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Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb. Today's Saturday, so we have a

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Speaker 1: vault for you. This is going to be the Manta

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Speaker 1: Ray Part three of three. This was a really fun

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Speaker 1: series that we did last year. This particular episode originally

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Speaker 1: published seven ten, twenty twenty five. Let's dive right into it.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind, production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with part

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Speaker 3: three in our series on the genus Mobula, the manta

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Speaker 3: rays and the devil rays. In part one of the series,

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Speaker 3: we talked about the original inspiration for covering this topic,

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Speaker 3: which was that Rob, you and your family got to

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Speaker 3: see reef manta rays in person while snorkeling in Indonesia

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Speaker 3: this summer, which sounds like an amazing experience.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Again, it almost is too much to describe, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: we jumped out of the boat. This is after an

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Speaker 1: initial snorkeling in another coral rich area, and then they

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Speaker 1: took us out to a manta ray cleaning station, which

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Speaker 1: we're going to get into in this episode. If you

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Speaker 1: don't know what a cleaning station is, you're about you're

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Speaker 1: going to find out. It is not like a service station.

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Speaker 1: It is not an artificial, human made thing. When I

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Speaker 1: don't remember when this was, but the very first time

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Speaker 1: I heard about cleaning stations in the water for organisms,

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Speaker 1: it made me think, oh, well, they installed a big

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Speaker 1: rotating brush in the water and it draws in the fish.

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Speaker 1: Because cleaning stations. Again, we'll get into all the details

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Speaker 1: of this, it is a place where if you know

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Speaker 1: where the cleaning stations are, then you as divers or

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Speaker 1: snorkelers can go there and you have an increased chance

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Speaker 1: of seeing the various organisms that make use of it.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, I had a much bloodier picture in my mind,

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Speaker 3: but I think fish and cleaning station. I think of

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Speaker 3: like a gutting station where the guys there like ripping

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Speaker 3: the guts out of the fishy.

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Speaker 1: Cot Well, you know, there's a little bit of that

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Speaker 1: sprinkled in. We'll get into it, but yeah, basically, we

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Speaker 1: second stop on this snorkeling this morning snorkeling trip that

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Speaker 1: we did, and they took us out to a cleaning

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Speaker 1: station and we jumped in the water and it was,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's just reef environment was but it was

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Speaker 1: much deeper than we'd been in, a little darker than

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Speaker 1: we'd been in. And I sometimes get a little nervous

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Speaker 1: when we're talking about like deeper water and bigger things

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Speaker 1: in the water. But seeing these large reef mantis going

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Speaker 1: about their business doing some loops here and there, even wash,

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Speaker 1: it was magical. You just felt absolutely at peace with them.

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Speaker 3: So after that in the first episode, we also talked

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Speaker 3: a bit about the history of human interactions with the

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Speaker 3: manter rays and devil rays. We got into old misconceptions

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Speaker 3: that manter rays are threatening to human boats and divers.

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Speaker 3: That's not true, and relatively new misconceptions that their body

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Speaker 3: parts have medicinal value. Of course, both of these false

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Speaker 3: beliefs leading to harm to manta and devil ray populations

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Speaker 3: by humans, and we also talked about ongoing conservation efforts

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Speaker 3: to protect the world's remaining rays. We discussed some basics

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Speaker 3: of manta ray biology, including their body design, feeding habits,

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Speaker 3: and their tendency to breach the water's surface leaping up

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Speaker 3: in the air. In part two of this series, we

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Speaker 3: followed up on stories from an older marine biology article

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Speaker 3: that told of mantas and devil rays taking hold of

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Speaker 3: the anchor lines and mooring lines of a boat and

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Speaker 3: dragging the boats out to sea, and we discussed how

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Speaker 3: it seems this can happen and sometimes does actually happen,

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Speaker 3: but it's clearly not intentional on the part of the manta,

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Speaker 3: and we got into some biological reasons that mopulid rays

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Speaker 3: are prone to getting tangled in loose lines in the water.

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Speaker 3: We also talked about some recommended methods for making mooring

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Speaker 3: lines safer rays. After that we got into mobulid reproduction,

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Speaker 3: which is really fascinating the way they engage in internal

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Speaker 3: fertilization and viviparity, meaning sort of full body contact, sexual intercourse,

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Speaker 3: and live birth respectively, so making them, as in so

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Speaker 3: many other ways, kind of superficially resembling of mammals, even

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Speaker 3: though they are fish not mammals. And we also got

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Speaker 3: into the elaborate fitness displays that males go through in

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Speaker 3: these sort of mass chain races before the female finally

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Speaker 3: chooses or mate. And today we're here again to talk about.

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Speaker 1: More that's right, and the place I'd like to pick

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Speaker 1: up is discussing manta rays and their parasites, and there's

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Speaker 1: some bleed over here into other mobulid parasite loads as well.

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Speaker 1: Some of the information you know applies to devil rays

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Speaker 1: and so forth, and a lot and as we've been discussing, like,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot more known about the ins and outs

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Speaker 1: of reef manta rays as opposed to the the oceanic

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Speaker 1: man to raise which are the largest. So you might

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Speaker 1: remember back to our episode about the grey whale, and

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Speaker 1: like the basic observation that large marine animals often have

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Speaker 1: to deal with sizeable parasite loads, or if not actual parasites,

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Speaker 1: then creatures engaged in some degree of mutualism either way

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Speaker 1: you slice it. Large marine organisms tend to attract a

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Speaker 1: fair number of hangers on and they become mobile environments

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Speaker 1: for these various organisms.

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Speaker 3: In the case of gray whales, am I remembering right

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Speaker 3: that barnacles would tend to attach to the outside of

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Speaker 3: the gray whale, Like the gray whale becomes a substrate

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Speaker 3: that is useful for the barnacle because they need something

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Speaker 3: solid to attach the bottom of their body to. And

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Speaker 3: then also by moving through the water, the whale you know,

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Speaker 3: brings food to them, essentially allowing water to flow past.

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Speaker 1: Them, right, And as we discussed in those episodes, like

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Speaker 1: there's there's on one hand a strong case to be

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Speaker 1: made that oh, these these the poor whales are just

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Speaker 1: covered with these barnacles, like a ship with barnacles, gaining

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Speaker 1: no bit fit from it. But then we also explored

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Speaker 1: hypothesis that proposed that, well, actually there are some potential

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Speaker 1: benefits to having these barnacles on your body.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the question was do the barnacles form a kind

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Speaker 3: of armor of sorts That was not known for sure

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Speaker 3: to be clear, that was like a possibility, but I

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Speaker 3: think it was more likely assumed that it is sort

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Speaker 3: of a net negative to the way all to have

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Speaker 3: all these barnacles on it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but this similar conversation often occurs around these discussions

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Speaker 1: of symbiosis and mutualism and parasitism, questions about who's getting

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Speaker 1: the most out of this relationship, is it unbalanced? To

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Speaker 1: what degree is it unbalanced? And you see it go

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Speaker 1: various directions where arguments end up being made that what

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Speaker 1: is thought of as a parasite might actually have some benefits,

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Speaker 1: and you know, and the opposite something that seems like

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Speaker 1: there's a beneficial give and take and maybe it's a

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Speaker 1: little less beneficial than we used to think it was.

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Speaker 1: At any rate, it's definitely the case with the man

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Speaker 1: to that they have a lot of hangers on and

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Speaker 1: they vary greatly. Mantas have to contend, for instance, with

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Speaker 1: tiny copa pod parasites that get literally everywhere on them. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: you also have things like harmless juvenile golden traveler fish,

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Speaker 1: which just ride the pressure wave and alongside the creature,

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Speaker 1: and in the same way that sometimes dolphins are seen

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Speaker 1: to ride alongside ships. But as far as I'm to understand,

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Speaker 1: they don't pose any risk or damage to the manta rays.

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Speaker 1: And then they split when they're old enough to fin

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Speaker 1: for themselves, and then you have these sucker plate headed

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Speaker 1: remorras to continue with, and there's sometimes a little harder

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Speaker 1: to figure.

