she does it,
Speaker 1: it's working. She in Scorsese's forty plus years of collaborating
Speaker 1: is widely considered to be one of the most successful
Speaker 1: working carriages in movie history. But talented as Schoonmaker is,
Speaker 1: editing films wasn't always the plan. Born to American parents
Speaker 1: in Algiers in nineteen forty, Schoonmaker dreamed of becoming a
Speaker 1: diplomat and working overseas, but fate intervened, and today, fresh
Speaker 1: off editing score SSE's newest film, Silence, she looks back
Speaker 1: on the moments that shaped her both as a filmmaker
Speaker 1: and a person.
Speaker 2: Something like Age of Innocence. We certainly had to slow
Speaker 2: down and figure out how to reach a pace that
Speaker 2: reflected nineteenth century New York with Kundun, which was one
Speaker 2: of my favorites. I had to really learn a great
Speaker 2: deal about Tibet itself, and also Marty wanted to know
Speaker 2: how to shoot the sand mandala, which the monks make
Speaker 2: for two weeks, this beautiful, beautiful thing they make with
Speaker 2: just funnels of different colored sand, and then after two
Speaker 2: weeks they wash it all away on the river. It's
Speaker 2: unbelievable and it's really hard work work. So he wanted
Speaker 2: to open Kundoom, which we did with very tight shots
Speaker 2: of images of the mandola, and he wanted to know
Speaker 2: what were the important ones for him to shoot. So
Speaker 2: I had to learn about the san mandala. This was
Speaker 2: before we started shooting. I'm usually not needed before shooting,
Speaker 2: and so I got to go down and watch the
Speaker 2: monks make this incredible sam mandala that was a lot
Speaker 2: of fun learning about Tibet and becoming acquainted with these
Speaker 2: wonderful Tibetans who were in the film because there weren't
Speaker 2: there weren't actors, they were actually acting out what was
Speaker 2: happening to them. That was a very extraordinary experience for me,
Speaker 2: and I've remained a supporter of the cause and friends
Speaker 2: with Tibetans ever since. So that was really world changing
Speaker 2: for me. As this movie now, Silence has been for
Speaker 2: me in what way it's made me think deeply about
Speaker 2: my own faith and also to learn so much about
Speaker 2: the people who are still Jesuits, for example, the the Order,
Speaker 2: the fervor of that order is extraordinary to meet them.
Speaker 2: And the advisors who came to help us on the
Speaker 2: film were so amazing people. So I loved delving into
Speaker 2: seventeenth century Japan. The Japanese actors themselves were so incredible.
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe how wonderful they were. Even the extras.
Speaker 2: You never had to worry about cutting away from a
Speaker 2: shot because an extra wasn't paying attention or not doing
Speaker 2: what they were supposed to do. Every single person who
Speaker 2: came from Japan to work in that movie were so
Speaker 2: dedicated and learning to edit. People speaking Japanese or Japanese
Speaker 2: speaking a language that was not native to them was
Speaker 2: very interesting too. But this film Silence has had the
Speaker 2: same impact on me that kuldn't do and did.
Speaker 1: When you talk about the sand Mandala and you coming
Speaker 1: in early to discuss with him, then you know what
Speaker 1: shots you might need or not need for the sequence,
Speaker 1: but you say that you're not in involved in that
Speaker 1: kind of composition. Typically you don't sit down with him
Speaker 1: during the period of storyboards. Does he storyboard?
Speaker 2: Oh, yes, he's storyboards. Now he tends to write on
Speaker 2: the right side of the script the little image that
Speaker 2: he wants. No, he designs all the camera work, always has,
Speaker 2: and I'm not needed usually in the writing or any
Speaker 2: designing of the film. So I come on when it
Speaker 2: starts shooting, with the exception of Kundun.
Speaker 1: Really, so when you come on when it starts shooting,
Speaker 1: does he come to do you come to him? Because
Speaker 1: I've seen this experience on films that I've made, where
Speaker 1: with any director where the editor is sending messages to
Speaker 1: them saying we could use this, we could use this angle.
Speaker 2: I rarely have to do that with him because he
Speaker 2: thinks things. He's a great editor, so he thinks like
Speaker 2: an editor when he conceives of the movie. He usually
Speaker 2: has an editing style on mine. Also when he writes
Speaker 2: or co writes the movie and when he shoots it,
Speaker 2: he's thinking like an editor. There are occasions where I
Speaker 2: do ask for things. For example, in the drowning sequence
Speaker 2: where Garupe played by Adam Driver drowns in silence. It
Speaker 2: was very difficult shoot, very cold, and Adam was getting,
Speaker 2: you know, hypothermia, and so I didn't feel I had
Speaker 2: quite enough footage for the drowning sequence, particularly because the
Speaker 2: stunt women in Taiwan were not sort of as tough
Speaker 2: as maybe more experienced stunt women would be, and to
Speaker 2: be shoved down under the water constantly was difficult for them.
Speaker 2: So that was one of the few times in Taiwan.
Speaker 2: On this incredible sequence where Rodriguez played by Adam Garfield
Speaker 2: is made to watch Japanese Christians pushed off boats wrapped
Speaker 2: in straw mats so that they will drown. It's a
Speaker 2: terrifying sequence, and Marty shot it with three cameras, so
Speaker 2: there wasn't a lot of control in that situation. And
Speaker 2: he was very interesting and had an idea that he
Speaker 2: wanted to show the horror of these people being pushed
Speaker 2: off in the water from a wide shot, to show
Speaker 2: the banality of it, like the banality of the way
Speaker 2: the Nazis killed people. So it was very complicated shoot.
Speaker 2: He was trying to get those wide shots, close ups
Speaker 2: on Adam Garfield and cover Garupe and the other and
Speaker 2: the Japanese Christians, and it was all happening simultaneous. It
Speaker 2: was chaos, but so I was eventually able. We never
Speaker 2: did get any additional footage, but I was able to
Speaker 2: sort of make it work.
