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Speaker 1: This episode of the Chuck Podcast is brought to you

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Speaker 1: I'm constantly working on this for years myself, and here's

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Speaker 1: an opportunity for you to take matters into your own

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Speaker 1: hands as well. All right, hello there, welcome to the

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Speaker 1: Wednesday episode of the Chuck Podcast. And as we like

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Speaker 1: to say in electioneers, if it's Wednesday, it means somebody

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Speaker 1: voted somewhere on Tuesday. Obviously, the big Tuesday story was Illinois. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and I appreciate those that followed look that to me,

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Speaker 1: the story of Illinois is something I'm going to get

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Speaker 1: into further actually on Tomorrow's on the on the Thursday

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Speaker 1: episode of the podcast, which is I think we are

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Speaker 1: going to look at Illinois as the as the as

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Speaker 1: the shining example of what's wrong with politics today and

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Speaker 1: how money has become too influential on this because what's

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Speaker 1: sort of distressing about what happened in Illinois on Tuesday

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Speaker 1: night is the fact that the story is about the

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Speaker 1: super PACs and the interest groups and which interest groups

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Speaker 1: went are lost, not anything about like the candidates were secondary.

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Speaker 1: And this is a it's one of those we have

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Speaker 1: we have We've somehow crossed some threshold that has made

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Speaker 1: candidates themselves a secondary feature of a political campaign, which

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Speaker 1: tells you something is way out of whack. And the

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Speaker 1: fact that we sort of deal with this in a

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Speaker 1: such normalizing way is very distressing. So uh, look, there's

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Speaker 1: and and and as important as that story is, I

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Speaker 1: do want to spend a lot more time on it

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Speaker 1: in tomorrow's episode, But let me give you a quick

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Speaker 1: rundown of what we got for today, obviously, because I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to overdo the election results business with Illinois,

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Speaker 1: because I hope many of you tuned into the live

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Speaker 1: stream and Crystal is and I earlier on Wednesday broke

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Speaker 1: it down on his podcast, and normally we tape on Mondays.

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Speaker 1: But this week because of my travels, Yes, I went

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Speaker 1: to the wbc UH second semi final and that was amazing. Actually,

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Speaker 1: I want to share share that experience with you in

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Speaker 1: a few minutes as well. But let me do the

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Speaker 1: quick rundown of what I got going on today. We've

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Speaker 1: got to look we the there's there's one story that

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Speaker 1: matters in American altics right now. It's the war with Ron.

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Speaker 1: It is in some ways dictating everything, and it is

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Speaker 1: you can already actually see some political impacts in ways

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Speaker 1: that people haven't noticed yet, and I will point those

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Speaker 1: out to you. But you know, welcome to the well.

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Speaker 1: I called it quicksand. He's in quicksand, and he's in quicksand,

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Speaker 1: and he's in a Chinese finger trap. And the more

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Speaker 1: he tries to pull away, the more he's getting He's

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Speaker 1: getting sucked into both traps. On that one. My guest

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Speaker 1: today is Amy Littlefield, and she is the author of

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Speaker 1: a book called Killers of Roe and what she did.

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Speaker 1: It's you could, on one hand say, oh, it's a

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Speaker 1: history of the abortion rights movement for the last fifty years,

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Speaker 1: from the decision of Row to the overturning of it.

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Speaker 1: With Dobbs, but she did it in a unique way,

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Speaker 1: and she sort of used the murder mystery frame, if

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Speaker 1: you will. She admittedly is an Agatha Christie junkie, and

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Speaker 1: I encourage everybody should go through an Agath at Christie

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Speaker 1: stage if you're a reader. They're wonderful books. I went

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Speaker 1: through my stage and plowed through five or so. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's like you find a murder mystery author and you

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Speaker 1: just go crazy. I did that with Elmore Lennard, and

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Speaker 1: I've done that with various ones. You just sort of

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Speaker 1: go in and you end up bringing like five of

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Speaker 1: one author. Or there's like my friend Daniel Silva, who

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Speaker 1: I just can't wait for every year when he comes

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Speaker 1: out with a new Gabriel and non adventure. So I

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Speaker 1: get it. And so in many ways, she says she

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Speaker 1: it's the influence of an Agatha Christie mystery novel sort

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Speaker 1: of looking who are the suspects Killers of Roe? It's

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Speaker 1: called and it is, you know it is. The suspects

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Speaker 1: are not just those that were against the Roe decision,

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Speaker 1: but those that were trying to support it as well.

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Speaker 1: So it is a fascinating analysis and investigation into sort

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Speaker 1: of the fifty years of reproductive rights and how they

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Speaker 1: went away on that front. So we will have that

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Speaker 1: discussion as well. And then after I've got it, yesterday

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Speaker 1: was the Illinois primary. So what do I have for

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Speaker 1: you in my top five list, my top five all timers?

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Speaker 1: And let me tell you, Illinois is, shall we say,

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Speaker 1: extraordinarily rich with content when it comes to interesting, crazy,

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Speaker 1: controversial campaigns, whether for the Senate, for governor. This is

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Speaker 1: a state that has given us to presidents and foreign

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Speaker 1: prison governors, right, so it is to say it could

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Speaker 1: be the wild West at times in Illinois is an understatement.

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Speaker 1: And there's also crazy stuff about Chicago politics and all

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Speaker 1: sorts of things, so that you will enjoy. We'll have

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Speaker 1: some Q and A. But we got to begin with

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Speaker 1: what's happening with the Iran war and the danger of

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Speaker 1: Mission Creep. And I know I continue to make this,

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Speaker 1: but I think something We're in the middle of something

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Speaker 1: here that is really disturbing, which is we are watching

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Speaker 1: in real time the unraveling of America's place as leader

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Speaker 1: of the free world. And I know that sounds a bit,

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Speaker 1: you know, apocalyptic that I'm saying this, but it's happening

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Speaker 1: in real time. His attack on NATO. Where's NATO? NATO?

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Speaker 1: I asked for their help with the straight of horn moves,

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Speaker 1: the President said, and there's no NATO to be found.

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Speaker 1: And you know, the the this war is going to

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Speaker 1: be known for military precision. And so there's you know

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Speaker 1: this is you know the complaints that are coming from

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Speaker 1: those that support this war. Well, the media is not focused.

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Speaker 1: They are only focused on all the stuff that's you know,

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Speaker 1: not going well. But the military campaign itself is going, yes,

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Speaker 1: it is. But the soft power side, the diplomatic side,

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Speaker 1: the getting silent, making sure the American people know what

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Speaker 1: we're doing, Preparing the American people for something that may

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Speaker 1: be unpopular, that may be a bit of a hit

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Speaker 1: to the economy, lining up allies in advance planning for

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Speaker 1: these things. Gutting of the State Department of its soft

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Speaker 1: power agencies like USAID and the US Information Agency only

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Speaker 1: made it that much harder for you to have diplomatic

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Speaker 1: success following military success. And so this is the classic.

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Speaker 1: He has opened a Pandora's box, and we now know

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Speaker 1: all the reasons why a bunch of previous presidents who

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Speaker 1: would have loved to have eradicated the world of this

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Speaker 1: Iranian theocracy didn't do it because there were certain things

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Speaker 1: they could do to make this an incredibly costly war.

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Speaker 1: And we're now seeing what it is that kept Bush

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Speaker 1: from doing this, that kept Obama from doing this, that

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Speaker 1: kept Biden from doing this, that kept Trump the first

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Speaker 1: time from doing this. But we've got a situation now

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Speaker 1: with this president where there's a few things we have

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Speaker 1: to be concerned about. Concern number one is he is

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Speaker 1: not being told the truth this resignation by a very

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Speaker 1: controversial figure in his own right, Joe Kent as head

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Speaker 1: of the National counter Terrorism Center. This is an extraordinarily

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Speaker 1: important agency, and it became much more important following nine

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Speaker 1: to eleven. And you know, there was a lot of

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Speaker 1: concern when the decision was made to put him in

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Speaker 1: this job. This was somebody who has spoused some extremist

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Speaker 1: views on the right, questionable views about Jewish people, a

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Speaker 1: lot of flirting with the white supremacist alt right, and

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Speaker 1: he was being put in charge of this and yet

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Speaker 1: so whatever, So that's who he is. But he was

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Speaker 1: a Senate confirmed appointment that in some ways should be

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Speaker 1: in the room in theory when presidents make these decisions.

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Speaker 1: And what's been interesting is that when he announced his

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Speaker 1: resignation over the war and basically blaming the Israel lobby,

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Speaker 1: which is a frustrating anti Semitic trope. But I will

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Speaker 1: set that. I'm going to put a pin in that

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Speaker 1: here for a minute. What we learned here is that

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Speaker 1: in some ways, you know, with the statement by Telsea Gabbert,

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Speaker 1: Joe Kent's boss, who I'm surprised is still there and

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Speaker 1: hasn't resigned. Remember her whole rationale for supporting Trump over

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Speaker 1: Harris and Biden was all due to it was Harris

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Speaker 1: and Biden that we're going to take America into it

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Speaker 1: into a war with Iran. It turns out she is

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Speaker 1: now the head of the She's the director of national

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Speaker 1: intelligence for the presidential administration that made the choice to

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Speaker 1: go to war with Iran. And this is a war

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Speaker 1: of choice and war of choices. Just ask Vladimir Putin

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Speaker 1: how a war of choice is going for him. You

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Speaker 1: may be able to decide when to start a war,

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Speaker 1: but who you're going to war against gets a say

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Speaker 1: in the matter as well. And we're learning a little

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Speaker 1: bit more, and I think that it's important to note

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Speaker 1: Tulsa Gabbert's statement sort of in reaction to the resignation

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Speaker 1: of Joe Kent and how she's walking a line here,

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Speaker 1: and I think it gets it to the concern we

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Speaker 1: all should have that our president the commander in chief

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Speaker 1: and everybody's president. At the moment, he is representing the

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Speaker 1: United States of America and he's making these decisions. You

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Speaker 1: may not like it, but he is our president. Is

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Speaker 1: either not being told the truth or people are afraid

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Speaker 1: to tell him things that he doesn't want to hear.

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Speaker 1: But I want to read this statement from Tulsea Gabbard

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Speaker 1: in full from Tuesday on a post that she put

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Speaker 1: on X First of all, that starts this, Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: was overwhelmingly elected by the American people to be our

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Speaker 1: president and commander in chief. Well, already we are starting

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Speaker 1: off with a bullshit line overwhelming He did not get

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Speaker 1: fifty percent. It's funny to me to watch all these

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Speaker 1: people and I saw political did this the other day

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Speaker 1: due called twenty twenty four landslide. It's not a landslide

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Speaker 1: if you can't win a majority of the popular vote.

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Speaker 1: It's not a landslide if you don't get the four

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Speaker 1: hundred electoral votes. Folks, Okay, no, president has won a

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Speaker 1: landslide in the twenty first century. No, not Barack Obama

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Speaker 1: in twenty oh eight, and he had the largest victory

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Speaker 1: of anybody in the twenty first century. But I digress,

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Speaker 1: because but this gas lighting of the American people, I saw,

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Speaker 1: like I said, I saw a straightforward newsletter in Politico

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Speaker 1: that knowing in the wake of the of Donald Trump's

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four landslide, I'm like, what does anybody understand

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Speaker 1: the definition of political landslide anymore? Please? All right? Ronald

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Speaker 1: Reagan won a landslide in eighty four, George H. W.

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Speaker 1: Bush won a landslide in eighty eight, Richard Nixon won

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Speaker 1: one in seventy two, LBJ one one in sixty four.

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Speaker 1: Bill Clinton never won a landslide, George W. Bush never

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Speaker 1: won a landslide, and certainly a guy who's never won

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Speaker 1: fifty percent of the vote, Donald Trump has never won

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Speaker 1: a landslide. Okay, But I'm going to continue more from

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Speaker 1: Tulsea Gabber. As our commander in chief, he is responsible

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Speaker 1: for determining what is and what is not an threat. Interesting,

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Speaker 1: So it is not experts in the field. It is

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Speaker 1: the president, and solely the president who decides what's an

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Speaker 1: imminent threat that's according to this and whether or not

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Speaker 1: to take action he deems necessary to protect the safety

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Speaker 1: and security of our troops, the American people in our country.

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Speaker 1: The Office of the Director of National Intelligence is responsible

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Speaker 1: for helping coordinate and integrate all intelligence to provide the

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Speaker 1: President and commander in chief with the best information available

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Speaker 1: to inform his decisions. After carefully reviewing all the information

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Speaker 1: before him, President Trump concluded that the terrorist Islamic regime

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Speaker 1: in Iran posed an aminute threat, and he took action

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Speaker 1: based on that conclusion. I have to tell you, man,

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Speaker 1: this statement's amazing for everything it is trying to do. Right,

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Speaker 1: Tulsa Gabbert is desperately trying to signal that she does

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Speaker 1: not believe in this war without saying she does not

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Speaker 1: believe in the rationale for this war. She wants to

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Speaker 1: keep her job. She's clearly made that decision, and she

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Speaker 1: knows that there's an audience of one that she's got

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Speaker 1: to do. But the fact that she is straining so hard, right,

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Speaker 1: it took three paragraphs for her to explain that it's

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Speaker 1: the president who decides what's an aminent threat or not.

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Speaker 1: So it sounds like she would not believe if she

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Speaker 1: thought it was an inminent threat, she would have said so.

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Speaker 1: But she did not make the choice to say it now,

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Speaker 1: did she. So she is clearly trying to have her

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Speaker 1: cake and eat it too. She's no doubt when she

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Speaker 1: leaves office she's going to say I never stood by

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Speaker 1: that thing. I never viewed it as an a minute threat.

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Speaker 1: But he did. So we all see where, by the way,

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Speaker 1: where it's pretty early to be in the CYA stages

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Speaker 1: of war planning, but we are in the CYA stage,

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Speaker 1: not necessarily CIA, but CYA. And if you need help

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Speaker 1: knowing what that is, just you know, that's urban dictionary stuff,

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Speaker 1: go figure that out. But we are in the CYA.

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Speaker 1: And this is a clear CYA material because it sounds

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Speaker 1: like Telsea Gabbard respects the decision Joe Kent make. But

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Speaker 1: what's clear? And I remember during the run up to

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Speaker 1: the war itself and the decision that was made, a

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Speaker 1: lot of people were asking, well, what where what is

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Speaker 1: Tulsa Gabbard thing? Is she in the room? Right? This

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Speaker 1: is somebody who essentially staked her entire political reputation on

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Speaker 1: being convinced it was the Democrats that were going to

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Speaker 1: start a war with Iran, not the Republicans, and so

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Speaker 1: just the heir, she was trying to justify her bizarre

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Speaker 1: flip flop and you know, to pay no attention to

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Speaker 1: her potentially being you know, compromised by other international entities.

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Speaker 1: Then instead she was just concerned about a president that

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Speaker 1: might start an open ended war. Well, welcome to the

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Speaker 1: open ended war. And she now works for the president

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Speaker 1: that she claimed wasn't going to do that. But here

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Speaker 1: we are. And there's a few things about this Joe

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Speaker 1: Kent resignation, right, this is look, this is somebody who

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Speaker 1: was not qualified for the position anyway, Trump gave it

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Speaker 1: to him, almost as a thumb in your eye to

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Speaker 1: the intelligence community. This was a pope right putting Tulsea

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Speaker 1: Gabbert and Joe Kent there was done to send a

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Speaker 1: message to the to the sort of the non part

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Speaker 1: of intelligence community, that I have no respect for what

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Speaker 1: you do, and we're going to put a couple of

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Speaker 1: incredibly semi crazy skeptics in charge of you. And yet

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Speaker 1: the president had no intention of ever having these people

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Speaker 1: in a room. And so I look at the Kent

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Speaker 1: resignation through the following. There's a variety of ways. First

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Speaker 1: of all, he's a fascinating Rosa test. Right, you can

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Speaker 1: read his statement and if you know nothing about it,

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Speaker 1: and you you know, whatever your personal views are, you

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Speaker 1: can apply it to your feelings about him. Right, if

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Speaker 1: you're frustrated by all the you know, the the the

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Speaker 1: anti Semites that are trying to use Israel as an

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Speaker 1: excuse to say they're not anti Semitic, and how they're

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Speaker 1: and how they're phrasing some of these things, you can

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Speaker 1: do that if you want to say, see even Joe

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Speaker 1: Kent thinks there was no rationale for war, you can

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Speaker 1: do that, right, whatever it is he can provide in

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Speaker 1: some ways, I think people's reaction into Kent and the resignation,

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Speaker 1: particularly in the political space, will tell you more about

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Speaker 1: the point of view that person has not necessarily anything

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Speaker 1: to do with Kent, but it is going to be

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Speaker 1: I think everybody's gonna be curious the first time he

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Speaker 1: does an interview and talks about what evidence did you

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Speaker 1: see and what was out there? What are the terrorist

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Speaker 1: threats and so on and so forth. But like Marjorie Taylor, great,

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Speaker 1: you know, there were some members of the Trump coalition

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Speaker 1: that believed what he said. There were some people like

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Speaker 1: Joe Kent, who aligned himself with the with the far right,

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Speaker 1: sort of xenophobic wing of the Republican Party and saw

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Speaker 1: a fellow traveler, Donald Trump. You know, Marjorie Taylor Green

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Speaker 1: has said you know that, you know, she heard what

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Speaker 1: Trump said and really and felt like, oh, he's thinking

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Speaker 1: what I'm thinking. He's saying what I believe. And then

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Speaker 1: when he doesn't practice what he says, right, And this

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Speaker 1: is Donald Trump's been doing this forever. That's what many

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Speaker 1: of us tried to tell a lot of people over

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Speaker 1: the last ten years. It said, Donald Trump just tells

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Speaker 1: anybody what they want to hear in the moment in

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Speaker 1: order to make his sale or in order to get

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Speaker 1: him to vote for you, or whatever it is. And

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Speaker 1: he's done it. And he put together a unique coalition, right,

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Speaker 1: It's been an uncomfortable coalition. And we're starting to see

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Speaker 1: what happens when you make decisions, right. You see little

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Speaker 1: we've seen little pieces of evidence when he made the

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Speaker 1: decision to be bought off by the tech companies and

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Speaker 1: not do not actually go after big, big tech in

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Speaker 1: ways that he promised, or certainly it was implied through

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Speaker 1: the bann and wing of that MAGA movement right who

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Speaker 1: was just as focused at getting going after big tech

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Speaker 1: as the left was. And he's protecting the AI industry

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Speaker 1: with trying to prevent any regulation that has cost him

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Speaker 1: some support among some in his magabase. Starting this war

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Speaker 1: has cost him more support there. So this is I

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Speaker 1: look at Ken in one way as he might just

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Speaker 1: simply be a true believer. You don't have to agree

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Speaker 1: with him. You may find his political views vile, you

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Speaker 1: may find his views about Israel and Jews and race

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Speaker 1: in America to be terrible, but he believed them and

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Speaker 1: he aligned with a movement that he thought and he

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Speaker 1: also didn't believe in more military adventurism. And suddenly he

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Speaker 1: feels let down. And that's what you do in a

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Speaker 1: presidential administration. Right. We had a pretty high profile State

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Speaker 1: Department official during the Biden administration who resigned over the

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Speaker 1: over Joe Biden's gossip policy. And it was a big

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Speaker 1: deal then. And it's the right thing to do if

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Speaker 1: you can't, if you can't serve a president on a

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Speaker 1: specific issue, and you're kind of charged to do it.

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Speaker 1: And in this case, the head of the Center and

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Speaker 1: counter terrorism. Right, he's now got to monitor the incoming

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Speaker 1: and there is an increased amount of incoming threats potential

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Speaker 1: threats thanks to this decentralized network by the IRGC that

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Speaker 1: is basically declared open season on Western assets, and there's

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Speaker 1: a lot more concern. This is the things that I

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Speaker 1: think the president. Among the many things the president has

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Speaker 1: not done for the public is prepare the public for

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Speaker 1: the fact that we are now less secure today than

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Speaker 1: when this Iran war started. We know that his goal

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Speaker 1: is to he thinks eradicating this regime and preventing them

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Speaker 1: from getting nuclear weapons will make us safer, and maybe

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Speaker 1: he's right, but it's not making us safer right now.

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Speaker 1: We are now less safe. And oh, by the way,

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Speaker 1: everything costs more because of this war, and ultimately that

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Speaker 1: may be how he gets punished politically, not over the inconsistency,

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Speaker 1: not over the hypocrisy of more wars, but simply that

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Speaker 1: he's presiding over an economy that is now in world

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Speaker 1: shape because of his decision to launch the Iran war.

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Speaker 1: But this resignation is not a small deal. It's a

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Speaker 1: big deal because it's yet I mean, how many more

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Speaker 1: little you know this is his coalition has been fracturing

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Speaker 1: now for a good six months, and we've watched it.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things I like to tell people is,

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Speaker 1: you know, everybody's got a line on Trump. And I

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Speaker 1: think you've heard me say this, but not every Trump

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Speaker 1: doesn't cross the line at the same time. For everybody,

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Speaker 1: your line on when you walked away from Trump may

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Speaker 1: have been a lot sooner than the line that I did,

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Speaker 1: or the line that somebody else did, or the line

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Speaker 1: that Liz Cheney did, the line that air Adam Kingsinger, right,

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Speaker 1: we know the line for John Bolton, the line for

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Speaker 1: Mike Pence, the line for John Kelly. You know, one

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Speaker 1: of the things you learn about Trump over the years

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Speaker 1: is that eventually he alienates everybody around him, every single

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Speaker 1: person not relate to him, and maybe he alienates those

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Speaker 1: related to him too. But I'm you know, family dynamics.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's got weird family drama. So I don't I actually

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Speaker 1: want it. I'm going to kind of minimize that a

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Speaker 1: little bit, but I will go more in the profession.

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Speaker 1: He has done it his entire I went through this

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Speaker 1: every six day years. He has to get a new

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Speaker 1: set of advisors because He's literally alienated everybody around him.

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Speaker 1: This is what he does. Just look at the how

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Speaker 1: few people from term one came over with term two? Yes,

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Speaker 1: a few did. But I think we have one of

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Speaker 1: the more underreported stories about Trump two point zero is

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Speaker 1: how few Trump one point zero saffers who they chose

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Speaker 1: not to go. They he would have taken him. Don't

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Speaker 1: think he wouldn't. There was something he didn't want. I

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Speaker 1: get that, but there were plenty that he would have

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Speaker 1: loved to have come back. And they're like, I ain't

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Speaker 1: riding that rollercoaster again, and so they have chosen not

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Speaker 1: to do it. It says a lot. And I think

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Speaker 1: that this is what we're seeing, is that we continue

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Speaker 1: you to see a slow erosion. And I describe it.

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Speaker 1: I've always described it as a river bed. Every day

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Speaker 1: you look at it and maybe it doesn't look like

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Speaker 1: it's eroded that much, and then you're gonna wake up

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Speaker 1: in November and go, what happened to Republican turn out?

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Speaker 1: That's the potential situation he's in. This episode of The

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430
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431
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432
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 1: and sixty five day returns quints dot com slash chuck.

433
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: Now let's go to the ward so and this issue

434
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: it is traded corners. So we've got a granting president,

435
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: very upset. He's like begging, now China to come help.

436
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 1: This would be interesting. So he wants NATO to. He

437
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: wanted NATO to get involved in basically secured as straight

438
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 1: of Horm moves. Now he's asking for other countries. How

439
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,359
Speaker 1: maybe he gets help from China to do this. And

440
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 1: his argument is, hey, China needs this oil as much

441
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:26,600
Speaker 1: as anybody needs it factause the whole world needs, say,

442
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 1: the straight of Horm moves to be a place for

443
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 1: safe passage for shipping period. It doesn't matter whether you're

444
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,639
Speaker 1: a country that's allied with the United States, that you

445
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: are the United States, or that you're an adversary of

446
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 1: the United States. Everybody needs this shipping lane open. Now

447
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: one thing about the United States has been and this

448
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: is where we this is where and I want America

449
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,479
Speaker 1: to be the world's beat cop, particularly in the oceans. Okay,

450
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 1: and that's what I do. Expect this to help keep

451
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 1: shipping lanes open. That that's what we do. It doesn't

452
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: sound but it sounds like the President was so dismissive

453
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:08,959
Speaker 1: of the warnings about the straight of horm moves. And

454
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,120
Speaker 1: this was always the geographic advantage. And so many analysts

455
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: about Iran I've pointed this out. This was always their

456
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 1: sort of I don't want to call it a get

457
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 1: out of jail free card, but this is what has

458
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 1: prevented an attempt to decapitate this regime by previous presidents.

459
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: It's the fact that they can. And now Trump's learning

460
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: this himself. It doesn't take much for them to louse

461
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 1: it up. Right, By the way, loos is a word

462
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: we don't use enough. It's nice to bring it back.

463
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 1: If Trump wants to bring back the sword, God bless them.

464
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:46,120
Speaker 1: Let's lost things up. And that's the point, right, And

465
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: now you've got a regime headed up by the son

466
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: of the former Supreme Leader who has no incentive to

467
00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 1: cut a deal with the United States, and what deal

468
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: with the United States, Israel, or anybody in the region.

469
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: What deal could you cut with this regime that kept

470
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: the regime in place and made you feel safe and secure.

471
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 1: So I don't know how he walks away from this,

472
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: And I was unseeing it earlier on Tuesday and on

473
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 1: Casey Hunt Show, and Casey Hunt had Liam Pennant, a

474
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 1: former Defense secretary, former head of the CIA, and she

475
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: was just asking him tactically what would it take to

476
00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 1: secure the Straight and he basically said, look, we can

477
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 1: do this, but it's probably going to take boots on

478
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: the ground. I mean, you can't just do this with

479
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: airpower and naval power. You're going to have to clear

480
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: the coastlines, right, And this is what's so I think

481
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: scary about the decision to start this war is how

482
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 1: easily this mission you're going to get mission create. And

483
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: this was always the concern about trying to do this.

484
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: And here we are no intent of ever sending ground troops,

485
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:58,440
Speaker 1: but now you have to secure the straight of hormones.

486
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: And now Trump's in a situation where he's alienated a

487
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: big chunk of the America's allies. Right, a normal president,

488
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: what we've already we've seen examples of this. Bush one

489
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: and Bush two went out of their way to get

490
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:16,439
Speaker 1: allies bought in in advance, not after the fact, but

491
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 1: you do it in advance. H Bush one had had

492
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 1: more success than Bush two did in keeping allies on board.

493
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:26,920
Speaker 1: But you know what Bush two didn't do. He didn't

494
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: go out of his way to alien eate NATO or

495
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: alien eight countries that didn't get on board. He just

496
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 1: gave more love to the countries that were on board.

497
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 1: One of my favorite you know, don't forget you forgot

498
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: Poland a response one time in an interview he did

499
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: when somebody was questioning the lack of sort of of

500
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: an alliance in the Iraq War, and he says, hey,

501
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 1: you forgot Poland. But the point was there was an effort,

502
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: right and you have to do these things. And now

503
00:28:56,720 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 1: what Panetta was explaining is that we may we did

504
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: not leave ourselves the flexibility to put together the forces

505
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: we need immediately to keep this straight open. And so

506
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 1: now we've got you know, we've got to move things.

507
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: This is why it may be that he's begging for

508
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: outside help because we don't have the resources in place

509
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: in the moment to do this, not unless you're going

510
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: to do ground troops, and even if it's a limited

511
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: number of ground troops, it is what's probably going to

512
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 1: be necessary. So now he's in this, he's boxed himself

513
00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: in and this and you're going to get a version

514
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: of Vietnam syndrome here potentially, which is well if you

515
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: walk away. Now the regime stays in place. The Straight

516
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: is weaponized by this regime. They know that their days

517
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: are You know that they're never going to be accepted

518
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 1: into the community of the Middle East. So there's always

519
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: going to be a threat of terrorism or a threat

520
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,080
Speaker 1: of this. So there's going to be constant concern and

521
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:03,600
Speaker 1: it will gradually raise the price of everything. If you

522
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: pull out, you kind of weirdly, even though you may

523
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,640
Speaker 1: had a massive tactical victory, it'll look like retreat and defeat.

524
00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 1: If the regime stays in place and you cut some

525
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: uncomfortable deal and just hoping that they'll keep the straight

526
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 1: open because you've somehow agreed to keep the regime in

527
00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,240
Speaker 1: place after you have made this big effort to try

528
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:25,719
Speaker 1: to topple the regime, and then say, oh no, this

529
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: wasn't about regime change, you know, or you're in or

530
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 1: you have the mindset that you're in for a dime,

531
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 1: in for a dollar, right, which is what happened early

532
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: in the early parts of Vietnam. And that's the concern here, right,

533
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 1: And this is the you know, this is why Chinese

534
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: finger trap. There's no good answer here, and he's boxed

535
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: America in it is there is every outcome, every potential

536
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,000
Speaker 1: idea can lead to a bad outcome for the United States,

537
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: either short term or long term. But what we've really

538
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: done and the biggest sort of development over the last

539
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:04,479
Speaker 1: seventy two hours, there is a confirmation that we we

540
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: are we are alone. We are alone in this one.

