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Speaker 1: It's very difficult to keep the line between the.

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Speaker 2: Past and the past.

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Speaker 3: Who believe that someone out of the past can enter

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Speaker 3: to take possession of a living.

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Speaker 4: We may be through with the past, but the past

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Speaker 4: is not through with us.

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Speaker 5: Welcome back to the next picture show a movie that

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Speaker 5: we've podcast to, a classic film and the way it

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Speaker 5: shaped our thoughts on a recent release. I'm Keith Whipps

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Speaker 5: here again.

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Speaker 2: With Scott Tobias, Genevieve Koski and Tasha Robinson.

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Speaker 5: In our last episode, we talked about Orson Wells's nineteen

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Speaker 5: seventy three film f for Fake, a not quite documentary

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Speaker 5: about forgers, authenticity, and the meaning of art. This week,

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Speaker 5: we're bringing in Dick Johnson Is Dead, in which Kirsten

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Speaker 5: Johnson documents the decline of her father with occasional breaks

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Speaker 5: to stage as death and depict his afterlife in heaven.

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Speaker 5: Dick Johnson Is Dead is Kirsten Johnson's second film is

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Speaker 5: the director, but, like its predecessor, the work of someone

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Speaker 5: with a long history making movies. Her first territorial effort,

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Speaker 5: Camera Person, wove together scratch footage from her years as

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Speaker 5: a documentary cinematographer into a kind of memoir made up

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Speaker 5: of outtakes from throughout her career with Dick Johnson is Dad.

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Speaker 5: She pushes the autobiographical instinct even further when her father,

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Speaker 5: psychiatrist Richard Johnson, is diagnosed with dementia. She decides to

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Speaker 5: turn his decline into a project by staging as death

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Speaker 5: for the camera with his enthusiastic participation. What follows is

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Speaker 5: a rumination on memory, movie, illusions, death, and what remains

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Speaker 5: after work on. We'll talk it over after the break.

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Speaker 6: Just the idea that I might ever lose this man

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Speaker 6: is too much to bear.

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Speaker 2: He's my dad. Let's start walking, to start walking to me,

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Speaker 2: because that's fantastic. I suggested we make a movie about

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Speaker 2: him dying.

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Speaker 6: He said, yes, she kills me multiple times, arected Dad. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: but now it's upon us the beginning of his disappearance.

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Speaker 5: The thing I hate most about my memory loss is

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Speaker 5: that it hurts people's feelings.

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Speaker 2: Peina that you woke up in the middle of the

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Speaker 2: night last night, you have fully dressed.

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Speaker 3: Do you remember any of that?

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Speaker 5: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: What can we do about that?

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: Everybody has to sort of prepare because everybody dies. I

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Speaker 5: love life too much for that. So Dick Johnson's Dead Everybody.

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Speaker 5: I like this movie a lot, a lot, a lot.

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Speaker 5: What about about everybody else?

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Speaker 4: I mean, i'd seen this film at True False. It

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Speaker 4: was one of the last things I saw in one

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Speaker 4: of the last conversations I had with her before everything

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Speaker 4: shut down, And when I saw it, I was thinking,

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Speaker 4: there's just no possible way I'm going to see a

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Speaker 4: film that I like more this year, and so far

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Speaker 4: that's hell.

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Speaker 3: Though.

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Speaker 4: I guess a lot of movie have not come out

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Speaker 4: to challenge it, but I'm obviously a pretty huge fan

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Speaker 4: of it. I think it's kind of a magical experience

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Speaker 4: and that it is a film that I think might

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Speaker 4: fill us with dread to watch. You know, this idea

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Speaker 4: of Kristen Johnston filming her father's decline, but she's turned

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Speaker 4: it in such a way, She's spun it into such

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Speaker 4: a way to where it's frequently joyous and fun and palatable,

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Speaker 4: you know, and thoughtful and you know, and also, on

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Speaker 4: top of everything else, a marvelous deconstruction of nonfiction filmmaking.

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Speaker 4: So I think it's a rich film and emotional and

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Speaker 4: it's like at the time I thought it was like,

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Speaker 4: this is like an Albus Kuriostami film that like my

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Speaker 4: parents could see and be fine. So I'm a big fan.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, if we had already done close up, it would

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Speaker 5: make a good pairing with close up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no no arguments here. I'm a big fan of this.

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Speaker 2: Maybe I was a big fan of Camera Person, and

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Speaker 2: I like how this feels like Camera Person, like a

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Speaker 2: very personal film but in a totally different way and

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Speaker 2: using just totally different methods, but that are still very

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Speaker 2: much about the tools of filmmaking. But there is also

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Speaker 2: the factor of Richard Johnson himself, who is just such

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Speaker 2: a This movie wouldn't have worked if he was a

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Speaker 2: different sort of man than he is. Like it comes

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Speaker 2: through in every frame, even though he is, you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of deteriorating over the course of the movie as

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Speaker 2: far as his dementia goes, but he never really loses

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Speaker 2: at least that we see that sort of essential I

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Speaker 2: don't know, spark, whatever you want to call it, that

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Speaker 2: I think compelled her to use him in this way

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Speaker 2: in this film, and that compelled him to say yes

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Speaker 2: to participating in this film. Like it's very a very

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Speaker 2: extraordinary thing that she asked of her father and that

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Speaker 2: he did so willingly and seemingly happily. You know, normally

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Speaker 2: that's the kind of thing that you would put into

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Speaker 2: the realm of extra textual. But that's like not a

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Speaker 2: line that matters with this movie, I don't think. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot to talk about with this movie. I

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Speaker 2: want to hear what others think about it. But you will,

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Speaker 2: you will hear no disagreement from this quarter about you know,

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Speaker 2: it being a great film.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know how rationally you're critically I can

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Speaker 1: discuss this film. It hit me way too hard. I

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Speaker 1: don't know that I recommend it for people with parents,

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Speaker 1: or people who love their parents, or people who are

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Speaker 1: watching their parents' age like this is. This is a

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Speaker 1: great film for six year olds with young, healthy, vibrant parents,

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Speaker 1: and anybody after that, I'm not sure about. It's a lot.

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Speaker 1: It's you're watching somebody slowly die on camera, and you're

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Speaker 1: watching his daughter cry about it and talk to him

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Speaker 1: about it and process it in real time. You're watching

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Speaker 1: the process of her challenging both of their limits and

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Speaker 1: both of their experiences, in both of their understanding. And

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Speaker 1: it's pretty daring. But why is it? I want to

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Speaker 1: say raw and then at the same time, you have

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Speaker 1: these just like Lambit fantasy sequences that are exactly the

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Speaker 1: opposite of that, that are these just strange, like Korda

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Speaker 1: level fantasies. And it's very hard for me to kind

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Speaker 1: of like put it all together or really address it

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Speaker 1: in any sort of thinking way. I dreaded going into

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Speaker 1: this movie a little bit, and I came out kind

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Speaker 1: of thinking, what am I doing if I recommend this

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Speaker 1: to people. I had to talk to another film critic

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Speaker 1: about it today, someone who did lose a father relatively recently,

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Speaker 1: and is this clearly still very emotional about it? And

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Speaker 1: you know, we had to talk about it in terms

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Speaker 1: of you kind of need to be prepared going in,

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Speaker 1: and you kind of need to be in the mind

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Speaker 1: space for it. You kind of need to give yourself

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Speaker 1: some breath afterwards before you sit down to talk about

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Speaker 1: it critically. Yeah, it's it's definitely not like a light

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Speaker 1: you know, Sunday afternoon, what are we going to watch

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Speaker 1: with the kids kind of movie. It's it's it's painful

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Speaker 1: and frank And did I already say daring? I think

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Speaker 1: it's pretty daring.

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Speaker 5: As I usually do when I hear something that's defess

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Speaker 5: what everyone loves. I don't read that much about it,

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Speaker 5: and I just kind of vaguely knew what it was

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Speaker 5: about and avoided spoilers. And then when I went up

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Speaker 5: to watch it on Netflix, you know, they do the

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Speaker 5: sort of very you know, concise Netflix description what the

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Speaker 5: movie's about, it like, you know, and they focus on

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Speaker 5: the whole faking the deaths aspect of it, or simulating

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Speaker 5: the death as that doesn't really sound like something the

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Speaker 5: personal camera person would make, and it also sounds frankly

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Speaker 5: a little tacky. And then you see it in the

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Speaker 5: film and it's it's remarkably well done, and you understand

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Speaker 5: why it's there, and I understand that it is, you know,

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Speaker 5: strange but totally understandable way, you know, allows them to

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Speaker 5: process what they're going to make in a way that

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Speaker 5: kind of makes fun of it but also deals with

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Speaker 5: at the same time, there's a lot going on in

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Speaker 5: this movie, and it's a movie I would I would happily.

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Speaker 5: I know it is an intense experience, but there's a

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Speaker 5: lightness to it as well, and as a movie I

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Speaker 5: would happily watch. Again, it's not saying I would dread

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Speaker 5: a second viewiod.

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Speaker 1: Of I do think it's tacky, though I think it's

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Speaker 1: deliberately tacky. I think it kind of revels in the tacky.

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Speaker 1: I mean there's a sequence where they fake her father's

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Speaker 1: death via a Keystone Cops level of construction worker with

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Speaker 1: a giant board with a nail sticking out of it,

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Speaker 1: gets distracted and accidentally swings it into her father's throat

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Speaker 1: as he's walking along the sidewalk in New York, and

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Speaker 1: then he sprays arterial blood everywhere. Like that's silly. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you're watching somebody like bleed out and die in public

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Speaker 1: to a tragic accident, but you're also watching something that's

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Speaker 1: a little bit grand goon yall and a little bit

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Speaker 1: as I say, Keystone Cops Like I think that there

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Speaker 1: is a tackiness to it, and the vision of heaven.