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Speaker 3: Out sort of gray area here.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes, I mean again, this is often the case

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Speaker 1: the deeper you look into any of these relationships. But basically,

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Speaker 1: if you're not familiar with the remorra, ramora's dorsal fin

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Speaker 1: has evolved into an oval slatted sucker organ so like

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Speaker 1: by flexing the little slats on there, they can they

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Speaker 1: can suction onto a surface such as the side of

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Speaker 1: a whale or a shark, or you know, a turtle

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Speaker 1: or a ship or a human diver. I think it

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Speaker 1: occurs occasionally. They're free swimming fish, but they like to

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Speaker 1: hitch a ride, and there are many different species. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: they attach to all sorts of organisms, including manta rays,

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Speaker 1: and indeed they've been known to take up more or

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Speaker 1: less permanent residents, sometimes inside a manta's mouth or hide

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Speaker 1: in other body openings such as gills or the kloeca.

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Speaker 1: They typically feed on the ectoparasites and loose skin flakes

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Speaker 1: and other leavings of an organism. And yeah, it seems

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Speaker 1: to be what's happening with manta rays. Not every variety

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Speaker 1: of remora that latches onto a manta can keep up

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Speaker 1: with it can remain with the host, especially as it

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Speaker 1: ventures into deeper waters. Some get displaced. And in general,

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Speaker 1: it seems like the longer a manta hangs out in

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Speaker 1: a shallow reef environment, the more it's liable to attract remoras.

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Speaker 1: So that's the case I've read with you know, certainly

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Speaker 1: the reef manta over the oceanic manta. And then it's

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Speaker 1: also the case with mantas hanging out closer to shallow

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Speaker 1: waters due to some particular state of their own life cycle. Now,

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Speaker 1: the book that I keep referring to in these episodes

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Speaker 1: guide to the Manta and Devil Rays of the World

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Speaker 1: by Stevens, Fernando dan Do, and Discaria. In this they

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Speaker 1: point out that scientists often cleanly label this relationship between

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Speaker 1: the remoras and the manta rays as parasitic, arguing there's

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Speaker 1: no real benefit for the mantis here. For instance, the

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Speaker 1: gill activity going in and out of the gills can

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Speaker 1: result in heavy scarring for example, essentially like mutilating the

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Speaker 1: gills over time. Now, others argue, well, the remoras does

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Speaker 1: seem to do some level of cleaning though they're eating

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Speaker 1: up parasites, you know, dead skin flakes, and this, they

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Speaker 1: would point they point out, would be helpful, especially to

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Speaker 1: the oceanic manta, as it frequents cleaning stations far less.

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Speaker 1: As we discussed in cleaning stations tend to be you know,

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Speaker 1: in reef environments, and if you're out there in the

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Speaker 1: middle of it, there are fewer of these around. So

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Speaker 1: perhaps the assistance in these cases would balance out the

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Speaker 1: harm at least to some degree. Now, maybe it's not.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know how often you really see

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Speaker 1: a fifty to fifty split with these relationships in nature,

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Speaker 1: Like you know, there's there's gonna be you know, all

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Speaker 1: all the factors of evolution and behavior or in play here,

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Speaker 1: and it's this is ever the question when we're pondering

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Speaker 1: relationships like this.

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Speaker 3: So for a very rough analogy, it's kind of like

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Speaker 3: if you had a squirrel that lived on your body

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Speaker 3: and it climbed all over you eating the fleas that

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Speaker 3: you also have eating the fleas and mosquitoes that swarm

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Speaker 3: your skin. So that's good, you don't want the fleas

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Speaker 3: and mosquitos, But also the squirrel's claws are like scratching

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Speaker 3: you up, and it's probably causing problems while you're trying

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Speaker 3: to move around, So you get a plus an a minus.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it always reminds me of the Doctor

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Speaker 1: Seuss book Thidwick the Big Hearted Moose. This is it's

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Speaker 1: not a situation where Fidwick's dealing with parasites and creatures

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Speaker 1: eating the parasites, but he has a big heart and

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Speaker 1: he keeps letting animals ride in his antlers until it

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Speaker 1: gets that hand.

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Speaker 3: I feel like it's got to be one of the

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Speaker 3: less big hearted Doctor Seuss books.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the message there is maybe a little less less rosy,

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Speaker 1: but I don't know. I do come back to it

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Speaker 1: and think about it from time to time, so you

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Speaker 1: know that in the Sleep book, I guess really really home.

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Speaker 1: But at any rate, this is the case with large

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Speaker 1: organisms like this. There's just much more space for ectoparasites

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Speaker 1: to get everywhere, and parasites have their own parasites and

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Speaker 1: filter feeders also swim around with their mouths wide open

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Speaker 1: while feeding. You know, they're bringing organisms into their mouth

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Speaker 1: and that can bring in extra creatures as well. So

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Speaker 1: what is a manta to do? Breaching may help, as

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Speaker 1: we discussed, as it may help with other marine organisms. Again,

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Speaker 1: as we just mentioned, they can shake some of their

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Speaker 1: hangers on via their deeper dives. But at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, they're going to need some help. They

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Speaker 1: can't turn to each other. They don't really have much

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Speaker 1: in the way of you know, limbs. They can't groom

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Speaker 1: each other in the way that say primates do, so

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Speaker 1: they're going to have to head to the cleaning stations.

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Speaker 3: All right, So we're finally here. Tell me about the

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Speaker 3: cleaning stations.

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Speaker 1: All right, now, I want to add a caveat I

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Speaker 1: am very likely to accidentally call a cleaning station a

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Speaker 1: feeding station. I've been doing this in casual conversation over

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Speaker 1: and over again over the past several weeks, perhaps in

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Speaker 1: part because for the fish working and you know some

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Speaker 1: I'm shrimp working at these cleaning stations, it is a

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Speaker 1: feeding station because that's what they're doing. They're feeding, that's

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Speaker 1: what they're getting out of it. Ultimately, we were talking

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Speaker 1: about a cleaning symbiosis situation that benefits all of the

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Speaker 1: organisms involved, and it's not unique to mantis. You'll find

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Speaker 1: the scenario throughout the aquatic environment, both in fresh water

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Speaker 1: and salt water. Fish deal with their individual parasite loads

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Speaker 1: in a variety of ways, but it's often useful to

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Speaker 1: get some help. These relationships have developed over time in

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Speaker 1: which fish will seek out areas populated by various other

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Speaker 1: organisms that generally we're talking and certainly in marine environments

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Speaker 1: about small reef fishes. Also sometimes some shrimp are involved

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Speaker 1: in this. There are various examples of this outside of

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Speaker 1: the water as well. For instance, on land, examples such

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Speaker 1: as the crocodile and the Egyptian plover or crocodile bird

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Speaker 1: have been observed since ancient times. You can find like

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Speaker 1: Herodotus writing about.

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Speaker 3: This and still cute to see today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is the bird that goes inside the rockcodile's mouth,

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Speaker 1: holds the mouth open, goes in there and starts doing

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Speaker 1: some dental cleanup. Uh. The Egyptian plover, by the way,

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Speaker 1: not to be confused with Egyptian lever. Different. That's a

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Speaker 1: that's a musical artist, a legendary musical artist that I've

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Speaker 1: referenced on the show before.

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Speaker 3: Look it up, kids.

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Speaker 1: Uh. The oxpecker is a great example from the surface

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Speaker 1: world as well, a bird that feeds exclusively on the

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Speaker 1: bodies of large mammals, though this one is also much

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Speaker 1: discussed in scientific circles because that's it's definitely a case

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Speaker 1: where there are strong arguments to be made that the

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Speaker 1: oxpecker might not ultimately help the organism that it's landing

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Speaker 1: on all that much, and might be as much of

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Speaker 1: a nuisance in and of itself in the ocean. To

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Speaker 1: return to the waters, however, you see various fish take

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Speaker 1: advantage of these services, including the parrotfish, which were previously

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Speaker 1: discussed on the show so you don't have to be

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Speaker 1: a behemoth to benefit from a visit to the various

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Speaker 1: organisms that want to eat your parasites, as well as

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Speaker 1: perhaps some loose, dry skin or rancid flesh around your wound.

