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Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the

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Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. It's summer, and that means

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Speaker 1: it's time for our tradition that Here's the Thing where

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Speaker 1: the staff share their favorite episodes from our archives in

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Speaker 1: our Summer staff Picks series.

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Speaker 2: Next up is producer Victoria de Martin.

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Speaker 3: Thanks, Alec. One of my most formative experiences as a

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Speaker 3: filmmaker was editing my sixteen millimeters short film by hand

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Speaker 3: on a vintage Steinbeck. When I think of the legacy

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Speaker 3: of flatbed film editing, I immediately think of Thelma scoon Maker.

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Speaker 3: She is the woman behind the curtain for Martin Scorsese's films,

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Speaker 3: responsible for editing all of his films since Raging Bull.

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Speaker 3: Something I love about this conversation with Thelma is how

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Speaker 3: much insight she gives into her editing process and her

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Speaker 3: working relationship with Scorsese. The specificity to which Thelma can

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Speaker 3: recall the exact camera work of certain shots and which

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Speaker 3: dailies Marty liked and didn't like is incredible. Their working

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Speaker 3: relationship is a perfect marriage, and Thelma has become indispensable

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Speaker 3: to Scorsese since their first introduction, back when she volunteered

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Speaker 3: to help out a young film student whose film negative

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Speaker 3: had been cut wrong. This was a young Martin Scorsese

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Speaker 3: with her calm, thoughtful and precise demeanor. It's clear to me,

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Speaker 3: just from listening to this wonderful conversation, why Thelma Schoonmaker

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Speaker 3: is a legendary film editor.

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Speaker 1: Behind every good filmmaker is a brilliant editor, and Martin

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Speaker 1: Scorsese is no exception. His counterpart, Thelma Schoonmaker has edited

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Speaker 1: every film the cinematic giant has done since Raging Bull,

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Speaker 1: earning her three Academy Awards and seven nominations. For a

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Speaker 1: face and demeanor like your favorite grade school teacher, one

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Speaker 1: has to wonder how Schoonmaker has made it through editing

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Speaker 1: the epic violence of Scorsese's films. But however she does it,

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Speaker 1: it's working. She in Scorsese's forty plus years of collaborating

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Speaker 1: is widely considered to be one of the most successful

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Speaker 1: working carriages in movie history. But talented as Schoonmaker is,

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Speaker 1: editing films wasn't always the plan. Born to American parents

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Speaker 1: in Algiers in nineteen forty, Schoonmaker dreamed of becoming a

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Speaker 1: diplomat and working overseas, but fate intervened, and today, fresh

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Speaker 1: off editing score SSE's newest film, Silence, she looks back

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Speaker 1: on the moments that shaped her both as a filmmaker

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Speaker 1: and a person.

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Speaker 2: Something like Age of Innocence. We certainly had to slow

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Speaker 2: down and figure out how to reach a pace that

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Speaker 2: reflected nineteenth century New York with Kundun, which was one

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Speaker 2: of my favorites. I had to really learn a great

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Speaker 2: deal about Tibet itself, and also Marty wanted to know

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Speaker 2: how to shoot the sand mandala, which the monks make

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Speaker 2: for two weeks, this beautiful, beautiful thing they make with

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Speaker 2: just funnels of different colored sand, and then after two

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Speaker 2: weeks they wash it all away on the river. It's

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Speaker 2: unbelievable and it's really hard work work. So he wanted

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Speaker 2: to open Kundoom, which we did with very tight shots

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Speaker 2: of images of the mandola, and he wanted to know

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Speaker 2: what were the important ones for him to shoot. So

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Speaker 2: I had to learn about the san mandala. This was

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Speaker 2: before we started shooting. I'm usually not needed before shooting,

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Speaker 2: and so I got to go down and watch the

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Speaker 2: monks make this incredible sam mandala that was a lot

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Speaker 2: of fun learning about Tibet and becoming acquainted with these

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Speaker 2: wonderful Tibetans who were in the film because there weren't

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Speaker 2: there weren't actors, they were actually acting out what was

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Speaker 2: happening to them. That was a very extraordinary experience for me,

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Speaker 2: and I've remained a supporter of the cause and friends

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Speaker 2: with Tibetans ever since. So that was really world changing

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Speaker 2: for me. As this movie now, Silence has been for

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Speaker 2: me in what way it's made me think deeply about

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Speaker 2: my own faith and also to learn so much about

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Speaker 2: the people who are still Jesuits, for example, the the Order,

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Speaker 2: the fervor of that order is extraordinary to meet them.

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Speaker 2: And the advisors who came to help us on the

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Speaker 2: film were so amazing people. So I loved delving into

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Speaker 2: seventeenth century Japan. The Japanese actors themselves were so incredible.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't believe how wonderful they were. Even the extras.

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Speaker 2: You never had to worry about cutting away from a

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Speaker 2: shot because an extra wasn't paying attention or not doing

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Speaker 2: what they were supposed to do. Every single person who

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Speaker 2: came from Japan to work in that movie were so

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Speaker 2: dedicated and learning to edit. People speaking Japanese or Japanese

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Speaker 2: speaking a language that was not native to them was

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Speaker 2: very interesting too. But this film Silence has had the

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Speaker 2: same impact on me that kuldn't do and did.

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Speaker 1: When you talk about the sand Mandala and you coming

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Speaker 1: in early to discuss with him, then you know what

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Speaker 1: shots you might need or not need for the sequence,

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Speaker 1: but you say that you're not in involved in that

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Speaker 1: kind of composition. Typically you don't sit down with him

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Speaker 1: during the period of storyboards. Does he storyboard?

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Speaker 2: Oh, yes, he's storyboards. Now he tends to write on

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Speaker 2: the right side of the script the little image that

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Speaker 2: he wants. No, he designs all the camera work, always has,

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Speaker 2: and I'm not needed usually in the writing or any

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Speaker 2: designing of the film. So I come on when it

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Speaker 2: starts shooting, with the exception of Kundun.

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Speaker 1: Really, so when you come on when it starts shooting,

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Speaker 1: does he come to do you come to him? Because

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Speaker 1: I've seen this experience on films that I've made, where

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Speaker 1: with any director where the editor is sending messages to

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Speaker 1: them saying we could use this, we could use this angle.