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Speaker 1: I think there's a tackiness to that as well. It's

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Speaker 1: downright gleefl It's certainly extremely intended, But that doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: it's not tacky. It just means intentionally techy.

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Speaker 5: Doesn't mean it's not moving either. I mean the dance

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Speaker 5: sequence with his late wife or you know, quote unquote

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Speaker 5: late wife is that's incredibly moving stuff.

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Speaker 1: And god, so beautifully shot at all of that stuff,

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Speaker 1: just shot in this like super slow motion, super high

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Speaker 1: deaf where you can just appreciate every line and every

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Speaker 1: aspect of the choreography and the physicality of the dancers.

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Speaker 1: That whole sequence is pretty remarkable in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 5: And the expressiveness of Dick Johnson's face too, He's just

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Speaker 5: a remarkable presence too. I think to be a good

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Speaker 5: psychiatrist you maybe have to have like just kind of

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Speaker 5: like Ooh's empathy. But I mean he just has this

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Speaker 5: very open openness about it, which I also kind of

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Speaker 5: pick up. I feel like as part of at least

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Speaker 5: the Kirsten Johnson we get to know via her films,

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Speaker 5: it's part of her personality as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was reading some interviews with her prior to

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Speaker 2: this recording, and she thinks of herself as a funny person,

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Speaker 2: you know, and this piece she says, you know, there

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Speaker 2: was one laugh and camera person. I was like, we

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Speaker 2: made an hour and a half long film and there

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Speaker 2: was one laugh. So I was really committed to their

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Speaker 2: being humor in this film, and you know, I think

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Speaker 2: it does function as a comedy, and yes, there is

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Speaker 2: certainly tragedy there. But I cried to this movie. It

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Speaker 2: made me emotional, but I ultimately came out of it

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Speaker 2: feeling like I had had, on balance, a more joyful

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Speaker 2: experience than a sorrowful one. And again, like I said,

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Speaker 2: I think Richard Johnson himself is a huge part of that.

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Speaker 2: In another interview with our friend Rachel Handler, she actually

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Speaker 2: put this is actually Rachel's words in her introduction. She says,

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Speaker 2: here are two people who love and trust each other

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Speaker 2: so deeply that they'll joyfully confront death together before it's

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Speaker 2: even arrived. And I think just the connection between them

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Speaker 2: and the simpaticoeness between them. As far as this project,

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Speaker 2: it wasn't that it made it sad, but it made

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Speaker 2: it more palatable for me, I guess, or it made

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Speaker 2: me you know, it made me sad in a happy

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Speaker 2: way that I cried in this movie the way I

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Speaker 2: love to cry at movies. You know, we talked, I've

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Speaker 2: talked about being a movie crier before, and most of

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Speaker 2: this movie I was in some stage of tiary, you know,

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Speaker 2: But it never felt like it was overwhelming me or

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Speaker 2: too much. It's bittersweet, yeah, And I also kind of

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Speaker 2: want to go back to the staging of the deaths

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Speaker 2: and then being as Tasha said, tacky or these sort

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Speaker 2: of absurdist deaths, and they are to a certain extent,

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Speaker 2: but they are also all grounded in a sort of realism,

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Speaker 2: you know. Again within that interview with Rachel, she says,

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Speaker 2: you know, we started working with Netflix. I had a

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Speaker 2: budget ahead of time for the first time in my life,

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Speaker 2: so I could think really big. I imagine he traveled a globe,

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Speaker 2: put my dad on an ice flow and float him out,

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Speaker 2: go to Hong Kong, and have him jump out of

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Speaker 2: a building and catch on fire. Then it became totally

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Speaker 2: obvious that my dad couldn't do that. He's a fragile,

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Speaker 2: eighty six year old who doesn't have toes, who's in

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Speaker 2: danger of tripping and falling, And I realized all of

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Speaker 2: that was escapist fantasy. Ground level falls, in fact, are

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Speaker 2: the most frequent way that elderly people die, and so

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Speaker 2: the deaths that happen in this movie he falls down

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Speaker 2: the stairs, you know, obviously getting walloped down the street

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Speaker 2: is a little more heightened, but it could easily happen,

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Speaker 2: and they're all very tied to the place he is

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Speaker 2: in that moment, like the board with a nail, and

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Speaker 2: it comes shortly after he's moved to New York to

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Speaker 2: live with her. And we also have that fake out

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Speaker 2: of him getting hit by a car, you know, And

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Speaker 2: these are dangers to an elderly person that are very

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Speaker 2: tied to the place he is now. Just a falling

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Speaker 2: down the stairs is very tied to the place he

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Speaker 2: was leaving, which was the house where he lived alone.

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Speaker 2: So obviously the debts themselves away. They're stage. They're done

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Speaker 2: so in a way that they don't feel quote unquote

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Speaker 2: real in a visual sense necessarily, but they think are

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Speaker 2: intended to feel real in terms of Richard of the

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Speaker 2: life that Richard Johnson is leading.

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Speaker 4: I think there's also, I mean there's that element of

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Speaker 4: fantasy at play too, and that and that those deaths

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Speaker 4: are all quick deaths. I mean, both of Christian Johnson's

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Speaker 4: parents were long goodbyes, were situations where her parents were

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Speaker 4: you know, I mean mother had Alzheimer's, their father has dementia.

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Speaker 2: Still alive, by the way, yeah, no, as of today.

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Speaker 2: An article that posted today, Dick Johnson incidentally is currently

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Speaker 2: safely stationed in a minimally occupied home for dementia and

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Speaker 2: Maryland soft.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well, and also it's just this is this is of

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Speaker 4: course of an attempt to make him live forever in movies.

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Speaker 4: So there's that touching element too. I mean, I think

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Speaker 4: the ending is just like astonishing, Like the way that

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Speaker 4: plays out, it's just so moving. And so his friend,

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Speaker 4: his friend, Oh that was something that that Yeah, I

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Speaker 4: mean before I talk about the very.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, that was rap.

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Speaker 2: Yeah I thought you met the Feld.

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Speaker 4: I'm talking about the scene in the closet and then

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Speaker 4: she were coming out and being there. But yeah, no,

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Speaker 4: of course, of course, that whole sequence. I mean, if

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Speaker 4: you're talking about just purely heartbreaking or moving moments, I

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Speaker 4: mean that is pretty overwhelming.

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Speaker 2: But then it's punctuated with that horn that horn moment,

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Speaker 2: which is probably the biggest laugh in the movie, and

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Speaker 2: it's a laugh you feel weird about, like, you know,

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Speaker 2: like all the laughs in this movie are kind of

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Speaker 2: laughs you feel weird about. I think intentionally so in

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Speaker 2: that I think is just peak weird laugh.

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Speaker 1: I think it's meaningful of it. That's the laugh where

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Speaker 1: she pans around the crowd and finds other people that

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Speaker 1: are looking dismayed or fighting back laughter. She is kind

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Speaker 1: of cueuing to you like, yes, this is ridiculous, It's

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Speaker 1: okay to laugh. But then she cuts to that man,

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Speaker 1: the Ray Dick Johnson's best friend, just sobbing his heart

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Speaker 1: out off to the side during the course of this funeral.

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Speaker 1: And there were a couple of moments in this film

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Speaker 1: where I wondered, like, is this exploitative? Is this in

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Speaker 1: the attempt to push the boundaries as she pushed the

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Speaker 1: boundaries too far? And one of those moments came when

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Speaker 1: she admits that she doesn't know where her father's boundaries

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Speaker 1: are anymore, she doesn't know when she's gone too far

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Speaker 1: when it becomes inappropriate. And she also says he'll do

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Speaker 1: anything for me. He will do anything I ask him

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Speaker 1: to do, And that just made me wonder at times

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Speaker 1: like are there points that go too far? There's the

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Speaker 1: point where he's standing there covered in blood and he says,

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Speaker 1: this is worse than my heart attack.

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Speaker 2: It was the hardest part.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's there. There are points where I question, like

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Speaker 1: is this elder abuse I and.

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Speaker 3: I think she's a good caretaker of her father.

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Speaker 1: Being a segment with Ray just in particular, I just

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Speaker 1: had me wondering like, where is somebody comforting him. You know,

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Speaker 1: where is somebody helping him through this? And it might

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Speaker 1: have happened one second after the camera cut away, but

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Speaker 1: you know, you're left with that image of a man

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Speaker 1: like disconsolately weeping over something that hasn't happened yet, and

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Speaker 1: you know that not only is he suffering now, he's

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Speaker 1: going to suffer through all of this again at some

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Speaker 1: time in the future if he outlives Dick. It's hard

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Speaker 1: to watch, but the.

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Speaker 2: Thing is, like it has happened, Like I think the

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Speaker 2: point of that funeral is that, like, and Johnson has

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Speaker 2: said this in interviews, like she's not going to have

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Speaker 2: a funeral for Dick Johnson when he passes, Like that

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Speaker 2: was his funeral because these people had already experienced like

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Speaker 2: the sort of long goodbye of her mother, his wife,

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Speaker 2: and you know, at that point his dementia, it is

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Speaker 2: already a point of fact. You know, everyone knew what

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Speaker 2: was coming, and it was a goodbye, was a goodbye

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Speaker 2: to the Richard Johnson. They knew. And I agree with

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Speaker 2: you that I think Ray is probably the point in

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Speaker 2: the film where I feel like it edges closest to exploitation.

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Speaker 2: I have to believe that she cleared that with him,

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Speaker 2: but she also has spoken to the realization of needing

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Speaker 2: to put herself in this movie, like you can't just

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Speaker 2: put this, all of this sort of emotional load onto

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Speaker 2: your father and leave yourself out of it, Like you

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Speaker 2: have to put your voice in it and speak to

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Speaker 2: your emotions in the complications your feeling. Otherwise I think

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Speaker 2: that exploitative feeling would have come through even more strongly.