541
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 1: And it's because of everything he did over the last

542
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 1: particularly over the last year and a half in alienating

543
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: our allies, alienating NATO, alienating the EU, I mean, the

544
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,920
Speaker 1: whole thing with Greenland, and now here we are and

545
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: now he's got the uncomfortable decision what does he do.

546
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: He's got to get out of this thing. But he

547
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: can't just walk me. You know, he's the one that

548
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 1: like created the situation that's put the straight Orfom moves

549
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: into this into a critical situation where we are stuck,

550
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: and our economy is potentially the global economy is stuck

551
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: dealing with this choke point. And it's his it was,

552
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: you know, it's his fault. You know, he started it,

553
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:59,719
Speaker 1: so he's got to finish it. It's a it is.

554
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: This is more than just his personal legacy. His personal

555
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 1: legacy is toast right. This is other than you know,

556
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: the kindest thing you're being able to say about his

557
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 1: presidency is said it was consequential. That word's going to

558
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: be doing a lot of work for a lot of

559
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: people who are going to try to sound not trying

560
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: to make a judgment of whether this was a good

561
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: or a bad presidency. It was a consequential one. It's

562
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: been an MRI, that's for sure, for a lot of

563
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 1: people and a lot of entities and a lot of things.

564
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 1: But this is, this is this has the potential to

565
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: be as epically bad for America's reputation, America's ability to

566
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: execute both soft and hard power and build alliances. This

567
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,120
Speaker 1: is going to be as damaging, if not more damaging,

568
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: if we're not careful than Vietnam in the Second rap

569
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: War and this situation, he's in nothing but bad options.

570
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 1: But you know, I think he is stuck with the

571
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 1: pottery barn roll here. He broke it and he's going

572
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: to have to fix it. He broke the straight he's

573
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: going to have to fix it, and we're now stuck

574
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: having to do this alone. Now if we commit to it,

575
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: my guess is other countries eventually will help. Perhaps the

576
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: Gulf States will help pay for it at least, But

577
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 1: we need some real diplomacy here. We haven't had any.

578
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: We've had very We've had the lack of diplomacy right.

579
00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 1: The gutting of USAID, the gutting of these things put

580
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: us in this terrible situation. And I don't know, you know,

581
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: I think other countries will help us out because they

582
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: have their own economic interest to protect, and in some

583
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: ways Trump's counting on this, but ultimately we've got to

584
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:51,239
Speaker 1: go first, and we're going to have to do this.

585
00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 1: And I have a and you know, I I'm not

586
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: saying he should. I'm just not sure what other choice

587
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: he's going to have because he's so alienated the rest

588
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,399
Speaker 1: of the world with this and if the oh, and

589
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,440
Speaker 1: I don't know how we should feel if the outcome

590
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: is the US and China doing this in a joint

591
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 1: operation Together, which is weirdly kind of looks like what

592
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:26,839
Speaker 1: he's sort of kind of trying to propose. So this,

593
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: you know, everything else is small potatoes at the moment

594
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 1: in our political world. This is going, this is this

595
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 1: is going to this is defining the political weather for

596
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 1: the campaigns. This is everything at the moment. And there's

597
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: no doubt in my mind he's trying to find a

598
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 1: way out of this. And the fact in the matter

599
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:55,120
Speaker 1: is he may have boxed himself in and now he's

600
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,960
Speaker 1: got more political problems with this resignation, which only opens

601
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 1: up more wounds on his populist right. It's not great

602
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,040
Speaker 1: for Jews in America because you're going to continue to

603
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:15,760
Speaker 1: have this sort of this caricature painted of support for Israel.

604
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: That's you know, you can be pro America and critical

605
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 1: of Trump. You can be pro Israel and critical oft Yahoo.

606
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 1: And I just encourage everybody to realize this and please

607
00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,360
Speaker 1: keep that in mind. Before we get to the interview

608
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 1: with Amy Littlefield and killers of Roe, the murder mystery,

609
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: who were the suspects? And that's what we go through.

610
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 1: We go through the leading suspects of who gets the

611
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 1: blame for defeating Roe? How much of it is on

612
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: the side of the abortion rights movement and how much

613
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: of it is on the anti abortion right side of it.

614
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: Needless to say, there's a lot of fingerprints on the

615
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: Dobs on how we got that Dobs decision. Before we go,

616
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: there's a few things that I think are the first

617
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 1: signs that were starting to see. I think that we're

618
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 1: starting to see some impact, at least right now, short

619
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 1: term softening of support for Republicans in general. There's a

620
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 1: couple of new polls coming out of South Carolina that

621
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,280
Speaker 1: showed Lindsay Graham's personal approver ratings not doing very well.

622
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:22,319
Speaker 1: This Annie Andrews, who you've heard on this podcast, much

623
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 1: more competitive in these head to heads than anybody's expecting. Now, look,

624
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: we've been here before with Amy Harrison's campaign back during COVID,

625
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: and I think in hindsight it turned out that was

626
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:38,399
Speaker 1: probably bad polling. But in this I might be more

627
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 1: skeptical of if I didn't see some numbers out of

628
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: Ohio where we see in that Govenor's race be the Kramaswami.

629
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: Now I've seen multiple poles in a row that show

630
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 1: him trailing doctor Amy Actin and remember who she is.

631
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: She was essentially the governor Mike Dewines chief medical advisor

632
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: during COVID, became sort of a famous face in in Ohio.

633
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:04,839
Speaker 1: And certainly, you know, I I've I've spent some time

634
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 1: with her. I'm i'm i've I've found her to be

635
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 1: as good of any public health official we dealt with

636
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: and during the COVID pandemic, and just straightforward honest, I

637
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 1: was shocked she got into politics. She didn't strike me

638
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,520
Speaker 1: as a political person, but I think the experience dealing

639
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 1: with COVID sort of got her frustrated and made her

640
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,719
Speaker 1: decide to jump into politics. But we've now seen a

641
00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 1: couple of polls in a row that you Ramaswami trailing her,

642
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:36,240
Speaker 1: and again, you know, it's it's it's anecdotal. It's also

643
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: you know, it's a data point, and you know sometimes

644
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 1: data points are scattery, scattershot. So we'll continue to wait

645
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,760
Speaker 1: for more. But I'm certainly yet to see any evidence

646
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:50,800
Speaker 1: that this is helping unite Republicans. If anything, it's dividing

647
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 1: the country in ways that is not good I think

648
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 1: for any incumbent Republican on the ballot. There So just

649
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 1: a few things there, and then finally it's worth noting

650
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: what's happening in the main Senate race and the decision

651
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,640
Speaker 1: by Janet Mills, the governor there, to go to go

652
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 1: hard negative on her primary opponent, Graham Platner and talk

653
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 1: about the controversial tech Nazi inspired or themed tattoos and

654
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: some of his shall we say, uncouth tweets and things

655
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: like that. This is what primaries are for. And all

656
00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: I would say is is if you are in the

657
00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 1: national party, you know, sometimes I kind of think nasty

658
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: primaries only strengthened the potential primary winner and it actually

659
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:41,760
Speaker 1: takes the wind out of the sales of the party.

660
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 1: On the other side, Like I mean, Donald Trump became

661
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: a little bit more immune by the general election in

662
00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,000
Speaker 1: sixteen to some of Clinton's attacks, because everybody in the

663
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: Republican primary tried the same attacks, whether it was Jeb Bush,

664
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: Marco Rubio, Chris Christy, John Kaysik, you name it, right,

665
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 1: Ted Cruz, and they didn't work with in the primary,

666
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,319
Speaker 1: and they kind of weirdly immunize it. It almost like

667
00:39:03,360 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: for voters immunize them. And I would say this, so,

668
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: whether you're on the Grand Platiner side of things, the

669
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,080
Speaker 1: Susan Collins side of things or the Janet Mills. The

670
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:16,320
Speaker 1: person most disappointed by this should be actually Susan Collins,

671
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: because you don't want your opponents inoculating themselves on their

672
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 1: negatives during the primary. You want, you're hoping that they

673
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,480
Speaker 1: don't get litigated during a primary, so it looks like

674
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 1: new information in a general election. So you know, for

675
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: those on the Platiner side who are mad at the

676
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: Mills folks, you should be glad, Hey, get it out

677
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,799
Speaker 1: of the way. Litigate this now, find out if you've

678
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:40,479
Speaker 1: got immunities to this. If you're on the Mills side

679
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 1: of things, look, the only way you were going to

680
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: win is you had to make the case that he's unelectable.

681
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 1: That's what primaries are for. And if you're Collins, you're

682
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: probably a little disappointed that Mills has chosen to do this.

683
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: But in some ways you get to find out just

684
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 1: how just what could work or what doesn't work et Ce.

685
00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:02,440
Speaker 1: But I also think it shows you you know, so

686
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 1: this you know, I happen to think it's healthy. This

687
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: is why clearing primary fields can sometimes give you false

688
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: sense of security, because you don't end up vetting your

689
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:16,360
Speaker 1: primary candidate, right, your potential nominee, that it's better to

690
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 1: have it vetted. You know, for instance, I don't we

691
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:24,399
Speaker 1: didn't you know, the taller eco negatives that I think

692
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: Republicans are going to drop on his head weren't really

693
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 1: used in the Democratic primary. So this is going to

694
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 1: come across this new information of people and could be

695
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 1: more effective in the case. And that I think that's

696
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: one way to I think at least look at what

697
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 1: the main decision is. But it's you know, this is

698
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: there's going to be a lot of handwringing over this

699
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: decision by Mills, but at the end of the day,

700
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 1: it's it's probably the rip the band aid off moment

701
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:53,040
Speaker 1: that if you're over there among Senate Democrats, you may

702
00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: not like any of this, but better to have it

703
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,800
Speaker 1: litigated with primary voters. Then somehow have a non aggression.

704
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 1: You don't do it. It becomes a whisper campaign, but

705
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 1: you don't quite test it through, and then you have

706
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 1: an unvetted nominee right where the voters didn't get a

707
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:13,319
Speaker 1: chance to make that decision on their own. All right,

708
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: let me take a break. When we come back. My

709
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 1: conversation on the investigation into who should be blamed for

710
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: killing Roe. Let's thinking a break. We'll see on the

711
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 1: other side. Having good life insurance is incredibly important. I

712
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,320
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713
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714
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Speaker 1: us in the best shape. My mother single mother, now widow.

715
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Speaker 1: Myself sixteen trying to figure out how am I going

716
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717
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Speaker 1: had one life insurance policy that we found wasn't a lot,

718
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719
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Speaker 1: I was able to go to college. Little did he

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721
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Speaker 1: guess what. That's why I am here to tell you

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731
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733
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734
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736
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738
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739
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740
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 1: insurance is something you should really think about, especially if

741
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 1: you've got a growing family. Well, joining me now is

742
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 1: the author of a book. It's called Killers of Roe,

743
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: my investigation into the mysterious death of abortion rights. Book

744
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:25,759
Speaker 1: just came out. Well, the investigator in this case is

745
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,839
Speaker 1: Amy Littlefield. And that's what makes this book, I think

746
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 1: a This isn't just a policy analysis of legal strategy.

747
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: This is in some ways a history of the of

748
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 1: the anti abortion rights movement in many ways and the

749
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,279
Speaker 1: fifty year campaign that was waged and arguably a six

750
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:54,239
Speaker 1: obviously considering the Dobbs decision an effective campaign and in

751
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 1: many ways. Is the book is designed almost as a

752
00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 1: murder mystery. You're trying to figure out who you know,

753
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,240
Speaker 1: who got rid of these rights, how did it happen,

754
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: did it happen immediately, or as this book essentially teaches you,

755
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 1: it's kind of like bankruptcy. It happens very slowly and

756
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:14,800
Speaker 1: then suddenly it happens quickly. And Dobbs was the feeling

757
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:18,120
Speaker 1: of quickness. But the fact of the matter is this

758
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 1: was literally a fifty year campaign that arguably began the

759
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 1: hour after the original road decision. So to discuss this

760
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:31,360
Speaker 1: book fall out on abortion rights, and it's been well timed.

761
00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: You guys have had a bunch of questions of me,

762
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: of wondering where is the abortion issue this year in

763
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,680
Speaker 1: the midterm elections. Well, here's a good way to have

764
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 1: that conversation. Amy Littlefield, the investigator, joins me. Now, Amy,

765
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:43,240
Speaker 1: nice to have you on the podcast.

766
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Chuck, it's great to be here.

767
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: So I guess that's it. Let's start with this. Why

768
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 1: did you choose this framing and what made it so

769
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 1: compelling to you? I mean, I'm going to let the

770
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 1: out of the bag. I find it more. I found

771
00:45:01,760 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 1: it to be a compelling framing because it was a

772
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,359
Speaker 1: nice way to understand things. But you could have gone

773
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 1: in a number of directions. Why this one?

774
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean so the murder mystery framing came about

775
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,879
Speaker 3: because I had covered abortion rights for many years at

776
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 3: The Nation and New York Times Opinion and elsewhere, and

777
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 3: I was focused really on the grassroots of the abortion

778
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 3: rights movement and their strategy trying to defend abortion rights.

779
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 3: But I had also written a lot about near death

780
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:33,879
Speaker 3: experiences that had been faced by women who had been

781
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 3: denied adequate care for miscarriages, principally in Catholic hospitals that

782
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,839
Speaker 3: basically run under abortion vans, like the ones we're seeing

783
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 3: in states like Texas today. Right, You're not supposed to

784
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 3: do an abortion in a Catholic hospital, and.

785
00:45:49,480 --> 00:45:53,160
Speaker 1: Well tried just asking for tried, just asking for recommendations

786
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,720
Speaker 1: about getting an IUD in a Catholic hospital, exactly and exactly.

787
00:45:56,760 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 1: There can be no written record of this. We'll whisper

788
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:02,279
Speaker 1: it to you. We'll talk this person. I mean, I'm

789
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:04,000
Speaker 1: not saying I know this from experience, but I'm going

790
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 1: to tell you I know this from experience.

791
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 3: Yes, a lot of people do because one in six

792
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 3: acute care beds is in a Catholic hospital.

793
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 2: Right.

794
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,360
Speaker 1: This is care, right. I mean, it's just like some

795
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: of the best hospital care in the country is Catholic hospitals.

796
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: But they do operate with with essentially on one issue,

797
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: very much through a religious lens, not a scientific lens. Right.

798
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:27,759
Speaker 3: And the problem is, these are hospitals that look and

799
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,400
Speaker 3: operate like any other except that there's rules written by

800
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:34,359
Speaker 3: Catholic bishops governing how they administer reproductive healthcare, everything from

801
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 3: contraception to gender firm and care to of course abortion care.

802
00:46:38,560 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 2: And so I had.

803
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 3: Been interviewing women for years who had wound up in

804
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 3: Catholic hospitals when they were losing pregnancies and had almost

805
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:47,120
Speaker 3: died as a result. Now these, of course are the

806
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 3: stories that we're seeing coming out of Georgia and Texas.

807
00:46:50,880 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 2: And so all of that is.

808
00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 3: To say that when I learned that Ruth Vader Ginsburg

809
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 3: had died and that Roev Wade was almost certainly going

810
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 3: to be overturned as a result, I was a new mom.

811
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 3: I had a five month old baby. It was COVID times.

812
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 3: We're in the middle of a pandemic and about the

813
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 3: only thing I could read was Murder Mystery. Specifically, I

814
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 3: get the Christie because I was basically, you know, I

815
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:19,400
Speaker 3: was anxious, I was angry. I was sad about what

816
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 3: I knew was going to happen, and that was my escapism.

817
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 2: I was just mainlining, I get the cost.

818
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,400
Speaker 1: Everybody should go through an Agatha Christie face. This is

819
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,399
Speaker 1: just a total ast side. I did it at one

820
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: point in time too. You realize that, you know, look,

821
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,800
Speaker 1: she didn't quite invent it, but she popularized the genre,

822
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: and you realize when you read her stuff, you're like, wow,

823
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:41,800
Speaker 1: so many people ripped her off. Sorry, it's it aside,

824
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,280
Speaker 1: but it's so so great that you mentioned that little

825
00:47:44,280 --> 00:47:47,279
Speaker 1: assign because Agatha Christie's one of those you know it

826
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: is it is prolift obviously not to go down a

827
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:52,359
Speaker 1: rabbit hole. Maybe she didn't write all.

828
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 2: I'm ready to go down. I get the Christie rabbit

829
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 2: hole with you any time.

830
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:59,839
Speaker 1: But it is everybody should go through, and I get

831
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 1: the Christie face. But I digress, go ahead.

832
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 2: And completely, and for me, I went through it twice.

833
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 3: I went through it in adolescence that I was a

834
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,080
Speaker 3: teenager and first discovered her, and then I went through

835
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:10,400
Speaker 3: it again as a new mom, where you know, I

836
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 3: just love disappearing into that world that she has created.

837
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 2: And yes, indeed we live in the literary world that

838
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:17,879
Speaker 2: she has made.

839
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:22,120
Speaker 1: She has true crime and all crime. Right. Well, that's

840
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 1: the other part of this is that, I mean, look,

841
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:27,839
Speaker 1: I think all of us in journalism, all of us

842
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,319
Speaker 1: in activism, are always looking for more compelling ways to

843
00:48:30,360 --> 00:48:33,359
Speaker 1: reach more people. In framing this in some ways as

844
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: a murder mystery, as a crime novel, if you will, right,

845
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 1: except that happens to be back not fiction, is a

846
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: way to perhaps widen the ambisher here a little bit.

847
00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 3: So, I mean it started out as a way for

848
00:48:48,680 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 3: me and to entice myself to tell a really difficult story.

849
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 3: I knew I was going to have to sit with

850
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 3: some pretty difficult people. I was going to have to

851
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,400
Speaker 3: sit and spend hours with anti abortion activists. I was

852
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 3: going to have to spend time telling this stories of

853
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 3: women who had died as a result of anti abortion policies.

854
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 3: You know, the sort of cliff notes version of this

855
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,320
Speaker 3: history is that it's fifty years of women dying preventable

856
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 3: deaths because of policy. It's advanced by men who thought

857
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 3: they were speaking to God himself directly, and so it's

858
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 3: not easy to sit with that, especially today, right, I mean,

859
00:49:18,080 --> 00:49:20,280
Speaker 3: people of conscience in this country are having a really

860
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 3: tough time. We're watching, you know, bombs being dropped on

861
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,600
Speaker 3: civilian populations from Gaza to Iran. We're watching you know,

862
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 3: constant social media imagery of parents holding their dead children. Okay,

863
00:49:31,120 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 3: it's it's a pretty rough and immigrant neighbors being rounded up.

864
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 3: I mean, this is a rough reality we're dealing with.

865
00:49:37,160 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 3: And I knew I was going to have to tell

866
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:41,360
Speaker 3: part of the history of how we got to this point,

867
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:44,800
Speaker 3: of how the Republican Party, you know, wound up opportunistically

868
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 3: using the issue of abortion to end up where they

869
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 3: are today, and so I wanted to sort of entice

870
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 3: myself into that story.

871
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 2: And as I got into.

872
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,240
Speaker 3: It, I realized, you know, not only is this providing

873
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 3: a little bit of for it and escapism and I

874
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 3: hope a little bit of humor and levity too to

875
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 3: this very serious story, But it turned out to be

876
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,360
Speaker 3: the right frame to tell the story I was trying

877
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 3: to tell because I really was interested in the behind

878
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 3: the scenes figures, in the suspects that you don't notice

879
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 3: until you get all the way to the end, and

880
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 3: then the detective says, you know.

881
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:18,279
Speaker 2: She did it.

882
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 3: It was the housekeeper who was, you know, always in

883
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 3: the background. And I was looking for those people, you know,

884
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 3: in the margins of history, right, the people, not the

885
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 3: Supreme Court justices. We know that story, right. We know

886
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:33,359
Speaker 3: what the Supreme Court did. We know how Donald Trump

887
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 3: put the justices there. We know how Leonard Leo picked

888
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 3: the justices. We have that story. And I wanted to

889
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 3: tell the story of the social movement and of the

890
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 3: grassroots activists and the more hidden figures, and discovering them

891
00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 3: was just as exciting as real life as it is

892
00:50:50,239 --> 00:50:51,320
Speaker 3: in a novel.

893
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 1: No, And that's to me what was really important. I

894
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: don't think people understood because it was you know, one

895
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 1: of the harder things to square over the last thirty

896
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: years in my professional life covering campaigns was you would

897
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 1: have fairly moderate Republicans still stick to some pretty strident

898
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 1: views on abortion, and it would always be a bit

899
00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 1: of a head scratcher at first, and then over time

900
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 1: you've just come to learn, you know, if you wanted

901
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:21,759
Speaker 1: volunteers to show up at your campaign to stuff envelopes

902
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: and you didn't have the essentially the old Phyllis Schlafley crowd.

903
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 1: You know, they showed up, they licked envelopes, they went

904
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: door knocking, I mean, and you didn't get campaign volunteers.

905
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 1: State parties wouldn't be able to get volunteers had they

906
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:42,720
Speaker 1: ever quote moderated their position on abortion.

907
00:51:43,680 --> 00:51:47,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I mean the hard reality I think to

908
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 3: look at for people who support abortion rights is that

909
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 3: the anti abortion movement, one of the ways they won

910
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 3: was by erecting an incredibly impressive grassroots infrastructure. And of

911
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:00,360
Speaker 3: course they hit the ground running on that because the

912
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 3: original infrastructure for organizing in the anti abortion movement was

913
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,160
Speaker 3: the Catholic Church itself, right, And I tell the story

914
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 3: of the passage of the High Amendment, the ban on

915
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 3: federal funding of abortion, and how that came about. Basically,

916
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 3: what tipped the scales on that was the Catholic Church

917
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 3: getting involved in rallying pastors in the districts of critical

918
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 3: members of Congress. And what could be a better you know,

919
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,759
Speaker 3: organizing infrastructure than the Catholic Church, I mean members.

920
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 1: More importantly back then and people don't realize this, you still,

921
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 1: when did the Catholic Church stop allowing priests to serve

922
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 1: in elective office. I don't know that number, but it

923
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: was right, It was right around then. But the point

924
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,560
Speaker 1: was is that it was more common in the fifties

925
00:52:45,560 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: and sixties and seventies for a Catholic priest to be political,

926
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 1: and it was sort of accepted. And then, you know,

927
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 1: it's only in the recent last fifty years arguably that

928
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 1: this idea of clergy in general, let alone Catholic priests

929
00:53:02,600 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 1: getting running themselves for office. But you had. You know,

930
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: one of my favorite stories campaign stories to tell is

931
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:13,280
Speaker 1: that there was a sitting Catholic priest who ran against

932
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 1: Claiborne pell for the US Senate in Rhode Island in

933
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 1: the early sixties. That priest would leave the priesthood and

934
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:25,200
Speaker 1: start a political television show called the McLoughlin Group, which

935
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:26,839
Speaker 1: you may have heard of back in the day, the

936
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:29,840
Speaker 1: originator of political punditry on television. But the point was

937
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 1: is that the Catholic Church and they had tentacles in

938
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:35,439
Speaker 1: both parties. You had. It was this was a case

939
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:38,200
Speaker 1: where this was not yet a divisive correct me if

940
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: I'm wrong, But in the seventies, this was not a

941
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 1: red versus Blue issue. This was within both.

942
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 2: Parties, right, right, absolutely?

943
00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:48,880
Speaker 3: I mean Mary Ziegeler talks about how from nineteen seventy

944
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:52,760
Speaker 3: three to nineteen eighty four, the majority of anti abortion

945
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 3: policies that were introduced in Congress were brought forward by Democrats.

946
00:53:56,320 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 3: Right in the early days, you had Catholic Democrats, you.

947
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 2: Know, who were anti abortion.

948
00:54:04,120 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 3: You had pro choice Republicans, some of whom I talked

949
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 3: to in my book, like Senator Bob Packwood, who's in

950
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 3: his nineties now, you know, complicated guy, but he was

951
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 3: a pro choice champion through and through so, and he

952
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 3: was a Republican.

953
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:18,440
Speaker 1: Oh, there's a certain member of the Bush family that

954
00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 1: started out as a pro choice Republican politician and then

955
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,400
Speaker 1: literally flipped to get on a certain Republican ticket in

956
00:54:24,480 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty Arguably.

957
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:27,719
Speaker 3: That's right, the man they used to call Rubbers who

958
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:32,320
Speaker 3: was so fond of family planning that he earned that Moniker.

959
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 3: And yeah, so, so this was not guaranteed to be

960
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,960
Speaker 3: a partisan issue when it started out by any means.

961
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: So when would you say that switch flipped? You know,

962
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:44,719
Speaker 1: so you talk about the high demend in seventy six,

963
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 1: this is massive majorities right at that point, in time

964
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:52,319
Speaker 1: for Democrats. So this was This is why you know,

965
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people who I think think politics

966
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:57,880
Speaker 1: began in two thousand and eight, and you know sometimes

967
00:54:57,920 --> 00:54:58,839
Speaker 1: that they forget that.

968
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 3: You know, you might have some listeners who were born

969
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:04,520
Speaker 3: that night.

970
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 1: I say this with love it. This is why they

971
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:09,399
Speaker 1: are Sometimes our history sections are the most popular things

972
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 1: we do because because you know, you have to understand

973
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 1: these things. So seventy six, this is after the This

974
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 1: is basically the first Congress after the Watergate Congress, the

975
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:22,520
Speaker 1: Watergate elections, which is just a massive Democratic majorities, right,

976
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:25,600
Speaker 1: and this was not and so the High Amendment I

977
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 1: assume passed with more Democrats and Republics. Right.

978
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:32,239
Speaker 3: This was a Democratic Congress that passed this policy, and

979
00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:35,399
Speaker 3: it took Democrats. You know, Democrats supported it for years.

980
00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 3: Joe Biden supported it for many years until you know,

981
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 3: a renegade faction of the abortion rights movement made it

982
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 3: untenable for him to do.

983
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:43,279
Speaker 2: So, you know, he.

984
00:55:43,280 --> 00:55:47,360
Speaker 1: Supported it through both terms as vice president. He stuck

985
00:55:47,440 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 1: by this. It wasn't until he wanted to be president himself.

986
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly.

987
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 3: And so you know the part of the history I

988
00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 3: tell in the book is the history of sort of

989
00:55:56,719 --> 00:56:00,439
Speaker 3: democratic complicity in the slow and steady erosion of abortion rights,

990
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 3: and the High Amendment is really you know where it starts.

991
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 3: That's the policy that restricts medicaid funding of abortion. To

992
00:56:07,680 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 3: this day, most states, unless they cover abortion with their

993
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:14,000
Speaker 3: own state funds, medicaid patients cannot get their abortions covered.

994
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 3: They have to raise hundreds or even thousands of dollars

995
00:56:16,040 --> 00:56:18,320
Speaker 3: out of pocket, which has put enormous pressure on the

996
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 3: abortion rights movement as well to come up with the

997
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 3: millions of dollars that it takes to try to fill

998
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 3: that gap.

999
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 2: It's never been enough. And so you know that policy.

1000
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 3: I tell the story of some of the behind the scenes,

1001
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,520
Speaker 3: you know, Catholic Republicans that were involved in that history.

1002
00:56:32,239 --> 00:56:34,640
Speaker 3: And of course the Catholic Church played an important role,

1003
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:39,240
Speaker 3: but so did Democrats, you know, Democrats like Republican I'm sorry,

1004
00:56:39,280 --> 00:56:44,719
Speaker 3: Representative Dan Flood, it was from Pennsylvania who oversaw the

1005
00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:47,080
Speaker 3: sub committee in charge of the Appropriations bill that the

1006
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:49,759
Speaker 3: High Amendment was sort of being tacked onto, and he

1007
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:51,920
Speaker 3: was very against the High Amendment. Saw it as an

1008
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 3: attack on poor people. He railed against it, and he

1009
00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,960
Speaker 3: was this Shakespearean theater actor, very dramatic. So this is

1010
00:56:58,000 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 3: a you know, attack on poor people's plays, the nose

1011
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:03,439
Speaker 3: on your face. Well, then what happened. The Catholic Church

1012
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:05,719
Speaker 3: got involved, sent him thousands of letters. You know, he

1013
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:08,359
Speaker 3: came from a heavily Catholic district, and he flipped. And

1014
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:10,240
Speaker 3: that's part of the story of how the High Amendment

1015
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 3: got through a Democratic majority Congress. I mean another thing,

1016
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:18,160
Speaker 3: and you know, you know this history even better than

1017
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 3: I do. But in nineteen seventy six, right, this is

1018
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 3: the even nineteen seventy six election, Evangelicals are becoming a

1019
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:27,360
Speaker 3: big political force for the first time. And I think

1020
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 3: there were plenty of Democrats in Congress who maybe thought

1021
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:30,040
Speaker 3: Roe v.

1022
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 2: Wade was a good thing.

