1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: It's hard to describe why something that felt like such 2 00:00:04,040 --> 00:00:06,720 Speaker 1: a hail Mary seemed like a good idea at the time. 3 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: People sometimes described that before they go on an ayahuasca retreat, 4 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: there's almost like this gravitational pull. It's almost like there's 5 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: some force that is pushing them into this mysterious realm. 6 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 2: From Fudromedia and VRX, It's Latino, Usa. I'm Maria no 7 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 2: JSA Today journalist and author, Ernesto Londono shares his healing 8 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 2: journey with psychedelics and talks about the hopes and worries 9 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 2: about their therapeutic use. Ernesto Londono is a national correspondent 10 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 2: at The New York Times, where recovers the Midwest. Originally 11 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 2: from Bogota, Colombia, Ernesto moved to the United States for 12 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,239 Speaker 2: college in nineteen ninety nine, and later he would end 13 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 2: up working for several major publications like the Dallas Morning 14 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 2: News and the Washington Post, where recovered the wars in 15 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 2: Iraq and Afghanistan and eventually ended up on the front 16 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 2: page of The New York Times. This year, he released 17 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 2: his first book, It's called Trippy, The Peril and Promise 18 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 2: of medicinal psychedelics. It explores the use of psychedelic therapy. 19 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 2: Ennisto based his book on his own experience with psychedelics, 20 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 2: especially with ayahuasca, which is a psychoactive brew made with 21 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 2: plants from the Amazon jungle. The book opens around the 22 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 2: time that Anisto moved to Rio de Janeiro in twenty seventeen. 23 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 2: He had just become the Brazil bureau chief for The 24 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,320 Speaker 2: New York Times, and arguably he was at the height 25 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:41,919 Speaker 2: of his career, but he was struggling with depression. It 26 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 2: wasn't the first time that Ernsto was dealing with mental 27 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 2: health issues, but he says that this particular moment in 28 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 2: his life in Rio de Janio and his journalistic curiosity 29 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 2: led him to decide to attend his first ayahuasca retreat 30 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 2: in the Brazilian rainforest. This his experience unlocked a series 31 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 2: of doors to his own healing. It drew him closer 32 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 2: to understanding his ancestral trauma and familial roots. It also 33 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 2: triggered him to further examine some of the hard moments 34 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 2: he had experienced in his life. This reporting journey sparked 35 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 2: questions about the science of psychedelics, Questions that can't entirely 36 00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 2: be answered today because research on psychedelics as medicine has 37 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 2: only begun to scratch the surface. In his reporting, Ednisto 38 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 2: realized that there is a lack of regulation in the 39 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: use of psychedelics for therapeutic purposes, and this leaves room 40 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 2: for malpractice, for overpromising the healing aspects of these drugs, 41 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 2: for whitewashing indigenous practices, and even for sexual abuse. Ednisto 42 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 2: ended up investigating all of these issues in his book Trippy, 43 00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: so on today's episode, Ernesto London describes his first ayahuasca retreat, 44 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 2: what he's come to learn about himself, and he looks 45 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 2: at questions about the medicinal psychedelic industry that remain unanswered. 46 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 2: Here's Ernesto London in his own words. 47 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: My name is Ernesto London. I'm a correspondent at the 48 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 1: New York Times, and I'm the author of Trippy, The 49 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:21,280 Speaker 1: Peril and Promise of Medicinal Psychedelics. This story starts in 50 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: the summer of twenty seventeen. I was a member of 51 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: the editorial board, so I was writing editorials mainly about 52 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 1: foreign policy. Early in my time at the newspaper, I 53 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: made a splash with a series of editorials about Cuba 54 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,560 Speaker 1: and specifically calling on the Obama administration to normalize relations 55 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: with Cuba. When the editors asked me if I'd be 56 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: interested in applying for the Brazil Bureau chief job, the 57 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: idea of trading life in New York and going to 58 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: the tropics was very appealing. It was also the dawn 59 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: of the Trump era and thanks for very tense so 60 00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,880 Speaker 1: the assignment in Brazil, it just seemed like a dream 61 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: come true. I initially saw this as a homecoming of sorts. 62 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: I was born and raised in Columbia, and even though 63 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:13,680 Speaker 1: Brazil and Columbia are very different countries, there's a lot 64 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: of similarities in terms of how life is a little 65 00:04:16,200 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: less structured, how people are a little warmer. So I 66 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:28,279 Speaker 1: arrived in Rio de Janeiro, which was going to be 67 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: my new home. It feels like there's always a party 68 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 1: going on. There's always music playing or booming. The beaches 69 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: are thronged, but there's also a shocking amount of poverty 70 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:45,359 Speaker 1: and violence. I remember checking into a hotel and just 71 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:49,119 Speaker 1: being miserable for a couple of days and just feeling 72 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:53,360 Speaker 1: incredibly lonely and then once I got settled in and 73 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: found an apartment with this majestic view of the ocean, 74 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: pretty much instantly, within days or weeks, it fell into 75 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:06,240 Speaker 1: this state of depression, unlike any I had experienced before. 