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Speaker 2: I think it's tempered by Johnson kind of engaging with

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Speaker 2: it and engaging with when it's hard and when it

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Speaker 2: feels like maybe it was a bad idea and she's

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Speaker 2: not sure if what she's doing is right. But in

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Speaker 2: the end, I think that, you know, what she comes

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Speaker 2: away with is like such a beautiful portrait of her

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Speaker 2: dad at this stage of his life, you know, and

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Speaker 2: then if you extrapolate to who he was before we

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Speaker 2: are actually spending time with him. I think it's a

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Speaker 2: gift to her father. I think that just kind of

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Speaker 2: negates any discomfort around exploitation for me personally.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's a joyful collaboration for one.

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Speaker 4: And the one thing I always think about too, is

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Speaker 4: that she doesn't have footage of her mother before her

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Speaker 4: mother was lost essentially to Alzheimer's, and you know, this

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Speaker 4: is this is a chance to capture her father in

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Speaker 4: his essence, you know, I mean, I think you get

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Speaker 4: a wonderful sense of this very positive, thoughtful, caring man

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Speaker 4: and how much father and daughter you know, mean to

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Speaker 4: each other. And this is something that she can have

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Speaker 4: and treasure forever, this whole experience, and be able to

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Speaker 4: share with us. It's fantastic. It's weird, like you know,

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Speaker 4: I mean, obviously palatable, I guess is the word. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I guess it's where where Tasha kind of departs from

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Speaker 4: the rest of us a little bit. But given the

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Speaker 4: film's project, given what it's trying to do, what the

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Speaker 4: reality of the film is, I think it does so

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Speaker 4: much to to give you a sense of joy and

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Speaker 4: fun and whimsy and kind of a bittersweet quality that

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Speaker 4: keeps it from being a dirge I you know, but

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Speaker 4: again it has to do with the eerio personal response.

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Speaker 4: I'm not gonna, you know, obviously minimize Tasha's here clearly

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Speaker 4: is also a movie about somebody who is dying, is

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Speaker 4: going through a lot of really tough things, and you know,

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Speaker 4: the daughters having to experience all that too. So that's

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Speaker 4: all there, and it is hard. Certainly, this is a

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Speaker 4: film that punches you in the gut too.

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Speaker 5: All right, Well, there's plenty more to talk about it,

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Speaker 5: but we're gonna talk about it in the context of

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Speaker 5: the previous film when we compaired this with After Fake.

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Speaker 5: We'll talk that over after the break.

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Speaker 1: So this is what I'm going to stick to your neck.

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Speaker 1: This is where the blood will actually come out of.

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Speaker 6: This is going to go along here, and then all

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Speaker 6: of this is going to go back down through.

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Speaker 4: Your wardrobe down here.

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Speaker 2: And then I pumped the blood under there, which forces

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Speaker 2: it to just shoot right.

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Speaker 1: From the makeup store, from the makeup store.

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Speaker 2: Real blood.

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Speaker 6: No, no, no, no, no, no never.

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Speaker 3: I thought you just explained to me it's all.

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Speaker 1: Blood.

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Speaker 5: Blood.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought you a transformation.

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Speaker 1: No, they don't want your blood. Good.

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Speaker 3: I like my blood. That's going accustomed to it.

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Speaker 2: You can hang on to all of your blood, a

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Speaker 2: drop of your blood will feel that.

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Speaker 3: This planned very good.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So you feel comfortable with that.

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Speaker 5: I'm comfortable with that.

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Speaker 2: Thank you. Great. I would say, just keep.

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Speaker 1: Saying the words fake, big blood.

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Speaker 2: That's only let's all only use the word for Big Blood.

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Speaker 5: Yes, now it's time for connections. When you bring these

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Speaker 5: two films together and talk about all the things they

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Speaker 5: have in common, you know, where do we start here?

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Speaker 5: I guess you know they're both concerned with authenticity in

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Speaker 5: their own way. How do they differ in their approaches

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Speaker 5: to talking about what's real and what's not?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think one thing that's sort of significant

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Speaker 1: is that Kirsten gives you so much of kind of

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Speaker 1: the behind the scenes that I was asking for as

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Speaker 1: we wrapped up talking about f or fake, that sense of, well,

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Speaker 1: I want to know where all this footage comes from.

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Speaker 1: I want to know what they stitched together to create

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Speaker 1: this artistry, because he's emphasizing so much that it's all artistry,

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Speaker 1: that it's all false. And by contrast, Kirsten lets you

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Speaker 1: see the setup. She lets you see the casting for

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Speaker 1: the stunt doubles that are going to die in her

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Speaker 1: father's stead. She lets you see the makeup process and

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Speaker 1: the like assembling the props and the rehearsal, and then

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Speaker 1: she lets you see what the recreations look like. So

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Speaker 1: there's never any sense with most of the recreations, with

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Speaker 1: one notable exception that he's under any threat or that

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Speaker 1: you should be concerned about anything you see, because she

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Speaker 1: goes to the trouble of exposing the artifice at every

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Speaker 1: level and exposing to some degree kind of the challenge

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Speaker 1: and the build up. It's kind of a fun little

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Speaker 1: kind of behind the scenes of like many like behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes for YouTube video essentially like here's the stunt,

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Speaker 1: but here's everything that went into the stunt, and some

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Speaker 1: of those sequences are actually really fun. I kind of

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Speaker 1: love the casting the stunt men sequences where you've got

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Speaker 1: Dick Johnson, like walking back and forth and these young,

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Speaker 1: burly tattooed men who look nothing like him walking back

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Speaker 1: and forth kind of in his shadow, paying attention to

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Speaker 1: how he stoops, where he puts his arms, like the

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Speaker 1: length of his stride, that sort of thing. I kind

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Speaker 1: of had a moment of why would they cast these

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Speaker 1: like young muscular dudes and like one of them has

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Speaker 1: guns bigger than his head, Like they look nothing like him,

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Speaker 1: and then they costume them up and pad them out,

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden they look a lot like him.

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Speaker 1: I kind of enjoyed Dick Johnson just as a tiny

437
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 1: little micro lesson in some of the artifice of filmmaking again.

438
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,160
Speaker 2: In that to interview with Rachel, which I'm just I'm

439
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 2: going to make sure we link in our show notes

440
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 2: because it's really good. She's a really good interview subject.

441
00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 2: But think she says it's related to that. She says, I.

442
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 5: Got feels a very good interviewer too.

443
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:09,840
Speaker 2: That's true, that's true. Handler Johnson says, I got really

444
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,880
Speaker 2: interested in stunt people. They're putting their physical bodies at

445
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,879
Speaker 2: harm to be invisible in a movie, to create escapism

446
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,360
Speaker 2: for the rest of us. I love the metaphor of that.

447
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 2: I wanted to turn things inside out, including my role,

448
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 2: and to bring it back to this question of authenticity.

449
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,399
Speaker 2: I think in the case of Kirsten Johnson, her putting

450
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 2: herself into it, as I was speaking about in the

451
00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 2: first half. You know, I think that is where the

452
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 2: authenticity that's the heart of it, of her putting herself

453
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 2: into this film, because she hasn't really done that, you know,

454
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 2: camera person. I feel like she maybe her face popped

455
00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 2: in once or twice in camera person, but you know,

456
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,000
Speaker 2: her her lens is the character there, and you know

457
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:57,960
Speaker 2: she's always been a behind the camera person, so you know,

458
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 2: just taking the step of putting herself kind of at

459
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 2: the center to this film or adjacent to the center

460
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,679
Speaker 2: of this film anyway, is a daring act for a

461
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 2: documentarian of her stripe. Now, as far as Wells goes,

462
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,119
Speaker 2: he is someone who has been in front of the

463
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 2: camera for most of his career, you know, like he

464
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 2: has an on camera presence in addition to a behind

465
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: the camera presence. So you know, we talked in the

466
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,439
Speaker 2: first half about the film itself kind of in the

467
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 2: end being about Wells. You know, despite all these other

468
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 2: sort of avenues at meanders down, it is effectively a

469
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,439
Speaker 2: film about him as a filmmaker at that point in time.

470
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 2: And I don't know, I'm struggling to see where the

471
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,200
Speaker 2: authenticity comes in effort fake. I mean, the title right

472
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 2: there would seem to run contrary to it.

473
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 4: I guess I wouldn't use the word authenticity so much

474
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:58,680
Speaker 4: as candor to describe a link between Wells and Johnson here,

475
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 4: and that both of them are sharing with the audience

476
00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:04,239
Speaker 4: the fact that what they're seeing is fake. I mean

477
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 4: that they're they're they're they're they're showing you that all

478
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,280
Speaker 4: of the tools you know of the trade, and they're

479
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 4: laying bare elements of craft that most movies try to disguise.

480
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,360
Speaker 4: And that's kind of what I met on the earlier

481
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 4: show about effor fake being ahead of its time. I mean,

482
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 4: I think Dick Johnson is Dead is coming along. It

483
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:28,119
Speaker 4: kind of represents where nonfiction is right now, where it's like,

484
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 4: we can let's stop pretending, for example, that directors of

485
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 4: documentaries and their subjects are not collaborators. They're collaborators. They're

486
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 4: not you know, it's not it's there's not that remove

487
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 4: their collaborators, not unlike actors are. So there's a relationship there.

488
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 4: And you know, a camera person was about interrogating those

489
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 4: relationships too, so that's there too. And and of course

490
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 4: these are both films about filmmaking, and it lays everything bare.

491
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 4: And I mean even when we were talking earlier about

492
00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 4: some of the decisions that Johnson makes and whether we

493
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 4: are comfortable with them, it's like this the film that's

494
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 4: very open about what it's doing. And maybe some of

495
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:08,919
Speaker 4: those we might judge as ethical mistakes, you know, or

496
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 4: errors in judgment or something, but she's not trying to

497
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 4: hide any of it. You know, everything is just being

498
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 4: opened up for us to see. And by opening it up,

499
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 4: it doesn't make it more obvious or ruin the illusion.

