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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. As always, thank you

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Speaker 1: so much for tuning into what we're calling Hallo Wayne,

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Speaker 1: because we will just not let a joke die. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: even an accidental joke that stems from just like a

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Speaker 1: momentary mispronunciation of a very common word. Well, it's been

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Speaker 1: it's probably my Appalachian roots linguistically popping out my accent.

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Speaker 1: But uh, I am thrilled to be joined with you

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Speaker 1: guys again Noel niar Lowthotepe Brown and keep super producer

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Speaker 1: Casey Catulu Pegram. Oh hell yes, guys, I went, uh

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Speaker 1: we we usually try to take a little a quick

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Speaker 1: break between episodes of recording something straight through and I

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Speaker 1: literally ran away and like picked up one of my

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Speaker 1: HP Lovecraft books and I was like, I know there's

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Speaker 1: something here. So I apologize for being late. I tried

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Speaker 1: to know. I really wanted to nail that pronunciation for you.

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Speaker 1: Uh Nyarla though, tep, Yeah, how about I got one

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Speaker 1: for you? Have about this Ben the void stairs back bowling?

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Speaker 1: Oh thank you, I love it and I agree, and

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Speaker 1: so uh we're we're in merry spirits as we explore. Uh,

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Speaker 1: some not so merry spirits but so not Yes, exactly

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Speaker 1: some not so merry spirits as we teased in part one. Uh,

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Speaker 1: this is the second half of the Greenbrier Ghost, in

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Speaker 1: which we encounter some stunning revelation and some scandalous plots. Whish,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, what do you think, man? Would it

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Speaker 1: be good for us to give, like just a brief

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Speaker 1: summary of episode one? Oh? I think that's always helpful.

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Speaker 1: Ben Um, So we've got an unexplained death or or

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Speaker 1: a poorly explained death. Let's say the local physician, uh

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Speaker 1: Dr Knapp sounds like a made up character. Um blamed

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Speaker 1: it on the Everlasting Faint a k A heart attack.

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Speaker 1: But this is the woman in question who passed away

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Speaker 1: one Elva Zona Shoe maiden name Heaster, was discovered in

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Speaker 1: a ramshackle pile at the bottom of the stairs in

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Speaker 1: the home where she was living with her ne'er do

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Speaker 1: well husbands, Erasmus. If we were gonna give him a nickname,

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Speaker 1: the Irascible Shoe a k A. Trout, which is mainly

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Speaker 1: what we've been referring to him as. Although we really

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Speaker 1: liked the name Erasmus Um, he very suspiciously had left

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Speaker 1: the house on to visit a neighborhood UM Auntie Martha,

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Speaker 1: I believe um, and then had her young son go

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Speaker 1: and uh fetch some eggs from from his wife UM,

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Speaker 1: only to discover her decrepit body um dead, her corpse

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Speaker 1: at the bottom of the stairs. UM. There was an

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Speaker 1: autopsy performed quite haphazardly, if I do say so myself,

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Speaker 1: by said local physician UH and coroner Dr Knapp Um,

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Speaker 1: and the trout very conspicuously was not cool with him

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Speaker 1: examining the neck parts. Flash forward to the funeral back

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Speaker 1: in Zona's hometown on the other side of Greenbrier County,

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Speaker 1: where Trout even more conspicuously and awkwardly sticks close to

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Speaker 1: the casket and and make sure that her neck parts

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Speaker 1: are covered up by going as far as propping her

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Speaker 1: head up believe we referred to as death becomes her

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Speaker 1: style uh in the casket and made sure no one

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Speaker 1: got a good look at her neck. Um. What happens next, Ben, Well,

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Speaker 1: then everybody is being pathologically polite, as we said, and

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Speaker 1: letting this guy do his weird next stuff to his

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Speaker 1: wife's corpse, and no one's raising to stink about it

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Speaker 1: except for Zona's mother, Mary Jane Heaster. She never liked

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Speaker 1: Erasmus and she also found him uh sketchy is what

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Speaker 1: I would call a sketch artist, because I am a

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Speaker 1: fan of terrible euphemisms. And she then experienced a series

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Speaker 1: of visions. For four nights, she was visited by what

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Speaker 1: she believed to be the ghost of her daughter after

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Speaker 1: extensive praying, and her daughter not only said that she

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Speaker 1: did not die of a heart attack, she said that

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Speaker 1: her husband had murdered her murder most foul. And she

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Speaker 1: specifically said, Uh, this is where it happened, this is

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Speaker 1: how he broke my neck, This is where he broke

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Speaker 1: my neck, this is what the view looked like out

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Speaker 1: of our house. And Mary Jane had all the details.

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Speaker 1: She brought them to the town prosecutor, one Mr Preston.

