1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Said Podcast. 2 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: My guest today is author, investor Russia expert Bill Browner. Bill, 3 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: good to have you on the podcast. Agree to be here. 4 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: Can you please explain what the Magnitsky Act is? So, 5 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,639 Speaker 1: the Magnisky Act is a piece of legislation that was 6 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: passed in two thousand twelve. It's named after my lawyer, 7 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: Sergei Magnitsky. Serge was killed in a Russian prison in 8 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: two thousand nine after he exposed a massive government corruption 9 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: scheme and he testified against the officials involved, and in 10 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,480 Speaker 1: in retaliation, they had arrested him, put him in jail, 11 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: tortured him for three or fifty eight days, and as 12 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: I mentioned, they killed him on November six nine. I 13 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: then went after the the Russian government and all of 14 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: their officials who were involved in his murder. And the 15 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: result of my efforts was this piece of legislation, which 16 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:13,640 Speaker 1: was past four and Congress in the Senate and the 17 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: House of Representatives and signed into law on December four, 18 00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: two thousand and twelve by President Obama. Okay, now, are 19 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: there Magnetsky Acts in other countries around the world. Indeed, 20 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: after the US past the Magnetsky Act, Vladimir Putin went 21 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: out of his mind and he banned the adoption of 22 00:01:32,080 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: Russian orphans by American families. Um he made it his 23 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:39,760 Speaker 1: single largest foreign policy priority to repeal the Magnetskay Act. 24 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: And it was clear that we had hit the Achilles 25 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: heel of the Putin regime. So I then went out 26 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: and tried to get it past in all other countries 27 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 1: that I could. And so there's Magnetskay Act in Canada, 28 00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: there's one in Britain where I live. There's one in 29 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: the European Union. Twenty seven members of the EU have 30 00:01:57,760 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: Magnetsky Acts. When in Australia, one in Norway, one in Montenegro, 31 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: when in Kosovo. We even have it in the all 32 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 1: the British off overseas and offshore territories like the British 33 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: Virsion Islands and the Cayman Islands and Jersey and Gibraltar, 34 00:02:15,520 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: which may sound insignificant, but that's where a lot of 35 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:21,400 Speaker 1: the a lot of the bad guys stash their loot. 36 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: As a practical matter, hottest Magnitsky Act work. Well, what 37 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: happens is if somebody has done uh torture, murder like 38 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:35,320 Speaker 1: the what they've done to Serge magnitsky Um and the government, 39 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: you can prove it to the government to a high 40 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 1: standard of evidence, then they put that person on the 41 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: Magnitsky List, and the Magniski Act will then freeze their assets, 42 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 1: banned their visas, and publicly name their names. And it's 43 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: quite devastating because anybody who gets put on the Magnisky 44 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:56,079 Speaker 1: List effectively can't open a bank account anywhere in the world. 45 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 1: If you're on the U. S. Sanctions list, nobody wants 46 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,400 Speaker 1: to mess with you, as government makes it almost impossible 47 00:03:02,400 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: for these people to get visas anymore. And in my mind, 48 00:03:06,480 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: probably the best part about the whole thing is that 49 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: all these regimes eventually crumble at one point or another, 50 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: and all these people then can't go and flee to 51 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: a civilized country when Russia gets taken over by the 52 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: next guy, because all the civilized countries are gonna say, 53 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:24,919 Speaker 1: wait a second, you're on the Magniscy list, you're a 54 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: human rights biler. We don't want you. So how often 55 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 1: is someone on the list where it's just the fact 56 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: that it exists a disincentive to try to go to 57 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: another country. Well, I think that that it's it's a 58 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 1: disincentive the moment that they get put on the list 59 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: to try to go to another country because they know 60 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 1: that they won't be welcomed. I mean, there's another interesting 61 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: angle to the whole thing, which is that if somebody 62 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: is put on the Magniscy list, there's probably a hundred 63 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 1: other people who are terrified that they're going to be 64 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: put on the Magniscy List. And so it creates almost 65 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: like a reign of terror on all these bad guys 66 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: in these dictatorships because they're all worried abou this is 67 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: going to happen to them. Now, how much let's just 68 00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: call the illegal Russian assets are in the US? Can 69 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: that be quantified? Can that be reached in light of 70 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: the war going on in Ukraine? Should the US government 71 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:21,120 Speaker 1: attach and seize those assets? Well, the answer is absolutely yes. Um, 72 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: the US government is trying. It's um, it's a tough 73 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: it's a tough tough thing for them to do because 74 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: the Russians who have m accumulated all these assets, has 75 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: spent years, if not decades, preparing for this moment. So 76 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: all these assets are held in the names of shell 77 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: companies and trust companies and shell companies owning trust companies, 78 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: and then trust companies looking after nominee arrangements and so 79 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: on and and so forth. And so there's a whole layer 80 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: and layer and layer of stuff that needs to be 81 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: gone through. And so I think we're just getting started 82 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 1: in this whole process right now. But that' the objective 83 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: is to is to freeze the assets and seize the 84 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: assets of these oligarchs and people close to Laderma and Putin, 85 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: and they have a lot of assets. These people are 86 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: extremely rich. The kleptocracy was really revealed to the general 87 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 1: person in ten with all the graft and other expenses 88 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: with the socio Olympics. So what don't we know Putin 89 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:29,080 Speaker 1: took power, he has a dominimous salary, yet he's considered 90 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 1: to be the wealthiest person in the world. Explain how 91 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,880 Speaker 1: this works, how he and his cronies get the money, 92 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,239 Speaker 1: how he distributed to the understandings that it's his money, 93 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 1: even though in name it may not be. So. The 94 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 1: way it works is this. When you go into government 95 00:05:46,080 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: in Russia, um, nobody does it to serve the public. 96 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 1: If you if you're an American and you go into government, 97 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 1: you want to do it to serve the people. In Russia, 98 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: the only reason a person goes into government is to 99 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,040 Speaker 1: steal money. Um And the more the higher you are 100 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: in the government, the more money you can steal. And 101 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: the person who gets to steal the most money is 102 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: the most powerful person, which is the President of Russia. 103 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: And so over a long period of time, Vladimir Putin 104 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 1: has stolen an enormous amount of money. I estimate these 105 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 1: worth well north of two billion dollars personally. And if 106 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: we had to quantify the amount of money that's been 107 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 1: stolen in his twenty two years in power, he and 108 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 1: all the people around him, the thousand or so other 109 00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:33,239 Speaker 1: people who are involved in this thing, I would estimate 110 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 1: they've stolen a trillion dollars a thousand billion dollars from 111 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 1: the Russian state, from the Russian people. That's money that 112 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: should have gone to how build hospitals and schools and 113 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: phil potholes in the road, but instead it's gone to 114 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: uh pay for villas and yachts and Swiss bank accounts 115 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: and private jets. And and that's really the sort of 116 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 1: tragedy of the whole thing, is that it's the definitely 117 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 1: lots of victims of this crime, which are the people 118 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: of Russia. Now we hear that these oligarchs who are 119 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: named in the papers and other news media are really 120 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: holding Putent money and trust it's really not their money, 121 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 1: or most of it is not. Is that true? That's 122 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: exactly right. And so the way it works is that 123 00:07:19,680 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: there's no such thing as an independently wealthy person in Russia. 124 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: Anybody who's wealthy is dependently wealthy, and they're dependent on 125 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: Vladimir Putin and so um there. Their their whole arrangement 126 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: with him is that he allows them to keep some 127 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: of the money that they have stolen from wherever as 128 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 1: long as they give him a cut. And I I 129 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: estimate that he's a fifty shareholder and all this stuff. 130 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 1: So when you see an oligarch who's worth billion dollars 131 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 1: on paper, the reality is that he's only worth ten 132 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: because the other ten belongs to Vladimir Putin. And and 133 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: that's how the whole system works, is that these oligarchs, 134 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: when you when you see them all out there and 135 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 1: you want to go after Putin's money, you go after 136 00:08:06,640 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: the oligarch's money. So drilled down a little bit deeper. 137 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 1: Exactly how do they steal the money? Well, do we 138 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 1: have about twelve hours, because I can tell you twelve 139 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:17,880 Speaker 1: hours worth of ways in which they steal the money. 140 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: But let me give you a couple of good examples. 