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Speaker 2: I rarely have to do that with him because he

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Speaker 2: thinks things. He's a great editor, so he thinks like

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Speaker 2: an editor when he conceives of the movie. He usually

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Speaker 2: has an editing style on mine. Also when he writes

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Speaker 2: or co writes the movie and when he shoots it,

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Speaker 2: he's thinking like an editor. There are occasions where I

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Speaker 2: do ask for things. For example, in the drowning sequence

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Speaker 2: where Garupe played by Adam Driver drowns in silence. It

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Speaker 2: was very difficult shoot, very cold, and Adam was getting,

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Speaker 2: you know, hypothermia, and so I didn't feel I had

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Speaker 2: quite enough footage for the drowning sequence, particularly because the

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Speaker 2: stunt women in Taiwan were not sort of as tough

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Speaker 2: as maybe more experienced stunt women would be, and to

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Speaker 2: be shoved down under the water constantly was difficult for them.

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Speaker 2: So that was one of the few times in Taiwan.

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Speaker 2: On this incredible sequence where Rodriguez played by Adam Garfield

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Speaker 2: is made to watch Japanese Christians pushed off boats wrapped

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Speaker 2: in straw mats so that they will drown. It's a

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Speaker 2: terrifying sequence, and Marty shot it with three cameras, so

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Speaker 2: there wasn't a lot of control in that situation. And

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Speaker 2: he was very interesting and had an idea that he

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Speaker 2: wanted to show the horror of these people being pushed

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Speaker 2: off in the water from a wide shot, to show

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Speaker 2: the banality of it, like the banality of the way

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Speaker 2: the Nazis killed people. So it was very complicated shoot.

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Speaker 2: He was trying to get those wide shots, close ups

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Speaker 2: on Adam Garfield and cover Garupe and the other and

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Speaker 2: the Japanese Christians, and it was all happening simultaneous. It

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Speaker 2: was chaos, but so I was eventually able. We never

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Speaker 2: did get any additional footage, but I was able to

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Speaker 2: sort of make it work.

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Speaker 1: I think that should never a thought of going into

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Speaker 1: a tank or doing anything of a set.

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Speaker 2: There was some thought of that, but then we decided

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Speaker 2: not to so, but that's one of the few times

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Speaker 2: there are occasions when I asked for something. But he's

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Speaker 2: such a great editor, you know, he knows what he needs.

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Speaker 2: And my husband Michael Powell once said to him, you

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Speaker 2: don't need to do master shots cut into the center

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Speaker 2: of the scene. Don't do master shots. Marti Oni does

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Speaker 2: them now is rehearsal really so not that he doesn't

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Speaker 2: love wide shots. Keeps saying today with all the fast

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Speaker 2: cutting that's going on, whatever happened to the shot, the

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Speaker 2: shot that Stanley Kubrick would come up with.

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Speaker 1: Woody, Yeah, a lot of white shots, like five minutes.

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Speaker 2: You could watch this incredible shot and never be bored.

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Speaker 2: And now what's happened to it? He says, It's just vanished.

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Speaker 1: But I want to get back to when you're in

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Speaker 1: the editing room. Are you cutting a film together and

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Speaker 1: you start hearing music yourself? What's the inner life for

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Speaker 1: you when you're cutting a film?

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, the most important time for me

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Speaker 2: is when he looks at daily's now when he's looking

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Speaker 2: at dailies. I look at the footage first, as soon

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Speaker 2: as it comes in, to make sure there isn't something

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Speaker 2: missing or something wrong. Sometimes the camera in one of

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Speaker 2: the great shots in The Raging Bull, where it begins

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Speaker 2: on de Niro down in the basement of this enormous

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Speaker 2: stadium and he the steadycam camera is backing up in

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Speaker 2: front of him. It's an amazing tour to four shot.

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Speaker 2: Marty's referred take on that was ruined in the lab.

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Speaker 2: There was a claw that went off in the camera,

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Speaker 2: and so I had to go on the set and

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Speaker 2: tell him his favorite take with Ruin but fortunately we

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Speaker 2: had just as good ones. But what he does in

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Speaker 2: dailies is really fascinating. I wish that in a way

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Speaker 2: filmmakers could listen to him, because he's very, very tough

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Speaker 2: on himself, and he constantly talks to me during the dailies.

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Speaker 2: I like that. I don't like that. That's I think.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to get better on take seven. Don't ever

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Speaker 2: show me that to me again, burn that.

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Speaker 4: And so.

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Speaker 2: And I'm also telling him what I think. First of all,

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Speaker 2: he wants me to be a cold eye. He wants

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Speaker 2: me not to have been on the set and see

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Speaker 2: how they did something or hear from him what he's

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Speaker 2: going to do. He wants me to look at it

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Speaker 2: cold and tell him if it works. So that is

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Speaker 2: my part of my job. So I tell him what

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Speaker 2: I think, He tells me what he thinks, and from

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Speaker 2: those incredibly rich reactions of him, I then begin to

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Speaker 2: create selects, and then I do the first cut before

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Speaker 2: he comes in, when he's through shooting, and then from

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Speaker 2: that point on we do all the rest of the

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Speaker 2: twelve if we can get away with it, twelve different

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Speaker 2: edits of the movie together, very twelve different edits of

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Speaker 2: the movie that's what we prefer to do if we can.

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Speaker 2: Or is there a bible that dictates what those twelve are?

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Speaker 2: Is there a phrase? Do you have a manual?

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Speaker 1: Is there the film a Marty manual of that mentions

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Speaker 1: each twelve of those?

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Speaker 2: You know, what happens is that, you know, we don't

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Speaker 2: screen the first two or three cuts because we're still

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Speaker 2: trying to get the film in shape. But once we

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Speaker 2: start to screen with very few people, maybe twelve people

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Speaker 2: who are friends who we know will be honest, so

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Speaker 2: we does confer with other people. Oh yeah, well we debrief.

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Speaker 2: I mainly do most of the debriefing afterwards. So we

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Speaker 2: will screen with twelve people, say, then I debrief them

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Speaker 2: very heavily for two or three days. Then we do

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Speaker 2: the second cut, and we screen for more people, and

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Speaker 2: pretty soon we get up to two hundred, which I

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Speaker 2: can't debrief everybody. We do cards. Then we'd like to

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Speaker 2: if we have time to do twelve, because that's how

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Speaker 2: long it takes. You have to live with the movie.

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Speaker 2: People don't understand that I have to marinate it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you have to live with it and learn what it

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Speaker 2: wants and what it needs, and so all the editing

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Speaker 2: is just absolutely fascinating. You would love to be in

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Speaker 2: the room.