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Speaker 1: In fact, some cleaners are specialized wound cleaners. But naturally,

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Speaker 1: when you are a large fish riddled with parasites, you

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Speaker 1: know you can't scratch those itches again. So manta rays

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Speaker 1: have to head to these stations, and it seems again

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Speaker 1: it seems to work for everyone. Small fish and shrimp

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Speaker 1: can't swim as far or do so safely in search

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Speaker 1: of food, so they'll, you know, they set up at

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Speaker 1: a cleaning station. Generally this is like a rocky outcropping

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Speaker 1: the edge of a reef or you know, something like that,

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Speaker 1: and here they can just hang out and their meals

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Speaker 1: will be delivered to them because the customers will show up.

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Speaker 1: They will go where the cleaner organisms.

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Speaker 3: Are right, so by being easy to locate and offering

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Speaker 3: a service, they can have this dependable influx of resources

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Speaker 3: from abroad. It almost makes me think about like the

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Speaker 3: economies of I don't know, freeway exits where there will

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Speaker 3: be you know, gas stations and restaurants built up around

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Speaker 3: a freeway exit, like you know, the traffic's coming in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean you often see this compared

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Speaker 1: to like a trip to the barber, the dentist, and

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Speaker 1: so forth, all wrapped into one. Because yet they'll they'll

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Speaker 1: get inside the mouth to clean out the teeth, they'll

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Speaker 1: clean out gills, they'll eat away algae growths, dead and

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Speaker 1: molting skin, bacterial, fungal growths, you know, getting food particles

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Speaker 1: out of the mouth. It's really quite extensive. And then

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Speaker 1: these are generally small organisms that are doing this, so

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Speaker 1: they can target those tiny acto parasites and seek them

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Speaker 1: out all over the host's body, in every every crevice.

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Speaker 1: And so the mantas actually the kind of queue up

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Speaker 1: for this. One of the bits of advice that the

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Speaker 1: the the Snorkel guides had for us was was, you know,

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Speaker 1: among all the reasons not to get too close is

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Speaker 1: you also don't want to essentially enter the cleaning station,

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Speaker 1: not because the fish are going to clean you, but

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Speaker 1: because the mantas are going to be like, oh, it's occupied,

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Speaker 1: I can't go in there, like you're taking up room.

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Speaker 1: It's like you've pulled into the car wash ahead of

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Speaker 1: people who want their car cleaned.

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Speaker 3: What would they do? Would they patiently wait their turn?

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Speaker 3: I guess maybe?

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Speaker 1: Or potentially clear? I mean also the humans being where

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Speaker 1: they need to be. I think they're a number of

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Speaker 1: reasons that they might sort of scare them off, you know,

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Speaker 1: like you're too loud with your flippers, you're coming out

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Speaker 1: of the water too much. I think in general they

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Speaker 1: might just decide, well, another time fair enough to bring

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Speaker 1: it back to Thidwick, the big hearted moose, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't think he ever considered visiting a wolf cleaning

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Speaker 1: station or something for all of those various mammals and

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Speaker 1: birds living on his antlers. Now, as discussed before, against

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Speaker 1: symbiosis is a spectrum, and it can shift with either

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Speaker 1: party reaping more of the benefits and in some cases

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Speaker 1: perhaps taking a bit of advantage, at least from the

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Speaker 1: human perspective. So some cleaner species do seem to gage engage.

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Speaker 1: This is in general in occasional acts that feel more parasitic,

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Speaker 1: like maybe they're you know, they're eating parasites, but maybe

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Speaker 1: they're eating a little body mucus off of the surface

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Speaker 1: of a fish or aquatic creature as well, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe they're grabbing a little flesh that's less on the

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Speaker 1: rancid side, but you know, just because they can, So

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Speaker 1: you know, I guess to answerphomorphize the scenario. There are

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Speaker 1: always going to be some bad actors, maybe some folks

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Speaker 1: who take advantage of the trust in a given scenario.

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Speaker 1: But I think still on the whole, even with these cases,

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Speaker 1: cleaning stations seem to benefit everyone, even if sometimes there's

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Speaker 1: a little advantage taken. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Well, and all kinds of organisms have symbiotic relationships that

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Speaker 3: are sort of balanced on a knife edge like this.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I would say it's true of us with

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Speaker 3: our own microbiota. Yeah, you know, of course human beings

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Speaker 3: rely on, for example, our gut flora in order to

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Speaker 3: do all kinds of things you know, to be healthy,

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Speaker 3: to help with digestion. So we're definitely worse off without it.

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Speaker 3: We need it, but at the same time it can

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Speaker 3: turn opportunistic and it can harm us if you know

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Speaker 3: there's something wrong with yoummune system or other kinds of

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Speaker 3: conditions come online.

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Speaker 1: Now, there are some additional levers that the manta ray

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Speaker 1: can pull and stevens that all get into this in

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Speaker 1: the guide book. These are things that the manta will

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Speaker 1: also do it feeding stations, which it makes sense. The

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Speaker 1: manta knows that it is at a location where the

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Speaker 1: local population is heavily invested in the manta's parasites, its

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Speaker 1: previous meals, and so forth. So first of all, they

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Speaker 1: frequently defecate at these cleaning stations, makes sense. I mean

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Speaker 1: with all creatures, and stuff that's defecated is going to

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Speaker 1: include things that are still of interest to various scavenging creatures.

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Speaker 1: They will also cough or vomit, blasting particles like food

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Speaker 1: particles out of their mouth, which cleaners are also going

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Speaker 1: to be interested in. And Stephen's at all right that

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Speaker 1: sometimes they blast out massive clumps of undigested zooplanked and exoskeletons.

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Speaker 1: I don't have a photograph to refer to, but I

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Speaker 1: just like a mental image of what this might look like.

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Speaker 1: And then back to their defecation, they'll also invert their

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Speaker 1: intestines up to thirty centimeters or twelve inches out of

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Speaker 1: their cloaca while they're doing it, just to better clean

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Speaker 1: everything out that's feces, but also parasites, presumably indo n ectoparasites,

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Speaker 1: and interestingly enough their feces i've read is basically dark

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Speaker 1: red due to all the plankton. So when they do this,

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Speaker 1: if you're in the water with them, and you know,

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Speaker 1: they don't care if you're in the water when they

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Speaker 1: do this, they're they're gonna let loose as needed. This

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Speaker 1: process has often been misinterpreted by divers as like they

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Speaker 1: don't know what they're looking at. It looks like it

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Speaker 1: might be blood or something, maybe they're injured, or in

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Speaker 1: some cases they might think they're about to view of birth,

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Speaker 1: which makes sense when you look at We talked about

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Speaker 1: this video footage in the last episode from an aquarium

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Speaker 1: in Okinawa, Japan, where we see one of the very

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Speaker 1: few recordings of a manta giving birth, and it does

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Speaker 1: like like this initial discharge of particles in the water.

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Speaker 1: I can see where you might confuse the two acts.

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Speaker 3: A burrito in the middle of a cloud and then

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Speaker 3: the burido unfolds.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so that might be a case where someone's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I think it's giving birth, but then you realize, oh,

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Speaker 1: there's no baby. It's just a cloud of red manta

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Speaker 1: fecal matter.

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Speaker 3: They're just pooping out part of their own intestines to

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Speaker 3: get it all cleaned out. Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, Joe, I believe there's there's at least

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Speaker 1: one more organ we want to talk about inside the

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Speaker 1: manta's body, right.

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Speaker 3: That's right. We wanted to come back to the subject

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Speaker 3: of manta brains and intelligence, so we already talked in

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Speaker 3: previous parts of the series about how when people have

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Speaker 3: close encounters with manta rays, they often report similar feelings.

396
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Speaker 3: You'll read about this in people describing their dives with them.

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Speaker 3: The manta is a fish, but it does not feel

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Speaker 3: like a fish when you're in its presence. It has

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Speaker 3: a kind of palpable intelligence and emotionality, a sense of

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Speaker 3: curiosity that we generally only associate with social mammals, and

401
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Speaker 3: maybe sometimes with other strange intelligences like that of an octopus,

402
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Speaker 3: but certainly not with fish. You'll read about this over

403
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Speaker 3: and over with these manta experiences. Now, of course, that

404
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 3: feeling of being in communion with a higher intelligence is

405
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Speaker 3: just a subjective impression people have. It could be an illusion.

406
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Speaker 3: Maybe it's based in some kind of esthetic charisma, something

407
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Speaker 3: about the way the manta looks, or something about the

408
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Speaker 3: way it moves. The question would be, is there any

409
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Speaker 3: objective scientific reason for thinking there's actually something special about

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Speaker 3: the intelligence of the genus mobula compared to other fish.

