WEBVTT - Can you cure picky eating? (w/ Search Engine) 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.000 I'm Manny, I'm Noah, and this is no such thing. 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:06.800 On today's episode, we're trying to find out if it's 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:13.400 possible to cure picky eating. No, there's no no such thing. 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:17.639 Such a thing than. 0:00:19.280 --> 0:00:22.799 This episode is in collaboration with the search Engine podcast 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.120 hosted by p J vote Uh. It was a lot 0:00:26.120 --> 0:00:27.840 of fun to do and we're just gonna let them 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:28.800 take it away from here. 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:56.080 Do you guys want to introduce yourselves? 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.480 Absolutely. My name is Manny, I'm Noah. 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:02.960 And this is Devon and search Engine listeners may remember you. 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:05.640 You guys were on the show previously. Usually we answer 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:08.160 people's questions. You guys showed up with a question which 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:09.319 you then answered, which was. 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:12.600 Yeah, why are there so many chicken bones on the streets? 0:01:12.959 --> 0:01:15.760 It was it was an investigation. People honestly still email 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:19.200 me about people. I think there are just Americans now 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:20.680 who walk down the streets, see a chicken bone, and 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:23.880 think about these three unusual gentlemen from New York. 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:24.640 We answered this. 0:01:24.800 --> 0:01:25.560 I love to hear that. 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:27.120 We got an email last week about it. 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:30.399 Really Yeah, someone sent us a picture of a chicken bone. 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:33.440 Not that the like. We were still doing research for 0:01:33.480 --> 0:01:34.480 the episode I think. 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:41.600 Since that first story published a year ago, Manny, Noah, 0:01:41.600 --> 0:01:45.399 and Devin have started their own podcast. They answer questions 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.520 something I was pretty sure we completely invented, but whatever. 0:01:49.120 --> 0:01:50.920 I think the reason their show is so good is 0:01:50.960 --> 0:01:54.560 their excellent question choosing the big questions that come out 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:57.600 of their arguments. These three are always arguing about stuff 0:01:57.640 --> 0:02:02.520 like do audiobooks count as reading? Do horses hate running? Well? 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:05.720 Actually, today an episode came out called is it okay 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:08.400 to wear your outside clothes on your bed? Oh? 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:11.600 I've been Uh, I've been criticized for this quite a bit. 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:13.520 Ye, I'll ask you, do you think it's okay? 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:15.680 I mean, there's a lot of things I do that 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:19.120 I don't think are okay, But I will I go 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:21.919 to bed like I don't know the people you're talking 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:23.840 about have discussing are But I'm definitely worse than that. 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:26.240 Like I will get in bed, I will sleep in 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:29.239 my jeans. 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:31.880 That's an extreme case. That's pretty nasty. 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:36.360 It's disgusting. I mean why because I don't. 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:40.280 Like, you have really comfortable jeans. 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:47.320 They're not they're like they are like jeggings, or like 0:02:47.360 --> 0:02:49.320 they're not they're broken in. 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:51.880 I'll they're very broken, just like by the end of 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.440 the day, the exertion of literally I sometimes I just 0:02:55.480 --> 0:03:00.919 don't have it anyway. The reason the Chicken Bone Squad 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:03.000 was back here today was because once again they had 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:05.200 a question for our show which they wanted to find 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:07.760 the answer to, a question we hear at search Engine 0:03:07.800 --> 0:03:09.200 found particularly delightful. 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:16.480 Today. We have a problem, and I'm grateful to be 0:03:16.480 --> 0:03:19.880 able to use this platform again to answer something so stupid. 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:26.040 But I'm a member of the picky eating community and 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:28.200 that's OK. That's run into a lot of issues in 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:30.800 this friend group. It's run into a lot of issues 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:36.240 in my relationship, specifically because my version of pickie eating 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:38.040 is an aversion. 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:41.200 To seafood across the board, No, seafood. 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:42.440 Yeah, pretty much across the board. 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:42.960 Yeah. 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:45.440 That's like, are you a lifelong picky eater? 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:46.400 Yeah? 