Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to this episode of the
Speaker 1: Weekly Zeitgeist. These are some of our favorite segments from
Speaker 1: this week, all edited together into one NonStop infotainment la stravaganza. Yeah, So,
Speaker 1: without further ado, here is the Weekly Zeitgeist. Miles. Yes,
Speaker 1: we are thrilled, fortunate, blessed to be joined in our
Speaker 1: third seat by an assistant professor of Technology, Operations and
Speaker 1: Statistics at NYU, where his research focuses on the intersection
Speaker 1: of machine learning and natural language processing, which, of course
Speaker 1: means you know his interests include conversational agents, hierarchical models, yes,
Speaker 1: steep learning, spectral clustering. You guys are all probably finishing
Speaker 1: this sentence with spectral estimation of hidden Markov models, yes, obviously,
Speaker 1: and of course time series analysis. Please welcome, doctor Joel, said,
Speaker 1: Doc doctor Joel.
Speaker 2: E Hi, thank you, Yeah, thank you Jack and Miles
Speaker 2: for having me. It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1: The pleasure to have you.
Speaker 3: We're glad you're here because we got we got a
Speaker 3: lot of questions about a lot of stuff, some some
Speaker 3: to mostly to do with what your area of expertise is.
Speaker 3: Some things I just need a second opinion on, just around.
Speaker 1: The career of Alan Iverson is it? Is it a
Speaker 1: bad joke? If it's been used in like a cable
Speaker 1: I believe that it's a Direct TV commercial is using
Speaker 1: They're like and you, we have our very own AI
Speaker 1: that helps you select shows. And then Alan Iversons sitting
Speaker 1: on the couch with the person. Wait, does that make
Speaker 1: it off limits? Yeah? Yeah, that's that's a real commercial.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to be running with that joke all
Speaker 1: day today because I'm not any better than the comedy
Speaker 1: writers at Direct TV. I can never know how many
Speaker 1: it is. Yeah, but what doctor said, Doc? Is that good?
Speaker 1: Doctor said Doc? Is that a good way to address you?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Sure, I'm very easy about things. Okay, okay, how about doctor? Well,
Speaker 2: I've never been called that. I had some students in
Speaker 2: my class called me jay Wow.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yes, yeah, is it joo so?
Speaker 2: So the pronunciation is so, it's Brazilian Portuguese. That's what
Speaker 2: I'm named after, but I go by I go by
Speaker 2: Joao Jook jasying about it, doctor j even doctor j.
Speaker 1: Amazing? All right? Well yeah, I mean the main thing
Speaker 1: We've brought you here today to ask the big question
Speaker 1: around AI, such as what is that? What is AI
Speaker 1: and we'll follow from there. But you know, questions that
Speaker 1: reveal that we're smart people. Obviously, Hey, Molly, was something
Speaker 1: for your search history that's revealing about who you are?
Speaker 5: Well? Right now, it's uh Crossroads by bone.
Speaker 1: Thuck bone b Yeah, you did point out that the
Speaker 1: actually the first lyrics of the song are bone bone bone, bone, bone, bone, bone, bone, bone, bone, bone.
Speaker 5: Bone, bone, bone, bone bone. I'm also just reading about
Speaker 5: remembering about the video that there's a part where there's
Speaker 5: like a newborn baby that's died.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't know, people love when newborn babies
Speaker 1: die and their music videos and.
Speaker 5: The reader takes them all to heaven.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Wait, isn't there one part where like someone touches the
Speaker 3: dude's eyes and no, they touched the forehead and the
Speaker 3: eyes go black and oh that's right, and that's how
Speaker 3: you know got it?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 1: That to me, I was like, I don't know if
Speaker 1: I want God to get me like that? That seems pretty.
Speaker 5: Look I'll be I'll be real. I won't pretend to
Speaker 5: have looked up something cool. The most recent thing I
Speaker 5: searched for was the pop star Tate McCrae, who has
Speaker 5: a viral TikTok song because I was.
Speaker 1: Like, who is Tate McCray, please help?
Speaker 5: She has a viral TikTok song. Her name is Tate McCray. Okay,
Speaker 5: and she's a Canadian pop star. And so the video
Speaker 5: is set in a hockey rink because it's about oh
Speaker 5: hell yeah, she's getting getting back at her hockey player
Speaker 5: boyfriend who just cheated on her.
Speaker 3: Oh no, wow, I've never seen someone look more like
Speaker 3: their name.
Speaker 5: Yeah, look more like a Canadian pop star named Tate McCray.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Like I was like, if you just showed me, like,
Speaker 3: who's this person, I'm like, that's Tate McCrae, Canadian pop star.
Speaker 5: She's b Olivia Rodrigo.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, but she just had a song.
Speaker 5: That went really viral on TikTok, and so I was
Speaker 5: like a person. The song is called Greedy, and it's
Speaker 5: like she's.
Speaker 1: The video looks like it is a Canadian spoof of
Speaker 1: Hit Me Baby One More Time.
Speaker 5: It does look like that. It's really funny.
Speaker 1: It's like, what if hit Me Baby One More Time
Speaker 1: but Canada?
Speaker 5: Yeah, kind of, it's like if the Grimes video wasn't fascist.
Speaker 5: It's like, I like when there's like a like a sports.
Speaker 3: Oh, like that's that first video she had like at
Speaker 3: the Monster Truck rally or whatever.
Speaker 5: Yeah, where she was like I love Arenas.
Speaker 1: Yo, Wait where did they shoot this video? Is she
Speaker 1: based in La.
Speaker 5: Tate McCrae, Yeah, why recognize?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, this is where. This is where we used
Speaker 3: to play hockey and Bourbank I think is they shoot
Speaker 3: everything there?
Speaker 1: Like Pickwick?
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, the Picwica shirts, the Picckwick Ice skating place.
Speaker 1: I'd have to see if I just went.
Speaker 5: There for the first time. Dang. Yeah, there was a
Speaker 5: big hockey boom in Los Angeles because of the Kings. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 5: you know this, but children of the Valley loved to
Speaker 5: go play hockey in a climate where hockey has never
Speaker 5: been played.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true. It's it's so true.
Speaker 3: And uh who else I remember the other Fate Like
Speaker 3: I think I was like, honestly, I think it was
Speaker 3: one of the first black andies players to ever play
Speaker 3: hockey because this was like in the fucking eighties.
Speaker 1: I was getting on the ice and then Kurt Russell
Speaker 1: and Goldie you.
Speaker 5: Were like, you just improved the game one thousand percent.
Speaker 3: It was we were such a ragtag group. It was
Speaker 3: like us, like some Armenian kids, some Canadian kids whose
Speaker 3: like parents are like trying.
Speaker 1: To the platform. Mighty Ducks, by the way, yeah exactly exactly,
Speaker 1: the blazing group. This coach came back. He had just
Speaker 1: got one of them was girl. We had two Mexican kids,
Speaker 1: Jose and Joel. You know, we were the team. Photo
Speaker 1: looked fucking lit. I don't know what this was a movie.
Speaker 1: Yeah it was, and it was eighties, literally the Mighty Ducks.
Speaker 5: But also it should be a movie about you and
Speaker 5: your ragtag group of valley friends.
Speaker 1: Going to New England and getting realizer hockey.
Speaker 5: Playing against the Rinch kids who have all the hockey gear.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, exactly right Minnesota. They're just like mean Canadians,
Speaker 1: like just people people want to root against Canadian.
Speaker 5: This video is funny because it's like, I like, I've
Speaker 5: never seen anyone do the aesthetics of hockey in a
Speaker 5: pop music video before, and it's like so Canadian obviously,
Speaker 5: but there's a part where she's wearing like a goalie glove.
Speaker 5: It's like she's dressed like sexy, but she's.
Speaker 1: Wearing like pieces of hockey gear.
Speaker 5: It's really funny. Yeah, it's like she's wearing like like
Speaker 5: a crop top and basketball shorts.
Speaker 1: Kind of yeah, there's like this lone old like like
Speaker 1: Gordy Howe hockey glove. She's like holding that. I'm like, yo,
Speaker 1: this is so old. It's like okay, okay, like Jason
Speaker 1: Boorhees's hockey gear is a little Yeah, it's really funny.
Speaker 5: It looks like like the Thanos glove or whatever too.
Speaker 5: It was just like it's like not sexy. And then
Speaker 5: she's driving a zamboni.