Speaker 1: I think that should never a thought of going into
Speaker 1: a tank or doing anything of a set.
Speaker 2: There was some thought of that, but then we decided
Speaker 2: not to so, but that's one of the few times
Speaker 2: there are occasions when I asked for something. But he's
Speaker 2: such a great editor, you know, he knows what he needs.
Speaker 2: And my husband Michael Powell once said to him, you
Speaker 2: don't need to do master shots cut into the center
Speaker 2: of the scene. Don't do master shots. Marti Oni does
Speaker 2: them now is rehearsal really so not that he doesn't
Speaker 2: love wide shots. Keeps saying today with all the fast
Speaker 2: cutting that's going on, whatever happened to the shot, the
Speaker 2: shot that Stanley Kubrick would come up with.
Speaker 1: Woody, Yeah, a lot of white shots, like five minutes.
Speaker 2: You could watch this incredible shot and never be bored.
Speaker 2: And now what's happened to it? He says, It's just vanished.
Speaker 1: But I want to get back to when you're in
Speaker 1: the editing room. Are you cutting a film together and
Speaker 1: you start hearing music yourself? What's the inner life for
Speaker 1: you when you're cutting a film?
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, the most important time for me
Speaker 2: is when he looks at daily's now when he's looking
Speaker 2: at dailies. I look at the footage first, as soon
Speaker 2: as it comes in, to make sure there isn't something
Speaker 2: missing or something wrong. Sometimes the camera in one of
Speaker 2: the great shots in The Raging Bull, where it begins
Speaker 2: on de Niro down in the basement of this enormous
Speaker 2: stadium and he the steadycam camera is backing up in
Speaker 2: front of him. It's an amazing tour to four shot.
Speaker 2: Marty's referred take on that was ruined in the lab.
Speaker 2: There was a claw that went off in the camera,
Speaker 2: and so I had to go on the set and
Speaker 2: tell him his favorite take with Ruin but fortunately we
Speaker 2: had just as good ones. But what he does in
Speaker 2: dailies is really fascinating. I wish that in a way
Speaker 2: filmmakers could listen to him, because he's very, very tough
Speaker 2: on himself, and he constantly talks to me during the dailies.
Speaker 2: I like that. I don't like that. That's I think.
Speaker 2: I'm going to get better on take seven. Don't ever
Speaker 2: show me that to me again, burn that.
Speaker 4: And so.
Speaker 2: And I'm also telling him what I think. First of all,
Speaker 2: he wants me to be a cold eye. He wants
Speaker 2: me not to have been on the set and see
Speaker 2: how they did something or hear from him what he's
Speaker 2: going to do. He wants me to look at it
Speaker 2: cold and tell him if it works. So that is
Speaker 2: my part of my job. So I tell him what
Speaker 2: I think, He tells me what he thinks, and from
Speaker 2: those incredibly rich reactions of him, I then begin to
Speaker 2: create selects, and then I do the first cut before
Speaker 2: he comes in, when he's through shooting, and then from
Speaker 2: that point on we do all the rest of the
Speaker 2: twelve if we can get away with it, twelve different
Speaker 2: edits of the movie together, very twelve different edits of
Speaker 2: the movie that's what we prefer to do if we can.
Speaker 2: Or is there a bible that dictates what those twelve are?
Speaker 2: Is there a phrase? Do you have a manual?
Speaker 1: Is there the film a Marty manual of that mentions
Speaker 1: each twelve of those?
Speaker 2: You know, what happens is that, you know, we don't
Speaker 2: screen the first two or three cuts because we're still
Speaker 2: trying to get the film in shape. But once we
Speaker 2: start to screen with very few people, maybe twelve people
Speaker 2: who are friends who we know will be honest, so
Speaker 2: we does confer with other people. Oh yeah, well we debrief.
Speaker 2: I mainly do most of the debriefing afterwards. So we
Speaker 2: will screen with twelve people, say, then I debrief them
Speaker 2: very heavily for two or three days. Then we do
Speaker 2: the second cut, and we screen for more people, and
Speaker 2: pretty soon we get up to two hundred, which I
Speaker 2: can't debrief everybody. We do cards. Then we'd like to
Speaker 2: if we have time to do twelve, because that's how
Speaker 2: long it takes. You have to live with the movie.
Speaker 2: People don't understand that I have to marinate it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you have to live with it and learn what it
Speaker 2: wants and what it needs, and so all the editing
Speaker 2: is just absolutely fascinating. You would love to be in
Speaker 2: the room.
Speaker 1: This is at work that you didn't necessarily, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: say you fell into it, but you were certainly on
Speaker 1: a different course for a while.
Speaker 2: Definitely. You grew up where my mother and father met
Speaker 2: in France. They were both Americans. They married there. My
Speaker 2: older brother was born there in Paris, and then we
Speaker 2: were transferred to Algeria and my mother crossed the Mediterranean Ocean.
Speaker 2: She was carrying me at the time. I was born
Speaker 2: in Algeria. But unfortunately the North African Invasion occurred where
Speaker 2: all the Allies invaded to try and get rid of
Speaker 2: the Nazis in other parts of Northern Africa, and so
Speaker 2: we were evacuated. But my mother loved Algeria. She would
Speaker 2: have loved to stay there. She was always out there.
Speaker 1: Her dad was there because he was with shell oil,
Speaker 1: a standard so yesh.
Speaker 2: And then my father went to Aruba in the Caribbean,
Speaker 2: and that's where I grew up with Well, yes, was that.
Speaker 1: Like Aruba in the wartime in post war time?
Speaker 2: Well, in the wartime were till fifty five, that's right,
Speaker 2: and they were actually torpedoing. They were trying to knock.
Speaker 2: The Germans were trying to knock out the refinery because
Speaker 2: it was fueling the North African invasion, and so they
Speaker 2: would lob torpedoes and also mortars in trying to hit
Speaker 2: the oil tanks which were above where we were living.