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:48.800 And it's just has it been the same versions since 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:51.240 you were a kid or have you developed, Like as 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:54.040 your palette has advanced, has your pickiness also advanced? 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:59.119 Yeah? I think it's been lifelong, especially with seafood. I 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:01.680 am to tell you a layout a little bit about 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:06.880 like my background, so I'm eritrean American. Both my parents 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:10.920 are from Eritrea, and in that cuisine there's really no 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:13.680 seafood at all. Unless you are from one of the 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:16.320 port towns on the Red Sea, you don't eat seafood. 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:18.600 So I didn't grow up with any seafood. The only 0:04:18.640 --> 0:04:22.279 seafood exposure I had was like at elementary school or 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:25.160 middle school where they would have like the fish Fridays 0:04:25.360 --> 0:04:26.960 or fried shrimp or whatever. 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:28.880 But so, would you eat the fried shrimp when you're 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:29.200 a kid? 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:31.480 I did, but I didn't know what it was because. 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:33.800 It is always carrying the weight. 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:36.360 Yeah, which is what struck me about this aversion because 0:04:36.400 --> 0:04:39.200 it wasn't the taste at the time, because it's knowing 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:40.600 what it is is what made me. 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:44.480 I understand it, don't. I don't find pickiness in food 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:48.800 consumption strange, and like I like seafood, but there was 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:51.680 like I had a couple of years with shrimp all 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:53.480 the sudder. It's like I'm not doing that, and then 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:55.680 it came back because they're like they are like insects. 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:58.320 It's like you're eating this like weird fat worm that 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:01.000 has like that visible poop in it. 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:03.080 Yeah, yeah, yes. 0:05:03.600 --> 0:05:06.719 And my family ends up being a good exam for 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:10.040 this because although none of my siblings grew up eating fish, 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:13.560 they all love fish, Okay, they like it. Now there 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:15.719 are another group of people who I'm running into this 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:18.200 issue with. We cannot go out to eat and get 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:19.960 what they want to get because I'm there. 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:22.720 And what are the conversations around this, Like they're. 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:27.640 Like stop being Yeah, I won't use the words. Basically, 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:30.160 I'm like being a child and like preventing them from 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:33.480 getting what they want to get. And I'll just say this, like, 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:36.280 for the picky eaters out there, I don't think you 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:39.920 should change who you are. But for me specifically, I'm 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:43.719 running into this enough to where I'm curious about whether 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:47.159 it's possible to cure your picky eating. I want to 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:49.240 know if, like, is there something I can do to 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:54.159 make it so that I can tolerate fish enough to 0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:56.800 be able to be at a restaurant and not cause 0:05:56.839 --> 0:06:00.160 any issues when I'm ordering in a group or with myro. 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:02.960 And is the idea that you'll let like actually consume it. 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:06.280 Yeah, I think like the ultimately, like it'd be great 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:09.560 if I was just towing down on like any kind 0:06:09.560 --> 0:06:13.560 of fish, shrimp, tuna, whatever, But mostly I just want 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:16.880 to be able to exist in this restaurant space and 0:06:16.960 --> 0:06:19.839 like not be a hindrance to people who you know, 0:06:19.880 --> 0:06:21.440 in New York, it's a lot of money, so to 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:23.440 go out to eat. If you're paying that much money 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:25.919 and you're not eating what you want to eat, I 0:06:26.080 --> 0:06:29.680 feel like I don't want to be an obstacle to, 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:36.560 you know, someone's desires. Okay, So that's the question that 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:39.680 we came here to answer, like is it possible to 0:06:39.800 --> 0:06:44.880 cure picky eating? And we started with Noah. We had 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:48.400 him kind of look into the history of picky eating 0:06:48.600 --> 0:06:50.920 and some of the stuff people have done to try 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:51.440 and cure it. 0:06:51.920 --> 0:06:54.400 Yeah, So what I found was the kind of idea 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:56.360 of even just choosing what you eat is actually a 0:06:56.400 --> 0:06:59.440 pretty recent historical phenomenon. I mean, you can imagine most 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:01.520 people just had to eat whatever was given to them 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:04.400 throughout history. So I mean, like the term picky eating 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:07.240 didn't even exist until the seventies, or wasn't used until 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:09.920 the seventies. But there has been kind of this war 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:13.280 between picky children and their parents for probably since like 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:16.679 the eighteen hundreds, so I mean for the past century 0:07:16.800 --> 0:07:18.920 or so, parents and doctors have been trying all sorts 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:22.640 of ways to cure this modern affliction. There's all sorts 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:25.960 of cookbooks designed to help parents sneak healthy foods into recipes. 