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Speaker 1: Mr Preston, we don't know whether he believed in ghosts,

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Speaker 1: but through sheer tenacity, uh, Mary Jane was able to

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Speaker 1: persuade him to start asking questions. He finds out about

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Speaker 1: this weird next stuff he gets uh the doctor in

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Speaker 1: a very like lovable kind of absent minded Professor Waite,

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Speaker 1: Well shucks. You know, it was a little odd that

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Speaker 1: that that that that this guy named Trout uh was

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Speaker 1: was against me examining the the neck area of his

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Speaker 1: dead wife. But I just I just chalked it up

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Speaker 1: to grief, and I just figured out I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to ask too many questions. I mean, the man's grieving,

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Speaker 1: he's he's he's he's shedding tears, he's a grown man.

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Speaker 1: I don't want I don't want to push him over

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Speaker 1: the edge, you know. I mean, I haven't have a

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Speaker 1: little compassion, why don't you? But yeah, he goes back

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Speaker 1: to say, okay, well, now that you mentioned it, that

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Speaker 1: was a little odd. So they exhumed the body for

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Speaker 1: a second an autopsy, at which point they find, uh,

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Speaker 1: some pretty conspicuous markings around the neck. Uh A crushed windpipe,

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Speaker 1: finger bruises around the neck, all things that point to

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Speaker 1: Trout as perhaps have being the perpetrator of what is

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Speaker 1: now looked at not as a case of the horribles

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Speaker 1: or what do they call it, the Everlasting Faint? The

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Speaker 1: everlasting Faint, but rather a murder. And the plot continues

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Speaker 1: to thicken just like uh, just like corn starch, I

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Speaker 1: guess not a corn starch doctor or whatever, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: they it looks like murder rather than unfortunate heart attack.

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Speaker 1: And what's more, the markings on the body correlate almost

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Speaker 1: precisely according to the papers of the time, with the

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Speaker 1: information that Mary Jane claims to have received from her

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Speaker 1: daughter's ghosts. However, there and and then Trout says some ridiculous,

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Speaker 1: less lee sketchy stuff about this, kind of like when O. J.

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Speaker 1: Simpson published a book called If I Had Done It? Uh?

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Speaker 1: And this, uh, this gives Preston the prosecutor even more

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Speaker 1: of an off feeling. But at this point people in

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Speaker 1: town are saying, well, it could have been shoe, But

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Speaker 1: how did Mary Jane have all this information? What if

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Speaker 1: she is not only making up this ghost story, but

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Speaker 1: what if she is the murderer and framing her son

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Speaker 1: in law. That's where our stage is set. Back to

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Speaker 1: our inshrepid prosecutor. He's doing some detective work. He's got

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Speaker 1: a Sherlock Holmes hat on. Whatever. What's the Do we

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Speaker 1: know the specific name for that kind of hate. It's

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Speaker 1: called a deer stalker. Not sure why I know that,

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Speaker 1: but but for some reason I do. And yeah, it's true.

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Speaker 1: He keeps digging, he keeps digging and looking into shoes.

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Speaker 1: Pass because this guy is now really looking good as

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Speaker 1: as suspect number one, and he finds out that she

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Speaker 1: has been married twice before scandal Indeed, um and, according

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Speaker 1: to the record, the first marriage ended in a divorce

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Speaker 1: when she was sent to prison for stealing a horse.

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Speaker 1: That's what they call a horse divorce. That was what

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Speaker 1: happens you steal a horse. Automatic divorce. I thought it

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Speaker 1: was a divorce. Maybe that's what they just call it

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Speaker 1: in Tennessee. It might be right. It's you know, there's

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Speaker 1: different colloquialisms all over this grand country of ours. Language

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Speaker 1: is a living thing, as you say. Um. But but

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Speaker 1: that wife later told the cops that she was in

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Speaker 1: fact an awful, awful, violent, aggressive, angry man who beat

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Speaker 1: her quite frequently when they were married. The second marriage

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Speaker 1: that he entered into ended after only eight months with oh,

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Speaker 1: my gosh, surprise, surprise, the mysterious death of that wife. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Lucy and trip Shoe had lived with her husband for

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Speaker 1: a little less than eight and she died under suspicious circumstances.

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Speaker 1: Check this out. The first wife was supposed to have

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Speaker 1: passed away from a broken neck when she fell from

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Speaker 1: a haystack the second wife apparently died while helping trout

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Speaker 1: to repair a chimney. He was on top of the chimney.

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Speaker 1: His wife was putting rocks in a basket with a

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Speaker 1: rope attached, so they could, you know, yeah, like a

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Speaker 1: counterweight or something. Yeah, do a fully thing up to

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Speaker 1: the top. And as the basket was drawn up, it

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Speaker 1: turned over and dropped the rock on the head of

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Speaker 1: his wife. That's the explanation for the second wife. But

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Speaker 1: those are still mysterious circumstances because you see, gentleman, some

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Speaker 1: people said that this second wife, Lucy, was pregnant at

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Speaker 1: the time of her death and was still to this day.