141 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 1: There's the example of what Sergei Magniski discovered and what 142 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: he was killed over. My company paid two million dollars 143 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: of taxes to the Russian government and we were then 144 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: my offices were then rated by the police, who then 145 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: seized all of our corporate documents and those documents were 146 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: then used to fraudulently reregister my companies that have paid 147 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: the taxes. And then they went and applied for a 148 00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: illegal to thirty million dollar tax refund and it was 149 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: approved by the tax authorities overnight and paid out the 150 00:08:57,280 --> 00:08:59,199 Speaker 1: next day, and it was the largest tax refund in 151 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: the history of Russia. UH. As one example, so you 152 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: know complex scheme, and it's it's actually ten times more 153 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: complicated than I've just explained it. Um. But that's one way. 154 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 1: And then I mean I could give you so for 155 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 1: example another one. UH they build a pipeline, an oil 156 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 1: pipeline from Russia to Turkey. Normally, if you go out 157 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: to a contractor and say how much does it cost 158 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: to build a pipeline? That contractor will say a million 159 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: dollars per kilometer, and of course the contractor is probably 160 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: even giving you a high price so they can make 161 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: a big margin. And then you look on the on 162 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: the balance sheet of gas prom and they've spent ten 163 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,960 Speaker 1: million dollars per kilometer to build a pipeline, so they 164 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 1: spent ten times the real the cost to the contractor 165 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: um so nine million dollars per kilometer then goes as 166 00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 1: kickbacks to the people who organized the construction project for 167 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: State Gas company. How do you get in on the action? 168 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: The only way you can get in on the action 169 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: is to be part of the criminal enterprise. And so 170 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: it's like, how do you become a member of the 171 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: New York mafia. You know, you have to be a 172 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,079 Speaker 1: made man. There's some special ways that people have become 173 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: made men there, but the main ways you you work 174 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,000 Speaker 1: in government, and generally you work in part the part 175 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: of the government that's the has the power to arrest people, 176 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: to take people hostage. So you work in one of 177 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 1: the security services, you work in the FSB, which is 178 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 1: their secret police, or you work in the Interior ministry 179 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 1: or which is the regular police, or you work in 180 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: the prosecutor's office. And then what you do once you're 181 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: in those places is you go around and arresting people 182 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: until they hand over stuff to you, until they become 183 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: a sort of client. And and so there's many many 184 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: people in jail who shouldn't be in jail and Russia 185 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: who are they put there so that all these crimes 186 00:10:56,400 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: could be committed without any questions being asked? So what 187 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,079 Speaker 1: is the head space of the average Russian citizen? Are 188 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: they aware of this? Do they go along? We have 189 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: Nivali who's resisting, But generally what's the mindset? The mindset 190 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: is this happens at every level of Russian society. It 191 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: happens down to the local mayor and the local policeman 192 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: right up to the President of Russia. Everybody accepts it. 193 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: They know it happens, and they only think in wish 194 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: that they could be so lucky as to be involved 195 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: in this. And so it's a it's a weird cynical, 196 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: almost defeatist attitude. And of course people at the same 197 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: time are pretty piste off by it, because you know 198 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,000 Speaker 1: that somebody is getting something that they're not, and so 199 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,240 Speaker 1: that they they they wish they had it, but it's 200 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: not like they're morally outraged. There's outraged that they're not, 201 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: you know, the recipients when somebody else is what is 202 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 1: the average quality of life in Russia? We have gross 203 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 1: incommittee quality. In the United States, there's somewhat of the 204 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 1: social safety net. What's the situation in Russia. It's just dramatic, 205 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 1: worse than than any any place in the world in 206 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,319 Speaker 1: terms of incoming inequality. There's a thousand people that control 207 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: like and I don't know the exact number, but like 208 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: more than of all the assets in the country, and 209 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: everybody else lives and lives in destitute poverty. It means 210 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: a very very small middle class. And the average Russian 211 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: is like, you know, living in a in a shack 212 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: on an unpaved dirt road and they have to use 213 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: an outhouse. I mean, it's just horrible. If we were 214 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 1: to quiz these people were old enough to remember, would 215 00:12:28,840 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: they say things were better or worse under communism? I 216 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 1: think the average Russian would say that things were better 217 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: under communism because at least in that period of time, 218 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: there wasn't this whole sort of criminal regime running the country. 219 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: It was you know, the people who are running the 220 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: country were dictators and oppressive and and not not agreeing 221 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 1: to freedom of speech and freedom of the press. But 222 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: but it wasn't a criminal organization where they were taking 223 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: all the money and spending on on on santrope villas. 224 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:02,680 Speaker 1: So how did you personally decide to move to Russian 225 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 1: invest in Russian companies? So that's an interesting story. My 226 00:13:06,120 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: grandfather was the general secretary of the American Communist Party 227 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:18,240 Speaker 1: between ninety and and so my family sort of followed 228 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 1: in his footsteps. And we're extremely before you go there, 229 00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 1: where was he originally born? Was he American? Were there 230 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: any roots here? So my grandfather was from Wichita, Kansas. 231 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: He was a labor union organizer. In n seven, he 232 00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: was spotted by the Communists in the Soviet Union and 233 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: they said, if you if you like labor unionism, you're 234 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: gonna love communism when you come over here and check 235 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 1: it out. So my grandfather moved to Moscow and he 236 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: did what most other single, red blooded American men do 237 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,199 Speaker 1: when they get to Moscow. He found a Russian girl 238 00:13:55,920 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: who became my grandmother. They had three sons, My father 239 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:04,760 Speaker 1: was one of them, who was born in Moscow, and 240 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: then he returned to America to Yonkers, New York, and 241 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: he became head of the American Communist Party. He ran 242 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: for president against Roosevelt in nineteen thirty six and nineteen 243 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: forty on the Communist ticket. He was actually imprisoned by 244 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 1: Roosevelt in nine and then pardon in nineteen two. Eventually 245 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: kicked out of the Communist Party in ninety five for 246 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: being too much of a capitalist, and then persecuted viciously 247 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: during the McCarthy era in the nineteen fifties. And so 248 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,400 Speaker 1: this was my family legacy. I was born in nineteen 249 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 1: sixty four, fifty eight years old, and when I was 250 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: going through my teenage rebellion, I tried to come up 251 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: with a good way of rebelling from this family of communists, 252 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 1: and I tried several things out. I grew my hair 253 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 1: along can't you can't tell because we're in a podcast, 254 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: but actually don't have any hair anymore. But it grew 255 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: into an afro um. But that, strangely, that didn't upset 256 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: my family. I followed the grateful dead around for a 257 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: couple of months. That didn't upset my family. Then I 258 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: came up with a perfect way of upsetting my family, 259 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 1: which was to put on a student tie and become 260 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: a capitalist, and that really upset them very much. So 261 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: I became a capitalist. I went to Stanford Business School. 262 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: I graduated business school in nine which is the year 263 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: of the Berlin Wall came down. And as I was 264 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: trying to figure out what to do with my life, 265 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: I had this epiphany one day, which is that of 266 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: my grandfather was the biggest communist in America, and the 267 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: Berlin Wall has just come down. I'm gonna try to 268 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 1: become the biggest capitalist in Eastern Europe. And that's what 269 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: I set out to do. And I originally moved to London, 270 00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: and then I moved to Moscow and I set up 271 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: an investment fund called the Hermitans. A little bit slower. 272 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: You graduated from Stanford, Is this your first employment situation? 273 00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: What are the companies you work for before you become 274 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: a dependent? So at first I went to the Boston 275 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:06,920 Speaker 1: Consulting Group. I was the My first job was in 276 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: the East European practice of the Boston Consulting Group in London, 277 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: and my very first assignment was to go out to Poland. 