1
00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:15,040
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. In just moments, we expect

2
00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:22,520
Speaker 1: Brian Coburger, charged in the murders, the brutal murders of

3
00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:29,560
Speaker 1: four Beautiful University Idaho students, will be in a court

4
00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:35,720
Speaker 1: of law to enter a plea. Why because in the

5
00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:40,120
Speaker 1: last days, a grand jury, a secret grand jury, has

6
00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:45,239
Speaker 1: met and handed down a trivial indictments. But that's not

7
00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:49,000
Speaker 1: enough for Brian Coburger. Because in the last days, we

8
00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:56,400
Speaker 1: also learned that Brian Coburger, remember the pH d, the

9
00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:07,480
Speaker 1: doctoral student in criminal justice, apparently installed surveillance video cameras

10
00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:11,720
Speaker 1: and a female colleague's home that he could tap into

11
00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:18,679
Speaker 1: any time he wanted. Let me throw a technical legal

12
00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:24,399
Speaker 1: term at you, perv I Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.

13
00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:26,680
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation

14
00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,640
Speaker 1: and Serrius XM one eleven. First of all, take a

15
00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,000
Speaker 1: listen to our friends at kri em So.

16
00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:34,919
Speaker 2: I just got off the phone with the Leaytak County

17
00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,080
Speaker 2: District Court Clerk's office. They told me a grand jury

18
00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,280
Speaker 2: indicted Brian Coburger on all counts. That means the grand

19
00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:43,720
Speaker 2: jury found there was enough evidence in the case for

20
00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,440
Speaker 2: it to go to trial. Now, Coburger will have his

21
00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,600
Speaker 2: arrayment on Monday at nine o'clock in the morning. That

22
00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:51,960
Speaker 2: is where he will likely enter his plea of either

23
00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:55,600
Speaker 2: guilty or not guilty. This grand jury process replaces the

24
00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,680
Speaker 2: preliminary hearing process that was scheduled for the end of June.

25
00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:01,280
Speaker 1: That's what we know right now and more from our

26
00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:04,880
Speaker 1: friends at ABC, just hours away from Brian Coberger's official

27
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,280
Speaker 1: arraignment for the murders of Kailee Gonsolves, Madison Mogan, Xana Kernodle,

28
00:02:09,360 --> 00:02:10,400
Speaker 1: and Ethan Chapin.

29
00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,040
Speaker 3: The twenty eight year old suspect facing four counts of

30
00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:15,639
Speaker 3: murder in the first degree after his indictment by a

31
00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:18,560
Speaker 3: Leta County grand jury. Right now, although we seem to

32
00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,359
Speaker 3: have mounting evidence against mister Kohlberger, it's still anyone's game

33
00:02:22,440 --> 00:02:24,560
Speaker 3: because there's a lot of information that the defense is

34
00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:27,800
Speaker 3: going to hold and not release to the public. Coburger

35
00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:32,160
Speaker 3: is expected to plead not guilty. Authorities alleged Coburger orchestrated

36
00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,760
Speaker 3: and carried out the deadly attack and then returned to

37
00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,560
Speaker 3: work pursuing his PhD in criminology before making a cross

38
00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,760
Speaker 3: country trip home to Pennsylvania with his father a.

39
00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,800
Speaker 1: Lot of evidence the defense is going to withhold and

40
00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:51,200
Speaker 1: kp private. What does the defense have in their back

41
00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:56,280
Speaker 1: pocket any more? Women with surveillance cameras in their bathroom

42
00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,000
Speaker 1: and their dead and their kitchen and their bedroom with

43
00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:00,880
Speaker 1: me and all Star panel sins of what we know

44
00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,480
Speaker 1: right now? First of all, I want to go out

45
00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:07,919
Speaker 1: to Tara Malik out of Idaho, the jurisdiction where Coburger

46
00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,720
Speaker 1: is about to be arraigned, a former state federal prosecutor,

47
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:16,240
Speaker 1: and you can find Tara at Smithmlick dot com. Tara,

48
00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:21,360
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us an arrayment. It sounds confusing,

49
00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:25,880
Speaker 1: it's not. The defendant is brought over from jail. If

50
00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,320
Speaker 1: they are on bond, they get a summons and they

51
00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:31,480
Speaker 1: come to court or else they're in bond forfeiter, and

52
00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,240
Speaker 1: they are taken to a podium. Their attorneys are with

53
00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:38,320
Speaker 1: them and they are read their formal charges, and at

54
00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,880
Speaker 1: that time they enter a plea of guilty or not guilty.

55
00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:45,680
Speaker 1: If they won't speak, their lawyer can enter the plea

56
00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,680
Speaker 1: for them, and if they refuse to do that, then

57
00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,120
Speaker 1: the judge will enter a not guilty plea on their behalf.

58
00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,400
Speaker 1: What do you expect at the arrangement. You're a veteran

59
00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:57,120
Speaker 1: trial lawyer.

60
00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:59,840
Speaker 4: What about it, Tara, Well, I think we are going

61
00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:03,800
Speaker 4: to see a very boring process. Most likely he's going

62
00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,320
Speaker 4: to show up with his attorney, Ann Taylor. He'll enter

63
00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,680
Speaker 4: a guilty or not guilty please. You know, he may

64
00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:15,040
Speaker 4: have some interesting body language. It'll be interesting to say

65
00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:18,520
Speaker 4: if he has any facial expressions during the hearing, but

66
00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,800
Speaker 4: it'll be rather straightforward, like you said, Nancy.