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Speaker 1: You'll hear people say she fell through ice, others say

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Speaker 1: the rocks that are on the head, and some say

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Speaker 1: it was poison. Oh my gosh. And and let's just

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Speaker 1: really quickly, you know, the the initial digging revealed only

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Speaker 1: the first wife. The first marriage ended in divorce. But

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Speaker 1: there are these uh differing stories of these other potential

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Speaker 1: um deaths and these potential uh super sketchy deaths, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean, it is circumstantial, but it is

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Speaker 1: a smoke fire type situation, and it's certainly but the

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Speaker 1: very least points to Shoe Trout being a pretty awful guy. Um,

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Speaker 1: so he's got this information now. And we also have

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Speaker 1: an account that while he was in prison, um between

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Speaker 1: those marriages for the horse theft, that he bragged about

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Speaker 1: this idea that he was gonna marry seven women in

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Speaker 1: his lifetime. Weird flex weird goal. Uh, to each their own,

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Speaker 1: I guess, but there's a there's definitely that that's the

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Speaker 1: kind of statement that definitely leaves some questions, right because

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Speaker 1: the US at this time has law us against what's

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Speaker 1: known as bigamy. Bigamy is the practice of going to

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Speaker 1: marry someone when you are vact still married to someone else.

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Speaker 1: So he would have been, ah, what sex couple, big amist?

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Speaker 1: I guess it would seem so. And that paired with

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Speaker 1: his previous statement when presented with the plans to exhume

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Speaker 1: his his third dead wife's body. Uh. The the the the

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Speaker 1: apparition in questions. And by the way, my daughter the

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Speaker 1: other day, uh was she likes this anime and it's

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Speaker 1: about ghosts. And she was like, Dad, you know what

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Speaker 1: an operation is? And I got, well, you mean like

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Speaker 1: a ghost, because yeah, an operation? I think you mean apparition,

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Speaker 1: because no, no, it's definitely an operation. I read it

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Speaker 1: on the subtitles right there on the screen, and I

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Speaker 1: had to like break it to her, like, no, you

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Speaker 1: got that one wrong. And she hasn't spoken to me since.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, today's apparition in question. UM. So, between all

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Speaker 1: of those details, even though they're circumstantial, um and shoes

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Speaker 1: statement of if I you know O. J. Simpson like

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Speaker 1: statement of, well, you're gonna arrest me, but you're not

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Speaker 1: gonna be able to prove that I did it. It

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Speaker 1: was enough for for this um prosecutor to bring him

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Speaker 1: to trial, and there was a grand jury assembled and

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Speaker 1: the trial began in June Louisburg, West Virginia. June seven,

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Speaker 1: Trout hires two defense lawyers, William Reekler and James Gardner,

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Speaker 1: to be his representatives in a court of law. James Gardner,

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Speaker 1: by the way, is the very first black lawyer to

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Speaker 1: practice in a circuit court in the state of West Virginia.

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Speaker 1: At the trial, here's the tricky thing. There's not a

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Speaker 1: togn of hard evidence available. Yes, Elva Zona's neck is

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Speaker 1: broken and there are hand marks for sure, but as

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Speaker 1: we pointed out, forensic science then is not what it

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Speaker 1: is today, and yes, Trout did brag. They will not

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Speaker 1: be able to prove I did it, which is a quote.

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Speaker 1: But that's not that doesn't get you beyond reasonable doubt

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Speaker 1: in a murder case, you know what I mean. So

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Speaker 1: the defense calls Mary Jane to the stand and the

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Speaker 1: defense attorney asked her to describe her visits from this operation,

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Speaker 1: this ghost and she does this was the defense. Most

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Speaker 1: likely this was the defense's attempt to attack her credibility right,

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Speaker 1: to make her seem like a crazy grieving parent. Uh.

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Speaker 1: But she stuck to her guns and later a full

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Speaker 1: transcript of this conversation was published by a newspaper called

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Speaker 1: The Monroe Watchman. We tease, we tease this little bit.

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Speaker 1: We're not going to give you the whole transcript, but

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Speaker 1: we think it might be suitable for a bit of

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Speaker 1: a what do you think, knowl a dramatic reenactment. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think so. And listen and any Southern drawl accents

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Speaker 1: we do, we come, We come honestly by we're from

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Speaker 1: the South, Ben, you're from Tennessee. You know, we're not

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Speaker 1: making fun of anybody. They're just fun to do. Can

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Speaker 1: we all agree on that that we're not trying to

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Speaker 1: make fun of anybody's culture or background. Here, do you

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Speaker 1: want to rock paper scissors for the attorney? Absolutely? Okay,

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Speaker 1: it's one to three shoot right, one to three shot less,

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Speaker 1: eyes closed, so there's no lag because it just there's

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Speaker 1: a lag on the video. Okay, Casey, you're are impartial

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Speaker 1: witness and uh watching death batch. So the winner is