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:30.840 The kids might actually try things like spinach and browniesie, Yeah, 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:34.840 which is pretty perverse. I feel like, yeah, there's probably 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:36.560 some better ways to do it. Hopefully, you know, maybe 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:41.440 new technology is helping this. I hope hypnotherapy is actually 0:07:41.480 --> 0:07:44.480 a popular method for that's for both children and adults. 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:45.560 So maybe Manny can try that. 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:46.480 Yeah, I would love to. 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:49.520 But one of the most common, and definitely the one 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:52.800 I was most familiar with, is what i'd call forced exposure. So, 0:07:53.240 --> 0:07:55.200 all right, you hate some food, but if we just 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:57.440 kind of force you to eat it or be around it, 0:07:57.480 --> 0:07:59.600 then maybe eventually you're just kind of give in and 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:01.760 up to that. This is a decent food to eat. 0:08:01.640 --> 0:08:04.680 And common because it's uh successful, or common because it's 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:06.280 just what every parent defaults do. 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:06.800 Yeah. 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:08.920 I think it's just kind of an obvious thing to try. 0:08:09.360 --> 0:08:11.400 It's also very popular on daytime TV. 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:12.560 Daytime TV. 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:14.720 Yeah, so shows like Maury. I mean, you could find 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:16.760 a lot of examples of this. It makes for great 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:18.720 TV fodder, you can imagine. So I want to show 0:08:18.720 --> 0:08:19.120 you a clip. 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:22.080 Actually, okay, this is Mariah. 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:27.920 She's eighteen years old and she is deathly afraid of pickles. 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:31.600 I mean, the whole world eats pickles. 0:08:31.680 --> 0:08:34.400 There's a woman who looks like she just found out 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.080 she's dying. She's shaking school. 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:42.320 Was called the pickle Girl. 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:43.160 And then they're presenting her with trays and trays and 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:44.120 trays of pickles. 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:46.800 This is what the side of a pickle does to Mariah. 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:51.760 Everything about pickles? 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:58.640 Are is it crazy? What every idea you have has 0:08:58.679 --> 0:09:01.200 been done by someone in a umermeanor. 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:06.439 We wanted to see firsthand the extent of Mariah's pickle phobio, 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:09.960 so we sent her to the Patterson Pickle Factory, where 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:12.920 she would come face to face with thousands of thousands 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:16.400 of pickle maris. 0:09:16.000 --> 0:09:19.160 A saydust, listen, if Mariah the Pickle Girl is out there, 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:21.160 I would love to hear you know where you are 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:23.160 now and kind of what your life has been like. 0:09:24.640 --> 0:09:28.199 It seems like being on Maury being humiliated for having 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:32.160 a very unusual psychological response to pickles is so much 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:34.480 worse than the problem she was trying to solve. 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:37.800 Yeah, So like need just to say at the end 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:40.120 of the segment, the pickle girl is still very much 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:43.360 afraid of pickles, and like the research says, forced exposure 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:45.520 therapy like that just doesn't actually work right. 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:47.320 Stacking the thing people have a problem with in their 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:50.680 face over and over response is like good daytime TV. 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:52.560 But yeah, so we could have just take Manny to 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:54.840 some factory and hope it would go away. But we 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:57.280 tried to find a scientist who had studied this kind 0:09:57.280 --> 0:09:59.680 of stuff. So we actually came across the professor at 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:01.720 Duke University, who is one of the first people to 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:04.120 really hone in and look at picky eating in a 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:05.000 comprehensive way. 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:09.160 We wanted to first just ask if you could say 0:10:09.160 --> 0:10:10.920 your name and what you do. 