67
00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,440
Speaker 1: You know Chris mcdonnet joining me, Director the Cold Case Foundation,

68
00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:30,719
Speaker 1: former homicide detective, host of the interview Room, and you

69
00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,200
Speaker 1: can find him at the Coldcase Foundation dot org. Chris,

70
00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,080
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I am not found

71
00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:46,159
Speaker 1: one thing about this investigation to be the least bit routine, boring.

72
00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:52,680
Speaker 1: As expected, nothing has happened the way one would expect

73
00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:56,120
Speaker 1: it to happen, and that's after I guess I handled

74
00:04:56,560 --> 00:05:02,200
Speaker 1: close to ten thousand cases either investigating pleading out trials.

75
00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:09,560
Speaker 1: When you're in a major metropolitan city handling felonies day in,

76
00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,680
Speaker 1: day out, that's not unheard of. There will be many

77
00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:17,920
Speaker 1: other people, most likely on the arrangment list. Typically, well,

78
00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:22,440
Speaker 1: in big cities, you'll have arrangements throughout the week. We

79
00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,520
Speaker 1: would typically have them twice a week, with one hundred

80
00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,200
Speaker 1: and fifty new cases on the on the arrayment calendar

81
00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:34,120
Speaker 1: each day. So when I talk about what's happening at arrangment,

82
00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:39,880
Speaker 1: this could be special set for Coburger, just Coburger, but

83
00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,839
Speaker 1: you never know what Coburger is going to do.

84
00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:45,480
Speaker 5: Would you agree with that?

85
00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:49,080
Speaker 6: McDonough absolutely, Nancy, and we have been talking about this

86
00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:54,360
Speaker 6: right on your show for months now, and every opportunity

87
00:05:55,320 --> 00:06:00,640
Speaker 6: that he gets it is always a surprise relationship to

88
00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,200
Speaker 6: if it's his legal team, you know, putting the affidavits

89
00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,920
Speaker 6: together to kind of circumvent the gag order. We now

90
00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:13,640
Speaker 6: find out that information was pretty much a tactic, and

91
00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,120
Speaker 6: now we have this other information that's floated to the top.

92
00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,920
Speaker 6: It won't surprise me if he raises his eyebrows just

93
00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,159
Speaker 6: for the attention, because he needs that attention. It's part

94
00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:25,680
Speaker 6: of his makeup right now, you know.

95
00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:27,159
Speaker 5: It's another interesting thing.

96
00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,600
Speaker 1: And I to go back out to Charle Malleck, high

97
00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:34,000
Speaker 1: profile lawyer joining us out of the Coburger jurisdiction of Idaho.

98
00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,720
Speaker 1: For so long we were told there was going to

99
00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:41,599
Speaker 1: be a preliminary hearing and I started screaming at the

100
00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:43,880
Speaker 1: get go, don't do it, don't do it.

101
00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:44,520
Speaker 5: Don't do a.

102
00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:49,719
Speaker 1: Preliminary hearing, because a preliminary hearing serves the same function

103
00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:53,000
Speaker 1: as a grand jury proceeding, which is held in private.

104
00:06:53,680 --> 00:06:56,279
Speaker 5: Do we have to say the name OJ.

105
00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:02,000
Speaker 1: Simpson preliminary hearing, which was a huge orcus the states

106
00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:07,000
Speaker 1: witnesses were really not ready to undergo cross examination as

107
00:07:07,040 --> 00:07:07,480
Speaker 1: if they.

108
00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:08,840
Speaker 5: Were at a jury trial.

109
00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:13,400
Speaker 1: A preliminary hearing of grandjury hearing is just to put

110
00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,160
Speaker 1: enough evidence up for a judge to say, yes, I see,

111
00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,280
Speaker 1: there's an issue of fact. You brought on this evidence

112
00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:23,120
Speaker 1: such as the DNA found on the knife sheath that

113
00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:27,560
Speaker 1: matches Coburger. Coburger says he wasn't there. He's not guilty,

114
00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,840
Speaker 1: So that's an issue of fact, and the jury is

115
00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:33,160
Speaker 1: the sole judge of the facts.

116
00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:34,840
Speaker 5: That's all it's supposed to be.

117
00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:40,840
Speaker 1: But somehow preliminary hearings somehow get out of control every

118
00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:42,000
Speaker 1: single time they happen.

119
00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:43,480
Speaker 5: Tara, Yeah, it's true.

120
00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,200
Speaker 4: I mean, every time you open it up into this

121
00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:50,960
Speaker 4: full kind of adversarial process you're going to have, you're

122
00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:53,520
Speaker 4: going to have things happen that happened during trial, you

123
00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,400
Speaker 4: can't predict perfectly what every witness is going to say.

124
00:07:57,320 --> 00:07:59,840
Speaker 4: You know, you don't know what the defense will try

125
00:07:59,840 --> 00:08:03,600
Speaker 4: and elicit out of them. So I think the best

126
00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,400
Speaker 4: way to go in these types of cases is grand

127
00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,960
Speaker 4: jury proceeding. There's no reason why you shouldn't do a

128
00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,160
Speaker 4: grand jury. Like you said, it's in private. You know,

129
00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:15,880
Speaker 4: the defense gets a transcript of it later on they

130
00:08:15,880 --> 00:08:18,679
Speaker 4: can attack it if they think the prosecutor did something wrong.