278 00:16:16,120 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: They sent me out to a bus company, a failing 279 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 1: bus company on the Polish Ukrainian border in a little 280 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: town called Sanak, And the only there was a very 281 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: low paying assignment. The World Bank was paying the fees 282 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: and they could only afford to send out a first 283 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: year associate like myself. So I go out to this 284 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: little town, um and this bus factory is just in 285 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:47,080 Speaker 1: a horrific condition. The main problem was that the state company, 286 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 1: state bus company that buys the buses from the factory, 287 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: stopped their orders and they were responsible from their sales, 288 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: and so all of a sudden they were down. And 289 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: so it was kind of painful assignment because the main, uh, 290 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: the obvious thing to do. If you've lost your sales, 291 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,479 Speaker 1: you've got to cut your costs, and that meant firing 292 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,600 Speaker 1: a lot of people in a town, which was effectively 293 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,800 Speaker 1: in one company town. So it was very depressing assignment. 294 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: But while I was walking around sort of making lists 295 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:24,959 Speaker 1: of people that probably should be fired, I had this translator. 296 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 1: His name was Lesk, and I noticed, and he was 297 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,879 Speaker 1: always following me around and translating wherever I need to be, 298 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,880 Speaker 1: wherever I need a translation, And he had this newspaper 299 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 1: under his arm, and I noticed that all these financial 300 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 1: figures on his newspaper and I I asked him what 301 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: are those and he said, ah, these are the very 302 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: first privatizations. I thought that that kind of piqued my interest, 303 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 1: and I said, can you explain them to me? And 304 00:17:51,000 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: so we went into a conference room and he laid 305 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: out the paper on the table and I said, what's 306 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: this number and he said, that's the number of shares 307 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: outstanding of the company. And I said what's this number? 308 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: He said, that's the the share price that the government's 309 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:09,399 Speaker 1: selling the shares. And I'm multiply the two numbers together 310 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: and it got got to eighty million dollars, which is 311 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: the value of the company. And then I said, what's 312 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 1: this number, the one right below that? Uh? And he 313 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: said this is the net income of the company, the earnings. 314 00:18:25,200 --> 00:18:26,719 Speaker 1: I said, no, no, no, that that that must not 315 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,400 Speaker 1: be right. He said, I said, just read it, read 316 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: it word for word, and it's like net income of company. 317 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: And that number was a hundred and sixty million dollars. 318 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: So you don't have to be a Stanford NBA or 319 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: even a financial professional to understand that if you can 320 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: buy a company for eighty million dollars and it earned 321 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:51,800 Speaker 1: a hundred and sixty million dollars in the previous year. Um. 322 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: Then basically all you have to do is hold the 323 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 1: shares for half a year and you've already got your 324 00:18:55,640 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 1: money back. And so and this was this was not 325 00:19:00,200 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: the bus company we're working at. It was another company. 326 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:04,520 Speaker 1: And so I said, well, how do we buy shares 327 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: of it? And he said, oh, it's very easy. We 328 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:09,640 Speaker 1: we we can go to the post office and and 329 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: fill out an application form. And I thought, God, this 330 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: is like crazy. I I mean, I was very young, 331 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: I didn't have much money, but I had I think 332 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 1: I had like two thousand dollars of savings total life savings. 333 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:28,600 Speaker 1: And I converted my two thousand dollars of life savings 334 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: to Polish lotty. UM. I went down to the post 335 00:19:32,840 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 1: office with Leschek and I subscribed to the very first 336 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: privatizations and and over the next year I made ten 337 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: times my money. And there's this uh, weird chemical that 338 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,880 Speaker 1: gets released in your stomach when you make ten times 339 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: your money on an investment. It's like crack cocaine. You 340 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: want to you want to have, you want to do 341 00:19:57,040 --> 00:19:59,440 Speaker 1: it again and again and again, And that was the 342 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 1: moment I just I didn't. I didn't. I didn't want 343 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: to be a consultant anymore. I wanted to be an 344 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: investor in all this stuff. So what was the next step? 345 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 1: Fast forward a little bit. UM. I ended up at 346 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: Solomon Brothers. Solomon Brothers um is used to be one 347 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: of the big investment banks made made famous by liars poker. 348 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,399 Speaker 1: You have a Michael Lewis book exactly. So I joined 349 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: the East European investment banking team at Solomon Brothers. And 350 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 1: my very first assignment at Solomon Brothers was to advise 351 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 1: a fishing fleet called the Mermants Trawler Fleet located in 352 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: mermantsk which is a hundred miles north of the Arctic Circle. 353 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,560 Speaker 1: I think it's the furthest north population center in the world. 354 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: So I go up to murmansk Um to advise this 355 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,640 Speaker 1: management of this fishing fleet. And I get up there 356 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: and the head of the fishing fleet meets me at 357 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: the airport and he says, before we have our business meetings, 358 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: so I just want to take you on a little 359 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: tour so you can see what one of our trawlers 360 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:07,320 Speaker 1: looks like. So we go down to the docks, and 361 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: in front of me is this enormous vessel. It's like 362 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,280 Speaker 1: four or five feet long and on the and it's 363 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: on all multiple decks, and on the top deck there's 364 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:20,720 Speaker 1: this uh nets to catch the fish, and then the 365 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: next level there's they separate the fish. Then the next 366 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: level they treat the fish, and all the way down 367 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 1: to the to the lowest level where they have these 368 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 1: canning machines which they put the fish into cans. And 369 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 1: so this wasn't just a fishing vessel. This was like 370 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: an ocean going factory, ocean going fish factory. And I 371 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:47,960 Speaker 1: am I asked the guy, the management, the manager, the 372 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,960 Speaker 1: CEO of this of this fleet. I said, how much 373 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: is one of these things cost? And he says twenty 374 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: million dollars new? And then I say, how many do 375 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: you have in your fleet? A hundred, So twenty million 376 00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:04,360 Speaker 1: dollars times a hundred, because he has two billion dollars. 377 00:22:05,640 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: And I said, what's the average age of your ships? 378 00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: He is his seven years. Now. I don't know anything 379 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: about ships for fishing, but I figured that makes them 380 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: maybe half depreciate it. So billion dollars with the ships, 381 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: and the reason that this guy had hired me was 382 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: to um advise him, revise him and his management team 383 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: on whether to exercise their legitimate right under the privatization 384 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 1: program of Russia to buy of the shares of this company. 385 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,439 Speaker 1: And so I asked him, at what price is the 386 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: government selling you? And he said two and a half 387 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:48,600 Speaker 1: million dollars. So let me just repeat the math. So 388 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: there's a billion dollars with the ships, and you can 389 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:56,920 Speaker 1: buy for two and a half million dollars. So I 390 00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,439 Speaker 1: got that feeling in my stomach, you know, the one 391 00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:03,199 Speaker 1: I had from the ten bagger in Poland. And I'm 392 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: thinking to myself, I don't want to be advising on 393 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: this stuff. I want I want to uh, I want 394 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: to own this stuff. And so instead of going back 395 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: to London, which was where I lived, I am flew 396 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: to Moscow and I got a I bought a very 397 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: thin English language yellow page directory that they sell at 398 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: the airport, and I went to my hotel room at 399 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: the Metropol Hotel and I started cold calling people in 400 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: the yellow pages to see whether someone could explain to 401 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:37,239 Speaker 1: me how the Russian privatization program worked. And so I 402 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 1: started having these meetings and over the course of a week, 403 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:45,640 Speaker 1: I had forty or so meetings, and from those four 404 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 1: or so meetings, I figured out that the Russian privatization 405 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:54,880 Speaker 1: program was and always will be the single most compelling 406 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: investment opportunity that's ever existed in the history of financial markets. 407 00:23:59,840 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 1: And what I had learned was that the main way 408 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,960 Speaker 1: in which the Russian government was privatizing everything was through 409 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: something called the mass privatization program, and the mass privatization 410 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: program they gave away a physical certificate, a voucher they 411 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: called them, to every person in the country. So they 412 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,640 Speaker 1: spread these vouchers out for free to everybody in the country. 413 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 1: And these vouchers were tradeable, sellable, givable, takeable, whatever you 414 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 1: wanted to do with your voucher. You could do whatever 415 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 1: you want, there's no restriction. And as a result, a 416 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,720 Speaker 1: secondary market emerged for these vouchers. And again, to do 417 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: a simple math, they traded for about twenty dollars each 418 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: dred and fifty million of them in circulation because that 419 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:53,399 Speaker 1: was the population of Russia. So multiply twenty times a 420 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 1: d fifty million, that gets to three billion dollars worth 421 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:01,720 Speaker 1: of vouchers that were in circulation. And those three billion 422 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: dollars with vouchers were exchangeable for the shares of every 423 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: single Russian company. So what that meant was that the 424 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:19,000 Speaker 1: total value of the entire country of Russia was ten 425 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: billion dollars. Now that's for the whole country. This is 426 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 1: a country with thirty five of the world's natural gas, 427 00:25:29,160 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 1: ten percent of the world's oil, ten percent of the 428 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 1: world steel, ten percent of the world's aluminum. There's fertilizer companies, 429 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: car companies, and telephone companies, you name it, they had it. 430 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,120 Speaker 1: I means it's a full economy all For ten billion dollars. 