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Speaker 3: I think the answer is pretty clearly yes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's my indication as well, because you know, to

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Speaker 1: your point, people have this feeling about their dogs and

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Speaker 1: cats all the time, not to discount the intelligence of

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Speaker 1: dogs and cats, which is with each of which are unique.

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Speaker 1: But like we have this of course amazing human ability

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Speaker 1: to anthropomorphize, to personify, and imbue just about anything with

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Speaker 1: a remarkable level of intelligence and free will.

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Speaker 3: Well, yes, that is certainly true. I mean the I

420
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Speaker 3: have the beholder quality to this whole thing. But I

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Speaker 3: would also say that, even just somewhat objectively, I think

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Speaker 3: dogs and cats, as somewhat social mammals do have a

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Speaker 3: higher level of cognitive complexity than most fish. You could argue, yes, yeah,

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Speaker 3: absolutely so, there are definitely I have the beholder elements.

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Speaker 3: These are mammals that need to navigate a somewhat socially

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Speaker 3: complex world. That they've got something going on up there.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's dig into the old mantamelon what are they

428
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:50,640
Speaker 1: working with up there?

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Speaker 3: Okay, first of all, I think we should address the

430
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 3: question of raw hardware what kind of neural equipment Demanta

431
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 3: rays and devil rays have to work with. And to

432
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,200
Speaker 3: get into this question, I wanted to look at a

433
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:05,920
Speaker 3: paper by a name you'll see popping up a whole

434
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 3: lot in manterray research. This was by a researcher named

435
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 3: Scilla Ari. That's spelled csi Lla and then the last

436
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 3: name is Ari if you want to look her up.

437
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 3: Her research is all over the place. She studies manterray

438
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 3: neurobiology and the paper is called Encephalization and Brain organization

439
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 3: of mobulid rays myleobataforms Elasmo Bronchi with ecological perspectives. This

440
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,719
Speaker 3: was published in the Open Anatomy Journal in twenty eleven,

441
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,919
Speaker 3: and so this paper set out to measure the brain

442
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 3: size of three different species in the genus Mobula. It

443
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 3: looked at Mobula japanica, or the spinetale devil ray, also

444
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 3: known as the Japanese devil ray, Mobula Thurstoni or the

445
00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 3: bent fin devil ray, and Mobula birostras known at the

446
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 3: time this paper was published as man birosts. Manta was

447
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 3: once treated as a separate genus, but now the mantas

448
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 3: are grouped with the rest of the mobular genus. But anyway,

449
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 3: this is the giant oceanic manta ray. This is the

450
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 3: big one, the biggest of them all. So to run

451
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 3: through a selection of some of the main findings. First

452
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 3: of all, the giant oceanic manta ray birosters has the

453
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 3: largest brain of any known fish species, just in absolute terms,

454
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 3: biggest brain of all the fish. Also, mantas and devil

455
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 3: rays not only have large brains in absolute terms, but

456
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 3: they have very high brain to body mass ratios. This

457
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 3: is known in anatomy as the encephalization quotion. So a

458
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 3: larger brain is not always a sign of greater intelligence,

459
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 3: at least when measured along the dimensions of intelligence that

460
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 3: we find interesting. Often a large brain in an animal

461
00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 3: is necessary, especially when the animal is itself large, simply

462
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 3: to control movement and nerve feedback for that massive body. So,

463
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,280
Speaker 3: if you have a huge body, you need to control

464
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 3: a lot of big muscles all over the place. You

465
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 3: need to get sensory feedback from all over the body,

466
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 3: so you need a big brain just to handle all that.

467
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,400
Speaker 3: It might not necessarily be for the kinds of things

468
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,480
Speaker 3: we think of when we say the word intelligence, things

469
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:26,640
Speaker 3: like problem solving, memory, learning, social cognition, that sort of thing.

470
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 3: What tends to correlate more often with those kinds of

471
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 3: intelligence is having a bigger brain relative to the size

472
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 3: of your body. And even then, the relationship between in civilization,

473
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:43,280
Speaker 3: quotient and observed intelligence is not completely linear, but it's

474
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 3: a fairly strong relationship in terms of the structure of

475
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 3: the brain and the characteristics of the brain tissue. These

476
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 3: rays showed first of all, an enlarged telencephalon. The telencephalon

477
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,400
Speaker 3: is the fore brain the front part of the brain

478
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 3: correspond to the cerebrum in mammals, and also what the

479
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 3: author calls a highly foliated cerebellum, and this means that

480
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:13,439
Speaker 3: the cerebellum has a more folded texture, which increases the

481
00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 3: surface area of the cerebellum and that in turn increases

482
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 3: the number of neurons and the density of neurons on

483
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:25,000
Speaker 3: the cerebellum, allowing more connections and thus greater information processing power.

484
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 3: And these anatomical features, the larger telencephalon and the more

485
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:35,439
Speaker 3: highly foliated cerebellum are correlated with more complex behavior and

486
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 3: cognition in other species, So just looking at their brains

487
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 3: and brain tissue. It definitely does look like something special

488
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,639
Speaker 3: is going on with the mobular rays compared to other fish.

489
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 3: You're seeing patterns that you see more with smarter animals

490
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 3: across different types of lineages.

491
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: There's a great illustration in the Manta and Devil Rays

492
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: of the World book where they show on one hand,

493
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: the brain of a spinetailed devil ray mobula mobular, and

494
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:09,120
Speaker 1: then they compare it to the brain of a similarly

495
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 1: sized common skate. You know, so this is a not

496
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 1: unrelated creature, similar size, and you can see like drastic

497
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 1: difference between the two. The ray's brain just looks absolutely

498
00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: bloated and engorged, you know, and then the skate's brain

499
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:32,399
Speaker 1: is streamlined. And by comparison, so you know, even not

500
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 1: knowing exactly what sorts of neural tissues you're looking at,

501
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 1: you can see like, oh, this thing looks super charge.

502
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: This one looks oversized compared to a similarly sized organism. Yeah.

503
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 3: This paper also has some very juicy illustrations and some

504
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 3: fiend without a face kind of stuff.

505
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

506
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 3: But anyway, so the question would be, what is all

507
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,719
Speaker 3: of this high powered neural equipment for? What would they

508
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 3: need these powerful and highly full brains. For one possible

509
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 3: explanation that Ari gets into in this paper is complex

510
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 3: social behaviors. As we already discussed in the previous episodes,

511
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 3: modular rays show these interesting complicated group behavior patterns. Examples

512
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 3: of this would include forming schools that engage in coordinated

513
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 3: and organized feeding behaviors. So remember that chain feeding where

514
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 3: they'll go in a line feeding together or cyclone feeding

515
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 3: where they go in a circle. They organize into these

516
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 3: patterns to take better advantage of food sources. Also, another

517
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 3: example of group coordinated group behavior patterns are when they

518
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 3: get into these large mate fitness competitions with potentially dozens

519
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 3: of rays chasing around in these athletic courtship displays. Broadly,

520
00:29:55,240 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 3: the management of complex social relationships and social behaviors is

521
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 3: thought to be one of the key drivers of brain

522
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 3: evolution in other species. So when you need to navigate

523
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 3: a complex social landscape full of other members of your

524
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 3: species and you need to maybe work together and manage

525
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 3: relationships like recognizing specific individuals of your species and remembering

526
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,080
Speaker 3: interactions with them you've had in the past, that is

527
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 3: often when evolution starts really putting pressure on you to

528
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 3: wise up that is thought to be a big driver

529
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 3: of brain evolution in other lineages. We've already talked about

530
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 3: evidence of mantas working together and engaging in these complex

531
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 3: group behaviors, But is there any evidence that they that

532
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 3: they do what I was just saying, that they recognize

533
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 3: and remember each other as individuals. In effect, do they

534
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 3: have time stable social relationships. I went looking for an

535
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 3: answer here and I found it seems to be yes,

536
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 3: there there is some evidence of that. So I came

537
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 3: across a paper by Perryman at All published in the

538
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 3: journal Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology in the year twenty nineteen

539
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 3: called Social Preferences and Network Structure and a Population of

540
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:18,520
Speaker 3: Reef Manta rays rob very interesting connection for you. In

541
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 3: this paper, to study the social networks of mobular rays,

542
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 3: the authors here collected data on more than five hundred

543
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 3: groups of reef manta rays. This is the species Mobula

544
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 3: alfredi over five years in raja Ampat in Indonesia. So

545
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 3: this may have been in some of the same locations

546
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 3: or around some of the same locations you visited.