76 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:08,960 Speaker 1: I think as I look back, I had had many 77 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: episodes of depression in my life, but I also developed 78 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: effective coping mechanisms, and I think the key one was 79 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 1: just pouring myself into work and creating a life that 80 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: was so busy and having so many deadlines that it 81 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: didn't really allow time to sit with these dark thoughts 82 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 1: swirling through the mind. And it was maybe only when 83 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: I got to Brazil that it became inevitable to face 84 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,440 Speaker 1: the music and to actually become overwhelmed with some of 85 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: these thoughts. At the time, my depression was something that 86 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 1: I kept to myself. I didn't even feel entitled to 87 00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: reach out for help. It would have been really hard 88 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 1: to call up a therapist and try to explain, you know, 89 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: my mood is really really dark, but everything in my 90 00:05:53,720 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: life is going right. In the family I was raised 91 00:05:58,040 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: and the culture I was raised do a pretty bad 92 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: job at speaking frankly and candidly about mental health. It 93 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 1: was this one night where I went to bed, having 94 00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: had maybe two or three glasses of whiskey, and it 95 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: was a very sleepless night. It was very windy and 96 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: the windows in my room rattled, which made it impossible 97 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: to fall asleep, and kind of on a whim, I 98 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: grabbed my laptop. It would have been three or four 99 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: in the morning, and I googled ayahuasca retreats Brazil. And 100 00:06:28,839 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: the reason this had been on my mind is I 101 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:36,760 Speaker 1: had intended to maybe pursue a story about ayahuasca retreats 102 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 1: in Latin America, and all of a sudden, what began 103 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: as a journalistic curiosity turned into a personal quest. The 104 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: first click I found was this loopy YouTube video recorded 105 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 1: by an Argentine woman who has been hosting ayahuasca retreats 106 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: up in the state of Bayea in Brazil near the Ocean. 107 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 3: Ayahuaska is an amplifier. The little behavior of your everyday 108 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 3: life will be amplify, so you can't realize what you 109 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 3: are doing to create situations. Instead of feeling a victim, 110 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 3: you know how you are doing it. 111 00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: There was something really soothing about her voice. I think 112 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: when I go back and look at the video now, 113 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: a lot of it sounds bunkers, it may sound a 114 00:07:21,920 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 1: little bit cuilty. There's all these very woo woo terms, 115 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: there's all these special effects. But there was something about 116 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: the confidence in her voice that made me convinced that 117 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: this could be the off ramp for me. It's hard 118 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,520 Speaker 1: to describe why something that felt like such a hil 119 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: mary seemed like a good idea at the time. People 120 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,680 Speaker 1: sometimes described that before they go on an ayahuasca retreat, 121 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: there's almost like this gravitational pull. It's almost like there's 122 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: some force that is pushing them into this mysterious realm. 123 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: Before I got to this retreat, I knew a little 124 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: bit about ayahuasca. I knew that among psychiatrists and clinicians 125 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: in the United States there was a lot of interest 126 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: in studying whether psychedelics and psychedelic experiences had therapeutic potential. 127 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,240 Speaker 1: So I understood there was a promise. But I also 128 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 1: so understood that the science on this was in its infancy, 129 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: and that there were many unanswered questions. When you read 130 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: a little bit about what the ceremonies entail, they're not 131 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: hugely appealing. You read about people who spent their nights puking. 132 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: You read about people who go into very dark places 133 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: and have to sit with really painful memories. So this 134 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: is in no way, shape or form a party drug 135 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: or an experience that people describe as exhilarating or for 136 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,199 Speaker 1: adventure seekers. I think this is something that people often 137 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: gravitate to when they're pretty desperate and they're hoping this 138 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:58,319 Speaker 1: mysterious drink from the jungle will induce something of a 139 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: hardware reset for the mind. I meet Sylvia, who's kind 140 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: of this grandmotherly figure who's very warm but also very stern. 