1023
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 3: Most Americans did at that point. And yet they thought

1024
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 3: public funding of abortion poor people, women of color. Maybe

1025
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 3: we we can, you know, we better not take a

1026
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 3: stand on that one this close to an election where

1027
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 3: there's this new you know, political.

1028
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 2: Force, and so anti abortion.

1029
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:52,120
Speaker 3: You know, politics have always been a minority point of view,

1030
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 3: and this is one of many stops along the way

1031
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 3: where we can see how that minority point of view

1032
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:59,760
Speaker 3: asserted itself on a population that disagreed with it.

1033
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 1: Look, you brought up the sort of the evangelical movement

1034
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:06,280
Speaker 1: which began, you know, sort of politically first flexed its

1035
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 1: muzzle with the election of the first ever evangelical Christian

1036
00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:16,000
Speaker 1: to be president, Jimmy Carter, And immediately within four years

1037
00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: there's the evangelical leaders, people like Jerry Folwell standing next

1038
00:58:20,360 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 1: to Ronald Reagan, who at one point was a supporter

1039
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:28,440
Speaker 1: of abortion rights as governor of California. How did that moment.

1040
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 3: Come up in Yeah, and I think the Reagan eras

1041
00:58:30,920 --> 00:58:33,400
Speaker 3: where we really start to see the partisan lines. They're

1042
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 3: still not totally fixed, you know. I think that's an

1043
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 3: even more recent development, but I think that's where we

1044
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 3: start to see the partisan lines start to solidify a

1045
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 3: bit more. When you have Reagan campaigning on a strong

1046
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 3: anti abortion position, even though he himself, of course had

1047
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 3: signed an abortion liberalization law when he was governor of California,

1048
00:58:52,200 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 3: later said he regredit it. You know, he gets dubbed

1049
00:58:56,680 --> 00:58:59,959
Speaker 3: in the first pro life president. Of course, he makes

1050
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,439
Speaker 3: at a major issue, and you see right to life

1051
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:05,040
Speaker 3: groups really supporting him. I mean, one of the interesting

1052
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:08,920
Speaker 3: pieces of raw material I was able to examine for

1053
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 3: this book where some communicates between right to life groups

1054
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 3: and the Reagan campaign in nineteen eighty four, where basically,

1055
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:18,600
Speaker 3: the right to life groups were saying, listen, we do

1056
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 3: not have a majority point of view. Right most people

1057
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 3: disagree with what we want to do, and yet we

1058
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 3: do have a majority of people who will base their

1059
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:29,200
Speaker 3: or we do have a strong contingent of people who

1060
00:59:29,200 --> 00:59:32,040
Speaker 3: will base their votes on a single issue of abortion.

1061
00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,000
Speaker 3: And so they were basically saying to the Reagan campaign, Hey,

1062
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 3: we have this huge, super impressive grassroots infrastructure. Use it,

1063
00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 3: Use our volunteers, Use the you know housewives out there

1064
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 3: who you know, to whom you know, the issue of

1065
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 3: abortion is an existential threat. Use the you know folks

1066
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:51,200
Speaker 3: out there or going to Catholic church on the weekends

1067
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:53,440
Speaker 3: and want to you know, stamp envelopes for the Reagan

1068
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:56,880
Speaker 3: campaign during the week I mean, this is this is

1069
00:59:57,000 --> 01:00:00,520
Speaker 3: sort of how they built this alliance between their publican

1070
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 3: party and anti abortion diehards.

1071
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:15,440
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, you could do a very similar

1072
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 1: There was a similar sort of evolution to the gun

1073
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 1: issue that started as a you know, there wasn't a

1074
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:25,840
Speaker 1: arguably there was a pro gun majority in both parties

1075
01:00:25,880 --> 01:00:29,560
Speaker 1: first a period of time. But guns and abortion are

1076
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 1: both single issue type of voters, right, the voters that

1077
01:00:34,360 --> 01:00:36,000
Speaker 1: say it's their number one issue. It's the there is

1078
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 1: no number two issues. And it's an interesting phenomenon. It's

1079
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:42,160
Speaker 1: sort of like when people try to ask yourself, you

1080
01:00:42,200 --> 01:00:43,760
Speaker 1: try to you know, I hear I get this question

1081
01:00:43,800 --> 01:00:47,080
Speaker 1: all the time. What is something that has seventy percent support?

1082
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 1: I guess abortion rights. It's sitting somewhere between fifty five

1083
01:00:50,000 --> 01:00:52,520
Speaker 1: and sixty five, depending on the stage go into. But

1084
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 1: it's you know, there might be two states in the

1085
01:00:54,800 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 1: Union where's upside down maybe, but we're talking like Idaho

1086
01:00:58,080 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 1: and Wildman if and I'm and we're talking narrow. But

1087
01:01:05,080 --> 01:01:07,040
Speaker 1: it is this issue of being a single issue voter

1088
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:10,280
Speaker 1: and how if you are, if you really want, if

1089
01:01:10,280 --> 01:01:12,920
Speaker 1: you have a minority position and you want outside political power,

1090
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 1: get as many single issue allies as you can on this.

1091
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:20,000
Speaker 1: And when you think about the power of the Republican

1092
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 1: Party was able to extract out of just guns and

1093
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:28,000
Speaker 1: abortion basically in the nineties. By that's really I know,

1094
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 1: I'm fast forwarding here, being single issue I don't it

1095
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:35,280
Speaker 1: is it is. It is fascinating whenever we pull these

1096
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:37,080
Speaker 1: questions we used to pull wed ask is there an

1097
01:01:37,120 --> 01:01:40,080
Speaker 1: issue that's so important to you that you would vote

1098
01:01:40,120 --> 01:01:43,640
Speaker 1: against all your other interests just for this issue? And

1099
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 1: you look and it's always been abortion, one, guns too.

1100
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:48,439
Speaker 1: You know where those things come down.

1101
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:53,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely absolutely, And we've seen what happen when what

1102
01:01:53,960 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 3: happens when people vote on the single issue of abortion, specifically, right,

1103
01:01:57,520 --> 01:01:59,959
Speaker 3: with all of these ballid initiatives that have come about

1104
01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:04,280
Speaker 3: up from you know, Missouri to Vermont, you know, across

1105
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:06,520
Speaker 3: the political spectrum, in the wake of the Dobbs decision,

1106
01:02:06,520 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 3: a record number of states are putting the issue of

1107
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:11,440
Speaker 3: abortion directly on the ballot, and more often than not,

1108
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:15,080
Speaker 3: abortion rights wins in almost any state you go to,

1109
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:18,520
Speaker 3: right because people, when people have the chance to vote

1110
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:21,120
Speaker 3: directly on this issue, they vote in favor of it.

1111
01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:25,160
Speaker 3: I think when you're talking about political parties and you

1112
01:02:25,200 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 3: know whether people are going to vote for a candidate

1113
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 3: based on it, of course it gets more complicated. But

1114
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:31,640
Speaker 3: the anti abortion movement is always known that that's one

1115
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:33,440
Speaker 3: of its straints, that one of the ways that they

1116
01:02:33,520 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 3: win with an unpopular point of view is that there

1117
01:02:36,640 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 3: are people who are willing to compromise the rest of

1118
01:02:38,720 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 3: their you know, values in order to vote for a

1119
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 3: politician who stands against abortion.

1120
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 1: In fact, there's not a lot there were. There weren't

1121
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 1: that many attempts by the anti abortion rights movement to

1122
01:02:50,600 --> 01:02:55,120
Speaker 1: go to referendums where they're compared comparatively.

1123
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:56,480
Speaker 2: By the abortion rights movement.

1124
01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 1: You're saying, the anti abortion rights movement, Well, I'm trying

1125
01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:03,960
Speaker 1: to think that a person I remember a personhood amendment, yeah, empt, Yeah,

1126
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 1: I mean I think that that don't I believe that failed.

1127
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:09,000
Speaker 3: I think its lot in South Dakota or yeah, I

1128
01:03:09,040 --> 01:03:11,880
Speaker 3: mean when this personhood fails, when it because people realize,

1129
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:13,520
Speaker 3: oh my god, wait a minute, if you're talking about

1130
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:16,360
Speaker 3: life beginning at conception, right, you're going to come for

1131
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:18,960
Speaker 3: my IVF Are you going to try to come for

1132
01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 3: my iud.

1133
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 1: So so when you go. So it is interesting that

1134
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:26,120
Speaker 1: that if they thought, I mean, that's sort of in

1135
01:03:26,160 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 1: some ways, the lack of action is proof that they

1136
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:30,560
Speaker 1: knew they didn't have majority support.

1137
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 3: Oh, I think they've always known they don't have majority support.

1138
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:37,280
Speaker 3: I think they've always known that, you know, they have

1139
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:40,080
Speaker 3: to find that's why, you know, defenders of abortion rights

1140
01:03:40,120 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 3: will say democracy and abortion rights go hand in hand.

1141
01:03:43,080 --> 01:03:45,439
Speaker 3: The more voting rights you have, the better abortion does

1142
01:03:45,560 --> 01:03:47,680
Speaker 3: the more you know. And that's why if you look

1143
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 3: at authoritarian societies, you know, around the world, not just

1144
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:52,720
Speaker 3: here at home, you're going to see that, you know,

1145
01:03:52,840 --> 01:03:55,360
Speaker 3: reproductive rights are off in the first ones constrained. I mean,

1146
01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:59,680
Speaker 3: these issues can't be separated. When you have one, youre

1147
01:03:59,720 --> 01:04:02,680
Speaker 3: women who will have an abortion in her lifetime. You know, yeah,

1148
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:05,560
Speaker 3: that's going to be a pretty popular issue.

1149
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 1: There's another way to look at your book about you know,

1150
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:13,640
Speaker 1: you're chronicling a brilliant campaign strategy that the anti abortion

1151
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:22,479
Speaker 1: rights movement ran versus a the abortion rights activists who

1152
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 1: couldn't believe they were probably spent so much time, couldn't

1153
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 1: believe they were losing. You know. It's sort of like

1154
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:30,720
Speaker 1: there's an there's an old SNL skit, you know, where

1155
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 1: the guy playing John Lovett plays Michael deccause, I can't

1156
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:36,800
Speaker 1: believe I'm losing to this guy, and you're just And

1157
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 1: I've always sensed, I mean, there's sort of two things

1158
01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:42,560
Speaker 1: now in hindsight that I want to that I've always

1159
01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:45,840
Speaker 1: been curious about what the abortion rights movement. One is,

1160
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:51,800
Speaker 1: was it a was it a failed defense strategy from

1161
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:54,520
Speaker 1: the beginning? Was choice the worst word they could have picked?

1162
01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:59,360
Speaker 1: And how did they you know? And what why didn't

1163
01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:06,760
Speaker 1: they make freedom and right the centerpiece rather or even

1164
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:09,959
Speaker 1: healthcare the centerpiece. I feel like in the last four

1165
01:05:10,080 --> 01:05:13,960
Speaker 1: years those advocating abortion rights have gotten smarter about this,

1166
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:17,360
Speaker 1: but in the previous forty six not so much.

1167
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think the problem with choice is that.

1168
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:24,640
Speaker 3: Even with rob Way being a lot of the land,

1169
01:05:24,680 --> 01:05:27,680
Speaker 3: it was always a false promise, right, It's not do

1170
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:30,040
Speaker 3: people have a meaningful choice when one of the top

1171
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:33,240
Speaker 3: issues that people get an abortion is financial right, and

1172
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:34,919
Speaker 3: I've worked in clinics, so I can tell you most

1173
01:05:34,920 --> 01:05:37,040
Speaker 3: people are saying I can't afford this baby right now.

1174
01:05:37,560 --> 01:05:39,760
Speaker 1: And so is that It's rare to meet somebody who

1175
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:41,400
Speaker 1: got an abortion who's like, I'm so glad I got

1176
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:41,880
Speaker 1: an abortion.

1177
01:05:42,840 --> 01:05:45,240
Speaker 2: They're out there, you know, they're out there. That's not

1178
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:46,600
Speaker 2: you know, there are.

1179
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:49,160
Speaker 1: There's a lot of people, a lot of people are

1180
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:52,960
Speaker 1: getting it's it is. There are other reasons they feel

1181
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:55,000
Speaker 1: they need to do it, and so they don't like

1182
01:05:55,080 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 1: being told it's a choice exactly.

1183
01:05:58,080 --> 01:05:59,440
Speaker 2: It was always a false promise.

1184
01:05:59,480 --> 01:06:01,800
Speaker 3: I mean, and you know, when you have the right

1185
01:06:01,840 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 3: to abortion coming about at the same time that you

1186
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:06,880
Speaker 3: start to see, you know, the eviseration of the social

1187
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:10,280
Speaker 3: safety net in this country, the backlash against the War

1188
01:06:10,360 --> 01:06:13,640
Speaker 3: on poverty, the backlash against the civil rights movement, the

1189
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:16,840
Speaker 3: backlash against feminism, the fact that we don't have many

1190
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 3: of the like basic policies like you know, childcare and

1191
01:06:20,360 --> 01:06:23,120
Speaker 3: paid family leave that it would take to raise a family.

1192
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 2: Then choice is not really it doesn't really operate the

1193
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:29,560
Speaker 2: way that it promises to do.

1194
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 3: And I think the other issue with it is that

1195
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:35,200
Speaker 3: the choice framework could be weaponized in order to promote

1196
01:06:35,200 --> 01:06:38,040
Speaker 3: anti abortion policies. It could be weaponized to say, we

1197
01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 3: shouldn't have tax payer funding of abortion, we shouldn't we

1198
01:06:41,600 --> 01:06:44,360
Speaker 3: should have parental consent laws. Right, these are two of

1199
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 3: the kind of most popular anti abortion policies that even

1200
01:06:47,600 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 3: Democrats often supported. Why because you know, if the government's

1201
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:54,040
Speaker 3: supposed to stay out of abortion and it's supposed to

1202
01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:57,160
Speaker 3: be a personal choice, you know, then why would they

1203
01:06:57,200 --> 01:06:57,680
Speaker 3: fund it?

1204
01:06:58,080 --> 01:06:58,280
Speaker 2: Then?

1205
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:01,000
Speaker 3: You know, why wouldn't we want parents involved in this

1206
01:07:01,160 --> 01:07:03,160
Speaker 3: choice that belongs to the family. And so I think

1207
01:07:03,160 --> 01:07:07,080
Speaker 3: there was a way that it could be used to justify,

1208
01:07:07,440 --> 01:07:13,200
Speaker 3: you know, conservative policies, and it's a less encompassing framework

1209
01:07:13,240 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 3: than freedom. It's less encompassing than reproductive justice, which was

1210
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:19,640
Speaker 3: the framework developed by black women to say we shouldn't

1211
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 3: just have the right to abortion, we should have the

1212
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:24,040
Speaker 3: right to parent and to raise those children in safe communities.

1213
01:07:24,440 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 3: And especially after the Reagan era, that is not what

1214
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:29,240
Speaker 3: the United States has been able to provide for families.

1215
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:31,840
Speaker 1: You spend a little bit of time on the first

1216
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 1: deaths sort of after the High Amendment, and you were

1217
01:07:35,160 --> 01:07:38,000
Speaker 1: talking about how it's a woman who name's Rosie Himanniz.

1218
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:44,160
Speaker 1: Didn't I think there was some thought she'd become a Look,

1219
01:07:44,200 --> 01:07:47,480
Speaker 1: this is what happens when you make this more difficult,

1220
01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:51,680
Speaker 1: when you add more hurdles on something that the Supreme

1221
01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:56,919
Speaker 1: Court said was a right. Okay, and suddenly in order,

1222
01:07:57,280 --> 01:07:59,520
Speaker 1: you know, our rights were never supposed to come with

1223
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:03,840
Speaker 1: a fee, right. I think we you know, we decided

1224
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:06,160
Speaker 1: we weren't going to allow poll taxes. Right. I'm not

1225
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:08,560
Speaker 1: trying to, but you know, essentially the idea was your

1226
01:08:08,600 --> 01:08:12,200
Speaker 1: right turn't supposed to cost you money. And in this case,

1227
01:08:12,240 --> 01:08:15,120
Speaker 1: here's a death because somebody couldn't afford an abortion because

1228
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:20,360
Speaker 1: they were in medicaid. It didn't galvanize. And why didn't

1229
01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:21,200
Speaker 1: the galvanize?

1230
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:23,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is the question I asked in the book,

1231
01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:26,559
Speaker 3: And I cover the first death of Rosi Jimenez, which

1232
01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:29,360
Speaker 3: was the horrible, you know, eight day long saga of

1233
01:08:29,439 --> 01:08:32,479
Speaker 3: her getting an infection and dying as a result of

1234
01:08:32,479 --> 01:08:36,280
Speaker 3: the infection while doctors were badgering her to talk about

1235
01:08:36,320 --> 01:08:39,439
Speaker 3: her abortion and she was pleading to be left alone

1236
01:08:39,479 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 3: to die in peace. I talk about that first death,

1237
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:46,360
Speaker 3: which was horrible and completely preventable and resulted from this

1238
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:49,599
Speaker 3: policy called the High Amendment, And then I look at

1239
01:08:49,600 --> 01:08:52,599
Speaker 3: the second death, which was how was the pro choice

1240
01:08:52,720 --> 01:08:56,519
Speaker 3: movement implicated? How are democrats implicated in the fact that

1241
01:08:56,560 --> 01:09:01,040
Speaker 3: this policy that killed this woman became accept it became popular,

1242
01:09:01,200 --> 01:09:04,519
Speaker 3: became seen as a middle ground on the abortion issue.

1243
01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:08,880
Speaker 1: As you're referring to. I think her name is Becky Bell, right,

1244
01:09:09,160 --> 01:09:12,160
Speaker 1: and she was under eighteen, so right, right, I could

1245
01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:12,799
Speaker 1: tell her parents.

1246
01:09:13,280 --> 01:09:15,880
Speaker 3: Becky Bell is a seventeen year old in Indiana. Because

1247
01:09:15,920 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 3: of a law passed in the nineteen eighties in that state,

1248
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:20,400
Speaker 3: she had to tell her parents and get consent if

1249
01:09:20,400 --> 01:09:23,000
Speaker 3: she wanted an abortion. She told a friend, I love

1250
01:09:23,080 --> 01:09:25,519
Speaker 3: them too much. I can't tell my parents. I'll disappoint them.

1251
01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:28,799
Speaker 3: And so instead she got an unsafe abortion. Her parents

1252
01:09:29,320 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 3: take her to the hospital, she dies of pneumonia. They

1253
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:34,000
Speaker 3: have no idea what's happened until they get a call

1254
01:09:34,040 --> 01:09:36,720
Speaker 3: from the coroner. It says, your daughter died because of

1255
01:09:36,760 --> 01:09:39,160
Speaker 3: an abortion. That's what caused the pneumonia that killed her.

1256
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:43,519
Speaker 3: And what's remarkable about them is that they could have

1257
01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:46,400
Speaker 3: had the secret that their daughter had died to keep,

1258
01:09:46,439 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 3: and instead they decided to share it with the world

1259
01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:51,920
Speaker 3: and to say, listen, these policies are popular. We would

1260
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:55,080
Speaker 3: have supported them. We like the idea, you know, lots

1261
01:09:55,080 --> 01:09:57,200
Speaker 3: of liberals like the idea my daughter should have to

1262
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:00,000
Speaker 3: come to me if she needs an abortion. But they said,

1263
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:01,800
Speaker 3: we she had had an abortion. We had never known,

1264
01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 3: because then she would have been here today. And when

1265
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:07,320
Speaker 3: Dobbs happened, when the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade,

1266
01:10:07,400 --> 01:10:10,240
Speaker 3: all but fourteen states in this country were enforcing some

1267
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:13,679
Speaker 3: version of a parental involvement law. And so that's another

1268
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:17,639
Speaker 3: example of how, you know, this incremental erosion of abortion

1269
01:10:17,760 --> 01:10:22,160
Speaker 3: rights that killed real people, you know, that killed women,

1270
01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:26,320
Speaker 3: How that happened and was supported by people across the

1271
01:10:26,360 --> 01:10:27,400
Speaker 3: political spectrum.

1272
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:30,479
Speaker 1: So when you talk to folks on the abortion rights

1273
01:10:30,520 --> 01:10:34,720
Speaker 1: side of things as you were investigating this mystery, what

1274
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:39,080
Speaker 1: ownership do they take in? I mean, because you know,

1275
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:42,080
Speaker 1: one of the my conservative legal friends will say, well,

1276
01:10:42,120 --> 01:10:44,519
Speaker 1: the initial decision was a bad decision, and in fact,

1277
01:10:45,080 --> 01:10:49,040
Speaker 1: I don't understand why equal protection wasn't used as the argument,

1278
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:52,240
Speaker 1: right that they went searching for this right to privacy?

1279
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:54,680
Speaker 1: Now is it the legal argument that did it? Or

1280
01:10:54,720 --> 01:10:56,960
Speaker 1: was it the justices desperate to not do a five

1281
01:10:57,000 --> 01:10:59,639
Speaker 1: to four right They didn't want a five to four

1282
01:10:59,640 --> 01:11:02,840
Speaker 1: in run, so they came up with a convoluted way

1283
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:04,760
Speaker 1: in order to believe it was a seven to two.

1284
01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:08,439
Speaker 1: If I'm not mistaken, it was sixth three, which one

1285
01:11:08,479 --> 01:11:12,320
Speaker 1: the original row? Right? Yeah, yeah, it was it six

1286
01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:14,360
Speaker 1: three or seven two, But I knew they didn't. They

1287
01:11:14,360 --> 01:11:17,400
Speaker 1: were fearful of a five to four right, right, and

1288
01:11:18,400 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 1: they come up with this this this version. But you

1289
01:11:23,080 --> 01:11:27,920
Speaker 1: know that's my conservative legal friends will say, the reason

1290
01:11:29,040 --> 01:11:31,960
Speaker 1: Roe fell is it was poorly it was. It was

1291
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:36,479
Speaker 1: poorly decided. Did you come across those on the abortion

1292
01:11:36,600 --> 01:11:39,000
Speaker 1: right sides that look at it now? And say, yeah,

1293
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:42,280
Speaker 1: maybe that wasn't that that maybe that was the original sin.

1294
01:11:43,080 --> 01:11:45,599
Speaker 3: I mean, I think you could. I think people will

1295
01:11:45,640 --> 01:11:50,040
Speaker 3: definitely find flaws in the legal rationale of Roe v.

1296
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:52,120
Speaker 2: Wade. But I think we both know that that's not

1297
01:11:52,160 --> 01:11:53,760
Speaker 2: why it fell. Right.

1298
01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:58,639
Speaker 3: They felt because abortion, and it fell because the anti

1299
01:11:58,720 --> 01:12:03,760
Speaker 3: abortion movement built very powerful connections and was able to

1300
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:07,720
Speaker 3: orchestrate this, you know, political coup, despite having most of

1301
01:12:07,760 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 3: society against it. So I don't think it was like, oh,

1302
01:12:12,240 --> 01:12:14,720
Speaker 3: there were flaws with the legal rationale and therefore, I mean,

1303
01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:17,120
Speaker 3: there's plenty of flawed decisions out there that are still

1304
01:12:17,200 --> 01:12:18,559
Speaker 3: the law of the land.

1305
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:23,559
Speaker 1: You know, another culprit. You don't talk about that much.

1306
01:12:23,680 --> 01:12:25,719
Speaker 1: You talk about it with High with the High Amendment.

1307
01:12:26,280 --> 01:12:34,120
Speaker 1: But you know, I've been I've been growing more fond

1308
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:38,000
Speaker 1: of being of realizing that ninety percent of our political

1309
01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:41,960
Speaker 1: problems over the last sixty years in this country stem

1310
01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:46,720
Speaker 1: from inaction by Congress. And because of Congress's inability to

1311
01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:50,320
Speaker 1: deal with problems, many activists started going to the courts.

1312
01:12:50,800 --> 01:12:52,800
Speaker 1: You know, you could argue the courts never should have

1313
01:12:52,840 --> 01:12:54,800
Speaker 1: been involved with this. If we had, you know, any

1314
01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:57,840
Speaker 1: other system, you would have just had this past legislatively.

1315
01:13:00,720 --> 01:13:05,200
Speaker 1: What you know, how has that never really been pursued.

1316
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:09,160
Speaker 3: Seriously, Yeah, it's a it's a good question. I mean,

1317
01:13:09,200 --> 01:13:12,400
Speaker 3: there have been attempts. And by the way, Chuck, you

1318
01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:14,599
Speaker 3: were right. The original Ruby Wade was seven to.

1319
01:13:14,520 --> 01:13:15,920
Speaker 2: Two two.

1320
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:19,720
Speaker 3: And so I mean the question of Congress, and it's

1321
01:13:19,760 --> 01:13:22,200
Speaker 3: so true, like the abortion rights struggle has always been

1322
01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:23,960
Speaker 3: in the states, right, And I think one of the

1323
01:13:23,960 --> 01:13:26,400
Speaker 3: fatal flaws for the abortion rights movement is they did

1324
01:13:26,439 --> 01:13:28,960
Speaker 3: not have a huge amount of investment. No one on

1325
01:13:29,040 --> 01:13:31,840
Speaker 3: the progressive side of the equation really had a huge

1326
01:13:32,360 --> 01:13:35,400
Speaker 3: investment in state legislatures. Right. There was much more focus

1327
01:13:35,479 --> 01:13:38,639
Speaker 3: on Washington, d c. And there was very little happening

1328
01:13:38,720 --> 01:13:39,280
Speaker 3: in cong.

1329
01:13:39,240 --> 01:13:42,759
Speaker 1: The conservative movement has been exact opposite. They have, starting

1330
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:45,960
Speaker 1: in the late seventies, been very focused on the states.

1331
01:13:46,120 --> 01:13:50,479
Speaker 1: You know, is something called go pack exactly in the

1332
01:13:50,520 --> 01:13:52,559
Speaker 1: old New Gingrid era, but anyway, go ahead.

1333
01:13:52,439 --> 01:13:53,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

1334
01:13:53,439 --> 01:13:55,559
Speaker 3: And that's where you know, I mean, we're talking about

1335
01:13:55,720 --> 01:13:59,160
Speaker 3: hundreds more than a thousand, you know, policies coming out

1336
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:02,839
Speaker 3: of state legislators that chip away at people's access to abortion,

1337
01:14:03,200 --> 01:14:06,280
Speaker 3: and basically the abortion rights movement saying well, we'll have

1338
01:14:06,320 --> 01:14:09,040
Speaker 3: to fight those in court, right, I mean starting eventually,

1339
01:14:09,040 --> 01:14:11,360
Speaker 3: you know, the High Amendment. Eventually they they thought, if

1340
01:14:11,400 --> 01:14:13,000
Speaker 3: we can't stop this in Congress, we're going to have

1341
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:15,719
Speaker 3: to fight it in court. And that strategy worked until

1342
01:14:15,720 --> 01:14:18,360
Speaker 3: it didn't. Didn't work with the High Amendment, didn't work

1343
01:14:18,360 --> 01:14:18,800
Speaker 3: with Roe v.

1344
01:14:18,880 --> 01:14:19,200
Speaker 2: Wade.

1345
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:21,240
Speaker 3: You know, it took them fifty years, but that fell

1346
01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:24,640
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty two. There were moments that I revisited

1347
01:14:24,640 --> 01:14:27,519
Speaker 3: where this issue came up in Congress and where you know,

1348
01:14:27,800 --> 01:14:32,040
Speaker 3: Democrats in Congress with a Democratic administration actually had an

1349
01:14:32,080 --> 01:14:35,160
Speaker 3: opportunity to codify Roe v. Wade until on I look

1350
01:14:35,200 --> 01:14:37,840
Speaker 3: at why didn't that happen when it could have? There

1351
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:41,160
Speaker 3: was one moment in the nineteen nineties where there was

1352
01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:44,519
Speaker 3: a possibility it could happen, and where basically there were

1353
01:14:44,520 --> 01:14:48,400
Speaker 3: disagreements within the abortion rights movement over who do we

1354
01:14:48,439 --> 01:14:51,719
Speaker 3: include in codifying the right to abortion? Do we include

1355
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:55,000
Speaker 3: young people? Do we include people who are on medicaid?

1356
01:14:55,479 --> 01:14:59,040
Speaker 3: Do we try to you know, protect everyone's rights or

1357
01:14:59,120 --> 01:15:01,519
Speaker 3: do we only protect you know, the bare minimum?

1358
01:15:01,640 --> 01:15:05,479
Speaker 1: And what you're describing is you know what you know,

1359
01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:08,559
Speaker 1: how they what fell through and they had they lost

1360
01:15:08,560 --> 01:15:11,000
Speaker 1: Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins when there was an attempt

1361
01:15:11,080 --> 01:15:14,120
Speaker 1: to do that in the Senate. And that's the question,

1362
01:15:14,200 --> 01:15:18,080
Speaker 1: are you codifying Row right or are you codifying the

1363
01:15:18,200 --> 01:15:21,400
Speaker 1: right right? Right?