547
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I'm looking at the maps in the

548
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 1: paper now and like, yep, yep, I was in that square.

549
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 3: And so in observing the mantas in these locations, the

550
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 3: authors did indeed observe what they call social preferences in

551
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 3: mobular rays, especially between females. And social preferences here would

552
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 3: mean that individual rays seem to show either an increased

553
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 3: tendency to affiliate with or a desire to avoid specific

554
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 3: other individual rays to anthropomorphize a bit, So this might

555
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 3: kind of give the wrong idea, but roughly they had

556
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 3: something analogous to friends and enemies.

557
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: Room for frenemies in that equation or is that more

558
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 1: of a human thing unclear? I don't know.

559
00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 3: We'll see what we think. So the authors found pretty

560
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 3: strong evidence for female mantas having these relationships on both

561
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 3: long and short time scales, so in the scale of

562
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 3: weeks and months, they might have a consistent preference for

563
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:44,200
Speaker 3: or against certain other female individual rays. They also found

564
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 3: pretty strong evidence for mixed sex social preferences kind of

565
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 3: friendships or enemy ships between males and females. Between males,

566
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:57,320
Speaker 3: they only found kind of weak evidence for short term relationships,

567
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:02,000
Speaker 3: so perhaps males are less social with each other on average.

568
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 3: The overall social networks were categorized as what they call

569
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 3: a dynamic fission fusion society with differentiated relationships linked to

570
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 3: strong fidelity to cleaning station sites. So this idea of

571
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 3: a fission fusion society is one whether it's not like

572
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 3: a fixed group that stays together for the duration of

573
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 3: these animals lives. They're kind of like these groups that

574
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 3: come together for some period of time and then split

575
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,920
Speaker 3: apart and then can dissolve, and then different groups can

576
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 3: kind of reform. It's a more more freeform kind of

577
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 3: social network formation and division. And then in their discussion section,

578
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,120
Speaker 3: the authors say, quote, our results show that stable, differentiated

579
00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 3: social relationships lasting over several weeks or months are an

580
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 3: important driver of group structures in reef Manta rays, which

581
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 3: suggests that both familiarity and long term social relationships are

582
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,720
Speaker 3: important in structuring their societies. In complex social systems, such

583
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 3: capabilities can be essential too identify partners in reciprocal altruism,

584
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 3: to maintain social hierarchies, and to avoid inbreeding. So those

585
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:18,160
Speaker 3: three things are strong biological reasons why it might be

586
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 3: useful to remember who another individual of your species is

587
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 3: and remember past interactions with them. You want to be

588
00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 3: able to repay favors back and forth, you know, reciprocal

589
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 3: altruism or remember if they did something mean to you

590
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 3: in the past, to avoid inbreeding, of course, and to

591
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 3: maintain kind of dominance relationships. So anyway, it seems yes,

592
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 3: the answer is modular rays do seem to be especially

593
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 3: social relative to most fish, and social cognition pressures are

594
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,439
Speaker 3: thought to a big driver of brain evolution in other

595
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 3: vertebrate lineages, so that could be a big factor at

596
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 3: play here. We don't know for sure, but that seems

597
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 3: like a very plausible explanation for why these animals would

598
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,160
Speaker 3: need to have more powerful brains. Any other reasons they

599
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,279
Speaker 3: might need to have extra brain power, Yes, Ari gets

600
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 3: into some other ideas as well. One is the need

601
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 3: to understand their spatial environment. So mobulids are pelagic fish,

602
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 3: and they often inhabit coastal waters, including places like reefs

603
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 3: and seamounts and so forth, and Ari says that there

604
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 3: may be an evolutionary pressure for them to learn the

605
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:44,839
Speaker 3: quote complex spatial organization of these habitats, which I think

606
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,919
Speaker 3: that would include like creating mental maps of not only

607
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 3: the underwater topography of like a reef or a seamount,

608
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 3: but I think it would also include dynamic elements across

609
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 3: these maps, like water currents and the presence of other

610
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,799
Speaker 3: organisms such as prey or predators, or especially cleaning mutualists.

611
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 3: Another possible explanation for their neurobiology is what Ari calls

612
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 3: their active and maneuverable lifestyles. She points out that in

613
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 3: other species, high cerebellar foliation, which remember that's the folding

614
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 3: of the cerebellum. You know, that allows more neuron density

615
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 3: there that is associated with, among other things, maneuverability and

616
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 3: strong locomotor abilities, which mobular rays absolutely do possess. You know,

617
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 3: they're very acrobatic. They can move around a lot, and

618
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 3: so their brain structures here could have something to do

619
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 3: with their tendency toward acrobatics. Another thing she points out,

620
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 3: I thought this was kind of interesting. It could have

621
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 3: something to do with their wide heads. Some aspects of

622
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 3: the large brain and the powerful tellencephalon of the manta

623
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 3: ray could be related to the fact that they have

624
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 3: a broad head similar to the hammerhead shark, which Ari

625
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 3: writes could help with organizing and integrating different kinds of

626
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 3: sensory feedback. Now I was confused about that at first.

627
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 3: I was like, that doesn't come together for me, like,

628
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 3: what's the deal? So I had to look this up

629
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 3: to understand it better. But the idea is like in

630
00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 3: hammerhead sharks, the wide head and the hammerhead sharks also

631
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 3: have an enlarged telencephalon the wide head and the enlarged

632
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 3: teleencephalon in the brain seem to help give the shark

633
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:30,479
Speaker 3: enhanced sensory abilities like electrosensory abilities, vision, and even maybe

634
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 3: a more stereoscopic sense of smell, so they can determine

635
00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:38,120
Speaker 3: the direction that smells are coming from more easily. So

636
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 3: like by spacing out the sensory organs across a wider head,

637
00:37:43,600 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 3: you can sort of increase the resolution you get across

638
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 3: multiple different sensory modalities. It's again this is a loose analogy,

639
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 3: but it's like, you know, having a bigger camera lens

640
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 3: kind of like you're increasing the resolution you can get

641
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 3: on things. And so the wide spacing there for chemical

642
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,760
Speaker 3: sensing or electro sensing and the hammerheads especially or vision

643
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 3: and all that it can help you in a way.

644
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 3: And then the strong tellencephalon the big four brain can

645
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 3: help you gather and make sense of all that information.

646
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 3: That does seem to be the case in hammerhead sharks,

647
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 3: and Broadly already says it's possible that similar sensory management

648
00:38:20,120 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 3: could be at play within mobula heads and brains. They

649
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 3: also have these big, wide heads that are putting the

650
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 3: different sensors far apart.

651
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,160
Speaker 1: That's interesting. That makes me think about some of the

652
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: hypotheses concerning breaching in mantas that like the slap of

653
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 1: their bodies hitting the water again, could be a signal

654
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: in some cases to other rays to come and start

655
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: engaging in these social feeding configurations with them.

656
00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so.

657
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,960
Speaker 1: You got to receive that signal and then know what

658
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: to do with it.

659
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 3: And then finally there was an issue brought up in

660
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 3: this paper that was a lot more interesting than I

661
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 3: first realized once they started looking into it, and that

662
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 3: was a little bit directly related to intelligence, but very

663
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 3: worth mentioning. And that is the idea of thermal issues.

664
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 3: So I'm going to start with a quote from the

665
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 3: paper here. Ari writes quote endothermy as the elevation of

666
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 3: body temperature by metabolic heat production represents one of the

667
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 3: most significant developments during vertebrate evolution that might be connected

668
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 3: to enlarged brain size. Sharks in general are poikilothermic, meaning

669
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 3: cold blooded. Their body temperature varies with the environment, but

670
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:36,760
Speaker 3: some shark species like eshuris and Lamna are homeothermic, and

671
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 3: that in this case it means regionally warm blooded. They

672
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,480
Speaker 3: can keep blood in certain parts of their body elevated

673
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:46,919
Speaker 3: warm as they are able to maintain body temperatures well

674
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 3: above ambient temperature of the environment by counter current flow

675
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 3: of blood at certain places of their body. So countercurrent

676
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 3: blood flow is another interesting phenomenon. It works as by

677
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 3: positioning the hot pipes right next to the cold pipes.