431 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:49,640 Speaker 1: You couldn't buy it like one midsized Oklahoma oil company. 432 00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: For ten billion dollars, you could buy the entire country 433 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:57,160 Speaker 1: of Russia. And so I just got crazy with with excitement. 434 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: This was just the best thing I had ever seen. 435 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: I go back to Solomon Brothers and I try to 436 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: convince them that we should invest in Russia. And it 437 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: took a while before I was able to overcome all 438 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: the doubt, but I eventually got twenty five million dollars 439 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: put that money to work, and about six months after 440 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: I invested that million dollars, the Economist magazine wrote an 441 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 1: article called Sale of the century where they just went 442 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: through the same math that I've shared with you. And 443 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,960 Speaker 1: on the back of that article, a whole bunch of people, 444 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 1: big investors, billionaires, hedge fund managers, etcetera, all wanted to 445 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: get in on the action. And it was a tiny, little, 446 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,919 Speaker 1: thinly traded, a liquid stock market, and all of a sudden, 447 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:55,120 Speaker 1: all these big eighteen pound guerrillas um start filtering in 448 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: in a tiny through a tiny little door, and over 449 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: a three week period, the stock market went up and 450 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: our million dollars turned into five million dollars, and all 451 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 1: of a sudden everyone wanted to know me. They started 452 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: taking me around to all the big investors on Wall Street, 453 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: and one of them, a man named Edmund saffra Uh, 454 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: said he would give me tillion dollars to start my 455 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 1: own fund. And so I moved to Moscow. And this 456 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: is no set up. A company called Hermitage Capital Management 457 00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: started a fund called the Hermitage Fund with dollars from 458 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: saffra and it was just an incredible launch. Over the 459 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: next eighteen months we were up eight Okay, you were 460 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 1: an individual, and now after this Economist article, everybody is in. 461 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: Was everybody doing that well or was something you knew 462 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:04,919 Speaker 1: that nobody else did. And what accounts for that huge increase. Well, 463 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,199 Speaker 1: what happened was that all the other investors were sitting 464 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: in New York, in London and Geneva and other places, 465 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: and I was on the ground in Moscow. And there's 466 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,440 Speaker 1: an expression in the Land of the Blind, the one 467 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:24,480 Speaker 1: eyed man as king, and and so it's one of 468 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 1: these weird things where like you could get the most 469 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: unbelievable information just by showing up. So all the guys 470 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 1: in in New York, we're having to rely on other 471 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,640 Speaker 1: people to tell them what was going on, And so 472 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: they would tell them about one oil company called Luke 473 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: Oil that's a famous Russian oil company. And they did 474 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:45,840 Speaker 1: a lot of research on Luke Oil because there was 475 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,959 Speaker 1: a lot of shares trading, and they get big commissions 476 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: the brokers. And I'm thinking, okay, yeah, that's interesting, But 477 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,239 Speaker 1: what about this other oil company. It's almost as big 478 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: as Luke Oil, and it trades it about a discount 479 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: of Luke Oil because nobody has bothered to show up 480 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: and ask a few questions at the company, which I did. 481 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:07,760 Speaker 1: So I'd buy shares of the of the one that 482 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: was much cheaper and and so I ended up doing 483 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,959 Speaker 1: phenomenally well for a period of time. Did you speak 484 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,760 Speaker 1: Russian not a word? Did you go into a brilitche 485 00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,800 Speaker 1: program or you just said I'm never gonna know it. 486 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: I tried to learn it, but the things we're moving 487 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,080 Speaker 1: so fast in the business world that I just, you know, 488 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,920 Speaker 1: I couldn't take two hours out of my day to 489 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: do it. I mean, I just I didn't even have 490 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: a minute to to rest or, to think or do anything. 491 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 1: I was It was like riding a dirt bike. You 492 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: just had to keep your hands on the handlebar the 493 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 1: whole time or else you get thrown off. So I 494 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: didn't speak Russian. I had some good Russians working for me. 495 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: I ended up marrying a Russian who spoke perfect English, 496 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: and so somehow I was able to manage without speaking 497 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: the language amazingly. Okay, how many Bill Browders were there 498 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 1: in that era? Just one Bill Browder? Me? Really, no 499 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: one else followed your half? Well, how do there were? 500 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: There are a few guys who are trying to but 501 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: nobody ever could pull it off. It was I mean, yeah, 502 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: I mean, there was like there was one, you know, 503 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: one couple of guys that were like, you know, sort 504 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: of nipping at my heels and stuff like that. But 505 00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:16,000 Speaker 1: but for the most part, I was like sort of 506 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 1: you know, there was it was an incredible, um you know, 507 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 1: incredible to be the sort of king of this little sandbox. Now. 508 00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: Needlet's say you went to business school and you're sophisticated, 509 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: but everybody is. And if you take this twenty five 510 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: million dollars and you invested, it is not your money, 511 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 1: Mr Saffros, how much of that do you get? Well, 512 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: what happens is if it goes up, I got and 513 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 1: so um as things started going up, I started making 514 00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: a lot of money. And did you keep that money? 515 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: In Russia? It's like, you know, when your company is 516 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: going up in silicon value, most people take some money 517 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: off the table just in case it crashes, or did 518 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 1: you keep all your money in the game. What what 519 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: happened was eventually started to piss off the Russian government 520 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: by complaining about corruption because all the companies. I discovered 521 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 1: that all the companies I was invested in were corrupt, 522 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: and and I would do these naming and shaming campaigns 523 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: where I had researched the corruption and then expose it, 524 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: which were very successful. These campaigns. But eventually they got 525 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: angry with me and they expelled me from the country. 526 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: And when they expelled me from the country, I sold everything. 527 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 1: And when I sold everything, I crystallized my profits. And 528 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: so there's an expression better lucky than smart um. But 529 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: they kicked me out like ten percent below the top 530 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: of the market, and I was able to crystallize the 531 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,960 Speaker 1: profits from my clients and take my own money off 532 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: the table. And so it was an extraordinary um sort 533 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,160 Speaker 1: of turn of events, which I don't think anyone intended 534 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: it to be the way it was, but worked out 535 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 1: financially very well for me. Now this late date, Hermitage 536 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 1: Capital still exists. What does it invest in? Hermage Capital 537 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: doesn't invest in anything. I gave up investing a long 538 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 1: time ago after Sergaymagnitsky was killed. I still have a 539 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: website and a business card and a and a company 540 00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: formation that's called Hermitage Capital. But basically what I do 541 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: day in, day out now is is a fight for 542 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: justice for my murdered lawyer, s Gaymagnitsky. Okay, but you 543 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: do have employees, what are they doing? They're helping me 544 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: find out who's committed what crimes, where help me do 545 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: the research into the money laundering connected to the Magnitsky murder. 546 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,920 Speaker 1: It's like a It's like a sort of h Batman 547 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: type of operation where we have ah an operation to 548 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 1: go after the bad guys. And who is managing your 549 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: money and how actively today? I've managed my money as 550 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 1: sort of an afterthought and not very actively at all. Okay, 551 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 1: let's go back, and as I say, Americans tend to 552 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: be unsophisticated, even about their own country. So tell us 553 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: what is happening in Russian history and Russian government concomitant 554 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,120 Speaker 1: ly with your enterprise when you moved there, et cetera. 555 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: When I moved to Russia in it was total chaos. 556 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: It was Yelson was the president of Russia. Um he 557 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: had done a deal with the oligarchs where basically he 558 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 1: allowed them to steal forty pc of the country. There's 559 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: twenty two of these guys in exchange, they would use 560 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: all of their resources to support him and make sure 561 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: he stayed in power. As a results of this massive 562 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,960 Speaker 1: theft and compromise that Yelson made, the life expectancy of 563 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: a male in Russia was like fifty seven years. Just 564 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:02,239 Speaker 1: a terrible place to live. Everything didn't work. It was 565 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: just horrific and humiliating and horrible. And then at the 566 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: as Jelson was looking particularly frail and and like he 567 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: was going to die of a heart attack or some 568 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 1: other thing, he decided to put in his successor, and 569 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: his successor ultimately was Vladimir Putin. Let's stop there for 570 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,960 Speaker 1: a second. Some people say that Yelsen was impressed with 571 00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:37,200 Speaker 1: how Putin got another criminal. I think it was a 572 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,279 Speaker 1: mayor out of the country, and he put Putin in 573 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,760 Speaker 1: with the understanding that he would make sure he wasn't prosecuted. 