1364
01:15:21,520 --> 01:15:23,840
Speaker 2: And and we saw this happen, you know, I mean,

1365
01:15:23,880 --> 01:15:25,200
Speaker 2: and the problem is, right.

1366
01:15:25,320 --> 01:15:30,080
Speaker 3: You don't have this sort of vociferous dedication to this

1367
01:15:30,200 --> 01:15:32,960
Speaker 3: issue on the Democratic side across the board that you

1368
01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:36,800
Speaker 3: do for Republicans who see what a brilliant opportunity it

1369
01:15:36,880 --> 01:15:39,840
Speaker 3: is for them to restrict abortion and rile up this,

1370
01:15:41,000 --> 01:15:44,000
Speaker 3: you know, contingent of their base that they need for that.

1371
01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:47,439
Speaker 3: And so there's disagreements within the abortion rights movement about

1372
01:15:47,479 --> 01:15:50,040
Speaker 3: how to contend with the weak support that they get

1373
01:15:50,080 --> 01:15:54,599
Speaker 3: from Democrats relatively speaking. And we saw this happen again

1374
01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:57,240
Speaker 3: with the Affordable Care Act, right where abortions became this

1375
01:15:57,400 --> 01:16:01,240
Speaker 3: scapegoat around the Affordable Care Act. And Obama, who had

1376
01:16:01,240 --> 01:16:03,920
Speaker 3: come into office promising to sign the Freedom of Choice

1377
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:07,320
Speaker 3: Act to caudify Row, then when he gets there says,

1378
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:09,599
Speaker 3: that's not my priority. You know, I want to pass

1379
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:13,439
Speaker 3: his healthcare law. And you know, while that law was

1380
01:16:13,479 --> 01:16:16,519
Speaker 3: an incredible you know, expanded healthcare to millions of people

1381
01:16:16,560 --> 01:16:19,360
Speaker 3: who didn't have it on the abortion rights issue in particular,

1382
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:22,160
Speaker 3: it was seen as a step backwards because of the so.

1383
01:16:22,240 --> 01:16:25,040
Speaker 1: Called look I had to cover that hour by hour

1384
01:16:25,479 --> 01:16:28,200
Speaker 1: when these negotiations were taking place. It was the so

1385
01:16:28,360 --> 01:16:33,840
Speaker 1: called Stupak Amendment, a pro life democrat from Michigan who

1386
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:36,439
Speaker 1: was sort of pro union pro you know, it was

1387
01:16:36,479 --> 01:16:40,479
Speaker 1: one of those that Catholic democrats from the seventies that

1388
01:16:40,560 --> 01:16:44,160
Speaker 1: you described, and they needed his vote and they came

1389
01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:47,439
Speaker 1: up with this convoluted executive order I believe that that

1390
01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:49,880
Speaker 1: Obama signed in order to get Stupac on.

1391
01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:52,400
Speaker 2: Board exactly exactly.

1392
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:55,160
Speaker 3: And so you know, the silver lining of that is

1393
01:16:55,160 --> 01:16:58,559
Speaker 3: that for abortion rights activists, especially those who were younger

1394
01:16:58,560 --> 01:17:01,160
Speaker 3: and sort of outside the hill, outside the sort of

1395
01:17:01,160 --> 01:17:03,880
Speaker 3: center of political power, that was a real catalyzing moment

1396
01:17:03,880 --> 01:17:06,360
Speaker 3: for them to say they're going to escapegoat abortion. While

1397
01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:08,280
Speaker 3: they do this, we might as well just go for

1398
01:17:08,320 --> 01:17:10,519
Speaker 3: it and call for repealing the High Amendment. And they

1399
01:17:10,600 --> 01:17:13,160
Speaker 3: form this sort of long shot campaign to do just that,

1400
01:17:13,560 --> 01:17:16,200
Speaker 3: which I talk about as I think the greatest unsung

1401
01:17:16,280 --> 01:17:18,840
Speaker 3: success story that the abortion rights movement has had in

1402
01:17:18,880 --> 01:17:19,479
Speaker 3: a generation.

1403
01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:20,519
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a really.

1404
01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:23,759
Speaker 3: Remarkable story of how they got people including Joe Biden

1405
01:17:23,840 --> 01:17:25,920
Speaker 3: to talk about the High Amendment and how it needed

1406
01:17:25,960 --> 01:17:26,200
Speaker 3: to go.

1407
01:17:27,200 --> 01:17:30,360
Speaker 1: Well, if you know, is that the beginning of the

1408
01:17:30,400 --> 01:17:33,840
Speaker 1: abortion rights side basically saying, all right, you guys wrote

1409
01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:38,120
Speaker 1: the playbook, we'll use your playbook, and we'll start chipping

1410
01:17:38,439 --> 01:17:40,640
Speaker 1: sort of chip instead of chipping away. I guess this

1411
01:17:40,760 --> 01:17:43,439
Speaker 1: is rebuilding the rights while brick by brick.

1412
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:45,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.

1413
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:48,679
Speaker 3: I mean, I think what I would argue is that, yes,

1414
01:17:48,840 --> 01:17:51,760
Speaker 3: there needs to be incremental progress, and we are seeing that.

1415
01:17:51,840 --> 01:17:56,280
Speaker 3: You know, I talk about the activists in Texas who

1416
01:17:56,439 --> 01:17:59,640
Speaker 3: bring forward legislation to restore full reproductive freedom there even

1417
01:17:59,680 --> 01:18:01,920
Speaker 3: though they know it won't pass. Okay, that's an example

1418
01:18:01,960 --> 01:18:05,200
Speaker 3: of an incremental you know, you introduce legislation, you know

1419
01:18:05,240 --> 01:18:06,960
Speaker 3: it's not going to happen, but you keep doing it,

1420
01:18:07,040 --> 01:18:09,720
Speaker 3: and you keep doing it, and you know, years from

1421
01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:13,280
Speaker 3: now it finally tips to scales. But I also think

1422
01:18:13,360 --> 01:18:15,839
Speaker 3: like that the way that the anti abortion movement succeeded

1423
01:18:15,960 --> 01:18:18,760
Speaker 3: wasn't just the incremental legal approach, right, That's where we

1424
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:22,160
Speaker 3: get the most attention, because of course that's what eventually

1425
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:25,920
Speaker 3: resulted in the Supreme Court decision. But they also had

1426
01:18:26,240 --> 01:18:30,880
Speaker 3: radical and even extreme militant you know, factions within their movement.

1427
01:18:30,920 --> 01:18:34,000
Speaker 3: They had Operation Risk You that was bringing the you know,

1428
01:18:34,200 --> 01:18:37,280
Speaker 3: thousands of people. Randall Terry, who I interviewed for the book,

1429
01:18:37,320 --> 01:18:41,280
Speaker 3: had a fascinating run in with him. You know. They

1430
01:18:41,320 --> 01:18:45,480
Speaker 3: they had their militants, they had their you know, their radicals,

1431
01:18:45,640 --> 01:18:48,360
Speaker 3: and you know, they had a long term vision. And

1432
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:50,120
Speaker 3: so I think you need all of it, you know,

1433
01:18:50,160 --> 01:18:52,200
Speaker 3: I don't think it's an either or, And I think

1434
01:18:52,400 --> 01:18:56,120
Speaker 3: the abortion rights movement often has you know, planned parenthood

1435
01:18:56,120 --> 01:18:59,080
Speaker 3: has had a hugely dominant role in the movement and

1436
01:18:59,200 --> 01:19:01,920
Speaker 3: has relied on strategy of protecting its own health centers,

1437
01:19:01,920 --> 01:19:05,800
Speaker 3: which provide you know, essential services to many. There's often

1438
01:19:05,840 --> 01:19:10,120
Speaker 3: been a focus on defending abortion through the courts versus

1439
01:19:10,120 --> 01:19:13,160
Speaker 3: having a grassroots state by state strategy. And I do

1440
01:19:13,240 --> 01:19:15,760
Speaker 3: think you're starting to see more boldness. I do think

1441
01:19:15,760 --> 01:19:18,320
Speaker 3: you're starting to see more radical thinking on the abortion

1442
01:19:18,479 --> 01:19:21,639
Speaker 3: right side now that the constitutional right to abortion is gone,

1443
01:19:21,640 --> 01:19:24,519
Speaker 3: because there's this recognition that came too late that the

1444
01:19:24,560 --> 01:19:29,200
Speaker 3: courts are not going to protect or expand this right.

1445
01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:39,200
Speaker 1: Would there be a federalist society without rope.

1446
01:19:41,200 --> 01:19:42,479
Speaker 2: That's a great question.

1447
01:19:43,320 --> 01:19:45,760
Speaker 3: I mean, I think they would find other quibbles with like,

1448
01:19:45,960 --> 01:19:49,919
Speaker 3: you know, women's participation in public life even.

1449
01:19:50,439 --> 01:19:52,080
Speaker 1: Well, the reason I said is, I think the whole

1450
01:19:52,120 --> 01:19:55,800
Speaker 1: reason we got a federal society, yeah, right, where they

1451
01:19:55,920 --> 01:19:58,920
Speaker 1: wanted to no longer have the ABA as sort of

1452
01:19:58,920 --> 01:20:02,880
Speaker 1: the vetter of things that they wanted a conservative vetting,

1453
01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:08,639
Speaker 1: not a legal vetting on expertise. And you know it's

1454
01:20:08,680 --> 01:20:12,439
Speaker 1: you know, basically there's been two sort of one would

1455
01:20:12,520 --> 01:20:16,040
Speaker 1: argue very radical schools of thought on trying to deal

1456
01:20:16,080 --> 01:20:19,960
Speaker 1: with certain legal issues, one on guns and one on abortion.

1457
01:20:20,080 --> 01:20:25,879
Speaker 1: That all these legal arguments basically came through Federalist Society

1458
01:20:27,720 --> 01:20:29,880
Speaker 1: meetings and organizations and trainings.

1459
01:20:30,520 --> 01:20:34,320
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and Leonard Leo effectively you know, handed Trump the

1460
01:20:34,400 --> 01:20:36,439
Speaker 3: names that he knew we're going to overturn Roe v.

1461
01:20:36,520 --> 01:20:39,080
Speaker 2: Wade, and you know, here we are.

1462
01:20:40,400 --> 01:20:42,679
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess one thing that's super interesting about

1463
01:20:42,760 --> 01:20:45,960
Speaker 3: organizations like that and Alliance Defending Freedom is in this

1464
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:49,719
Speaker 3: category as well. You know, you said that the abortion

1465
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:53,040
Speaker 3: rights movement can copy the anti abortion playbook, but you know,

1466
01:20:53,120 --> 01:20:55,280
Speaker 3: part of the way that the anti abortion movement got

1467
01:20:55,320 --> 01:20:58,720
Speaker 3: where it is today is by copying their enemies playbook, right,

1468
01:20:59,320 --> 01:21:02,439
Speaker 3: I mean, I spoke to the conservative architect Richard Vigory

1469
01:21:02,680 --> 01:21:04,760
Speaker 3: for this, you figured out how to raise money through

1470
01:21:04,800 --> 01:21:05,439
Speaker 3: direct mail.

1471
01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:08,920
Speaker 1: He was and arguably the the you know, if you

1472
01:21:09,000 --> 01:21:12,000
Speaker 1: hate if you hate direct mail fundraising, if you hate

1473
01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:13,800
Speaker 1: email fundraising, you can blame Richard Vigory.

1474
01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:16,760
Speaker 3: Right, Yes, Roger Craber, who I also talked to his

1475
01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:19,439
Speaker 3: you know, jenemy and your friend on the other.

1476
01:21:19,320 --> 01:21:22,000
Speaker 1: Side, old friend or the late Roger.

1477
01:21:23,439 --> 01:21:26,559
Speaker 3: It's hilarious to revisit a time when like these letters

1478
01:21:26,600 --> 01:21:28,600
Speaker 3: they were sending asking people for money were like this

1479
01:21:28,720 --> 01:21:31,640
Speaker 3: controversial new technology. It was like, oh my gosh, what

1480
01:21:31,680 --> 01:21:35,000
Speaker 3: are they doing, you know, and now they just go

1481
01:21:35,040 --> 01:21:39,040
Speaker 3: into the recycling bin. But but yeah, they they copied

1482
01:21:39,040 --> 01:21:41,560
Speaker 3: the playbook of the civil rights movement. They copied the

1483
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:45,360
Speaker 3: rhetoric they call themselves, you know. And and Jennifer Holland

1484
01:21:45,360 --> 01:21:48,439
Speaker 3: talks about the civil Rights movement for white people, which

1485
01:21:48,479 --> 01:21:51,680
Speaker 3: was the civil Rights Movement for fetuses, and how you know,

1486
01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:54,600
Speaker 3: when civil rights activists were saying, hey, we need to

1487
01:21:54,600 --> 01:21:58,000
Speaker 3: talk about you know, white supremacy, and white conservatives didn't

1488
01:21:58,000 --> 01:22:01,120
Speaker 3: want to do that. Instead, they created their own sort

1489
01:22:01,160 --> 01:22:04,240
Speaker 3: of imitation civil rights movement where they were championing the

1490
01:22:04,320 --> 01:22:06,759
Speaker 3: rights of the fetus, and they co opted the language

1491
01:22:06,760 --> 01:22:09,800
Speaker 3: I mean right to life, you know, and they saw

1492
01:22:09,880 --> 01:22:12,439
Speaker 3: themselves as civil rights activists. They ran clips of Martin

1493
01:22:12,520 --> 01:22:15,879
Speaker 3: Luther King, you know, they believed that they were carrying

1494
01:22:15,920 --> 01:22:19,680
Speaker 3: on the great civil rights struggle of their time. And so,

1495
01:22:20,080 --> 01:22:21,599
Speaker 3: you know, I think the other side has really been

1496
01:22:21,720 --> 01:22:26,360
Speaker 3: masters of copying the playbook of and you know, Alliance

1497
01:22:26,400 --> 01:22:28,960
Speaker 3: Defending Freedom, which ultimately brought the case that you know,

1498
01:22:29,400 --> 01:22:31,680
Speaker 3: designed the legal strategy that overturned Roe v.

1499
01:22:31,800 --> 01:22:32,040
Speaker 1: Wade.

1500
01:22:32,120 --> 01:22:33,840
Speaker 2: You know, they were a response.

1501
01:22:33,400 --> 01:22:39,040
Speaker 3: To the ACLU and to left leaning legal power, and

1502
01:22:39,160 --> 01:22:41,080
Speaker 3: so a lot of how he got here is through

1503
01:22:41,120 --> 01:22:47,000
Speaker 3: reactionary strategies. And I think, you know, the abortion rights

1504
01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:49,679
Speaker 3: and left side has not always been as good at

1505
01:22:49,880 --> 01:22:51,559
Speaker 3: observing and learning from the enemy.

1506
01:22:52,240 --> 01:22:55,679
Speaker 1: So ultimately, a right that a large majority of Americans

1507
01:22:55,680 --> 01:23:01,800
Speaker 1: believe should exist was over turned in a fifty year campaign. So,

1508
01:23:02,479 --> 01:23:08,400
Speaker 1: if you were to line up five entities responsible for this,

1509
01:23:11,160 --> 01:23:14,640
Speaker 1: are there anybody on the pro abortion right side that

1510
01:23:14,760 --> 01:23:15,479
Speaker 1: belonged there?

1511
01:23:17,040 --> 01:23:17,200
Speaker 3: Wait?

1512
01:23:17,320 --> 01:23:18,960
Speaker 2: Say it again, if you were to line know, if you.

1513
01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:21,479
Speaker 1: To line up, say the five entities, whether it's people

1514
01:23:21,600 --> 01:23:24,280
Speaker 1: or groups that you would say, hey, they deserve credit.

1515
01:23:24,360 --> 01:23:25,840
Speaker 1: Or blame however you want to look at this, but

1516
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:29,000
Speaker 1: for you know, for the overturning of dots, for taking

1517
01:23:29,000 --> 01:23:31,959
Speaker 1: away this right. Is it only people who are advocating

1518
01:23:31,960 --> 01:23:34,360
Speaker 1: to take this right or are there people who in

1519
01:23:34,439 --> 01:23:36,720
Speaker 1: theory didn't want to see the right go away who

1520
01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:38,160
Speaker 1: also belong on this list?

1521
01:23:38,960 --> 01:23:39,200
Speaker 2: Oh?

1522
01:23:39,240 --> 01:23:43,080
Speaker 3: Absolutely absolutely, And that's why you know, I'm in my

1523
01:23:43,400 --> 01:23:46,240
Speaker 3: like Miss Marple approach to figuring out who did it

1524
01:23:46,320 --> 01:23:49,240
Speaker 3: and why. That's why I talk to people on both sides.

1525
01:23:49,360 --> 01:23:53,280
Speaker 3: And I went after, you know, everyone I could talk

1526
01:23:53,320 --> 01:23:56,160
Speaker 3: to who had been there on the abortion right side,

1527
01:23:56,320 --> 01:23:59,320
Speaker 3: you know, the people who were heads of NAYRAL, of

1528
01:23:59,360 --> 01:24:01,280
Speaker 3: the National Organization for Women.

1529
01:24:01,920 --> 01:24:02,959
Speaker 2: Of Planned Parenthood.

1530
01:24:03,040 --> 01:24:04,880
Speaker 3: I went and talked with fay Watleton, it was Planned

1531
01:24:04,880 --> 01:24:08,200
Speaker 3: Parenthood president starting in nineteen seventy eight, and I asked

1532
01:24:08,240 --> 01:24:10,439
Speaker 3: them all some version of the same question, which is like,

1533
01:24:10,479 --> 01:24:13,160
Speaker 3: what keeps you up at night? What could you have

1534
01:24:13,200 --> 01:24:17,120
Speaker 3: done differently? And some people didn't want to take responsibility

1535
01:24:17,160 --> 01:24:18,120
Speaker 3: and some people did.

1536
01:24:18,320 --> 01:24:18,519
Speaker 2: You know.

1537
01:24:18,560 --> 01:24:21,519
Speaker 3: Of course they disagreed about exactly what could have been

1538
01:24:21,560 --> 01:24:26,200
Speaker 3: done differently, but I think that they're and look, the

1539
01:24:26,280 --> 01:24:29,000
Speaker 3: other issue is they were under resource for what they

1540
01:24:29,040 --> 01:24:35,720
Speaker 3: needed to do. And consistently outflanked by their opponents. So

1541
01:24:35,840 --> 01:24:38,800
Speaker 3: but I do think you need to look at organizations

1542
01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:42,320
Speaker 3: like Nayralan Planned Parenthood and what you know, complicity they have.

1543
01:24:42,439 --> 01:24:46,320
Speaker 3: I mean, those were the two most influential organizations, and

1544
01:24:46,320 --> 01:24:49,040
Speaker 3: what decisions were made along the way that you know,

1545
01:24:49,439 --> 01:24:53,880
Speaker 3: in some way made this a cause that more people

1546
01:24:53,920 --> 01:24:56,240
Speaker 3: could support because they were narrowing the frame they were

1547
01:24:56,240 --> 01:24:59,280
Speaker 3: talking about choice, they were talking about just protecting Roe v.

1548
01:24:59,400 --> 01:25:03,240
Speaker 3: Wade rather than focusing on things like you know, young

1549
01:25:03,280 --> 01:25:09,080
Speaker 3: people and public funding. And yet there you know, there

1550
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:12,679
Speaker 3: was damage done as a result of those compromises as well.

1551
01:25:12,760 --> 01:25:14,680
Speaker 3: So yes, I think you have to look at at

1552
01:25:14,720 --> 01:25:16,439
Speaker 3: people on both sides of his struggle.

1553
01:25:19,120 --> 01:25:24,760
Speaker 1: Losing or feeling as if you're having to fight for

1554
01:25:24,920 --> 01:25:31,000
Speaker 1: something can be more galvanizing than defending something that's legal. Right,

1555
01:25:31,040 --> 01:25:33,760
Speaker 1: and that used to be one of the rationales. And

1556
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:36,320
Speaker 1: the assumption was, you know, why why was the right

1557
01:25:36,479 --> 01:25:39,760
Speaker 1: always more motivated by Supreme Court openings and elections than

1558
01:25:39,800 --> 01:25:40,160
Speaker 1: the left?

1559
01:25:40,240 --> 01:25:40,360
Speaker 3: Right?

1560
01:25:40,400 --> 01:25:42,920
Speaker 1: I one of my great you know, I love I

1561
01:25:42,960 --> 01:25:46,120
Speaker 1: love butterfly effects with history and you know, like the

1562
01:25:46,200 --> 01:25:50,439
Speaker 1: use of one thing had changed, and you know, had

1563
01:25:50,479 --> 01:25:54,160
Speaker 1: Scalia lived, I don't think Donald Trump becomes president. It's

1564
01:25:54,200 --> 01:25:59,320
Speaker 1: just one of my thess because the right, there were

1565
01:25:59,360 --> 01:26:01,800
Speaker 1: people that didn't like Trump's character, who held their nose

1566
01:26:01,880 --> 01:26:05,280
Speaker 1: because it issue matters to them so much. Who's on

1567
01:26:05,320 --> 01:26:09,040
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court matters to them so much. Even in

1568
01:26:09,080 --> 01:26:11,360
Speaker 1: the wake of losing Dobbs. I think there was an

1569
01:26:11,400 --> 01:26:14,639
Speaker 1: assumption I had it there was some evidence in pulling

1570
01:26:14,680 --> 01:26:18,680
Speaker 1: it would be there that the single mindedness that we

1571
01:26:18,760 --> 01:26:21,880
Speaker 1: saw on the right about this issue would basically transform

1572
01:26:21,920 --> 01:26:26,400
Speaker 1: itself and become a single mindedness on the left. We're

1573
01:26:26,400 --> 01:26:28,280
Speaker 1: not seeing that. Why do you think that is?

1574
01:26:29,360 --> 01:26:33,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have to say I shared that misapprehension as well,

1575
01:26:33,920 --> 01:26:36,960
Speaker 3: which is why I put myself in the position of

1576
01:26:37,000 --> 01:26:39,880
Speaker 3: being in Amarillo, Texas, in a room full of Trump

1577
01:26:39,920 --> 01:26:48,280
Speaker 3: supporters on election day, because I was interesting choice. I

1578
01:26:48,320 --> 01:26:53,240
Speaker 3: went down there thinking I was so confident that anyway,

1579
01:26:54,160 --> 01:26:56,920
Speaker 3: I did have another prediction that turned out to be true,

1580
01:26:56,960 --> 01:26:59,600
Speaker 3: which was there was an anti abortion ordinance on the

1581
01:26:59,640 --> 01:27:04,400
Speaker 3: ballot in Amarillo, and that anti abortion ordinance failed in

1582
01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:07,439
Speaker 3: this super conservative area in Texas, even though, of course

1583
01:27:07,520 --> 01:27:10,479
Speaker 3: Trump was elected, and so the activists I happened to

1584
01:27:10,479 --> 01:27:13,200
Speaker 3: be spending time with were actually super depressed, you know,

1585
01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:15,640
Speaker 3: for that reason, because they've been working very hard on

1586
01:27:15,720 --> 01:27:18,840
Speaker 3: this ordinance, I mean, And that disconnect, I think tells

1587
01:27:18,880 --> 01:27:21,800
Speaker 3: you a lot, right about the fact that even in

1588
01:27:21,840 --> 01:27:26,160
Speaker 3: this super conservative area, this pretty extreme ordinance that was

1589
01:27:26,200 --> 01:27:28,960
Speaker 3: trying to stop people from leaving the state of Texas

1590
01:27:28,960 --> 01:27:29,479
Speaker 3: to get abortion.

1591
01:27:30,280 --> 01:27:32,200
Speaker 1: You couldn't leave the county, right or something like this.

1592
01:27:32,439 --> 01:27:34,840
Speaker 3: Right didn't want people and people were passing through the

1593
01:27:34,880 --> 01:27:38,519
Speaker 3: Texas can get so they were. It was this kind

1594
01:27:38,560 --> 01:27:43,320
Speaker 3: I mean, really to restrict people driving to abortion clinics

1595
01:27:43,439 --> 01:27:45,680
Speaker 3: or ordering pills through the mail. It's very hard to

1596
01:27:45,800 --> 01:27:51,559
Speaker 3: stop the unstoppable unless you resort to pretty draconian scenarios.

1597
01:27:50,920 --> 01:27:51,960
Speaker 2: And this was one of them.

1598
01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:55,599
Speaker 3: It was defeated, And so I was talking to as

1599
01:27:55,640 --> 01:27:57,839
Speaker 3: many people as I could in the parking lot outside

1600
01:27:57,840 --> 01:28:00,880
Speaker 3: these polling places, and some of them had indeed voted

1601
01:28:00,920 --> 01:28:04,600
Speaker 3: against this ordinance, right, so effectively in support of you know,

1602
01:28:05,120 --> 01:28:08,840
Speaker 3: limited abortion rights and voting for Trump, you know.

1603
01:28:09,520 --> 01:28:11,680
Speaker 2: And part of it, I.

1604
01:28:11,640 --> 01:28:15,000
Speaker 3: Think is that Trump had convinced some number of voters

1605
01:28:15,000 --> 01:28:17,160
Speaker 3: that he was a moderate on the abortion issue.

1606
01:28:17,960 --> 01:28:19,880
Speaker 2: He had convinced some number Look what he.

1607
01:28:19,880 --> 01:28:21,400
Speaker 1: Did in Florida, I mean, it was sort of you

1608
01:28:21,439 --> 01:28:25,000
Speaker 1: know his that you know, you know, it's funny. It's

1609
01:28:25,040 --> 01:28:27,559
Speaker 1: just like, you know, it's the there's that Joe Biden saying,

1610
01:28:27,600 --> 01:28:30,320
Speaker 1: don't judge me by the Almighty, judge me by the alternative.

1611
01:28:31,280 --> 01:28:33,960
Speaker 1: And this is a case where Trump took advantage of

1612
01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:38,679
Speaker 1: the alternative. Boy, this six week ballot initiative is so extreme,

1613
01:28:38,720 --> 01:28:42,000
Speaker 1: I don't know who could support that. Well, it looked

1614
01:28:42,040 --> 01:28:45,599
Speaker 1: moderate because he was to the left of Ron de Santus, right.

1615
01:28:45,800 --> 01:28:48,519
Speaker 2: Right right, which worked with a certain number of people.

1616
01:28:48,560 --> 01:28:50,920
Speaker 3: I think, and I mean, I think the other issue

1617
01:28:50,920 --> 01:28:53,840
Speaker 3: going on, it was fascinating to watch the abortion rights

1618
01:28:53,840 --> 01:28:56,800
Speaker 3: activists and their strategy on the ground in Amillo. They

1619
01:28:56,800 --> 01:28:59,240
Speaker 3: were basically copying the other side's playbook. They were trying

1620
01:28:59,240 --> 01:29:01,360
Speaker 3: to make abortions like a conservative issue.

1621
01:29:01,920 --> 01:29:05,080
Speaker 1: Right, don't let the government tell you what to do, right, Yes.

1622
01:29:04,920 --> 01:29:05,639
Speaker 2: Get the government.

1623
01:29:05,680 --> 01:29:08,360
Speaker 3: The government's trying to make a travel ban here. You know,

1624
01:29:08,360 --> 01:29:11,719
Speaker 3: they're coming for your guns, except it's reproductive freedom.

1625
01:29:12,439 --> 01:29:13,439
Speaker 2: And it worked.

1626
01:29:13,439 --> 01:29:15,559
Speaker 3: And I but I think that there's you know, a

1627
01:29:15,640 --> 01:29:18,880
Speaker 3: downside to framing abortion as a conservative issue. Yes, it

1628
01:29:18,920 --> 01:29:23,040
Speaker 3: means you can win on the single issue with conservative voters.

1629
01:29:23,280 --> 01:29:26,120
Speaker 1: But let me. Let me push back on. Let me

1630
01:29:26,120 --> 01:29:28,240
Speaker 1: push back in a second, because this is where I

1631
01:29:28,280 --> 01:29:31,519
Speaker 1: get frustrated. The word freedom is not a conservative word, right,

1632
01:29:32,120 --> 01:29:37,280
Speaker 1: but the conservatives have more successfully used the word and

1633
01:29:37,320 --> 01:29:39,920
Speaker 1: marketed the word as a you know, you see the

1634
01:29:39,920 --> 01:29:43,559
Speaker 1: words freedom and patriot right, and automatically there's this assumption

1635
01:29:43,640 --> 01:29:45,280
Speaker 1: that they're trying to appeal to the right. And I'm

1636
01:29:45,320 --> 01:29:48,080
Speaker 1: sitting here going, hey, I'm a patriot, I'm for freedom.