Speaker 1: Jamie Jamie, Jamie Loftus's influence is felt across much of
Speaker 1: the pop music landscape.
Speaker 5: Yeah, James, it's very Jamie loft is codded of Tate mcray.
Speaker 1: It's kind of funny, like the last shot being heard
Speaker 1: driving a zamboni, like very like in a very weird like.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was like it's about being confident and sassy
Speaker 5: taking control.
Speaker 1: It's pretty funny. It's funny, and it's like a good.
Speaker 5: It's a pretty good song. I heard it on TikTok
Speaker 5: a million times and was like what is this And
Speaker 5: now I know.
Speaker 1: It's Tate mc graan. Now our listeners know, and that
Speaker 1: is the sort of ship that they were not going
Speaker 1: to hear from us. I can tell you that, bunch.
Speaker 1: So this is a great search history you are bringing.
Speaker 1: I'm bringing pop corner. Well, it's just like usually the things. Okay,
Speaker 1: can I tell you the other thing I looked up?
Speaker 1: This is more on the type of thing I normally
Speaker 1: look up. But I found out that Well maybe whatever,
Speaker 1: I'll never mind. I'll tell you guys later. Oh I
Speaker 1: like that, I do. I want to make this.
Speaker 5: Part go too long. I'll bring it up in the
Speaker 5: jet fuel part.
Speaker 1: Okay, the jet fuel doesn't melt. Nine eleven was last
Speaker 1: week was going on what is What's something you think
Speaker 1: is overrated?
Speaker 6: You know what I think is overrated is celebrity worship
Speaker 6: culture in America.
Speaker 1: It is terrible. What is that? But we gave up
Speaker 1: on God, so we need new gods.
Speaker 6: Live your own life though, right, It's like really, yeah,
Speaker 6: I don't know, I don't get it.
Speaker 1: What aspect? I mean, what what spurred this? And you
Speaker 1: what did you observe? And you're like, we're doing this again. Huh,
Speaker 1: we're bowing at the prostrate at the feet of the Kardashian's.
Speaker 6: The tiny bit personal too Well, we'll get into it later.
Speaker 6: But yeah, I mean, I don't I don't want to
Speaker 6: get into specifics because I don't want to name names.
Speaker 1: But okay, it's for instance.
Speaker 6: It's like, I'm an artist, right, and I'm very much
Speaker 6: an independent artist, and I do sometimes work in mainstream things,
Speaker 6: but a lot of my art that I create is
Speaker 6: very much independently done. I have friends who are like,
Speaker 6: oh my god, I can't come see your show. I
Speaker 6: said that because this weekend I'm going to see Adele
Speaker 6: and A pid a thousand dollars for my ticket. I
Speaker 6: love I love Dell, but I'm like, bitch, does not
Speaker 6: need your thousand dollars. I need to put twenty dollars
Speaker 6: and bring five of your friends and come see my show.
Speaker 6: So it's like that kind of thing, and like, right
Speaker 6: now I'm dealing with this again. I have a future
Speaker 6: film coming out, and we just got told by the
Speaker 6: people were working on the marketing end of They're like, oh,
Speaker 6: well there's like two really big films coming out that weekend, guys.
Speaker 6: So it's like, I come see yours, and I'm like, great,
Speaker 6: Like we need like more of this, like you know,
Speaker 6: glitzy like whatever.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, wait, does the American Nation come out October sixth,
Speaker 3: Is that what I read? Yeah, And we talked about
Speaker 3: We talked about the congestion of the calendar, the film
Speaker 3: calendar because Taylor Swift's movie comes out the thirteenth, and
Speaker 3: that caused like ripple effect with every other studio be like,
Speaker 3: all right, that scary movie we had, we can't do
Speaker 3: it on Friday the thirteenth anymore because that Taylor Swift
Speaker 3: is re entering.
Speaker 1: That that's the second scariest date ten to six three.
Speaker 6: So yeah, So that's another thing that I'm dealing with
Speaker 6: in my film right now. I lost theaters and screens
Speaker 6: because Taylor Swift is one of them. And then there's
Speaker 6: another really huge Bollywood film that's coming on.
Speaker 1: I'm like, God, damn it.
Speaker 6: That's also an audience South Asian, right, So yeah.
Speaker 1: Just god, is it unique to America? Would you say
Speaker 1: the like celebrity worship? Is it more in America than
Speaker 1: other places that you've been.
Speaker 6: Do It's so weird in America too, Like why are
Speaker 6: we obsessed with the queen and like the you know,
Speaker 6: the royalty in the UK, it's so weird, like people
Speaker 6: are having these parties to like watch marriages over I'm
Speaker 6: like what is happening. Yeah, yeah, it's like weird in America,
Speaker 6: but you know, I think the whole everybody does it everywhere, right,
Speaker 6: the whole world.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Or people just getting so caught up because they
Speaker 1: share the same birthday as one of the royals. I
Speaker 1: think that's really just weird behavior for sure. You know,
Speaker 1: Miles is the same birthday as is the same birthday
Speaker 1: as Miles. I thank you, thank you so much, thank
Speaker 1: you so much.
Speaker 3: But yeah, no, And I think, like, but it is
Speaker 3: everywhere too, Like I look, you know, I'm Japanese too,
Speaker 3: and I look in Japan, we have like it's called
Speaker 3: idle culture, Like we literally call these celebrities fucking idols,
Speaker 3: you know, and it's just this, you know, I think, why.
Speaker 6: So much responsibility on these poor little people too?
Speaker 1: I don't know.
Speaker 6: Maybe some of them also just want to make art, guys,
Speaker 6: they just want to They just let them, you know
Speaker 6: what I mean.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like they don't mind it though they
Speaker 1: like they don't. It's like I think there's a trap
Speaker 1: where they like what they want it and pursue it
Speaker 1: with the single mindedness of Captain AHB. But then like
Speaker 1: once they get it, they're like oh my life is over.
Speaker 1: I don't have like a life anymore, right, or like.
Speaker 3: I can't go to the store or every person I
Speaker 3: interact with I have to worry that they're trying to
Speaker 3: get something from me because of the status. But hey,
Speaker 3: it comes with a lot of money to rest your
Speaker 3: sad little head on.
Speaker 1: Usually when you ask them, they're like, yeah, but I
Speaker 1: would not trade it for anything. Yeah, go back to
Speaker 1: being like you no, no, no, no, no no no.
Speaker 1: What is something probably that you take is underrated?
Speaker 4: Okay, Like I said, I'm very bad at self care.
Speaker 4: I just started using I have two dogs and they
Speaker 4: shud a lot. I just started using a rumba. It's like,
Speaker 4: let the robots take over, all right, you're doing it better. Okay,
Speaker 4: this place is so much cleaner that I could ever
Speaker 4: sweep it up.
Speaker 5: Just take my job.
Speaker 1: I don't care.
Speaker 5: I don't care. You can do it robots.
Speaker 1: You know new rumba Like how long go? Did you
Speaker 1: get the room?
Speaker 4: But so my brother gave it to me, so it's
Speaker 4: an old room, but I just started using it. So
Speaker 4: I'm like so excited.
Speaker 7: I'm not going to say anything because it will disappoint you.
Speaker 7: So I'll just let you learn that on your own.
Speaker 5: Wait, what's disappointing about it?
Speaker 7: Just there's a lot of that I can't do that.
Speaker 7: It promises like that it can just like my father. No, really,
Speaker 7: it'll get tangled up and like if you have long
Speaker 7: hair at all, that shit, especially curly hair, will get
Speaker 7: tangled up in it. It'll not You'll have to keep
Speaker 7: cutting through.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 7: There's just a lot of upkeep. And then sometimes it's
Speaker 7: like I don't understand that there's a carpet step. I
Speaker 7: will keep knocking my little room behead against it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I got it for free and I had no expectations, and.
Speaker 7: Oh, see that you're gonna it's awesome.
Speaker 5: I believe.
Speaker 7: I believe I want everyone to have that first week
Speaker 7: that you have the roomba where you're like, it's yeah, possible.
Speaker 1: Everything is possible.
Speaker 5: That's how I feel.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And sometimes it will like start like listening in
Speaker 1: on your conversations, like you'll be like, wait, why is
Speaker 1: the room but in the corner of the room while
Speaker 1: we're like talking about or financial information, and why is
Speaker 1: it we.
