1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of I Heart Radio Icarus. Sons. 2 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 1: Sons are roped to fathers. Fathers. Well, are we sure 3 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: they're tied to sons? Sons need fathers fathers. Sons take 4 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: years from fathers. Honest fathers. Know this picture an hourglass, 5 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: two globes, one filled, the other empty. Now in your mind, 6 00:00:38,080 --> 00:00:40,880 Speaker 1: turn it over. The top of the globe, the father, 7 00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: the grains of sand, his years. The bottom of the globe. 8 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: That's the son. See the years slipping away from the father, 9 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: filling up the son. Father's flow into sons. Think of Icarus. 10 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: Father and son exist on an isle. At some point. 11 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 1: The father longs to escape and the son he doesn't 12 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: want to be left behind, abandoned. And fathers they always 13 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: have plans. What sons should remember that the plans of 14 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: their fathers often have holes. A father is no shield 15 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:26,960 Speaker 1: for a son. That's Michael Haney reading a passage from 16 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: his Beautiful book after visiting Friends. A Son's story. What 17 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,760 Speaker 1: happens when a boy loses his father at a tender age, 18 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: an age so young that he hardly remembers him, and 19 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,640 Speaker 1: that boy grows up to become a journalist digging for 20 00:01:43,720 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: answers to questions he's always had about the nature of 21 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: his father's death, questions that have formed him, questions that 22 00:01:51,840 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 1: beg for answers. I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family secrets, 23 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,920 Speaker 1: the secrets that are kept from us, the secrets we 24 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 1: keep from others, and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 25 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:28,839 Speaker 1: I feel like I remember nothing before a and that 26 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: was the morning, shortly after I turned six years old, 27 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: that I learned my father was dead, and h up 28 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: until then, I think. I mean as I say, I 29 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 1: don't remember much, but I don't have reason to remember 30 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,680 Speaker 1: anything bad. It was a pretty pleasant childhood, I think 31 00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: I was. I just turned six. I have had an 32 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: older brother, Chris, who was eight. My mother was thirty 33 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: three at the time, my father was thirty five, and 34 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: we were living in a suburb of Chicago, right on 35 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: the border of Chicago, out near the Airport O'Hare. And 36 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: it was I think, probably pleasant by all accounts and um, 37 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,360 Speaker 1: but you know, it was that formative moment which I 38 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,400 Speaker 1: think has defined my life, when that was my father's death. 39 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: When you say that you have no memories before that moment, 40 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: do you really mean no memories like I would say, 41 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: in the excavation and looking back over my life, I 42 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: would see when I was when I was working on 43 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,880 Speaker 1: searching for this story. I would remember moments where I 44 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: would be sort of flipping through photo album from you 45 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: know that my mother had kept and I could remember, Oh, 46 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: that was Christmas when I was four, or that I 47 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: think I remember taking that trip. But you know, I 48 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 1: think also developmentally from what I've known in my time 49 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: spending a lot of time on the couch, is children 50 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: often don't remember much until age five. Really there's a reason, 51 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: and they sort of developed and sort of that's when 52 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,160 Speaker 1: kindergarten begins, and that's when one sort of memory sort 53 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: of locks in. And so um, I shouldn't certainly don't 54 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:10,960 Speaker 1: mean to be dramatic and say I don't remember much, 55 00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: but I really it's was as though that was when, 56 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: you know, the curtain went up on my life. So 57 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: tell me about that moment, what you remember. My brother 58 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,480 Speaker 1: and I shared a small bedroom in a small house 59 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,839 Speaker 1: sort of row house townhouse, and my father was a 60 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: newspaper editor. He worked what was called the lobster shift, 61 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 1: which meant you worked from six pm until three am 62 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: closing the morning edition. And my brother and I shared 63 00:04:42,279 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: this room, and I was in kindergarten and my brother 64 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: was in second grade. So it was very common that 65 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 1: we would wake up and come downstairs for breakfast, and 66 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,719 Speaker 1: my father would be there already, having just come home, 67 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: and he would wait up for us at breakfast and 68 00:04:56,920 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: then usually sort of go to sleep. But it was 69 00:04:59,880 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: a beautiful sunny morning. I remember it because the sun 70 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: was kind of searing the edges of the shade that 71 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: was drawn in our bedroom. And our mother came in 72 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: to wake us up, and I always remember she was 73 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: just very happy. And as she was waking us up, 74 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: we slept in these twin beds side by side. The 75 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: doorbell rang, which was unusual. My mother went to the 76 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: shade and in our bedroom and she raised the shade, 77 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: and she remember standing on my brother's bed with him 78 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: with my mother and looking down and seeing my grandparents, 79 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: my mother's parents, and my father's brother on the back porch. 