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Speaker 1: This is at work that you didn't necessarily, I wouldn't

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Speaker 1: say you fell into it, but you were certainly on

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Speaker 1: a different course for a while.

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Speaker 2: Definitely. You grew up where my mother and father met

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Speaker 2: in France. They were both Americans. They married there. My

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Speaker 2: older brother was born there in Paris, and then we

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Speaker 2: were transferred to Algeria and my mother crossed the Mediterranean Ocean.

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Speaker 2: She was carrying me at the time. I was born

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Speaker 2: in Algeria. But unfortunately the North African Invasion occurred where

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Speaker 2: all the Allies invaded to try and get rid of

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Speaker 2: the Nazis in other parts of Northern Africa, and so

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Speaker 2: we were evacuated. But my mother loved Algeria. She would

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Speaker 2: have loved to stay there. She was always out there.

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Speaker 1: Her dad was there because he was with shell oil,

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Speaker 1: a standard so yesh.

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Speaker 2: And then my father went to Aruba in the Caribbean,

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Speaker 2: and that's where I grew up with Well, yes, was that.

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Speaker 1: Like Aruba in the wartime in post war time?

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Speaker 2: Well, in the wartime were till fifty five, that's right,

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Speaker 2: and they were actually torpedoing. They were trying to knock.

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Speaker 2: The Germans were trying to knock out the refinery because

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Speaker 2: it was fueling the North African invasion, and so they

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Speaker 2: would lob torpedoes and also mortars in trying to hit

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Speaker 2: the oil tanks which were above where we were living.

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Speaker 2: So we were taken out every night, wrapped in blankets

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Speaker 2: and taken to the one building that was made of

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Speaker 2: stone and stay there. And I remember seeing the burning

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Speaker 2: tankers along the horizon. But eventually the Germans did not

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Speaker 2: take the island. And what happened was they'd brought all

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Speaker 2: kinds of Europeans, people from Australia, from all over the world.

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Speaker 2: So I grew up in a European atmosphere, which I loved.

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Speaker 2: So when I came back to the States, when my

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Speaker 2: father was transferred back to New York, it was a shock.

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Speaker 2: You got the bends. It was shocking, it was really

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Speaker 2: it was.

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Speaker 1: The most shocking thing for you. Nineteen fifty five.

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Speaker 2: You're in New York. Yeah, it was no New Jersey, Jersey.

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Speaker 2: So in a my father was commuting into New York.

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Speaker 2: So I was in Ridgewood, New Jersey, which was you know,

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Speaker 2: could parts of it were well off. We were not.

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Speaker 2: We were in the sort of poorer part of it.

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Speaker 2: But the thing that shocked me was the rigidity of

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Speaker 2: this sort of social code. If you weren't a cheerleader

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Speaker 2: or football player, you were nobody. And I was very

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Speaker 2: unused to that kind of thing. A tribal school and

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Speaker 2: also seemed very limited, although the education there was excellent,

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Speaker 2: But it wasn't until I went to Cornell University, where

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Speaker 2: I met a whole bunch of New York Jewish girls.

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Speaker 2: I was saved because they read books, they listened to

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Speaker 2: music like I did. I was and I just loved

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Speaker 2: being at Cornell. And you're a different plan. You were

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Speaker 2: going to study, well, I wanted to become a diplomat,

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Speaker 2: so I studied the Russian language. Is one of the

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Speaker 2: first Russian language courses in America because Sputnyk had just

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Speaker 2: gone up, so everyone was panicking, and so I studied

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Speaker 2: Russian and political science with some great, great teachers. And

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Speaker 2: then I went and took the Foreign Service Exam. That's

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Speaker 2: the exam, but they do a stress test with you afterwards,

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Speaker 2: where they have people from the CIA and other things

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Speaker 2: try and upset you as if you're at a reception

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Speaker 2: in South Africa. And they say, what would you say

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Speaker 2: if somebody said, what do you think about apartheid? I

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Speaker 2: said I would say it's terrible. And they said, well,

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Speaker 2: you can't say that until the government tells you. You

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Speaker 2: can say that. You were going to That's right, you're

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Speaker 2: going to be very unhappy here. You should go to

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Speaker 2: the USIA. But I didn't want to do that. I

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Speaker 2: don't know now the travel bug. What's the difference something?

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Speaker 2: You're right, I don't know. It's probably stupid of me.

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Speaker 2: On the other hand, So I went to work for

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Speaker 2: the first Peace Corps program at Columbia University. They were

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Speaker 2: going to see early on and then I saw something

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Speaker 2: in the New York Times, which never occurs, which said

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Speaker 2: willing to train assistant film editor.

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Speaker 1: No, no, wait, no, what the hell are you thinking?

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Speaker 2: Well, what was interesting was that there was this wonderful

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Speaker 2: program called Million Dollar Movie, which ran the same film

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Speaker 2: nine times, and Scorsese learned about so many films, but

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Speaker 2: particularly the films with Pool and Presburger. He would watch

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Speaker 2: them nine times until his mother said she was going

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Speaker 2: to kill him. And I was watching that same program.

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Speaker 2: I didn't even know that I was watching the Life

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Speaker 2: and Death of Colonel Bloom. So you were a movie watcher, Well,

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Speaker 2: I guess I was. I didn't know that that it

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Speaker 2: meant anything better. What were movies in your family? Well, yes,

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Speaker 2: I did see. My mother took me to see The

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Speaker 2: Rich Shoes in Aruba and at one point, but they

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Speaker 2: were a big movie that was your parents, not big ones, no,

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Speaker 2: but theater music. Well, yes, when my mother would have,

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Speaker 2: having lived in Paris, she loved all arts and she

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Speaker 2: taught me enormously about that, which was great, very interesting.

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Speaker 2: My brothers completely didn't go with it at all. They

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Speaker 2: hated it, and my mother and I whenever we would

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Speaker 2: see one of those signs on the side of the road,

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Speaker 2: you know that says revolutionary farmhouse or something, we would

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Speaker 2: immediately and they would go, oh no. And even to

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Speaker 2: this day, my brother won't go into a museum, whereas

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Speaker 2: the first thing I do, I go into a museum.

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Speaker 2: So my mother gave me all of that. I'm so grateful.