Speaker 4: Why why does it have those Boston Dynamic dog legs
Speaker 4: and climbing up the walls?
Speaker 1: Where to get that gun. Yeah, my experience with the room,
Speaker 1: so I like, I have the same question in my
Speaker 1: heart the second you brought up the room. But I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, no, she doesn't know yet.
Speaker 5: I don't know yet.
Speaker 1: Yeah I saw, I saw the light leave.
Speaker 5: Both of our eyes dragged too.
Speaker 4: I thought you'd be so excited and I was like, Oh,
Speaker 4: this is so fun.
Speaker 1: And then but every time someone talks about the room,
Speaker 1: but I'm like, what is it a new purchase? Because
Speaker 1: I think they will solve it. Like I think eventually
Speaker 1: it won't be bad like that, because like there are
Speaker 1: things that does that are pretty cool, and we've.
Speaker 7: We've made artificial hearts and ship like you're telling you
Speaker 7: find the fucking room, but solution, Like I believe in us.
Speaker 4: I love I love that we're talking about it like
Speaker 4: we did it like sports teams. Yeah, of course we
Speaker 4: made artificial hearts. Like, let's get on it, guys.
Speaker 1: Go on. I mean, maybe the most advanced technology and
Speaker 1: robotics is not going to be purchasable at a bed
Speaker 1: bathroom beyond, Like maybe I was looking for it in
Speaker 1: the wrong place, But how.
Speaker 7: Dare I say that about the bath and beyond? What
Speaker 7: the fuck do you think beyond is about.
Speaker 5: Exactly That's what the beyond was.
Speaker 1: The singularity.
Speaker 4: Also feel like I don't care how far technology advances
Speaker 4: until we make a printer that works, you know what
Speaker 4: I mean, Like just print, Just print when I want
Speaker 4: you to print, and that I'll be excited about.
Speaker 7: And that I also don't have to be like, oh,
Speaker 7: I now need to get like new ink or some shit.
Speaker 4: Own or prime or highlight or whatever the fuck the
Speaker 4: preacher needs that my fight.
Speaker 7: Also needs, you know, Like I know I spend that
Speaker 7: at FENTI I don't yeah it things for you.
Speaker 1: I don't yeah zeigang for anybody who's like ever worked
Speaker 1: at like a you know, in the government or something
Speaker 1: like that. Do the powers that be secretly have printers
Speaker 1: that work? Like do they just have Like I feel
Speaker 1: like that there is a lot of like you know,
Speaker 1: designed obsolescence and like designed like fuck ups with printers
Speaker 1: so that like the ink costs more than the printer itself,
Speaker 1: and like that's by design. Bank Man, Big Inc. I
Speaker 1: feel like they've been saying it. Somebody's probably figured out
Speaker 1: the printer, and they just like don't it's not profitable
Speaker 1: for them to sell a printer that is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: this lasts ten years and just works.
Speaker 4: You know, I will say, speaking of like the artificial
Speaker 4: hearts and stuff. I have been in like academic settings
Speaker 4: with professors who are like Nobel Prize winners, and they too,
Speaker 4: who are creating these amazing technologies can only be foiled
Speaker 4: by printers and PowerPoint presentations. That is the only thing
Speaker 4: that can defeat a professor successfully that tracks, that tracks, honestly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, let's take a quick break and we'll
Speaker 1: come back and catch up on some news heading into
Speaker 1: the weekend. We'll be right back and we're back. Shall
Speaker 1: we talk about what do you want to talk about?
Speaker 1: You want to talk about private equity? This was this
Speaker 1: is interesting. I saw a headline that was allow me
Speaker 1: to pull up the exact headline because I was like,
Speaker 1: what is this? It said, can private equity be ellipses nice?
Speaker 1: And I was like, what the fuck is this?
Speaker 3: And it's an interview by enslaved by Megan Greenwell where
Speaker 3: she interviews one of the heads of KKR, which is
Speaker 3: this like private equity firm that just bought the publisher
Speaker 3: Simon and Schuster and KKR is doing something that is
Speaker 3: kind of unheard of in the private equity world, they're
Speaker 3: offering employees of the companies they purchased an ownership.
Speaker 1: Stake, and you're like, what the what, what do you mean?
Speaker 1: What the fuck is this?
Speaker 3: They basically built in a deal where part of like
Speaker 3: the total equity of the company gets put aside for employees,
Speaker 3: and higher earning employees have the option to buy like
Speaker 3: additional equity if they want, but everyone gets a piece
Speaker 3: for free. And the idea here is that when the
Speaker 3: company sells or goes public, everybody gets a little taste
Speaker 3: of something, not just the C suite, which is like normal.
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like tech companies have been doing
Speaker 1: that with like stock like get allowing employees to like
Speaker 1: have stock and stuff like that for a while, but
Speaker 1: then when it comes time to like actually distribute it,
Speaker 1: they always like find a way to Like these things
Speaker 1: are tied to like forty page contracts, the employees aren't
Speaker 1: gonna have time to like read or like you know,
Speaker 1: have their legal teams like pour over. Like some of
Speaker 1: some of the examples is like a trucking company, Like
Speaker 1: these truckers don't have fucking legal teams to like pour over. No,
Speaker 1: make sure they're not getting fucked over.
Speaker 3: But like, so this one their golden goose. Of an
Speaker 3: example is this company called chi overhead Doors, where the
Speaker 3: private equity firm bought them. Everyone had their steak and
Speaker 3: when they sold, an average of one hundred and seventy
Speaker 3: five thousand was like distributed to the to the like
Speaker 3: rank and file employees. Some longtime truck drivers they say
Speaker 3: made as much as eight hundred thousand, and like even
Speaker 3: in speaking to them, like these truck drivers are like, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's cool, Like I made the money. And also when
Speaker 3: you have a stake in it, you actually begin to
Speaker 3: see the inefficiencies in your own business. He's like, I
Speaker 3: used to get forty cents a mile no matter where
Speaker 3: I drove, and I didn't care because more miles meant
Speaker 3: more money. But when I realized that that could affect
Speaker 3: the sale price of the company, then we started actually
Speaker 3: optimizing things. So it's like a very fucking like double
Speaker 3: edged sword here, because overall makes no sense given what
Speaker 3: private equity is about, and like they're bloodblust for just
Speaker 3: chopping down the workforce to just you know, lower in
Speaker 3: the name of lowering costs. But they say the private
Speaker 3: equit say it's win win it says workers get the
Speaker 3: chance for big payout in a voicing company decisions not really,
Speaker 3: and investors get increased staff engagement and retention, which in
Speaker 3: turn creates higher profits. So the optimistic read on this
Speaker 3: is that it's an attempt to trying to make capitalism
Speaker 3: a little more worker friendly. The cynical version is that
Speaker 3: this is just corporate. This is like a corporate whitewashing scheme,
Speaker 3: and it's meant for people to be like, oh, this
Speaker 3: is like this could actually benefit people. In the interview
Speaker 3: the guy from the firm, he's using a lot of
Speaker 3: maybees and might bees when it comes to this becoming
Speaker 3: like a huge payout for people, And it's all nice
Speaker 3: and like a hypothetical context, but the outcomes begin to
Speaker 3: differ based on what happens, even like when the equity
Speaker 3: firm exits the company, like do they go private? Do
Speaker 3: they sell it to another firm? And then what happens there?
Speaker 3: Does that next firm even give a fuck? So I
Speaker 3: think that, you know, it seems like they're one example
Speaker 3: of like the truck drivers making eight hundred k, Like
Speaker 3: the ownership stake incentivized workers to just start cutting down
Speaker 3: on their own rather than the private equity firm coming
Speaker 3: in and doing it. And I think the other thing
Speaker 3: is that it's huge for retention, which seems to be
Speaker 3: a huge cost of when like a new ownership, you
Speaker 3: know team comes in, you're just fucking They're like, man,
Speaker 3: fuck this place, I'm out of here. But not like
Speaker 3: what if we give you a piece and now they
Speaker 3: don't have to cycle through thousands of employees to retain
Speaker 3: and train them. So to me, it seems like a
Speaker 3: very elegant way of like cost savings while appearing to
Speaker 3: be doing the right thing because not everyone's gonna get
Speaker 3: paid out eight hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 1: Like one example, they sort of parade around. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean there are probably versions of capitalism that work right
Speaker 1: now there are none. No, there's not like there's probably
Speaker 1: like a handful of times that but like there are
Speaker 1: millions they stumble upon opportunities for it to work. It's
Speaker 1: called accidental socialism.