500
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:27,000
Speaker 4: It makes things more complex, and it makes us think

501
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,640
Speaker 4: about how your movies are constructed. And so that's something

502
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 4: about these films have a lot in common in that respect.

503
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 5: Both films kind of play fast and loose with chronology

504
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 5: as well, the Wells film more obviously than Kirschen Justin

505
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 5: is Dead. But even there, you know, of course you

506
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 5: get the extraordinary final scene, which which is all about

507
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 5: playing with chronology, but even before that you kind of get,

508
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 5: you know, you leap back to Seattle. You're not really

509
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 5: sure when a few things happen, and of course I'm

510
00:26:58,280 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 5: not sure when he was in heaven when they filmed

511
00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 5: the having scenes, But that's sort of a leap out

512
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 5: of chronology entirely to to set some stuff and have it.

513
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 5: How these films deal with those approaches, I.

514
00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,520
Speaker 2: Think in Dick Johnson is Dead, it has the effect

515
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: of hopefully keeping you from fixating too much on to

516
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 2: what state he has deteriorated to. Like, you know, I

517
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 2: think with stories of dementia, there's a real sort of

518
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,920
Speaker 2: temptation to like track a deterioration as if we're making

519
00:27:28,920 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 2: our ways towards the inevitable end. And that's not really

520
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: how it works. I mean kind of in the broad sense,

521
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 2: but in sort of the day to day experience of

522
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 2: being with a person who has UH, who is dealing

523
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 2: with dementia. I've only had the barest experience of that,

524
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,439
Speaker 2: so I apologize if I'm speaking of term, but it

525
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 2: seems like it's you know, when you're in it, you're

526
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 2: not necessarily thinking about the long arc of it. And

527
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,000
Speaker 2: I think, I mean, there are some indicators in Dick

528
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 2: Johnson is dead, like of the order things happen in

529
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 2: like he obviously moves from Seattle to New York. But

530
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 2: you know, I think it keeps us from like tracking

531
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 2: the chronology of his illness and instead focusing on just

532
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,679
Speaker 2: the experience of being with him in this moment, in

533
00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 2: whatever state he is in, as as she is capturing him.

534
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 2: And I honestly didn't feel like we were jumping around

535
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 2: in time too much. The only time it really stuck

536
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 2: out to me was the sort of the coffin reveal

537
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 2: during the funeral sequence at the end, because early in

538
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 2: the film we see him being filmed in that casket,

539
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 2: and that being very upsetting to Ray and then he's

540
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 2: sort of like during the funeral sequence, the casket him

541
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 2: and the casket is like super imposed, and then we

542
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 2: kind of have that moment again speaking of sort of

543
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 2: laying bare the tools of filmmaking, where the casket sort

544
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 2: of is taken away and it's revealed that Dick is

545
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 2: there and comes down. I think that's a very very

546
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 2: lovely ending. So I think, you know, tricky chronology in

547
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: Dick Johnson is Dead is used with purpose. I think

548
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 2: in F for Fake it is used for trickery, which

549
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 2: is fine because that is kind of what the film

550
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,880
Speaker 2: is odd about in general. But it's used in the

551
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 2: service of character in Dick Johnson is Dead, and there

552
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 2: really isn't a character an F for Fake other than

553
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 2: Wells himself that I think we have any real attachment to.

554
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 2: So the jumping around in time, it just feels like

555
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 2: trickery or another example of trickery, and that's fine.

556
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: I think part of the aspect of for Fake using

557
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: it in that trickery sort of way, I think F

558
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: for Fake is ultimately much more of an act of syncretism,

559
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: and it's kind of pulling together all of these ideas.

560
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: I would say in not the most informative or communicative way.

561
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: But it's trying to draw in a whole bunch of

562
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: different things at once, and by jumping round conceptually between

563
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: them and jumping around in time and jumping around in focus,

564
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 1: it's trying to show you the similarities between all of

565
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: these things, the similarity between forging art and selling it

566
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 1: versus forging a memoir and selling it, versus forging an

567
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: identity and selling it. The connection between actual art as

568
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: an act of creativity and forging art just as much

569
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: of an act as an act of creativity. And you

570
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: know what's going to be left behind when we're gone.

571
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: It's all of these ideas kind of muddled up together.

572
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: Whereas with Dick Johnson, it feels very deliberate to specifically

573
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 1: to jump in and out of the heaven sequences. I

574
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 1: feel like that sequence might be a little too ridiculous

575
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,120
Speaker 1: and a little too much if it was all together,

576
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 1: as opposed to something that we jump back and forth

577
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: with in and out of. It's kind of like he's

578
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: going off to his heavenly reward every time he dies,

579
00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: as opposed to putting all the deaths together and put

580
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: all of the heaven stuff together. I think that the

581
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: way it's edited gives us these little heaven sequences kind

582
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: of as gifts, you know, we're more able to appreciate.

583
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: Here he is like catching popcorn and his tongue in

584
00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: slow motion, or here he is reveling in the reveal

585
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: of his heavenly body and its heeled toes. Here he

586
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 1: is like having this dance experience, or collapsing in the

587
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: clouds or whatever. These are all we're almost certainly shot

588
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: at the same time as part of all of the

589
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: same package, but they're kind of like doled out like

590
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: little treats, almost as a way of virtually and visually escaping.

591
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: Every time the film gets a little heavy, every time

592
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 1: the film gets a little sad, every time the understanding

593
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: of his deterioration hits a little more, it's like, well, okay,

594
00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: so let's go back to the imaginary space where we're

595
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: assuming that he's going to be someday and where everything

596
00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: is beautiful. It's like Effake uses the jumping around to

597
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: disorient you to get its message across, and Dick Johnson

598
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,959
Speaker 1: uses the jumping around to relax you so it can

599
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: get its message across without it being too hurtful.

600
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 2: Just to note that I think the heaven scenes to

601
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 2: kind of take it out of the chronology of the

602
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 2: film and into the chronology of the film ming. It

603
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 2: sounds like, based on that interview with Rachel, that that

604
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 2: actually came a little later in the process the idea

605
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: to do that, and she says, at some point it

606
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 2: was like, we need to stop killing him. It was

607
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 2: not fun for him. He was bloody and cold and outside,

608
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 2: and I was like, why am I doing this to him?

609
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 2: I wondered what would be pleasurable to him to go

610
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 2: to heaven? And she goes on from there to speak

611
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 2: about Freud and the Uncanny, which is also good. You

612
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 2: should read the interview. But you know, I think that

613
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 2: feeling of sort of relief or the feeling that this

614
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 2: is a little gift comes from it being a relief

615
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 2: and a gift to her father in this, you know,

616
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 2: this experience that was dificult for both of them, you know,

617
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 2: and this was maybe a release valve on this whole project,

618
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 2: and it comes through on screen.

619
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 4: And this with the heaven stuff, there's also kind of

620
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 4: a fun, interesting juxtaposition between between that fantasy and then

621
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 4: his own notions of what heaven is. I mean, he

622
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 4: talks about you know, heaven being around all of them,

623
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 4: you know. I mean, that's an utterly contented person on earth,

624
00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 4: you know, and and and you know, when they're not filming,

625
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 4: it's even more heavenly because they've brought him his favorite

626
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 4: chair and his you know, automan and he gets to

627
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 4: take a nap, you know, And there's something so pleasing

628
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 4: about watching him do that too, So that that is

629
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 4: as a kind of another layer of like of what

630
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 4: heaven actually means for someone like him. I mean, obviously

631
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 4: there's also all of the Seventh day Adventist stuff kind

632
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 4: of we you know, woven in there as well. I'm

633
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 4: not sure what to make of all of that whole

634
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,600
Speaker 4: spiritual component, but but there is a thing with I

635
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 4: just think, I mean, this is doesn't really compare to

636
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 4: eff fake. I'm kind of losing effort fake in this,

637
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 4: but I do I do think like the prevailing spirit

638
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 4: of Dick Johnson is Dead comes from Dick Johnson and

639
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 4: his view of life, which is so open and accepting

640
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 4: and positive. It kind of fun. You know that that

641
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 4: that's kind of what kept it from being a dirge

642
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 4: for me. But you know, that's Dick Johnson's that I

643
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:26,759
Speaker 4: want to I want to like get too far away

644
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 4: from effort fake, so I'll stop.

645
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: I just want to make the point that you mentioned

646
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: him taking a nap in his ottoman as opposed to

647
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,959
Speaker 1: many many other naps that he takes throughout the course

648
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: of this film. What a strange like whenever we pair

649
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: films up like this, we were always looking at either

650
00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: creator connections or big picture, big theme connections, and then

651
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: we almost always get like one of these strange, little

652
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: coincidental connections. And the moment when he is in his

653
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: ottoman sleeping and he just sort of gently so bubble

654
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,320
Speaker 1: floats up to the ceiling and disappears is just a

655
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: very surreal moment. And then for Fake ends with Orson

656
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 1: Wells like slowly levitating an old man who appears sleeping

657
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: or dead upward and then eventually whisking a cloth off

658
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: of him and he's also disappeared, And I just had

659
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,799
Speaker 1: a moment of this. Is this just complete coincidence? Is

660
00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: this based in the symbolism of kind of the body

661
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: disappearing on death, like the physical form disappearing. Is this

662
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: what we're getting at when we do this as a

663
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: magicians act, like we have multiple bodies disappearing over the

664
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: course of of f For Fake is what a strange,

665
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,040
Speaker 1: weird little rhyme between these two films.

666
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 4: What it kind of gets at another connection, which is delusion,

667
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 4: a concept that both films are hugely interested in. You know,

668
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 4: for Fake, it's it's pretty obvious. I mean, the whole

669
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 4: thing is a magic trick from the beginning, and and

670
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 4: you know all about all these different levels of fakery

671
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 4: and and truth in there as well. And then with

672
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,880
Speaker 4: Dick Johnson's Dead, there's a lot of illusions that are

673
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 4: created by fantasy.