1637
01:29:48,120 --> 01:29:52,599
Speaker 1: I don't know who you know, you know, and and

1638
01:29:52,640 --> 01:29:54,680
Speaker 1: it is not lost on me. I mean, Kansas was

1639
01:29:54,720 --> 01:29:59,640
Speaker 1: another example of this. We're using these same sort of

1640
01:30:00,040 --> 01:30:02,639
Speaker 1: keep the government out of you know, the same arguments

1641
01:30:02,680 --> 01:30:06,559
Speaker 1: the right makes on guns. Make it the same thing

1642
01:30:06,600 --> 01:30:13,479
Speaker 1: about your personal autonomy and the argument, I mean, the

1643
01:30:13,520 --> 01:30:15,559
Speaker 1: good news is it shows you people are not like

1644
01:30:15,960 --> 01:30:19,000
Speaker 1: you know people actually, you know, we think everybody has

1645
01:30:19,000 --> 01:30:20,840
Speaker 1: a group think. Now, when you frame it this way,

1646
01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:23,800
Speaker 1: people do start to personalize. Well, let me put this

1647
01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:26,080
Speaker 1: in my shoes. And I think that's why you get

1648
01:30:26,080 --> 01:30:29,519
Speaker 1: the numbers that you get on this issue. Is this

1649
01:30:29,640 --> 01:30:33,080
Speaker 1: not the playbook? Go with the freedom the freedom messaging

1650
01:30:33,960 --> 01:30:35,920
Speaker 1: and the and the autonomy messaging.

1651
01:30:36,280 --> 01:30:39,639
Speaker 3: It worked, you know, it worked, and defeating that ordinance.

1652
01:30:40,080 --> 01:30:42,559
Speaker 3: You know, it was the message that that you know,

1653
01:30:42,600 --> 01:30:45,240
Speaker 3: and it certainly wasn't the first time that it had

1654
01:30:45,520 --> 01:30:50,400
Speaker 3: been used successfully. But then, you know, is there a

1655
01:30:50,479 --> 01:30:54,439
Speaker 3: downside and then giving people permission to vote in line

1656
01:30:54,479 --> 01:30:56,680
Speaker 3: with their conservative politics and other issues?

1657
01:30:57,000 --> 01:30:57,200
Speaker 1: Right?

1658
01:30:57,320 --> 01:31:00,599
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's an interest one question.

1659
01:31:01,200 --> 01:31:06,280
Speaker 1: This is right. It's having personal rights be up for

1660
01:31:06,360 --> 01:31:09,559
Speaker 1: debate versus right. This was arguably the whole point of

1661
01:31:09,560 --> 01:31:13,400
Speaker 1: the constitution, right, so that we didn't have elections, constant

1662
01:31:13,400 --> 01:31:15,120
Speaker 1: elections to determine, well, do you have a right to

1663
01:31:15,120 --> 01:31:17,240
Speaker 1: speech this year or not? You know, that's what I think?

1664
01:31:18,080 --> 01:31:22,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, oh yeah, that document. Sometimes you forget about

1665
01:31:22,680 --> 01:31:25,080
Speaker 3: it these days, right, I know, I.

1666
01:31:25,040 --> 01:31:27,559
Speaker 1: Just wish I remember Congress would read it once, you know,

1667
01:31:27,800 --> 01:31:31,920
Speaker 1: realize where Article one sits. But I but I digress.

1668
01:31:32,000 --> 01:31:39,559
Speaker 1: So where if I three years ago I was pretty

1669
01:31:39,600 --> 01:31:43,360
Speaker 1: confident that the right to abortion would be an all

1670
01:31:43,400 --> 01:31:48,439
Speaker 1: fifty states by the start of the twenty thirties, why

1671
01:31:48,439 --> 01:31:50,080
Speaker 1: am I less convinced that it's going to be the case.

1672
01:31:51,600 --> 01:31:53,439
Speaker 2: Why are you less convinced that it's going Yeah?

1673
01:31:53,439 --> 01:31:56,080
Speaker 1: And I feel like your book only frankly reinforces my

1674
01:31:56,760 --> 01:31:59,960
Speaker 1: newfound skepticism that, oh, is the public going to start

1675
01:32:00,080 --> 01:32:03,759
Speaker 1: to tolerate this or accept this or sort of decide

1676
01:32:03,800 --> 01:32:06,280
Speaker 1: not to fight this, or is this something that maybe

1677
01:32:06,320 --> 01:32:11,400
Speaker 1: when Trump goes away, this reanimates itself, right, Right.

1678
01:32:11,280 --> 01:32:13,599
Speaker 3: I mean, I think I don't want to overlook the

1679
01:32:13,600 --> 01:32:17,360
Speaker 3: fact that it is animating for a decent chunk of Americans.

1680
01:32:17,520 --> 01:32:17,640
Speaker 2: Right.

1681
01:32:17,880 --> 01:32:20,040
Speaker 3: I think that you know that one in four women

1682
01:32:20,080 --> 01:32:22,960
Speaker 3: will have an abortion in her lifetime. My friend, the

1683
01:32:23,000 --> 01:32:25,800
Speaker 3: activist Renee Bracy Sherman likes to say, everyone loves someone

1684
01:32:25,840 --> 01:32:29,519
Speaker 3: who's had an abortion, and so for those for those people,

1685
01:32:29,600 --> 01:32:33,320
Speaker 3: this is a live issue. This is never something that

1686
01:32:33,360 --> 01:32:37,240
Speaker 3: it is always top of mind. And I do think

1687
01:32:37,240 --> 01:32:39,439
Speaker 3: it was an issue in the twenty twenty four election, right,

1688
01:32:39,439 --> 01:32:41,439
Speaker 3: I know, because I sat in on focus groups, I

1689
01:32:41,479 --> 01:32:42,240
Speaker 3: talked to voters.

1690
01:32:42,240 --> 01:32:44,720
Speaker 2: It was something a lot of them were thinking about.

1691
01:32:46,120 --> 01:32:50,080
Speaker 2: But I don't know why it wasn't enough to tip

1692
01:32:50,120 --> 01:32:51,439
Speaker 2: the scales, right, I mean, when.

1693
01:32:51,320 --> 01:32:53,400
Speaker 1: He's already a pretty big gender gap. But I guess

1694
01:32:53,400 --> 01:32:55,559
Speaker 1: the gender gap wasn't big enough. I mean, there's still

1695
01:32:55,560 --> 01:33:00,800
Speaker 1: a significant chunk of women that do not share the

1696
01:33:01,439 --> 01:33:05,759
Speaker 1: share the same views on bodily autonomy as a majority

1697
01:33:05,760 --> 01:33:09,840
Speaker 1: of women do right right right, you.

1698
01:33:09,800 --> 01:33:13,000
Speaker 3: Know, and abortion was pulling as an important issue. You know,

1699
01:33:13,080 --> 01:33:16,639
Speaker 3: it certainly rose in importance for voters after the Dobs decision,

1700
01:33:17,560 --> 01:33:20,120
Speaker 3: but it didn't outweigh the economy. It didn't outweigh some

1701
01:33:20,160 --> 01:33:24,640
Speaker 3: of those other issues that people care about because it

1702
01:33:24,680 --> 01:33:28,080
Speaker 3: affects their day to day lives, which again abortion does

1703
01:33:28,120 --> 01:33:28,760
Speaker 3: too for a.

1704
01:33:28,680 --> 01:33:29,439
Speaker 2: Lot of people.

1705
01:33:29,800 --> 01:33:32,439
Speaker 3: I think, you know, I think potentially one you know,

1706
01:33:33,280 --> 01:33:36,280
Speaker 3: flaw in the Democrats strategy with this in twenty twenty

1707
01:33:36,320 --> 01:33:39,400
Speaker 3: four is again when you talk about just choice, when

1708
01:33:39,400 --> 01:33:41,360
Speaker 3: you talk about abortion, when you talk about it in

1709
01:33:41,439 --> 01:33:45,000
Speaker 3: isolation from other issues, you don't give people a framework

1710
01:33:45,040 --> 01:33:47,559
Speaker 3: to think about it as connected to the economy, as

1711
01:33:47,640 --> 01:33:51,040
Speaker 3: connected to you know, all of the other issues that

1712
01:33:51,120 --> 01:33:53,080
Speaker 3: they think about in their day to day lives, when

1713
01:33:53,120 --> 01:33:55,760
Speaker 3: in fact, it is when people are making decisions about

1714
01:33:55,800 --> 01:33:57,920
Speaker 3: the shape of their families based on how much money

1715
01:33:57,920 --> 01:34:00,960
Speaker 3: they have, on how much support the government is providing,

1716
01:34:00,960 --> 01:34:03,559
Speaker 3: on whether they can pay for childcare. Abortion is an

1717
01:34:03,600 --> 01:34:05,920
Speaker 3: economic issue, but I think the way that it gets

1718
01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:08,640
Speaker 3: talked about is again in that narrow choice framing. You know,

1719
01:34:08,680 --> 01:34:10,479
Speaker 3: this is just about the decision that you make and

1720
01:34:10,479 --> 01:34:12,960
Speaker 3: whether you can get to a clinic or not. And

1721
01:34:13,000 --> 01:34:15,080
Speaker 3: in fact, the way that people experience it is that

1722
01:34:15,120 --> 01:34:17,679
Speaker 3: it's part of the sort of fabric of how they

1723
01:34:18,080 --> 01:34:20,439
Speaker 3: you know, shape their lives, who they choose to live with,

1724
01:34:20,680 --> 01:34:22,960
Speaker 3: you know, what they choose for their work like this

1725
01:34:23,040 --> 01:34:25,960
Speaker 3: is this is not a decision that's made in isolation.

1726
01:34:27,320 --> 01:34:29,920
Speaker 3: And I think a lot of the way that it

1727
01:34:29,960 --> 01:34:32,160
Speaker 3: got talked about was sort of with these sort of

1728
01:34:32,280 --> 01:34:38,040
Speaker 3: narrow stories that were much more about abortion in isolation

1729
01:34:38,120 --> 01:34:40,080
Speaker 3: from the rest of people's experiences.

1730
01:34:40,520 --> 01:34:43,880
Speaker 1: Is there anything to learn from the fact that birth

1731
01:34:43,960 --> 01:34:48,200
Speaker 1: control is in some ways been taken off the political

1732
01:34:48,240 --> 01:34:48,840
Speaker 1: debate stage.

1733
01:34:50,360 --> 01:34:51,880
Speaker 2: Oh that's interesting, you know.

1734
01:34:52,240 --> 01:34:55,519
Speaker 1: In that look, we still have some fights over what

1735
01:34:55,560 --> 01:34:58,760
Speaker 1: do you do iud s or you know that going

1736
01:34:58,800 --> 01:35:02,519
Speaker 1: to get paid for? And A know I but you know,

1737
01:35:02,960 --> 01:35:06,880
Speaker 1: it's almost as if those that cared so much about

1738
01:35:07,080 --> 01:35:09,719
Speaker 1: getting rid of the right to abortion, we're willing to say, Okay,

1739
01:35:09,760 --> 01:35:11,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to be It was always the you know,

1740
01:35:11,920 --> 01:35:14,040
Speaker 1: I remember Bobby Jindall, I'm going to make birth control

1741
01:35:14,080 --> 01:35:19,439
Speaker 1: free over here in Louisiana. While we also want to

1742
01:35:19,479 --> 01:35:24,280
Speaker 1: advocate for not having a right to abortion. Is there

1743
01:35:24,680 --> 01:35:28,559
Speaker 1: is there anything to be learned from the fact that

1744
01:35:28,600 --> 01:35:33,160
Speaker 1: there is even greater support for birth control that the

1745
01:35:33,160 --> 01:35:36,320
Speaker 1: abortion rights movement can sort of draft off of.

1746
01:35:36,360 --> 01:35:39,400
Speaker 2: If that makes sense, you know, I'm glad it looks

1747
01:35:39,400 --> 01:35:40,120
Speaker 2: to you that way.

1748
01:35:40,400 --> 01:35:43,320
Speaker 3: I spend a lot of time for my job as

1749
01:35:43,360 --> 01:35:46,080
Speaker 3: a reporter hanging around with anti abortion activists.

1750
01:35:46,280 --> 01:35:48,479
Speaker 1: No. I know, the activist community still wants to get

1751
01:35:48,560 --> 01:35:50,439
Speaker 1: rid of birth control, but it doesn't have.

1752
01:35:50,400 --> 01:35:54,639
Speaker 3: A traction right right, right, But it's very live for them.

1753
01:35:54,680 --> 01:35:57,240
Speaker 3: I mean, that is their end goal, right. They think

1754
01:35:57,240 --> 01:35:59,800
Speaker 3: abortion should go. A healthy member of them think ib

1755
01:36:00,160 --> 01:36:05,120
Speaker 3: should go as well. But of course, you know, savvy

1756
01:36:05,200 --> 01:36:10,719
Speaker 3: politicians are more circumspect about that, you know, I mean again, listen,

1757
01:36:10,800 --> 01:36:13,479
Speaker 3: Richard Viggery. You know we just talked about and his

1758
01:36:13,640 --> 01:36:17,120
Speaker 3: ilk saw the way that they could make abortion specifically

1759
01:36:17,840 --> 01:36:21,760
Speaker 3: uh political issue and sort of manufactured it as a

1760
01:36:21,800 --> 01:36:26,000
Speaker 3: political issue that could rally strategically, could bring Catholics into

1761
01:36:26,040 --> 01:36:30,880
Speaker 3: their coalition, could bring social into their coalition exactly, and

1762
01:36:30,960 --> 01:36:33,600
Speaker 3: how are they going to get Catholics to to, you know,

1763
01:36:33,880 --> 01:36:35,880
Speaker 3: come into the fold of the Republican Party on the

1764
01:36:35,920 --> 01:36:39,479
Speaker 3: issue of abortion, right, And so they isolated it as

1765
01:36:39,479 --> 01:36:41,600
Speaker 3: a political issue, even though that's not how it is

1766
01:36:41,640 --> 01:36:44,240
Speaker 3: in human beings, real lives. Right, the issues of birth

1767
01:36:44,280 --> 01:36:47,200
Speaker 3: control abortion are.

1768
01:36:47,160 --> 01:36:50,400
Speaker 1: Intertwined, and that I've always thought, could could the could

1769
01:36:50,439 --> 01:36:54,880
Speaker 1: the Morning after pill become the parental notification of the

1770
01:36:54,920 --> 01:36:59,240
Speaker 1: abortion rights movement where where they're they're essentially the instead

1771
01:36:59,240 --> 01:37:02,160
Speaker 1: of the chip away the building that this is you know,

1772
01:37:02,200 --> 01:37:06,160
Speaker 1: as you know, and this goes to the whole should

1773
01:37:06,360 --> 01:37:08,800
Speaker 1: is it going to take you know, is it going

1774
01:37:08,840 --> 01:37:10,600
Speaker 1: to take fifty years to get the right back or

1775
01:37:10,600 --> 01:37:12,519
Speaker 1: maybe twenty five years to take the right back? Because

1776
01:37:12,560 --> 01:37:15,360
Speaker 1: this has to be this has to be methodical. It

1777
01:37:15,400 --> 01:37:17,080
Speaker 1: has to be sort of one brick at a time,

1778
01:37:17,760 --> 01:37:19,920
Speaker 1: because hoping that there will be a Congress that will

1779
01:37:19,960 --> 01:37:21,600
Speaker 1: do this and a president that'll sign it, that that

1780
01:37:21,680 --> 01:37:24,920
Speaker 1: actually that's just like buying scratch off or scratch off

1781
01:37:24,960 --> 01:37:28,959
Speaker 1: lottery tickets that you're better off at least making incremental progress.

1782
01:37:29,000 --> 01:37:33,920
Speaker 1: And the more you know, parental notification getting mainstreamed right

1783
01:37:34,320 --> 01:37:38,760
Speaker 1: kept the idea that abortion was controversial, right, meaning once

1784
01:37:38,800 --> 01:37:42,599
Speaker 1: you take away and there's an argument you made, if

1785
01:37:42,600 --> 01:37:45,360
Speaker 1: the Morning after pill became mainstream, then all of a

1786
01:37:45,360 --> 01:37:49,639
Speaker 1: sudden people see it, it's no longer it's less controversial, right,

1787
01:37:49,920 --> 01:37:52,759
Speaker 1: So you're tipping away out a psyche. And I guess

1788
01:37:52,760 --> 01:37:56,960
Speaker 1: that's my question, could could is where do you expect

1789
01:37:57,200 --> 01:38:00,679
Speaker 1: the abortion rights activist community to go to be going

1790
01:38:01,080 --> 01:38:03,479
Speaker 1: immediately to try to get a congressional answer here or

1791
01:38:03,880 --> 01:38:10,040
Speaker 1: this long sort of basically mirror image campaign brick by brick, right.

1792
01:38:10,560 --> 01:38:13,439
Speaker 3: I mean, I think the predominant place where the abortion

1793
01:38:13,840 --> 01:38:16,320
Speaker 3: rights movement, at least the sort of ground troops within

1794
01:38:16,360 --> 01:38:19,160
Speaker 3: the abortion rights movement have gone at this point is

1795
01:38:19,200 --> 01:38:22,519
Speaker 3: they're just providing abortions regardless of what the laws in

1796
01:38:22,560 --> 01:38:23,560
Speaker 3: these states.

1797
01:38:23,200 --> 01:38:28,000
Speaker 1: Say, right to sue daring, you know, yeah, and.

1798
01:38:27,920 --> 01:38:30,320
Speaker 3: They have sued and so far, you know, this is

1799
01:38:30,320 --> 01:38:32,120
Speaker 3: all going to end up before the Supreme Court. But

1800
01:38:32,200 --> 01:38:34,519
Speaker 3: you have eight states that have passed shield laws that

1801
01:38:34,640 --> 01:38:38,439
Speaker 3: say a doctor in New York or Massachusetts can ship

1802
01:38:38,520 --> 01:38:41,680
Speaker 3: medication abortion to Texas or Alabama, and they're doing this

1803
01:38:41,840 --> 01:38:46,479
Speaker 3: for free or for very cheap and will protect them. Right,

1804
01:38:46,560 --> 01:38:50,440
Speaker 3: States like my state of Massachusetts are protecting those clinicians.

1805
01:38:50,439 --> 01:38:52,720
Speaker 3: So far, this is held up, and so what that

1806
01:38:52,800 --> 01:38:54,800
Speaker 3: means is that the number of abortions has gone up

1807
01:38:55,360 --> 01:38:59,719
Speaker 3: since the Dobs decision, and so I think it remains

1808
01:38:59,720 --> 01:39:01,760
Speaker 3: to be I mean, finally, we're seeing the kind of

1809
01:39:01,840 --> 01:39:05,720
Speaker 3: like legal experimentation that the anti abortion movement was so

1810
01:39:05,800 --> 01:39:08,080
Speaker 3: good at happening on the abortion right side. I think

1811
01:39:08,120 --> 01:39:10,719
Speaker 3: that's what these shield laws are. I think it remains

1812
01:39:10,760 --> 01:39:13,400
Speaker 3: to be seen if the Supreme Court's gonna let it hold.

1813
01:39:13,439 --> 01:39:15,160
Speaker 3: I think it remains to be seen if after the

1814
01:39:15,200 --> 01:39:18,479
Speaker 3: midterms are done, the Trump administration comes in with some

1815
01:39:18,520 --> 01:39:21,760
Speaker 3: sort of restriction on abortion pills by mail. I mean,

1816
01:39:21,760 --> 01:39:24,200
Speaker 3: it tells you everything that they seem to have decided

1817
01:39:24,240 --> 01:39:25,960
Speaker 3: not to do so before the midterms.

1818
01:39:27,320 --> 01:39:29,360
Speaker 1: But I think there are seems to be some You

1819
01:39:29,400 --> 01:39:32,320
Speaker 1: talk to some of my folks I've talked on the right,

1820
01:39:32,400 --> 01:39:35,400
Speaker 1: and they're really bitter that RFK Junior is sitting at

1821
01:39:35,640 --> 01:39:38,160
Speaker 1: HHS because of this very issue.

1822
01:39:38,479 --> 01:39:41,759
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, you know, and you know, the FDA

1823
01:39:42,800 --> 01:39:45,840
Speaker 3: could crack down on, you know, abortion pills by mail.

1824
01:39:46,240 --> 01:39:46,400
Speaker 2: You know.

1825
01:39:46,439 --> 01:39:48,800
Speaker 3: Project twenty twenty five line lays out a way that

1826
01:39:48,840 --> 01:39:52,080
Speaker 3: the Justice Department could invoke the eighteen seventy three Comstock Act,

1827
01:39:52,120 --> 01:39:55,519
Speaker 3: this Victorian era anti vice law, to stop the mailing

1828
01:39:55,560 --> 01:39:58,439
Speaker 3: of abortion pills. And so far, you know, Trump hasn't

1829
01:39:58,479 --> 01:40:02,040
Speaker 3: seemed interested in doing I mean, he's busy waging war

1830
01:40:02,080 --> 01:40:04,559
Speaker 3: in Iran, I guess, but also I think that you know,

1831
01:40:05,160 --> 01:40:10,600
Speaker 3: his strategists understand that this is a deep liability for Republicans,

1832
01:40:10,920 --> 01:40:13,200
Speaker 3: and so I think what you're seeing is that people

1833
01:40:13,240 --> 01:40:15,120
Speaker 3: are sort of rising up to the challenge of this

1834
01:40:15,240 --> 01:40:20,320
Speaker 3: public health emergency and providing abortions wherever they can. There's

1835
01:40:20,360 --> 01:40:23,920
Speaker 3: another slower process that's going to have to happen with

1836
01:40:23,960 --> 01:40:26,439
Speaker 3: restoring the legal rights so that the experience for people

1837
01:40:26,479 --> 01:40:29,479
Speaker 3: seeking these abortions isn't fraught with fear and risk as

1838
01:40:29,479 --> 01:40:31,519
Speaker 3: it is today in states where abortion is banned.

1839
01:40:32,960 --> 01:40:38,320
Speaker 1: So do you want to reveal your suspects? I mean,

1840
01:40:38,320 --> 01:40:39,960
Speaker 1: in some ways we've been talking about it, all of them,

1841
01:40:40,000 --> 01:40:41,840
Speaker 1: but we're coming to an end here. Or do we

1842
01:40:41,840 --> 01:40:43,160
Speaker 1: want to make people read it all the way to

1843
01:40:43,200 --> 01:40:43,479
Speaker 1: the end?

1844
01:40:43,720 --> 01:40:44,040
Speaker 2: Okay?

1845
01:40:44,240 --> 01:40:48,320
Speaker 3: I give a Christy spoiler alert, Chuck and she's dead. Okay,

1846
01:40:48,360 --> 01:40:50,439
Speaker 3: thank goodness, she's not here because she hated it when

1847
01:40:50,479 --> 01:40:51,960
Speaker 3: people spoiled her endings.

1848
01:40:52,560 --> 01:40:55,920
Speaker 2: Murder on the Orange Express spoiler alert. Okay, you get to.

1849
01:40:55,880 --> 01:40:58,080
Speaker 3: The end of that book or that movie, if you

1850
01:40:58,120 --> 01:41:00,200
Speaker 3: watched it and what happens, you learned that they are

1851
01:41:00,200 --> 01:41:03,400
Speaker 3: all guilty, they all did it, And that was my

1852
01:41:03,479 --> 01:41:05,679
Speaker 3: experience with you know, the death of Roe was death

1853
01:41:05,800 --> 01:41:09,720
Speaker 3: by a thousand stab wounds. It was death incrementally over decades.

1854
01:41:09,760 --> 01:41:13,559
Speaker 3: It involved people on the Democratic and the Republican side.

1855
01:41:13,680 --> 01:41:16,799
Speaker 3: It involved grassroots activists you've never heard of. It involved

1856
01:41:16,800 --> 01:41:19,200
Speaker 3: people who didn't care about abortion but saw a political

1857
01:41:19,200 --> 01:41:22,360
Speaker 3: opportunity for themselves. And it involved diehards who thought they

1858
01:41:22,360 --> 01:41:24,680
Speaker 3: were the great civil rights heroes of their time and

1859
01:41:24,720 --> 01:41:27,720
Speaker 3: who believed they were earning a ticket to heaven by

1860
01:41:27,840 --> 01:41:32,240
Speaker 3: restricting abortion and you know, putting women through hell. And

1861
01:41:32,520 --> 01:41:36,200
Speaker 3: some of those suspects are pretty colorful characters, and I

1862
01:41:36,240 --> 01:41:37,559
Speaker 3: talk about them all in my book.

1863
01:41:37,920 --> 01:41:40,040
Speaker 1: No, it's an important look. It's a bit of a

1864
01:41:40,160 --> 01:41:44,080
Speaker 1: history book, but it's one of these. But it's also

1865
01:41:44,479 --> 01:41:48,280
Speaker 1: obviously it's still a relevant I mean, you you cannot

1866
01:41:48,520 --> 01:41:52,920
Speaker 1: deal with today's politics without understanding and in many ways,

1867
01:41:52,960 --> 01:41:56,920
Speaker 1: I I don't know this shit. In fifty years from now,

1868
01:41:57,200 --> 01:42:00,680
Speaker 1: maybe you'll be around to see this out. I will be,

1869
01:42:00,800 --> 01:42:04,360
Speaker 1: But you know, I think we are at the end

1870
01:42:04,439 --> 01:42:07,080
Speaker 1: of this movement somehow, some way. That Trump is sort

1871
01:42:07,080 --> 01:42:11,320
Speaker 1: of the the dead cat bounce and and and we're

1872
01:42:11,360 --> 01:42:14,280
Speaker 1: going to see an entirely different conservative movement in this

1873
01:42:14,360 --> 01:42:18,880
Speaker 1: country grow after he leaves the stage. But that may

1874
01:42:18,880 --> 01:42:20,640
Speaker 1: be on my own version of TDS. So what do

1875
01:42:20,680 --> 01:42:24,160
Speaker 1: I know? But and I think that's the that's the mystery,

1876
01:42:24,240 --> 01:42:26,559
Speaker 1: right are we Are we at the beginning of something

1877
01:42:26,640 --> 01:42:27,400
Speaker 1: or at the end of something?

1878
01:42:27,960 --> 01:42:36,080
Speaker 3: Mhmm, Yeah. I'm a total hope practitioner. I read a

1879
01:42:36,120 --> 01:42:38,519
Speaker 3: lot of Rebecca Soulnett. I believe in hope, So I'm

1880
01:42:38,520 --> 01:42:40,639
Speaker 3: gonna I'm going to choose to believe you there, although

1881
01:42:40,680 --> 01:42:43,720
Speaker 3: I have to say, you know, some of what is

1882
01:42:43,760 --> 01:42:47,040
Speaker 3: coming out of the extreme right fringe it's not even

1883
01:42:47,040 --> 01:42:48,879
Speaker 3: extreme fringe anymore.

1884
01:42:48,960 --> 01:42:52,240
Speaker 1: In the I don't know what to call fringe right exactly.

1885
01:42:52,920 --> 01:42:55,719
Speaker 1: Fringe it's in the center camera some days.

1886
01:42:56,120 --> 01:42:56,920
Speaker 2: What do you call it?

1887
01:42:56,960 --> 01:43:01,080
Speaker 3: You know? I I think there there's folks now who

1888
01:43:01,280 --> 01:43:04,400
Speaker 3: are gaining way more attraction in the anti abortion movement

1889
01:43:04,760 --> 01:43:08,280
Speaker 3: who think that women should get the death penalty for abortions.

1890
01:43:08,360 --> 01:43:11,280
Speaker 3: There's a legislation being introduced. You know, this is gaining

1891
01:43:11,280 --> 01:43:13,760
Speaker 3: more traction than it did before. There are people who

1892
01:43:13,760 --> 01:43:16,200
Speaker 3: think women should not have the right to vote. You know,

1893
01:43:16,280 --> 01:43:19,439
Speaker 3: I'm profiling some of the women leaders of anti abortion

1894
01:43:19,640 --> 01:43:23,799
Speaker 3: organizations who have men constantly harassing them, saying you shouldn't

1895
01:43:23,800 --> 01:43:25,880
Speaker 3: have a job, you should be at home. You know,

1896
01:43:26,040 --> 01:43:30,720
Speaker 3: this is coming out of the right wing part of this,

1897
01:43:30,880 --> 01:43:31,880
Speaker 3: of the anti abortion movement.

1898
01:43:31,960 --> 01:43:34,000
Speaker 1: So well, it's been interesting to see like a Marjorie

1899
01:43:34,000 --> 01:43:38,280
Speaker 1: Taylor Green, who you knows, I don't think it's coming

1900
01:43:38,280 --> 01:43:41,080
Speaker 1: out and saying, hey, this mega movement's a very pro woman.

1901
01:43:42,880 --> 01:43:46,080
Speaker 3: It's interesting, right, It is interesting to see what choices

1902
01:43:46,160 --> 01:43:49,720
Speaker 3: women make when they look around and discover just how misogynists,

1903
01:43:50,040 --> 01:43:52,160
Speaker 3: you know, their peers are in.

1904
01:43:52,080 --> 01:43:54,760
Speaker 2: This coalition, and some of them are staying and some

1905
01:43:54,800 --> 01:43:55,519
Speaker 2: of them are leaving.