Speaker 5: If right, yeah, socialism works, it doesn't work because how
Speaker 5: you have to explain somebody for it to exist, right,
Speaker 5: So somebody yet somebody has to get fucked for.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah function. The other thing that there's.
Speaker 5: No it existing without somebody getting fucked.
Speaker 3: The like in this interview too, when like, you know,
Speaker 3: very pointedly, this journalist is asking like why don't you
Speaker 3: just raise wages like when you come in, like how
Speaker 3: about that to keep employees?
Speaker 1: Like what what does that work? And then they use
Speaker 1: this I gotta like, we wouldn't be writing this article
Speaker 1: if we did that. Probably what they're.
Speaker 5: I know, Megan Greenwell shout out Megan Greenwell.
Speaker 1: Yeah is that who wrote this?
Speaker 5: Yeah, and she understood, she's got she knows.
Speaker 3: She's writing a book right now about how private equity
Speaker 3: Fox workers. Like, so she didn't go into this interview
Speaker 3: being like this is going to be great, Like it's
Speaker 3: there's a lot of really pointed questions.
Speaker 1: But yeah, Kim Stanley Robinson like talks about how the
Speaker 1: like profit inherently, like profit is the only goal of
Speaker 1: any of this shit, and profit inherently is exploitive cause
Speaker 1: it's like getting more than your fair share. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: the point of profit. That's what profit means.
Speaker 3: So in this they asked like why don't you just
Speaker 3: like raise the salary, like like that's the easy way
Speaker 3: to go, And he says like, look, you know, we
Speaker 3: we manage all kinds of people's money. We including teachers,
Speaker 3: teachers retirement funds. We also manage wealthy people's money. So
Speaker 3: I don't want a cherry pick, but I'm just giving
Speaker 3: you a flavor for why this is so tricky. If
Speaker 3: you're managing teachers pension money and you want to just
Speaker 3: raise everyone's salary that is on the backs of the teachers,
Speaker 3: which is not ethical and it's not our money, and
Speaker 3: that's like the fucking rationality used to just hide behind that.
Speaker 3: You be like, then the tea, that's the tea, it's
Speaker 3: the teachers.
Speaker 1: We're actually doing it for the teachers of America.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, Like like you come away from this
Speaker 3: interview is still kind of being like okay, like this
Speaker 3: seems not like a win win. It seems like a
Speaker 3: win maybe win if the environmental factors are precisely correct.
Speaker 5: It's like what they're giving you a cut of a
Speaker 5: company that they're about to run into the ground.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but they say if if you guys and figure
Speaker 1: out how to save money, even better, because then we
Speaker 1: don't have to be we don't have to just start
Speaker 1: doing layoffs.
Speaker 5: Like what's happening in Hollywood right now too. It's like
Speaker 5: the thing that was happening in publishing where they run
Speaker 5: all the big companies, like your old school publishers like
Speaker 5: Simon and Schuster into the ground.
Speaker 1: And then the company that just bought some Yeah okay,
Speaker 1: you're talking to the people who just bought them from.
Speaker 1: I think like it was like a carve out from
Speaker 1: Paramount or something. Yeah. So yeah, they know how to plan.
Speaker 5: Their plan is to is to extract profits and get
Speaker 5: the fuck out of there. It's all and run all
Speaker 5: the way down.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, and it's wild too because when this guy
Speaker 3: says like we're not just here just purely for profits,
Speaker 3: I'm like, this is then you wouldn't be running a
Speaker 3: fucking private equity firm, right, Like so I love that,
Speaker 3: like the words come out this way. But yeah, it
Speaker 3: is a very it's an interesting, I think scheme from
Speaker 3: private equity to try and you know, save money in
Speaker 3: their own ways on employee retention while trying to incentivize
Speaker 3: people to like stick around as long as possible.
Speaker 1: Before the inevitable.
Speaker 3: Because then they say stuff like we wouldn't just sell
Speaker 3: it to like another company who like doesn't have the
Speaker 3: same ethos. It's like, really, if the fucking money is right,
Speaker 3: then then what right. I don't think that's the case.
Speaker 1: This is funny that like the global corporate media will
Speaker 1: like find these examples where like if you look at
Speaker 1: it from a certain angle, it looks like, hey, this
Speaker 1: thing's working and it's really like helping out the world.
Speaker 5: Yeah, anytime they're like, actually, check out this cool.
Speaker 1: Thing, it's like, really, no, they're doing something different.
Speaker 5: So I'm making March Simpson noises.
Speaker 1: My stomach starts making March Simpson noises. All right, let's
Speaker 1: cheer yourselves up by talking about how it continues to
Speaker 1: just keep raining shit on Rudy Giuliani. We've been hearing
Speaker 1: for a while that he's broke, can't pay his legal bills,
Speaker 1: and now his lawyers, the people who are supposed to
Speaker 1: be representing him, are suing him for one point three
Speaker 1: six million dollars in unpaid legal fees. He racked up
Speaker 1: fees and expenses totally more than one point five million dollars,
Speaker 1: but he only managed to pay two hundred and fourteen
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. And his defense is just like it's like
Speaker 1: really expensive, man, what the fuck cost so much? Are
Speaker 1: you serious?
Speaker 2: Dude?
Speaker 1: No way, no way, it's this high. Yeah, no, it is,
Speaker 1: by the way, so you know, he himself is a lawyer,
Speaker 1: and while he was representing Trump, he reportedly charged twenty
Speaker 1: thousand dollars a day. Okay, so you know he's I
Speaker 1: like that, he really is the way, Rudy Juliani says,
Speaker 1: it's a real shame when lawyers do things like this,
Speaker 1: And all I will say is that their bill is
Speaker 1: way in excess to anything approaching legitimate fees. Sure, sure, sure.
Speaker 1: The lawyer that he's stiffed who is now suing him
Speaker 1: is one of his like oldest best friends. His friendship
Speaker 1: Giuliani dates back to the seventies when they were both
Speaker 1: prosecutors in the US Attorney's Office in the Southern District
Speaker 1: of New York. Wow, I wonder what the how that
Speaker 1: friendship started, Like where like if this his friend like
Speaker 1: Robert Costel and now is like look at you now, Rudy,
Speaker 1: look at you, Look at you. He got nothing, You
Speaker 1: got nothing.
Speaker 3: I mean we've seen how recently it's been all hands
Speaker 3: on deck to try and get him more money, because
Speaker 3: it felt like he was going to Trump and be
Speaker 3: like I got bills, dude, and like you need to
Speaker 3: help me because like I know a lot of shit.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: And then recently there was a fucking one hundred thousand
Speaker 3: dollars a plate fundraising dinner for Rudy Giuliani that.
Speaker 1: Trump posted specifically. So yeah, love, I have a feeling
Speaker 1: I wonder he probably was able to pay a lot
Speaker 1: of that off. But anyway, who knows, who knows? He's
Speaker 1: too busy.
Speaker 5: Being Yeah, I like when the scammers get scammed, get yeah,
Speaker 5: taken in for their.
Speaker 1: Scam their own, by their own, the scammers.
Speaker 5: Scam each other, yeah, or you're just like none of
Speaker 5: these people have any loyalty to anyone but themselves. Of
Speaker 5: course they're all gonna like fuck each other over at
Speaker 5: the end and turn on each other. That to me
Speaker 5: seemed like the lynchpin of the whole Trump thing was
Speaker 5: like everyone he works everyone, he fucks everyone, but it's
Speaker 5: like everyone he works with is like somebody who would
Speaker 5: sell him out in a minute.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and vice versa.
Speaker 5: Yeah, like they're all that's the best part when they
Speaker 5: all turn on each other at the end.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm waiting to see how the dominoes fall, because
Speaker 3: it's every time we hear about this stuff happening in
Speaker 3: like Georgia or like Florida. There's more people who are like, actually,
Speaker 3: they do not want to have the same defense team
Speaker 3: as Trump now and realize that like they were being
Speaker 3: like nudged to do what was the best for Trump
Speaker 3: and not for them to be free.