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Speaker 1: the attorney? Ready? Okay? Alright? One? Two, eyes open. Both

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Speaker 1: were below the camera line. I think I see paper

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Speaker 1: and says all right, okay, I'm a scissor. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: might trust that you didn't cheat. I never never, that's alright,

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Speaker 1: would never. I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't stooped to

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Speaker 1: that level. Here we hit the music. Mrs Kista, are

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Speaker 1: you positively sure that these visits are not four dreams? Why? Yes, sir,

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Speaker 1: it was not a dream. I don't dream when I

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Speaker 1: am quide awake to be sure, and I know I

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Speaker 1: saw her right there with me. Are you are you

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Speaker 1: not considerably superstitious? And no, sir, I am not. I

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Speaker 1: was never that way before and I am not now.

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Speaker 1: I thought, but do you believe in the scriptures? Yes, sir,

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Speaker 1: I have no reason not to believe. It, And do

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Speaker 1: you believe the scriptures contain the word of God and

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Speaker 1: his son, Yes, sir, I do. Don't you believe it? Now?

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Speaker 1: I would like it if I could to get you

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Speaker 1: to say that these were four dreams and not four

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Speaker 1: visions or appearances of your daughter in flesh and blood.

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Speaker 1: I am not going to say that, or I am

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Speaker 1: not going to lie and seen and seen all right,

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Speaker 1: case you could just out of pity throw us an

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Speaker 1: applause que because I know our fellow ridiculous history. That

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Speaker 1: is no pity applause those accents where there's something else.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, so okay, alright, I'll take that backhanded compliment

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Speaker 1: all day long. You're on thin ice, my friend. I

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Speaker 1: can't believe I gave you. Oh oh okay, now now

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Speaker 1: all right, you know, moving on, we're working live. Here's

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Speaker 1: the deal. Many of the people in town, maybe not

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Speaker 1: all twelve jury members, but many people of the town

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Speaker 1: believed he's her story. She seemed sincere, She did not

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Speaker 1: seem as though she had some sort of ulterior motive

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Speaker 1: to murder her own daughter. She certainly wasn't getting any

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Speaker 1: money out of this, and uh, to be honest, Erasmus

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Speaker 1: didn't really do himself any favors. When he took the stand,

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Speaker 1: he was just kind of like rambling, like a crazy

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Speaker 1: guy who accidentally walked onto the Ted Talk stage. He

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Speaker 1: was saying stuff to the jury, like like interrupting the

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Speaker 1: lawyers and saying like, look into my face and then

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Speaker 1: you tell me if I'm guilty, which is the worst

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Speaker 1: thing to say, especially they're like a super guilty looking dude,

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Speaker 1: Like I'd be like, look away from my face. But

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Speaker 1: maybe no mind, you know, um, it's it's it's very

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Speaker 1: interesting scene. And not to mention this didn't really come up,

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Speaker 1: but this is just my two cents. Uh. You know,

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Speaker 1: this was an elderly lady, and these were the types

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Speaker 1: of injuries that were clearly inflicted by hand, by very

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Speaker 1: strong hands, like animalistically strong hands, perhaps the hands of

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Speaker 1: a trout. A trout don't have hands, but a guy

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Speaker 1: with a nickname trout does. Yep. And because the jury

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Speaker 1: had no hard evidence to consider, just circumstantial stuff, and

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Speaker 1: then of course what appears to be the testimony of

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Speaker 1: a woman who received information from a ghost, they're left

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Speaker 1: with kind of feeling out the vibe, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean, going with their guts and this guy makes

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Speaker 1: a terrible first impression on them. Uh. So the judge said,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's no middle ground for the jury to take.

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Speaker 1: The verdict inevitably and logically must be for murder in

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Speaker 1: the first degree or for an acquittal. No other choices,

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Speaker 1: no manslaughter, nothing like that. The jury deliberates, but they

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Speaker 1: don't go twelve angreen Men's style. They're only deliberating for

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Speaker 1: maybe an hour and change. Surprised it took him that long. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what are they find? Well, I mean, yeah, they convicted

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Speaker 1: the guy. I mean, I just can't imagine what else

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Speaker 1: they would have done. Um, when presented with especially such

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Speaker 1: unsympathetic testimony from the man himself. Look at my face,

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Speaker 1: look at my tail me. There's a face, the face

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Speaker 1: of a child of God. Right, no, no, uh yeah,

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Speaker 1: but they sentenced him to life. Uh And it turns

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Speaker 1: out that's exactly what they took. Uh. As they say

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Speaker 1: in the Shawshank redemption, only in this case it means

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Speaker 1: that he died pretty quickly in prison of an undetermined malady.

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Speaker 1: But as we know, in the time the spring of

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Speaker 1: nineteen hundred, um, something we can relate do There are

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Speaker 1: quite a few epidemics running around measles and pneumonia were

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Speaker 1: absolutely ripping through this particular prison, the Moundsville State Prison.