674
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 3: And by you know, these sort of staged sequences.

675
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,280
Speaker 4: But then there's the overall illusion that it's possible for

676
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 4: someone to live forever. And in movies, that's such an

677
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 4: exciting idea that she's sort of bottled up this moment

678
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 4: out of time and then and then ends the film

679
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 4: so pointedly with the illusion that he's probably that he's

680
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 4: gone in her opening the door and he's alive.

681
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 3: And that's a trick.

682
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 4: That's a trick that she plays on us, and that's

683
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 4: a trick that movies allow her to do and allows

684
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:41,399
Speaker 4: us to be kind of delighted by this illusion, and

685
00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 4: you know, and leave the film with like a little

686
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 4: question mark, with a moment that is defiant of the

687
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 4: very title.

688
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 3: Of the movie.

689
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 2: I had the thought before we started recording that we,

690
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,760
Speaker 2: you know, we maybe should have had a connection about

691
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 2: a topic we've talked about before, movies about movie making,

692
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 2: because I think these would to some extent and both

693
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 2: fall under that category. But I think the connection of

694
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:09,239
Speaker 2: illusion kind of gets at the same idea, you know,

695
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 2: like they are both films that are that are preoccupied

696
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,759
Speaker 2: with the idea that what you present on screen becomes

697
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 2: it is both a lie and it is a truth,

698
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 2: you know, simultaneously, and at the same time, they both

699
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:32,880
Speaker 2: acknowledge and engage with filmmaking as a tool to create illusion,

700
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 2: you know, whether through editing or through stuntmen, or or

701
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:41,320
Speaker 2: through magic tricks, and you know, through through special effects.

702
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: And to some degree it feels like like we're going

703
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 1: back to that sort of sense of smugness that got

704
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:49,359
Speaker 1: off of for Fake I feel like some of these

705
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 1: illusions are like Wells smirking at the camera to the

706
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 1: effect of you didn't realize that when I stepped towards

707
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 1: this white screen, I was going to in one cut,

708
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: be in front of wight screen in a different place.

709
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: I fooled you, And it's the kind of I fooled

710
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 1: you that's meant to make you rethink your preconceptions, that's

711
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 1: meant to make you like, look at the world anew.

712
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: It's a very socratic method of debate. That's like, would

713
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,760
Speaker 1: you like to question all the ways in which you're wrong?

714
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,239
Speaker 1: While I stand here and smugly assert that I know

715
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: more than you? And then like Dick Johnson's version of

716
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: that is the like, hey, we're all hanging out together

717
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: making this movie. Like you can be in on the

718
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: whole process from start to finish. You can be in

719
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,000
Speaker 1: on the development and the ideas and kind of the

720
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 1: fun stuff of setting this up, and then the aftermath

721
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: as well. You know, you can be in on we

722
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:46,879
Speaker 1: staged this death. Here's the end of it, but then

723
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: here's after the end of it. You know, you're not

724
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:53,400
Speaker 1: left with the image of him lying broken and bleeding

725
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: at the bottom of the stairs. You get cursed in

726
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: saying can we change the pose a little?

727
00:38:59,160 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 6: Yeah?

728
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,360
Speaker 1: That's that's even at her and just like repeatedly breaking

729
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: the illusion to make sure that you're not left with

730
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 1: the illusion where the illusion is kind of sad. Dick

731
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 1: Johnson just feels like a much friendlier version of that

732
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: to me.

733
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 4: Well, one thing I think we should also talk about

734
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 4: is how these films, you know works personal films with

735
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 4: the documentarian himself or herself as being the subject because

736
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 4: you know, with I mean we talked about ef for

737
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,680
Speaker 4: Fake being just so essence of Wells, you know, I mean,

738
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:33,000
Speaker 4: just like him as the center of attention, him as

739
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 4: this artist with a very long history that he's sharing

740
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 4: and deconstructing with us. And Dick Johnson is dead, I

741
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:45,960
Speaker 4: think is such a perfect fusion of Kristin Johnston's personality,

742
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 4: because Johnson's personality, if you spent time around her, she

743
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 4: is both a fearsome intellect and also an extremely approachable,

744
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,879
Speaker 4: very warm kind of like She's got like these very

745
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,680
Speaker 4: two very strong signs to personality that I think come

746
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,399
Speaker 4: through in the movie. And it was interesting to see

747
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 4: her kind of operate at true Falls where she was

748
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 4: just completely the center of attention because she's been for

749
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,759
Speaker 4: one you know, these are this is an audience, and

750
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,359
Speaker 4: these are filmmakers who have known her for so long.

751
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 4: I mean, she's been making movies as a cinematographer like

752
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 4: for like twenty five years, so every filmmaker knows her,

753
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 4: and of course people you know, into a camera person.

754
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 4: And then this movie was sort of like the the

755
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 4: hit of the festival. But like she's also extremely tall

756
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,560
Speaker 4: and wears very her clothes are very like striking.

757
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,760
Speaker 3: You know, she's coming. She does that blend.

758
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 4: And I think that people just were like coming up

759
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 4: to her all weekend to kind of like share their

760
00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 4: experiences and you know, and she has this extremely attentive

761
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 4: gaze where she's the way she engages with people.

762
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 3: I mean, she's really she's very bunch of people person.

763
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 4: I just think, like I think that that generosity of

764
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:08,319
Speaker 4: spirit and that fierce intellect kind of come through beautifully

765
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 4: in this movie.

766
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, but could she eat a lobster? Because if not,

767
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 5: point wells.

768
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 3: She might, she might. I would put it past her.

769
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 1: I mean, her father can eat three pieces of what

770
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: looks like the richest.

771
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 4: Cake that's so sweet that grandkids are involved in making

772
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 4: him a cake or bringing him the.

773
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:30,319
Speaker 1: Cake, destroying the cake.

774
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 2: Speaking of grandkids, this isn't really a connection, but it

775
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 2: hasn't come up elsewhere. And since we're kind of talking

776
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 2: about Johnson as a person. I just want to note

777
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 2: the interesting family she has, uh and the living situation.

778
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 2: It just kind of it's let pass without comment. But

779
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 2: I did a little research afterwards because I was curious

780
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 2: about it, and she does indeed live next door to

781
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 2: the fathers of her two children, one of whom is

782
00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 2: filmmaker Iris as Who's and the other is Painter Boris Taurus.

783
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:11,399
Speaker 2: So yeah, very just modern, modern family, if you will.

784
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,000
Speaker 2: But you know, we see it, we see it at

785
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 2: work in the film a little bit, but there's never

786
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 2: any sort of comment or explanation on it. But it

787
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 2: just seems like another example of her being a sort

788
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 2: of a singular person.

789
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 3: Well.

790
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 4: Also that scene in Lisbon, I can't what's what's his

791
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:31,719
Speaker 4: most recent film with Marsa Tomei And.

792
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 5: I always see his movies, and I didn't see that.

793
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 3: What's what's Oliver Sacks?

794
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 5: Right, Iris Sacks, neurologist. Yeah, Frankie you're talking about Frankie.

795
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's so right. So the scene where

796
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 4: they're on a beach in Lisbon, and surely that was

797
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:54,400
Speaker 4: connected to the filming of Iris Saxe is Frankie.

798
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 5: Did you see that one?

799
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 3: I haven't seen anything I did.

800
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 4: I did it was not It's pleasant, but it's it's

801
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 4: not on a level with my favorites.

802
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 5: I think I think he's quiet, like when he's really good,

803
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 5: he's quietly one of the best structures in America right now.

804
00:43:07,080 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 4: No, I mean it's totally worth saying for sure. Yeah,

805
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 4: I love that. I love that relationship. I think that's

806
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 4: pretty cool and uh and yeah, clearly the Lisbon stuff

807
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 4: was related to that in some way.

808
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 1: Before we drift too far off away from these films

809
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 1: and their connections, I feel like we can't go out

810
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 1: with talking about what's maybe the most critical connection between

811
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,359
Speaker 1: the two of them, which is the fact that these

812
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: films are both kind of fundamentally about art in the

813
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 1: face of death. Eh for fake as we've all said,

814
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:37,719
Speaker 1: like the heart of it, the monologue that really kind

815
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 1: of makes it feel like an endeavor with a point,

816
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: with a focus, with a message comes in that monologue

817
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 1: about how everything that we sing will go down into

818
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 1: the dark with us, but we still keep singing anyway,

819
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: and we should keep singing anyway. The monologue kind of

820
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: expressly says that sometimes when we create art, it outlives

821
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: our name. It outlives, our reputation, were not known for it.

822
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,919
Speaker 1: It's just known for itself, and that that's fine. Maybe

823
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: maybe names aren't so important. And the contrast between that

824
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: and a piece of art that is so specifically personal

825
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 1: and about somebody's name surviving after their death. I mean,

826
00:44:18,080 --> 00:44:21,879
Speaker 1: it's in the title of the film. It's fundamentally meant

827
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: to be a record of this one individual person and

828
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: who he was, and what his relationship was like with

829
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 1: the woman who's making the film, and what his attitude

830
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 1: was towards all of these things, and how he felt

831
00:44:33,160 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: about death and how he felt about the degeneration coming

832
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 1: to death. Like it's such an interesting contrast to me

833
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 1: in terms of approaches. The approach that kind of like

834
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:49,399
Speaker 1: highmindedly says credit for art may not survive, but it's

835
00:44:49,440 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 1: important to make art anyway, And the approach that says,

836
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,280
Speaker 1: I don't want to let go of this one particular person,

837
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: so I'm going to make art built entirely around him,

838
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 1: not just so I'll have a record and we'll be

839
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: able to remember him, but so everybody else can know

840
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: him as well, so everybody else can have kind of

841
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: an insight into what this experience was like with this

842
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: man that I love and then I'm going to lose.