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Speaker 2: Even though she didn't want me watching television in the afternoon,

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Speaker 2: I did. And I remember that The Life and Death

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Speaker 2: of Colonel Bloom, which is still one of I think

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Speaker 2: my all time favorite of my husband's films, was seared

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Speaker 2: into my mind. I remember that, and I remember Hamlet

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Speaker 2: was pretty Olivier's Hamlet was pretty startling. But I just guess.

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Speaker 2: I saw this ad in the New York Times said

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Speaker 2: willing to train assistant filmmaker, and I thought, well, why

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Speaker 2: don't I just go see what this is like. So,

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Speaker 2: and it was this horrible man who was butchering the

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Speaker 2: films of Fellini Antonioni Truffaux for late night television and

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Speaker 2: on Roco and his brother Visconti's Great film. He took

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Speaker 2: out one entire reel. I said, you can't do that,

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Speaker 2: and he said, nobody's looking at these things at one

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Speaker 2: o'clock in the morning, but Marty was. And so it

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Speaker 2: was pretty appalling. But I did learn to cut negative

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Speaker 2: and I learned to put subtitles, so that was a

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Speaker 2: job you had to do that, Yeah, you do it.

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Speaker 2: And I learned to use a movie all which was

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Speaker 2: very helpful. Then I couldn't stand this guy anymore. And

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Speaker 2: I saw an ad and it said a six week

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Speaker 2: course at what was called Washington College, which became part

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Speaker 2: of NYU, and a six week course in filmmaking. So

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Speaker 2: I thought, well, if I quit, I just have enough

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Speaker 2: money to take that course. So I went to something

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Speaker 2: change while you had that tib you got the bug,

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Speaker 2: I guess, so I guess. So. So I get there

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Speaker 2: at this course and run by an incredible Armenian American

335
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Speaker 2: named Hagen Nugien. And when I first went down, I

336
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Speaker 2: was a little late, and I heard somebody screaming inside

337
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Speaker 2: the lecture hall. Turned out that's just the Waygnugen always talked.

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Speaker 2: And he was a wonderful support to Marty, and Marty

339
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Speaker 2: wasn't there. Then was well, Marty, no, this is how

340
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Speaker 2: I met him. So we go to this six weeks

341
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Speaker 2: course and they carve us up into ten ten people

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Speaker 2: for each little film. And the film I was on

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Speaker 2: was a documentary about harness racing, so boring. But at

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Speaker 2: the end of the six weeks, close to the end

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Speaker 2: of six weeks, the professor said, does anybody here know

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Speaker 2: how to cut negative or help Martin Scorcese because he's

347
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Speaker 2: made a student film and somebody has cut his negative wrong,

348
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Speaker 2: and so if there's anybody who can help him, And

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Speaker 2: I said, well, I'll try, you know, And I went

350
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Speaker 2: over and he had been up for two days editing

351
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Speaker 2: the movie, and he was completely zongkeed, but his eyes

352
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Speaker 2: were open, and so I started running the film on

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Speaker 2: the synchronizer and I said, well, you've lost six frames here,

354
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Speaker 2: maybe we can add them at the tail or. So

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Speaker 2: I helped him patch it back together.

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Speaker 1: But explain to people who don't know what do you

357
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Speaker 1: mean by negative cutting.

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Speaker 2: What happens is when you get a take, the camera

359
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Speaker 2: slows down and you get what's called a flash frame,

360
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Speaker 2: so a white four or five frames. You finish editing

361
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Speaker 2: your movie, then you have to cut the negative to

362
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Speaker 2: fit the way you've edited the work print. So you

363
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,400
Speaker 2: pull the negative first from flash frame to flash frame,

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Speaker 2: and then very carefully you spice it together. You match

365
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Speaker 2: it to the workprint, and you cut off what you

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Speaker 2: don't need. You never cut right close to what the

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00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:26,320
Speaker 2: number was on the workprint. And this young woman had

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Speaker 2: accidentally done that. By the way, about fifty years later

369
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Speaker 2: she contacted me. She said, I'm the person who did it,

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Speaker 2: and I'm so sorry, And I said, no, don't be sorry.

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Speaker 2: You gave me the greatest life in the world. Because

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Speaker 2: you hadn't just cut that negative, I would never have

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Speaker 2: met him. Oh my god. So it's a miracle. So

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Speaker 2: you salvage. Marty's a student film, student film, right, and

375
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Speaker 2: what did you make of him? Then?

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Speaker 1: Well, it's a young so it's Marty. It was in college, right.

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Speaker 2: Well, all of us knew from one particular student film,

378
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Speaker 2: collag Just You, Murray, which is filled with incredible ideas,

379
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Speaker 2: that he had it. It was very clear he had it.

380
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:09,920
Speaker 2: What was it that he had? Storytelling on films, Prittian ideas,

381
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,280
Speaker 2: startling ideas. For example, it's not just you Murray starts

382
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 2: with somebody's shoes and a hand comes into frame and

383
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,399
Speaker 2: he encourages the camera to lift up to his face.

384
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Speaker 2: It was, I mean, just unbelievable, great, great ideas. So

385
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,159
Speaker 2: then what happened was a group of us got together

386
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Speaker 2: and we were making films for PBS, short films covering

387
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Speaker 2: Aretha Franklin concerts and helping fellow filmmakers finish their films.

388
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Speaker 2: And one of them was Marty's Who's That Knocking? His

389
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Speaker 2: first feature film, which he had shot part of and

390
00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,119
Speaker 2: had run out of money, and so we volunteered our

391
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Speaker 2: efforts to help him finish it. And then he taught

392
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Speaker 2: me how to edit on that movie. I knew nothing

393
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Speaker 2: about editing, nothing, so I was on the crew as

394
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:00,159
Speaker 2: we were trying to help him finish it, and we

395
00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,280
Speaker 2: all did everything. We pushed the wheelchair that had the

396
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 2: cameraman in it because we didn't have dollies. We ran sound.

397
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Speaker 2: I would get lunch. I learned to tie into power

398
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Speaker 2: sources in the basement. People said to me, bend your

399
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Speaker 2: legs because if you get the jolt, you'll fall down

400
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:20,400
Speaker 2: and it'll break the contact. And I drove the car

401
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Speaker 2: with the cameraman on the front effort and again for

402
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Speaker 2: a tracking shot. It was great.