1906
01:43:57,000 --> 01:44:00,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if if there isn't a senator named

1907
01:44:00,080 --> 01:44:04,559
Speaker 1: Katie Britt that IVF is protected. Yeah, yeah, I mean

1908
01:44:05,640 --> 01:44:08,599
Speaker 1: it is interesting. The women in this in the Republican Party,

1909
01:44:08,600 --> 01:44:15,599
Speaker 1: who you can tell are very are very They're not

1910
01:44:15,640 --> 01:44:18,840
Speaker 1: comfortable with the position they've been put in. Look, they

1911
01:44:18,840 --> 01:44:20,200
Speaker 1: made the choice, so I'm not going to say, but

1912
01:44:20,600 --> 01:44:22,080
Speaker 1: you can feel that discomfort.

1913
01:44:22,760 --> 01:44:26,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean it's interesting. You mentioned Kansas.

1914
01:44:26,200 --> 01:44:28,400
Speaker 3: You know, this was the first state to vote directly

1915
01:44:28,520 --> 01:44:31,240
Speaker 3: on abortion after the Dobs decision in twenty twenty two,

1916
01:44:31,280 --> 01:44:33,040
Speaker 3: and I was on the ground there going door to

1917
01:44:33,120 --> 01:44:35,920
Speaker 3: door with some of the doorknockers, and there were people

1918
01:44:35,920 --> 01:44:38,599
Speaker 3: who came to the door who were women who are

1919
01:44:38,640 --> 01:44:43,000
Speaker 3: registered Republicans who are like, yeah, I'm really worried about

1920
01:44:43,000 --> 01:44:46,519
Speaker 3: this because my IVF. And I told my mom, you

1921
01:44:46,520 --> 01:44:49,000
Speaker 3: know you better, you know you better vote the right

1922
01:44:49,040 --> 01:44:51,760
Speaker 3: way on this because my IVF. You know again, this

1923
01:44:51,840 --> 01:44:53,639
Speaker 3: is what happens when you come for an issue that's

1924
01:44:53,640 --> 01:44:58,880
Speaker 3: central to people's decision making and autonomy, Well, create coalitions.

1925
01:44:59,160 --> 01:45:03,840
Speaker 1: You know. Technology. I always thought technology helped the anti

1926
01:45:03,880 --> 01:45:08,000
Speaker 1: abortion rights community when you could see that heartbeat, so

1927
01:45:08,080 --> 01:45:10,599
Speaker 1: we're like right, and that allowed them to make the

1928
01:45:10,600 --> 01:45:13,880
Speaker 1: weak designation and keep moving it up, moving it up.

1929
01:45:15,400 --> 01:45:18,800
Speaker 1: Is there technology that benefits the rights side of this?

1930
01:45:18,880 --> 01:45:19,879
Speaker 1: As we keep going.

1931
01:45:19,680 --> 01:45:25,639
Speaker 3: Forward, social media seems to be helping the abortion rights

1932
01:45:25,680 --> 01:45:27,679
Speaker 3: move and get their word out. I mean a lot

1933
01:45:27,680 --> 01:45:30,800
Speaker 3: of young people are out there, you know, sharing their

1934
01:45:30,840 --> 01:45:34,920
Speaker 3: abortion stories. I mean, you know, people sharing their personal experiences,

1935
01:45:34,960 --> 01:45:38,400
Speaker 3: whether it's on TikTok or Instagram or you know, breaking

1936
01:45:38,400 --> 01:45:41,680
Speaker 3: this down saying like hey, you know, I think a

1937
01:45:41,800 --> 01:45:44,200
Speaker 3: huge part of the way the anti abortion movement one

1938
01:45:44,920 --> 01:45:49,240
Speaker 3: is through creating this impression that abortion is this deeply

1939
01:45:49,320 --> 01:45:51,960
Speaker 3: divisive deeply shameful, deeply stigmatized.

1940
01:45:52,840 --> 01:45:54,520
Speaker 1: They stigmatized it, yes.

1941
01:45:54,640 --> 01:45:57,080
Speaker 3: Exactly, and that was one of the main triumphs of

1942
01:45:57,080 --> 01:45:59,640
Speaker 3: Operation Rescue. I think if you're blockading clinics, if you

1943
01:45:59,640 --> 01:46:01,720
Speaker 3: have one of people getting arrested in the parking lot,

1944
01:46:01,760 --> 01:46:04,960
Speaker 3: it sends this impression that this is a battleground, even

1945
01:46:05,000 --> 01:46:07,120
Speaker 3: though when you look at the polls, it's like, oh,

1946
01:46:07,320 --> 01:46:09,920
Speaker 3: most people seem to actually support this issue and think

1947
01:46:09,920 --> 01:46:14,479
Speaker 3: that the status quo is probably fine, you know. And

1948
01:46:15,040 --> 01:46:18,400
Speaker 3: so you know, I think people sharing their stories, people

1949
01:46:18,520 --> 01:46:21,559
Speaker 3: talking about this issue in a way that you know,

1950
01:46:22,600 --> 01:46:25,040
Speaker 3: I have an event coming up with Beckeraya Tucker, the

1951
01:46:25,040 --> 01:46:27,639
Speaker 3: Sweet Feminists, and her thing is like she's on social

1952
01:46:27,720 --> 01:46:31,439
Speaker 3: media and she makes these cakes and then she writes

1953
01:46:31,520 --> 01:46:34,400
Speaker 3: like throw abortion rights slogans on the cakes, you know,

1954
01:46:34,479 --> 01:46:36,519
Speaker 3: and shares them on social media. I mean, hey, that's

1955
01:46:36,520 --> 01:46:40,480
Speaker 3: the use of technology to spread a pro abortion rights message.

1956
01:46:40,960 --> 01:46:44,400
Speaker 1: Well, it's like I said, your book is well timed,

1957
01:46:44,439 --> 01:46:47,160
Speaker 1: just simply by the number of questions I've been getting

1958
01:46:47,200 --> 01:46:49,559
Speaker 1: about the campaign trail and where is this issue and

1959
01:46:49,880 --> 01:46:52,840
Speaker 1: where should it be? And we know Democrats are wringing

1960
01:46:52,880 --> 01:46:55,960
Speaker 1: their hands about culture issues and all sorts of things.

1961
01:46:56,000 --> 01:46:58,600
Speaker 1: Oh they're losing the manisphere, should they? You know, not

1962
01:46:58,720 --> 01:47:02,280
Speaker 1: this or that. But I have a feeling this Your

1963
01:47:02,320 --> 01:47:04,759
Speaker 1: book's going to get more traction and people are gonna say, oh,

1964
01:47:04,880 --> 01:47:06,799
Speaker 1: that's right. People care about this issue.

1965
01:47:07,280 --> 01:47:09,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, people care about this issue because it affects

1966
01:47:09,960 --> 01:47:13,599
Speaker 3: the shape of their lives, men and women, and because

1967
01:47:13,680 --> 01:47:16,000
Speaker 3: lives are at stake, because women's lives are at stake.

1968
01:47:16,200 --> 01:47:19,320
Speaker 3: And I hope that we remember those stories. I know

1969
01:47:19,360 --> 01:47:21,559
Speaker 3: that people do, and I know that, you know, true

1970
01:47:21,600 --> 01:47:23,680
Speaker 3: believers on the right side of history are keeping those

1971
01:47:23,720 --> 01:47:26,519
Speaker 3: stories alive and keeping them in front of mind, even

1972
01:47:26,520 --> 01:47:28,400
Speaker 3: if people seem to think voters have forgotten.

1973
01:47:29,560 --> 01:47:32,560
Speaker 1: Well, Amy, pack up a bunch of bag if that

1974
01:47:32,640 --> 01:47:34,840
Speaker 1: Christine novels for your book, doer right, so you can,

1975
01:47:35,240 --> 01:47:37,559
Speaker 1: you know, have some you know, have some reading to

1976
01:47:37,600 --> 01:47:37,880
Speaker 1: do in.

1977
01:47:37,800 --> 01:47:40,479
Speaker 2: Your downtown you know, I will. I think I'll go

1978
01:47:40,520 --> 01:47:41,320
Speaker 2: read one right now.

1979
01:47:42,600 --> 01:47:45,439
Speaker 1: Congrats of the book. It's like I said, you took

1980
01:47:45,439 --> 01:47:48,240
Speaker 1: a topic that I'm not gonna lie to you. I

1981
01:47:48,240 --> 01:47:51,920
Speaker 1: know it well. I've you know, if you cover American

1982
01:47:51,920 --> 01:47:54,799
Speaker 1: politics over the last thirty years and you aren't familiar,

1983
01:47:55,160 --> 01:47:59,479
Speaker 1: you're doing yourself a disservice. It's so woven in to

1984
01:48:00,080 --> 01:48:03,760
Speaker 1: campaign tactics and why messaging sounds what it does, and

1985
01:48:03,840 --> 01:48:06,400
Speaker 1: all of these things and so many interest groups that

1986
01:48:06,439 --> 01:48:10,920
Speaker 1: literally exist solely because of this issue. And so if

1987
01:48:10,960 --> 01:48:13,559
Speaker 1: you're not as well versed in this, I highly recommend

1988
01:48:13,560 --> 01:48:16,160
Speaker 1: this book because you do a terrific job of making

1989
01:48:16,880 --> 01:48:20,120
Speaker 1: the history also digestible. As we all know, we have

1990
01:48:20,280 --> 01:48:23,680
Speaker 1: the attention economy coming for us all the time, you know,

1991
01:48:23,880 --> 01:48:25,680
Speaker 1: And I'm sure you'll have a TikTok version of your

1992
01:48:25,680 --> 01:48:29,320
Speaker 1: books soon, but in the meantime, good old fashioned reading,

1993
01:48:29,360 --> 01:48:30,320
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with it.

1994
01:48:31,600 --> 01:48:34,320
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for saying that you got it.

1995
01:48:43,680 --> 01:48:46,080
Speaker 1: Well. Many of you had actually asked been asking me

1996
01:48:46,200 --> 01:48:50,519
Speaker 1: questions about abortion and the midterms, and so guess what

1997
01:48:50,920 --> 01:48:54,600
Speaker 1: it turned out I think to be a good conversation

1998
01:48:54,760 --> 01:48:59,599
Speaker 1: to have on this issue. And you know, as I

1999
01:48:59,640 --> 01:49:03,719
Speaker 1: think I said during the interview itself, I'm a believer

2000
01:49:03,880 --> 01:49:06,519
Speaker 1: that you know, these issues, you know, they may ebb

2001
01:49:06,560 --> 01:49:09,160
Speaker 1: and flow in significance to the voter in a given

2002
01:49:09,160 --> 01:49:13,360
Speaker 1: election cycle, but issues like abortion rise back up when

2003
01:49:13,400 --> 01:49:16,840
Speaker 1: people are particularly when people feel a bit more satisfied

2004
01:49:16,880 --> 01:49:20,439
Speaker 1: about their economic situation. And right now, that may explain

2005
01:49:20,520 --> 01:49:23,640
Speaker 1: why we are seeing less about reproductive rights and a

2006
01:49:23,640 --> 01:49:28,040
Speaker 1: lot more about the economy. All right, well, it is

2007
01:49:28,080 --> 01:49:30,840
Speaker 1: that time. It is our Wednesday podcast, and we just

2008
01:49:31,320 --> 01:49:33,880
Speaker 1: you know, I know you guys, some of you enjoyed

2009
01:49:33,880 --> 01:49:38,200
Speaker 1: our livestream coverage of the Illinois primary night. Well, in

2010
01:49:38,240 --> 01:49:40,920
Speaker 1: the spirit of Illinois, that's what my top five list

2011
01:49:41,000 --> 01:49:46,720
Speaker 1: I'm as you know. I've been excitedly, frankly, using some

2012
01:49:46,800 --> 01:49:52,040
Speaker 1: old research that I've been doing, frankly for decades about

2013
01:49:52,040 --> 01:49:55,360
Speaker 1: the all time great campaigns, not necessarily presidential campaigns, but

2014
01:49:55,400 --> 01:49:58,920
Speaker 1: statewide campaigns of all time. And so I thought this year,

2015
01:49:59,280 --> 01:50:01,920
Speaker 1: you know, instead of letting that continue to gather dust

2016
01:50:02,080 --> 01:50:04,800
Speaker 1: in this unwritten book that at some point I'm going

2017
01:50:04,880 --> 01:50:10,160
Speaker 1: to write that, instead I share this fine research with you,

2018
01:50:10,800 --> 01:50:15,519
Speaker 1: my fellow political junkies. And you know what, I think.

2019
01:50:16,560 --> 01:50:20,320
Speaker 1: I enjoyed doing this, and this is sort of what

2020
01:50:20,479 --> 01:50:25,040
Speaker 1: originally got me into politics. I enjoyed a good campaign, yarn.

2021
01:50:25,200 --> 01:50:28,280
Speaker 1: So in the spirit of that, my top five, my

2022
01:50:28,479 --> 01:50:43,280
Speaker 1: top five all time Illinois races in history, top top consequential,

2023
01:50:43,479 --> 01:50:47,480
Speaker 1: ones that had huge impact, ones that were just fascinating,

2024
01:50:48,000 --> 01:50:51,040
Speaker 1: all sorts of things. And I'll tell Illinois, let's just

2025
01:50:51,080 --> 01:50:53,679
Speaker 1: say it was really hard to narrow things down to five.

2026
01:50:54,840 --> 01:50:58,400
Speaker 1: I could have included a mayor's race or two in

2027
01:50:58,479 --> 01:51:00,599
Speaker 1: Chicago that I think would have been worthy of an

2028
01:51:00,600 --> 01:51:04,719
Speaker 1: all time top five. I didn't, but Harold Washington certainly

2029
01:51:04,720 --> 01:51:09,000
Speaker 1: deserves honorable mention the eighty three Chicago mayor's race there,

2030
01:51:10,600 --> 01:51:13,639
Speaker 1: but I didn't do that. This is a tough one. Hey,

2031
01:51:13,680 --> 01:51:16,559
Speaker 1: when you're the state of Illinois, right, Illinois might be

2032
01:51:16,600 --> 01:51:20,759
Speaker 1: the only state where reformers, future presidents, and convicted governors

2033
01:51:21,160 --> 01:51:24,320
Speaker 1: have all come out of the same political ecosystem. So

2034
01:51:24,400 --> 01:51:26,639
Speaker 1: it makes Illinois so rich. Now, look, I'm not gonna

2035
01:51:26,880 --> 01:51:28,479
Speaker 1: I gotta lie to you. I don't expect any of

2036
01:51:28,479 --> 01:51:33,559
Speaker 1: the Illinois races this cycle to crack our top five

2037
01:51:34,840 --> 01:51:36,559
Speaker 1: in all time, but hey, it's a state that has

2038
01:51:36,560 --> 01:51:39,559
Speaker 1: produced to presidents Abraham Lincoln and Barack Obama and has

2039
01:51:39,600 --> 01:51:43,880
Speaker 1: sent four governors to federal president. Every single campaign has

2040
01:51:43,880 --> 01:51:46,919
Speaker 1: a shadow on it in this state. So if Texas

2041
01:51:47,000 --> 01:51:49,760
Speaker 1: is the home of some high stake soap operas over

2042
01:51:49,800 --> 01:51:54,679
Speaker 1: the years, from Manpa the Monpa governors, if you will,

2043
01:51:54,760 --> 01:51:58,640
Speaker 1: to LBJ to what could be an all timer this

2044
01:51:58,720 --> 01:52:03,040
Speaker 1: year with that Senate rate, Illinois is a home to

2045
01:52:03,080 --> 01:52:07,639
Speaker 1: the gritty political thriller, and it's got quite a few

2046
01:52:07,880 --> 01:52:11,599
Speaker 1: all time races to it. Today we're looking my five

2047
01:52:11,640 --> 01:52:15,720
Speaker 1: most consequential statewide campaigns in Illinois history. So look, I

2048
01:52:15,760 --> 01:52:19,960
Speaker 1: want to make because the corruptive, the corrupt governors are

2049
01:52:20,000 --> 01:52:22,080
Speaker 1: not really going to be a feature of the old

2050
01:52:22,120 --> 01:52:25,200
Speaker 1: time top five campaigns because in many cases we didn't

2051
01:52:25,200 --> 01:52:27,479
Speaker 1: know they were corrupt during the campaign itself. He found

2052
01:52:27,479 --> 01:52:32,559
Speaker 1: out later, but you know, we should note four governors

2053
01:52:32,560 --> 01:52:34,920
Speaker 1: have gone to prison. Otto Kerner was a bribery scandal

2054
01:52:34,920 --> 01:52:37,720
Speaker 1: tied to a racetrack stock deal. Dan Walker was a

2055
01:52:37,760 --> 01:52:41,240
Speaker 1: reformer who turned felon after leaving office. George Ryan was

2056
01:52:41,280 --> 01:52:45,519
Speaker 1: the guy who essentially sold state licenses in exchange for bribes.

2057
01:52:45,800 --> 01:52:48,439
Speaker 1: And then, of course Rob Logoyevitch, who famously tried to

2058
01:52:48,439 --> 01:52:52,120
Speaker 1: sell Barack Obama Senate seat. And it's Lagoyevitch that gave

2059
01:52:52,200 --> 01:52:55,120
Speaker 1: us one of those all time great lines that get

2060
01:52:55,200 --> 01:52:59,519
Speaker 1: used today. I've got this thing and it is efing golden,

2061
01:53:00,080 --> 01:53:03,840
Speaker 1: except he didn't say fing. That thing, of course, was

2062
01:53:03,880 --> 01:53:06,920
Speaker 1: the Obama Senate seat, since he controlled the appointment process.

2063
01:53:07,280 --> 01:53:09,519
Speaker 1: So do keep in mind as we go through my

2064
01:53:09,600 --> 01:53:13,439
Speaker 1: top five races here that Illinois ambition and scandal. Let's

2065
01:53:13,479 --> 01:53:18,160
Speaker 1: just say they tend to travel together. Look, number one

2066
01:53:18,200 --> 01:53:25,240
Speaker 1: on the list is pretty easy. And to me, it's

2067
01:53:25,280 --> 01:53:28,960
Speaker 1: not even a close call. It's Barack Obama's two thousand

2068
01:53:28,960 --> 01:53:33,479
Speaker 1: and four Senate campaign, a campaign that may never maybe

2069
01:53:33,520 --> 01:53:36,360
Speaker 1: never should have happened or never should have been successful,

2070
01:53:37,120 --> 01:53:41,880
Speaker 1: but he benefited from not one but two candidate collapses

2071
01:53:42,200 --> 01:53:45,479
Speaker 1: in order to secure a victory for the United States

2072
01:53:45,520 --> 01:53:48,920
Speaker 1: Senate that would ultimately lead him to the presidency. This

2073
01:53:49,320 --> 01:53:53,840
Speaker 1: might be when I ultimately will put together my five

2074
01:53:54,720 --> 01:53:58,720
Speaker 1: all time US Senate races, and I will say this

2075
01:53:58,760 --> 01:54:01,640
Speaker 1: one is going to be I don't want to say

2076
01:54:01,680 --> 01:54:05,280
Speaker 1: it's guaranteed, but LBJ and this one right when you

2077
01:54:05,400 --> 01:54:09,800
Speaker 1: involve a future president in your Senate campaign, is this

2078
01:54:10,360 --> 01:54:14,400
Speaker 1: controversial or unique? It may qualify for an all time

2079
01:54:14,439 --> 01:54:19,559
Speaker 1: top five in the nation's history. So but let me

2080
01:54:19,560 --> 01:54:21,280
Speaker 1: tell you the story a little bit. And look, I'm

2081
01:54:21,280 --> 01:54:23,760
Speaker 1: not going to give you all the details that I'll

2082
01:54:23,800 --> 01:54:26,400
Speaker 1: say for the much longer version of this story, but

2083
01:54:26,520 --> 01:54:28,960
Speaker 1: it starts with the primary that most people forget, the

2084
01:54:29,000 --> 01:54:32,440
Speaker 1: Democratic primary. The early front runner wasn't Barack Obama was

2085
01:54:32,440 --> 01:54:36,400
Speaker 1: a well funded stock trader and guy who helped gain

2086
01:54:36,520 --> 01:54:41,080
Speaker 1: the system on blackjack, sort of basically an old card

2087
01:54:41,120 --> 01:54:43,960
Speaker 1: counter named Blair Hall. And at the time you spend

2088
01:54:44,080 --> 01:54:46,000
Speaker 1: twenty five million dollars of his own money. In two

2089
01:54:46,000 --> 01:54:47,960
Speaker 1: thousand and four, back when twenty five million dollars with

2090
01:54:47,960 --> 01:54:51,400
Speaker 1: a lot of money, Hall was leading until his divorce

2091
01:54:51,480 --> 01:54:57,959
Speaker 1: records were unsealed, revealing allegations of domestic abuse. His campaign

2092
01:54:58,040 --> 01:55:02,120
Speaker 1: collapsed almost immediately. It cleared the lane for Barack Obama.

2093
01:55:03,200 --> 01:55:07,160
Speaker 1: At the time still a fairly wasn't that well known

2094
01:55:07,600 --> 01:55:10,320
Speaker 1: of an Illinois state senator, was not getting huge donations,

2095
01:55:10,440 --> 01:55:13,720
Speaker 1: was doing well at these campaign forums next to Blair Hall.

2096
01:55:13,720 --> 01:55:16,240
Speaker 1: But Blair Hall had all the money and Illinois's an

2097
01:55:16,280 --> 01:55:21,280
Speaker 1: extraordinarily expensive state to campaign. But that had collapses. Obama

2098
01:55:21,320 --> 01:55:24,360
Speaker 1: wins the Democratic primary with just over fifty percent of

2099
01:55:24,360 --> 01:55:28,160
Speaker 1: the vote, and it appeared to set up what was

2100
01:55:28,200 --> 01:55:29,640
Speaker 1: going to be an all time center race. We were

2101
01:55:29,640 --> 01:55:32,000
Speaker 1: going to have a couple of them that year. Dashelthuone

2102
01:55:32,520 --> 01:55:35,600
Speaker 1: was happening in South Dakota and we were gonna have Obama.

2103
01:55:35,880 --> 01:55:40,360
Speaker 1: Jack Ryan. No, not Jack Ryan from the Tom Clancy novels,

2104
01:55:42,160 --> 01:55:45,800
Speaker 1: but this Jack Ryan had sort of the Hollywood good

2105
01:55:45,800 --> 01:55:49,160
Speaker 1: looks if you will, and he was himself a former

2106
01:55:49,400 --> 01:55:53,400
Speaker 1: investment banker. His then former wife was a fairly well

2107
01:55:53,440 --> 01:55:55,800
Speaker 1: known actress at the time named Jerry Ryan. She was

2108
01:55:55,840 --> 01:55:58,280
Speaker 1: known for a character she played on one of the

2109
01:55:58,320 --> 01:56:03,880
Speaker 1: Star Trek spinoffs called Voyager. Well, their divorce records were unsealed,

2110
01:56:04,640 --> 01:56:07,200
Speaker 1: and they included allegations that Ryan had pressured her to

2111
01:56:07,240 --> 01:56:11,240
Speaker 1: go to sex clubs in two thousand and four. Obviously,

2112
01:56:11,320 --> 01:56:13,880
Speaker 1: today's politics, this might have actually helped him in a

2113
01:56:13,920 --> 01:56:18,080
Speaker 1: primary these days, but it did not help him at

2114
01:56:18,120 --> 01:56:19,680
Speaker 1: the time. It was one of the more I remember

2115
01:56:19,800 --> 01:56:22,080
Speaker 1: one of the punchlines I used to use in public

2116
01:56:22,080 --> 01:56:25,320
Speaker 1: speaking gigs, I said, Jack Ryan was the first Republican

2117
01:56:26,040 --> 01:56:29,280
Speaker 1: first candidate for office whose political career came to an

2118
01:56:29,400 --> 01:56:31,960
Speaker 1: end because he wanted to have sex with his wife.

2119
01:56:32,400 --> 01:56:34,280
Speaker 1: Now he wanted to have sex with his wife in

2120
01:56:34,320 --> 01:56:36,640
Speaker 1: a public place, at a sex club. But it was

2121
01:56:36,880 --> 01:56:40,080
Speaker 1: unique in that you had a guy lose his political

2122
01:56:40,120 --> 01:56:43,440
Speaker 1: career not because he wanted to have sex with somebody

2123
01:56:43,480 --> 01:56:49,400
Speaker 1: else's wife, but with his own. Still, the Republican Party

2124
01:56:49,440 --> 01:56:53,040
Speaker 1: paniced Ryan withdrew and then the Republican Party went on

2125
01:56:53,120 --> 01:56:57,760
Speaker 1: a basically their own version of American idol, Illinois idol

2126
01:56:57,840 --> 01:57:01,560
Speaker 1: desperately looking for a replacement candidate. Mike Ditka was seriously

2127
01:57:01,600 --> 01:57:03,920
Speaker 1: considering it at one point, the former Chicago Bears coach.

2128
01:57:04,200 --> 01:57:07,440
Speaker 1: He ended up saying no, and who who did in

2129
01:57:07,480 --> 01:57:13,720
Speaker 1: Illinois settle on? But Alan Keyes, a conservative commentator from Maryland,

2130
01:57:13,720 --> 01:57:15,800
Speaker 1: who of course had pretty much no ties to the

2131
01:57:15,800 --> 01:57:19,920
Speaker 1: state of Illinois, in fact, had run for I believe

2132
01:57:19,920 --> 01:57:23,080
Speaker 1: the Senate in Maryland at one time ran in Illinois.

2133
01:57:24,200 --> 01:57:26,400
Speaker 1: But they were desperate for a candidate, and in you know,

2134
01:57:26,440 --> 01:57:29,040
Speaker 1: a senate residency, rules are pretty loose and lax. It's

2135
01:57:29,040 --> 01:57:34,040
Speaker 1: not like the governor's race. So he becomes the replacement candidate.

2136
01:57:34,720 --> 01:57:38,440
Speaker 1: Obama wins, but it is worth noting that the more

2137
01:57:38,480 --> 01:57:41,400
Speaker 1: important race for Obama was the primary. Because he wins

2138
01:57:41,400 --> 01:57:47,000
Speaker 1: the primary, he becomes this sort of gee whiz winner,

2139
01:57:47,160 --> 01:57:49,040
Speaker 1: if you will, meaning everybody's like, who is this guy?

2140
01:57:49,760 --> 01:57:53,680
Speaker 1: Check out? This guy's name is Barack Hussein Obama. He

2141
01:57:53,800 --> 01:57:57,080
Speaker 1: just won a Senate primary. All of the candidates around

2142
01:57:57,120 --> 01:57:59,200
Speaker 1: him are collapsing. The guy's going to win a Senate seat,

2143
01:57:59,280 --> 01:58:02,040
Speaker 1: let's you know. And he was getting enough traction and

2144
01:58:02,120 --> 01:58:05,640
Speaker 1: interest among donors that somebody suggested to John Kerrey at

2145
01:58:05,680 --> 01:58:08,200
Speaker 1: his political at his nominating convention in Boston that he

2146
01:58:08,880 --> 01:58:11,160
Speaker 1: had a tap Barack Obama to be the keynote speaker. Well,

2147
01:58:11,760 --> 01:58:15,560
Speaker 1: probably the single most important speech that Barack Obama had

2148
01:58:15,600 --> 01:58:20,839
Speaker 1: ever given. So if he doesn't accidentally win that Democratic primary,

2149
01:58:20,880 --> 01:58:23,560
Speaker 1: he doesn't get picked to give that speech. There's not

2150
01:58:23,600 --> 01:58:25,920
Speaker 1: a red America, blue America. It's a red, white, and blue,

2151
01:58:25,920 --> 01:58:30,440
Speaker 1: et cetera. We may not have a president Barack Obama.

2152
01:58:30,760 --> 01:58:36,280
Speaker 1: This Senate race it has it all sex scandals, card counting,

2153
01:58:36,920 --> 01:58:39,880
Speaker 1: all sorts of stuff. And what was weird about it?

2154
01:58:39,880 --> 01:58:42,520
Speaker 1: It was never The campaign was never about Barack Obama.

2155
01:58:42,960 --> 01:58:46,960
Speaker 1: It was always about somebody else. Blair Hall, Jack Ryan, Allen, Keys,

2156
01:58:47,080 --> 01:58:50,440
Speaker 1: Mike Getka, it was. It was just one wild and

2157
01:58:50,480 --> 01:58:52,880
Speaker 1: weird race, and it delivered one of the most consequential

2158
01:58:52,920 --> 01:58:57,080
Speaker 1: figures in modern America. So number two on my list

2159
01:58:59,040 --> 01:59:00,960
Speaker 1: is one that was a bit historic in nature, but

2160
01:59:01,000 --> 01:59:03,520
Speaker 1: it was accidentally historic. It was the election of Karra

2161
01:59:03,600 --> 01:59:06,080
Speaker 1: Moseley Brown, the first black woman to the United States Senate,

2162
01:59:06,760 --> 01:59:09,200
Speaker 1: and the race itself is often remembered for the result

2163
01:59:09,640 --> 01:59:14,320
Speaker 1: and the historic result, but the campaign was something else entirely.