141 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: Her compound is this gorgeous slice of rainforest. She has 142 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: a number of bungalows that are very very comfortable with 143 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: hammocks and with really nice views of a little pond. 144 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:23,479 Speaker 1: So what happens is we walk in, unpack our bags, 145 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 1: and then everybody kind of introduces themselves, and Sylvia lays 146 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,320 Speaker 1: out what the days ahead are going to look like, 147 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: and it all of a sudden becomes clear that this 148 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: is not going to be a vacation, that this is 149 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 1: going to entail very hard work, and that there's going 150 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: to be very difficult moments ahead. We had to stop 151 00:09:43,280 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: drinking a week before going on the retreat. Then we 152 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: were subjected to this saltless vegetarian food for the entire week. 153 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: We had to abstain from sex, even masturbation, in the 154 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: lead up to the retreat, during the retreat, and even 155 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: after the retreat. So I think I remember like at 156 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: one point asking myself, did I just stumble into a cult? 157 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 2: Like? 158 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: What was I thinking coming here? When I start meeting 159 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: some of my fellow participants for the week, it becomes 160 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:12,719 Speaker 1: clear that maybe half of the group had a lot 161 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 1: of experience in this and were what I would describe 162 00:10:15,720 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: as like true believers. And they would talk in ways 163 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,080 Speaker 1: that felt jarring. They would call it mother ayahuasca. It 164 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 1: was almost like they were personifying this sludge we were 165 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: about to drink. They also called it the medicine, and 166 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: I think there was a lot of language policing around 167 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 1: using the term drug to describe what we were about 168 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: to do. And then the other thing that became apparent 169 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: to me right away when we went around the circle 170 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: introducing ourselves was that a lot of these people were 171 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: in a lot of pain. I soon realized that I 172 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: was not the only person who was on something of 173 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: a desperate quest to feel better and to find something 174 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: that was going to help me turn the corner mentally emotionally. 175 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 1: During Sylvia's retreats, participants go through these workshops during the 176 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: day that are supposed to work hand in hand with 177 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,560 Speaker 1: the ceremonies at night, and I remember one of the 178 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:14,200 Speaker 1: first ones I did was about connecting with our inner child, 179 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: which kind of felt strange to me. But there was 180 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 1: this meditation that she led us, and the instructions were 181 00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: that we were to sit quietly for a period of 182 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: time and then try to latch on to any memory 183 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: from childhood that came up that seemed meaningful. Everybody close 184 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: their eyes. She had a very soothing voice, and I 185 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: remember just having one eye open and scanning the room 186 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 1: and refusing to be swept into this rigamar role. But 187 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: I actually did latch onto a memory. It involved being 188 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: in a car accident when I was a child and 189 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: we were on a road trip with my parents. 190 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:52,199 Speaker 2: It was a. 191 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 1: Strange thing to have a chance to reflect on a 192 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 1: moment in my personal history that I hadn't had reason 193 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: to re examine for many, many years, and it set 194 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: the stage really nicely for what would later happen in ceremony. 195 00:12:13,080 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: The Ayahuasca ceremonies at this retreat center happen at night 196 00:12:16,160 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: around ten pm. All the lights on the compound are 197 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: dimmed and participants make their way to the ceremony room 198 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: with flashlights. The ceremony room is enveloped with a mesh, 199 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: so it means you hear the sounds of the rainforest 200 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: really loud and clear. You hear frogs croaking, and insects wailing, 201 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: and maybe even monkeys in the distance. It's almost like 202 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: this magical symphony of the jungle. And in the ceremony room, 203 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: each person has a matte to lie on, a blanket, 204 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: a pillow, and a bucket because oftentimes, after you drink ayahuasca, 205 00:12:57,120 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: you purge very forcefully. Right before we each take our 206 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: glass of ayahuasca, Sylvia has people stand in a circle 207 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: and everybody has to set their intention for the ceremony 208 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: and speak it out loud. Ayahuasca smells awful, and it 209 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: tastes even worse. It's this sort of brown sludge that 210 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,440 Speaker 1: has the consistency of maybe Turkish coffee. You typically have 211 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: to just drink it in one big swig, otherwise, you know, 212 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: it's too revolting to sort of have in a few SIPs. 213 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 1: We take this drink, and she starts playing some music, 214 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,320 Speaker 1: and you just sit there or lie there in the dark, 215 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: listening to her music and also listening to the sounds 216 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 1: of the rainforest and just wait for your mind and 217 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: your thoughts to start shifting as the effects of this 218 00:13:51,280 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: beverage start to take hold. I remember feeling really afraid 219 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: of surrendering and loosing control of my rational mind. It 220 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:06,319 Speaker 1: felt like there was going to be a tipping point 221 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: where I was no longer going to be myself, and 222 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: I was very forcefully resisting this. And then I think 223 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 1: there was just one moment where it was almost like 224 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: you switched the channel. There were these majestic visions and 225 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: colors that started faint and then grew really bright and sharp, 226 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: and I was just messmonized by the beauty and by 227 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: the intricacy of these images, and also just really puzzled 228 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: about where they came from. Was this from another realm? 