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Speaker 1: Um and he had no one to come and claim

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Speaker 1: his body. Uh. And this is all from actually the

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Speaker 1: the official website of Greenbrier, West Virginia. And so now

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Speaker 1: we're question the very Halloweenny question for everyone in the crowd,

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Speaker 1: true believers and skeptics alike. Was it a ghostly visitation

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Speaker 1: or was it simply mother's intuition that uncovered the murderer.

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Speaker 1: Mary Jane Hayster lived long after trout Erasmus has pass

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Speaker 1: the way. If she lived until nineteen sixteen, she never

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Speaker 1: changed her story about Alvirizona's ghost. Maybe it was her

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Speaker 1: story that swayed the jury and won the case. Maybe

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Speaker 1: it wasn't. And as they say in a great Mental

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Speaker 1: Philoss article about this, maybe her daughter did speak to

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Speaker 1: her from beyond the grave. Maybe it was all Mary

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Speaker 1: Jane's head, or maybe just maybe she had arrived at

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Speaker 1: the information through mundane means and chose to frame it

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Speaker 1: in this, in this otherworldly lie, to get more like

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Speaker 1: eyes on it, to get more attention. Uh. But no

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Speaker 1: matter what, she did not have the ghost story. She

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Speaker 1: would not have gone to the prosecutor, and the prosecutor

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Speaker 1: never would have put those pieces together. And uh, it's

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Speaker 1: quite possible that shoe would have been on spouse number four.

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Speaker 1: Pretty soon the shoe would have been on the other spouse.

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Speaker 1: Never her mind, I was just the shoe on the

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Speaker 1: other foot. Forget it. Forget I said, thank you, thank

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Speaker 1: you so much. UM. And so that's essentially, uh, the

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Speaker 1: end of you know, the main part of the story.

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Speaker 1: But it actually becomes a little bit more of a legend, um,

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Speaker 1: which I love. The idea of the legend of Zona

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Speaker 1: makes me think of the legend of Zelda, of course, UM.

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Speaker 1: But it's mainly referred to in folklore in the lower

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Speaker 1: I guess of the area of Appalachia as the Greenbrier Ghost,

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Speaker 1: and it has taken on sort of a life of

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Speaker 1: its own over the years. It's told on a lot

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Speaker 1: of like ghost tours, which we know well even around

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Speaker 1: here in Atlanta, but especially in more haunted rural type

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Speaker 1: places or like New Orleans. You might think of, um,

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Speaker 1: but there is actually a West Virginia micro brewery named

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Speaker 1: Zona's Revenge, which is uh, it's in her honor and

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Speaker 1: is device Biau which is a very nice it's a

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Speaker 1: very drinkable summary kind of beer. If you haven't had

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Speaker 1: a vice beer, I highly recommend it. Um And, but

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Speaker 1: I know you're a fan of this Jenna Pierson Um.

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Speaker 1: The comic appears on an episode of Drunk History and

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Speaker 1: and tells the drunk version of this story. Um And

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Speaker 1: it has been adapted into quite a few stage plays.

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Speaker 1: There's even a musical which I want to hear all

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Speaker 1: about the Greenbrier Ghost. The musical written by somebody named

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Speaker 1: clais Ambo, which is a fabulous name from the nation,

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Speaker 1: you know, clais Ambosh Well, music and lyrics by clais

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Speaker 1: Ambo and it was apparently there's there's a you can

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Speaker 1: you can read about it on new play exchange dot org. Um.

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Speaker 1: But it did seem to capture people's imagination. I'm surprised

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Speaker 1: that we haven't seen it as a podcast. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess you know we are doing it as a podcast,

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Speaker 1: but I mean as like a spooky Halloween fiction podcast

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Speaker 1: like Thirteen Days of Halloween from featuring the original works

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Speaker 1: of Ben Bolan and a slew of other incredible writers,

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Speaker 1: most of which are from right here in the Atlanta area,

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Speaker 1: made by our very own Ride or Die compatriots Matt

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Speaker 1: Frederick and the one and only Alex Williams who composed

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Speaker 1: this uh this banging track. Well, don't worry, Alex, I

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Speaker 1: know you listen to this show entirely for the part

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Speaker 1: where we thank you at the end. We'll make sure

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Speaker 1: to do it. There's still a little bit of an

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Speaker 1: apologue here, because if you are a fan of road trips,

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Speaker 1: so you live in the area and you want to

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Speaker 1: see the living history, go to US sixty and between

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Speaker 1: sam Black Church and the I sixty four entrance ramp,

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Speaker 1: you can pull over and see a state highway marker

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Speaker 1: that sums up this story, saying the following interred in

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Speaker 1: a nearby cemetery, Zona Heaster Shoe. Her death in e

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Speaker 1: was presumed natural until her spirit appeared to her mother

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Speaker 1: to describe how she was killed by her husband, Edward.