2164
01:59:14,320 --> 01:59:16,880
Speaker 1: The real fight was between the incumbent Senator Alan Dixon

2165
01:59:17,360 --> 01:59:20,839
Speaker 1: and a wealthy primary challenger, a self funder named Al Hoefel.

2166
01:59:21,440 --> 01:59:25,200
Speaker 1: Hoefeld spent millions attacking Dixon. Dixon was weakened by one

2167
01:59:25,280 --> 01:59:27,720
Speaker 1: key vote nineteen ninety two. It was triggering. This was

2168
01:59:28,120 --> 01:59:31,240
Speaker 1: and it was this early Illinois primary that triggered the

2169
01:59:31,960 --> 01:59:34,040
Speaker 1: idea that this was going to become the year of

2170
01:59:34,120 --> 01:59:37,480
Speaker 1: the woman in nineteen ninety two, at least in Senate races.

2171
01:59:37,880 --> 01:59:41,480
Speaker 1: Because Dixon had supported Clarence Thomas during the Anita Hill hearings.

2172
01:59:41,560 --> 01:59:45,280
Speaker 1: The Democratic primary turned into a bitter two way war,

2173
01:59:45,560 --> 01:59:48,760
Speaker 1: very expensive between Dixon and Hoefeld. But there was a

2174
01:59:48,800 --> 01:59:52,680
Speaker 1: third candidate in the race, a lesser known office holder

2175
01:59:52,720 --> 01:59:55,960
Speaker 1: from Cook County. The Cook County Recorder of Deeds was

2176
01:59:56,360 --> 01:59:59,320
Speaker 1: her office title at the time, woman by the name

2177
01:59:59,360 --> 02:00:02,400
Speaker 1: of Carol Moseley, and look, she was considered kind of

2178
02:00:02,440 --> 02:00:05,000
Speaker 1: an afterthought in this race because she didn't have the

2179
02:00:05,000 --> 02:00:08,720
Speaker 1: financial resources of Hoefeld or of the sitting senator. But

2180
02:00:08,800 --> 02:00:13,040
Speaker 1: as Dixon and Hoefeld tore each other apart, suddenly Braun

2181
02:00:13,120 --> 02:00:17,040
Speaker 1: benefited from sort of not being the one either slinging

2182
02:00:17,120 --> 02:00:20,200
Speaker 1: mud or being hit by the mud, and she was

2183
02:00:20,240 --> 02:00:24,080
Speaker 1: able to consolidate an interesting group, an interesting group of voters,

2184
02:00:24,280 --> 02:00:27,800
Speaker 1: Black voters, reform minded voters, and voters that were angry

2185
02:00:27,800 --> 02:00:31,800
Speaker 1: about Thomas. Sure, the ven diagrams overlapped, but it got

2186
02:00:31,840 --> 02:00:33,920
Speaker 1: her thirty eight percent of the vote, which was enough

2187
02:00:33,920 --> 02:00:36,480
Speaker 1: to win. She knocks off a sitting senator and a

2188
02:00:36,520 --> 02:00:41,600
Speaker 1: primary Alan Dixon Hoefeld loses, ends up finishing third. She

2189
02:00:41,640 --> 02:00:44,120
Speaker 1: wins the general election by a fairly comfortable margin. In

2190
02:00:44,200 --> 02:00:46,760
Speaker 1: ninety two. Illinois was still considered a swing state back then,

2191
02:00:47,120 --> 02:00:49,840
Speaker 1: but everything was moving left Bill Clinton's victory and she

2192
02:00:49,880 --> 02:00:54,400
Speaker 1: wins fifty three forty six. But for me, it was

2193
02:00:54,440 --> 02:00:57,160
Speaker 1: a reminder of the dynamics and a reminder was an

2194
02:00:57,200 --> 02:00:59,640
Speaker 1: early lesson for me because we'd get one literally a

2195
02:00:59,640 --> 02:01:02,640
Speaker 1: month later in Wisconsin, very similar situation where you had

2196
02:01:03,680 --> 02:01:06,080
Speaker 1: that Russ Feinegeld ended up win a Senate seat. He

2197
02:01:06,280 --> 02:01:09,800
Speaker 1: was the third candidate in what appeared to be a

2198
02:01:09,840 --> 02:01:14,640
Speaker 1: two way brutal primary that got so nasty voters decided

2199
02:01:14,680 --> 02:01:16,640
Speaker 1: not to support either of the top two candidates and

2200
02:01:16,680 --> 02:01:18,920
Speaker 1: supported the candidate that wasn't engaging in the mud fight,

2201
02:01:19,400 --> 02:01:21,280
Speaker 1: just like with caramel Ley Braun. So it was really

2202
02:01:21,600 --> 02:01:24,160
Speaker 1: a reminder of the dynamics of three way elections and

2203
02:01:24,440 --> 02:01:27,480
Speaker 1: they're very difficult. We're seeing We saw that again, right

2204
02:01:27,520 --> 02:01:31,200
Speaker 1: third party groups attack one candidate in a crowded primary,

2205
02:01:31,600 --> 02:01:34,120
Speaker 1: they're able to get rid of that candidate. We saw

2206
02:01:34,120 --> 02:01:36,400
Speaker 1: that in a couple house races in these Illinois primaries,

2207
02:01:36,960 --> 02:01:39,680
Speaker 1: and yet they still didn't get the candidate they wanted

2208
02:01:39,720 --> 02:01:42,600
Speaker 1: to win because the dynamic ended up benefiting, you know,

2209
02:01:42,680 --> 02:01:45,520
Speaker 1: in candidate A attacks candidate B. It was candidacy that

2210
02:01:45,600 --> 02:01:50,280
Speaker 1: benefits and that to me was what that campaign also

2211
02:01:50,680 --> 02:01:52,880
Speaker 1: taught us. My third one on this list and this

2212
02:01:52,920 --> 02:01:54,760
Speaker 1: is something I'm rarely going to do, but it's so

2213
02:01:54,880 --> 02:01:59,240
Speaker 1: impactful you have to include it, and that is the

2214
02:01:59,320 --> 02:02:04,000
Speaker 1: nineteen six the presidential campaign of Kennedy Nixon in the

2215
02:02:04,040 --> 02:02:07,720
Speaker 1: state of Illinois, because it created a myth or a

2216
02:02:07,800 --> 02:02:12,040
Speaker 1: legend that still sort of percolates in our politics today. Right,

2217
02:02:12,920 --> 02:02:15,680
Speaker 1: Kennedy won the state of Illinois by just under nine

2218
02:02:15,680 --> 02:02:20,240
Speaker 1: thousand votes, less than two tenths of one percent. And

2219
02:02:20,280 --> 02:02:24,800
Speaker 1: of course, the legendary Richard J. Daily, mayor of Chicago

2220
02:02:24,880 --> 02:02:28,000
Speaker 1: and head of the Democratic machine. He is credited with

2221
02:02:28,080 --> 02:02:31,400
Speaker 1: delivering these enormous margins in Cook County. Nixon, of course

2222
02:02:31,400 --> 02:02:34,480
Speaker 1: dominated downstate. Really that's always been the case. It's more

2223
02:02:34,480 --> 02:02:38,240
Speaker 1: conservative downstate. The further you know, you southern Illinois is

2224
02:02:38,920 --> 02:02:41,560
Speaker 1: more southern than Illinois is is one of the jokes

2225
02:02:41,560 --> 02:02:45,200
Speaker 1: you'll get. But it is in this race that the

2226
02:02:45,280 --> 02:02:49,440
Speaker 1: legend was created that in some ways still still popularizes

2227
02:02:49,600 --> 02:02:52,600
Speaker 1: right wing conspiracy theories to this day. For decades, Republicans

2228
02:02:52,600 --> 02:02:56,160
Speaker 1: have claimed that Chicago turnout was suspicious, some precincts reported

2229
02:02:56,240 --> 02:02:59,800
Speaker 1: near total voting, and that the results may have been manipulated.

2230
02:03:00,320 --> 02:03:03,560
Speaker 1: There's never been any definitive proof that fraud changed the outcome,

2231
02:03:04,120 --> 02:03:07,040
Speaker 1: but the perception mattered, and it's stuck, stuck forever. Right.

2232
02:03:07,120 --> 02:03:10,160
Speaker 1: Nixon really popularized a lot of a lot of conspiracy

2233
02:03:10,200 --> 02:03:13,480
Speaker 1: theories for the right that Donald Trump still carries out today,

2234
02:03:13,520 --> 02:03:17,440
Speaker 1: and this is one of them. Nineteen sixty helped cement

2235
02:03:17,600 --> 02:03:20,720
Speaker 1: a belief inside the Republican Party that urban political machines,

2236
02:03:20,760 --> 02:03:25,960
Speaker 1: especially in big democratic cities, could manipulate outcomes. It just

2237
02:03:26,080 --> 02:03:29,080
Speaker 1: you know, and because in many cases, because there's so

2238
02:03:29,120 --> 02:03:33,000
Speaker 1: many votes to count, they take longer to report. Right,

2239
02:03:33,240 --> 02:03:36,080
Speaker 1: our Illinois, you know, our coverage of the Illinois primaries.

2240
02:03:36,960 --> 02:03:40,240
Speaker 1: You know, we were waiting for Cook County because they

2241
02:03:40,360 --> 02:03:43,680
Speaker 1: count in one big center and so you know, Republicans think,

2242
02:03:43,720 --> 02:03:45,600
Speaker 1: oh my god, we're winning, and then Cook County comes in,

2243
02:03:45,640 --> 02:03:47,600
Speaker 1: we're losing. Well, if Cook County came in first, you

2244
02:03:47,720 --> 02:03:49,920
Speaker 1: never would be winning, you know, it just you know,

2245
02:03:50,000 --> 02:03:54,000
Speaker 1: it's the order that votes get counted is different in

2246
02:03:54,040 --> 02:03:57,720
Speaker 1: every state, but it can create the appearance of confusion

2247
02:03:57,720 --> 02:04:01,040
Speaker 1: and corruption, especially if you want a WEAPONI and exploit it.

2248
02:04:01,840 --> 02:04:06,880
Speaker 1: So that's what sort of you know, the suspicion didn't

2249
02:04:06,920 --> 02:04:09,360
Speaker 1: start in nineteen sixty, but it really gave. It became

2250
02:04:09,400 --> 02:04:12,200
Speaker 1: the modern example, and it got tied to a presidential election,

2251
02:04:12,560 --> 02:04:14,800
Speaker 1: and the belief has echoed ever since in debates over

2252
02:04:14,840 --> 02:04:19,360
Speaker 1: city vote counts, skepticism about large urban turnout, arguments about

2253
02:04:19,360 --> 02:04:22,960
Speaker 1: election integrity that continue today. But there's an important reality

2254
02:04:22,960 --> 02:04:25,560
Speaker 1: that gets lost when talking about Kennedy, Nixon and Illinois

2255
02:04:25,560 --> 02:04:30,480
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty. Let's say Nixon had won Illinois, Kennedy

2256
02:04:30,480 --> 02:04:35,120
Speaker 1: went a stone won the presidency. It wasn't the decisive state.

2257
02:04:35,960 --> 02:04:38,240
Speaker 1: Illinois was dramatic, it was close, it was controversial, but

2258
02:04:38,280 --> 02:04:41,480
Speaker 1: it was not decisive. But the mythology mattered more than

2259
02:04:41,520 --> 02:04:44,040
Speaker 1: the math. Nixon, of course, chose not to challenge the

2260
02:04:44,080 --> 02:04:46,480
Speaker 1: result because flipping Illinois wouldn't have mattered. He still would

2261
02:04:46,480 --> 02:04:51,200
Speaker 1: have lost the presidency, but it entered political folklore. This

2262
02:04:51,320 --> 02:04:55,040
Speaker 1: is the state where the machine may have helped pick

2263
02:04:55,040 --> 02:04:58,840
Speaker 1: a president, and it gave the right a grievance that

2264
02:04:58,920 --> 02:05:03,760
Speaker 1: they still mythologized today and tried to create legislation to

2265
02:05:03,840 --> 02:05:09,000
Speaker 1: deal with, even though it is simply a symptom of

2266
02:05:09,080 --> 02:05:14,520
Speaker 1: where the people live. Number four on my list is

2267
02:05:15,320 --> 02:05:19,680
Speaker 1: Paul Simon v. Charles Percy nineteen eighty four. Percy actually

2268
02:05:19,680 --> 02:05:22,360
Speaker 1: gets an honorable mention for a previous race, and I'll

2269
02:05:22,440 --> 02:05:26,880
Speaker 1: talk about it here. This one was just great political drama.

2270
02:05:27,400 --> 02:05:30,520
Speaker 1: Paul Simon was the Democrat most famous for his bow tie,

2271
02:05:30,520 --> 02:05:33,840
Speaker 1: and he was the challenger the incumbent Republican. Incumbent Charles Percy,

2272
02:05:34,560 --> 02:05:39,920
Speaker 1: was moderate, nationally respected, and arguably was beginning started to

2273
02:05:40,160 --> 02:05:43,280
Speaker 1: Percy's loss in this election was the beginning of the

2274
02:05:43,400 --> 02:05:46,320
Speaker 1: end of the moderate Republican in Illinois. There still a

2275
02:05:46,320 --> 02:05:48,520
Speaker 1: few more would get elected governor in the nineties, but

2276
02:05:48,560 --> 02:05:51,000
Speaker 1: it was when it was starting to come to an

2277
02:05:51,120 --> 02:05:55,880
Speaker 1: end because Conservatives started to get frustrated with moderate Republicans

2278
02:05:55,920 --> 02:05:59,040
Speaker 1: and this race. Paul Simon benefited the most from this,

2279
02:05:59,120 --> 02:06:02,280
Speaker 1: because you don't win a Senate race in nineteen eighty

2280
02:06:02,280 --> 02:06:05,640
Speaker 1: four against a Republican incumbent if you don't have some

2281
02:06:05,760 --> 02:06:08,560
Speaker 1: Reagan voters on your side, and Simon had Reagan voters

2282
02:06:08,600 --> 02:06:13,440
Speaker 1: on his side. Here Percy himself, a lot of people

2283
02:06:13,480 --> 02:06:15,360
Speaker 1: were shocked that he ran again in eighty four because

2284
02:06:15,360 --> 02:06:18,280
Speaker 1: he almost lost in seventy eight, and during that campaign

2285
02:06:18,360 --> 02:06:20,240
Speaker 1: he ran one of the most famous ads in political

2286
02:06:20,320 --> 02:06:25,160
Speaker 1: history because he was the first time an incumbent basically

2287
02:06:25,200 --> 02:06:29,560
Speaker 1: admitted to misdeeds. It was the I'm sorry ad, and

2288
02:06:29,640 --> 02:06:33,480
Speaker 1: it worked. The ad he's candidate to camera and in

2289
02:06:33,480 --> 02:06:35,680
Speaker 1: this case incumbent to Cameron, he said, I have made mistakes.

2290
02:06:35,680 --> 02:06:37,640
Speaker 1: I have disappointed some of you. For that, I'm sorry.

2291
02:06:38,240 --> 02:06:41,200
Speaker 1: Well it worked. He survived, but six years later the

2292
02:06:41,240 --> 02:06:45,560
Speaker 1: environment had changed completely. The fact that Percy loses in

2293
02:06:45,680 --> 02:06:48,960
Speaker 1: a Reagan landslide year, Simon gets fifty Percy forty eight.

2294
02:06:50,480 --> 02:06:53,320
Speaker 1: Simon beat him by focusing that Percy had basically gone

2295
02:06:53,400 --> 02:06:56,200
Speaker 1: Washington too distant from the voters, and he was a

2296
02:06:56,240 --> 02:07:02,280
Speaker 1: bit too much of an elitist and it worked. But

2297
02:07:02,440 --> 02:07:05,800
Speaker 1: what really helped Simon the most is that you actually

2298
02:07:05,800 --> 02:07:09,240
Speaker 1: had super conservatives, just like we had that example in

2299
02:07:09,280 --> 02:07:13,800
Speaker 1: Texas for John Tower, when the conservative when the liberal

2300
02:07:13,800 --> 02:07:17,320
Speaker 1: Democrats decided not to help out the conservative Democrats and

2301
02:07:17,320 --> 02:07:20,120
Speaker 1: actually go elect a Republican. That's what happened here. The

2302
02:07:20,120 --> 02:07:23,040
Speaker 1: conservative Republicans retired of the moderate Republicans and they decided

2303
02:07:23,080 --> 02:07:26,080
Speaker 1: to screw it, let's get him out and take over

2304
02:07:26,120 --> 02:07:29,480
Speaker 1: the party. And well it got Simon that Senate seat,

2305
02:07:29,520 --> 02:07:32,920
Speaker 1: even in Reagan's landslide here and the fifth one, I

2306
02:07:33,120 --> 02:07:38,640
Speaker 1: put this one. Look, it's very debatable, and I'm fully

2307
02:07:39,880 --> 02:07:42,120
Speaker 1: I am fully prepared for many of you to say, ah,

2308
02:07:42,200 --> 02:07:44,440
Speaker 1: this doesn't belong in your top five. But is the

2309
02:07:44,520 --> 02:07:49,200
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six Democratic primary chaos and the takeover by

2310
02:07:49,240 --> 02:07:53,040
Speaker 1: the Larouchies. Lyndon Larous is this crazy figure in American politics,

2311
02:07:53,120 --> 02:07:55,720
Speaker 1: has run for president multiple times from prison, and he

2312
02:07:55,760 --> 02:07:58,840
Speaker 1: has his acolytes. And you know, if you're of a

2313
02:07:58,840 --> 02:08:01,840
Speaker 1: certain age, you remember Rushi's setting up trying to recruit

2314
02:08:01,880 --> 02:08:04,920
Speaker 1: people to their movement in front of post offices, and

2315
02:08:04,960 --> 02:08:08,960
Speaker 1: that used to be their primary place of recruitment. You know,

2316
02:08:09,160 --> 02:08:10,880
Speaker 1: in d C. You'd see him on the on the

2317
02:08:10,920 --> 02:08:14,520
Speaker 1: corners near right there near the old Executive Office building,

2318
02:08:14,520 --> 02:08:16,800
Speaker 1: and at Union Station you'd see them and it was

2319
02:08:16,840 --> 02:08:18,800
Speaker 1: always you know, they had a huge conspiracy, you know,

2320
02:08:18,840 --> 02:08:21,000
Speaker 1: there was they could tie Liberal. It was sort of

2321
02:08:21,120 --> 02:08:23,160
Speaker 1: one of these things that talked about, you know, the

2322
02:08:23,240 --> 02:08:25,960
Speaker 1: Queen Elizabeth was a drug cartel and all sorts of

2323
02:08:26,000 --> 02:08:29,680
Speaker 1: weird stuff. But it had a real following there, and

2324
02:08:30,440 --> 02:08:32,560
Speaker 1: probably its peak following was in the eighties, and it

2325
02:08:32,600 --> 02:08:35,760
Speaker 1: was eighty six that it had the peakest of followings.

2326
02:08:36,120 --> 02:08:40,000
Speaker 1: It's the strangest election Illinois may have ever had because

2327
02:08:40,040 --> 02:08:43,680
Speaker 1: two Larouche's entered Democratic primaries for state wide offices, not

2328
02:08:43,840 --> 02:08:47,200
Speaker 1: the top of the ticket, but for other state wide offices.

2329
02:08:47,760 --> 02:08:51,160
Speaker 1: And it was a low turnout, low information primary, and

2330
02:08:51,360 --> 02:08:54,839
Speaker 1: voters picked names they didn't recognize, and two LaRouche candidates,

2331
02:08:54,840 --> 02:08:58,000
Speaker 1: one the lieutenant governor nominee was a gentleman by the

2332
02:08:58,080 --> 02:09:00,240
Speaker 1: name of Mark Fairchild of Larusghi, and a woman named

2333
02:09:00,280 --> 02:09:03,080
Speaker 1: Janis Hart won the nomination for Secretary of State. Well,

2334
02:09:03,120 --> 02:09:06,680
Speaker 1: the Democratic Party was just stunned that essentially their party

2335
02:09:06,680 --> 02:09:10,000
Speaker 1: got high checked by the Larushies. The gubernatorial nominee was

2336
02:09:10,040 --> 02:09:12,760
Speaker 1: their failed nominee from four years earlier, Adelete Stevenson, the

2337
02:09:12,800 --> 02:09:16,480
Speaker 1: third Yes, the son of the one time presidential nominee

2338
02:09:16,520 --> 02:09:20,640
Speaker 1: wo would lose twice to Dwight Eisenhower. Stephenson refused to

2339
02:09:20,720 --> 02:09:22,640
Speaker 1: run with these larushies, did not want to head the

2340
02:09:22,680 --> 02:09:26,720
Speaker 1: ticket right, so he dropped all of the Democratic ticket

2341
02:09:27,240 --> 02:09:30,200
Speaker 1: completely and created a new party, the Illinois Solidarity Party.

2342
02:09:30,520 --> 02:09:32,240
Speaker 1: Because they couldn't figure out how to get rid of

2343
02:09:32,240 --> 02:09:34,840
Speaker 1: the luracies, wouldn't leave, they couldn't fare, so essentially they

2344
02:09:34,880 --> 02:09:38,280
Speaker 1: abandoned the party, which in hindsight was probably the mistake.

2345
02:09:38,840 --> 02:09:43,200
Speaker 1: Obviously the election descendant of chaos, Republicans won in Landslide.

2346
02:09:43,200 --> 02:09:45,880
Speaker 1: It was one of the biggest victories eighty six, a

2347
02:09:45,960 --> 02:09:48,360
Speaker 1: huge Democratic gear nationally by the way, but not in

2348
02:09:48,440 --> 02:09:54,640
Speaker 1: Illinois because of this stupidity, and it was it really

2349
02:09:55,520 --> 02:09:59,080
Speaker 1: was a reminder and actually was an early canary in

2350
02:09:59,080 --> 02:10:01,760
Speaker 1: the coal mine about how much Democrats back then they

2351
02:10:01,760 --> 02:10:04,920
Speaker 1: were always so focused on national politics and not not

2352
02:10:05,200 --> 02:10:08,800
Speaker 1: minding the store at home, right, And when you think

2353
02:10:09,000 --> 02:10:12,560
Speaker 1: that six years later Republicans would just would just sort

2354
02:10:12,600 --> 02:10:16,120
Speaker 1: of out maneuver and out organize the Democratic Party and

2355
02:10:16,160 --> 02:10:19,520
Speaker 1: state legislatures all over the country take over a redistricting process.

2356
02:10:19,840 --> 02:10:23,080
Speaker 1: When you realize, look at this mess that was taking place,

2357
02:10:23,200 --> 02:10:27,280
Speaker 1: and you know, the ultimate machine state Illinois, and the

2358
02:10:27,320 --> 02:10:30,640
Speaker 1: Democratic primary was paying. Party was paying so little attention

2359
02:10:30,680 --> 02:10:32,440
Speaker 1: of what was going on inside its own party that

2360
02:10:32,480 --> 02:10:36,320
Speaker 1: two Larouche's come in. I think, you know, in hindsight,

2361
02:10:36,960 --> 02:10:40,280
Speaker 1: it turns out this was just another piece of evidence

2362
02:10:40,960 --> 02:10:46,160
Speaker 1: of a party that was not was not sort of

2363
02:10:46,200 --> 02:10:50,840
Speaker 1: paying attention to the little things. Every election matters, Every

2364
02:10:50,840 --> 02:10:55,800
Speaker 1: down ballot election matters, every state legislative race matters. Republicans

2365
02:10:55,880 --> 02:10:58,680
Speaker 1: understood that a lot sooner in the modern era than

2366
02:10:58,720 --> 02:11:02,360
Speaker 1: Democrats did. That LAROUCHEI race is one I think for

2367
02:11:02,440 --> 02:11:05,160
Speaker 1: the books, few that I didn't include but could have

2368
02:11:05,160 --> 02:11:07,800
Speaker 1: been worthy and some of your, some of you seventy

2369
02:11:07,800 --> 02:11:11,000
Speaker 1: two governor guy named Dan Walker, he borrows it became

2370
02:11:11,040 --> 02:11:13,120
Speaker 1: the thing to do. He had walking with Lawton Chiles,

2371
02:11:13,120 --> 02:11:15,919
Speaker 1: did it in Florida, Lamar Alexander walk the state of Tennessee,

2372
02:11:15,960 --> 02:11:18,760
Speaker 1: and Dan Walker walked the state of Illinois to quote

2373
02:11:18,800 --> 02:11:21,200
Speaker 1: defeat the machine. The irony is that he would win

2374
02:11:21,200 --> 02:11:23,760
Speaker 1: the governor's race and eventually himself be sent to prison.

2375
02:11:24,520 --> 02:11:27,560
Speaker 1: Rod Bolgoievich two thousand and two governor. The irony to

2376
02:11:27,600 --> 02:11:32,520
Speaker 1: this race is that he wins because of the George

2377
02:11:32,560 --> 02:11:36,720
Speaker 1: Ryan corruption scandal. He actually he gets to run against

2378
02:11:37,000 --> 02:11:39,440
Speaker 1: a guy named Jim Ryan, no relation to George Ryan,

2379
02:11:39,440 --> 02:11:41,200
Speaker 1: who was the Jim Ryan was the ag. There was

2380
02:11:41,200 --> 02:11:44,000
Speaker 1: all sorts of ryety of the Dan Ryan Expressway. There's

2381
02:11:44,000 --> 02:11:46,880
Speaker 1: so many Ryan's in Chicago. That's why I think the

2382
02:11:46,880 --> 02:11:48,960
Speaker 1: Democratic primary they try to always have it in Saint

2383
02:11:49,000 --> 02:11:53,000
Speaker 1: Patty's day, right, it teaz But just having the last

2384
02:11:53,080 --> 02:11:57,520
Speaker 1: name of Ryan was a penalty. And two Bogoyevitch wins

2385
02:11:57,640 --> 02:12:01,120
Speaker 1: because of his scandal and of course becomes literally the

2386
02:12:01,160 --> 02:12:04,879
Speaker 1: next governor. I mean, this was astounding. The governor elected.

2387
02:12:05,200 --> 02:12:08,640
Speaker 1: Basically the two elected governors in a row ninety eight,

2388
02:12:08,680 --> 02:12:14,120
Speaker 1: George Ryan Otu Blagoyevitch both end up serving time. And

2389
02:12:14,160 --> 02:12:17,040
Speaker 1: like I said, Harold Washington nineteen eighty three, Chicago mayor

2390
02:12:17,160 --> 02:12:18,920
Speaker 1: might be another one I'd put on there. So there's

2391
02:12:18,920 --> 02:12:24,440
Speaker 1: my list of the most consequential Illinois Center races. I

2392
02:12:24,480 --> 02:12:27,400
Speaker 1: could you could do it? You do a mini series

2393
02:12:27,480 --> 02:12:30,600
Speaker 1: on Obama two thousand and four, So many butterfly effects

2394
02:12:30,600 --> 02:12:33,320
Speaker 1: of that one. But as you can see Illinois. One

2395
02:12:33,360 --> 02:12:38,920
Speaker 1: thing it has is a rich, rich history of fascinating campaigns.

2396
02:12:39,400 --> 02:12:41,839
Speaker 1: So Netflix, if you're listening and you're ready to greenlight

2397
02:12:41,880 --> 02:12:46,400
Speaker 1: this series, I could literally do an entire season based

2398
02:12:46,440 --> 02:12:49,240
Speaker 1: on the state of Illinois and it's every week kuk

2399
02:12:49,240 --> 02:12:53,240
Speaker 1: Ear and cook ear campaign. So move over, Ryan Murphy,

2400
02:12:53,920 --> 02:13:04,120
Speaker 1: Have I got an American horror story for you? Illinois politics?

2401
02:13:05,840 --> 02:13:11,440
Speaker 1: Ask Chuck. First question comes from John A from New Orleans.

2402
02:13:11,480 --> 02:13:13,880
Speaker 1: He says, Chuck, really appreciate your analysis and want to

2403
02:13:13,920 --> 02:13:16,800
Speaker 1: ask about something that's been frustrating me. When reporters, often women,

2404
02:13:17,040 --> 02:13:19,560
Speaker 1: are publicly denigrated or have their motives questioned by President

2405
02:13:19,600 --> 02:13:22,120
Speaker 1: Trump or members of his administration while they're simply doing

2406
02:13:22,120 --> 02:13:24,240
Speaker 1: their jobs, why don't more journalists push back forcefully in

2407
02:13:24,280 --> 02:13:27,080
Speaker 1: the moment while still remaining professional. It seems like letting

2408
02:13:27,120 --> 02:13:29,640
Speaker 1: those comments go and challenge risks normalizing them or making

2409
02:13:29,720 --> 02:13:32,400
Speaker 1: them seem incredible from your perspective as a journalist. What's

2410
02:13:32,440 --> 02:13:36,120
Speaker 1: the calculation in those situations? Well, I can tell you

2411
02:13:36,160 --> 02:13:38,880
Speaker 1: what the calculation is now, John, which is like, do

2412
02:13:39,280 --> 02:13:42,400
Speaker 1: you want to become a story? Right? Every journalist, especially

2413
02:13:42,440 --> 02:13:45,160
Speaker 1: of a certain generation, and I'm of that generation, where

2414
02:13:45,200 --> 02:13:47,400
Speaker 1: you let the idea is you let your words speak

2415
02:13:47,440 --> 02:13:49,600
Speaker 1: for themselves, you let the reporting speak for themselves. You

2416
02:13:49,600 --> 02:13:51,360
Speaker 1: don't feel like you should have to defend your work.