131
00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,040
Speaker 4: So there's still that due process element. But to open

132
00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:24,960
Speaker 4: it up to this full addressllual, you're going to get

133
00:08:25,000 --> 00:08:27,640
Speaker 4: the same issues that are kind of coming up or

134
00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,440
Speaker 4: started to come up in Coburger, where defense is going

135
00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,760
Speaker 4: to demand all sorts of you know, information prior to

136
00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,960
Speaker 4: the preliminary hearing and move to compel that information. We

137
00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:41,000
Speaker 4: haven't even gotten to discovery really yet.

138
00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:44,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, And when Taro Malick is saying discovery, what that

139
00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:48,600
Speaker 1: means is that before you go to trial strike because

140
00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,920
Speaker 1: you already start putting up evidence. The state has to

141
00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:58,000
Speaker 1: hand over, for instance, all scientific reports like DNA fingerprints, fibers,

142
00:08:58,280 --> 00:08:59,320
Speaker 1: shape prints.

143
00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:03,239
Speaker 5: Anything that went to the lab. They have to handover.

144
00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:08,240
Speaker 1: Defendant statements, they have to handover names and addresses of

145
00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,040
Speaker 1: all the witnesses, plus a witness list. All that has

146
00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,800
Speaker 1: to be handed over by the state to the defense,

147
00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,960
Speaker 1: and in many jurisdictions the defense has to hand over

148
00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:23,120
Speaker 1: limited information to the state, so nobody is ambushed at trial.

149
00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,440
Speaker 1: So it's truly a trial based on the evidence, not

150
00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,320
Speaker 1: on ambush techniques. Guys, this is what's happening right now.

151
00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:35,120
Speaker 1: Coburger expected in a courtroom at any minute to enter

152
00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,200
Speaker 1: a plea of guilty or not guilty, to have his

153
00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,680
Speaker 1: charges formally read out loud in a court of law.

154
00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,560
Speaker 1: We're probably going to hear a flory of motions announced.

155
00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,360
Speaker 1: The defense, I'm sure, is going to want a slew

156
00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:53,439
Speaker 1: of motions to be heard, and then we begin setting

157
00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:57,280
Speaker 1: down the groundwork for the trial. We are also learning

158
00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:00,960
Speaker 1: at this hour that Coburger is an out accused of

159
00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:07,319
Speaker 1: planting video cameras that he could access and a colleague

160
00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:11,520
Speaker 1: a female colleague's place. But first take listen to Aaron

161
00:10:11,640 --> 00:10:12,880
Speaker 1: McLoughlin NBC.

162
00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,600
Speaker 7: Brian Coburger, the man charged with stabbing four college students

163
00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:18,800
Speaker 7: to death, now indicted.

164
00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:19,520
Speaker 5: By a grand jury.

165
00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:22,880
Speaker 7: The indictment includes four counts of murder in the first degree,

166
00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,080
Speaker 7: and one count of burglary. If found guilty, he could

167
00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:29,400
Speaker 7: be sentenced to death. Coburger has yet to enter a plea,

168
00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,520
Speaker 7: but his previous attorney said he believes he'll be exonerated.

169
00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,000
Speaker 7: The indictment follows his December arrest at his family home

170
00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:39,480
Speaker 7: in Pennsylvania, more than forty five days after Matti Mogan,

171
00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:44,240
Speaker 7: Kaylee Gonsalvez, Xana Karnodle, and Ethan Chapin were found brutally

172
00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:46,040
Speaker 7: murdered in this college house.

173
00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:51,520
Speaker 1: Kri And reporting that the victims' families have issues with

174
00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:52,719
Speaker 1: what's happening right now.

175
00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:55,400
Speaker 5: Listen. Gray says he found out about the indictment. Up

176
00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:58,560
Speaker 5: until then, he says, the Gonzalvez family has been preparing

177
00:10:58,640 --> 00:11:01,839
Speaker 5: to see Coburger in June. A timeline you already had

178
00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:02,400
Speaker 5: a problem with.

179
00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,640
Speaker 8: Once you charge someone with an information, you normally a

180
00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,120
Speaker 8: plumb their hearings within a couple of weeks out, and

181
00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,880
Speaker 8: they said six months out, you know, And I don't

182
00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:17,360
Speaker 8: think that really was of you know, It's that's hard

183
00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:20,079
Speaker 8: for a victims families, for all the victims families, that's hard.

184
00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:38,000
Speaker 1: Prime Stories with Nancy Grace to doctor Johnson joining as

185
00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:43,680
Speaker 1: forensic psychologists private investigator, performs assessments on violent offenders and

186
00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,440
Speaker 1: is the author of Serial Killers.

187
00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:48,360
Speaker 5: One hundred and one questions.

188
00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,640
Speaker 1: True crime fans ask doctor Joni Johnson, thank you for

189
00:11:51,679 --> 00:11:55,880
Speaker 1: being with us. I hear what the victims are saying.

190
00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,719
Speaker 1: It seems as if they were prepared to attend the

191
00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:05,559
Speaker 1: preliminary hearing. Instead, there is a grand jury proceeding that's

192
00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:08,920
Speaker 1: already happened, which I think is in the best interest

193
00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:12,800
Speaker 1: of the state and the victims families.

194
00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,679
Speaker 5: And they say that this is difficult.

195
00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:18,319
Speaker 9: I can't even imagine how difficult.

196
00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:19,520
Speaker 5: Here's the reality.