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:15.520 My name is Nancy Zooker, and I am a professor 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:19.640 of psychiatry at Duke University and I direct the Duke 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:20.959 Center for Eating Disorders. 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:24.760 Great, I'll tell you a little bit about my experience 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:28.319 with this. Yeah, I've been a picky eater my whole life. 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:33.040 I have a specific aversion to seafood and fish, and 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:35.839 so what we're kind of planning to do with this 0:10:35.920 --> 0:10:39.560 episode is cure that as best as we can. And 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:42.800 so you know, you did just mention that you worked 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:46.240 at the Center for Eating Disorders. I guess my first 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:48.040 question is do I have an eating disorder? 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:49.120 Yeah? 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:52.160 You know, so the boundary in which being a picky 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:56.000 eater is defined as a disorder is based on impairment. 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:59.320 And so if you're a version to fish, does it 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:01.720 include seaf food like shrimp skeleton? 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:04.040 Yeah, all of it, all of it, the whole lot 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:04.360 of it. 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:08.600 Right, So like if you were I suppose I'm aspiring 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:11.840 New York chef and it was getting in your way 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:15.000 of kind of designing the menu of your dreams, then 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:17.520 it might be, you know, crossing over into impairment. But 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:19.880 if it doesn't get in your way, then it probably 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:21.280 wouldn't cost. The lines of a. 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:23.920 Disorder interesting, So it's kind of the same way we're 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:28.400 defining like depression or alcoholism. Like whether behavior rises the 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:30.800 level of disorder has to do with how well you're 0:11:30.840 --> 0:11:34.199 able to fit in society exactly, And how we draw 0:11:34.240 --> 0:11:36.760 the line between picky eating and disordered eating is like 0:11:36.960 --> 0:11:40.560 how much it's impairing your relationship to society, Which is 0:11:40.600 --> 0:11:43.960 funny because it's like I'm not going to disagree with psychiatry, 0:11:43.960 --> 0:11:45.760 but like I slightly disagree with that where I'm like, 0:11:46.280 --> 0:11:48.040 but we kind of do know, Like there's a difference 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:50.120 between like, oh, I have an aversion and like, oh, 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:53.080 it's like a deep psychological pain. Like it feels like 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:55.480 an insufficient way to describe the severity of the problem, 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:58.720 but I'll allow it. 0:11:59.240 --> 0:12:02.560 Yeah, man is not so extreme as in like he 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:04.320 goes out to eat with us, and he can be 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:07.960 in a presence of seafood. But some people don't even 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:09.719 want to be. You can't smell it, you can't look 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:10.640 at it right, Like. 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:14.360 But I do feel disgusted by like fish, just like 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:19.160 when they're alive, Like they're slippery and squirmy, and in 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:21.160 the world, I'm not gonna throw up, but I'm like 0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:23.600 a live fish. Yeah, a beautiful school of fish that 0:12:23.640 --> 0:12:25.800 disturbs you. There are some I get it. 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:26.679 No, I don't. 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:29.240 Sorry, I'll defend you against your friends. Man, he's talking 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:31.920 about you're on the beach on vacation. You're standing, the 0:12:31.960 --> 0:12:34.680 water's up like your thighs and something like something rushes 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:38.400 on your leg is something squirmy and black kind of squirrels. 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:39.960 Thank you. 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:42.640 Did you go to aquariums as a kid? Yeah, so 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:43.600 you were just like, oh, this. 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:47.360 Is giant fish are different. 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:48.600 Oh, you don't like small fish. 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:52.240 There's the little ones that are like skiming something like. 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:56.200 The famous spots of fish. 0:12:56.320 --> 0:12:56.600 Yeah. 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:59.200 But so you wouldn't like if you're out for dinner 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.560 with your girlfriend and like a waiter walked by with 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:06.720 a you know, a plate full of like shrimp on 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:09.000 a kebab, you don't care. But if you're with your 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:11.080 friends and they're being jerks and they like picked up 0:13:11.080 --> 0:13:13.360 a shrimp and dangled in your face, you would feel discussed. 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:15.000 Yeah, I'd be like, get get it, get that out 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:15.440 of my face. 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:16.000 Yeah. 