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Speaker 1: Erasmus introduced himself as Edward. By the way, we made

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Speaker 1: the editorial choice to go with the much cooler name

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Speaker 1: a top and apologies to the Edwards in the crowd.

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Speaker 1: You can go by Erasmus if you want. Man. The

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Speaker 1: world is yours, carpet diam uh and autopsy on the

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Speaker 1: exhumed body, verified the apparition's account Edward found guilty of

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Speaker 1: murder was sentenced to state prison. It's strange because you know,

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Speaker 1: later investigators like Katie Letcher Lyle have have made some

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Speaker 1: pretty compelling arguments that Mary Jane was leaning into a

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Speaker 1: supernatural angle to get leverage, uh and and get her

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Speaker 1: somewhat suspicious neighbors to to support her cause. And you know,

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Speaker 1: whether or not you believe in ghosts, the fact of

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Speaker 1: the matter is it worked and justice was served. And

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Speaker 1: if you look at the evidence, we have now what

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Speaker 1: a d and twenty four years later, so he did

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Speaker 1: it like he he killed her? Right, we can agree

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Speaker 1: that's pretty conclusive. With just about zero percent uncertainty. Um,

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Speaker 1: we we can conclude that. But here's the thing. We

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Speaker 1: do have a precedence that Zona's mother likely would have

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Speaker 1: been aware of UM for perhaps shaping her telling of

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Speaker 1: this ghost story in a way that might sway a

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Speaker 1: jury right when Zona's life was taken. One of the

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Speaker 1: places that her death was first reported we mentioned this

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Speaker 1: was in a publication called the Greenbrier Independent on page

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Speaker 1: three in January UM specifically the eight UM and it

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Speaker 1: was only briefly mentioned, but this is how it went.

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Speaker 1: Mrs E Z Shoe, wife of E. S. Shoe, died

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Speaker 1: at her home in the rich Lands, this County on

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Speaker 1: Sunday last um aged twenty second years. Mrs Shu was

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Speaker 1: a daughter of Mr Hedges, heaster of meadow Bluff District.

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Speaker 1: Mr Shu formerly lived in Pocahonna's County. But on the

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Speaker 1: very front page of this publication was a headline a

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Speaker 1: ghost story and it went on to talk about a

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Speaker 1: case in Australia that was happening around the same time. Ben,

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Speaker 1: would you like to do a bit of this reading here? Sure,

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Speaker 1: and we'll do this in perhaps the accent of the reporter.

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Speaker 1: One of the most famous murder cases you know Australia

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Speaker 1: was discovered by the ghost of a murdered man sitting

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Speaker 1: on the rail of a damn that's Australian for hurst

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Speaker 1: pond into which his body had been thrown. Numberless people

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Speaker 1: saw it, and the crime was duly brought home years

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Speaker 1: after dying. Man making his con fashion said that he

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Speaker 1: invented the ghost. He witnessed the crime, but was threatened

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Speaker 1: with death if he divulged it as he wished to,

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Speaker 1: and the only way he saw out of the impasse

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Speaker 1: was to effect to see the ghost where the body

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Speaker 1: would be found. As soon as he started the story

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Speaker 1: such as the power of nervousness, that numerous other people

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Speaker 1: began to say it until its fame reached such dimensions,

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Speaker 1: lad of search was might and the body found and

424
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 1: the murderers brought to justice. That's interesting, right, because we're like,

425
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 1: we know Mary Jane is probably reading this paper. Yeah,

426
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: it's the front page. She wouldn't have been able to

427
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 1: miss it. And it's also the paper that contains the

428
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: announcement of her daughter's uh tragic passing. Yes, exactly so

429
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: and so uh maybe, just maybe, and this is to

430
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 1: be fair of this speculation on our part and the

431
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 1: part of other other people who may share this belief.

432
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:59,480
Speaker 1: But just maybe mary Jane saw this and hatched the

433
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 1: plan because she thought this would help galvanize local law

434
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: enforcement and authorities to do a better job investigating this.

435
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: Or maybe it was unconscious on her part, because she's

436
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,439
Speaker 1: in a very traumatized mental state at this time. So

437
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 1: it's quite possible, for example, that she read it and

438
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:24,879
Speaker 1: didn't consciously register it and it just affected what she

439
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 1: believed she experienced later, you know, what I mean, absolutely, Yeah,

440
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 1: it could have been a ghost, you know. I it's

441
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 1: interesting that this this is hard to ignore, don't you think, Ben,

442
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: The coincidence here of this other story literally setting a

443
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: precedent for, you know, concocting a ghost story to make

444
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 1: sure that someone's killer actually gets convicted in the same

445
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: exact publication that the announcement of her daughter's death, where

446
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: she definitely would have had eyes on that, her being

447
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: a bit of a shrewd woman clearly, um, and having

448
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: known this gentleman was a bit of a no good neck, uh,