Speaker 2: So we were taken out every night, wrapped in blankets
Speaker 2: and taken to the one building that was made of
Speaker 2: stone and stay there. And I remember seeing the burning
Speaker 2: tankers along the horizon. But eventually the Germans did not
Speaker 2: take the island. And what happened was they'd brought all
Speaker 2: kinds of Europeans, people from Australia, from all over the world.
Speaker 2: So I grew up in a European atmosphere, which I loved.
Speaker 2: So when I came back to the States, when my
Speaker 2: father was transferred back to New York, it was a shock.
Speaker 2: You got the bends. It was shocking, it was really
Speaker 2: it was.
Speaker 1: The most shocking thing for you. Nineteen fifty five.
Speaker 2: You're in New York. Yeah, it was no New Jersey, Jersey.
Speaker 2: So in a my father was commuting into New York.
Speaker 2: So I was in Ridgewood, New Jersey, which was you know,
Speaker 2: could parts of it were well off. We were not.
Speaker 2: We were in the sort of poorer part of it.
Speaker 2: But the thing that shocked me was the rigidity of
Speaker 2: this sort of social code. If you weren't a cheerleader
Speaker 2: or football player, you were nobody. And I was very
Speaker 2: unused to that kind of thing. A tribal school and
Speaker 2: also seemed very limited, although the education there was excellent,
Speaker 2: But it wasn't until I went to Cornell University, where
Speaker 2: I met a whole bunch of New York Jewish girls.
Speaker 2: I was saved because they read books, they listened to
Speaker 2: music like I did. I was and I just loved
Speaker 2: being at Cornell. And you're a different plan. You were
Speaker 2: going to study, well, I wanted to become a diplomat,
Speaker 2: so I studied the Russian language. Is one of the
Speaker 2: first Russian language courses in America because Sputnyk had just
Speaker 2: gone up, so everyone was panicking, and so I studied
Speaker 2: Russian and political science with some great, great teachers. And
Speaker 2: then I went and took the Foreign Service Exam. That's
Speaker 2: the exam, but they do a stress test with you afterwards,
Speaker 2: where they have people from the CIA and other things
Speaker 2: try and upset you as if you're at a reception
Speaker 2: in South Africa. And they say, what would you say
Speaker 2: if somebody said, what do you think about apartheid? I
Speaker 2: said I would say it's terrible. And they said, well,
Speaker 2: you can't say that until the government tells you. You
Speaker 2: can say that. You were going to That's right, you're
Speaker 2: going to be very unhappy here. You should go to
Speaker 2: the USIA. But I didn't want to do that. I
Speaker 2: don't know now the travel bug. What's the difference something?
Speaker 2: You're right, I don't know. It's probably stupid of me.
Speaker 2: On the other hand, So I went to work for
Speaker 2: the first Peace Corps program at Columbia University. They were
Speaker 2: going to see early on and then I saw something
Speaker 2: in the New York Times, which never occurs, which said
Speaker 2: willing to train assistant film editor.
Speaker 1: No, no, wait, no, what the hell are you thinking?
Speaker 2: Well, what was interesting was that there was this wonderful
Speaker 2: program called Million Dollar Movie, which ran the same film
Speaker 2: nine times, and Scorsese learned about so many films, but
Speaker 2: particularly the films with Pool and Presburger. He would watch
Speaker 2: them nine times until his mother said she was going
Speaker 2: to kill him. And I was watching that same program.
Speaker 2: I didn't even know that I was watching the Life
Speaker 2: and Death of Colonel Bloom. So you were a movie watcher, Well,
Speaker 2: I guess I was. I didn't know that that it
Speaker 2: meant anything better. What were movies in your family? Well, yes,
Speaker 2: I did see. My mother took me to see The
Speaker 2: Rich Shoes in Aruba and at one point, but they
Speaker 2: were a big movie that was your parents, not big ones, no,
Speaker 2: but theater music. Well, yes, when my mother would have,
Speaker 2: having lived in Paris, she loved all arts and she
Speaker 2: taught me enormously about that, which was great, very interesting.
Speaker 2: My brothers completely didn't go with it at all. They
Speaker 2: hated it, and my mother and I whenever we would
Speaker 2: see one of those signs on the side of the road,
Speaker 2: you know that says revolutionary farmhouse or something, we would
Speaker 2: immediately and they would go, oh no. And even to
Speaker 2: this day, my brother won't go into a museum, whereas
Speaker 2: the first thing I do, I go into a museum.
Speaker 2: So my mother gave me all of that. I'm so grateful.
Speaker 2: Even though she didn't want me watching television in the afternoon,
Speaker 2: I did. And I remember that The Life and Death
Speaker 2: of Colonel Bloom, which is still one of I think
Speaker 2: my all time favorite of my husband's films, was seared
Speaker 2: into my mind. I remember that, and I remember Hamlet
Speaker 2: was pretty Olivier's Hamlet was pretty startling. But I just guess.
Speaker 2: I saw this ad in the New York Times said
Speaker 2: willing to train assistant filmmaker, and I thought, well, why
Speaker 2: don't I just go see what this is like. So,
Speaker 2: and it was this horrible man who was butchering the
Speaker 2: films of Fellini Antonioni Truffaux for late night television and
Speaker 2: on Roco and his brother Visconti's Great film. He took
Speaker 2: out one entire reel. I said, you can't do that,
Speaker 2: and he said, nobody's looking at these things at one
Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning, but Marty was. And so it
Speaker 2: was pretty appalling. But I did learn to cut negative
Speaker 2: and I learned to put subtitles, so that was a
Speaker 2: job you had to do that, Yeah, you do it.
Speaker 2: And I learned to use a movie all which was
Speaker 2: very helpful. Then I couldn't stand this guy anymore. And
Speaker 2: I saw an ad and it said a six week
Speaker 2: course at what was called Washington College, which became part
Speaker 2: of NYU, and a six week course in filmmaking. So
Speaker 2: I thought, well, if I quit, I just have enough
Speaker 2: money to take that course. So I went to something
Speaker 2: change while you had that tib you got the bug,
Speaker 2: I guess, so I guess. So. So I get there
Speaker 2: at this course and run by an incredible Armenian American
Speaker 2: named Hagen Nugien. And when I first went down, I
Speaker 2: was a little late, and I heard somebody screaming inside
Speaker 2: the lecture hall. Turned out that's just the Waygnugen always talked.