80 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,280 Speaker 1: And the next thing I remember is my mother had 81 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: gone downstairs, and my brother and I standing on the 82 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: top of the staircase and we could hear her crying, 83 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,720 Speaker 1: and my brother and I went downstairs, stood on the 84 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: edge of the kitchen and I and my uncle turning 85 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: to my mother, who was sitting on the chair and saying, 86 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 1: the boys are here. And at that point she pulled 87 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,039 Speaker 1: us together and said, your father's dead. And that was 88 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: the morning. Describe your father for me. Describe him as 89 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 1: you remember him in you know, in the brief time 90 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,119 Speaker 1: that you had with him. I don't think you answer 91 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 1: for asked me that question. I have two memories. One 92 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:28,200 Speaker 1: is I remember he loved to wrestle with my brother 93 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: and me, And by that I mean I can remember 94 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 1: after dinner on the living room floor just doing what 95 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,160 Speaker 1: a father does, who's letting two boys sort of crawl 96 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: over him and, you know, sort of test your strength 97 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:47,040 Speaker 1: against him. And I also remember, you know, after dinner, 98 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: he would be at the table and he'd usually often 99 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: have happen some of him holding up a palm for 100 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: each of us, my brother and myself, sitting in his 101 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 1: kitchen chair. Yeah, and one poem in front of my brother, 102 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,280 Speaker 1: one palm in front of me, and each of us 103 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 1: making little fists and sort of punching at his open palm, 104 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: and him sort of exaggerated like, oh, it's so strong, 105 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: you guys are so strong. I also remember him teaching 106 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: me to write a two wheel blake. So I remember 107 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: those things, small moments like that, vivid, you know, concrete, 108 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: But I don't remember any words. And how about your 109 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 1: mother from that time? I mean with your mother, you 110 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: have a before and you haven't after your father, you 111 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: only have a before. Two memories, I'd say have ur 112 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 1: I was. I was also a boy who seems to 113 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: have gotten into a number of scrapes. By that, I 114 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: mean I once knocks to teeth out. They had to 115 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: take me to a hospital for stitches. I once fell 116 00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: and sort of cut my head open. And it seems 117 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: like my my memories of my mother were always kind 118 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: of scooping me up and take me to the hospital 119 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,119 Speaker 1: for stitches and um. But I again, I don't really 120 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: I don't remember words. I couldn't tell you anything that 121 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: they ever really said to me until that morning. And 122 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 1: you do remember the words from that morning. But it's 123 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: interesting too that what have you remember the weather? Because 124 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: I have this theory about trauma and the weather and memory, 125 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: and there's just something about or even I mean for me, 126 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: like what I was wearing in woman's like that, or 127 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: everything becomes very very vivid in a in a kind 128 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: of sensory way and just becomes sort of imprinted. You're 129 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:43,840 Speaker 1: exactly right, and and forever I've not like the Spring 130 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,840 Speaker 1: and which is married now, but when I used to date, 131 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: and I'll be like, oh my god, Spring, it's so fun. 132 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: It's as I could never pinpoint why I would sink 133 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:58,359 Speaker 1: into some kind of depression worse than usual in springtime. 134 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:07,559 Speaker 1: And I think it's some deep vibration that it's just there. 135 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 1: You then you and your brother and your mother go 136 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 1: on with your lives and she's now a single mom, 137 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: and you and your brother are growing up without a dad. 138 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:20,079 Speaker 1: What did you as you were growing up understand about 139 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:26,520 Speaker 1: your father's death? We were told that he had been 140 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: working late, as he always does, and that he when 141 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 1: he had left the office of the newspaper was walking 142 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:40,199 Speaker 1: to his car and had a heart attack and died 143 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: on the street and some police found him, and that's 144 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: what happened to him. And in those years of your 145 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 1: childhood and being a teenager, how did that sit with you? 146 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: Did you question that story at all? All the time? 147 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 1: And I think this is what if you've had traum, 148 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: you will understand it. If and if you haven't, maybe 149 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: you will too. But seven, eight nine years old idea 150 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: and I just you know, you will tell me again, mom, 151 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 1: what happened? Right? And I think this is even informed 152 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: by the basic watching TV shows when you're a kid 153 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,040 Speaker 1: and you see how the police work, and beginning with 154 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: i'd say, but I don't understand why did Uncle Dick 155 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: come and tell us? Why didn't the police come and 156 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: tell us? Because that's what happens in the TV shows. 157 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: My mom would say, Oh, I don't know, that's just 158 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 1: the way it was. I mean, I you know, she 159 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 1: was not I think, actively deceiving me. It's just like, well, 160 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: that's just she didn't think either, But it was it 161 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: just I think part of it was I would hear like, well, 162 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,360 Speaker 1: he died on the street, and I would just, being 163 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: like I said, eight nine, ten years old, I would 164 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: just lay in bed a night and picture him dead 165 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:50,960 Speaker 1: on a street in Chicago and the police finding him, 166 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 1: and then okay, so then why do they call Uncle Dick? 167 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: Why wouldn't they call the house? And beginning at that age, 168 00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: it's just then square with me. I think about it 169 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,080 Speaker 1: all the time, and yet my house was a house 170 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: of enormous silence, and so I never really asked my 171 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 1: mother that much whim. Every so often I'd find the 172 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: courage to ask her, why do you think? Or why 173 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: what about this? But I lived in such through the 174 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: mind of a child I see now who suffered trauma. 