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:19.400 So I asked doctor Zucker to explain to me, like, 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:23.480 what's what's going on with this disgust factor, Like why 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:24.199 is that happening? 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:30.240 So disgust is a really cool emotion in my opinion. Right, 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:35.360 So it's designed to protect us from getting contaminated from pathogens. Right. 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:38.240 So it has a very protective function. And so when 0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:42.120 you think about how one becomes contaminated, we get contaminated 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:45.520 when something crosses a body barrier. We ingest it, we 0:13:45.600 --> 0:13:48.400 inhale it, we absorb it through our skin across the 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:52.240 some orifice, and by the time it does that, you're 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:56.080 contaminated and it's too late, and so there should be 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.680 these cues that people who are discussed sensitive pick ups. 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.160 You mentioned slimy, right, these kind of things that just 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:06.200 look to us like they're threatening and they could cause 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:09.480 us to be contaminated. And you know, it's interesting that 0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.600 it's restricted to that one area. I would guess that 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:17.160 you're pretty detailed sensitive in other things like that. You 0:14:17.240 --> 0:14:19.440 notice like visual details of things. 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:23.080 Like textbo Oh, yeah, I'm really observant. I'm a video producer, 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:25.560 and so that's kind of like part of my whole thing. 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:27.880 It's ruined to movies for me. Actually, I can't watch 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:29.560 movies like a normal person anymore. 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:31.520 Oh, it wasn't that so interesting, right? So I just 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:34.640 I think that that's like a cool adaptive trait that 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:37.800 might not be as adaptive to the modern environment. But 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:40.720 like if you are a cave dweller back in the day, 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:43.720 perhaps you would have outlasted your peers. 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:49.320 It's interesting, Mannie. It's like you have a brain that 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.520 is suited for being a cavebeller, where it's like avoid 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:55.480 unfamiliar foods at all costs because they could be poison. 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:57.880 And it's like sending you the right signals. But the 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:01.360 problem is we're in a world where everything we want 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:03.560 to do is just fit in socially, and the fact 0:15:03.560 --> 0:15:07.240 that your poison avoiding brain is telling you not to 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:10.840 eat fish is causing you like three percent social friasion, 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.600 which is the worst thing that could happen in modern society. 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:16.360 Yeah, and I think, yeah, I think my ex once 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:18.760 described me as someone who had a brain suited to 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:21.560 be a cave dweller's that's not the first time I've 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:24.640 heard that comment, actually, But I was interested in why 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:28.440 Devin and Noah don't have the same problem that I do. 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:33.440 So that's interesting in terms of my experience. But Devin 0:15:33.520 --> 0:15:37.480 and Noah here love fish. Why isn't their body telling 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:38.960 them to avoid fish? 0:15:39.720 --> 0:15:42.440 Well, because it's pretty adaptive to eat fish, right, Like, 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:45.280 not everything's contaminated. So there needs to be this kind 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:47.280 of balance of like people that have kind of a 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:51.160 low bar for trying out things and adventuring and testing 0:15:51.200 --> 0:15:54.280 things out and seeing if it's okay. So there should 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.600 be variation in the population about kind of one sensitivity 0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:00.320 to these different features. So you got some people taking 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.760 risks like your friends, and you know you who is 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:06.520 kind of holding back and saying like, you guys, try 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:07.000 it first. 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:10.560 So what's interesting is that doctor Zucker actually did a 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:14.160 study a few years ago with twenty thousand self described 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:14.880 picky eaters. 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:15.520 Oh wow. 0:16:15.880 --> 0:16:17.880 And part of what they were trying to figure out 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:19.840 what the study, especially with her work with kids, it's like, 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.480 what are the things that your parents did that helped 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:24.920 with your pick eating? And what are some of the 0:16:24.960 --> 0:16:27.440 things that they did that like really fucked you up? 