Speaker 2: And he was a wonderful support to Marty, and Marty
Speaker 2: wasn't there. Then was well, Marty, no, this is how
Speaker 2: I met him. So we go to this six weeks
Speaker 2: course and they carve us up into ten ten people
Speaker 2: for each little film. And the film I was on
Speaker 2: was a documentary about harness racing, so boring. But at
Speaker 2: the end of the six weeks, close to the end
Speaker 2: of six weeks, the professor said, does anybody here know
Speaker 2: how to cut negative or help Martin Scorcese because he's
Speaker 2: made a student film and somebody has cut his negative wrong,
Speaker 2: and so if there's anybody who can help him, And
Speaker 2: I said, well, I'll try, you know, And I went
Speaker 2: over and he had been up for two days editing
Speaker 2: the movie, and he was completely zongkeed, but his eyes
Speaker 2: were open, and so I started running the film on
Speaker 2: the synchronizer and I said, well, you've lost six frames here,
Speaker 2: maybe we can add them at the tail or. So
Speaker 2: I helped him patch it back together.
Speaker 1: But explain to people who don't know what do you
Speaker 1: mean by negative cutting.
Speaker 2: What happens is when you get a take, the camera
Speaker 2: slows down and you get what's called a flash frame,
Speaker 2: so a white four or five frames. You finish editing
Speaker 2: your movie, then you have to cut the negative to
Speaker 2: fit the way you've edited the work print. So you
Speaker 2: pull the negative first from flash frame to flash frame,
Speaker 2: and then very carefully you spice it together. You match
Speaker 2: it to the workprint, and you cut off what you
Speaker 2: don't need. You never cut right close to what the
Speaker 2: number was on the workprint. And this young woman had
Speaker 2: accidentally done that. By the way, about fifty years later
Speaker 2: she contacted me. She said, I'm the person who did it,
Speaker 2: and I'm so sorry, And I said, no, don't be sorry.
Speaker 2: You gave me the greatest life in the world. Because
Speaker 2: you hadn't just cut that negative, I would never have
Speaker 2: met him. Oh my god. So it's a miracle. So
Speaker 2: you salvage. Marty's a student film, student film, right, and
Speaker 2: what did you make of him? Then?
Speaker 1: Well, it's a young so it's Marty. It was in college, right.
Speaker 2: Well, all of us knew from one particular student film,
Speaker 2: collag Just You, Murray, which is filled with incredible ideas,
Speaker 2: that he had it. It was very clear he had it.
Speaker 2: What was it that he had? Storytelling on films, Prittian ideas,
Speaker 2: startling ideas. For example, it's not just you Murray starts
Speaker 2: with somebody's shoes and a hand comes into frame and
Speaker 2: he encourages the camera to lift up to his face.
Speaker 2: It was, I mean, just unbelievable, great, great ideas. So
Speaker 2: then what happened was a group of us got together
Speaker 2: and we were making films for PBS, short films covering
Speaker 2: Aretha Franklin concerts and helping fellow filmmakers finish their films.
Speaker 2: And one of them was Marty's Who's That Knocking? His
Speaker 2: first feature film, which he had shot part of and
Speaker 2: had run out of money, and so we volunteered our
Speaker 2: efforts to help him finish it. And then he taught
Speaker 2: me how to edit on that movie. I knew nothing
Speaker 2: about editing, nothing, so I was on the crew as
Speaker 2: we were trying to help him finish it, and we
Speaker 2: all did everything. We pushed the wheelchair that had the
Speaker 2: cameraman in it because we didn't have dollies. We ran sound.
Speaker 2: I would get lunch. I learned to tie into power
Speaker 2: sources in the basement. People said to me, bend your
Speaker 2: legs because if you get the jolt, you'll fall down
Speaker 2: and it'll break the contact. And I drove the car
Speaker 2: with the cameraman on the front effort and again for
Speaker 2: a tracking shot. It was great.
Speaker 1: It was I think it was the Cone Brothers. I
Speaker 1: could be wrong. I was reading an article about raising
Speaker 1: Arizona and they were saying how their improvisations with the
Speaker 1: camera led to like certain names. They have things called
Speaker 1: the blankie can, and if you wanted the camera to
Speaker 1: have the point of view of the dog that was
Speaker 1: attacking you, they would lay the cinematagaphy operator on a
Speaker 1: blanket and pull him across the lawn and he'd be
Speaker 1: right on the heels of the victim.
Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody was doing them. I mean, now you know Napoleon,
Speaker 2: the great film by a Belgass, a silent film. He
Speaker 2: had small cameras that he threw. He had people throw
Speaker 2: them over the wall of this fortress to give the
Speaker 2: idea of what a cannon ball would be like going
Speaker 2: into a fortress. So it was the point of view
Speaker 2: of the cannonbridge. So people, you know, people were inventing
Speaker 2: all of these things all along in film.
Speaker 1: Coming up the one piece of work that Schoonmaker considers
Speaker 1: the perfect film to hear another voice behind some of
Speaker 1: Hollywood's biggest films. Check out my interview with former Walt
Speaker 1: Disney CEO Michael Eisner. Today, he still prefers movie theaters
Speaker 1: to a private screening room.
Speaker 4: I almost only go to the theater. I go at least.
Speaker 2: Twice a week. And what do you do?
Speaker 4: I often go at ten o'clock or midnight. Can't drag
Speaker 4: my wife out. Usually I'll go in the afternoon. I
Speaker 4: can remember even being at ABC when I was twenty
Speaker 4: seven years old and having a fight with somebody and saying,
Speaker 4: you know what, I'm getting out of here and go
Speaker 4: to Broadway and go to a movie.