197
00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,920
Speaker 1: The grand jury move was the best thing strategically for

198
00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:28,160
Speaker 1: the state and for the victim's families. I think basically

199
00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:32,680
Speaker 1: anything at this juncture is going to be really hard

200
00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,800
Speaker 1: on the victim's family. Talking about the murders having to

201
00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:39,760
Speaker 1: see Coburger in court, going to a preliminary hearing, that

202
00:12:39,760 --> 00:12:43,200
Speaker 1: there's been a grand jury indictment. Anything is going to

203
00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,439
Speaker 1: be hard for them because they're having the worst time

204
00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:48,720
Speaker 1: that they will ever have in their lives.

205
00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,120
Speaker 9: You're absolutely right, and I think that just shows probably

206
00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,360
Speaker 9: the disconnect between what is best strategically from a legal

207
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:58,000
Speaker 9: standpoint and what the family's feeling, and you're absolutely right.

208
00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:00,520
Speaker 9: I mean, this is the worst case scenario. They've had

209
00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,080
Speaker 9: no control over anything in their lives. They've lost the

210
00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:07,079
Speaker 9: most important people in their lives, and now they're getting surprised,

211
00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:10,040
Speaker 9: you know, and so nothing is going to feel good.

212
00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,080
Speaker 9: Everything is going to be painful, and I'm sure every

213
00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:13,640
Speaker 9: bump in the road for them, and of course a

214
00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,240
Speaker 9: surprise is going to be a bump in the road

215
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:18,680
Speaker 9: no matter how much the big picture says, yes, this

216
00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,240
Speaker 9: is the best thing. It must feel like again once again,

217
00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:24,000
Speaker 9: the rug is being pulled out from under them.

218
00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a lose lose scenario for the state

219
00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:31,720
Speaker 1: because no matter what they do, it's going to hurt

220
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:36,400
Speaker 1: the victims, their feelings, their emotions, and there's no way

221
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,520
Speaker 1: around it. I want to play that one more time,

222
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:44,040
Speaker 1: exactly what the victims and and this is specifically the

223
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:48,920
Speaker 1: gonsalvast family. They are the ones speaking out against what's happening. Listen,

224
00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,040
Speaker 1: Gray says he found out about the indictment. Up until then,

225
00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,000
Speaker 1: he says, the Gonzalvez family has been preparing to see

226
00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,480
Speaker 1: Coburger in June, a timeline he already had a problem with.

227
00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,240
Speaker 8: Once you charge someone with an on an information, you

228
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,520
Speaker 8: normally plumb their hearings within a couple of weeks out,

229
00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,760
Speaker 8: and they said six months out, you know, and I

230
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:12,800
Speaker 8: don't think that really was of you know, it's that's

231
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,680
Speaker 8: hard for a victim's families, for all the victims families,

232
00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:16,120
Speaker 8: that's hard.

233
00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:21,040
Speaker 1: Okay, someone is not explaining this properly to the victims

234
00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:25,480
Speaker 1: family number one, and Tara jump in if I've got

235
00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:31,000
Speaker 1: the Idaho law incorrectly. An information is when a prosecutor

236
00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,120
Speaker 1: gets their notepad all on their own and they went, okay,

237
00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,160
Speaker 1: I've read the police report. I'm charging Coburger with four

238
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:44,160
Speaker 1: council murder, and that's the formal charge. You don't want that. Yes,

239
00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,160
Speaker 1: it's acceptable in a court of law, but you don't

240
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:52,119
Speaker 1: want that on appeal. A grand jury is much more reliable.

241
00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,440
Speaker 1: A grand jury of say thirty or forty people, hearing

242
00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:58,800
Speaker 1: the evidence and hearing witnesses is much more reliable and

243
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,600
Speaker 1: solid on appeal when it's being attacked by a defense lawyer,

244
00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:05,800
Speaker 1: then a single prosecutor going eh, I think I'll go with.

245
00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:09,120
Speaker 5: Murder and four accounts. No, don't do that.

246
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:14,840
Speaker 1: So initially drawing this up as an information was basically

247
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,440
Speaker 1: a placeholder. I think they knew all along they were

248
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:23,200
Speaker 1: going to have a grand jury.

249
00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,720
Speaker 5: So that needs to be explained to the family.

250
00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,720
Speaker 1: We want a conviction, as victims' families, we want a

251
00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:32,560
Speaker 1: conviction that will hold up on appeal, not a quick

252
00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:37,520
Speaker 1: answer that we'll do for today. We want something lasting,

253
00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,520
Speaker 1: that is tried and true, that can stand the test

254
00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:44,360
Speaker 1: of fire on appeal when it is questioned and poked

255
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,120
Speaker 1: and prodded. So the state absolutely did the right thing,

256
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,040
Speaker 1: not proceeding on what it's called an information or an

257
00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:54,920
Speaker 1: informational They went to a grand jury. Now again, the

258
00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,680
Speaker 1: reason not to have a preliminary hearing is because it

259
00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:03,880
Speaker 1: subjects your witnesses is to cross examination far in advance

260
00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,200
Speaker 1: to the jury trial. Why do that? Why put them

261
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,560
Speaker 1: through that? And why show the defanced your whole playbook at.

262
00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:10,360
Speaker 5: A preliminary hearing?