843
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 1: It's just too very interesting, I think, and very very

844
00:45:15,719 --> 00:45:20,919
Speaker 1: different approaches to the question of what survives after we're gone,

845
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 1: what our legacies look like.

846
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you're almost dealing with separate passions in

847
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,280
Speaker 4: a way. I mean, because I think with Orson Wells,

848
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 4: you're talking about art in a very abstract way. Not necessarily,

849
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 4: you know, and though I guess both are kind of

850
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,759
Speaker 4: optimistic in a certain extent, but there's one thing you

851
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 4: talk about art and the abstract, and then you're actually

852
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,239
Speaker 4: talking about a person, which is what Dick Johnson Is

853
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 4: Dead is about. And you're right, I mean, this is

854
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 4: a movie that preserves him and preserves that relationship, the

855
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 4: relationship he has with his daughter, and I think it

856
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 4: tries to do it in a way that is going

857
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 4: to be perhaps inspiring to everybody else. I mean, it's not,

858
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 4: you know, it's if it were if Dick Johnson Is

859
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,720
Speaker 4: Dead were just you know, it didn't kind of couldn't

860
00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,480
Speaker 4: be applied or wasn't identifiable to the rest of us,

861
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 4: it wouldn't work as well. But I think we can

862
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 4: take away a lot, we can reflect on our own

863
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 4: relationships with our parents or children or whatever, you know.

864
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 4: I mean, there's something just inspiring about the way Dick

865
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 4: Johnson and Christian Johnson to make their way through the

866
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:34,279
Speaker 4: world with heart and compassion and openness, you know, adventure, right,

867
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, all of this is like you

868
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 4: bottle that up and it's just kind of gold, you know.

869
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 4: And I mean, and that's something that all of us

870
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 4: can carry. Yeah, that anyone who encounters this movie can

871
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 4: kind of carry from. It is just a whole a

872
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 4: different perspective on the world that's cheering.

873
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 5: I think, Well, it's a good place to wind things down.

874
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 5: Dick Johnson Is Dead can be seen on Netflix, f

875
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 5: facus for you on the Criterion channel, HBO. Maximum Canopy

876
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 5: can be read of elsewhere digitally, and in addition, it's

877
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 5: available in Criterion DVD and Blu Ray. And as usual,

878
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 5: whether on the channel or the disc, the Criterion options

879
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 5: are the way to go. There's just a wealth of

880
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 5: exers on There is a really good commentary track to

881
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 5: go with it too. So we'll be right back with

882
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 5: your next picture show. Finally, a time to catch each

883
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 5: other up on films or film related items we've seen

884
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 5: in the interim since our last podcast, we call it

885
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 5: your Next Picture Show and the hopes that we'll put

886
00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 5: some interesting choices on your radar. Genevieve, what the film

887
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 5: world has been good for you lately?

888
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 2: Well, it hasn't really been good for me lately. I

889
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 2: have not watched this recently, but it is a film

890
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,399
Speaker 2: that I kept thinking of during f for Fake, and

891
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 2: if it were released today, I would absolutely want to

892
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 2: pair with that film. But the last it came out

893
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 2: ten years ago and it is called Exit through the

894
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 2: Gift Shop. It is a film by the artist banks which,

895
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 2: if you're familiar with Banksy should write away be an

896
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:04,839
Speaker 2: indication that this film is going to be something other

897
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:08,279
Speaker 2: than a straightforward documentary. Much like for Fake, it's an

898
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 2: essay film that kind of unspools along these different narrative paths,

899
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 2: but unlike for Fake, it all comes together in a

900
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,320
Speaker 2: very satisfying way that nonetheless avoids a sort of simple

901
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 2: pat conclusion. It's also a film that's very interested in

902
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 2: the nature of art, the role of the artist, and

903
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:26,319
Speaker 2: the intersection thereof And while the type of art it's

904
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 2: focused on isn't technically forgery, there's definitely an imposter component

905
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,160
Speaker 2: at play and the figure of Terry Getta, a wannabe

906
00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 2: street artist who refashions himself as mister Brainwash. It's also

907
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 2: like E for Fake, a film that's very tied to

908
00:48:39,680 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 2: the idea of editing as filmmaking. The backstory of the

909
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,319
Speaker 2: film is that Geta had filmed hundreds of hours of

910
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,959
Speaker 2: graffiti artists but was unable to make it into any

911
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:51,240
Speaker 2: sort of functional film, So Banksy took over the editing

912
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 2: and it became his film. Not unlike Wells and Reichenbach,

913
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 2: I'll note while Geta ended up doing let's say something

914
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,160
Speaker 2: different as mister Brainwash. Given though this is a Banksy

915
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 2: product in banks as a notorious trickster, it is hard

916
00:49:04,160 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 2: to delineate between the films on screen and off screen mythologies,

917
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,520
Speaker 2: and there was a lot of speculation about whether the

918
00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 2: whole thing was a hoax when it first came out,

919
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 2: and even more speculation about whether it mattered given the

920
00:49:15,239 --> 00:49:18,280
Speaker 2: end product, which was nominated for a Best Documentary Oscar

921
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,799
Speaker 2: that year. Like I said, I haven't rewatched Exit through

922
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 2: the Gift Shop in a while, so I can't say

923
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 2: how well it holds up. My hunch is that it

924
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:28,799
Speaker 2: does so very well, and after sitting through for Fake

925
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 2: I'm looking forward to having the time to revisit Exit

926
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,240
Speaker 2: through the gift shop. It's rentable in all the usual places.

927
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 2: Did anyone else have make that connection while they were

928
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 2: watching for Fake.

929
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 4: One?

930
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:42,359
Speaker 5: Well?

931
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 2: Thank you?

932
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:42,919
Speaker 3: Yeah.

933
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 4: I feel like banks is like Banksy's rep seems to

934
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 4: have like fallen since that movie.

935
00:49:48,120 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 2: That big like shredding the painting at auction stunt a

936
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 2: couple of years ago, there was this sort.

937
00:49:55,440 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 5: Of fake amusement park thing when people weren't so into

938
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 5: but whatever.

939
00:50:01,400 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 3: Can't hit everyone out of the park. But it's a

940
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 3: good movie.

941
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 2: Scott, what about you?

942
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 4: I had occasion for you know, I write this little

943
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,919
Speaker 4: newsletter double feature thing for New York Times where they're

944
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 4: watching newsletter every Friday. And my favorite of the kind

945
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 4: of the more recent vintage Disney nature documentaries is Oceans

946
00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 4: by Jacques Perine, and it's like and the reason I

947
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 4: like it so much is that it does have those

948
00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:29,800
Speaker 4: kind of requisite Disney nature elements of just a little

949
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 4: anthropomorphizing and some you know, kind of touchy feely new

950
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 4: age narration by Pierce Brosna, But it's also full of

951
00:50:39,600 --> 00:50:44,759
Speaker 4: just staggeringly beautiful abstract images. But that's not the film

952
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 4: I want to recommend, even though I would if you

953
00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 4: want to see one of those types of movies, I

954
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 4: would definitely check that out. I want to recommend something

955
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:57,360
Speaker 4: the same filmmakers did before in France called Winged Migration,

956
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 4: which is about birds flying great distances from one place

957
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 4: to another and following. That's the entire movie. It's just

958
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 4: following different migratory patterns. And what's so interesting about it

959
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 4: and almost calming about it, is that it dials back

960
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,839
Speaker 4: on all the information you might expect. There's very There

961
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 4: is a little bit of narration, but minimal, and then

962
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 4: but most of what you get is just the name

963
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 4: of the bird, how far they have to fly, and

964
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:31,480
Speaker 4: where they're going. Then all that's handled in a title,

965
00:51:31,880 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 4: and then you just watch them do it, and it's just,

966
00:51:34,440 --> 00:51:37,879
Speaker 4: you know, and just it's all about image making and

967
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 4: aerial photography and bird formations and just the fact that

968
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:46,520
Speaker 4: when you're following birds, I mean, you get to see

969
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 4: the globe, but you get to see like this interesting

970
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 4: topography from above, you know, I mean, you to see

971
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:55,280
Speaker 4: them flying through cities and mountains and you know, ice

972
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:58,560
Speaker 4: flows and there's just like it's just a wonderful experience,

973
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 4: and the fact that it takes away some of the

974
00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 4: things that you might expect from a nature documentary, like information, you.

975
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,240
Speaker 3: Know, educational aspect.

976
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 4: I mean, you know, and now most a lot of

977
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 4: them have you know, sort of environmental warnings because you know,

978
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 4: obviously things are not going so great.

979
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 3: It's soothing just to.

980
00:52:18,560 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 4: See it more as like a pure active cinema. So

981
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:24,480
Speaker 4: it's kind of worth revisiting, and I think it'll make

982
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 4: you you know, it's kind of a good feeling to

983
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 4: watch now kind of transporting so winged migration and also

984
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 4: obviously microcosmos from the you know, it was kind of

985
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,279
Speaker 4: started that whole thing too. That's pretty that's pretty great too.

986
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 2: So I love wing Migration. I'm a little sad we

987
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 2: weren't kind of talk about Disney Nature though, because I

988
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 2: have a surplus of thoughts on Disney Nature. I need

989
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 2: to do something with But a last you.

990
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:49,319
Speaker 4: Do, you've seen you've seen many of them, we've both

991
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:52,319
Speaker 4: seen many of them. Should be some sort of collaboration

992
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 4: at some point.

993
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:56,120
Speaker 2: Some sort of Yeah. I was gonna say, maybe maybe

994
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 2: that's a bonus episode.

995
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:01,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, for sure. But we've all been waiting for

996
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 4: Oh my God, Keith, what about You.