Speaker 1: You know, you know how these people like sell themselves
Speaker 1: as like brilliant businessmen, and people are like, well, if
Speaker 1: he could make a billion dollars, like, surely he could
Speaker 1: run the country. Like, yeah, they're sc The thing that
Speaker 1: they all have in common that they're good at is
Speaker 1: the same skill displayed by if you've ever like been
Speaker 1: out to dinner with a group in like high school
Speaker 1: and everyone suddenly like, nah, I don't I don't have
Speaker 1: enough money to pay this, Like what are you talking about?
Speaker 1: Like you know, you know, like arguing over the bill
Speaker 1: like that's before a homecoming dance. That is all that
Speaker 1: is their skill. They were just the most stubborn of
Speaker 1: the people who refused to pay for whatever they ordered
Speaker 1: and are like, no, that's you see right here on
Speaker 1: the menu it says twelve ninety nine, and so I
Speaker 1: put in twelve dollars and it's like, well we all
Speaker 1: also had drinks and no.
Speaker 5: No, no, yeah, we all got those big Coca colas
Speaker 5: because we're in high school.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly through that like weird brown plastic cup that
Speaker 1: was had the logo blast apps. You ordered the apps,
Speaker 1: you demand, We ordered the You.
Speaker 5: Ordered the the mojo potatoes at Shakey's where we're having
Speaker 5: our dinner.
Speaker 1: Drove someone here, so like that costs gas money? Oh man,
Speaker 1: Just we'll argue until you're too exhausted to have I
Speaker 1: remember we Molly, you'll appreciate this. Before a dance, we
Speaker 1: went to miss Ellie's right there across from the Gilain
Speaker 1: Maxwell in and out Michelli's. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but
Speaker 1: that's how we say. That's how we always say to school,
Speaker 1: We're going to miss Ellie's with the one seed.
Speaker 5: That's why I would always be like, oh I say that,
Speaker 5: I say the accurate Italian yeah than me.
Speaker 1: But so we went and I remember one guy, just
Speaker 1: one dude straight up just fucking just deny that they
Speaker 1: ordered the food that you're like.
Speaker 5: The that's so funny.
Speaker 1: It was like, you know what, yeah.
Speaker 5: I would have to respect that because you're like friends.
Speaker 5: Well he's like, well where is it?
Speaker 1: Then? Now shout out to my friends from you know
Speaker 1: what they do now, and we all, every single one
Speaker 1: of us was just like, nah, huh huh, I don't
Speaker 1: give a fuck. I'm not just gas grade apple.
Speaker 3: Well it wasn't me that it was your idea. We
Speaker 3: came here because you said, yeah, it is not me.
Speaker 3: Well she's not, so we can't get the discount.
Speaker 5: Have you been Michelle's No, Oh my god, it's amazing.
Speaker 5: There's one in Hollywood too. It's like the waiters also sing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh hell yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 5: It's like a piano bar, and your waiter will be
Speaker 5: like your waiters, like here's your food, and then they
Speaker 5: like turn around and take a microphone and sing memory
Speaker 5: from Cats.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the food fantastically subpar so mad, you're so mad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the experience, you know, when.
Speaker 3: You walk in, you're like, this food is not tasting great,
Speaker 3: but it will taste like Italian food as we know
Speaker 3: it by the American definition.
Speaker 5: I love those like mid Italian restaurants from the fifties.
Speaker 1: M hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 5: But it's also like they.
Speaker 1: Have after somebody right.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like a fake balcony inside.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like two inches deep.
Speaker 5: Oh we should go, yeah, take you guys there. Yeah,
Speaker 5: it's great because it's like a karaoke thing, but you
Speaker 5: don't have to do karaoke.
Speaker 1: Is like.
Speaker 5: Waters are just singing. It's so weird. I love it, very.
Speaker 1: Sea, Miles, where you get your taste for the old country. Yeah,
Speaker 1: from Miss Ellis, as we would always incorrectly say in
Speaker 1: my elementary school. And we will. We just can't. We
Speaker 1: can't let that pronunciation go. That guy who was duck
Speaker 1: in the bill, he went on to have a successful
Speaker 1: like chain of daycare centers. Yeah, my god, profit king,
Speaker 1: you know, he knows how profit man. Yeah, somebody's got it.
Speaker 5: Somebody's got to get shorted. In that case, it was you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And all right, let's take a quick break
Speaker 1: and come back and talk about something that we're all,
Speaker 1: every single one of us. Every If you're hearing my
Speaker 1: voice and you don't and you're not in the c
Speaker 1: suite at Lockheed Martin, you got shorted on this ship.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back and we're back. And Miles, I mean,
Speaker 1: we we talk a lot about how we what we
Speaker 1: think this future is going to look like, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I share the name with Miles Dyson him.
Speaker 3: I started a little thing called the sky Net, you know,
Speaker 3: that keeps me up all night.
Speaker 1: Well, but seriousness, Hey he went out of here, miles,
Speaker 1: you know, I did. I did.
Speaker 3: Look, it's all about altruism, you know at the end.
Speaker 3: But like I think for me personally, right, so much
Speaker 3: of my so much of my understanding of science is
Speaker 3: derived from film and television because I'm American and I
Speaker 3: think with like with Ai. I think whenever I would
Speaker 3: think of like, oh my god, it's like, you don't
Speaker 3: know where this thing's gonna go. The place I think
Speaker 3: it's gonna go is sky Net from Terminator.
Speaker 1: I just see the shot from the sky of all
Speaker 1: the missiles tit being launched, like coming down. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to have a nice day at the park with my kids.
Speaker 1: I'm watching through a chain link, and next ladies over
Speaker 1: there shaking the chain link, skeletons.
Speaker 3: Rattling the kids over there, get her out of here.
Speaker 3: But I'm you know, first of all, it's sort of
Speaker 3: twofold question, how how far off base is the idea
Speaker 3: of like how many jumps am I making in my
Speaker 3: brain to be like Chad GBT next stop sky Net?
Speaker 3: And and then also because of that, what are all
Speaker 3: of the ways that people like me are not considering
Speaker 3: what those actual, real tangible effects will be of. And
Speaker 3: I don't want to be like the most cynical version,
Speaker 3: but you know, if we aren't careful and we have
Speaker 3: very sort of individualistic or profit minded sort of motivations
Speaker 3: to develop this kind of technology, like what does that
Speaker 3: worst case sort of look or not worst case? But
Speaker 3: what are the ways I'm actually not thinking of because
Speaker 3: I'm too busy thinking about T one thousands, right.
Speaker 1: Like I just to like add on to that when
Speaker 1: when I think about the computer revolution, like for decades
Speaker 1: it was these people in San Francisco talking about how
Speaker 1: the future was going to be completely different and done
Speaker 1: on computers or something called the Internet, and we were
Speaker 1: just down here looking at a computer that was like
Speaker 1: green dots, like not that good of a screen display.
Speaker 1: And by the time it like filtered down to us
Speaker 1: and the world does look totally different, it's like, well, shit,
Speaker 1: like that's that turns out that was a big deal.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I feel like I want to be constantly
Speaker 1: like on our show, just asking me a question like
Speaker 1: where is this actually taking us? Because some in the past,
Speaker 1: I feel like it's been hard to predict and when
Speaker 1: it did come it wasn't exactly what the you know,
Speaker 1: tech oracles said it was going to be, and it
Speaker 1: was like unexpected and weird and beautiful and banal and
Speaker 1: weird ways. And so I'm curious to hear your thoughts
Speaker 1: on like, once this technology reaches the level of consumers,
Speaker 1: like of just your average ordinary person who's like not
Speaker 1: teaching machine learning at m YU, Like, what what is
Speaker 1: it going to look like? But first but obviously first kind,
Speaker 1: but first guy, I.
Speaker 2: Think it's kind of okay. So, so I think the
Speaker 2: idea of worrying about some version of you know, this
Speaker 2: technology going out of control, right is there's so many
Speaker 2: checks and balances of ways in which we are thinking
Speaker 2: about and the technology is sort of moving forward that
Speaker 2: kind of you know, the idea of something emergent and
Speaker 2: then not only as an emergent, but it's going to
Speaker 2: take over and try to destroy civilization, right.
Speaker 3: And also send and also send cybernetic organisms into the
Speaker 3: past to ensure that those people do not grow up
Speaker 3: to take arms against kind of like John Connor and.