574 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: Is that true? To what degree is that known by 575 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:50,120 Speaker 1: the public. Untrue, That's very true. It's the crux of 576 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: the whole situation. Well, let me back up. Yelson needed 577 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 1: to have somebody who would pardon him as the first 578 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: act of being the new president of Russia. Um, why 579 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: did Yelson need that? Because he had done so many 580 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,760 Speaker 1: compromises and the illegal things that he was worried about 581 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: being indicted so and he was also knowing for sure 582 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: that he couldn't last being president that much longer. So 583 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,040 Speaker 1: his goal was to find somebody who was strong enough 584 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:25,160 Speaker 1: to be to become president, stay as president, not lose 585 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 1: it so that the pardon with stick, and he actually 586 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: went through three other candidates who became prime minister. They 587 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 1: had three different prime ministers who, for one reason or 588 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 1: another he chose badly didn't work out, and so he 589 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: would fire one and replace them with another. And so 590 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:52,319 Speaker 1: Putin was actually Yelson's fourth choice, so and and and 591 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 1: it was almost like you know, when you're kind of 592 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,720 Speaker 1: like running out of options, and and what everybody thought 593 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: Putin would be good for was that he was very 594 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:08,000 Speaker 1: sober um, sort of kept his cards close to the chest, 595 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 1: but it seemed like a technocrat, and it was extremely loyal. 596 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 1: And you mentioned his story about how his boss who 597 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: was the mayor, he was the deputy mayor of St. Petersburg. 598 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: Putin was and his boss kind named Subcheck was the 599 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 1: mayor and there was some corruption scandal and he got 600 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 1: Subcheck out of the country um and put him in 601 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 1: a like hospital in Paris or something like that where 602 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: they couldn't get get hold of him. And so that 603 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: was a good sign for Yelson. And so when he 604 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: finally picked his fourth choice Putin, he did so on 605 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,719 Speaker 1: that basis and and uh, probably a few other criteria 606 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,880 Speaker 1: as well. Now being in the country. Obviously it's corrupt. 607 00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:55,160 Speaker 1: Could you feel a difference with the transition of power? Now, 608 00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:59,480 Speaker 1: supposedly they jinned up a war crisis to help the transition, 609 00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 1: But what was like for you and the people during 610 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 1: this transition? So the transition, well, it wasn't clear how 611 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 1: this transition was going to work because the big problem 612 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: with Putin so he seemed you know, not and not, 613 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 1: he wasn't drunk and all that kind of stuff. But 614 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: the problem, um is that nobody had ever heard of 615 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 1: this guy. He was a total enigma. And um that 616 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: Putin had to be elected president. So what happened was 617 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: they appointed him Prime Minister. Yelson resigns as president. Putin 618 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 1: becomes acting president, but he has to be in three 619 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 1: months time, there's gonna be an election and he has 620 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: to be elected president. And this was back in the 621 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:43,080 Speaker 1: days when democracy still existed in Russia. So what did 622 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:49,640 Speaker 1: Putin do? Putin, Um, he had this organization under him 623 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: called the FSB, which used to be called the KGB, 624 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 1: the secret police, and the secret police started planting apartment 625 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 1: bombs inside Moscow and then blowing up apartment buildings with 626 00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,080 Speaker 1: people inside of them. And I was there at the time, 627 00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: and so one building would blow up, and and everybody 628 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 1: in the entire city of Moscow would be horrified. And 629 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,800 Speaker 1: you see these pictures and the mangled bodies and the 630 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: destroyed buildings, And then the next couple of days, another 631 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:25,520 Speaker 1: building would blow up, more mangled bodies, and and like, 632 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: there wasn't a single person in Moscow, including myself, that 633 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: could sleep peacefully through the night because you're all thinking. 634 00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: Everyone thought they were going to be in an apartment 635 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 1: that blows up. And eventually um Putin and his guys 636 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 1: planted a bomb in in a in a provincial city 637 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:48,919 Speaker 1: outside of Moscow. Uh, but the local police, who weren't 638 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: in on the scam, caught them in on the act, 639 00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 1: and uh, and it became obvious that this was not uh, 640 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 1: so it was Putin doing the bombs. But Putin blamed 641 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:06,560 Speaker 1: the whole thing on Chechens. Chechen. The Chechens are a 642 00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,080 Speaker 1: group of people that live in southern Russia. They look 643 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,200 Speaker 1: darker than the average Russian and they were kind of 644 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 1: blamed for all Russia's problems, and so Putin blamed it 645 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 1: on the Chechens. And and everybody was so angry and 646 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: upset and insecure because of all this U all these 647 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,720 Speaker 1: apartment bombs going off and thinking they'd be in them. 648 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: Everyone wanted revenge and blood and reaction and something somebody tough, 649 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,839 Speaker 1: and so Putin then says, it's the Chechens who did this. 650 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna bomb them wherever they are, even in the 651 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: ship house. He said. That was a famous quote from Putin, 652 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: and all the Russians cheered. Putin started the war against 653 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: Czechnia and literally flattened Grozni, which is their capital, to 654 00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:55,520 Speaker 1: the ground. There wasn't like a building left standing, killing 655 00:39:55,560 --> 00:40:01,080 Speaker 1: tens of thousands of Chechens. And guess what his approval 656 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:05,520 Speaker 1: ratings went through the roof. And so Putin learned at 657 00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 1: that moment in time how valuable wars were in solidifying 658 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 1: his support. And that's not a lesson that was lost 659 00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,359 Speaker 1: on him, because he's fought a few more wars at 660 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: times when he was feeling insecure. Okay, you're using your 661 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 1: American values in Russia, you're fighting corruption. Do you ever 662 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,239 Speaker 1: think I'm a fish out of water here? This is 663 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 1: gonna end, There's gonna be trouble or were you so 664 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:34,319 Speaker 1: caught up in your capitalistic ways that you felt no, no, 665 00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,360 Speaker 1: this is numbers. This is gonna work. Well, it's a 666 00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 1: bit of a lot of things. So in order to 667 00:40:39,280 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: go to Russia, a normal person wouldn't have gone to Russia. 668 00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: A normal person would have said, this is crazy. They're 669 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: killing people in the streets, They're doing all sorts of stuff. 670 00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:51,520 Speaker 1: So in order to go to Russia, you kind of 671 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,719 Speaker 1: have to have your risk sensors sanded down. In the 672 00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,839 Speaker 1: first place. You can't be thinking all these bad things 673 00:40:57,880 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 1: are gonna happen to you, because there's too many bad 674 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: things that you can think about that might happen to you. 675 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:06,959 Speaker 1: And so let's say that my risk sensors were sanded down. 676 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: And then when I got there, I started small and 677 00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: started making money for my clients. For myself, I started 678 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:22,000 Speaker 1: making more money, and after a while I had a 679 00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 1: big business there, and so I had a lot to 680 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 1: lose if I ever were to like leave. And then 681 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 1: the first rip offs started to happen. And the first 682 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 1: big rip off was was a guy named Vladimir Batannan. 683 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 1: He's a famous oligarch. Tried to steal my shares in 684 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:43,000 Speaker 1: an oil company called Sedanco A little bit slower. What 685 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,480 Speaker 1: year resist and how did he try to steal them? 686 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 1: So this was in nineteen I think I owned two 687 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:54,879 Speaker 1: percent of Sedanko, and Sedanco was an oil company that 688 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: was um trading at a huge discount to the other 689 00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,960 Speaker 1: big oil companies, and I brought into it, and this guy, 690 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:10,760 Speaker 1: Vladimer Britanon owned and I can't remember the exact numbers, 691 00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,480 Speaker 1: but but I am. I think I paid twelve million 692 00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:20,399 Speaker 1: dollars for my two percent, and about a year later, 693 00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 1: Vladimir Britannon sold ten percent of his to British Petroleum 694 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 1: at a price that would have valued my hat like 695 00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 1: a twenty million. So I had made like ten times 696 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,879 Speaker 1: my money, and I was feeling just like the best 697 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 1: guy in the world. I mean that was I was. 698 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,839 Speaker 1: I would think I was barely even thirty years old, 699 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,880 Speaker 1: and I just made this enormous fortune for my clients. 