263
00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:15,080
Speaker 1: Again, does anybody remember, I mean, Chris mcdunno, do you

264
00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:20,120
Speaker 1: remember the Orenthal James sent some preliminary hearing. It truly

265
00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:22,960
Speaker 1: was like a circus. There should have been one witness,

266
00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:28,000
Speaker 1: the lead detective, who can speak hearsay at a grand

267
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:32,640
Speaker 1: jury and that's okay at a grand jury. Instead it

268
00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,840
Speaker 1: turned into a debacle. We don't want a debacle in

269
00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:36,880
Speaker 1: the Coburger trial.

270
00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,400
Speaker 6: One percent agree with you, Nancy that you know, in

271
00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,680
Speaker 6: the Oja trial, as we remember, you know, you're one

272
00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:49,120
Speaker 6: hundred percent right, it did turn into you know, it's

273
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,360
Speaker 6: just this unbelievable flow of information going one way. And

274
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,160
Speaker 6: I think one of the challenges that the PD has

275
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,200
Speaker 6: had here, I mean from an investigative aspect is, you know,

276
00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,560
Speaker 6: they really do need to assign a liaison. I don't

277
00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,320
Speaker 6: know what they have or haven't, but it sounds like

278
00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:09,320
Speaker 6: they haven't. And you know, you've got to do that

279
00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:13,399
Speaker 6: immediately when these high profile things go, you know, take place,

280
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:15,840
Speaker 6: and you've got to get everybody in the same room

281
00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,359
Speaker 6: and say, look, we need to go into that courtroom

282
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:23,280
Speaker 6: and you know, armed arm in arm with the district attorney.

283
00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:26,119
Speaker 6: I mean, how many families have you seen in your career, Nancy,

284
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:30,000
Speaker 6: where you're fighting the family and you're trying to fight

285
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:31,919
Speaker 6: the defendant at the same time.

286
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,080
Speaker 5: That is awful. Chris McDonough.

287
00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,480
Speaker 1: The family needs to be in lockstep with the prosecutor,

288
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:44,600
Speaker 1: and that is not the family's responsibility. You're right, there

289
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,399
Speaker 1: needs to be a liaison because remember what I just

290
00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:52,800
Speaker 1: played you from the Gonsolvest family lawyer Gray Gray found

291
00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:57,000
Speaker 1: out about the indictment through an email. That's all wrong

292
00:17:57,119 --> 00:17:57,560
Speaker 1: right there.

293
00:17:57,720 --> 00:17:58,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's that's horre.

294
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,879
Speaker 1: Prosecutor or the liaison that you're referring to, should have

295
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,840
Speaker 1: called the family look and said, look, we're having a

296
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,080
Speaker 1: grand jury, and this is why this is the best thing.

297
00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,520
Speaker 1: Because I'm miss screaming since day one. They do not

298
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,280
Speaker 1: need to do a preliminary hearing. N Oh, just fraught

299
00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:17,840
Speaker 1: with danger. Guys, that's not the only thing happening in

300
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,639
Speaker 1: the news right now regarding Coburger. As we wait for

301
00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:23,240
Speaker 1: him to come into the courtroom, let's take a listen

302
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,360
Speaker 1: to our friend Kelly Beeson.

303
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:30,720
Speaker 10: Rian Coberger was involved in another crime that happened before

304
00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:33,800
Speaker 10: these murders. Now, this incident involved his female coworker at

305
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,520
Speaker 10: Washington State University, where someone allegedly broke into the woman's

306
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,280
Speaker 10: apartment and moved things around. Instead of calling police, the

307
00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:46,200
Speaker 10: coworker called Coburger, who suggested and helped her install security cameras.

308
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,560
Speaker 10: But the report says Coburger was behind that break in

309
00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,280
Speaker 10: and use those cameras to spy on her. It just

310
00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:58,040
Speaker 10: gets worse It's not that he just helped his doll

311
00:18:58,080 --> 00:18:59,640
Speaker 10: these security video cameras.

312
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:04,160
Speaker 1: I actually think he faked a break in to get

313
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,480
Speaker 1: her to get the cameras.

314
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:11,960
Speaker 5: It's very intricate in the planning. Joining me right now.

315
00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,359
Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Nicole Parton. You can

316
00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:20,200
Speaker 1: find her on Twitter at Nicole Parton. Nicole, What happened?

317
00:19:20,320 --> 00:19:24,440
Speaker 11: So Nancy? Brian Colberger, he befriended this colleague of his

318
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,959
Speaker 11: at Washington State University, and then it's alleged that he

319
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,560
Speaker 11: went to her home, broke into her home and would

320
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,440
Speaker 11: move things around. He didn't steal anything, but imagine going

321
00:19:35,480 --> 00:19:38,040
Speaker 11: into your home and now your sofa is moved from

322
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,760
Speaker 11: one place to the other, or your phone or things

323
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,280
Speaker 11: that you've had placed in a particular spot or moved around.

324
00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:47,320
Speaker 11: It spooked the lady. So she comes back to work

325
00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,000
Speaker 11: and she talks to her friend Brian, and he of

326
00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:52,920
Speaker 11: course suggests that he come over and he saved the

327
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:57,560
Speaker 11: day when he got there. His suggestion was surveillance. You

328
00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:00,320
Speaker 11: need cameras installed in your home and get guess what,

329
00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:03,399
Speaker 11: I'm the guy for the job. I can install those.

330
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:08,080
Speaker 11: It's alleged that he installed the security surveillance videos, and

331
00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,560
Speaker 11: because he had access now to the passwords and to

332
00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,480
Speaker 11: her WiFi, he was able to log in and spy

333
00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 11: on her throughout her home.