403
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Speaker 1: It was I think it was the Cone Brothers. I

404
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,639
Speaker 1: could be wrong. I was reading an article about raising

405
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Speaker 1: Arizona and they were saying how their improvisations with the

406
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 1: camera led to like certain names. They have things called

407
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Speaker 1: the blankie can, and if you wanted the camera to

408
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Speaker 1: have the point of view of the dog that was

409
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Speaker 1: attacking you, they would lay the cinematagaphy operator on a

410
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Speaker 1: blanket and pull him across the lawn and he'd be

411
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Speaker 1: right on the heels of the victim.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, everybody was doing them. I mean, now you know Napoleon,

413
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Speaker 2: the great film by a Belgass, a silent film. He

414
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 2: had small cameras that he threw. He had people throw

415
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Speaker 2: them over the wall of this fortress to give the

416
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Speaker 2: idea of what a cannon ball would be like going

417
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Speaker 2: into a fortress. So it was the point of view

418
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Speaker 2: of the cannonbridge. So people, you know, people were inventing

419
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Speaker 2: all of these things all along in film.

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Speaker 1: Coming up the one piece of work that Schoonmaker considers

421
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Speaker 1: the perfect film to hear another voice behind some of

422
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Speaker 1: Hollywood's biggest films. Check out my interview with former Walt

423
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Speaker 1: Disney CEO Michael Eisner. Today, he still prefers movie theaters

424
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Speaker 1: to a private screening room.

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Speaker 4: I almost only go to the theater. I go at least.

426
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Speaker 2: Twice a week. And what do you do?

427
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Speaker 4: I often go at ten o'clock or midnight. Can't drag

428
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Speaker 4: my wife out. Usually I'll go in the afternoon. I

429
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Speaker 4: can remember even being at ABC when I was twenty

430
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Speaker 4: seven years old and having a fight with somebody and saying,

431
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,119
Speaker 4: you know what, I'm getting out of here and go

432
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 4: to Broadway and go to a movie.

433
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: Take a listen at Here's the Thing dot org. This

434
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 1: is Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's the Thing.

435
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 1: Initially studying to become an international diplomat. Algerian born Thelma

436
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 1: Schoonmaker's life took an interesting turn in the late nineteen

437
00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,880
Speaker 1: sixties when she met Martin Scorsese, then a sleep deprived

438
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:38,239
Speaker 1: film student. The partnership changed her life, eventually leading her

439
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 1: to Michael Powell, a cinematic mastermind in his own right,

440
00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,480
Speaker 1: whom she'd marry in nineteen eighty four. But before love

441
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: came work with Marty, as she called Scorsese, driving the train.

442
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,399
Speaker 2: He taught me how to build a scene, how to

443
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,880
Speaker 2: when to use close ups, when not to use close ups,

444
00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 2: how to learn what's good acting, how to build rhythm

445
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 2: between two actors.

446
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: He's never in a position where the actress he's working

447
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,719
Speaker 1: with don't deliver what he wants. He gets the actress

448
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 1: he wants, or he doesn't make the film.

449
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 2: Yes, he casts impeccably, but there are good and weaker performances,

450
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 2: you know. So one of my jobs is to make

451
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 2: sure we're using the very best and you wean down

452
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 2: and weaned down.

453
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,879
Speaker 1: Is your technique to that as well? Avoid close up

454
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,960
Speaker 1: some people you think are less truthful or oh.

455
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 2: No, no, I mean usually you can always with him.

456
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 2: He knows he shoots until he gets what he needs.

457
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 2: He knows what he needs. Particularly as an editor, he

458
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 2: knows what he needs. Less. The people are weak than that.

459
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,400
Speaker 2: Just other people dazzle you. Well, some yeah, I mean

460
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 2: some actors it's take one.

461
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 1: You know.

462
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 2: Other actors work towards something. For example, Marty and de

463
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,680
Speaker 2: Niro did fifteen takes on the last scene in Raging Bull,

464
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 2: where DeNiro is confronting himself as Jake Lamata in the

465
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 2: mirror and he's doing the on the waterfront speech. They

466
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 2: wanted to do fifteen takes because they were trying different

467
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 2: ways of him confronting himself actually giving himself. And I

468
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 2: thought one take was more emotional. I like that, but

469
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 2: Marty liked another one that was colder, and so we

470
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 2: screened it two ways with friends of ours and he

471
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 2: was right. So that's the kind of thing. So it

472
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 2: doesn't mean Some actors like Daniel de Lewis or Kate

473
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,720
Speaker 2: Blanchett are often like take one, that's it. They're come

474
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 2: in so prepared, so they're living that part. Other actors

475
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 2: like to work towards it. Leo and Bob like to

476
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 2: work towards something with Marty. So it's a matter of

477
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 2: just trying to get the best and then seeing is

478
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,359
Speaker 2: that working with what's the best and the other actor

479
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 2: maybe it's not, so you have to change something. It's

480
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 2: very difficult to describe editing. You've made that clear, Yeah,

481
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 2: I mean so one of the first things he would

482
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: have taught me is how not to go to close

483
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 2: ups too quickly, that two shots are sometimes just as good.

484
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 2: But that's a very simple thing. I mean, there's so

485
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 2: much that's about rhythm and pace and.

486
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: Letting it breathe. Oh yeah, watching the people feel and

487
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: go through it.

488
00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. And Marty wants people to, particularly with a film

489
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 2: like Silence, which is so different from what's being done today.

490
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 2: He wants people to engage with the movie and make

491
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 2: up their own mind about what they're seeing, not be

492
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: told what to think. He hates that one filmmakers tell

493
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 2: you what to think. A lot of that goes on today.

494
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 2: So one of the things he wanted in Silence was

495
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,800
Speaker 2: to not have any score at all, because he felt

496
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 2: the score might be telling people what to think. Eventually,

497
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 2: we do have a very subliminal score which comes out

498
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 2: of cicadas and things, and there are a few times

499
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 2: where you hear a piece of music up front, but

500
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: normally you don't because he did not want to tell

501
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 2: them what to think. He wants them to feel it

502
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 2: and make up their own mind. And after people see Silence,

503
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 2: they say they talk about it for two weeks because

504
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 2: there's so many big questions that are raised there about

505
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 2: doubt and faith that it provokes that kind of thought,

506
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 2: which is what he wanted. That's all he wanted. The

507
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 2: movie opens Silence.

508
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,879
Speaker 1: Yes, it's very quiet, if you will. Nonetheless, it's a

509
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: sequence of torture. It's a sequence of Liam Neesen, you know,

510
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 1: watching the side. I want to ruin the film for people.