700 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:54,280 Speaker 1: Remember I got of that myself, and so I'm feeling 701 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 1: just the king of the world. And then Batanon comes along, 702 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 1: and this is a really interesting Russian phenomenon where he 703 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:05,839 Speaker 1: wasn't celebrating the fact that he owned forty times more 704 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,440 Speaker 1: shares of Sedanco and he was immensely rich based on 705 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:15,560 Speaker 1: this BP transaction. Somehow it bothered him. It really bothered him. 706 00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:18,680 Speaker 1: That that I made money on this deal, Like, why 707 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:21,360 Speaker 1: was I allowed to make the money? Somehow, he felt 708 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:26,600 Speaker 1: like that was just wrong, and so he organized a 709 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:31,120 Speaker 1: machination where he would sell himself in his cronies more 710 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:36,080 Speaker 1: shares of the company at a huge discount to the 711 00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:41,240 Speaker 1: normal price and not allow me to invest, which meant 712 00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,279 Speaker 1: meant basically that they were going to steal. I think 713 00:43:44,280 --> 00:43:46,680 Speaker 1: they were gonna try to steal the equivalent of seventy 714 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 1: million dollars from me in terms of this machination. And 715 00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:53,360 Speaker 1: so at this point I had a lot to lose, 716 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:59,960 Speaker 1: and so uh, I decided to fight him. And nobody 717 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,360 Speaker 1: had ever fought an oligarch before in Russia. It's certainly 718 00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:07,359 Speaker 1: not some guy from the south side of Chicago. And 719 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:08,960 Speaker 1: so I fight him. And the way that I fought 720 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,040 Speaker 1: with him was first, first I went to him, it's 721 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:14,799 Speaker 1: just asked him to stop it. Of course he laughed 722 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,200 Speaker 1: at me. I didn't go to him personally. I went 723 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:21,480 Speaker 1: to one of his representatives. Uh. Then I went to 724 00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,600 Speaker 1: all the other Western investors who had done business with 725 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:26,839 Speaker 1: him and showed them what they did, what he had done. 726 00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,759 Speaker 1: Then I went to the newspapers and went public with 727 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:35,680 Speaker 1: the whole thing. And then I eventually went to an 728 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:41,880 Speaker 1: obscure government official was involved in securities regulation and immense 729 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 1: amazingly and this has rarely ever happened in Russia before 730 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:52,880 Speaker 1: or after this regulator canceled this this financial uh uh 731 00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: scam that he was organizing, and I was brought back 732 00:44:56,080 --> 00:45:01,399 Speaker 1: to normal. And and my success in this for crisis, 733 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:08,640 Speaker 1: this first approach and first stealing thing, um gave me 734 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 1: such confidence that I decided to do it again. And 735 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:18,560 Speaker 1: I did it at the national gas company gas BROM 736 00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:21,120 Speaker 1: and then I did it again at the National Savings 737 00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,759 Speaker 1: Bank Spare Bank, and and then at one of the 738 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,719 Speaker 1: oil company is called Circo deft to Gas. And I 739 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:29,840 Speaker 1: was just doing this over and over and over again 740 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,200 Speaker 1: and and and the thing about it is sort of 741 00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:35,719 Speaker 1: it's all incremental. You start these fights and then you 742 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,080 Speaker 1: do another one, and and so you ask like, why 743 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,320 Speaker 1: was I doing it? Wasn't it was it wasn't crazy. 744 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,240 Speaker 1: And I had just gotten such a sense of confidence 745 00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:45,640 Speaker 1: and somehow I could get away with it that I 746 00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:51,360 Speaker 1: just kept on doing it. And of course anyone who 747 00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:53,799 Speaker 1: google's my name will know that that didn't turn out 748 00:45:53,800 --> 00:46:04,560 Speaker 1: so well. So what was the triggered exile. Well, that's 749 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,239 Speaker 1: a good question, one that there's no definitive answer. It 750 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:11,400 Speaker 1: was either going after gas Prom, which is the largest 751 00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:14,319 Speaker 1: company in Russia, or going after this company called Sir 752 00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,960 Speaker 1: good neft to gas which is a very murky and 753 00:46:17,000 --> 00:46:22,120 Speaker 1: criminalized oil company. Either way. Um, In November of two 754 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:26,239 Speaker 1: thousand five, as I was flying back to Russia from 755 00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:30,480 Speaker 1: a business trip abroad from London, I was stopped at 756 00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:34,640 Speaker 1: the border. I was arrested, I was put in the 757 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:38,240 Speaker 1: airport detention center. I was kept there for fifteen hours, 758 00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,920 Speaker 1: and then I was deported back to London and declared 759 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:45,480 Speaker 1: a threat to national security. Okay, if you read the 760 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:49,319 Speaker 1: second book, especially Freezing Order, which is relatively new book 761 00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,200 Speaker 1: came out two months ago, the case is made that 762 00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,839 Speaker 1: Putin literally knows who you are, and it's after you 763 00:46:55,920 --> 00:46:59,200 Speaker 1: as an individual. You know that doesn't happen in America 764 00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,640 Speaker 1: to that degree. What's going on? Hey? Is that true? 765 00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:06,040 Speaker 1: Would be? What's the backstory? It's true? Um? And UM? 766 00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,640 Speaker 1: I can prove it by by showing you a clip 767 00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:13,279 Speaker 1: of the Putin Trump summit in Helsinki where you can 768 00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,879 Speaker 1: hear Putin uttering my name and asking Trump to hand 769 00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,640 Speaker 1: me over and in response, you can hear Trump saying, 770 00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,800 Speaker 1: I think that's a great idea. But the backstory to 771 00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:32,600 Speaker 1: that is that after I was expelled ah from Russia, UM, 772 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:37,759 Speaker 1: my offices were rated and the police seized all of 773 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:44,160 Speaker 1: my documents corporate documents for investment holding companies, and those 774 00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:51,520 Speaker 1: documents UM were then used to fraudulently reregister our investment 775 00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:54,880 Speaker 1: holding companies out of our name into the name of 776 00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:57,359 Speaker 1: a guy who had been convicted of manslaughter and let 777 00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:01,600 Speaker 1: out of jail. Early at this point I hired the 778 00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,640 Speaker 1: smartest lawyer I knew in Russia, a young man named 779 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:11,919 Speaker 1: Sergey Magnitsky. I asked Sergey to investigate. Serge went and investigated, 780 00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:15,640 Speaker 1: and he came back and he said, the reason that 781 00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:20,000 Speaker 1: they stole your companies was to steal twoty million dollars 782 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:23,200 Speaker 1: of taxes that you paid to the Russian government in 783 00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:27,320 Speaker 1: the previous year. They came up with a very complicated 784 00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:35,799 Speaker 1: machination to do that. And when we discovered this, Serge 785 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:40,680 Speaker 1: was particularly shocked because he thought that Putin was a 786 00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:45,360 Speaker 1: nationalist and that he wouldn't have allowed nearly a quarter 787 00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,560 Speaker 1: of a billion dollars of government money to be stolen, 788 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:53,160 Speaker 1: and he figured, if we just wrote complaints to the 789 00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:57,640 Speaker 1: highest level of the Russian government, then the good guys 790 00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:59,160 Speaker 1: will get the bad guys and that would be the 791 00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:03,040 Speaker 1: end of the story. And so Serge wrote criminal complaints 792 00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:07,920 Speaker 1: to every different branch of Russian law enforcement. I went 793 00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:12,839 Speaker 1: to the TV radio newspapers highlighted the story, and then 794 00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:17,480 Speaker 1: Surge gave swegn testimony to the Russian State Investigative Committee, 795 00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:21,680 Speaker 1: which is their version of the FBI. And then we 796 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,360 Speaker 1: sat back and we waited for the good guys to 797 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,480 Speaker 1: get the bad guys. Well, it turns out, then Vladimir 798 00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:33,640 Speaker 1: Putin's Russia, there's no good guys about uh. Five weeks 799 00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:38,400 Speaker 1: after Surge testified, the same police officers he testified against 800 00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:45,480 Speaker 1: came to his home on November two eight and they 801 00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:50,040 Speaker 1: arrested him. They put him in pre trial detention and 802 00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,440 Speaker 1: then they tortured him to get him to withdraw his testimony. 803 00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:55,680 Speaker 1: They put him in cells with fourteen inmates and eight beds, 804 00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,360 Speaker 1: left lights on twenty four hours a day to impose 805 00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,760 Speaker 1: sleep deprivation. They put him in cells with no heat 806 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,400 Speaker 1: and no window panes. In December and Moscow, so he 807 00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:08,840 Speaker 1: newly froze to death. They put him in cells with 808 00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:10,440 Speaker 1: no toilet, just a hole in the floor where the 809 00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:13,719 Speaker 1: sewage would bubble up. They moved him from cell to 810 00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:17,200 Speaker 1: cell to cell in the middle of the night. And 811 00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:18,680 Speaker 1: the purpose of all this was to get him to 812 00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:23,359 Speaker 1: withdraw his testimony against the corrupt police officers and again 813 00:50:23,440 --> 00:50:25,600 Speaker 1: him to sign his false confession, to say that he's 814 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:28,560 Speaker 1: told the two thirty million dollars. And he did so 815 00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:32,640 Speaker 1: on my instruction. And Sergey was a man of such 816 00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:36,600 Speaker 1: incredible integrity and principle that for him the idea of 817 00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:41,120 Speaker 1: perjuring himself and bearing false witness it was more awful 818 00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:44,319 Speaker 1: than the physical pain they were subjecting him to. And 819 00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:51,680 Speaker 1: he refused, and in retaliation they then up to the 820 00:50:51,719 --> 00:50:56,520 Speaker 1: torture and went after him even further. And after about 821 00:50:56,560 --> 00:51:00,520 Speaker 1: six months of this, his health started to digterior. He 822 00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:05,480 Speaker 1: got terrible pains in his stomach. He lost forty pounds, 823 00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:09,880 Speaker 1: and he was diagnosed as having pancreatitis and gallstones and 824 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:14,320 Speaker 1: needing an operation, which was scheduled for the first of 825 00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:19,160 Speaker 1: August two thousand nine. A week before the operation, they 826 00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:26,640 Speaker 1: came to him again again uh asked him again. He 827 00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:32,759 Speaker 1: refused to do the false confession, and in response, they 828 00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:37,000 Speaker 1: moved him to a maximum security prison called Boutyrka, which 829 00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:39,840 Speaker 1: is considered to be one of the most horrible prisons 830 00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:43,399 Speaker 1: in Russia, and most significantly for Sergey, there was no 831 00:51:43,640 --> 00:51:48,759 Speaker 1: medical facilities there. At Boucherka's health completely broke down. He 832 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:53,600 Speaker 1: went into constant, agonizing, ear piercing pain. He and his 833 00:51:53,680 --> 00:51:57,279 Speaker 1: lawyers wrote twenty different desperate requests for medical attention to 834 00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:01,200 Speaker 1: every different branch of the criminal justice system, and every 835 00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:03,880 Speaker 1: one of those letters was either ignored or denied in writing, 836 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,880 Speaker 1: and on the night of November six thousand nine, Sergey 837 00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:12,600 Speaker 1: Magnisky went into critical condition. On that night, the Butcherka 838 00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,960 Speaker 1: authorities didn't want to have responsibility for him anymore. They 839 00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:17,920 Speaker 1: put him in an ambulance sent him to a different 840 00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:21,680 Speaker 1: prison across town that had a medical wing. When he 841 00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:25,319 Speaker 1: arrived there, instead of putting him in the emergency room, 842 00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,520 Speaker 1: they put him in an isolation cell. They changed him 843 00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,720 Speaker 1: to a bed, and eight riot guards with rubber baton's 844 00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:35,400 Speaker 1: beat him until he died. He was thirty seven years old. 845 00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:40,040 Speaker 1: He left a wife and two children. Since that moment, 846 00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:42,479 Speaker 1: I've been on a mission to go after the people 847 00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:44,920 Speaker 1: who killed him. To make sure they faced justice. And 848 00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:46,879 Speaker 1: for the last twelve years, that's what I've been doing. 