334
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 1: Every person in this studio has a is making a

335
00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 1: face right now, and I know it horrible face. Uh,

336
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:29,040
Speaker 1: and it's very very I believe probed to proves something.

337
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:35,439
Speaker 1: Chris McDonough that this alleged incident of him moving the

338
00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:41,080
Speaker 1: woman's objects around inside of her apartment to make her afraid.

339
00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:46,000
Speaker 1: Then she comes and tells him at work, and just

340
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 1: as he is expected for, he expects this.

341
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:50,560
Speaker 5: Scenario to happen.

342
00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,639
Speaker 1: He then, as Nicole Parton says, saves the Dan goes

343
00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:58,120
Speaker 1: let's install video cams. Finish that sentence, so I can

344
00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 1: snoop and spy on you and watch you change clothes

345
00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:03,000
Speaker 1: and take a shower whenever I feel like it. Here's

346
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,680
Speaker 1: the critical part as it relates to the four murders.

347
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:10,400
Speaker 1: This incident allegedly took place just a few months before

348
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 1: the four murders.

349
00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,600
Speaker 5: So what does that mean to you?

350
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,520
Speaker 6: To Chris McDonough, well, there's a high probability this is

351
00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:28,119
Speaker 6: information that indicates pre incident behavior. And you know a

352
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,879
Speaker 6: Leffard doesn't lose its spots, right, Nancy. When we've talked

353
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,640
Speaker 6: about this, you've talked about this, You've stood on that

354
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,960
Speaker 6: driveway looking in look through those windows in the back

355
00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,680
Speaker 6: of that house, and I think you and I both

356
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,520
Speaker 6: had the shame feeling of, oh my gosh, this is

357
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:49,640
Speaker 6: so exposed here. And now we learn that he potentially

358
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 6: allegedly used his cloud based technology skills to go into

359
00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:00,400
Speaker 6: a colleague house and up the ante, as Greg Cooper says,

360
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,680
Speaker 6: and it just makes you, It just puts chills down

361
00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 6: your spine of what other incidents are we going to

362
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:13,280
Speaker 6: find about learn about that this guy was, you know,

363
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,560
Speaker 6: really deep into his planning and the fact that he

364
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,920
Speaker 6: could move those items around potentially if it's him, and

365
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,720
Speaker 6: have that control over her. And then ultimately we now

366
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 6: get to the homicides. You know, within a month or

367
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 6: two after this particular incident's reporter.

368
00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 1: Mini would argue it the installing of the cameras and

369
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 1: the spying on the woman in various states of undress,

370
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,880
Speaker 1: puttering around her apartment doing whatever people do in private,

371
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:49,760
Speaker 1: was simply a step in the progression leading up to

372
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,840
Speaker 1: the four murders, where many people believe he spied on

373
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:58,520
Speaker 1: the three female victims end up killing a fourth as well,

374
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 1: Ethan Chapin. But the progression to step in the progression, guys,

375
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,679
Speaker 1: take a listen to our friend at NBC, Keith Morrison.

376
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 12: Our source says Coberger had befriended a woman in his

377
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 12: graduate criminology cohort. The woman had returned to her apartment

378
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 12: one evening and found some things amiss, items moved from

379
00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 12: where she'd left them in the kitchen, in the bath.

380
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 12: Quite bizarre. So what did she do?

381
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 4: Well?

382
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 12: Our source tells us that since nothing had been taken,

383
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,119
Speaker 12: the woman did not call the police. Instead, she called

384
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 12: her new friend, Brian Coberger, who our source says, volunteer

385
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 12: to come over and take a look, and he soon

386
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 12: recommended the installation of a video security system, and he

387
00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 12: Coburger volunteered to do the work.

388
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:57,399
Speaker 1: I mean, doctor Joni Johnston, forensic psychologist, can you believe that?

389
00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:00,240
Speaker 9: Well, I'm fortunately I can't believe that. I mean, it

390
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,400
Speaker 9: just speaks to so many things about him in terms

391
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,679
Speaker 9: of his neediousness and his ability to act. I mean,

392
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 9: this is somebody who befriends a coworker and pretends to

393
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 9: be this nice guy that's up a situation where she's

394
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 9: vulnerable and then takes advantage of it. And I think

395
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,399
Speaker 9: it definitely does speak to him progressing. I mean, this

396
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 9: is a guy who even when he was an undergraduate,

397
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 9: people were saying he was staring at them, and there's

398
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 9: issues of stalking and those kinds of things, and potentially

399
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 9: going to the victims homes and looking in. I mean,

400
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:30,480
Speaker 9: this is somebody who just really does get off on

401
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 9: being in control and not people don't even have to

402
00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 9: know that he's in control. It's enough for him to

403
00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 9: know it.

404
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, just take a listen to our friends at NBC.

405
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 1: This is Keith Marson.

406
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:44,159
Speaker 12: After the installation. Our spur says police believe Colberger, if

407
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,360
Speaker 12: he was close enough to the woman's apartment, could pull

408
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,960
Speaker 12: up the cameras himself for a look, because Coldberger knew

409
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 12: the woman's Wi Fi passwords. Our source tells us that

410
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 12: Brian Kolberger is now considered a strong suspect in the

411
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 12: hearing that retired FBI profiler Greg Cooper offers this theory.

412
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 5: What does that say to you? I would expect that

413
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 5: he orchestrated the whole.