511
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: But something horrific is happening. And you've edited some films

512
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: that are these spectacularly violent films. Now, now I've seen

513
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: films that are more graphic. I'm not saying that they're

514
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: graphic by many means. I've seen movies that are far

515
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: more graphic and far more or less effective as a

516
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 1: result of it. Yes, that's never been an issue for you,

517
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 1: where every time you sat there and said, my god,

518
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: this is tough to watch.

519
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,199
Speaker 2: Well, the thing is you see that we create that

520
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:40,240
Speaker 2: violence in the editing room. There's no way that de

521
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 2: Niro could take an actual punch. All the times you

522
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 2: see it in the film. When he was being hit

523
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 2: in the head, there was no hand in the glove

524
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: and so was his head was being nudged in blood

525
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 2: and saliva would spray off it. But there's no way

526
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 2: he could have taken all that punished. So our job

527
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,199
Speaker 2: is to make sure that we make it look as

528
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 2: if he took that hit. It's not actually violent. When

529
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 2: I get it, I make it violent with Marty. Let

530
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 2: me just say first that I think Marty's use of

531
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 2: violence is very important because there is, as we know,

532
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 2: living in this particular time, tremendous violence around the world.

533
00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: And if you think there isn't, you're kidding yourself. If

534
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 2: you can show it properly without being gratuitous, and I

535
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 2: don't think he ever is, it's important that it be

536
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 2: part of the films he particularly makes. He grew up

537
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 2: in a very violent neighborhood. He grew up in a

538
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: neighborhood where the mafia would tell people take your children

539
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 2: off the street at three o'clock and so, and someone

540
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 2: would be gunned down on the street and the kids

541
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 2: would go back and play again. So he saw a

542
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 2: lot of that It is something he grew up with

543
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: and he understands very deeply. But I must tell you

544
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 2: that few see. For example, in Casino, Joe Pesh put

545
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 2: somebody's head in the vice with the eye bulging right.

546
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 2: That's all takes an enormous amount of editing to make

547
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 2: that believable. Of course that never really happens. But I

548
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 2: do remember we had one screening where it was I

549
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 2: think like Ovitz and two other people, somebody from the

550
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 2: studio and maybe Marty's agent, another agent, and Marty and

551
00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 2: I were sitting behind them. They were all wearing blue suits,

552
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 2: and when that came up, the first shot of that

553
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 2: eye and the vice came up, they all went, oh

554
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 2: my god, and their arms went back in sync over

555
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 2: their heads. And Marty said to me, how many more

556
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 2: shots of this do we have? I said five, and

557
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: he went, oh, I look, so we cut that down.

558
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 2: But it's never violent. When I get.

559
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: It, was there one sequence violence or no, just in

560
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 1: terms of action, the pacing, the intention. Give us an

561
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 1: example of a scene that was a particularly difficult one

562
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: for you to cut, a real challenge.

563
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 2: I think sometimes films need to be restructured, and for example,

564
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 2: Departed needed to be restructured. Even Kundun we had to

565
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 2: pull up the Chinese invasion it was taking too long.

566
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 2: So the restructuring is sometimes very important in a movie.

567
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 2: But also Silence was very hard for me because to

568
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 2: get the right meditative pace without being boring was very important.

569
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 2: And it was very interesting to try and incorporate the

570
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 2: Japanese actors style of acting with the westerners. So they're

571
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,280
Speaker 2: all hard in different ways, but I can't think of

572
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 2: one that was really no, particularly not the violence, because

573
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 2: Marty storyboards it very carefully, so putting it together is

574
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 2: not that hard. Making it believable is hard. You know,

575
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 2: when somebody throws a punch, they're actually missing the other

576
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 2: actor's chin by half an inch so and the actor

577
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 2: then snaps his head back to make it look so

578
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 2: you have to get the right one of those. Sometimes

579
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 2: he's too far away or whatever makes it believable. Is

580
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 2: something that's part of my job more after the break.

581
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: One of the things about it is I wonder during

582
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,960
Speaker 1: the arc of his career is how much producers in

583
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: the studios.

584
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 2: Try to interfere with the movie. He's making always right,

585
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 2: so it remains that way we always but he's gained

586
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 2: a great deal of control as the films go on.

587
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 2: But we do get notes from the producers or the studio.

588
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 2: More from the studio, actually not from the without naming names.

589
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: Is there anyone he ever takes their counselors or a

590
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,760
Speaker 1: producer he's ever relied on for any information.

591
00:31:37,000 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 2: Well, the great thing about Marty is he will listen,

592
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 2: but he will not do anything that he has more

593
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 2: conflicts with what he thinks is right. He will burn

594
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 2: the film first, and I'm not kidding. Of course, it's

595
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 2: a little hard to burn digital now, so it can

596
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 2: be done. It can be done, but he will. I mean,

597
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 2: I've seen him take that stand. But what happened is

598
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 2: that he learned very early on to walk the tightrope

599
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 2: between art and commerce very cleverly, because I think to

600
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 2: a certain extent, you know, he said, I grew up

601
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 2: in a neighborhood where power was around all the time,

602
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 2: and I understand it. I know how to work it.

603
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,760
Speaker 2: He's been in situations, I think with taxi driverwhere he

604
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 2: said he was going to kill the head of the studio.

605
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: This is already documented by the Phillips, who were the producers.

606
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: But now what he does is he knows how to

607
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 2: talk them out of it, or you know, I get

608
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 2: the notes first, and I only tell him anything I

609
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 2: think that he should hear, and he will listen. But

610
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 2: he also is able to defend his position extremely well,

611
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 2: and I've seen him do it over and over again.

612
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 2: One time I was with him and it was a

613
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 2: subject matter that I'd done some research on by myself,

614
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 2: and he thought I might be involved in this meeting,

615
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 2: and somebody said, you know what we should do. We

616
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 2: should take the plot of Gone with the Wind and

617
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 2: insert it into this script. And I was just about

618
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 2: to walk out of the room when I heard that,

619
00:32:57,520 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 2: and Marty was brilliant. He said, well, that's a very

620
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 2: good idea, George, but I couldn't make that movie, which

621
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 2: was very kind. You know, he didn't, he wasn't in planmable. However,

622
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 2: I've seen him also when he'll storm out, you know,

623
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 2: just say it's your movie or mine. You take it,

624
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 2: you put your name on it, I'm taking myne off.