175 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: I lived with great fear that if I upset her, 176 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: I could lose her too. I would believe it. So 177 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: I kept a lot of these questions to myself, and 178 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 1: I would just work them over in my own mind, 179 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,839 Speaker 1: even though I was desperate to ask her. Someone what 180 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: they might know what I never did. We'll be right back. 181 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: In that enormous silence that so often surrounds trauma, a 182 00:12:02,640 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: child's mind plays tricks. I think this happens to all 183 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,600 Speaker 1: of us who have experienced a cleaving loss, but particularly 184 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: a young child who has no tools, no way to deal. 185 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: And so Michael is ever vigilant. His magical thinking tells 186 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: him that loss begets loss, tragedy, tragedy. He can control 187 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: the world and keep his mother, his brother, and himself 188 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: safe if he stays watchful but silent. You grow up 189 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: and become a journalist. In a way, even the questions 190 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: the wise that you were asking as a child were 191 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 1: the questions of someone who might grow up and become 192 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: a journalist. Need to drill down, need to know, need 193 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: to get to the bottom of the story. I know 194 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: there's a part of me that made the decision to 195 00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 1: live out his life. Because what you have to understand 196 00:13:02,679 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: is my father kept these meticulous scrap books from the 197 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:12,160 Speaker 1: time he was probably in kindergarten, and they go from 198 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: kindergarten through college through grad school. And they were really 199 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: all I had of him. And they were kept in 200 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: the bottom of this bookcase. And I discovered them when 201 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: I was a boy, and I would always wait until 202 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: my mother was out of the house and then I 203 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: would go to them, and to me, they were this 204 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: almost like I hope I'm using this story away with 205 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: like this talmudic kind of documented to all these evidence 206 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: to piece together a life. I would see this boy 207 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: growing up, everything from report cards to mother's day cards 208 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:50,599 Speaker 1: he made for his mother when he was eight, to 209 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: seeing him writing stories for the high school newspaper and 210 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: reading them. And I thought, and so when you ask 211 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 1: earlier about what was his voice, I don't. I never 212 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 1: heard his voice, but I could see this voice being 213 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 1: made manifest and watching and grow. In Grimar school, I 214 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: had teachers who recognized my ability to write, so you know, 215 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 1: as I got older and well, I know how to write. 216 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: And so I think it's sort of my sense of 217 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: self was meeting this what I thought was an unrealized 218 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 1: self of his life, and I thought, well, maybe I 219 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: can remember thinking I'm going to fulfill his unfulfilled life 220 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: and I'm going to make myself known as the son 221 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: of Bob Hainey. So there's a large part of that 222 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: that I see. But I also wonder maybe I was 223 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: supposed to do something else. Well, I was shaped by 224 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: our experiences. I mean, that's and we're shaped by our losses. 225 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: And you know, I often say, you know, you change 226 00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: one thing, then everything changes. It's so unusual that he 227 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: kept these scrap books for a man, first of all, 228 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: and he strikes me as something much more common that 229 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: girls would do. Then boys are also the parents would 230 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: do for their children, as opposed to actually documenting his life, 231 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: you know, piecing that together. I mean, it's it's sentimental 232 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 1: to say as if he almost knew that, you know, 233 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: that he was leaving something behind so that you could 234 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: understand or track him through his own life up until 235 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: that point. What did it look like? What did the 236 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 1: what did the scrap books look like? They're you know, 237 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 1: Depression era and sort of big portfolios with string holding 238 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: them together. And the pages are that thick rough almost 239 00:15:46,880 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: like now it's all faded rough paper and hoot of 240 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: glue down. And you know, you can see them being 241 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: bought at the five and dime store and um out 242 00:15:57,040 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: in Nebraska where he grew up. And and you know, 243 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: I wonder what he was thinking, this, this desire to 244 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: document his life, you know, to preserve his life. One 245 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 1: thing that's really interesting is there are some letters that 246 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: he wrote two girl friends or a girl, a girl 247 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: or two that he had a crush on in high school. 248 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: And I don't know why I have had them, but 249 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 1: I remember reading them, and I remember they were filled 250 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 1: with such yearning and also such vulnerability and even self doubt. 251 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: And I'm just thinking that when you're ask again about voice, 252 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: I remember his voice. No, but I remember that voice, 253 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:45,800 Speaker 1: and that voice voice, remember imitating it. I'm imitating it 254 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: with when I started to be fifteen sixteen, and he 255 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: was very vulnerable and kind and very like me. He 256 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: was over sensitive. And you know this one someone told 257 00:16:57,040 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 1: me when I was reporting the story, is he was 258 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: so hard on himself and but wait a minute, that's me, 259 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: you know, And again is it did I have that 260 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: in me? Or did I see his voice and start 261 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: to then invalidate it. I don't know, but he was. 262 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:20,679 Speaker 1: He was a very vulnerable boy, teenager and yet very smart. 