449
00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: and also knowing that he was being super sketchy around

450
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 1: the neck. And I guess it being a quite patriarchal society,

451
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 1: the mother would have had very little ability to do

452
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: anything about that, you know, just to to to call

453
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: him out in public, you know, in that way, So

454
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: she would have had to go about it in a

455
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: bit of a more circuitous path. Yeah. And I think

456
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: that's an excellent point. I mean, it reminds me of

457
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: some of the other stuff we've done about the socio

458
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 1: economic context of exorcisms, right, I was thinking the very

459
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 1: same thing, Ben. Yeah. So, and that's something you can

460
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: check out on on on the other show, we do

461
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 1: stuff they don't want you to know. Uh, that's I

462
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,760
Speaker 1: think there's a lot to be said there. Uh. We

463
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: know that this is not necessarily the only case where

464
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: people feel a murderer has been revealed by a ghost.

465
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 1: But at this time, even now, in the case of

466
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: the Greenbrier ghost, remains the only time in US history

467
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: that a murder conviction has been determined by a source

468
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: reportedly beyond the grave here here. What do you think, Ben,

469
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: Have we've done justice to this two parter? Yet? Should

470
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,920
Speaker 1: we keep going? I think I think we've I think

471
00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: we've done it. I think we have successfully made a

472
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,720
Speaker 1: two parter on purpose, which is which is big for us. Uh,

473
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 1: you know, I want I want there to be ghost man.

474
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: But this is such a great story that I propose

475
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 1: we passed the torch to our fellow ridiculous historians to

476
00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: tell us some of their favorite ghost stories. What do

477
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: you think? I agree? Ben? Do you have any of

478
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: you had any brushes with the with the afterworld? I have.

479
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: There are things I can't explain, but I think automatically

480
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: calling those uh spirits or ghost is kind of explaining them,

481
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: you know, when I don't what I don't have the evidence.

482
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: I will see. My family believes in a lot of

483
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 1: that stuff historically. Yeah, and my ex wife and and

484
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: you know, one of my best friends, Casey, is very

485
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: much a spiritual person and is into like Wicca and

486
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 1: a lot of that stuff and stuff that I'm not.

487
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: I I wouldn't like poopoo or anything, but it's not

488
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 1: necessarily my wheelhouse or or stuff that I fully understand

489
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: or believe. I would say, but I would never judge

490
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: anybody else for their beliefs or whatever they might be.

491
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,600
Speaker 1: I did. I think I've told the story on stuthing

492
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: that I want you to know before, and I'll tell

493
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: the very abbreviated version of it. Um. I had the

494
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: closest thing that I would call a brush with the

495
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: supernatural when I was late high school. The girl that

496
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: I dated for a really long time was older than me,

497
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: and she was in college and I would visit her

498
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: after class, um and she'd wait for me in her car.

499
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 1: And it was really cold one day and I walked

500
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: up to her car and she was sitting in the

501
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: car and she looked like visibly shaken, and she was

502
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 1: kind of like crying. I said, what's going on on

503
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: and she blew on the inside of her windshield and

504
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: the signature appeared, and it was the signature of her friend,

505
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: our friend, but her best friend, um, Missa, who had

506
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: died in a car accident about three weeks prior. And

507
00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: I just got hit with the most you know, intense

508
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: sense of I am experiencing a ghostly apparition, a ghostly vision.

509
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: That is what this is, no question about it. And

510
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: I was shaken. I was moved to tears, and I

511
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: really didn't know what to think and other than that's

512
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: what this is. And then a little time passed and

513
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: I thought about it, and it's like, you know, it's

514
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: the kind of thing young girls do. They write their

515
00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 1: names on the inside of you know, foggy windshields with

516
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: their fingers, and uh, if it had been recent enough,

517
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 1: you've got oils on your fingers that would cause it

518
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: to leave a mark that you could uh, you know,

519
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: blow on and you could see that kind of return. Um.

520
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 1: But I swear to God, ma'am, I felt the spirit.

521
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: I really did. And then I sort of explained it away,

522
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: which is almost sad, but that I couldn't deny that

523
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: part of the story either. Yeah, yeah, well, in the

524
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: spirit of pro quoa, I'll give you a story as well.

525
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,840
Speaker 1: But first casey, do you have now that we're gathered

526
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: around our zoom campfire, do you have something to tell

527
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: us as the uh the flames throw orange shadows and

528
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: shades across your face. No, I have to be kind

529
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: of disappointing here, although I do remember um playing like

530
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: that game Bloody Mary as a kid at at a

531
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: friend's house. Oh God, why would you why would you do? Hand? Uh?

532
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: And and really really psyching ourselves up and and you

533
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,239
Speaker 1: know it was it was like an old house and

534
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: it was full of weird noises and stuff. So you know,

535
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: we we heard stuff, felt like we saw stuff because

536
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 1: it was just candlelight. But um, I'm pretty sure we

537
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 1: were just kind of highly suggestible maybe, but um yeah,

538
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: that's about the closest I can recall from the ghostly realm.