625
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 2: I've seen that happen several times. I've also seen him

626
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 2: do something wonderful, which is to just wear them down

627
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 2: by telling them long stories about gang chiefs that he

628
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 2: knew in his neighborhood. There was one particular time where

629
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 2: we were in a room where the air conditioning was

630
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 2: very cold. No one had brought water in, and everyone

631
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 2: was getting hungry. It was getting towards twelve, and he

632
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 2: was going on in these long stories about crazy mafia guys,

633
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 2: and finally he just wore. They just gave up. And

634
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 2: his two agents were texting each other and one of

635
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 2: them said, where is he going with this? He knew

636
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 2: what he was doing.

637
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: No, you have been married to filmmaking and editing and

638
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: your famous counterpart for years.

639
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 2: And years, and then you got married. Tell us about that.

640
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 2: Where did you meet him? Well? Interestingly, because I had

641
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 2: seen Life and Death of Colonel Blim, made by my

642
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 2: husband Michael Powell when I was, you know, sixteen, and

643
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: it stayed in my head. When Marty started educating me

644
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 2: on Raging Bull, he started educating me about the films

645
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 2: of palam Pressburger because he had just gone and found

646
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 2: Michael Powell living in poverty and really forgotten. Unbelievable or

647
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 2: was he He was in England in this little cottage

648
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 2: I still own. The British Film Institute was trying people

649
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 2: like Ian Christy Kevin goff Yates and even Bertram Tavernier

650
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,600
Speaker 2: and France were trying to revive the films, but Marty,

651
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 2: with his high profile, was able to bring Michael to

652
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 2: tell your ride re enter Peeping Tom into the New

653
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,439
Speaker 2: York Film Festival. It had never been properly distributed here

654
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 2: and just revive the whole cannon. So that was going

655
00:34:56,320 --> 00:34:59,479
Speaker 2: on then. It was a great miracle. But I saw

656
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 2: Michael in front of audiences and see his films come

657
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,399
Speaker 2: back to life. It was heaven. I can't tell you.

658
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,720
Speaker 2: Marty was so dedicated to that, so he was educating

659
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: me as we were cutting Raging Bull, and Michael Powell

660
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 2: came over to the Museum of Modern Art did the

661
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 2: first big retrospective on him in America. Marty said to me,

662
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 2: I want you to go to the MoMA, not work,

663
00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 2: which was amazing. I go to the MoMA and look

664
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 2: at the life and Death of Colonel Blimp and Michael

665
00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 2: Powell was there, and I went up to him and

666
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: I said, I'm Marty's editor. But he was very distracted

667
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 2: because I think he was thinking about the great love

668
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 2: of his life, Debra Carr, who's in that movie. That's

669
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 2: when they fell in love and then broke up after it.

670
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 2: But then Marty said, he's coming to dinner. Would you

671
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 2: like to meet him because you're so much in love

672
00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 2: with their movies now, And I said yes, And well,

673
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 2: when I met him, I just fell in love with

674
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 2: him immediately. He was so astounding. I wish you'd met him.

675
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:54,239
Speaker 2: He was an amazing human being and he didn't talk much,

676
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:58,480
Speaker 2: but when he said something, it was very interesting. And

677
00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:00,600
Speaker 2: then he came back after the dinner. I was cutting

678
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 2: Raging Bull in a bedroom in Marty's apartment where he

679
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 2: was living with Isabella Rossellini. He had an extra bedroom

680
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 2: and we had film wrecks in the bathtub in the

681
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 2: adjoining bathroom. My husband thought that was one of the

682
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 2: funniest things. He just roared when he saw that. So

683
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:19,720
Speaker 2: he came back to talk to me and we started

684
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 2: having lunch, and then things developed and then we had

685
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 2: to tell everybody. So he came to live with me

686
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 2: in New York on King of Comedy and Isabella, Marty's

687
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 2: wife at the time, Isabella Rossellini, came and said to me, Thelma,

688
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 2: Michael should come live with us. There's no need for

689
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,040
Speaker 2: you to have to put him up in your hotel

690
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 2: room here, and I said, well, I don't think you

691
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,839
Speaker 2: quite understand. I have to tell you we're actually living together. Oh,

692
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 2: Marty will be so thrilled. Well, Marty of course was

693
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,720
Speaker 2: a bit stunned. Everybody was. I mean, there were thirty

694
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 2: years different than us. But it didn't matter because Michael

695
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 2: had the heart of a sixteen year old. So we

696
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,240
Speaker 2: had ten blissful years. But Marty, it was a shock

697
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 2: for Marty because he knew then that I would maybe

698
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 2: at certain times want to go home and cook dinner

699
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 2: for Michael.

700
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 4: It was.

701
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 2: But another director. He loved having Michael with us, and

702
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 2: it was such a wonderful friendship to watch. I can't

703
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 2: tell you, and Michael had a great influence on our movie.

704
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: Did your relationship wind up costing you any editing assignments

705
00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: with Marty?

706
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 2: Did you ever miss any job?

707
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: You've edited every one of Marty's movies, No, really exceptions.

708
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 2: So we made Woodstock, and Marty left Woodstock early and

709
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 2: went to bust In in Hollywood, and we finished Woodstock

710
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 2: the mix of Woodstock out there. But we were not

711
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 2: appreciated by the unions, and they didn't like the fact

712
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 2: that New Yorkers because we were two separate editing unions

713
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 2: at that point and they didn't like us being there.

714
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 2: And then Marty wanted me to work with him, but

715
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,560
Speaker 2: the union said no because she's not in our union,

716
00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 2: and she's going to have to start as an apprentice

717
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 2: for five years and then five years as an assistant

718
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,640
Speaker 2: and then she'll be allowed to I'd just been nominated

719
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 2: for Woodstock for an Oscar, so I said, I'm not

720
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 2: going to do it. So he couldn't work with me

721
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,080
Speaker 2: until Raging Bull, when Irwin Winkler, the producer, got me

722
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 2: in the universe. So those films prior to Raging Bull

723
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:19,399
Speaker 2: were that they were Boxcar, Bertha, Mean Streets, Alice, New York,

724
00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 2: New York, and Taxi Driver. I didn't cut any of

725
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,680
Speaker 2: those movies. Who cut Taxi Driver? Marshall Lucas the three

726
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:29,439
Speaker 2: editors are actually working with him. Then Marcia Lucas, who's

727
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 2: George Lucas's wife was at the time, so he had

728
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 2: he was working with multiple editors and sometimes editors who

729
00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 2: did not want the director in the editing room. That's

730
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 2: why he wanted to work with me again because he

731
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 2: felt that.