Speaker 1: Take a listen at Here's the Thing dot org. This
Speaker 1: is Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's the Thing.
Speaker 1: Initially studying to become an international diplomat. Algerian born Thelma
Speaker 1: Schoonmaker's life took an interesting turn in the late nineteen
Speaker 1: sixties when she met Martin Scorsese, then a sleep deprived
Speaker 1: film student. The partnership changed her life, eventually leading her
Speaker 1: to Michael Powell, a cinematic mastermind in his own right,
Speaker 1: whom she'd marry in nineteen eighty four. But before love
Speaker 1: came work with Marty, as she called Scorsese, driving the train.
Speaker 2: He taught me how to build a scene, how to
Speaker 2: when to use close ups, when not to use close ups,
Speaker 2: how to learn what's good acting, how to build rhythm
Speaker 2: between two actors.
Speaker 1: He's never in a position where the actress he's working
Speaker 1: with don't deliver what he wants. He gets the actress
Speaker 1: he wants, or he doesn't make the film.
Speaker 2: Yes, he casts impeccably, but there are good and weaker performances,
Speaker 2: you know. So one of my jobs is to make
Speaker 2: sure we're using the very best and you wean down
Speaker 2: and weaned down.
Speaker 1: Is your technique to that as well? Avoid close up
Speaker 1: some people you think are less truthful or oh.
Speaker 2: No, no, I mean usually you can always with him.
Speaker 2: He knows he shoots until he gets what he needs.
Speaker 2: He knows what he needs. Particularly as an editor, he
Speaker 2: knows what he needs. Less. The people are weak than that.
Speaker 2: Just other people dazzle you. Well, some yeah, I mean
Speaker 2: some actors it's take one.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Other actors work towards something. For example, Marty and de
Speaker 2: Niro did fifteen takes on the last scene in Raging Bull,
Speaker 2: where DeNiro is confronting himself as Jake Lamata in the
Speaker 2: mirror and he's doing the on the waterfront speech. They
Speaker 2: wanted to do fifteen takes because they were trying different
Speaker 2: ways of him confronting himself actually giving himself. And I
Speaker 2: thought one take was more emotional. I like that, but
Speaker 2: Marty liked another one that was colder, and so we
Speaker 2: screened it two ways with friends of ours and he
Speaker 2: was right. So that's the kind of thing. So it
Speaker 2: doesn't mean Some actors like Daniel de Lewis or Kate
Speaker 2: Blanchett are often like take one, that's it. They're come
Speaker 2: in so prepared, so they're living that part. Other actors
Speaker 2: like to work towards it. Leo and Bob like to
Speaker 2: work towards something with Marty. So it's a matter of
Speaker 2: just trying to get the best and then seeing is
Speaker 2: that working with what's the best and the other actor
Speaker 2: maybe it's not, so you have to change something. It's
Speaker 2: very difficult to describe editing. You've made that clear, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean so one of the first things he would
Speaker 2: have taught me is how not to go to close
Speaker 2: ups too quickly, that two shots are sometimes just as good.
Speaker 2: But that's a very simple thing. I mean, there's so
Speaker 2: much that's about rhythm and pace and.
Speaker 1: Letting it breathe. Oh yeah, watching the people feel and
Speaker 1: go through it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And Marty wants people to, particularly with a film
Speaker 2: like Silence, which is so different from what's being done today.
Speaker 2: He wants people to engage with the movie and make
Speaker 2: up their own mind about what they're seeing, not be
Speaker 2: told what to think. He hates that one filmmakers tell
Speaker 2: you what to think. A lot of that goes on today.
Speaker 2: So one of the things he wanted in Silence was
Speaker 2: to not have any score at all, because he felt
Speaker 2: the score might be telling people what to think. Eventually,
Speaker 2: we do have a very subliminal score which comes out
Speaker 2: of cicadas and things, and there are a few times
Speaker 2: where you hear a piece of music up front, but
Speaker 2: normally you don't because he did not want to tell
Speaker 2: them what to think. He wants them to feel it
Speaker 2: and make up their own mind. And after people see Silence,
Speaker 2: they say they talk about it for two weeks because
Speaker 2: there's so many big questions that are raised there about
Speaker 2: doubt and faith that it provokes that kind of thought,
Speaker 2: which is what he wanted. That's all he wanted. The
Speaker 2: movie opens Silence.
Speaker 1: Yes, it's very quiet, if you will. Nonetheless, it's a
Speaker 1: sequence of torture. It's a sequence of Liam Neesen, you know,
Speaker 1: watching the side. I want to ruin the film for people.
Speaker 1: But something horrific is happening. And you've edited some films
Speaker 1: that are these spectacularly violent films. Now, now I've seen
Speaker 1: films that are more graphic. I'm not saying that they're
Speaker 1: graphic by many means. I've seen movies that are far
Speaker 1: more graphic and far more or less effective as a
Speaker 1: result of it. Yes, that's never been an issue for you,
Speaker 1: where every time you sat there and said, my god,
Speaker 1: this is tough to watch.
Speaker 2: Well, the thing is you see that we create that
Speaker 2: violence in the editing room. There's no way that de
Speaker 2: Niro could take an actual punch. All the times you
Speaker 2: see it in the film. When he was being hit
Speaker 2: in the head, there was no hand in the glove
Speaker 2: and so was his head was being nudged in blood
Speaker 2: and saliva would spray off it. But there's no way
Speaker 2: he could have taken all that punished. So our job
Speaker 2: is to make sure that we make it look as
Speaker 2: if he took that hit. It's not actually violent. When
Speaker 2: I get it, I make it violent with Marty. Let
Speaker 2: me just say first that I think Marty's use of
Speaker 2: violence is very important because there is, as we know,
Speaker 2: living in this particular time, tremendous violence around the world.