263 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,359 Speaker 1: But I think, very hard on himself. Interesting because you 264 00:17:24,359 --> 00:17:27,160 Speaker 1: you spent your life, most of your life not knowing him, 265 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,639 Speaker 1: and yet what you're describing as something that many people 266 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 1: never know about their parents. So how old were you 267 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: when you've found the obituaries of your father. I was 268 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: seventeen eighteen in high school and I had to write 269 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 1: a term paper and I was doing research on microfilm, 270 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: and I just had the thought that, you know, he 271 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:58,199 Speaker 1: was a journalist and he was prominent. I wonder what 272 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: the newspapers wrote about him, what the open where he said. 273 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,880 Speaker 1: There were four newspapers that wrote up the obituary about him. 274 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: Two had just a story that he, you know, had 275 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: died and there was but then two of them had 276 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: this detail in them and said he had died after 277 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: visiting friends on the thirty block of North Pine Grove 278 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 1: in Chicago. And I can remember sitting there reading, well, 279 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: that's weird. Number one, come if I he has friends 280 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: up there there and he was visiting them. That none 281 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: of these friends ever said to me, G Mike, I 282 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 1: saw your dad just before he died. I want you 283 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: to know he said this about you, or like there 284 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: was never any friends who raised their hand for that night. 285 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: Number Two, that we knew, no one as far as 286 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,400 Speaker 1: I knew, who lived in that area of Chicago. Number three, 287 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: that area Chicago is nowhere even remotely island the way home, 288 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 1: that he wouldn't have him taken. But this sugar went 289 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: down my spine that I had found something forbidden that 290 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: I probably should not be reading. And though I wanted 291 00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: to ask my mother and show her what I just found, 292 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:11,160 Speaker 1: I made copies of the micro film and I took 293 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: him home and I just hid them in a box 294 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: under my bed. And that was when I was seventeen 295 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: eighteen and kind of moved on. But still there was 296 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 1: that knock on the door all the time when you're 297 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 1: sitting there thinking, and that knoxing you really should be 298 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:32,239 Speaker 1: looking at me, Yeah, I mean it's for forbidden, and 299 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: also confirming of something, yeah, and confirming ten twelve years 300 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:42,679 Speaker 1: of suspicion. So then you go off to college and 301 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: you start living your life, and at what point does 302 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: that knocking get louder? The knocking gets louder. Just about 303 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: the time I was thirty three thirty four, starting to 304 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: crest towards the age my father was when he died, 305 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 1: and I had again. It might not sound believable to 306 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: some people, but if you've had trauma, you would understand. 307 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: From the time I was seven eight nine, I really 308 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: was confirmed in my belief that I would not outlive him, 309 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,360 Speaker 1: and that it was even a reason why I did 310 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: not I want to get married, and if I did 311 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: get married, I was not going to have children because 312 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: I did not want to die on them, and what 313 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: was the point. So really, as I m started to 314 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:35,040 Speaker 1: cress towards the age he died, which was thirty five, 315 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 1: I sort of really went into a an emotional crisis. 316 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: And I was seeing a doctor, you know, intensive kind 317 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 1: of analysis. And when I sort of started seeing I 318 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: mean she said, well, you're basically having a functioning breakdown. 319 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 1: I was able to go on with things Monday through Friday, 320 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: but you know, and at nights and then at home. 321 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: I sort of really that that year, So leading up 322 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: to it was really very difficult, and I think what 323 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: made me think is I just have to find this answer, 324 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 1: and that's what really traveled me toward it. It should 325 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: be said too, that you were a very successful working 326 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: writer and journalist during this time that you were functioning 327 00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,160 Speaker 1: in that, you know, nine to five during the week way, 328 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: which I think that really bears saying and also talking 329 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: about a little bit, because I think it's true of 330 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 1: so many people, um that there is a way in 331 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: which you can kind of have a place in the 332 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,479 Speaker 1: world in which, you know, for many people into their 333 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: work lives where outwardly everything seems perfectly fine. I would 334 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: imagine that your colleagues and the people that you were 335 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 1: working with had no idea that you were having this 336 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: kind of functioning breakdown. Yeah, and I think you know, 337 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: from what we know about trauma, I mean that people 338 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: survived trauma and you have no idea whether it's something 339 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: some PTSD in combat or you know, we've read about 340 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: people who survived Nazi camps, or you know, people who 341 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: survived horrible sexual trauma. You know, you you you learn 342 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: to compartmentalize, right, You learned to get on with your 343 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: life and you you want you that is all part 344 00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: of the moving forward or not letting this thing define 345 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 1: you or destroy you. However, it's going to always keep 346 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: knocking on that door unless one sits down with it 347 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: and really answers to it and ask it asked for answers. 