732
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 1: So that's was the impetus of your marriage, if you

733
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:46,160
Speaker 1: will with it, the two of.

734
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,600
Speaker 2: You, Yes, because he wanted you. What happened is that

735
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 2: he felt that from the very beginning that I would

736
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 2: be a collaborator and I wouldn't be ego. Battles over

737
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:56,120
Speaker 2: who's got the right idea about this cut or not,

738
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 2: which who knows more about editing often happens between direct

739
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 2: and editors, and that's very bad for a movie when

740
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 2: that when they're fighting, and you've.

741
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,239
Speaker 1: Made very few movies with other A directors, You've only

742
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: made a couple of correct Alison Anders, you did a

743
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:08,520
Speaker 1: movie with.

744
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 2: Yes at Marty's request. He was executive producing it, so

745
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 2: I helped with that. But then on Raging bull I

746
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 2: was allowed to come back as long as there was

747
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,440
Speaker 2: a standby editor on both coasts. But still they terrorized

748
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,319
Speaker 2: us out there. If we were mixing, say until twelve

749
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 2: o'clock at night, they would turn on the lights of

750
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,479
Speaker 2: our cars and the radio so that our batteries would

751
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 2: be dead when we came out. That went on all

752
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 2: the time. We had to get a bodyguard from Marty actually,

753
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,760
Speaker 2: and things like Raging bullshit on the Squirrel down the walls.

754
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 2: But finally that ended, and now we're all one local,

755
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 2: one happy local, and there's no problems like that anymore.

756
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 1: Well, two things. One is roles for women in Marty's films.

757
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: I mean, women have their place in Marty's films because

758
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: they're you know, men or their protagonists and the women

759
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: like in a Raging Bull or Casino. And then you

760
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 1: see a movie like Age of Innocence where he's got

761
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: a female lead in the film and one of the

762
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: biggest stars of her day. Was it different for him

763
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: to direct women or to develop roles for women in

764
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 1: his films.

765
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 2: I didn't sense that. I kind of like the women

766
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 2: in those films. I mean, I think Kathy Moriarty is

767
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 2: wonderful and Raging Bull when on a writer is absolutely

768
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 2: stunning in Age of Interests. And I don't have a

769
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 2: problem with the women Mary's films. I have a problem

770
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 2: with them.

771
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, he hasn't made a lot of films with female leads,

772
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 1: is what they mean.

773
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 2: And that's maybe that's not his daily Well I guess not.

774
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:39,359
Speaker 2: That's okay. Now.

775
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:40,959
Speaker 1: The last thing I want to ask you is there's

776
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: so many facets to filmmaking. There's so many elements to filmmaking,

777
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 1: not just the things that are camera centric, you know,

778
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 1: like the lighting and the cutting, and but there's wardrobes

779
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:53,919
Speaker 1: and sets and actors and editing and pacing and stuff

780
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 1: where there's so much that goes into it. What's a

781
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: film that comes to mind of his when you think

782
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: about that, all those aspects of making come together in

783
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 1: your mind and just the sets and everything, and it's

784
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:05,280
Speaker 1: that painting.

785
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 2: It's art. I always say, it's very hard because I

786
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 2: hate to have to pick one, and I love them

787
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 2: all for different reasons. But because working on Raging Bull

788
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 2: was my first major feature film on a big Hollywood set,

789
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 2: I didn't even know how to I'm location, I didn't

790
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 2: know how to behave Fortunately I had an assistant it.

791
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 2: I used to put my own trims away. Now I

792
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 2: have three assistants, and it was weird. Marty said, don't worry,

793
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 2: I'll help you through it. Don't worry. But for me,

794
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 2: that movie was so astounding. When I saw the dailies,

795
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 2: I just couldn't take my eyes off de Niro. It

796
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 2: was such brilliant direction, such brilliant cinematography, the black and

797
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 2: white cinematography, such brilliant acting, and improvisation. I love improvisation.

798
00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: It's very hard to cut, but I love it, and

799
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,480
Speaker 2: the challenge that de Niro and Patti gave me was amazing.

800
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 2: It was the music, the use of music, the power,

801
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 2: the strength of the movie all over made it the

802
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 2: one that I think is actually the perfect film. And

803
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 2: I screened it recently. I go to Seattle onto the

804
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 2: Seattle Art Museum a lot to do show Michael Powell films,

805
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 2: and that we screened a really good print from the Academy,

806
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 2: a film print of Raging Bill, and I could not

807
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 2: get over it was burned into the screen. It was

808
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 2: just one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen.

809
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,680
Speaker 2: So I have to say that that is over all

810
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 2: the one that I think everything just clicked together in

811
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:31,440
Speaker 2: an amazing way. Do you know that?

812
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,640
Speaker 1: For me, the memories of Marty are all the things

813
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:39,480
Speaker 1: you say, that opening title sequence, the horror of him

814
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 1: going into the jail cell and punching the wall. It's

815
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,239
Speaker 1: so you know that that man he was. He was

816
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 1: like a sick animal, and I've known people like that.

817
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 1: But my other favorite moment, because it's so opaque and

818
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: it's so brilliantly weird, is that moment when de Niro

819
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: tries to brush Lorraine down into that building.

820
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 2: He's down there. It's down there. We go go on

821
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 2: in there.

822
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 1: Nothing's on the money, nothing said.

823
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 2: That gesture, that hand gesture is just well, he's He's

824
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:19,759
Speaker 2: just amazing, you know. I mean, I could just look

825
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 2: at that film over and over again and never get

826
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:24,399
Speaker 2: tired of it. It's because to watch him when he's

827
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 2: questioning his brother, you know, about his wife. Oh my god.

828
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 2: I mean the way Bob, what he did with his

829
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:36,120
Speaker 2: face there is just astounding. You know, nobody improvises like

830
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 2: Bob and Joe Peshi together, they kick each other off

831
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 2: in the most amazing ways that I love it. It's hard,

832
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 2: but it's like putting a puzzle together, you know, and

833
00:43:45,800 --> 00:43:46,399
Speaker 2: I love that.

834
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:53,479
Speaker 1: In a recent interview with The La Times, this course

835
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: says he equated his Anthelma Schoonmaker's editing to a process

836
00:43:57,800 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 1: so singular that it's quote.

837
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,759
Speaker 2: Almost like making home movies. Ut Lucky for us, they

838
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: decided to share.

839
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is brought to you

840
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:20,320
Speaker 1: by iHeart Radio.