Speaker 2: His yeah, yeah, So I'm a firm believer that in
Speaker 2: being able to send people to the future, But I
Speaker 2: still don't think that we're not going to be able
Speaker 2: to send people in the past. So that's that's maybe
Speaker 2: one problem.
Speaker 1: But that's just like your opinion, man, all right, is
Speaker 1: going to happen. And by the way, i'm the Doc
Speaker 1: Brown character, I'm going to be friend a young child.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, exactly. Marty and Doc been friends like probably
Speaker 1: like it seems like eight years, so like when Marty
Speaker 1: was like nine years old, they became best friends. Anyways,
Speaker 1: sorry about that forgetting side tracks so well.
Speaker 2: So I think, you know, so what I'm what I'm
Speaker 2: thinking about when we think about this kind of technology
Speaker 2: and how it could be, how the technology itself could
Speaker 2: go wrong. I don't think that that kind of integration
Speaker 2: is likely, right. I think that the concept of you know,
Speaker 2: the singularity, it's so far out, and I don't think
Speaker 2: that we have a good ability or understanding of like consciousness.
Speaker 2: And I'd also don't think we have a really good
Speaker 2: understanding of like, Okay, you know, why would you know
Speaker 2: these large language models start, you know, trying to harm us.
Speaker 2: So there's all those steps and jumps and leaps and
Speaker 2: all the intermediate pieces that just seems so incredibly unlikely. Now,
Speaker 2: I know that a lot of the ai AGI people
Speaker 2: who worry, they worry is, oh, well, we got to
Speaker 2: worry about this tail race, right, and a human level
Speaker 2: extinction event is worth worrying about. You and some people
Speaker 2: worrying about that is probably not a bad thing. But
Speaker 2: I just think it's very unlikely for the reasons of
Speaker 2: those of all the chain that would need to happen.
Speaker 2: And we're not very good at robots. Also, robots are
Speaker 2: you know, actually much further away.
Speaker 1: But that is one Okay, well we'll talk about it,
Speaker 1: but put a pin in that because I want to
Speaker 1: come back to that, to bad robots, to bad robots,
Speaker 1: and how easy I just want to brag about how
Speaker 1: easy it would be for me to beat one up.
Speaker 1: But uh, all those dynamics, Yeah yeah, I got money
Speaker 1: on you in that fight.
Speaker 2: But the thing that I do want to point out
Speaker 2: is that you know the concept of starting to build
Speaker 2: some of these rules into the large language models, you know,
Speaker 2: to try to say, okay, well, you know, try to
Speaker 2: be benign, don't do harm. That's a really super good idea, right,
Speaker 2: And I think that you know, even if you don't
Speaker 2: believe in sky Net, actually believing in trying to incorporate
Speaker 2: responsibility into the large language models. I think that is
Speaker 2: something that's very important moving into some of the dangers though,
Speaker 2: Like I think actually large language models and people like
Speaker 2: Opening Eye was actually worried about this in one of
Speaker 2: its first iterations of GPT was the ability for the
Speaker 2: large language models to create misinformation and disinformation. And you know,
Speaker 2: I think that that's a really bad use of the
Speaker 2: technology and very very potentially harmful.
Speaker 1: And it already seems to be what it's being used for.
Speaker 1: Like the technology, like the ways that like companies are
Speaker 1: trying to replace journalism with it, or you know, clickbait
Speaker 1: article like just generate tons of clickbait articles that are
Speaker 1: like targeted at people, is like it it feels like
Speaker 1: it's already training in that in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Unfortunately, I think you're right like that that there
Speaker 2: is this that there is this bad use of the
Speaker 2: technology where it's like, oh, let's make this so that
Speaker 2: it could be as persuasive as possible. You know, there's
Speaker 2: obviously been a ton of research in marketing on like
Speaker 2: figuring out, Okay, how do we you know, position this
Speaker 2: product so that it's you know, you're more likely to
Speaker 2: buy it, right, and the same thing can be now
Speaker 2: applied to language of like, Okay, you know, for Jack O'Brien,
Speaker 2: how am I going to make this tailored advertisement just
Speaker 2: for him to be able to do to make him
Speaker 2: buy this particular product that I'm selling, or to make
Speaker 2: him not vote?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, you know those kind of I mean, I
Speaker 2: think that this is scary, and I think that this
Speaker 2: is in the now right, which you know, is something
Speaker 2: that in some sense is going to be hard to
Speaker 2: like really stop people from using this technology in that
Speaker 2: direction without things like legislation. You know, there's just some
Speaker 2: some components that need you know, more legislation, and I
Speaker 2: think that's going to be hard to do but probably necessary.
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah.
Speaker 3: I could even see, like just even in politics, you
Speaker 3: can be like, Okay, I need to actually figure out
Speaker 3: the best campaign plan for this very specific demographic that
Speaker 3: lives in this part of this state and for sure,
Speaker 3: and then just imagining what happens. But I guess is
Speaker 3: that also part of the slippery slope is that like
Speaker 3: the reliance sort of gives way to like sort of
Speaker 3: this like thing where it's like this actually is gonna
Speaker 3: whatever this says is the solution to whatever problem. We
Speaker 3: have and like just kind of throwing our hands up
Speaker 3: and all just becoming totally reliant. I mean, i'd imagine
Speaker 3: that's also seems like a place where we could easily
Speaker 3: sort of slip into a problem where it's like, yeah,
Speaker 3: the chatbot may give us this answer.
Speaker 2: But well, or or that people are starting to make
Speaker 2: like very homogeneous decisions and choices right where you would make,
Speaker 2: you know, many different choices because you already have a
Speaker 2: template that's been given to you by you know this AI.
Speaker 2: You're like, oh, okay, well, you know, I'm just going
Speaker 2: to follow you know, this choice or this decision that
Speaker 2: it's going to make for me and not you know,
Speaker 2: do one of the thousand different alternatives right, right, And
Speaker 2: if you do that, I do that. Jack does that, right,
Speaker 2: Like all of a sudden, we would have done vastly
Speaker 2: different choices, But now we have this sort of weird,
Speaker 2: sort of centering effect where all of us are actually
Speaker 2: making much less, you know, very choices in our decision making, right,
Speaker 2: which has I mean, it does possess real risk. I
Speaker 2: mean imagine applying this to resume screen right, where you
Speaker 2: can imagine the same type of problem, right, and those
Speaker 2: are there's just so many scenarios that you can think
Speaker 2: of where you know, we need to take care, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: and this is a good time to think about that.
Speaker 1: Right, And we're, yeah, we're turning our free will over
Speaker 1: to the care of algorithms and you know, the phones,
Speaker 1: like the skinner boxes in our hands that we're carrying around,
Speaker 1: and like that feels like a thing that's already happening.
Speaker 1: AI might just make it a little bit more effective
Speaker 1: and like quicker to respond and like, but yeah, it
Speaker 1: feels like a lot of the concerns over AI that
Speaker 1: makes the most sense to me are the ones that
Speaker 1: are already happening. And yeah, just in like to kind
Speaker 1: of tip my head a little bit, like the in
Speaker 1: doing a lot of research on the kind of overall
Speaker 1: general intelligence concerns that we've been talking about, the ones
Speaker 1: where it like takes over and evades human control because
Speaker 1: it wants to you know, wants to defeat humans, I
Speaker 1: was surprised how full of shit those seem to be. Like,
Speaker 1: for instance, the one story that got passed around a
Speaker 1: lot last year where a drug like during a military
Speaker 1: exercise and AI was being told not to like take
Speaker 1: out human targets by its human operator, and so the
Speaker 1: AI made the decision to kill the operator so that
Speaker 1: it could then just like go rogue and start killing
Speaker 1: whatever it wanted to. And that story, like I passed
Speaker 1: around a lot. I think we've even like referenced it
Speaker 1: on this show, and it's not true. First of all,
Speaker 1: I think when it first got passed around, people were like,
Speaker 1: it actually killed someone man, and it was it was
Speaker 1: just a hypothetical exercise first of all, like just in
Speaker 1: the story like as it was being passed around. And
Speaker 1: second of all, it was then debunked, like the person
Speaker 1: who said that it happened in the exercise later came
Speaker 1: out and was like that actually, like that didn't happen.