348 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 1: So I think it did. As I've said. It's I've 349 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 1: been not confronting those suspicions and going in search of 350 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: the answers that I needed to at least make a 351 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: run for if I was going to be complete. I 352 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 1: was incomplete. So Michael commences the search he's been putting 353 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: off in some ways all his life. He begins with 354 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: his mother. He tells her he wants to write about 355 00:23:05,560 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: his dad and get in touch with the old circle 356 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 1: of newspaper guys who would have known him and worked 357 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: with him. It wasn't only about getting to the bottom 358 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 1: of what had happened on that April night in nineteen seventy. 359 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: He wanted to know the man he had lost. He 360 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:24,480 Speaker 1: wanted to learn more about Bob Hainey's boyhood and how 361 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 1: he left the small dustbowl town in Nebraska where he 362 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: had been raised and found the means and ambition to 363 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: get himself to Chicago. Fundamentally, Michael was asking the questions 364 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: that lead to the answer of how he came to be. 365 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 1: Imagine a world of older, perhaps now retired, newspaper men. 366 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: A tough breed, these men, and they were mostly men 367 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: who reported on the streets of Chicago then drank away 368 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: their cares at the local watering hole. There's a tight 369 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,359 Speaker 1: bond among journalists who work shoulder to shoulder at the 370 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: same paper. They stick together, look out for one another 371 00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 1: her So when Michael begins to report the story, he's 372 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: met with a range of reactions. Mostly he's being stonewalled. 373 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: Some of these guys are willing to meet up with him, 374 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: talk with him, but when it comes to the night 375 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: of his father's death, he gets nothing. And remember Michael 376 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: is a seasoned reporter himself, one of the best. He 377 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: has all these skills, this background as a journalist, but 378 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: he's not getting answers. This goes on for a good 379 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 1: solid year, but eventually he gets a couple of breaks 380 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: he never could have imagined. In the essential basic reporting 381 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: of what I was doing, I was led to two 382 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: women who changed my life and change the trajectory of 383 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 1: my life and made my story possible. One was a 384 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: woman named jan who worked at the Morgue in Chicago, 385 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,240 Speaker 1: and another was Lynn, who worked at the hospital my 386 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: father was body was taken after he died, and they 387 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: were both working at two of the grimmest places you 388 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: might imagine. Jan in the Morgue. Literally, like when I 389 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: first met her, I always say, like, there she was 390 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:20,120 Speaker 1: in this sort of behind this plexiglass window where she's 391 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: got her whole job is to encounter people who were 392 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: coming to claim bodies of loved ones. That was her 393 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,199 Speaker 1: eight hour day job. And I walked up to her 394 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: and talked through a little hole and looked down, and 395 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 1: she's got two bibles open, side by side, And I said, 396 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:40,679 Speaker 1: the journalist to me, I said, that's interesting. Why do 397 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 1: you have two bibles? And she said, Old Testament, New Testament. 398 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: You've got to know what was fore told and what 399 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: was delivered. And she was, as I said, worked in 400 00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: one of the grimmest places in the world, but filled 401 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 1: me with such life and optimism and made a profound 402 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: difference in my life. And she's the one who then suggested, 403 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:05,959 Speaker 1: so do you need to go to the hospital. You 404 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,399 Speaker 1: need to find the records. But I went to the 405 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: hospital where he was taken, and I went down to 406 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 1: the records room, which is as I say, paper is 407 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: like water. It seeks its own level, which is usually 408 00:26:17,119 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: in a basement. And I found this woman Lynn, and 409 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: I just told her what I needed. She looked, shouldn't 410 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,480 Speaker 1: have it. And about a year and a half went 411 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: by where I had I didn't have any answers, and 412 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: I just sort of put aside the search. I got 413 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: a call one day from Lynn and she said, is 414 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: this Michael. I said yeah, She said, this is Lynn. 415 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:38,919 Speaker 1: Do you remember me. I said yes, I do, and 416 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 1: she said, you know, I just couldn't stop thinking about you. 417 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: And I thought, it's a terrible thing that you don't 418 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 1: have answers. And she said, you know, I always felt 419 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: bad I couldn't find those records because I knew they 420 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: had to be here. And she said, so today I 421 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 1: went to the cabinet. I pulled out the filing cabinet, 422 00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 1: pulled every drawer out, and there was your father's record 423 00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:03,480 Speaker 1: that had fallen on the bottom, and they have it. 424 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 1: I can't make that up. These two women, Jan and 425 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: Lynn appear almost as angels in Michael's search. What's remarkable 426 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,840 Speaker 1: is that each of them, instead of just doing their jobs, 427 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: and saying nope, sorry, no information available here. Each of 428 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,320 Speaker 1: them keeps thinking about his story. Years go by from 429 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: the time Michael first meets them in the morgue, in 430 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: the hospital, places where people are often inured to the 431 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: suffering of others simply by overexposure, but each of them 432 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:43,160 Speaker 1: keeps thinking, or in Jan's case, praying. She called me, 433 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: how is at work? As in my office? And this 434 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: is you know, four or five years into this search 435 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,919 Speaker 1: and I was working on the story, had discovered certain 436 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 1: truth that I was afraid to then bring to my mother. 