678
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 3: So generally the blood that is returning to an animal's

679
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 3: heart from its extremities through the veins is going to

680
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 3: be cold. It goes out there to the edges of

681
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 3: the body, it loses heat, and then has to come

682
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:19,960
Speaker 3: back to the heart, so it gets cold and it's

683
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 3: coming back cold. Meanwhile, arterial blood leaving the heart and

684
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 3: headed for the extremities is comparatively warm. It just came

685
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 3: from the warmest part of the body right there in

686
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 3: the core. Countercurrent blood flow places long stretches of arteries

687
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,640
Speaker 3: right next to long stretches of veins, so that the

688
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 3: warm blood coming from the core can warm up the

689
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 3: cold blood in the veins before it gets back to

690
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,040
Speaker 3: the core, and even human bodies actually take advantage of this.

691
00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 3: In our arms and legs, the veins and arteries tend

692
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 3: to be close to each other, sort of next to

693
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,919
Speaker 3: each other to help warm the cold blood returning from

694
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 3: the fingers and toes, and this adaptation helps animals maintain

695
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:09,880
Speaker 3: higher body temperatures in cold environments. But sometimes it's not

696
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 3: just positioning major vein and artery pathways next to each other.

697
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:19,799
Speaker 3: Sometimes there are dedicated structures in an animal's body that

698
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 3: really maximize this artery to vein heat exchange. And one

699
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,560
Speaker 3: example of a structure like this would be what's called

700
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 3: a reedy mirabolae chronica, which comes from the red mirabilae

701
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 3: comes from the Latin for wonderful net, and then the

702
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 3: cranica would be of the skull, the wonderful net of

703
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 3: the skull. This is a sort of dense web of

704
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 3: veins and arteries inside the cranial cavity around the brain,

705
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 3: which helps regulate the temperature of blood flow around the brain.

706
00:41:53,040 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 3: Arii writes quote among mobulid rays in Mobula, terrapacina, and mantatress.

707
00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 3: Again that's now mobula birostris a ret mirabola cranica as

708
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 3: a countercurrent heat exchanger has been described around their brain. Interestingly,

709
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 3: the same families are also characterized as large brained elasmo bronchs,

710
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 3: in which these unique adaptations might serve to enhance their

711
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 3: ability to exploit cooler environments, either deeper water or at

712
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 3: higher latitudes, with greater efficiency by slowing the rate of

713
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:30,440
Speaker 3: metabolic heat loss to the environment or allowing them a

714
00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 3: higher activity level. And I thought this was interesting. So

715
00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 3: I was reading a little bit more about this in

716
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 3: a paper called Cranial endothermy in Mobulid rays Evolutionary and

717
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 3: Ecological Implications of a thermogenic brain by mc Arostigui in

718
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 3: the Journal of Animal Ecology twenty twenty four. And here

719
00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 3: the author makes a very interesting kind of comparison, so

720
00:42:56,000 --> 00:43:02,200
Speaker 3: Arostigui writes, quote, whereas early hominids hot terrestrial environments may

721
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 3: have experienced a thermal constraint to evolving larger brain size,

722
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 3: cetaceans and mobulids, so like whales and rays here in

723
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:16,319
Speaker 3: cold marine waters, may have experienced a thermal driver for

724
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 3: enlargement of a thermogenic brain. So does that converse relationship

725
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 3: make sense to like? For human evolution, we want to

726
00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 3: have a bigger brain, right, bigger brain's great, you can

727
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 3: get real smart. But heat concerns place among other things.

728
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 3: Of course, you know, heat concerns place upper limits on

729
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 3: our ability to grow bigger brains. Those brains can easily

730
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 3: get too hot, which is dangerous to us. For mantas

731
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 3: and devil rays, there could be an opposite direction thermal

732
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 3: influence on brain evolution. The cold waters that you want

733
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,959
Speaker 3: to live in and dive down to make it pay

734
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,760
Speaker 3: thermally to have a bigger brain with this big mesh

735
00:43:55,800 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 3: of blood vessels and so Erostogwe writes in the abstract

736
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,280
Speaker 3: quote the potential for brain enlargement to yield the dual

737
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 3: outcomes of cranial endothermy and enhanced cognition in mobulids suggests

738
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 3: one may be an evolutionary byproduct of selection for the

739
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:17,480
Speaker 3: mechanisms underlying the other, and highlights the need to account

740
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 3: for non cognitive functions when translating brain size into cognitive capacity.

741
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 3: So I thought that was a fascinating idea, and this

742
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 3: is not proven, but it's raising the possibility. What if

743
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 3: mantas evolved greater intelligence as an accidental byproduct of growing

744
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 3: bigger brains, which and the growing of the bigger brains

745
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 3: was mainly driven in the first place by thermal pressure.

746
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 3: You want to keep the brain warm when you're going

747
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 3: into these cold waters.

748
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 1: That's fascinating. So yeah, it would be the environmental reasons

749
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 1: to have a big brain are like the main driving

750
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 1: force here. But then the idea is that if this

751
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 1: were true, they would also then of course use those

752
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: cognitive powers to sort of flesh out their behavior as

753
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:07,839
Speaker 1: well well.

754
00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 3: Right, So, yeah, if you accidentally evolve a more powerful

755
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 3: brain just because you're trying to keep a warmer brain

756
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 3: in cold waters, that brings new capacities online, which could

757
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,200
Speaker 3: further just arise as a contingency, but then could further

758
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,479
Speaker 3: shape your revolution if you lean into them.

759
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: So it's like to think of the there's a Marvel

760
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: supervillain called the Leader, and he has enlarged brain and

761
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 1: he uses that brain powers, you know, you know, for

762
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 1: supervillain things to try and take over the world. But

763
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: you could make an argument though, that the Leader didn't

764
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,280
Speaker 1: evolve or develop this massive brain to take over the world.

765
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:44,879
Speaker 1: He did it for thermal reasons. But then of course

766
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 1: he's going to try and take over the world with

767
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 1: it because he's got a big brain. As a result

768
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 1: of these these thermal conditions.

769
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:55,760
Speaker 3: World domination plots an unfortunate side effect, yeah, of keeping

770
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 3: a nice and toasty up there. So that's an interesting possibility, Fasten,

771
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 3: I'd never considered anything like that. So that's all I've

772
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,319
Speaker 3: got from that original paper by sila Ari on the

773
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 3: neurobiology of the mantas and the devil rays here. But

774
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:20,720
Speaker 3: there was one more thing I wanted to mention about

775
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 3: mobular ray brains and intelligence, and that is there is

776
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 3: one famous experiment which showed that manta rays may, depending

777
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 3: on your interpretation, pass a well known animal cognition milestone

778
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 3: known as the mirror self recognition test. So we've talked

779
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 3: about this test on the show before, but if you

780
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:44,879
Speaker 3: never heard of it, the most common version goes like this.

781
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:50,240
Speaker 3: You place a mark somewhere on an animal's body, somewhere

782
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 3: that they wouldn't be able to see it just by

783
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 3: looking directly at themselves, but somewhere they could see with

784
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 3: the aid of a mirror. So for a human example,

785
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 3: you can imagine putting a spot of dye on the skin,

786
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:04,560
Speaker 3: maybe on the front of your throat. So you look

787
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 3: in a mirror, you'll see it, but you can't see

788
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 3: it by looking down. Yeah, then you give that animal

789
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 3: a mirror and you watch what they do. Most animals

790
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 3: do not seem to recognize their reflections as themselves. A

791
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:21,400
Speaker 3: lot of animals will just kind of ignore a mirror.