Speaker 2: And if you think there isn't, you're kidding yourself. If
Speaker 2: you can show it properly without being gratuitous, and I
Speaker 2: don't think he ever is, it's important that it be
Speaker 2: part of the films he particularly makes. He grew up
Speaker 2: in a very violent neighborhood. He grew up in a
Speaker 2: neighborhood where the mafia would tell people take your children
Speaker 2: off the street at three o'clock and so, and someone
Speaker 2: would be gunned down on the street and the kids
Speaker 2: would go back and play again. So he saw a
Speaker 2: lot of that It is something he grew up with
Speaker 2: and he understands very deeply. But I must tell you
Speaker 2: that few see. For example, in Casino, Joe Pesh put
Speaker 2: somebody's head in the vice with the eye bulging right.
Speaker 2: That's all takes an enormous amount of editing to make
Speaker 2: that believable. Of course that never really happens. But I
Speaker 2: do remember we had one screening where it was I
Speaker 2: think like Ovitz and two other people, somebody from the
Speaker 2: studio and maybe Marty's agent, another agent, and Marty and
Speaker 2: I were sitting behind them. They were all wearing blue suits,
Speaker 2: and when that came up, the first shot of that
Speaker 2: eye and the vice came up, they all went, oh
Speaker 2: my god, and their arms went back in sync over
Speaker 2: their heads. And Marty said to me, how many more
Speaker 2: shots of this do we have? I said five, and
Speaker 2: he went, oh, I look, so we cut that down.
Speaker 2: But it's never violent. When I get.
Speaker 1: It, was there one sequence violence or no, just in
Speaker 1: terms of action, the pacing, the intention. Give us an
Speaker 1: example of a scene that was a particularly difficult one
Speaker 1: for you to cut, a real challenge.
Speaker 2: I think sometimes films need to be restructured, and for example,
Speaker 2: Departed needed to be restructured. Even Kundun we had to
Speaker 2: pull up the Chinese invasion it was taking too long.
Speaker 2: So the restructuring is sometimes very important in a movie.
Speaker 2: But also Silence was very hard for me because to
Speaker 2: get the right meditative pace without being boring was very important.
Speaker 2: And it was very interesting to try and incorporate the
Speaker 2: Japanese actors style of acting with the westerners. So they're
Speaker 2: all hard in different ways, but I can't think of
Speaker 2: one that was really no, particularly not the violence, because
Speaker 2: Marty storyboards it very carefully, so putting it together is
Speaker 2: not that hard. Making it believable is hard. You know,
Speaker 2: when somebody throws a punch, they're actually missing the other
Speaker 2: actor's chin by half an inch so and the actor
Speaker 2: then snaps his head back to make it look so
Speaker 2: you have to get the right one of those. Sometimes
Speaker 2: he's too far away or whatever makes it believable. Is
Speaker 2: something that's part of my job more after the break.
Speaker 1: One of the things about it is I wonder during
Speaker 1: the arc of his career is how much producers in
Speaker 1: the studios.
Speaker 2: Try to interfere with the movie. He's making always right,
Speaker 2: so it remains that way we always but he's gained
Speaker 2: a great deal of control as the films go on.
Speaker 2: But we do get notes from the producers or the studio.
Speaker 2: More from the studio, actually not from the without naming names.
Speaker 1: Is there anyone he ever takes their counselors or a
Speaker 1: producer he's ever relied on for any information.
Speaker 2: Well, the great thing about Marty is he will listen,
Speaker 2: but he will not do anything that he has more
Speaker 2: conflicts with what he thinks is right. He will burn
Speaker 2: the film first, and I'm not kidding. Of course, it's
Speaker 2: a little hard to burn digital now, so it can
Speaker 2: be done. It can be done, but he will. I mean,
Speaker 2: I've seen him take that stand. But what happened is
Speaker 2: that he learned very early on to walk the tightrope
Speaker 2: between art and commerce very cleverly, because I think to
Speaker 2: a certain extent, you know, he said, I grew up
Speaker 2: in a neighborhood where power was around all the time,
Speaker 2: and I understand it. I know how to work it.
Speaker 2: He's been in situations, I think with taxi driverwhere he
Speaker 2: said he was going to kill the head of the studio.
Speaker 2: This is already documented by the Phillips, who were the producers.
Speaker 2: But now what he does is he knows how to
Speaker 2: talk them out of it, or you know, I get
Speaker 2: the notes first, and I only tell him anything I
Speaker 2: think that he should hear, and he will listen. But
Speaker 2: he also is able to defend his position extremely well,
Speaker 2: and I've seen him do it over and over again.
Speaker 2: One time I was with him and it was a
Speaker 2: subject matter that I'd done some research on by myself,
Speaker 2: and he thought I might be involved in this meeting,
Speaker 2: and somebody said, you know what we should do. We
Speaker 2: should take the plot of Gone with the Wind and
Speaker 2: insert it into this script. And I was just about
Speaker 2: to walk out of the room when I heard that,
Speaker 2: and Marty was brilliant. He said, well, that's a very
Speaker 2: good idea, George, but I couldn't make that movie, which
Speaker 2: was very kind. You know, he didn't, he wasn't in planmable. However,
Speaker 2: I've seen him also when he'll storm out, you know,
Speaker 2: just say it's your movie or mine. You take it,
Speaker 2: you put your name on it, I'm taking myne off.
Speaker 2: I've seen that happen several times. I've also seen him
Speaker 2: do something wonderful, which is to just wear them down
Speaker 2: by telling them long stories about gang chiefs that he
Speaker 2: knew in his neighborhood. There was one particular time where
Speaker 2: we were in a room where the air conditioning was
Speaker 2: very cold. No one had brought water in, and everyone
Speaker 2: was getting hungry. It was getting towards twelve, and he
Speaker 2: was going on in these long stories about crazy mafia guys,
Speaker 2: and finally he just wore. They just gave up. And
Speaker 2: his two agents were texting each other and one of
Speaker 2: them said, where is he going with this? He knew
Speaker 2: what he was doing.
Speaker 1: No, you have been married to filmmaking and editing and
Speaker 1: your famous counterpart for years.