849 00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:51,080 Speaker 1: And it's that mission of getting justice for Surgey, which 850 00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:53,440 Speaker 1: is what's caused Putin to get so mad at me. Okay, 851 00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:56,080 Speaker 1: let's stay with Putin, Let's pull the lens back. Is 852 00:52:56,239 --> 00:53:00,320 Speaker 1: Putent the strong man anomaly? Or is he a harben 853 00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:02,040 Speaker 1: jur for what's going to happen in the rest of 854 00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:05,360 Speaker 1: the world. I don't think anyone could be as horrible 855 00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,880 Speaker 1: as Vladimir Putin's. He sits in a class by himself 856 00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:15,680 Speaker 1: of depravity, of evil, of of he's really as he's 857 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:20,719 Speaker 1: a psycho psycho killer. And you have a lot of 858 00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:23,439 Speaker 1: people that are authoritarians in different parts of the world, 859 00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:25,479 Speaker 1: a lot of people that ignore a rule of law, 860 00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:31,800 Speaker 1: but nobody is as sort of sadistic and unbelievably mass 861 00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:36,120 Speaker 1: murdering as Putin is right now. Um, And so I 862 00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,120 Speaker 1: would I would like to think that he's special and 863 00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:40,960 Speaker 1: that we don't have a lot of other Vladimir Putin's 864 00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:44,759 Speaker 1: percolating and and get gathering their strength to do what 865 00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:48,520 Speaker 1: he's doing. I think that he's he's unique. What do 866 00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:52,719 Speaker 1: you believe his motivation for the invasion of Ukraine was well. 867 00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:57,319 Speaker 1: A lot of learned political scientists and others have all 868 00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:01,520 Speaker 1: sorts of fancy h and analysis which which where they 869 00:54:01,520 --> 00:54:05,640 Speaker 1: suggest that he wants to recreate the Russian Empire or 870 00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:09,920 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union. UH. Some people say that Putin was 871 00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:14,120 Speaker 1: humiliated by the by the fact that we added other 872 00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:18,480 Speaker 1: countries to NATO. UM. There's some people that are saying 873 00:54:18,520 --> 00:54:23,680 Speaker 1: that he's mad because Ukraine want to join the European Union. 874 00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:26,440 Speaker 1: I actually don't believe any of those theories. I think 875 00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:31,320 Speaker 1: the main theory of why he's done what he's done 876 00:54:32,040 --> 00:54:36,719 Speaker 1: is that he's stolen a trillion dollars he and the 877 00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:40,160 Speaker 1: people around him in the last twenty two years. And 878 00:54:40,239 --> 00:54:45,680 Speaker 1: Russia's supposed to be a democracy, and at some point 879 00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:48,920 Speaker 1: people start getting angry that they have bad lives and 880 00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:51,440 Speaker 1: a few, very small number of people have really good lives, 881 00:54:51,440 --> 00:54:53,759 Speaker 1: and that's all taken from the from the other, from 882 00:54:53,800 --> 00:54:58,279 Speaker 1: the population, and so I believe that this is a 883 00:54:58,320 --> 00:55:02,400 Speaker 1: war of distraction. I think the war is purely to 884 00:55:02,520 --> 00:55:04,879 Speaker 1: be at war so he can get all the people 885 00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:10,440 Speaker 1: rebbed up into a flurry of of UH nationalism and 886 00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:15,600 Speaker 1: patriotic fervor, and by the way, you know, whatever disasters 887 00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,360 Speaker 1: are going on in Ukraine right now for the Russian military, 888 00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:21,680 Speaker 1: the one big success for Putin is that his approval 889 00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:25,920 Speaker 1: rating skyrocketed. To what degree do you believe those rating 890 00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:31,919 Speaker 1: skyrocketed because of a crackdown on contrary news. I think 891 00:55:32,000 --> 00:55:37,000 Speaker 1: that the crackdown on contrary news actually came after the skyrocketing, 892 00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:39,879 Speaker 1: not before. I think that Scott rocketed literally the day 893 00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:45,000 Speaker 1: he went in. And of course he's always delivering misinformation 894 00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:48,480 Speaker 1: and fake news and all this kind of stuff. But 895 00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:51,640 Speaker 1: but I believe that that this is kind of a 896 00:55:51,680 --> 00:55:55,040 Speaker 1: genuine feeling. Of course, you're right and your question that 897 00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,200 Speaker 1: you imply that if people knew the truth, they wouldn't 898 00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:01,439 Speaker 1: be so supportive, and I think that's true. But there's 899 00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:05,120 Speaker 1: something weird going on there where where people almost stopped 900 00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:09,520 Speaker 1: stop ignoring, start they start to ignore the facts, stop 901 00:56:09,560 --> 00:56:16,680 Speaker 1: paying attention to what's true, and they kind of just become, uh, 902 00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:19,840 Speaker 1: you know, sort of their guy is Putin and the 903 00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:23,360 Speaker 1: enemy is the other guy. It almost doesn't matter what 904 00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:25,920 Speaker 1: their guy did anymore. Okay, But on the other side, 905 00:56:26,080 --> 00:56:29,600 Speaker 1: you have Navalni, you have his YouTube videos. Is he 906 00:56:29,719 --> 00:56:34,240 Speaker 1: just appealing to a minority or a growing minority. Alexei 907 00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:38,160 Speaker 1: Navolney started out by appealing to just the young group 908 00:56:38,239 --> 00:56:44,480 Speaker 1: of YouTube users and instagrammers and and Twitter followers and 909 00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:48,320 Speaker 1: so on. But and he did so by by exposing 910 00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:52,480 Speaker 1: corruption of Putin and his cronies, which was very interesting 911 00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:56,600 Speaker 1: and very attractive. But it's it's one of these interesting 912 00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:00,120 Speaker 1: things that that Navalny has risen well beyond that. And 913 00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,040 Speaker 1: and the way he rose well beyond that was by 914 00:57:03,080 --> 00:57:07,640 Speaker 1: getting by by basically being victimized when Putin tried to 915 00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:13,480 Speaker 1: kill him with with Nova Chalk in Siberia. All of 916 00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,440 Speaker 1: a sudden, the whole world and all people in Russia 917 00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:20,120 Speaker 1: were paying attention and the fact that he survived, and 918 00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:24,480 Speaker 1: everyone loves an underdog, and so he survived the killing attempt. 919 00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:28,400 Speaker 1: He's an a coma for a month, he comes out 920 00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:33,480 Speaker 1: of a coma, he rehabilitates himself back to life, and 921 00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,320 Speaker 1: then he returns to Russia, even though they told him 922 00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:39,400 Speaker 1: he would be arrested if he returned to Russia, and 923 00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:43,880 Speaker 1: that elevated him to a presidential level. That the fact 924 00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:47,600 Speaker 1: that a guy would risk his life and his freedom 925 00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:51,320 Speaker 1: for his country put him on par with Putin. And 926 00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:54,200 Speaker 1: so there's a chance. I wouldn't put it too high 927 00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:57,160 Speaker 1: a chance, but there's a chance that if Putin missteps 928 00:57:57,200 --> 00:57:59,360 Speaker 1: badly enough and the whole thing goes up in flames 929 00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:03,600 Speaker 1: and everyone is looking for who should lead Russia next, 930 00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:08,680 Speaker 1: Alexie volney Is is the perfect person who has the profile, 931 00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:11,800 Speaker 1: who could do it. He's like the Russian version of 932 00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:15,600 Speaker 1: Nelson Mandela. Forget the war. If the war wasn't happening, 933 00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:20,680 Speaker 1: would Putin's government ultimately implode or would ultimately pass the 934 00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:24,080 Speaker 1: baton to someone else in the cleptocracy would continue? Well, 935 00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:27,680 Speaker 1: of course, the main objective of everybody who is part 936 00:58:27,720 --> 00:58:31,880 Speaker 1: of the cleptocracy the status quo, to keep it going. 937 00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:37,120 Speaker 1: And that's their game plan. If Putin were to die 938 00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:41,200 Speaker 1: of a stroke tonight, uh, they'd want to get the 939 00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:43,520 Speaker 1: head of the KGB or the head of the g 940 00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:46,520 Speaker 1: r U or some other sort of strong man to 941 00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:49,800 Speaker 1: step in and do the same thing. That's there perfect plan. 942 00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:53,160 Speaker 1: But the trouble with with a place like Russia, it's 943 00:58:53,160 --> 00:58:55,520 Speaker 1: a big country, there's a lot of people, a lot 944 00:58:55,520 --> 00:58:57,920 Speaker 1: of different things can happen. It's very difficult to control. 945 00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:03,040 Speaker 1: And that's one of the reasons that that Putin has 946 00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:07,360 Speaker 1: been so successful as he's figured out the levers of control. 947 00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:09,680 Speaker 1: When it is a successful I means successful and staying 948 00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:14,960 Speaker 1: in power, And so nobody really knows what's going to happen. 949 00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:18,280 Speaker 1: There's some chance that it could be a you know, 950 00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:22,959 Speaker 1: a widespread popular uprising and then navalny comes in. There's 951 00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:26,720 Speaker 1: some chance that it could be a palace coup um 952 00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:30,800 Speaker 1: and some new KGB guy comes in. Um. The most 953 00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:36,400 Speaker 1: likely thing I think is more of the same, as 954 00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:41,240 Speaker 1: that Vladimir Putin doesn't leave power and that he sticks 955 00:59:41,280 --> 00:59:43,480 Speaker 1: around for a very long time. Let's go back to 956 00:59:43,520 --> 00:59:47,680 Speaker 1: the war. How does the war end? If it ends, well, 957 00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:50,000 Speaker 1: there's three ways the work and end well, I mean, 958 00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:52,480 Speaker 1: I know there's two ways to work and end and 959 00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:58,520 Speaker 1: one much more probable outcome, so that they're either Ukraine 960 00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:02,600 Speaker 1: wins the war and that you know, if we had 961 01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:06,840 Speaker 1: talked about this eight weeks ago, nine weeks ago, um, 962 01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:09,440 Speaker 1: nobody everyone would have laughed at that idea. But I 963 01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:12,400 Speaker 1: think there's a not insignificant chance that Ukraine could win 964 01:00:12,480 --> 01:00:16,200 Speaker 1: this war. How do they win the war? Because they 965 01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:22,200 Speaker 1: have now very good equipment coming from the West, Stinger 966 01:00:22,560 --> 01:00:28,360 Speaker 1: Javelin missiles, they've got drones, Turkish drones. Um, they've got 967 01:00:29,560 --> 01:00:32,080 Speaker 1: surface to air missiles, they've got all sorts of interesting 968 01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:36,560 Speaker 1: stuff to help them win the war, and and they're 969 01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:38,880 Speaker 1: doing pretty well. They're killing a lot of Russian soldiers, 970 01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:41,280 Speaker 1: and they're driving Russia back from a lot of places 971 01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:46,480 Speaker 1: that Russia thought they had absolutely nailed down. If for 972 01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:51,480 Speaker 1: some reason, Ukraine succeeds and wins the war, that's the 973 01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:56,880 Speaker 1: one scenario where I think Putin wouldn't last. The Russians, 974 01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:00,040 Speaker 1: I don't think, have a great deal of sympathy for 975 01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:03,720 Speaker 1: human rights victims and in all the terrible things that 976 01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:09,080 Speaker 1: we respond to so so emotionally. But the Russians really 977 01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:11,920 Speaker 1: don't like a loser. They don't like a weak loser. 