414
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 1: Thing, Okay, orchestrating a break in, not to take anything

415
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: but to manipulate items move them around inside his female

416
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,560
Speaker 1: colleagues apartment, knowing she would come tell him about it

417
00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,240
Speaker 1: and he could offer to put in a surveillance system.

418
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:34,160
Speaker 1: Joining me right now is Bill Daily, former FBI investigator

419
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:39,679
Speaker 1: and expert in forensic photography security expert Bill Daily.

420
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 5: Have you ever heard anything like this, well, Nanjie.

421
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 13: And unfortunately, yes, I mean it is something that over

422
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 13: the years, let's say specifically with somebody manipulating someone, but

423
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,800
Speaker 13: people going in and putting cameras in to be observing

424
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 13: individuals and doing that in a way that doesn't suggest

425
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 13: it was a crime preceding it, meaning that in this case,

426
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 13: he didn't go in and rob the apartment, which would have,

427
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:06,400
Speaker 13: as as mentioned in the story just a few months ago,

428
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 13: would have precipitated more police involvement, but but yet relied

429
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 13: on him then as kind of this kind of savior

430
00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:15,639
Speaker 13: to come in and allegedly, you know, help this individual.

431
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 13: So I have heard of cases and it worked on

432
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 13: cases in the past where where they have been surreptitious

433
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 13: placement of cameras for various purposes, and so it's not

434
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 13: surprising that in this particular case, and I'm going to

435
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 13: kind of draw a little bit on from my my

436
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 13: friends and the behavioral science part of the FBI, But

437
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 13: this does demonstrate and could demonstrate leakage and leakage in

438
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 13: this in this phase is really talking about kind of

439
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 13: this progression, this kind of behavioral kind of uh kind

440
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 13: of progression towards potentially those crimes that took place involving

441
00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 13: these students. So I think what we're all talking about

442
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 13: here is that it's not just creepy, it's not just unsettling,

443
00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 13: but it does go to a kind of a state

444
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 13: of mind and a manner in which she would behave

445
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 13: by perhaps watching someone at a distance. And maybe that

446
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 13: also ties into some of the reports Nancy, that we

447
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 13: heard of him canvassing the home of the victims and

448
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 13: doing some observation remotely and having actually been there to

449
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 13: know what the layout of the flow plan was.

450
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 5: You just mentioned, not just creepy, not just un settling.

451
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:23,919
Speaker 5: I agree.

452
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,679
Speaker 1: In fact, I find it primitive because if you really

453
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: analyze what he's accused of doing, Bill Day, you see

454
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 1: a fingerprint, you see a similar modus operandi method of operation,

455
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:45,919
Speaker 1: watching your victim at a distance, driving close enough to

456
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 1: her home, her apartment, to be part of her WiFi,

457
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:57,120
Speaker 1: logging in possibly from remote, to watch her whenever he

458
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 1: felt like it, praying on some one he knew, much

459
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 1: as he thought he knew the victims at Idaho University

460
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 1: of Idaho from contacting them digitally, spying on them, showing

461
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 1: up at a restaurant where they were being around them.

462
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 5: The victims.

463
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 1: Also young females, likely similar in appearance and age, in

464
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: the same area, in a similar housing situation, connected to

465
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 1: him tangentially that he talks. In my mind, it's an

466
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: outright similar transaction, thought jump Chris, Right, This.

467
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 6: Is all in behavior very consistent with obviously dispossession, right,

468
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 6: And it's kind of a build up for them. I mean,

469
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 6: there's I've talked to suspects that first incident. It's almost

470
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 6: as if, you know, the most exciting part was not

471
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 6: necessarily the kill, but it was building up to that kill.

472
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 6: And one of the things that we talked about on

473
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,959
Speaker 6: your show a while ago was the fact that the

474
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 6: first thing the defense did when they went into that house,

475
00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 6: remember what they took, the first thing that smart TV. Okay,

476
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 6: and that's on their affidavit, and the cops stood there

477
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 6: and said, okay, all they did. You know, they took receipts,

478
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 6: they took a couple other things, but they took that

479
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 6: TV out of there. That makes one wonder what do

480
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 6: they know and what's on that TV? I know they

481
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 6: did a hard drive dump on it through the through

482
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 6: the the what's it called the Firefox or whatever, the

483
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 6: Amazon stick or something to that effect. So they did

484
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 6: a hard dive or a dump on it, but they

485
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 6: got that TV. And so you and I have talked

486
00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 6: about this. You just wonder what in the world, you know,

487
00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,560
Speaker 6: was he really doing from his own apartment that his

488
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,880
Speaker 6: team comes in and says, let's get this quickly.

489
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: I want to give a uh, let me just say,

490
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: I want to refresh your recollection as it relates.

491
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 5: To what this is all about.

492
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: This is about Ethan Chapin, Madison Mogan, Xana kernodle In

493
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: Gellico'savice Kelly, Zana, Madison and Ethan lost their lives brutally

494
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: Prime stories with Nancy Grace.

495
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 5: With me.

496
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: Doctor Janet Gorniac, renowned medical examiner joining us out of

497
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: Clark County Office of the Medical Examiner.

498
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 5: That's Las Vegas.

499
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:23,520
Speaker 1: Doctor Gorniac, could you remind us of the brutality inflicted

500
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: on these four young, possibly sleeping university students.