539
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 1: So uh, in the spirit of fairness, then I will say,

540
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: without shouting out specific family members, there is a little

541
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: bit of a stereotype persistent in days of yore around

542
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: uh my ancestors malungeons. Uh. Usually like allegations of witchcraft

543
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: or they have secret hordes riches that they got through

544
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: magical means dark magical means. Uh. And keep in mind

545
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 1: that riches in like seventeen hundreds eight hundreds rural Tennessee

546
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 1: or not what you would consider riches in New York City.

547
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 1: You know what I mean. But for most of my

548
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: life growing up, I've heard stories that hinge on things

549
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: more like uh, precognitive dreams or claar avoyance from my family.

550
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: And in my lifetime I've I have seen things that

551
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: I cannot as I try, as try as I might,

552
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 1: I cannot explain through mundane means. To give a light note,

553
00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: we used to travel all the time right in the

554
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: days before the pandemic, and I can't wait to get

555
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 1: on the road again with you guys. But on a

556
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 1: lighter note, one of my favorite Franks and hotels, I

557
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: will tell you. I hope you guys don't hate me

558
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: after this, because it may be a little mean for

559
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,440
Speaker 1: some folks in the crowd, but it's so fun. I

560
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 1: used to take shaving cream. Take shaving cream and you

561
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: write a message on the mirror, or cryptic message, and

562
00:35:21,719 --> 00:35:24,760
Speaker 1: then you clean it off, and then when someone turns

563
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:29,440
Speaker 1: on the shower and the room fogs up, then that

564
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 1: message will be visible because the condensation will work the

565
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: same way on the part where the shaving cream was

566
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: so I used to write stuff like they're coming race.

567
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 1: Do you think spooky ghost ever haunt via shaving cream?

568
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 1: I would love that. That would be cool. Yeah. I

569
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 1: don't know, man, I just I thought it was fun,

570
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,319
Speaker 1: little plots with spice up people's lives, you know what

571
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,440
Speaker 1: I mean. It's a little bit of a little bit

572
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 1: of light anarchic, a little bit of SubGenius stuff there.

573
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 1: But it's fun. It's like making fake lost posters. I

574
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: used to make missing posters for boomerangs and stuff like that.

575
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,839
Speaker 1: That's pretty funny, Ben, that's very datta. I like that

576
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,480
Speaker 1: very much. Hey, is this the last spooky episode of

577
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 1: the season for us? And am I getting the calendar

578
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 1: meddled up? Yeah? I think you're right. Well, this will

579
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,880
Speaker 1: wrap it up for our Halloween extravaganza. See, but can

580
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: we just keep can't we just keep doing it? Once to?

581
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 1: I mean, it feels sometimes like it's always Halloween in America. Now,

582
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 1: I feel like November is sort of Halloween e a

583
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: little bit, you know. Yeah, it's it's it's happy halloweyn,

584
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 1: you know. We made up our own spin on the holiday.

585
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: Are our our how Halloween is just two months of Halloween?

586
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: There we go because we definitely have more spooky stories

587
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: and the and the and the research materials that we

588
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 1: could talk about. I don't know, we don't have to

589
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: limit ourselves. We don't you know, maybe the real Halloween

590
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: was the friends we made along the way. The which

591
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 1: is how you always end in prop shows if you

592
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 1: just need to get out of the scene. But it's

593
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: a very good place. But the Yeah, we've had a

594
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,359
Speaker 1: blast with this. And you could say it's not Halloween

595
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:12,839
Speaker 1: if it's every day of the year. Um, but we

596
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,760
Speaker 1: hope that you have enjoyed this. And hey, just because

597
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 1: this is coming out towards the end of the season,

598
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: don't feel like you can't send us nicknames. Don't feel

599
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,240
Speaker 1: like they have to be spooky, send us full nicknames.

600
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,840
Speaker 1: Shout out to Melissa in over On Ridiculous Historians who

601
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: gave me the nickname Ben Boo Bolan, which I'm frankly surprised.

602
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,400
Speaker 1: What did you think of that one? Already know that

603
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,240
Speaker 1: was the very first one. It's the most go to, easy,

604
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: low hanging Halloween fruit that ever could be but thanks

605
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 1: for the callback. Full circle, my friend, Full circle. Happy Halloween, everybody.

606
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 1: Big thank you to Alex Williams, Big thank you to

607
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:57,920
Speaker 1: Christopher hasci Otis. Big thank you to use super producer

608
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: Casey Pegram whatever. John, I'm I'm I'm fading guys at

609
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: six o'clock here, It's Friday, uh, and I am ready

610
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: to flee. I'm kind of punch you too, man, I'm

611
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: kind of punchy too. All right, let's leave it to that.

612
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 1: We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts for

613
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,

614
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,