437 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: And I got a phone called day and I hadn't 438 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,959 Speaker 1: talked to Jan probably in three or four years, and 439 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: she and she said, I was hearing you in my 440 00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: prayers and you need help. And again people think I'm 441 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,040 Speaker 1: making this up, but I'm not. And this is what 442 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: life will bring to you if you put yourself in 443 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: on a path sometimes and she said, you have a choice, 444 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: She said, I can you have seen you. You've just 445 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: kind of popped open the lid. You're coming out of 446 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,000 Speaker 1: the box, I mean, and to me, it's it's it 447 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: was almost like I was coming out of a coffin. 448 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: And she said, now, what's your choice? You're gonna throw 449 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:37,919 Speaker 1: that lid off, or you're gonna let a close on you. 450 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,640 Speaker 1: How she divined that and knew that at the time, 451 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: but it was this exhortation, this, and I can't account 452 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: for it, but there it is. Right. So when Lynn 453 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: found the hospital records, there was a name associated with 454 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: your father's hospital records, which was a name that you 455 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: didn't know. It was no friend I've ever heard of, 456 00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: so the name of a woman and gave her address. 457 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: I quickly looked her up on Google, and I had 458 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: discovered that she had died about a year before. So 459 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: I was personally for my own search crest fall and 460 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: I was, but also just wondering what was this woman's life. 461 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: I found some obituary. She had been working at a 462 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: paper with my father and then left shortly there after 463 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: and moved to San Francisco. She was young at the time. 464 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: My father was thirty four or five. She was in 465 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:43,440 Speaker 1: her late twenties. And then I found another person another, 466 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: a person that my mother didn't know. It had been 467 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 1: a colleague of my father's, guy named Tom Moffatt. I 468 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: called him up one night and he said, oh, let 469 00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: me call you tomorrow. Called them back and the reason 470 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,040 Speaker 1: he put me off, as he told me later, he 471 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 1: just had a couple of beers and he was afraid 472 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: he was going to spill something. But I guess the 473 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: night gave him a time, a chance to reflect. And 474 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,280 Speaker 1: what he said to me, he said, I'm going to 475 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: tell you something, and I'm gonna tell you this because 476 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 1: when I was a kid growing up, he said, my 477 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: mother went away. And he said I was about fourteen, 478 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: and he said, when she went away, you know in 479 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: quotation marks, he said, I always thought she didn't love me. 480 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: And when I found out later was she had suffered 481 00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: a nervous breakdown, going to various facilities. And he said, 482 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: with my father, and tell me the truth. And he said, 483 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:45,240 Speaker 1: lo and bold. Decades later, I had my own bouts 484 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 1: with you know, and who knows again, like again, now 485 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: these echoes happened in our lives. Was it because it 486 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: was in him or was it just echoing off of her? 487 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: And he said, so, I think he deserved to know 488 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: the truth. And he said, I was the guy who 489 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: is your dad's alibi, And he told me the truth 490 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: of what happened that night. My father was seeing this woman, 491 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: her name is Bobby, was Bobby, and he died in 492 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:25,120 Speaker 1: bed at her apartment, and she was young. She was 493 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:30,760 Speaker 1: clearly that's a horrible situation to be in. She called 494 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: my uncle, who was a newspaper editor and at another 495 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: paper in town. He was a very executive veditor of 496 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: the Chicago Today slash Chicago American. So she called him 497 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,840 Speaker 1: just as she was also calling the police, and he 498 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 1: showed up with the police. From what I understand, he 499 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: basically got the cops to agree. Listen, this guy had 500 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: two young boys at home, a young wife, can't wait. 501 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: Degree that he died on the street, and that can 502 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: be our story, which my uncle was very close to 503 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: pulling that off. He comes over, he knocks on the door, 504 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,959 Speaker 1: He gets to the newspapers not to print that story. 