501
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 9: You know, you keep going back to the oj trial, right,

502
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 9: And when I first heard about this, I too, along

503
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 9: with other other people, who was surprised that one person

504
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 9: was able to accomplish, you know, these injuries on all

505
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 9: these people, whether they were sleeping or not. I'm just

506
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 9: imagining how stealth he was getting into the house and

507
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,440
Speaker 9: just brutally, you know in size who established our force

508
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:06,479
Speaker 9: injuries on these on these young victims. And I just

509
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 9: can't I just can't imagine obviously knowing that the brutality

510
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 9: that he was able to inflict on each of these

511
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 9: young people without any fight back, that makes any sense.

512
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 9: And I, like I said, I was shocked that one

513
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 9: person was able to do this.

514
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: The degree brutality was immeasurable. What were the injuries these

515
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: four victims sustained, Doctor Gorniac.

516
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 9: They had multiple start force injuries. So when you talk

517
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 9: about the stab wounds and size wounds, so obviously in

518
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 9: cases like this, it's just a lot of blood loss. So,

519
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,640
Speaker 9: like I said, it's it's unimaginable that they could have

520
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 9: all these wounds about their body without being able to

521
00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 9: wake up or fight back. It must have been so fast,

522
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 9: you know. I mean, I'm just trying to figure out

523
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 9: how fast and rapid it could have been to be

524
00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 9: able to to injure these young people like that. And

525
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:13,720
Speaker 9: it's interesting because I hear you talking about the preminary

526
00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 9: hearing versus a grand jury, and actually from where I

527
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 9: sit because as an independent witness, even though most of

528
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 9: the times we are called by the prosecuting the prosecutor,

529
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 9: but I myself prefer the pliminary hearing as an expert

530
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 9: because then you know where the defense is coming from.

531
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 9: And it's interesting to see how we're different players in

532
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 9: the whole legal system sit and how we approach it differently.

533
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: Oh Mett, Doctor Gorniac, I understand what you're saying as

534
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: a witness at trial, yep, that you want to know

535
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 1: what's going to happen, and you can at trial, and

536
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 1: you can find that out at a preliminary trial on

537
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: your own cross examination. But most witnesses, doctor Garniac, I know,

538
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: and I'm not even being a tiny bit sarcastic, doctor Garniac.

539
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 1: Most of us are just mere mortals that probably would

540
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:16,239
Speaker 1: not hold up to cross examination as well as you, right,

541
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 1: and as the prosecutor, I don't want to put a

542
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: let's just say, a fearful witness or an easily intimidated witness,

543
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 1: an easily confused witness up on the stand, so the

544
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 1: defense can have not one but two cracks Adam at

545
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: preliminary and the trial.

546
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 5: I mean you would like make you.

547
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 1: Know, child's play of a defense lawyer on cross exam.

548
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: I'd like to see that cross exam myself. I get

549
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: a bag of popcorn for that. But for most witnesses,

550
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 1: you don't want to subject them to two cross exams.

551
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:50,560
Speaker 9: And that's what I would say. I mean, so for me,

552
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 9: as like you said, as the witness, absolutely, but I

553
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 9: can only imagine, as someone who's intimately involved in the case,

554
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:04,439
Speaker 9: how mentally challenging and you know, I mean devastating that

555
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 9: that could have lasing effects.

556
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: I mean, having testified doctor Garneac at my fiance's murder trial,

557
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: I know I wouldn't want to do it twice. I

558
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: absolutely would not want to do it twice.

559
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 9: I agree, And so I see both sides. I see

560
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 9: both sides, and I just want.

561
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: To you know what's interesting, But jumping off what doctor

562
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,239
Speaker 1: Garneac just said, Chris McDonough, I'm just thinking about what

563
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: the witnesses are going to have to go through at

564
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,920
Speaker 1: the actual trial. But I'm thinking about this female witness,

565
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: the colleague that was tricked into having Brian Coburger of

566
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 1: all people in small a security system in her home,

567
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: the video cameras. You know what christmacdonna think about it.

568
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: It was building in him even at that time. This

569
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: is just like a tiny taste of what he was

570
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: capable of. She should thank her lucky stars, thank Heaven

571
00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: that she was not murdered, this female colleague of his.

572
00:35:54,760 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 6: Yeah. Absolutely, And so when we think through that, he

573
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:05,280
Speaker 6: is fantasizing in relationship to you know, the big event.

574
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,320
Speaker 6: You know, as doctor Gary Bricado says, you know, he's

575
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 6: he's eventually going to get to the place where he's

576
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 6: the punisher. And you know, imagine sitting having her sit

577
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 6: in that prelim and in front of him, not knowing

578
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,280
Speaker 6: what he's thinking about her while she's on that stand.

579
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 6: Remember in the oj trial, Barry Sheck had doctor you know,

580
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 6: the criminalist Fong on the stand and every time, you know,

581
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 6: he didn't say he put two sets of pairs of

582
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,320
Speaker 6: gloves on Barry Sheck would say what about that mister Fong,

583
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 6: And that resonated through the law enforcement community back in

584
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 6: that time because I was there where we all started

585
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 6: talking about not getting fonged.

586
00:36:57,120 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 5: Oh my goodness, I've never heard that before.

587
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: I remember what about that mister Fong, but I've never

588
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: heard about not getting fun I'm hearing right now. Everyone

589
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,280
Speaker 1: is headed to the courtroom for the formal arrayment.

590
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,800
Speaker 5: We'll bring it to you as we hear it. Goodbye, friend,