229 00:14:33,680 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: Was this just what being stone felt like? What was 230 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: most interesting about these altered states of consciousness, beyond kind 231 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 1: of the razzle dazzle of the images and the fireworks, 232 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,920 Speaker 1: was a memory retrieval process that was really fascinating. It 233 00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:00,080 Speaker 1: was almost like I was guided to examine early moments 234 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: of my life, oftentimes from childhood, oftentimes from adolescents, that 235 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 1: were filed away in some dark filing cabinet of my brain. 236 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:10,280 Speaker 1: But it was a kind of memory that you never 237 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: really have a reason to go back and think about 238 00:15:13,520 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 1: and really reflect on. There was something really cathartic about that, 239 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: about winding back the tape, going back to the past, 240 00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: sitting with these memories, and being compassionate toward myself. It 241 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,760 Speaker 1: was as though the venom that each of these memories 242 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:40,080 Speaker 1: contained had been sucked out when I had left to 243 00:15:40,120 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: this first retreat. I was stunned by the fact that 244 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 1: I no longer felt depressed. I felt almost like an 245 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 1: instant reprieve where I was sleeping soundly at night. I 246 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:54,640 Speaker 1: stopped drinking alcohol because it became really clear to me 247 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: that my relationship with alcohol had been unhealthy and problematic 248 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,760 Speaker 1: and detrimental to both my physics and mental health, and 249 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: I began meditating. That intuitively felt like a better way 250 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: to start interacting and experiencing my thoughts in a way 251 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 1: that was going to be a little easier. I also 252 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: walked away with so many questions, not just about what 253 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: had happened in my brain, But about this broader field 254 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: of retreats with psychoactive compounds and all the really sort 255 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: of colorful characters who were carving out roles for themselves 256 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: as evangelists for these therapies that were more fueled by 257 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: hype than by clear science about their efficacy. So when 258 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: you start looking about this growing ecosystem of psychedelic therapy 259 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: and retreats, what you also find is that there's a 260 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: lot of room for malpractice. Oftentimes in this emerging landscape, 261 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: the most vulnerable people can't really be discerning or careful 262 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,560 Speaker 1: in where they put their faith in. And also, by 263 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: virtue being so vulnerable, you know, it's really hard for 264 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: them to be careful about who they trust with their 265 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: mind and their body. One of the first things I 266 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,200 Speaker 1: realized after I started studying this field is that there's 267 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:16,480 Speaker 1: been a pervasive problem of sexual abuse in the circles, 268 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:21,400 Speaker 1: and oftentimes women walk away from these experiences, which end up, 269 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,439 Speaker 1: of course being more traumatizing than healing. There's been a 270 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 1: tendency to sweep bad news under the rug because there's 271 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,360 Speaker 1: so many people who feel very strongly that these compounds 272 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,760 Speaker 1: have tremendous therapeutic potential. And as a journalist that felt 273 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: wrong to me. It felt that it was important for 274 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:41,880 Speaker 1: somebody to point a spotlight into some of these dark 275 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 1: corners and suggest that there should be a reckoning about 276 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,959 Speaker 1: the parts of this landscape that are not only problematic 277 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 1: but dangerous. Not only are people not getting healed, they're 278 00:17:52,560 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: actually getting hurt. Our scientific understanding of what exactly happens 279 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:08,040 Speaker 1: to the brain on psychedelics is still in its early stages. 280 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: There's still a lot of unanswered questions, and to a 281 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: large extent this remains mysterious. But there's an emerging consensus 282 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:20,159 Speaker 1: that when you take a compound like ayahuasca or so 283 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:24,920 Speaker 1: called magic mushrooms, it induces a period of disruptive thinking. 284 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 1: It creates something called neural plasticity, which means that parts 285 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: of the brain that normally don't speak to each other 286 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:37,720 Speaker 1: become connected. And what this means is people are able 287 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,280 Speaker 1: to not only look back on memories that may have 288 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: been inaccessible or may have been very faint, and really 289 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: find new meaning and new ways of looking and feeling 290 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:54,520 Speaker 1: about these memories. I haven't hear people make really extraordinary 291 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 1: claims about psychedelic sessions. For instance, one thing you often 292 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,160 Speaker 1: hear is it was ten years of therapy in one night. 