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:29.400 But she said, the. 0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:34.080 Things that are helpful are like creating positive experiences with 0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:38.360 your kids, involving them and prepping the food. Like one 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:42.120 example they had is like introducing cultures with food as 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:44.280 a way to introduce new foods to kids. 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:46.240 Oh like the culture from which the food. 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.360 Exactly, like giving some background on it, making it feel 0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:50.680 more like an experience. 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:54.480 Yeah, versus here's this thing in front of you, eat 0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:54.840 it now. 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.800 So it sounds like basically since we were kids, the 0:16:59.640 --> 0:17:03.760 it's like the picky eating, like literature has progressed, like 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:05.919 the fuel of getting kids to eat things that might 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:08.800 be unfamiliar or weird like people, because I don't think 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:12.280 like like my parents or most of those parents were 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:14.919 reading books that were like sit your kids table with 0:17:14.920 --> 0:17:17.800 the plan roc they tell everyone's crying, but like, gods 0:17:17.800 --> 0:17:19.520 are their parents? Does that's what they were doing? And it's 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:22.080 like people have actually thought about this, and like psychiatry 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:23.960 has approached this, and like we have ideas about what 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:24.280 to do. 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:27.840 Exactly interesting but honestly the coolest thing about doctor Zucker 0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:30.000 and her team and they take all this data, all 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:32.840 this information that they gather, and then they apply it 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:37.440 to individual plans for individual people. So we asked her, Hey, 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:40.120 we're putting together a plan for Manny. Can you help 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:41.960 us sort of shape what that plan looks like. 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:50.760 So this is very simplistic, but like I have a 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:54.840 grid where it's like, you know, sweet and salty is, 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:57.480 let's say, on the X axis, and like chewy and 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:01.320 crunchy is on the y access And so like, Manny, 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:03.080 if you were to like plot the foods that you 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:05.600 currently prefer and eat, you know on this you can 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:07.359 get the picture right, like, you know, is there a 0:18:07.440 --> 0:18:10.240 kind of a pattern in terms of the textures and 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:11.479 tastes that you prefer? 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:17.720 So basically her advice was like, try to introduce fish 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.520 in a format that many might already like. So maybe 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.560 like a fish dish that's crunchy and salty, you know 0:18:23.640 --> 0:18:24.280 that sort of thing. 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:26.560 You know, like parents will often start with like fish 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:28.840 sticks for example. You know, like things like that are 0:18:28.920 --> 0:18:33.080 like really really crispy shrimp because there's more breading to fish. 0:18:33.400 --> 0:18:34.840 You know, you guys get the picture. 0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:39.920 She basically said, like start with fried foods or put 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:41.320 it in a sandwich. 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:42.960 Like she said, just putand just. 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:45.679 Like because I'm already used to eating sandwiches and I 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:48.280 like sandwiches. Like maybe if you do a fish sandwich, 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:50.560 this is like a very entry level way. 0:18:50.640 --> 0:18:53.080 Yeah, things that can help mask the fishiness. 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:56.359 Yes, or fried foods. Get do some fried fish, fish 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:56.880 and chips. 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:58.720 Yeah, fried fish. We're testing them. 0:18:58.760 --> 0:18:59.520 Fish sandwich. 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:04.520 Maybe she didn't say sandwich. Maybe that it's an example 0:19:05.280 --> 0:19:05.520 the doc. 0:19:09.480 --> 0:19:12.480 And she also said like you should be realistic about 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:14.520 what you're going to do, right, Like first step shouldn't 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:16.800 be like I'm going to eat a hundred. 0:19:16.600 --> 0:19:17.520 Bites of this fish. 0:19:17.600 --> 0:19:20.840 Yeah, She's like ticket one bite at a time, small bites, 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:24.600 like take the keys that your body is giving you 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:25.119 as well. 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:27.359 You know, like I would really do this, like be 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:31.000 gentle with yourself. Think about like how many bites I 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:32.760 want to kind of manage Do I want to just 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:35.040 get over that initial gag and call it a day. 0:19:35.760 --> 0:19:37.400