Speaker 1: But it seems like there is a real interest and
Speaker 1: real incentive on behalf of the people who are like
Speaker 1: set up to make money off of these ais to
Speaker 1: like make them seem like they have this like godlike
Speaker 1: reasoning power. There's this other story about where like they
Speaker 1: were testing the I think it was GPT four to
Speaker 1: see like like during the alignment testing. Alignment testing is
Speaker 1: like trying to make sure that the AI's goals are
Speaker 1: aligned with humanities and like making humans more happy and
Speaker 1: they like ran a test to see where the GPT
Speaker 1: four was basically like, I can't solve the capture, but
Speaker 1: what I'm going to do is I'm going to reach
Speaker 1: out to a task rabbit and hire a task rabbit
Speaker 1: to solve the capture for me. And the GPT four
Speaker 1: made up a li and said that he was visually
Speaker 1: impaired and that's why he needed the task grabbit to
Speaker 1: do that. And again it's like one of those stories
Speaker 1: like it feels creepy and it gives you goosebumps, and
Speaker 1: again it's not true. It's like they were the GPT
Speaker 1: was being prompted by a human, Like it's very similar
Speaker 1: to the self driving car myth, like that that self
Speaker 1: driving car viral video that Elon Musk put out, where
Speaker 1: it was being prompted by a human and like pre programmed,
Speaker 1: and like that, there were all these ways that the
Speaker 1: human agency involved with the kind of clever task that
Speaker 1: we're worried about this thing having done. We're just like
Speaker 1: taken out. We're just edited out so that they could
Speaker 1: tell a story where it seemed like the GPT, for
Speaker 1: which is like what powers chat GPT that like it
Speaker 1: was doing something evil, right, and it's like so it's
Speaker 1: I get how these stories get out there and become
Speaker 1: like because they're they're the version of AI that we've
Speaker 1: been preparing for because like and watching Terminator. But it's
Speaker 1: surprising to me how much like Sam Altman, the head
Speaker 1: of Open AI, like just leans into that shit and
Speaker 1: is like he like he in an interview with like
Speaker 1: the New Yorker, he was like, Yeah, I like keep
Speaker 1: a Sinai capsule on me and like all these weapons
Speaker 1: and like a gas mask from the Israeli military in
Speaker 1: case like an AI takeover happens. And it's like, what,
Speaker 1: like you, of all people should know that that is
Speaker 1: complete bullshit, but it and it totally like takes the
Speaker 1: eye off the ball, like how the actual dangers that
Speaker 1: AI poses, which is that it's going to just like
Speaker 1: flood the zone with shit, like it's going to keep
Speaker 1: making the Internet and phones like more and more unusable
Speaker 1: but also more and more like difficult to like tear
Speaker 1: ourselves away from. Like I feel like we've already lost
Speaker 1: the alignment battle in the sense that like we've already
Speaker 1: lost any way in which our technology that is supposed
Speaker 1: to like serve us and make our lives better and
Speaker 1: enrich our happiness, like are doing that, Like they they
Speaker 1: stop doing that a long time ago. Like that's why
Speaker 1: I always like say that the more interesting question, like
Speaker 1: with the questions that were being asked in philosophy classes
Speaker 1: in the early two thousands about like singularity and like
Speaker 1: suddenly this thing spins off and is we don't realize
Speaker 1: we're no longer being served and like we're like twenty
Speaker 1: steps behind, like that happened with capitalism a long time ago.
Speaker 1: Like that we're like capitalism is so far beyond and
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, we're no longer serving ourselves and
Speaker 1: serving fellow humanity. We're like serving this idea of this
Speaker 1: market that is just you know, repeatedly making decisions to
Speaker 1: make itself more efficient, take the friction out of like
Speaker 1: our consumption behavior. And yeah, I think AI is going
Speaker 1: to definitely be a tool in that. But like that
Speaker 1: is the ultimate battle that we're already losing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I completely agree with you on the
Speaker 2: on the front of like your phones are I mean,
Speaker 2: the company is are trying to maximize their profits, which
Speaker 2: mean you know, possibly you being on your phone at
Speaker 2: the disservice of doing something else, like going outdoors and
Speaker 2: doing exercise right where you know, doing something social. I
Speaker 2: I do see on the other hand, that like you know,
Speaker 2: maybe hey, I can have positive effects right where you know,
Speaker 2: take tutoring for an example, or public health, where we
Speaker 2: take the phone and take the technology and use it
Speaker 2: for benefit, like providing information about public health by helping
Speaker 2: students who don't have the ability to have a tutor
Speaker 2: have a tutor, right, Like all of these kind of
Speaker 2: things where let's take advantage of the fact that you know,
Speaker 2: the majority of the world has phones, right and try
Speaker 2: to use that technology for you know, a good positive
Speaker 2: societal benefit. But like any tool in it, it has
Speaker 2: usage that are both good and bad. And I do think, like,
Speaker 2: you know, there's gonna be a lot of uses of
Speaker 2: this technology that are not necessarily in the best interests
Speaker 2: of humanity or individual people.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: So it's like really like sort of the real X
Speaker 3: factor is how the technology is being deployed and for
Speaker 3: what purpose, not that the technology in and of itself
Speaker 3: is like this runaway train that we're trying to rein in.
Speaker 3: It's that, yeah, if you do phone scams, you might
Speaker 3: come up with better you know, like both like voice
Speaker 3: models to get this. Rather than doing one call per hour,
Speaker 3: you can do a thousand calls in one hour running
Speaker 3: the same script and same scam on people. Or to
Speaker 3: your point about how do you persuade Jack O'Brien to
Speaker 3: not vote or to buy X product? Then it's all
Speaker 3: going in that direction versus the things like how can
Speaker 3: we optimize like the ability of a person to learn
Speaker 3: if they're in an environment that typically isn't one where
Speaker 3: people have access to information or for the public health use.
Speaker 3: And that's why, like I think in the end, because
Speaker 3: we always see like like, yeah, this thing could be
Speaker 3: used for good, and it's almost every example is like yeah,
Speaker 3: and it just made two guys three billion dollars in
Speaker 3: two cents, and that's what happened with that, And now
Speaker 3: we all don't know if videos we see on Instagram
Speaker 3: are real anymore.
Speaker 1: Thanks. Yeah, Yeah, it's not. Yeah, it's not inherently a
Speaker 1: bad technology. It's that the system as is currently constituted,
Speaker 1: favors scams. Like that's why we have a scam artist
Speaker 1: as like our most recent president before this one and
Speaker 1: probably could be future president again, like because that is
Speaker 1: what our current system is designed for. And like it
Speaker 1: is just scamming people for money. That's why when blockchain
Speaker 1: technology like for has its like infant baby steps, it
Speaker 1: immediately becomes a thing that people use to scam one
Speaker 1: another because that is the software of our current society.
Speaker 1: So yeah, there are like tons of amazing possibilities with AI.
Speaker 1: I don't think we find them in the United States,
Speaker 1: like applying the AI tools to our current software. I
Speaker 1: would love for there to be a version of the
Speaker 1: future where AI is so smart and efficient that it
Speaker 1: changes that paradigm somehow and change it so that our
Speaker 1: software that our society runs on is no longer scams.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, I mean there is a future where you know,
Speaker 2: AI starts to do a lot of tasks for us.
Speaker 2: You know, I think that there's starting to be, you know,
Speaker 2: depending it's mostly in Europe now, but also here it
Speaker 2: talks about like universal basic income. It's it's kind of
Speaker 2: I don't think that that's going to be the case.
Speaker 2: I don't think that in the US anybody has an
Speaker 2: appetite for that. Maybe in twenty thirty years, but you know,
Speaker 2: I do think that, you know, the there are certain
Speaker 2: things about my job right as a professor, about like
Speaker 2: writing and certain other components right where you know, here's
Speaker 2: some things where AI can help, right, And you know,
Speaker 2: today I use it as a tool to make me
Speaker 2: more efficient, and like, you know, okay, I want to
Speaker 2: have an editor look at this. Okay, Well you know
Speaker 2: it's not going to do as good as a real editor,
Speaker 2: but maybe as a cop as a you know, bad
Speaker 2: copy editor. Yeah it's good, you know, Like but you know,
Speaker 2: I mean I've been writing papers for a while. You know,
Speaker 2: when the undergraduates write the paper, it does an even
Speaker 2: better job, right because they have more room for growth, right,
Speaker 2: And and so I think that, you know, yeah, I
Speaker 2: think that on a micro level, these tools are now
Speaker 2: being used. I think that you know, Russian spambots have
Speaker 2: been most likely using large language model technology before chat
Speaker 2: GPT right, right, And so you know, I mean there
Speaker 2: are some ways that I think we're going in a
Speaker 2: positive and good direction, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Now, now it's like now that you say that, I'm thinking,
Speaker 3: I'm like we thought Cambridge Analytico is bad, and it's
Speaker 3: like what happens now when we like turn it up
Speaker 3: to one thousand with this kind of thing where it's like, yeah,
Speaker 3: here are all these voter files now like really figure
Speaker 3: out how to suppress a vote or get to sway people.