997
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:06,360
Speaker 5: I'm going to be a film adjacent because I'm deeping

998
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 5: the weeds on a couple of watching projects that that

999
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 5: probably don't really count for this, But there is a

1000
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,120
Speaker 5: podcast that's returning. We're talking between we talked to each

1001
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 5: other sometimes when we're not recording and between recording things, ulot,

1002
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:23,040
Speaker 5: how we missed the podcast called The Tobolawski Files, which

1003
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:26,359
Speaker 5: was created, produced, and hosted by our friend of the show,

1004
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:31,799
Speaker 5: David Chen, and it stars character actor extraordinaire Stephen Tobolawski,

1005
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:36,560
Speaker 5: who reflects on basically everything. It's like each episode is

1006
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 5: a you know, a little bit of storytelling from Stephen Toboloski,

1007
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 5: which he does very well in addition to being a

1008
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 5: good actor. But he kind of draws from different parts

1009
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 5: of his life and kind of unpacks incidences and memories

1010
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 5: and weaves them into into stories that and I think,

1011
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:56,239
Speaker 5: I think one thing I really like about it. You know,

1012
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 5: he is a man in his in his sixties at

1013
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 5: this point. He's a lot of experience, but it always

1014
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 5: kind of the approach is always like sort of someone

1015
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 5: who's still learning, not someone who's like handing down, but

1016
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 5: it's a wisdom from all experience with someone who's like

1017
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,440
Speaker 5: still processing life and still trying to figure out what

1018
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 5: it all means. I think it's a it's a delightful podcast.

1019
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:12,920
Speaker 3: I was.

1020
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:14,879
Speaker 5: I was saying, you know, it's been off the air

1021
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 5: for three years, and listening to the new episodes that

1022
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:21,000
Speaker 5: I was sent, it's likespending on old warm shirt. It's like, oh, yes,

1023
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:24,320
Speaker 5: here's this, here's this comforting thing that I'd forgotten about.

1024
00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 5: So it's it's check it out. It's it's there's a

1025
00:54:27,960 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 5: website called the Tobloski Files dot com. I think there's

1026
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 5: a YouTube element too, but you can find all about it.

1027
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 4: There having not listened to it at all, which is

1028
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 4: kind of ridiculous because people have been telling me, do it,

1029
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 4: to do it, let's do it forever, Like what's the

1030
00:54:39,560 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 4: what's the gateway? Like, what's that? What's the episode that

1031
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:43,800
Speaker 4: would just like knock you on your butt?

1032
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 5: The episode I always recommend when when is Episode forty

1033
00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 5: four is called The Voice from Another Room, which is

1034
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:54,080
Speaker 5: about his experiences co writing the script to True Stories,

1035
00:54:54,120 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 5: the David Byrne film with with Beth Henley the playwright

1036
00:54:57,120 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 5: who is his partner for years, and it is I'll

1037
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:02,239
Speaker 5: forget the details so and I don't want to spoil

1038
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:06,400
Speaker 5: the surprises, but you'll basically learn how the band Radiohead

1039
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 5: is indirectly related to a very strange experience that Stephen

1040
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 5: Tobolowski had in his younger years, inspired an incident in

1041
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:16,760
Speaker 5: the film that inspired the song that inspired the band.

1042
00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:19,279
Speaker 5: But in terms of finding out what that is, I'll

1043
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:22,759
Speaker 5: let people discover for themselves, so you know, you can

1044
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 5: jump at any point.

1045
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:23,680
Speaker 6: Though.

1046
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:25,960
Speaker 5: One thing is there's no chronology to it. It's just

1047
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,319
Speaker 5: kind of a kind of from all across his life,

1048
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 5: and there's lots of good Hollywood stories, but also just

1049
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 5: sort of reflections on being a father, being a son,

1050
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 5: and so on and so forth.

1051
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 1: And being a boyfriend. One of the big through lines,

1052
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 1: which again not the story itself, is not chronological. You

1053
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:48,120
Speaker 1: won't get kind of a start to finish story of

1054
00:55:48,520 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 1: this very central relationship in his life by listening to

1055
00:55:52,560 --> 00:55:55,680
Speaker 1: the podcast start to Finish, but you will get it

1056
00:55:55,800 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 1: in very deliberate segments, like you'll get it if you

1057
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:00,920
Speaker 1: start at the beginning and go on till you come

1058
00:56:00,960 --> 00:56:03,600
Speaker 1: to the end, and then stop as Lewis Carroll would

1059
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:08,960
Speaker 1: have said, you end up with a portrait pieced together

1060
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 1: like a giant jigsaw puzzle of how this relationship happened

1061
00:56:13,640 --> 00:56:16,400
Speaker 1: and how it operated and how it fell out in

1062
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 1: a way that's just very consciously assembled. I think it's

1063
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:23,319
Speaker 1: a remarkable how much the individual episodes of the Tobolowski

1064
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 1: Files stand alone and independent, and yet at the same time,

1065
00:56:27,680 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 1: how much you can feel, over time them filling in

1066
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:34,840
Speaker 1: all of these different holes and gaps that they deliberately

1067
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:39,319
Speaker 1: consciously leave for the story of this man's life. If

1068
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 1: you want something, if you want to start someplace like

1069
00:56:41,840 --> 00:56:45,320
Speaker 1: fun and Light, Episode twenty nine is just about behind

1070
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:49,319
Speaker 1: the scenes on Groundhog Day. It's called the Classic, and

1071
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:52,279
Speaker 1: it gives you a bunch of trivia about sort of

1072
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 1: what that film was like, what his experience was like,

1073
00:56:54,800 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 1: and a bunch of observations about being in the film industry.

1074
00:56:57,680 --> 00:57:01,040
Speaker 1: And that's really fun. Though I cannot remember which episode

1075
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:04,320
Speaker 1: it was, he goes into detail about working with Steven Sagal,

1076
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 1: and that's the memory that I'm forever going to carry

1077
00:57:07,920 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 1: imagine out of this podcast. He's a consummate storyteller. He's very,

1078
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:19,840
Speaker 1: very kind, honestly, very sweet and very wise, and so

1079
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 1: many of these podcast individual podcast stories kind of start

1080
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:27,280
Speaker 1: with like, here's maybe a piece of trivia about a

1081
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: film that you know and love, and then go into

1082
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:33,440
Speaker 1: a long and thoughtful story from his life that might

1083
00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 1: be about film, or might be personal, or might be

1084
00:57:35,880 --> 00:57:39,240
Speaker 1: something else entirely, and then come to a really surprising conclusion.

1085
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: It's it's really well crafted. I'm so excited it's coming back.

1086
00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 5: Tasha. How about you? Would you recommend?

1087
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 1: Well, nothing as good as the Tobaalaski Files. I'll tell

1088
00:57:47,080 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: you that it's been a week. It's been. We're recording

1089
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 1: these because of the whole situation where we recorded our

1090
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 1: pair up for Kajillionaire and Dog Tooth and then realize

1091
00:57:59,280 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 1: that Kajillionaire wasn't coming to vod for another couple of

1092
00:58:02,120 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 1: weeks past the date where it was coming to theaters.

1093
00:58:05,040 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 1: We're recording this exactly one week after after the last one,

1094
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 1: and it's certainly in the podcast magic.

1095
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 2: Tasha, I knowing it all.

1096
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 1: It's all assembled out of different fragments, and I fooled

1097
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,320
Speaker 1: you and I know more than you do, but I'm

1098
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:26,280
Speaker 1: gonna let you behind the scenes because I'm a benevolent

1099
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:31,360
Speaker 1: Kirsten Johnson host as opposed to a smarmy ass theler

1100
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:33,520
Speaker 1: person Welles host. The point is I haven't had a

1101
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:36,040
Speaker 1: lot of time to watch for you some complaints to

1102
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 1: Tasha misfernounces is everything At next Picture Show dot com.

1103
00:58:42,760 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 2: There's also a.

1104
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 1: Fat number of reecably with voice mails. Yeah, I haven't

1105
00:58:46,720 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 1: had a lot of time to watch stuff. And also

1106
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 1: due to uh political stress and gestures vaguely at World,

1107
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 1: I have not been much in the headspace for watching films.

1108
00:58:57,360 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 1: So during a particularly stressful moment, I sat down with

1109
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:06,080
Speaker 1: Troll's World Tour, which was just literally the only thing

1110
00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 1: I could contemplate putting into my brain at that particular

1111
00:59:10,200 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 1: point in time. I loved the first Trolls, the twenty

1112
00:59:13,120 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 1: sixteen Trolls. It was one of those films that I

1113
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 1: sort of grudgingly went to see out of a feeling

1114
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:22,680
Speaker 1: of like, we it's a big animated movie, we're going

1115
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:25,320
Speaker 1: to need to cover it, and it just it delighted me.

1116
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:29,840
Speaker 1: The songs are silly and over the top, the surrealism

1117
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 1: is really rich, that the acid trip imagery is kind

1118
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:38,800
Speaker 1: of remarkable, and just overall it's just a very different

1119
00:59:38,880 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 1: kind of animated film. Troll's World Tour is not that

1120
00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:46,200
Speaker 1: at all. It's a pretty bog standard kind of children's movie.

1121
00:59:46,600 --> 00:59:49,800
Speaker 1: There's a bad guy played by Rachel Bloom from crazy

1122
00:59:49,800 --> 00:59:53,680
Speaker 1: ex girlfriend. She wants to steal everybody's uniqueness and make

1123
00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 1: everybody the same. There's a big message about how that's

1124
00:59:56,560 --> 00:59:57,640
Speaker 1: bad and why.

1125
00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:58,640
Speaker 2: And how it relates to music.

1126
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 1: Oh, it's just overall and the songs are kind of

1127
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:08,720
Speaker 1: fun but just not inspired in the same kind of way.

1128
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:13,440
Speaker 1: But the design of this movie, I could honestly recommend

1129
01:00:13,440 --> 01:00:15,880
Speaker 1: that people put this movie on in the background as

1130
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:18,640
Speaker 1: a giant screen saver and mute it and just have

1131
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:22,440
Speaker 1: it running, or honestly just examine it to see kind

1132
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 1: of some of the stuff going on in non Pixar

1133
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 1: animation these days. The first film, kind of the framing

1134
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:32,280
Speaker 1: device was that maybe the whole story was being told

1135
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 1: like via a scrap book of the story that somebody

1136
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 1: had made. So there's kind of a framing device that

1137
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 1: involves like little felt versions of the characters in like

1138
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:45,320
Speaker 1: a little like fiber craft book, and it's all playing out.