2417
02:13:51,960 --> 02:13:56,400
Speaker 1: I think that's the biggest mistake we've made collectively over

2418
02:13:56,440 --> 02:13:59,240
Speaker 1: the last twenty five years. And I wrote a whole

2419
02:13:59,320 --> 02:14:02,480
Speaker 1: long opat about this in The Atlantic some fifteen years ago,

2420
02:14:02,560 --> 02:14:05,880
Speaker 1: ten twelve years ago, about the mistake we made not

2421
02:14:06,000 --> 02:14:09,160
Speaker 1: fighting back when Fox character assassinated so many of us

2422
02:14:09,320 --> 02:14:14,600
Speaker 1: for a three or four year period there, and how

2423
02:14:14,760 --> 02:14:21,520
Speaker 1: just we didn't defend our work this specific situation. So

2424
02:14:21,760 --> 02:14:25,200
Speaker 1: I can tell you how I handled myself in these situations. Now,

2425
02:14:26,280 --> 02:14:29,560
Speaker 1: we didn't have anybody like Trump, okay to deal with

2426
02:14:29,880 --> 02:14:33,680
Speaker 1: when I briefly covered Bush but covered more Obama than

2427
02:14:33,680 --> 02:14:36,080
Speaker 1: anybody else in my days at the White House. But

2428
02:14:36,120 --> 02:14:40,400
Speaker 1: when you're in that press pool situation, right when you

2429
02:14:41,480 --> 02:14:46,440
Speaker 1: and I put it this way, Robert Gibbs could be

2430
02:14:50,400 --> 02:14:52,760
Speaker 1: Robert might be listening. He's a friend. I consider him

2431
02:14:52,800 --> 02:14:55,360
Speaker 1: a friend. We've known each other way too long. But

2432
02:14:55,720 --> 02:14:58,920
Speaker 1: we could have our battles publicly on air. You can

2433
02:14:58,960 --> 02:15:00,640
Speaker 1: go back and find some good new two clips of

2434
02:15:00,640 --> 02:15:03,920
Speaker 1: our back and forth, and he could be a little tough,

2435
02:15:04,320 --> 02:15:08,520
Speaker 1: and he could be a bit dismissive, and what if

2436
02:15:08,640 --> 02:15:11,080
Speaker 1: he got dismissive or they got defensive and they were

2437
02:15:11,080 --> 02:15:14,360
Speaker 1: trying to avoid a question in that press room, and

2438
02:15:14,400 --> 02:15:16,400
Speaker 1: it was and then it was my turn to ask

2439
02:15:16,440 --> 02:15:18,680
Speaker 1: a question. You know, I get called on instead of

2440
02:15:18,720 --> 02:15:21,280
Speaker 1: asking my question, I'd simply I'd like to get the

2441
02:15:21,320 --> 02:15:23,800
Speaker 1: answer to that follow up you didn't answer. Let me

2442
02:15:23,840 --> 02:15:28,120
Speaker 1: repeat the follow up that was set over there with

2443
02:15:28,760 --> 02:15:31,120
Speaker 1: To me, that is the professional way to respond. So

2444
02:15:31,520 --> 02:15:36,560
Speaker 1: when he denigrates Caitlin Collins or something like that, refute

2445
02:15:37,160 --> 02:15:41,080
Speaker 1: and then mister President, I'd like to repeat the question

2446
02:15:41,360 --> 02:15:45,800
Speaker 1: you again, and then you literally repeat Caitlyn's question in

2447
02:15:45,840 --> 02:15:50,840
Speaker 1: that situation that he denigrates, but you make it clear

2448
02:15:50,960 --> 02:15:53,840
Speaker 1: trying to get the question answered. So I think that's

2449
02:15:53,880 --> 02:15:57,880
Speaker 1: the best way to do it, because ultimately, you're you're

2450
02:15:58,120 --> 02:15:59,720
Speaker 1: you know, I always say, when you're asking questions of

2451
02:15:59,760 --> 02:16:02,920
Speaker 1: the press, you're a stand in for the public, so

2452
02:16:03,080 --> 02:16:05,720
Speaker 1: you know, and so get to get him answered. And

2453
02:16:05,840 --> 02:16:08,840
Speaker 1: when you're working in a collective environment, even though you

2454
02:16:08,920 --> 02:16:11,800
Speaker 1: compete with other news organizations, ultimately we're all trying to

2455
02:16:11,840 --> 02:16:13,760
Speaker 1: do the same thing, which has surface more information out

2456
02:16:13,760 --> 02:16:17,600
Speaker 1: of this administration, and in that sense, you should have

2457
02:16:17,680 --> 02:16:20,320
Speaker 1: the back of your colleagues. Now I can say today's

2458
02:16:20,320 --> 02:16:24,000
Speaker 1: calculation is there's fear of retribution from Trump, there's fear

2459
02:16:24,040 --> 02:16:27,040
Speaker 1: of losing access, and then there's the pressure that comes

2460
02:16:27,080 --> 02:16:29,960
Speaker 1: from their bosses, particularly if you work for a more

2461
02:16:30,000 --> 02:16:33,680
Speaker 1: well known news brand that where the corporate parent cares

2462
02:16:33,720 --> 02:16:37,680
Speaker 1: more about their image than the journalist's integrity. Which, again

2463
02:16:37,800 --> 02:16:42,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say something. All I'm looking I'm waiting for

2464
02:16:42,160 --> 02:16:46,520
Speaker 1: the three heads of the corporations that own the three

2465
02:16:46,560 --> 02:16:50,640
Speaker 1: broadcast news divisions that Brendan cars threatened to stand up

2466
02:16:50,680 --> 02:16:52,879
Speaker 1: for those journalists, and they have not publicly stood up

2467
02:16:52,879 --> 02:16:57,000
Speaker 1: for those journalists. Brian Roberts, Bob Eiger, David Ellison, speak up,

2468
02:16:58,040 --> 02:17:01,400
Speaker 1: speak up. If you don't, you're sending the message to

2469
02:17:01,400 --> 02:17:04,120
Speaker 1: your journalists that you do not have their back. So

2470
02:17:04,200 --> 02:17:07,680
Speaker 1: what Brendan Carr has said is operable if you do

2471
02:17:07,720 --> 02:17:11,560
Speaker 1: not speak up and defend your journalists. So get your

2472
02:17:11,560 --> 02:17:15,800
Speaker 1: shit together, guys, and defend your journalists. You don't have

2473
02:17:15,840 --> 02:17:19,000
Speaker 1: to attack the president. You can defend your journalists without

2474
02:17:19,040 --> 02:17:24,600
Speaker 1: attacking anybody and making it political. Defend their integrity. This

2475
02:17:24,640 --> 02:17:28,080
Speaker 1: is something you have refused to do for years, and

2476
02:17:28,120 --> 02:17:31,800
Speaker 1: here we are. But in this case, to your question, John,

2477
02:17:31,879 --> 02:17:35,080
Speaker 1: that's to me the best way to do that. Next

2478
02:17:35,160 --> 02:17:37,200
Speaker 1: question goes from Jason from Virginia. Hey check. One thing

2479
02:17:37,200 --> 02:17:38,760
Speaker 1: I really enjoy about the new format is the chance

2480
02:17:38,800 --> 02:17:40,720
Speaker 1: to ask questions and interact with the show. I'm curious

2481
02:17:40,920 --> 02:17:43,240
Speaker 1: there are lessons from sports fandom that could help reduce

2482
02:17:43,280 --> 02:17:45,680
Speaker 1: polarization and politics. For example, I might feel about Miami

2483
02:17:45,720 --> 02:17:48,480
Speaker 1: as a uf alum the way you feel about Florida,

2484
02:17:48,560 --> 02:17:51,040
Speaker 1: but we could still easily talk sports and laugh about it.

2485
02:17:51,320 --> 02:17:53,240
Speaker 1: Why does politics feel so much harder? And how do

2486
02:17:53,280 --> 02:17:55,560
Speaker 1: we get back to recognizing the things we actually agree on.

2487
02:17:56,560 --> 02:17:59,280
Speaker 1: I think about this a lot when people attack Kirk

2488
02:17:59,320 --> 02:18:04,320
Speaker 1: kurb Street and I've I've I've probably taken a shot

2489
02:18:04,360 --> 02:18:06,640
Speaker 1: or two at herb Street over the years because I've

2490
02:18:06,680 --> 02:18:09,520
Speaker 1: been frustrated about something ESPN has done and right, and

2491
02:18:09,560 --> 02:18:11,879
Speaker 1: there's this feeling that he's the voice of college football

2492
02:18:11,920 --> 02:18:14,760
Speaker 1: and so and you know, people will say, well, he's

2493
02:18:14,800 --> 02:18:16,560
Speaker 1: in the tank for Clemson, or he's in the you

2494
02:18:16,560 --> 02:18:18,880
Speaker 1: know because his kids are on Clemson's team, or he's

2495
02:18:18,879 --> 02:18:20,360
Speaker 1: in the tank for Ohio State, or he's in the

2496
02:18:20,360 --> 02:18:24,240
Speaker 1: tank for the SEC and and then I think about

2497
02:18:24,280 --> 02:18:26,000
Speaker 1: it when he does the ridiculous which I kind of

2498
02:18:26,000 --> 02:18:29,320
Speaker 1: think is ridiculous. He will he will make predictions about

2499
02:18:29,320 --> 02:18:31,360
Speaker 1: every game except the ones he calls, and you're like,

2500
02:18:31,680 --> 02:18:34,360
Speaker 1: you know, I don't. I think you can sort of.

2501
02:18:34,440 --> 02:18:39,000
Speaker 1: I get it's sort of like a phony attempt at integrity,

2502
02:18:39,040 --> 02:18:43,400
Speaker 1: and I just think that's silly. But I have empathy

2503
02:18:43,440 --> 02:18:46,640
Speaker 1: for him because I think this. You know, I can't

2504
02:18:46,640 --> 02:18:48,720
Speaker 1: tell you how many college sports fans watch a game

2505
02:18:48,720 --> 02:18:53,959
Speaker 1: and are convinced the announcers are against them. My I

2506
02:18:54,000 --> 02:18:56,120
Speaker 1: have a relative. I'm not going to single out their

2507
02:18:56,160 --> 02:18:59,520
Speaker 1: relationship to me, because I'll just let them assume I'm

2508
02:18:59,520 --> 02:19:02,840
Speaker 1: talking about them, but not actually have them know I'm

2509
02:19:02,879 --> 02:19:05,160
Speaker 1: talking about them in this case, but I have a

2510
02:19:05,200 --> 02:19:08,480
Speaker 1: relative who always assumes that the announcers are against Miami.

2511
02:19:09,560 --> 02:19:14,680
Speaker 1: And look, there has been era Parsigian was against Miami

2512
02:19:14,720 --> 02:19:18,560
Speaker 1: when calling Notre Dame games. That was obvious, and we

2513
02:19:18,600 --> 02:19:21,600
Speaker 1: saw it in the famous eighty seven game when Miami

2514
02:19:21,640 --> 02:19:25,280
Speaker 1: kicked Notre Dame's ass and our era cried on television

2515
02:19:25,280 --> 02:19:27,320
Speaker 1: that how dare somebody run up the score against Notre Dame?

2516
02:19:27,360 --> 02:19:28,760
Speaker 1: When Notre Dame. All they did was run up the

2517
02:19:28,800 --> 02:19:31,119
Speaker 1: score when he was their coach. But that neither here

2518
02:19:31,160 --> 02:19:35,080
Speaker 1: nor there. But the point is, nine times out of ten,

2519
02:19:35,240 --> 02:19:41,200
Speaker 1: the announcers are just trying to essentially go with the game, right.

2520
02:19:41,280 --> 02:19:43,800
Speaker 1: If the game is going in one direction, you sound

2521
02:19:43,840 --> 02:19:45,440
Speaker 1: like you're in the tank for one direction. You know,

2522
02:19:45,480 --> 02:19:49,959
Speaker 1: you just sort of move at the game. And so

2523
02:19:50,080 --> 02:19:53,760
Speaker 1: I've long thought about it that way, So I put

2524
02:19:53,760 --> 02:19:56,200
Speaker 1: it this way. I don't take attacks personally. You know,

2525
02:19:57,040 --> 02:19:58,800
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how often I would get it.

2526
02:19:59,400 --> 02:20:03,160
Speaker 1: You know, you see your tone changed when you interviewed

2527
02:20:03,240 --> 02:20:06,720
Speaker 1: a Democrat versus when you interviewed a Republican. I don't

2528
02:20:06,720 --> 02:20:09,240
Speaker 1: think my tone changed. I think you're listening with a

2529
02:20:09,280 --> 02:20:12,560
Speaker 1: different ear because you're making a presumption about a bias

2530
02:20:12,640 --> 02:20:16,840
Speaker 1: that you think is there, but you don't have evidence

2531
02:20:16,840 --> 02:20:18,039
Speaker 1: of it. So you're now you're going to try to

2532
02:20:18,200 --> 02:20:22,080
Speaker 1: use facial expressions in tone. Right, Like what I used

2533
02:20:22,080 --> 02:20:24,600
Speaker 1: to say is all right, this is somebody who's already

2534
02:20:24,600 --> 02:20:27,360
Speaker 1: a partisan. Right, I used to say, the worst people

2535
02:20:27,560 --> 02:20:29,800
Speaker 1: to talk about whether somebody is being fair or not

2536
02:20:29,800 --> 02:20:32,520
Speaker 1: as a partisan, because a partisan is looking for people

2537
02:20:32,520 --> 02:20:34,560
Speaker 1: that agree with them. They're not looking for fairness, They're

2538
02:20:34,600 --> 02:20:39,720
Speaker 1: looking for bias. That's the irony here. So the point

2539
02:20:39,800 --> 02:20:41,240
Speaker 1: is is that I do think about the coverage of

2540
02:20:41,240 --> 02:20:43,280
Speaker 1: college football and the passion that's behind it, and how

2541
02:20:43,360 --> 02:20:46,800
Speaker 1: quickly we assume someone's against our team or whatever, to

2542
02:20:46,959 --> 02:20:51,600
Speaker 1: be a little more patient with critics when people want

2543
02:20:51,640 --> 02:20:54,520
Speaker 1: to make assumptions about because what I have found is

2544
02:20:54,520 --> 02:21:00,960
Speaker 1: when I have substantive conversations with a critic, they're pretty

2545
02:21:01,040 --> 02:21:03,560
Speaker 1: rational and they sort of they get exactly what I'm saying,

2546
02:21:03,640 --> 02:21:07,720
Speaker 1: and they kind of while without fully acknowledging that they

2547
02:21:07,720 --> 02:21:10,880
Speaker 1: were looking at me through their own bias, not through

2548
02:21:10,920 --> 02:21:15,560
Speaker 1: my bias, that you can have some rational discussion. So

2549
02:21:15,600 --> 02:21:17,920
Speaker 1: I do in that sense. I do. But look, this

2550
02:21:18,000 --> 02:21:19,640
Speaker 1: is why I'm a big fan of using sports in

2551
02:21:19,680 --> 02:21:22,280
Speaker 1: my interviews with many politicians, because I do think it's

2552
02:21:22,280 --> 02:21:24,720
Speaker 1: a way to remind people we have plenty in common

2553
02:21:25,160 --> 02:21:28,400
Speaker 1: even when we disagree. And by the way, I'm sorry

2554
02:21:28,400 --> 02:21:31,640
Speaker 1: you have to root for the Gators. Next question comes

2555
02:21:31,680 --> 02:21:35,080
Speaker 1: from Matthew. Matthew from Bourbon, Indiana, big fan of the show.

2556
02:21:35,120 --> 02:21:36,880
Speaker 1: How much do you think Trump's gutting of the State

2557
02:21:36,920 --> 02:21:38,720
Speaker 1: Department last year led to the failed planning to have

2558
02:21:38,760 --> 02:21:40,720
Speaker 1: an effective evacuation plan in the Middle EAGs during the

2559
02:21:40,760 --> 02:21:43,440
Speaker 1: Iranian War. As you mentioned in your previous episode, there

2560
02:21:43,520 --> 02:21:45,240
Speaker 1: was a large military build up prior to the launch

2561
02:21:45,240 --> 02:21:47,040
Speaker 1: of the war, But the State Department is the agency

2562
02:21:47,040 --> 02:21:50,560
Speaker 1: that leads non combatant evacuation operations, not the military. Appreciates

2563
02:21:50,560 --> 02:21:53,800
Speaker 1: your inside Matthew, Look, it's not just that. How about

2564
02:21:54,400 --> 02:21:58,640
Speaker 1: dismanling USAID and failing to be a support mechanism for

2565
02:21:58,920 --> 02:22:02,520
Speaker 1: the opposition inside of Iran and helping the opposition be

2566
02:22:02,680 --> 02:22:05,720
Speaker 1: ready for a moment that that we were trying to

2567
02:22:05,760 --> 02:22:08,840
Speaker 1: create for them. You know, I think part of the

2568
02:22:09,640 --> 02:22:11,879
Speaker 1: both you know, this is going to be a This

2569
02:22:12,160 --> 02:22:14,560
Speaker 1: war is going to be the definition of tactical success,

2570
02:22:16,080 --> 02:22:20,720
Speaker 1: but overall failure because we blew this. You know, we

2571
02:22:20,920 --> 02:22:24,080
Speaker 1: we blew up our soft power capabilities over the last

2572
02:22:24,440 --> 02:22:29,320
Speaker 1: year and change, and those soft powder power capabilities were

2573
02:22:29,440 --> 02:22:31,680
Speaker 1: just not you know, you can have all the hard

2574
02:22:31,680 --> 02:22:33,560
Speaker 1: power you want, but if you don't have those soft

2575
02:22:33,560 --> 02:22:37,960
Speaker 1: power capabilities, then you don't have the ability to essentially

2576
02:22:38,920 --> 02:22:45,680
Speaker 1: use your tactical success to cement a diplomatic achievement. And

2577
02:22:45,760 --> 02:22:48,440
Speaker 1: so I think I think there's a direct correlation here

2578
02:22:48,480 --> 02:22:52,840
Speaker 1: with our failure in Iran, and I say, look, we

2579
02:22:52,840 --> 02:22:54,760
Speaker 1: should be careful here. It's not it's not a lost

2580
02:22:54,760 --> 02:22:57,840
Speaker 1: cause yet. It's it's possible that there's a the regime

2581
02:22:57,879 --> 02:22:59,959
Speaker 1: gets toppled and we can get to a better place.

2582
02:23:00,879 --> 02:23:04,200
Speaker 1: But this was this was a pretty poorly executed Well,

2583
02:23:04,200 --> 02:23:06,400
Speaker 1: we may have a tactical military victory here, it's a

2584
02:23:06,400 --> 02:23:09,280
Speaker 1: pretty poorly executed strategy because we don't know what the

2585
02:23:09,320 --> 02:23:13,440
Speaker 1: strategy is, what is the endgame, And now it's probably

2586
02:23:13,480 --> 02:23:17,520
Speaker 1: going to be filled with mission creep because if if

2587
02:23:17,560 --> 02:23:19,959
Speaker 1: you leave now, it only keeps it only keeps the

2588
02:23:19,959 --> 02:23:21,880
Speaker 1: regime and power. You've made things worse and oh, by

2589
02:23:21,879 --> 02:23:24,280
Speaker 1: the way, you screwed up the global economy. So in

2590
02:23:24,440 --> 02:23:27,480
Speaker 1: order to make this, in order probably to keep this

2591
02:23:27,560 --> 02:23:31,240
Speaker 1: mistake from being worse, we're going to have to escalate

2592
02:23:31,280 --> 02:23:33,840
Speaker 1: in ways that the public's not going to find very popular.

2593
02:23:34,920 --> 02:23:40,000
Speaker 1: But yes, I think dismantling usaid, I think there's both

2594
02:23:40,040 --> 02:23:43,520
Speaker 1: indirect and direct impact. The gutting of the State Department

2595
02:23:43,879 --> 02:23:47,560
Speaker 1: is a huge reason why we are failing in the

2596
02:23:47,600 --> 02:23:52,760
Speaker 1: soft power part of this Iranian war. Last question for

2597
02:23:52,840 --> 02:23:57,160
Speaker 1: this episode, it comes from Dan and Fairfax. Hey, did

2598
02:23:57,240 --> 02:23:59,360
Speaker 1: Governor Spamberger just tee up at GOP wave during the

2599
02:23:59,400 --> 02:24:01,400
Speaker 1: next round of st legislative elections. A lot of what

2600
02:24:01,560 --> 02:24:03,640
Speaker 1: she signed in the law will get activists upset, but

2601
02:24:03,680 --> 02:24:06,520
Speaker 1: the gun control measures might result in role voters turning

2602
02:24:06,520 --> 02:24:08,920
Speaker 1: out in droves. Northern Virginian's rich in residents and those

2603
02:24:08,920 --> 02:24:11,240
Speaker 1: in the Tidewater might support gun controlled by I bettet's

2604
02:24:11,240 --> 02:24:12,600
Speaker 1: an eighty twenty issue in the rest of the state.

2605
02:24:12,879 --> 02:24:14,880
Speaker 1: Thanks Dan and Fairfax. That's an interesting way of looking

2606
02:24:14,920 --> 02:24:16,920
Speaker 1: at it. I just think in general, this has been

2607
02:24:16,959 --> 02:24:23,800
Speaker 1: the most partisan start of any of any Democratic governor

2608
02:24:24,080 --> 02:24:28,040
Speaker 1: in the twenty first century that we've had, right Warner, Caine, mccauliffe.

2609
02:24:28,160 --> 02:24:31,520
Speaker 1: You go through she's and yet she didn't run as

2610
02:24:31,560 --> 02:24:34,160
Speaker 1: a partisan, and I don't think she is as partisan

2611
02:24:34,200 --> 02:24:36,959
Speaker 1: as the legislature is now. It's sort of like what

2612
02:24:37,000 --> 02:24:39,800
Speaker 1: happened to my friend Pat McCrory North Carolina. The legislature

2613
02:24:39,840 --> 02:24:42,440
Speaker 1: sort of dragged him into these conservative causes that he

2614
02:24:42,520 --> 02:24:45,320
Speaker 1: never wanted to be was running on and governing on.

2615
02:24:45,440 --> 02:24:47,240
Speaker 1: And I have a feeling spam Burger is feeling the

2616
02:24:47,240 --> 02:24:49,680
Speaker 1: same way here. She's the governor, but she's being dragged into,

2617
02:24:50,280 --> 02:24:53,640
Speaker 1: dragged into signing legislation that she may generally be supportive of,

2618
02:24:53,680 --> 02:24:58,320
Speaker 1: but not necessarily wanting to prioritize by a very very

2619
02:24:58,320 --> 02:25:04,360
Speaker 1: aggressive legislature. Right now, look, I think these this is,

2620
02:25:04,720 --> 02:25:07,520
Speaker 1: this is dangerous territory. But we'll see the numbers of

2621
02:25:07,560 --> 02:25:10,800
Speaker 1: the numbers. I mean, northern Virginia, Richmond and Tidewater may

2622
02:25:11,600 --> 02:25:14,680
Speaker 1: may just be that much bigger of entities. I mean,

2623
02:25:15,920 --> 02:25:18,480
Speaker 1: this is an interesting if if guns alone or that,

2624
02:25:18,640 --> 02:25:23,959
Speaker 1: I think the vulnerability guns might rally your rural voters,

2625
02:25:24,760 --> 02:25:27,800
Speaker 1: which which certainly can matter a bit. I think the

2626
02:25:27,840 --> 02:25:31,720
Speaker 1: bigger thing is how partisan and sort of the you know,

2627
02:25:33,080 --> 02:25:36,560
Speaker 1: slamming through. I mean, I just find this entire redistricting

2628
02:25:36,600 --> 02:25:40,800
Speaker 1: referendum and the messaging campaign and the gas lighting. I just, oh,

2629
02:25:41,480 --> 02:25:44,200
Speaker 1: I hate this. I know, I'm a good government guy.

2630
02:25:44,240 --> 02:25:47,480
Speaker 1: I'm a pro democracy person, so I hate every part

2631
02:25:47,520 --> 02:25:50,880
Speaker 1: of this redistricting war left and right. Okay, this is

2632
02:25:51,480 --> 02:25:55,080
Speaker 1: this fight fire with fire is only going to damage everybody.

2633
02:25:55,360 --> 02:25:58,160
Speaker 1: I mean, it reminds me of a joke that my

2634
02:25:58,520 --> 02:26:01,880
Speaker 1: an old friend of mine named Matt Cooper, editor over

2635
02:26:01,920 --> 02:26:05,240
Speaker 1: at Washington Monthly, now great reporter at Newsweek, back when

2636
02:26:05,280 --> 02:26:08,360
Speaker 1: Newsweek was Newsweek. The twentieth century newswek no twenty first

2637
02:26:08,360 --> 02:26:12,160
Speaker 1: century Newsweek. But Matthew Cooper used to do some stand

2638
02:26:12,240 --> 02:26:13,480
Speaker 1: up comedy.

2639
02:26:13,080 --> 02:26:18,480
Speaker 4: And he's and he had this ref about, you know,

2640
02:26:18,520 --> 02:26:22,440
Speaker 4: imagine if the beer companies behaved like political candidates do

2641
02:26:22,560 --> 02:26:23,840
Speaker 4: in their TV ads.

2642
02:26:24,800 --> 02:26:27,160
Speaker 1: And you know, and bud Light and Miller Lte went

2643
02:26:27,200 --> 02:26:29,840
Speaker 1: after each other, and bud Light ran an ad that said,

2644
02:26:29,840 --> 02:26:33,400
Speaker 1: Miller Light claims it's less filling, but what they don't

2645
02:26:33,440 --> 02:26:36,959
Speaker 1: tell you and they just start reading the ingredients of

2646
02:26:37,040 --> 02:26:40,200
Speaker 1: the beer that with the five syllable words and all

2647
02:26:40,200 --> 02:26:43,320
Speaker 1: this stuff, you know, and then you'd have a response

2648
02:26:43,360 --> 02:26:46,480
Speaker 1: ad going Miller going negative on bud Light. They claim

2649
02:26:46,560 --> 02:26:48,520
Speaker 1: they're the king of beers. But what they don't tell

2650
02:26:48,560 --> 02:26:50,480
Speaker 1: you is, you know, that sort of thing that eventually

2651
02:26:50,560 --> 02:26:52,760
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be that, as he said, people wouldn't just

2652
02:26:52,800 --> 02:26:55,760
Speaker 1: stop drinking Budweiser drinking Miller Light. They just simply stopped

2653
02:26:55,800 --> 02:27:00,240
Speaker 1: drinking beer. And his point was that's what's happened to politics, right, Well,

2654
02:27:00,280 --> 02:27:03,280
Speaker 1: this is my concern about what Democrats have done here

2655
02:27:03,360 --> 02:27:08,200
Speaker 1: with this basically deciding the best way to unrig our

2656
02:27:08,240 --> 02:27:12,440
Speaker 1: democracy is to rig the democracy, right, you know, the

2657
02:27:12,480 --> 02:27:16,480
Speaker 1: best way to enfranchise voters that have been disenfranchised in

2658
02:27:16,520 --> 02:27:20,080
Speaker 1: Texas is to disenfranchised voters in Virginia or in California.

2659
02:27:20,520 --> 02:27:26,200
Speaker 1: It's just not going. It's just doesn't stand up to scrutiny, right,

2660
02:27:26,240 --> 02:27:29,240
Speaker 1: and it doesn't pass the logic test. And all it

2661
02:27:29,320 --> 02:27:34,600
Speaker 1: does is just fuel the cynicism of politics that ultimately

2662
02:27:34,640 --> 02:27:37,840
Speaker 1: they just want power, and the parties will take any

2663
02:27:37,840 --> 02:27:42,040
Speaker 1: shortcut to power, and they'll use any rationale to grab power.

2664
02:27:43,080 --> 02:27:51,560
Speaker 1: And that's that's the and that's the cynical response from

2665
02:27:51,560 --> 02:27:53,960
Speaker 1: the voter that I fear is coming. If we're if

2666
02:27:53,959 --> 02:27:57,320
Speaker 1: we're if we're all not careful there. All right, let

2667
02:27:57,360 --> 02:28:00,160
Speaker 1: me get off the soapbox here, because guess what, I'll

2668
02:28:00,160 --> 02:28:03,440
Speaker 1: be back in twenty four hours. And with that, thanks

2669
02:28:03,480 --> 02:28:03,920
Speaker 1: for listening.