505 00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: But two of the newspapers whoever was writing that obituary 506 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 1: didn't get the phone call to take that out, so 507 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: that's how it slipped in. Otherwise he would have had 508 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: the perfect cover up, and you know, he would have 509 00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: protected quote unquote all of us. But you've got a 510 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,719 Speaker 1: six year old boy saying that doesn't add up, and 511 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 1: then when you're thirty five thirty six years going in 512 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: search of that, there's a moment in your conversation with 513 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: Tom Moffitt where you're you're saying to him, you know, 514 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: sort of incredulously, like that was altering the scene of 515 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: a crime, I mean, and he says to you, it 516 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: wasn't a crime, it was a tragedy. I found this 517 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: one of the most powerful parts of your book. The 518 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: idea that you know when things happen is at least 519 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 1: as important as what happens or changes alters what happens. Right, So, Um, 520 00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 1: you know the idea that just a minute in either 521 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 1: direction and it would have been the simple tragedy. If 522 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: he had been having a drink in the bar before 523 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: he went over to Bobby's, and he had had his 524 00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: massive coronary, then then it would have been that would 525 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: have been the story, and you would never have known 526 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,960 Speaker 1: about Bobby. Um. He could have spent the evening with 527 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: Bobby as he had done many times before, and then 528 00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: left and started to go home, and then once again 529 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: it would have been the quote unquote simple tragedy. And 530 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 1: yet all that still would have been the case. Your father, 531 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:49,120 Speaker 1: your young father was having a long affair with with 532 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 1: a young woman that he worked with, and that would 533 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: still have been the case um, and so that would 534 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: also have been somehow woven into the sort of d 535 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 1: in a of you know, the fabric of of his absence, 536 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 1: that it would have been even more elusive. Yeah, those 537 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,439 Speaker 1: vibrations I call them those ripples across the years. That's 538 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 1: why these stories resonated, because there whether the cheers or 539 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: mine or other people that have written stories or just 540 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 1: live these stories, it's something in your soul picks up 541 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 1: those vibrations and says, MS isn't And if you're tuned 542 00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: to it, there it is. But yeah, well amenute. Either way, 543 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: it's a different life, right, it's a different story. So 544 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: now Michael knows he has the answer to the question 545 00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 1: that's been haunting him. So now there's knowledge. But with 546 00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: this knowledge comes a whole new layer of complexity. So 547 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: often when we finally discover a secret, we then feel 548 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: the burden of that secret. In effect, we become the 549 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: secret keepers, because now what does Michael do about his mom? 550 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: It was a great relief obviously that I had hunch 551 00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: or that feeling was confirmed and that I wasn't wrong 552 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: for feeling all those thoughts and suspicions, But it was 553 00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: a horrible burden immediately. And as I said earlier, if 554 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:27,280 Speaker 1: I looked at my childhood, one thing I always lived 555 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:32,280 Speaker 1: in fear of was being either cast out or made 556 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: an orphan. And by that I mean losing my mother's love, 557 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,480 Speaker 1: either through something I did to anger her, which I 558 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: know as her childlike you're going to be cast out, 559 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,800 Speaker 1: You're gonna lose that love, or you know, I would 560 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: lose her. And so when I come into ownership of 561 00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: this secret my father is a secret I've basically froze. 562 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: And for a good year I just thought, I can't 563 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: write this story. I can't share it. I don't know 564 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,560 Speaker 1: what I'm gonna do now. Because I couldn't bring it 565 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:13,400 Speaker 1: to her. I knew if I, you know, to complete 566 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: the story, I need to tell her what I have 567 00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: found at least have her permission to share our family story. 568 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 1: And it's the story that involves her is our tragedy. 569 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,279 Speaker 1: And this was where you received the call from jam 570 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,320 Speaker 1: saying I've been I've been praying, even in my prayers, 571 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 1: and are you going to just close this. I can 572 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: see your I can feel your distress. I can feel 573 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: that something stopped you wort on this book almost ten years. 574 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: And when I started it. I was a single man. 575 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: By the time this period had come, I was with 576 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,879 Speaker 1: my now wife Brook and I'd have would have long 577 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:50,880 Speaker 1: discussions with her and she would say, you have to 578 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,680 Speaker 1: tell her. I said, what I'm going to destroy her life? 579 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: And she said, all women know, they know. I said, 580 00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,920 Speaker 1: what happens if you know? I just said, it's not 581 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:06,359 Speaker 1: just trusted. When I was on this search, I came 582 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:10,360 Speaker 1: to everyone and every encounter with not with anger, but 583 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: with love and being like whatever this person says that 584 00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 1: I'm gonna learn something, and my anger about what happened 585 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 1: is that's past. But if I can navigate my love 586 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:25,800 Speaker 1: and navigate with you know, the search for the truth 587 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: and not hurting some people, that's what I always tried 588 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:32,560 Speaker 1: to do, and especially then bringing it to my mother, 589 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 1: that's what I had to do. So tell me about 590 00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 1: going to pizza with your mother, went home and it's 591 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: just Chicago and one to her favorite Italian place, and 592 00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: you know, that's when I said, I have to tell 593 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:52,240 Speaker 1: you what I found. And and it was a very stoic. 594 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: So I keep saying silent, stoic and unemotional. And you 595 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 1: can't underestimate her strength. As I've said, before actually is 596 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,640 Speaker 1: thirty three, h no husband, two young children, no money, 597 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:08,359 Speaker 1: and she did it. So I told her, and she 598 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,160 Speaker 1: really didn't flinch. You know, you're not a flinching person. 