Speaker 2: And years, and then you got married. Tell us about that.
Speaker 2: Where did you meet him? Well? Interestingly, because I had
Speaker 2: seen Life and Death of Colonel Blim, made by my
Speaker 2: husband Michael Powell when I was, you know, sixteen, and
Speaker 2: it stayed in my head. When Marty started educating me
Speaker 2: on Raging Bull, he started educating me about the films
Speaker 2: of palam Pressburger because he had just gone and found
Speaker 2: Michael Powell living in poverty and really forgotten. Unbelievable or
Speaker 2: was he He was in England in this little cottage
Speaker 2: I still own. The British Film Institute was trying people
Speaker 2: like Ian Christy Kevin goff Yates and even Bertram Tavernier
Speaker 2: and France were trying to revive the films, but Marty,
Speaker 2: with his high profile, was able to bring Michael to
Speaker 2: tell your ride re enter Peeping Tom into the New
Speaker 2: York Film Festival. It had never been properly distributed here
Speaker 2: and just revive the whole cannon. So that was going
Speaker 2: on then. It was a great miracle. But I saw
Speaker 2: Michael in front of audiences and see his films come
Speaker 2: back to life. It was heaven. I can't tell you.
Speaker 2: Marty was so dedicated to that, so he was educating
Speaker 2: me as we were cutting Raging Bull, and Michael Powell
Speaker 2: came over to the Museum of Modern Art did the
Speaker 2: first big retrospective on him in America. Marty said to me,
Speaker 2: I want you to go to the MoMA, not work,
Speaker 2: which was amazing. I go to the MoMA and look
Speaker 2: at the life and Death of Colonel Blimp and Michael
Speaker 2: Powell was there, and I went up to him and
Speaker 2: I said, I'm Marty's editor. But he was very distracted
Speaker 2: because I think he was thinking about the great love
Speaker 2: of his life, Debra Carr, who's in that movie. That's
Speaker 2: when they fell in love and then broke up after it.
Speaker 2: But then Marty said, he's coming to dinner. Would you
Speaker 2: like to meet him because you're so much in love
Speaker 2: with their movies now, And I said yes, And well,
Speaker 2: when I met him, I just fell in love with
Speaker 2: him immediately. He was so astounding. I wish you'd met him.
Speaker 2: He was an amazing human being and he didn't talk much,
Speaker 2: but when he said something, it was very interesting. And
Speaker 2: then he came back after the dinner. I was cutting
Speaker 2: Raging Bull in a bedroom in Marty's apartment where he
Speaker 2: was living with Isabella Rossellini. He had an extra bedroom
Speaker 2: and we had film wrecks in the bathtub in the
Speaker 2: adjoining bathroom. My husband thought that was one of the
Speaker 2: funniest things. He just roared when he saw that. So
Speaker 2: he came back to talk to me and we started
Speaker 2: having lunch, and then things developed and then we had
Speaker 2: to tell everybody. So he came to live with me
Speaker 2: in New York on King of Comedy and Isabella, Marty's
Speaker 2: wife at the time, Isabella Rossellini, came and said to me, Thelma,
Speaker 2: Michael should come live with us. There's no need for
Speaker 2: you to have to put him up in your hotel
Speaker 2: room here, and I said, well, I don't think you
Speaker 2: quite understand. I have to tell you we're actually living together. Oh,
Speaker 2: Marty will be so thrilled. Well, Marty of course was
Speaker 2: a bit stunned. Everybody was. I mean, there were thirty
Speaker 2: years different than us. But it didn't matter because Michael
Speaker 2: had the heart of a sixteen year old. So we
Speaker 2: had ten blissful years. But Marty, it was a shock
Speaker 2: for Marty because he knew then that I would maybe
Speaker 2: at certain times want to go home and cook dinner
Speaker 2: for Michael.
Speaker 4: It was.
Speaker 2: But another director. He loved having Michael with us, and
Speaker 2: it was such a wonderful friendship to watch. I can't
Speaker 2: tell you, and Michael had a great influence on our movie.
Speaker 1: Did your relationship wind up costing you any editing assignments
Speaker 1: with Marty?
Speaker 2: Did you ever miss any job?
Speaker 1: You've edited every one of Marty's movies, No, really exceptions.
Speaker 2: So we made Woodstock, and Marty left Woodstock early and
Speaker 2: went to bust In in Hollywood, and we finished Woodstock
Speaker 2: the mix of Woodstock out there. But we were not
Speaker 2: appreciated by the unions, and they didn't like the fact
Speaker 2: that New Yorkers because we were two separate editing unions
Speaker 2: at that point and they didn't like us being there.
Speaker 2: And then Marty wanted me to work with him, but
Speaker 2: the union said no because she's not in our union,
Speaker 2: and she's going to have to start as an apprentice
Speaker 2: for five years and then five years as an assistant
Speaker 2: and then she'll be allowed to I'd just been nominated
Speaker 2: for Woodstock for an Oscar, so I said, I'm not
Speaker 2: going to do it. So he couldn't work with me
Speaker 2: until Raging Bull, when Irwin Winkler, the producer, got me
Speaker 2: in the universe. So those films prior to Raging Bull
Speaker 2: were that they were Boxcar, Bertha, Mean Streets, Alice, New York,
Speaker 2: New York, and Taxi Driver. I didn't cut any of
Speaker 2: those movies. Who cut Taxi Driver? Marshall Lucas the three
Speaker 2: editors are actually working with him. Then Marcia Lucas, who's
Speaker 2: George Lucas's wife was at the time, so he had
Speaker 2: he was working with multiple editors and sometimes editors who
Speaker 2: did not want the director in the editing room. That's
Speaker 2: why he wanted to work with me again because he
Speaker 2: felt that.
Speaker 1: So that's was the impetus of your marriage, if you
Speaker 1: will with it, the two of.