293 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: And I worry a little bit about how hyperbolic the 294 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,679 Speaker 1: discourse around psychedelic ceremonies has become, because I think it 295 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 1: often sets up people for unrealistic expectations. Oftentimes, when you 296 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: do this in a safe setting, under somebody who's a 297 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: steady hand guiding you through these experiences, it unlocks a 298 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 1: door and then you flip a switch and you walk 299 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 1: into a room, and all of a sudden you realize 300 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: just how messy things are. By virtue, having opened this 301 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: door and having turned on the lights, at least you 302 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:35,479 Speaker 1: have visibility on what it would take to clean up 303 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,679 Speaker 1: the mess you made. And then the question is do 304 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: you have the wherewithal and the discipline and the intention 305 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 1: to start doing the hard work of cleaning up the 306 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,800 Speaker 1: messes you've made in your life. It can make you 307 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: aware of things that weren't visible before, but it requires 308 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:56,400 Speaker 1: a lot of work, and the work is done by you, 309 00:19:56,840 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: not by the psychedelics. My hope is that this book 310 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:06,359 Speaker 1: contributes to a more constructive and candid conversation not just 311 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,399 Speaker 1: about mental health, but about the intersection of mental health 312 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,160 Speaker 1: and the use of mind altering compounds. I think historically 313 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: we've done a bad job at speaking openly and honestly 314 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: about these issues. I think what Trippy points out is 315 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: that there's a number of red flags in this landscape, 316 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: and there's a number of ways in which this emerging 317 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: field of medicine spirituality could go off the rails if 318 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: some of the more reckless practitioners are the ones who 319 00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 1: end up shaping the field and perceptions about the field. 320 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 1: And I think we have a window of opportunity to 321 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: imagine what the future of medicinal psychedelics could be like 322 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: if we have the wherewithal and the imagination to create 323 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 1: guardrails and to create best practices, and to create a 324 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: use that will feel ethical, sustainable, and safe. I hope 325 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:04,160 Speaker 1: we managed to amplify and show reverence to Indigenous wisdom 326 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: and Indigenous voices who have been using these compounds and 327 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: these tools ritualistically and ceremonially for centuries. I think Indigenous 328 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 1: people in the Americas know a lot about what it 329 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: takes to be resilient, what it takes to survive, what 330 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: it takes to stay whole in communities. People often ask me, 331 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:29,160 Speaker 1: after having been on so many of these retreats, and 332 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: having been sitting with ayahuasca for years, if my depression 333 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: is cured and it's gone, now that I have a 334 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 1: far more stable life and a very happy and fulfilling 335 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: marriage and a stage of my career that I'm excited about, 336 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 1: I've come to see depression somewhat differently. I've come to 337 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: see depression as something of a gift. I think it 338 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: often informs my journalism. I think it allows me to 339 00:21:54,600 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 1: sit with people who are suffering and connect with them 340 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 1: at a very deep and visceral level. I was very 341 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: grateful to have had the tools and the experiences that 342 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,399 Speaker 1: allowed me to pivot from the depths of really dark 343 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 1: and destabilizing depression and just gave me the ability and 344 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: the maneuvering room to shift out of that state and 345 00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:18,959 Speaker 1: fuel whole again. 346 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,640 Speaker 2: That was journalist Ernesto London is the author of Trippy, 347 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 2: The Peril and Promise of Medicinal Psychedelics. This episode was 348 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 2: produced by Rinaldo Lanos Junior and Max Martinez Villa Lobos. 349 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 2: It was edited by Haley Sanchez. It was mixed by 350 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 2: Andy Bosnak, with engineering support by JJ Carubin. The Latino 351 00:22:55,680 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 2: USA team includes Julia Caruso, Jessica Ellis, Victori Estra, Stephanie Lebau, 352 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:06,360 Speaker 2: Andrea Lopez Crusado, Luis Luna, Foni, mar Marquez, Marta Martinez, 353 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 2: Nor Saudi and Nancy Trujiro. Our co executive producer is 354 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 2: Benni Lei Ramirez, I'm your host and co executive producer 355 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 2: Marienno Rosa join us again on our next episode. In 356 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 2: the meantime, look for us on all of your social 357 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 2: media and I'll see you on Instagram. See you later. 358 00:23:22,560 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 2: Note ba yaes Chao. 359 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 4: Latino USA is made possible in part by the Ford Foundation, 360 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 4: working with visionaries on the front lines of social change worldwide, 361 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 4: Drucken Miller Foundation, and the John D. And Catherine T. 362 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 4: MacArthur Foundation.