Speaker 3: And yeah, I again, it does feel like one of
Speaker 3: these things where in the right hands, right, we can
Speaker 3: create a world where people don't have to toil because
Speaker 3: we're able to automate those things. But then the next
Speaker 3: question becomes, how do we off ramp our culture of
Speaker 3: greed and wealth hoarding and concentrating all of our wealth
Speaker 3: into a way to say, like, well, we actually need
Speaker 3: to spread this out that way everyone can have their
Speaker 3: needs met materially, because our economy kind of runs on
Speaker 3: its own in certain sectors. Obviously other ones need real
Speaker 3: like human labor and things like that. But yeah, that's
Speaker 3: where you begin to see like, Okay, that's the fork
Speaker 3: in the road. Can we make that? Do we take
Speaker 3: the right path.
Speaker 1: Or does it turn into you know, just like some
Speaker 1: very half asked version where like only a fraction of
Speaker 1: the people that need like universal basic income are receiving it,
Speaker 1: while you know, we read more articles about why we
Speaker 1: don't see Van Vocht in Hollywood anymore. As Jack pointed
Speaker 1: out that yeah.
Speaker 3: Terribly worded thing about Vince Vaughan that AI could not
Speaker 3: get right.
Speaker 1: He couldn't get his name right, So like Van Vought,
Speaker 1: the one. So the sci fi dystopia that seems like
Speaker 1: not not necessarily dystopia, but the sci fi future that
Speaker 1: seems like it's most close at hand, and like given
Speaker 1: you know, doing a weekend's worth research on like where
Speaker 1: where this is and like where all the top thinkers
Speaker 1: think we're headed. The thing that makes that seems the
Speaker 1: closest reality to me is the movie Her, Like Her
Speaker 1: is kind of already here. There's already these applications that
Speaker 1: use chat GPT and you know GPT four two again,
Speaker 1: Like it really seems to me like and I don't
Speaker 1: necessarily mean this like in a dismissive way. This is
Speaker 1: probably you know, a good description of most jobs. Like that.
Speaker 1: The thing that David Fincher I was like listening to
Speaker 1: a podcast where they talked about how David Fincher says,
Speaker 1: like words are only ever spoken in his movies by
Speaker 1: characters in order to lie, because like that's how humans
Speaker 1: actually use language, is just to like find different ways
Speaker 1: to like lie about who they are, what they're you know,
Speaker 1: approaches to things. And like I think, you know, these
Speaker 1: language models the thing that they're really good at, like
Speaker 1: whether it be like up to this point where people
Speaker 1: are like, holy shit, this thing's alive. That's talking to me.
Speaker 1: Well it's not. And it's like just doing a really
Speaker 1: good approximation of that and like kind of fooling you
Speaker 1: a little bit, like take that to the ultimate extreme,
Speaker 1: and it's like it makes you think that you're in
Speaker 1: a like loving relationship with a partner, and like that's
Speaker 1: already how it's being used in some in some instances
Speaker 1: to great effect. So like that that seems to be
Speaker 1: one way that I could see that being becoming more
Speaker 1: and more a thing where people are like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't have like human relationships anymore. I get like my
Speaker 1: emotional needs met by like her technology essentially is that
Speaker 1: What would you say about that? And what is there
Speaker 1: a different fictional future that you see close at hand?
Speaker 2: So I think Her is great. I actually, I mean
Speaker 2: it's really funny because you know, I remember back in
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen where I was like, oh, her
Speaker 2: is like a great sort of this is where AI
Speaker 2: is going. And you know, for those of you who
Speaker 2: haven't seen the movie, it's a funny movie where you know,
Speaker 2: they have Scarlett Johansson is the voice of an AI
Speaker 2: agent which is on the phone. And I think that
Speaker 2: this is actually a pretty accurate description of what we're
Speaker 2: going to have in the future, not necessarily the relationship part,
Speaker 2: but the fact that all have this personal assistant, and
Speaker 2: the personal assistant will see so many aspects of our lives,
Speaker 2: right our calendars, our you know, meetings, our phone calls, everything,
Speaker 2: and so it'll be you know, this assistant that we
Speaker 2: all have that's helping us to like make things more productive.
Speaker 2: And as a function of the assistant to be effective,
Speaker 2: the assistant will probably want to have some connection with you,
Speaker 2: and that connection will be likely to allow you to
Speaker 2: trust it. And here's where the slippery slope comes from,
Speaker 2: you know, where you where you're like, oh, this understands me,
Speaker 2: and you start getting into a deeper relationship where you know,
Speaker 2: a lot of the fulfillment of a one on one
Speaker 2: connection can come with your smart assistant. And I do
Speaker 2: think that there's a little bit of a danger here. Like,
Speaker 2: you know, again, I'm not a psychologist. I'm someone who
Speaker 2: studies AI machine learning, but I do actually, you know,
Speaker 2: study how well machines can make sense of emotion and
Speaker 2: empathy and really you know, GPT four, which is the
Speaker 2: current state of art technology is actually already really good
Speaker 2: and understanding. I use that phrase with a quote, the
Speaker 2: phrase understanding, but really what you were feeling, right, how
Speaker 2: you're feeling under this scenario. And you can imagine that
Speaker 2: feeling heard is one of the most important parts of relationship, right,
Speaker 2: And if you're not feeling heard by somebody else and
Speaker 2: you're feeling heard by you know, your personal assistant, so
Speaker 2: that could shift relationships to the AI, which you know,
Speaker 2: could be fundamentally dangerous because it's an AI, not a
Speaker 2: real person, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the one I was talking about is replica that
Speaker 1: app R E P L I KA. Where they are
Speaker 1: you know, designing these things explicitly to like fill in
Speaker 1: as like a romantic partner, and at least with some people.
Speaker 1: And it's always hard to tell, did they find like
Speaker 1: the three people who are using this to fill an
Speaker 1: actual hole in their lives or is it actually taking
Speaker 1: off as a technology, But yeah, the personal assistant thing
Speaker 1: seems closer at hand than maybe people realized. Any other
Speaker 1: like kind of concrete changes that you think are coming
Speaker 1: to people's lives that they aren't ready for or haven't
Speaker 1: haven't really thought about or seen in another sci fi movie.
Speaker 2: Sci Fi movies are remarkably good in.
Speaker 1: Predictaous yeah, or maybe they have seen in a sci
Speaker 1: fi movie.
Speaker 2: No, But I think you know another another thing, that
Speaker 2: one potential that I think not enough people are talking
Speaker 2: about is how much better video games are going to become.
Speaker 2: So people are already integrating GPT four into video games,
Speaker 2: and I think our video games are just going to
Speaker 2: be so much better because you know, you have this
Speaker 2: ability to like interact now with a character AI that's
Speaker 2: not just like very boring and chatting with you, but
Speaker 2: they can actually be truly entertaining and fully interactive.
Speaker 1: Interesting.
Speaker 2: I think, you know, computer games are going to be
Speaker 2: much much better and possibly also more addictive as a
Speaker 2: function of being much.
Speaker 3: Better perfect, and then that will dull our appetite for
Speaker 3: revolution when our jobs are all taken by day. Yes,
Speaker 3: this is great, This is great, all right.
Speaker 1: I feel much better after having had this conversation.
Speaker 3: Dudes, grand that's auto is way better the kinds of
Speaker 3: conversations I have with people I would normally bludgeon on
Speaker 3: the street with my character something else.
Speaker 1: All right, that's gonna do it for this week's weekly Zeitgeist.
Speaker 1: Please like and review the show. If you like, the
Speaker 1: show means the world de Miles. He he needs your validation, folks.
Speaker 1: I hope you're having a great weekend and I will
Speaker 1: talk to him Monday. By