792
00:47:21,680 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 3: Sometimes they react as if it were another animal in

793
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 3: their space. So they react, you know, maybe they puff

794
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 3: up and get aggressive, or they try to interact with

795
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 3: it somehow, or they just act confused. A small number

796
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 3: of animals, including some of the great apes, some marine

797
00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 3: mammals like bottlenosed dolphins I think, maybe orcas, some corvids,

798
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,959
Speaker 3: and know the magpie. I believe elephants may have passed

799
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 3: the mirror test. They do something different. They will touch

800
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 3: their own bodies on the spot with the mark and

801
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,920
Speaker 3: try to rub it off if they can. Sometimes because

802
00:47:57,960 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 3: of different animal body plans, you have to organize for

803
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:05,240
Speaker 3: sort of equivalents here. But they will see the mark

804
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 3: and they will try to mess with it, indicating that

805
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 3: they understand the animal they're looking at in the mirror

806
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 3: is the self and not another that's my own body,

807
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 3: and I react by touching the part of my body

808
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 3: that I see as modified in the mirror.

809
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's something we take for granted because we do

810
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 1: it every day, but if calibrated just right, it can

811
00:48:27,120 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: arguably give us some insight into what might be happening

812
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:33,600
Speaker 1: inside the brain the mind of a non human animal.

813
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 3: Right, and so this is taken as evidence of rare

814
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 3: self awareness, though we should strongly caveat this because that

815
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 3: phrase can bring a lot of associations or baggage that

816
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 3: are not necessarily proven by these experiments. There is debate

817
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 3: over exactly what the mirror test shows, but even with

818
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,880
Speaker 3: that big asterisk there, I do think the results of

819
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:58,040
Speaker 3: these experiments are fascinating. Like most animals don't recognize that

820
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 3: the mirror reflection is their own body, a few animals

821
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:06,240
Speaker 3: do appear to recognize that. What about mobular rays. Well,

822
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 3: there was a paper published in the Journal of Ethology

823
00:49:10,080 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 3: in the year twenty sixteen by same author as before

824
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 3: sila Arii, but also Dominic P. Dagostino called contingency checking

825
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:23,239
Speaker 3: and self directed behaviors in giant manta rays do elasmo

826
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 3: broncs have self awareness, and so the authors set this

827
00:49:28,120 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 3: up in their abstract by saying, quote, manta rays have

828
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,560
Speaker 3: a high encevilization quotion as we already talked about, and

829
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 3: remember large brains compared to their body size, similar to

830
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 3: those species that have passed the mirror self recognition test

831
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:45,879
Speaker 3: and possessed the largest brain of all fish species. Again,

832
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 3: that would be in the Mobula birostras, the giant oceanic

833
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:54,320
Speaker 3: manteray biggest fish brain. They write quote. In this study,

834
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 3: mirror exposure experiments were conducted on two captive giant mantrays

835
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 3: to document their response to their mirror image. So this

836
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 3: test was different from the standard format than that I

837
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 3: just described a minute ago because the authors were not

838
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 3: able to do the body mark component of the test,

839
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,359
Speaker 3: and there are some good reasons for thinking about that.

840
00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 3: For one, thing like mantas don't have hands, so they

841
00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 3: can't reach out and touch There's nothing they have that's

842
00:50:24,840 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 3: prehensile they can use to reach out and touch a

843
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 3: part of their body to mess with it. So it

844
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 3: didn't have that important body mark component of the test

845
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 3: that places some major limits on how to interpret these

846
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,760
Speaker 3: results when compared to the results of many other mirror

847
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 3: test experiments. But the authors did document the manta's behavior

848
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,239
Speaker 3: in response to the presence of a mirror, and then

849
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:51,439
Speaker 3: they controlled for that by just putting in a non

850
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 3: reflective white board of the same size in their tank,

851
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:59,359
Speaker 3: and the results were really interesting. The mantas showed a

852
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 3: lot of interest in the mirror, like a lot of interest.

853
00:51:04,680 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 3: They really were attracted to the mirror, and they wanted

854
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 3: to hang out around it. They spent a lot of

855
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 3: time moving around in front of it and messing with it.

856
00:51:13,680 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 3: They did not, on the other hand, attempt to interact

857
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 3: socially with the mirror image. And the authors could measure

858
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:24,600
Speaker 3: this because there are certain kinds of physiological responses that

859
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 3: mantas tend to show when in the presence of another manta,

860
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 3: like they might show like a kind of widening of spots,

861
00:51:32,440 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 3: or like something kind of like changes on their coloration patterns,

862
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 3: and they didn't observe anything like that. They did not

863
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 3: see the behaviors you would normally see when a manta

864
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 3: sees another of its species, so there were no signs

865
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:48,720
Speaker 3: that they thought of this as another animal. The author

866
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 3: is right quote frequent, unusual and repetitive movements in front

867
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 3: of the mirror suggested contingency checking. In addition, unusual self

868
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 3: directed behaviors could be identified when the manta rays were

869
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 3: exposed to the mirror. So what exactly do they mean

870
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:09,720
Speaker 3: by contingency checking. This seems to mean testing to see

871
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 3: if the mirror image does the same things you do.

872
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 3: So you know, you might think of making faces in

873
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 3: a mirror, or like wiggling repetitively in front of a mirror.

874
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 3: And they charge, yes, yeah, exactly, yeah, they were doing that.

875
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 3: So examples they observed were things like positioning the body

876
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:32,000
Speaker 3: to stare into the mirror and then repeatedly wiggling the

877
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 3: cephalic fins, like opening and closing the cephalic fins over

878
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 3: and over, blowing bubbles into the mirror. And then also

879
00:52:39,640 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 3: what about these unusual quote self directed behaviors? This is

880
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 3: what look to the researchers like the manta trying to

881
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 3: investigate parts of its own body that it can't normally see,

882
00:52:53,080 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 3: like orienting so that it could look at the reflection

883
00:52:56,840 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 3: of its ventral surface if its belly or part of

884
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:03,280
Speaker 3: its back. For example. They note that quote body turns

885
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 3: into a vertical direction, exposing the ventral side of the

886
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 3: body to the mirror while visually oriented to it was

887
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,480
Speaker 3: something that they only ever saw the mantas do when

888
00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 3: the mirror was in the tank. So they take the

889
00:53:16,320 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 3: mirror out, they don't see the mantas doing like orienting

890
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,760
Speaker 3: vertically like this and look. So it's like it looked

891
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 3: to them like they were trying to see parts of

892
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 3: their body that were not ever visible to them otherwise.

893
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:30,880
Speaker 3: So the end of their abstract, they say, quote, the

894
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 3: present study shows evidence for behavioral responses to a mirror

895
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:38,920
Speaker 3: that are prerequisite for a prerequisite of self awareness, and

896
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 3: which has been used to confirm self recognition in apes.

897
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 3: But again the authors do acknowledge the limitations. You know,

898
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:50,160
Speaker 3: this doesn't necessarily prove self awareness this version of the test.

899
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 3: Of course, it did not include the mark checking component,

900
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 3: And there are multiple ways you could interpret their behavior

901
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,719
Speaker 3: in front of the mirror. It's possible they didn't recognize

902
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:04,080
Speaker 3: it as themselves and we're just reacting with curiosity to

903
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:08,839
Speaker 3: something visually unusual. Though, the behaviors that look like, you know,

904
00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 3: checking out your belly flesh only when the mirror is around,

905
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 3: that does sound pretty interesting to me.

906
00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, oh man, Yeah, I have a couple of

907
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,960
Speaker 1: thoughts on all of this, Like, on one level, I

908
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 1: have to say that, you know, so like the hard

909
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 1: science aside I do like the idea of leaning into

910
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 1: interpretations of animals as being more conscious and having you know,

911
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:36,080
Speaker 1: if there's a case to be made, I'm like, let's

912
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 1: go ahead and consider it, because if it helps protect

913
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:42,880
Speaker 1: a species like this, then all the better. On the

914
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:44,960
Speaker 1: other hand, like just the idea of let's let's go

915
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 1: ahead and assume for the sake of argument that the

916
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 1: manta does recognize the reflection as itself. What is that

917
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:54,400
Speaker 1: like for a creat Now granted, this is an aquarium scenario,

918
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 1: so with the glass involved. There may be some other scenarios.