599 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,120 Speaker 1: I was so concerned that she was going to think 600 00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:19,439 Speaker 1: I was tearing him down. Instead, she listened and did 601 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:24,640 Speaker 1: not argue with me. You write something really beautiful at 602 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,919 Speaker 1: the very end of your book, which is your mother 603 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: is recounting something that a friend of hers said about 604 00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:35,080 Speaker 1: your father. She said she felt Dad always was of 605 00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 1: two worlds. He was smart and funny and sensitive and kind, 606 00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: but there was a dark, melancholic side. She said, I 607 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 1: don't think living in this world was easy for your father. 608 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: My mother says, well, this world is all we have. 609 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:52,320 Speaker 1: She goes silence, and in that moment I see her anew. 610 00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:55,520 Speaker 1: I realized, here I am a son who went looking 611 00:38:55,520 --> 00:39:01,800 Speaker 1: for his father and found his mother. After I finished 612 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: writing a draft of the book and sold it, you know, 613 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,680 Speaker 1: I went home and gave my mother a draft of 614 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: the book because I wanted her to read it before 615 00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: I published it, and flew home on a Saturday, put 616 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:20,319 Speaker 1: the manuscript on the kitchen table. My mother, being my mother, 617 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 1: said well, I'm not going to read it while you're here, 618 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:24,399 Speaker 1: and I said, well, I don't want you to read 619 00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,760 Speaker 1: it while I'm here. So we spent the day together. 620 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 1: Flew back home to New York. Two days later, as 621 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,839 Speaker 1: at work, the phone rang, Ah, it is my mother, 622 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 1: and she said, I just finished reading the book and 623 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:43,839 Speaker 1: then she started to cry. My heart sank. I was convinced, 624 00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: this is the moment I'm cast out, this is the 625 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: moment I've actually broken it. And I said, why are 626 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: you crying? And she said, because it's the most beautiful 627 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: gift you could have ever given me. I said, what 628 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 1: do you mean? She said, you know, for forty years, 629 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:09,200 Speaker 1: I've pushed these questions down, so far down that I 630 00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 1: had forgotten about them. But they were always there, and 631 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:15,800 Speaker 1: now I see that you've These are the answers I 632 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: needed and I should have looked for. And I'm sorry 633 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 1: that that I wasn't there. Some weeks after this, and 634 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,919 Speaker 1: this is after the manuscript, she would call me every 635 00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,920 Speaker 1: so often with something she had just remembered or the 636 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: question she had. For instance, she called me one day 637 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,239 Speaker 1: and she said, you know, I was doing the wash 638 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,200 Speaker 1: this morning, and I know you're gonna think this is strange. 639 00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: But I just had this flash of something I remembered. 640 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,560 Speaker 1: I said, what's that actually? Like, I remember one morning 641 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,840 Speaker 1: doing the wash and putting Dad's shirt into the machine 642 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:51,839 Speaker 1: and I saw lipstick on his collar and I said, well, 643 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: what did you do? And she said, I pushed it under, 644 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,319 Speaker 1: just put it in there, close the lid. I said, 645 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:04,760 Speaker 1: you did, She said, Michael, you were four or five 646 00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:09,080 Speaker 1: Christmas six or eight. I said, like, if I had 647 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,280 Speaker 1: contemplated that, my world would have fallen apart. I couldn't 648 00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: do it. I just had to go on, and I 649 00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 1: made that decision. A few weeks later, she called me 650 00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 1: up and she said, can I ask you a question? 651 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:26,920 Speaker 1: I said what she said? Do you think if I 652 00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 1: had been a better wife, he would still be here? 653 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:37,840 Speaker 1: This wouldn't have happened. And again my heart just sank 654 00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:43,120 Speaker 1: because I can only imagine the sadness of that and 655 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:47,759 Speaker 1: where that's coming from. But I also saw who I 656 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:50,800 Speaker 1: was as a son decades later on the other side, 657 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,640 Speaker 1: and I could do something that I could do now, 658 00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:55,879 Speaker 1: which was to put my arms around her. And I said, 659 00:41:56,880 --> 00:41:59,719 Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that, because I can tell you no, 660 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,839 Speaker 1: I said, Mom, that's like saying if I had been 661 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 1: a better son, maybe he wouldn't have done that. They said, 662 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:11,839 Speaker 1: you know what, he made his choices, and they make 663 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,480 Speaker 1: me sad. We'll never know why he made those choices, 664 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,600 Speaker 1: but it's not a comment on who you are, and 665 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: I wasn't what we are still as a family and 666 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:25,960 Speaker 1: that we remain as a family, and I think the 667 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,480 Speaker 1: journey brought us closer together the way we hadn't been. 668 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,200 Speaker 1: Many thanks to Michael Haney for trusting me with his story. 669 00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 1: You can find out more about his book after visiting 670 00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:51,560 Speaker 1: Friends a Son's Story by following him on Twitter at 671 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:56,359 Speaker 1: Michael Haney. That's at Michael Haney. Family Secrets is an 672 00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,000 Speaker 1: I Heart Media production. Dylan Fagin is a supervising producer. 673 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,400 Speaker 1: Sir and Julie Douglas and beth Ann Macaluso are the 674 00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:07,040 Speaker 1: executive producers. If you have a family secret you'd like 675 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,399 Speaker 1: to share, you can get in touch with us at 676 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 1: listener mail at Family Secrets Podcast dot com. You can 677 00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,759 Speaker 1: also find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder and Facebook 678 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:20,919 Speaker 1: at Family Secrets Pod and Twitter at Family Secrets Pod. 679 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,359 Speaker 1: For more about my book Inheritance, visit Danny Shapiro dot 680 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:39,319 Speaker 1: com for more podcasts. For my heart radio, visit the 681 00:43:39,320 --> 00:43:42,399 Speaker 1: I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen 682 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:43,440 Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.