1139
01:00:45,480 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 1: But then that that visual extends to the rest of

1140
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 1: the film, which is like fibercraft and papercraft, Like everything

1141
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 1: has a fuzzy texture or like looks in some way

1142
01:00:56,040 --> 01:00:58,680
Speaker 1: like it was cut out or drawn or sewn in

1143
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 1: some way. And the new One is just such a

1144
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 1: fibercraft film. It's so remarkable. I find myself just completely

1145
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 1: ignoring whatever, like big dumb chase everybody was supposed to

1146
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:14,880
Speaker 1: be on or whatever, like big broad hero villain moment

1147
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 1: was supposed to be happening, and looking at the backgrounds.

1148
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 1: There's a chase scene out of a Western where our

1149
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:25,200
Speaker 1: hero trolls offend some country music trolls and are being

1150
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:28,320
Speaker 1: chased through the landscape, and the camera pulls back to

1151
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 1: visualize this like deep canyon with a river running through

1152
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 1: the bottom of it, just very standard like Western landscape,

1153
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:40,440
Speaker 1: and the canyon is made up of piled quilts, piled

1154
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 1: folded quilts, and you can see like every stitch and texture.

1155
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:47,600
Speaker 1: There's a scene where the protagonist comes down to the

1156
01:01:47,640 --> 01:01:51,440
Speaker 1: shoreline of a lake and looks at her reflection, and

1157
01:01:51,480 --> 01:01:55,080
Speaker 1: the shoreline is visibly made out of like like the

1158
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:58,959
Speaker 1: tattered edge of a ragged piece of fabric, which looks

1159
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:01,960
Speaker 1: like the foam at the end edge of the water.

1160
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 1: Just like everything in this film is so visually thought

1161
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:11,480
Speaker 1: through and so beautiful. When the pop music trolls end

1162
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:15,000
Speaker 1: up in the rock music troll's evil lair, it's made

1163
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:19,280
Speaker 1: up of ragged denim. When they're on stage together, you

1164
01:02:19,280 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 1: can see like the big thick weave of yarn used

1165
01:02:24,360 --> 01:02:27,880
Speaker 1: to sew the whole thing. It's ridiculous. It delights me

1166
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:31,920
Speaker 1: to know how much thought went into realizing kind of

1167
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 1: the backgrounds and the setting and the aesthetic of this film.

1168
01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 1: It would have been so easy to make it another

1169
01:02:37,680 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 1: generic CGI animated movie. But it's honestly really delightful, and

1170
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:44,600
Speaker 1: it's on Hulu now, so you no longer have to

1171
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:47,040
Speaker 1: pay an additional twenty dollars in order to have it

1172
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:50,000
Speaker 1: for like three days. You can just kind of click

1173
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:54,880
Speaker 1: it on and watch it randomly until you get kind

1174
01:02:54,880 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 1: of like bored of extremely colorful kind of sussi and

1175
01:02:59,080 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 1: whimsy in the visuals, and then you can move on

1176
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 1: with your life.

1177
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:04,680
Speaker 5: And you can learn about the six types of music,

1178
01:03:04,800 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 5: of which there are There are no no other types

1179
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:08,240
Speaker 5: of music, but the six types of music.

1180
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:12,000
Speaker 1: Well, somebody hasn't seen the movie, because there are a

1181
01:03:12,040 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 1: bunch of other types of music as well. I've seen,

1182
01:03:18,360 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 1: so you say that like somebody who doesn't strongly remember

1183
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:23,880
Speaker 1: the Reggaetons sequels.

1184
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 5: And that's it for this edition of The Next Picture Show.

1185
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:37,479
Speaker 5: And that's actually it for this edition the Next Picture Show.

1186
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 5: You know, our next parent We did a little bit

1187
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:42,600
Speaker 5: of f for faker Ree switch Rue because of some

1188
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:45,200
Speaker 5: scheduling issues were movies we're getting moved around. So we're

1189
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:48,680
Speaker 5: actually going to come back next with our long promised,

1190
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:55,400
Speaker 5: hotly anticipated pairing of Dog Tooth and Kajillionaire, two films

1191
01:03:55,440 --> 01:03:58,720
Speaker 5: about unusual families. I guess as we'll leave it at that,

1192
01:03:59,080 --> 01:04:02,400
Speaker 5: those will finally come out on October thirteenth and October twentieth.

1193
01:04:02,880 --> 01:04:04,760
Speaker 5: In the meantime, lout to hear your feedback on this

1194
01:04:04,760 --> 01:04:07,320
Speaker 5: week's discussion of f for Fake Dick Johnson is Dead

1195
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:09,680
Speaker 5: at anything else film related you'd like to talk about.

1196
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:11,920
Speaker 5: We want to include your thoughts on future episodes of

1197
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:14,480
Speaker 5: the show. You can leave a short voicemail at seven

1198
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 5: seven three two three four nine seven three zero, or

1199
01:04:17,320 --> 01:04:20,680
Speaker 5: email us at comments Atnext Pictureshow dot net. We may

1200
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:22,960
Speaker 5: post your response on Facebook for discussion, or we did

1201
01:04:23,000 --> 01:04:25,920
Speaker 5: it on a future episode of the show. Finally, before

1202
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 5: closing out this week's episode. Where can we find everyone

1203
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:29,640
Speaker 5: these days? Scott?

1204
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:32,760
Speaker 4: You can find me on Twitter at Scott Underscore Tobias.

1205
01:04:33,080 --> 01:04:37,400
Speaker 4: You can find my work in New York Times, The Ringer, Vulture, Guardian,

1206
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 4: and other fine publications. I feel like I should also

1207
01:04:40,400 --> 01:04:44,640
Speaker 4: say I spent September working like crazy on three fairly

1208
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 4: large features, all of which will be out by the

1209
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:51,560
Speaker 4: time you've listened to this. So I wrote about Letterboxed

1210
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:55,920
Speaker 4: for The Ringer. I also wrote about a profile of

1211
01:04:56,040 --> 01:04:58,600
Speaker 4: Kirsten Johnson, also for The Ringer, and then I have

1212
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:02,760
Speaker 4: a piece about Wilderness of Air, the FX adaptation of

1213
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:05,200
Speaker 4: the Errol Morris book that's through the New York Times.

1214
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:08,920
Speaker 1: Tasha, I'm the film and TV editor at Polygon dot Com.

1215
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:11,720
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Tasha Robinson. I

1216
01:05:11,720 --> 01:05:15,120
Speaker 1: ain't written nothing lately, but I'm hoping to actually get

1217
01:05:15,160 --> 01:05:18,120
Speaker 1: back into it as we wind September down and heading

1218
01:05:18,200 --> 01:05:24,240
Speaker 1: to the exciting land of small strange October horror film releases.

1219
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:27,400
Speaker 1: We'll see how that goes. Genevieve, how about you.

1220
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:32,040
Speaker 2: I am the deputy TV editor at Vulture, and by

1221
01:05:32,080 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 2: the time you hear this, or the day that this

1222
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:37,360
Speaker 2: comes out, I should say we will have kicked off

1223
01:05:37,400 --> 01:05:40,120
Speaker 2: a big package that I have been working on for

1224
01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:43,640
Speaker 2: a while now, on the one hundred sequences that shaped animation.

1225
01:05:43,920 --> 01:05:46,680
Speaker 2: It's a big and impressive and very cool list that

1226
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,280
Speaker 2: I'm excited to be to have out in the world,

1227
01:05:49,280 --> 01:05:52,760
Speaker 2: along with a lot of supplementary stuff that I did

1228
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:56,000
Speaker 2: not write, but it definitely had a hand in shaping.

1229
01:05:56,160 --> 01:05:58,880
Speaker 2: So I hope you will check that out, and you

1230
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:02,200
Speaker 2: can find me on Twitter at Genevieve Koski Keith.

1231
01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:04,600
Speaker 5: I'm a freelance writer, which means I write all the

1232
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 5: time for places like mel and Vulture and The Ringer

1233
01:06:10,080 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 5: and Rolling Stone occasionally, and I'm all over the place

1234
01:06:13,400 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 5: these days. You can find me on Twitter at k

1235
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:18,840
Speaker 5: Phipps three thousand. You can say updated on the Next

1236
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:21,640
Speaker 5: Picture Show by visiting Next Picture Show dot Net, via

1237
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:24,800
Speaker 5: Twitter at Next Picture Pod, and via Facebook at Facebook

1238
01:06:24,840 --> 01:06:27,560
Speaker 5: dot com slash Next Picture Show. You can also contribute

1239
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:30,200
Speaker 5: to our Patreon and get bonus content at Patreon dot

1240
01:06:30,240 --> 01:06:32,880
Speaker 5: com slash Next Picture Show. If you haven't subscribed to

1241
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:35,680
Speaker 5: the show on Apple podcast already, please consider it. Apple

1242
01:06:35,720 --> 01:06:38,600
Speaker 5: podcast subscriptions are an important part of getting podcasts more

1243
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 5: prominent and more listeners, and while you're there, we appreciate

1244
01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 5: every ridy and review. Every thumbs up helps us find

1245
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:48,080
Speaker 5: new listeners and keep the show going. Thanks to Dan

1246
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 5: the Bake Snakes for his assistants producing this podcast. The

1247
01:06:51,480 --> 01:06:53,800
Speaker 5: Next Picture Show is proudly part of the Film Spotting

1248
01:06:53,800 --> 01:06:56,480
Speaker 5: family and podcast. Please tune in next time.

1249
01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:05,400
Speaker 2: Backers and back