919
00:54:57,239 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 1: But imagine a purely why old manta that has, as

920
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: far as I'm imagining, it never encountered a reflection of itself,

921
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:09,520
Speaker 1: and then it is presented with one. What would that

922
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:11,240
Speaker 1: be like? What would that be like for a human

923
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 1: being if we managed to make it to adulthood without

924
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:18,359
Speaker 1: ever encountering an unnatural mirror reflection or something like it,

925
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:21,360
Speaker 1: say on the surface of water. I mean, I have

926
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 1: no doubt that we'd be able to pass it. I mean,

927
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:28,600
Speaker 1: that's certainly part of the human mental capabilities, But man,

928
00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 1: what would that what would that encounter be like?

929
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:32,879
Speaker 3: But the human I think, you know, you can see

930
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 3: a lot of your own body, not the whole thing,

931
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 3: got a lot of back and then you got a

932
00:55:37,840 --> 00:55:39,800
Speaker 3: face and head and I guess all that. But you

933
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 3: can see at least like the front of your body. Yeah.

934
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 3: The mantas, I don't know can they even see that? Again,

935
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 3: it seems like they were very interested in checking out

936
00:55:47,640 --> 00:55:51,359
Speaker 3: their their ventral side here, so they may have very

937
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 3: very little visual awareness of themselves within their space. Ever,

938
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:59,799
Speaker 3: maybe all kind of like only a proprioceptive awareness of

939
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:03,239
Speaker 3: their own body. Again, I'm not sure of that, but

940
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:05,520
Speaker 3: that's it seems plausible.

941
00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:09,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think it's fascinating. Now, we kept talking

942
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:12,080
Speaker 1: about their their bellies, their ventral side, So I want

943
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:14,840
Speaker 1: to come back to this as we're closing out here.

944
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 1: As we've mentioned, some mantas have distinct appearances because of

945
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:26,080
Speaker 1: significant scarring, you know, scarring from matings, scarring from predator interactions.

946
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,360
Speaker 1: And then you have mantas such as the celebrity manta

947
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 1: Baba Ganoosh of the Maldives that apparently survived a rather

948
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:36,360
Speaker 1: horrific boat strike. You can look up images of this one.

949
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:40,480
Speaker 1: So these individuals you tend to stand out. But as

950
00:56:40,480 --> 00:56:43,840
Speaker 1: we've discussed, their wounds tend to heal rapidly, you know,

951
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 1: maybe not completely, and certainly in the case of severe injuries,

952
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:50,240
Speaker 1: not completely. But on the whole, these are changing markers.

953
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 1: What doesn't change, however, are the dark spots on their bellies,

954
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:57,360
Speaker 1: on their ventral side. You can look up, you know,

955
00:56:57,400 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 1: images of this, and if you've been in the water

956
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:03,279
Speaker 1: you might get to observe this as well. But yeah,

957
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:06,239
Speaker 1: you look at the ventral side of a manta and

958
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 1: it is a unique fingerprint, the array of spots and

959
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:13,880
Speaker 1: blotches on their generally white bellies. It is a fingerprint.

960
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 1: It can be used to id a particular manta, and

961
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 1: scientists are able to put these into a database and

962
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 1: track individuals without the aid of actual physical trackers or

963
00:57:24,920 --> 00:57:28,800
Speaker 1: tax And it gets even cooler because you get into

964
00:57:28,840 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 1: like a citizen scientist scenario here, because you have the

965
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:37,360
Speaker 1: global ID the Manta photo database, which via this database,

966
00:57:37,440 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 1: anyone who swims in proximity to mantas. Again, I'm assuming

967
00:57:43,640 --> 00:57:46,160
Speaker 1: by following all the rules, but if you manage to

968
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 1: get a photos, particularly of their spots, they can I

969
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:51,560
Speaker 1: think other parts of the manta can also prove useful,

970
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 1: but especially their spots. They can be uploaded into the

971
00:57:54,560 --> 00:57:57,240
Speaker 1: database and this can be used to help study their

972
00:57:57,240 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 1: movements and their behavior. And yeah, you can learn more

973
00:58:00,880 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 1: about this at Manta Trust dot org. I believe we've

974
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 1: referred to the Manta Trust already, and i'd say, in general,

975
00:58:08,280 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 1: if you've been moved at all by anything we've discussed

976
00:58:10,760 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 1: in these episodes about the manta, the plight of the manta,

977
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 1: or the majesty of these creatures, visit Manta Trust dot org.

978
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 1: You can learn more about them, you can sign up

979
00:58:20,560 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 1: for their newsletter. You can support their work via donations

980
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:27,360
Speaker 1: and purchases. In fact, that book that I've been referring to,

981
00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 1: Guide to the Manta and Devil Rays of the World,

982
00:58:29,320 --> 00:58:32,680
Speaker 1: is available to purchase there. And even if you don't

983
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:36,480
Speaker 1: purchase it directly from them, royalties from that book go

984
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:39,480
Speaker 1: to the Manta Trust. You can even this is this

985
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 1: is super cool. You can of course adopt a manta.

986
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:44,840
Speaker 1: This is not uncommon. You can, you know, and but

987
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:49,320
Speaker 1: you can also pay to name a specific Maldives manta

988
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:51,840
Speaker 1: in their database. I was looking at this on their

989
00:58:51,840 --> 00:58:54,280
Speaker 1: website I think they had like four up for grabs.

990
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 1: So these are mantas that have, you know, like a

991
00:58:56,720 --> 00:58:59,680
Speaker 1: technical tag like a you know, a string of numbers

992
00:58:59,720 --> 00:59:03,120
Speaker 1: in a life, but they don't have a fun name yet.

993
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 1: And for a very reasonable donation, you can provide a

994
00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:09,040
Speaker 1: name for such a Manta Ray.

995
00:59:09,160 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 3: Do they place any limits on how stupid the name

996
00:59:11,360 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 3: can be?

997
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I mean there may be

998
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 1: some reasonable limits there. I mean I would place reasonable

999
00:59:18,480 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 1: limits if I were running this, but uh but yeah,

1000
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 1: I mean it makes me I kind of want to

1001
00:59:23,080 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 1: adopt a Manta Ray for the show. We could call it,

1002
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:28,560
Speaker 1: I don't know, Blowfield, Stuffington or something. I wouldn't want

1003
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 1: it to be a complete.

1004
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:33,439
Speaker 3: Advertiser Delia the self Aware.

1005
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 1: There you go at any rate check it out listeners.

1006
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:39,840
Speaker 1: If you happen to adopt a Manta Ray or or

1007
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 1: name a Manta Ray via this website, let us know,

1008
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 1: and we will. We will spread the will spread the word,

1009
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 1: and we'll we'll also look this Manta Ray up and

1010
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:48,560
Speaker 1: see what they look like.

1011
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

1012
00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:52,160
Speaker 3: Let us know.

1013
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:55,920
Speaker 1: All right, we're gonna go ahead and close these episodes out.

1014
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 1: I hope you've enjoyed them again. We'd love to hear

1015
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 1: from everyone out there. You have any experiences with Manta's,

1016
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:06,560
Speaker 1: other rays, thoughts, and anything we've discussed here, write in Yeah,

1017
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 1: send your photos. We'd love to see photos. We heard

1018
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 1: from some snorkers already, but not the sort of snorkelers

1019
01:00:12,080 --> 01:00:14,960
Speaker 1: I was imagining. We'll get to that in a future

1020
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:17,600
Speaker 1: listener mail episode. But we heard from some bog snorklers.

1021
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 3: Is that a joke? I couldn't tell.

1022
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:21,400
Speaker 1: I could not tell. I haven't had a chance to

1023
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:24,200
Speaker 1: research it yet, but I flagged that one to come

1024
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:26,840
Speaker 1: back to. If it was a joke, it was elaborate.

1025
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 1: Those were I think real photos.

1026
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:30,480
Speaker 3: We'll learn more and report.

1027
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:33,000
Speaker 1: Just a reminder to everyone that's stuff to blow your mind.

1028
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 1: Is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes

1029
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:38,640
Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays, short form episodes on Wednesdays and

1030
01:00:38,680 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 1: on Fridays. We set aside most serious concerns to just

1031
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 1: talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema.

1032
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 3: Huge things as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

1033
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

1034
01:00:49,400 --> 01:00:51,880
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1035
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:53,880
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello.

1036
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:56,680
Speaker 3: You can email us at contact a stuff to Blow

1037
01:00:56,680 --> 01:01:05,280
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

1038
01:01:05,400 --> 01:01:08,360
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

1039
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1040
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 2: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.