Speaker 2: You, Yes, because he wanted you. What happened is that
Speaker 2: he felt that from the very beginning that I would
Speaker 2: be a collaborator and I wouldn't be ego. Battles over
Speaker 2: who's got the right idea about this cut or not,
Speaker 2: which who knows more about editing often happens between direct
Speaker 2: and editors, and that's very bad for a movie when
Speaker 2: that when they're fighting, and you've.
Speaker 1: Made very few movies with other A directors, You've only
Speaker 1: made a couple of correct Alison Anders, you did a
Speaker 1: movie with.
Speaker 2: Yes at Marty's request. He was executive producing it, so
Speaker 2: I helped with that. But then on Raging bull I
Speaker 2: was allowed to come back as long as there was
Speaker 2: a standby editor on both coasts. But still they terrorized
Speaker 2: us out there. If we were mixing, say until twelve
Speaker 2: o'clock at night, they would turn on the lights of
Speaker 2: our cars and the radio so that our batteries would
Speaker 2: be dead when we came out. That went on all
Speaker 2: the time. We had to get a bodyguard from Marty actually,
Speaker 2: and things like Raging bullshit on the Squirrel down the walls.
Speaker 2: But finally that ended, and now we're all one local,
Speaker 2: one happy local, and there's no problems like that anymore.
Speaker 1: Well, two things. One is roles for women in Marty's films.
Speaker 1: I mean, women have their place in Marty's films because
Speaker 1: they're you know, men or their protagonists and the women
Speaker 1: like in a Raging Bull or Casino. And then you
Speaker 1: see a movie like Age of Innocence where he's got
Speaker 1: a female lead in the film and one of the
Speaker 1: biggest stars of her day. Was it different for him
Speaker 1: to direct women or to develop roles for women in
Speaker 1: his films.
Speaker 2: I didn't sense that. I kind of like the women
Speaker 2: in those films. I mean, I think Kathy Moriarty is
Speaker 2: wonderful and Raging Bull when on a writer is absolutely
Speaker 2: stunning in Age of Interests. And I don't have a
Speaker 2: problem with the women Mary's films. I have a problem
Speaker 2: with them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he hasn't made a lot of films with female leads,
Speaker 1: is what they mean.
Speaker 2: And that's maybe that's not his daily Well I guess not.
Speaker 2: That's okay. Now.
Speaker 1: The last thing I want to ask you is there's
Speaker 1: so many facets to filmmaking. There's so many elements to filmmaking,
Speaker 1: not just the things that are camera centric, you know,
Speaker 1: like the lighting and the cutting, and but there's wardrobes
Speaker 1: and sets and actors and editing and pacing and stuff
Speaker 1: where there's so much that goes into it. What's a
Speaker 1: film that comes to mind of his when you think
Speaker 1: about that, all those aspects of making come together in
Speaker 1: your mind and just the sets and everything, and it's
Speaker 1: that painting.
Speaker 2: It's art. I always say, it's very hard because I
Speaker 2: hate to have to pick one, and I love them
Speaker 2: all for different reasons. But because working on Raging Bull
Speaker 2: was my first major feature film on a big Hollywood set,
Speaker 2: I didn't even know how to I'm location, I didn't
Speaker 2: know how to behave Fortunately I had an assistant it.
Speaker 2: I used to put my own trims away. Now I
Speaker 2: have three assistants, and it was weird. Marty said, don't worry,
Speaker 2: I'll help you through it. Don't worry. But for me,
Speaker 2: that movie was so astounding. When I saw the dailies,
Speaker 2: I just couldn't take my eyes off de Niro. It
Speaker 2: was such brilliant direction, such brilliant cinematography, the black and
Speaker 2: white cinematography, such brilliant acting, and improvisation. I love improvisation.
Speaker 2: It's very hard to cut, but I love it, and
Speaker 2: the challenge that de Niro and Patti gave me was amazing.
Speaker 2: It was the music, the use of music, the power,
Speaker 2: the strength of the movie all over made it the
Speaker 2: one that I think is actually the perfect film. And
Speaker 2: I screened it recently. I go to Seattle onto the
Speaker 2: Seattle Art Museum a lot to do show Michael Powell films,
Speaker 2: and that we screened a really good print from the Academy,
Speaker 2: a film print of Raging Bill, and I could not
Speaker 2: get over it was burned into the screen. It was
Speaker 2: just one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.
Speaker 2: So I have to say that that is over all
Speaker 2: the one that I think everything just clicked together in
Speaker 2: an amazing way. Do you know that?
Speaker 1: For me, the memories of Marty are all the things
Speaker 1: you say, that opening title sequence, the horror of him
Speaker 1: going into the jail cell and punching the wall. It's
Speaker 1: so you know that that man he was. He was
Speaker 1: like a sick animal, and I've known people like that.
Speaker 1: But my other favorite moment, because it's so opaque and
Speaker 1: it's so brilliantly weird, is that moment when de Niro
Speaker 1: tries to brush Lorraine down into that building.
Speaker 2: He's down there. It's down there. We go go on
Speaker 2: in there.
Speaker 1: Nothing's on the money, nothing said.
Speaker 2: That gesture, that hand gesture is just well, he's He's
Speaker 2: just amazing, you know. I mean, I could just look
Speaker 2: at that film over and over again and never get
Speaker 2: tired of it. It's because to watch him when he's
Speaker 2: questioning his brother, you know, about his wife. Oh my god.
Speaker 2: I mean the way Bob, what he did with his
Speaker 2: face there is just astounding. You know, nobody improvises like
Speaker 2: Bob and Joe Peshi together, they kick each other off
Speaker 2: in the most amazing ways that I love it. It's hard,
Speaker 2: but it's like putting a puzzle together, you know, and
Speaker 2: I love that.
Speaker 1: In a recent interview with The La Times, this course
Speaker 1: says he equated his Anthelma Schoonmaker's editing to a process
Speaker 1: so singular that it's quote.
Speaker 2: Almost like making home movies. Ut Lucky for us, they
Speaker 2: decided to share.
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you
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