978 01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:16,040 Speaker 1: And if Putin were to lose this war, one that 979 01:01:16,080 --> 01:01:18,720 Speaker 1: he should absolutely should have won in his mind and 980 01:01:18,760 --> 01:01:21,120 Speaker 1: the mind of the Russian people, they would get rid 981 01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:24,040 Speaker 1: of him. The problem is that even though this this 982 01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:30,000 Speaker 1: scenario um as a chance, it's not a huge chance. 983 01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:35,400 Speaker 1: It's like the other way this war could end is 984 01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:41,200 Speaker 1: something really horrible and unthinkable, which is that Putin wins 985 01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:46,960 Speaker 1: in Ukraine and then he moves on to Moldova or 986 01:01:48,080 --> 01:01:53,520 Speaker 1: more likely Estonia, lat Via, Poland, and he goes to 987 01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:57,320 Speaker 1: these countries and he points his guns at the countries, 988 01:01:57,360 --> 01:01:59,520 Speaker 1: and he points a couple of nukes at Washington and 989 01:02:00,120 --> 01:02:06,680 Speaker 1: Lynn in London and he says, Okay, do you really 990 01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:11,520 Speaker 1: want to have a war with me? And and then 991 01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:15,080 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, the pundits on MSNBC and Fox 992 01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:18,080 Speaker 1: News are all saying, wait a second, why would we 993 01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:21,120 Speaker 1: risk losing twenty million people for the sake of a 994 01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:25,920 Speaker 1: country that most people can't locate on a map. And 995 01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:31,000 Speaker 1: and even worse, um uh, why why do we even 996 01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:35,560 Speaker 1: care about this whole NATO thing? And if Putin were 997 01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:39,919 Speaker 1: to achieve that feeling, then he ends up getting some 998 01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:44,040 Speaker 1: huge peace treaty with a whole bunch of countries that 999 01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:46,800 Speaker 1: never were part of the you know that that have 1000 01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:49,080 Speaker 1: been free for the last thirty years, and all of 1001 01:02:49,080 --> 01:02:52,280 Speaker 1: a sudden they come under Russia's orbit. That's the that's 1002 01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:56,120 Speaker 1: his sort of good case scenario. I put a fift 1003 01:02:56,600 --> 01:03:00,920 Speaker 1: chance on that one. So that's that's rough to so far, 1004 01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:05,240 Speaker 1: the most likely thing. The scenario. It's just more of 1005 01:03:05,280 --> 01:03:07,960 Speaker 1: the same. You know, the Russians don't back down, and 1006 01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:10,200 Speaker 1: the Ukrainians don't back down, and they just keep at it. 1007 01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:14,160 Speaker 1: But theoretically, could Putin say oh I took part of 1008 01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:18,640 Speaker 1: Ukraine and declare victory and in the war. Theoretically yes, 1009 01:03:19,080 --> 01:03:24,360 Speaker 1: but probably no, because the remember Putin is at war 1010 01:03:24,880 --> 01:03:27,960 Speaker 1: because he wants his approval ratings to be high. If 1011 01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:31,840 Speaker 1: he does peace, his approval ratings go back down. I 1012 01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:33,600 Speaker 1: think that the whole purpose of this war is for 1013 01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:36,320 Speaker 1: him to stay in power. So in terms of the 1014 01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:41,080 Speaker 1: death rate the economic cost, you believe that the public 1015 01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:45,400 Speaker 1: is so behind Putin that those are ultimately irrelevant. I 1016 01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:48,480 Speaker 1: think I think that's that's the case. What do Tucker 1017 01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:53,640 Speaker 1: Carlson and the other people on the right not understand 1018 01:03:53,760 --> 01:03:56,840 Speaker 1: that they're either supportive of Putin or they say it's 1019 01:03:56,880 --> 01:03:59,560 Speaker 1: not our battle to fight. Well, I have no idea 1020 01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:03,800 Speaker 1: what's in the head of Tucker Carlson. Um. I think 1021 01:04:03,880 --> 01:04:07,520 Speaker 1: that sometimes people say stuff, outrageous stuff, just so they 1022 01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:12,360 Speaker 1: get noticed. And I have no idea why Tucker Carlson 1023 01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:16,560 Speaker 1: would say these things. And um uh, you know, it's 1024 01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:19,040 Speaker 1: it's very offensive to hear him saying it. But but 1025 01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:25,760 Speaker 1: there's absolutely no basis for any anybody in America who 1026 01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:32,280 Speaker 1: knows the facts to support Vladimir Putin. So needless to say, misinformation, disinformation. 1027 01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:36,360 Speaker 1: It's hard to get the truth and people facts are fungible. 1028 01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:39,640 Speaker 1: Could this happen in America? Could we have a strong 1029 01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:43,040 Speaker 1: man in America? How closer far we away from this? 1030 01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:45,120 Speaker 1: We had a strong man from two thousands sixteen to 1031 01:04:45,120 --> 01:04:47,760 Speaker 1: two thousand twenty in the form of Donald Trump, and 1032 01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:49,400 Speaker 1: he tried to do a whole bunch of stuff. But 1033 01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:53,720 Speaker 1: in America, the institutions held. And that's the difference between 1034 01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:56,240 Speaker 1: American and Russia's. We have institutions, we have courts that 1035 01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:58,720 Speaker 1: still function, we have a free press, we have a 1036 01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:03,120 Speaker 1: democratic process. And when when that stuff was challenged, it 1037 01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:08,120 Speaker 1: didn't it didn't break. However, in the ensuing four years 1038 01:05:08,360 --> 01:05:12,560 Speaker 1: and the loss of Donald Trump at the Supreme court level, 1039 01:05:12,600 --> 01:05:17,280 Speaker 1: the judge level, the right side agitation, it's unclear whether 1040 01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:20,680 Speaker 1: those institutions would hold in the future. That's true. But 1041 01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:23,760 Speaker 1: at the same time, there wasn't a single journalist arrested 1042 01:05:23,840 --> 01:05:29,480 Speaker 1: for challenging Trump. Nobody, no political opponents were killed, Um, 1043 01:05:29,520 --> 01:05:34,080 Speaker 1: nobody was poisoned. Uh. You know, and you know, there's 1044 01:05:34,080 --> 01:05:37,280 Speaker 1: a long way to go before we have a world 1045 01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:39,560 Speaker 1: like the one that I know in Russia. Is there 1046 01:05:39,600 --> 01:05:43,800 Speaker 1: a tipping point? Where are people boiled in hot water 1047 01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:46,880 Speaker 1: like a lobster or frog? I don't know the answer 1048 01:05:46,880 --> 01:05:48,760 Speaker 1: to that question. I don't think anyone knows the answer 1049 01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:52,640 Speaker 1: to that question. UM. I think that it's uh. We've 1050 01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:56,000 Speaker 1: seen the frog scenario play. It's out out in Russia. 1051 01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:58,240 Speaker 1: I mean it didn't start this way. It got worse 1052 01:05:58,280 --> 01:06:00,640 Speaker 1: and worse and worse. The same thing in Hong Kong. 1053 01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:05,240 Speaker 1: You know, the Chinese slowly turned up the temperature. And 1054 01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:07,480 Speaker 1: so hard to say what's going to happen in America? 1055 01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:11,840 Speaker 1: Now you live in London, which was certainly the European 1056 01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:19,200 Speaker 1: financial at center, and Brexit happened. Many people believe online misinformation, 1057 01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:23,640 Speaker 1: disinformation from Russia swung that election. Do you believe that 1058 01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:27,360 Speaker 1: hogwash too or possible? Well? So what I what I 1059 01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:32,800 Speaker 1: know for a fact is that Vladimir Putin, UM, he 1060 01:06:32,840 --> 01:06:36,120 Speaker 1: didn't want this. Um. He doesn't like the European Union. 1061 01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:39,000 Speaker 1: He doesn't like the European Union because he likes to 1062 01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:42,760 Speaker 1: pick off one country versus another. And so when he 1063 01:06:42,800 --> 01:06:48,400 Speaker 1: saw the British arguing UH to get rid of the 1064 01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:50,960 Speaker 1: European to get out of the European Union, he loved 1065 01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:56,120 Speaker 1: that and he loved that, and surely he participated using 1066 01:06:56,640 --> 01:06:59,480 Speaker 1: trolls and bots and all that kind of stuff to 1067 01:06:59,560 --> 01:07:03,280 Speaker 1: make this thing happened. Did was that enough to tip 1068 01:07:03,360 --> 01:07:08,120 Speaker 1: the balance or was it just on the margin. I 1069 01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:11,040 Speaker 1: don't know the answer. A number of people have called 1070 01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:15,720 Speaker 1: for a Mueller type of investigation here, not that Mueller 1071 01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:19,520 Speaker 1: actually succeeded in doing anything in America. Um, but that 1072 01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:23,040 Speaker 1: never happened. And so to this day we have no 1073 01:07:23,040 --> 01:07:28,880 Speaker 1: no definitive facts about whether, ah, whether it was the 1074 01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:35,520 Speaker 1: Russians maturely affected the outcome of this, of this referendum. 1075 01:07:35,640 --> 01:07:37,919 Speaker 1: And what I can say, and I know this very 1076 01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:39,920 Speaker 1: clearly living here, is that there are some people that 1077 01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:42,040 Speaker 1: are very passionate about wanting to leave that had nothing 1078 01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:45,560 Speaker 1: to do with Russia. They just didn't like the European Union. Okay, 1079 01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:47,720 Speaker 1: this is you know, there are all sorts of issue 1080 01:07:48,240 --> 01:07:53,080 Speaker 1: just today with Northern Ireland and visas also related to 1081 01:07:53,120 --> 01:07:58,000 Speaker 1: the Ukraine crisis. Does the UK ultimately find its feet 1082 01:07:58,000 --> 01:07:59,960 Speaker 1: and clear sailing or is this the beginning of the 1083 01:08:00,080 --> 01:08:03,720 Speaker 1: large decline? Well, I'm I don't write off any of 1084 01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:07,920 Speaker 1: our great democracies. Um. I mean, there's all sorts of 1085 01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:11,360 Speaker 1: problems in in the UK, there's problems in the United States, 1086 01:08:12,080 --> 01:08:16,160 Speaker 1: problems in France, problems in all sorts of places. But um, 1087 01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:19,720 Speaker 1: I'm so far away from writing off the idea that 1088 01:08:19,840 --> 01:08:22,639 Speaker 1: we have. Um, you know that that are that are 1089 01:08:23,120 --> 01:08:25,840 Speaker 1: systems are all gonna break down and implode. I think 1090 01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:29,520 Speaker 1: that there's there's ugliness, but at the same time, UM, 1091 01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:31,800 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff that still works pretty well. Now, 1092 01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:37,240 Speaker 1: there are many commentators say that economically, despite the posing 1093 01:08:37,600 --> 01:08:42,480 Speaker 1: of Putin, it is a very small country that ultimately 1094 01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:45,760 Speaker 1: has problems paying bills. Now we have the sanctions. Will 1095 01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:51,400 Speaker 1: these economic pressures affect Russia and possibly lead to the 1096 01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:54,320 Speaker 1: downfall of Putin? Or is the fact that he has 1097 01:08:54,360 --> 01:08:58,240 Speaker 1: such a grip on the government it could never happen. Well, 1098 01:08:58,280 --> 01:09:00,559 Speaker 1: it becomes a much more brittle situation. And the way 1099 01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:04,280 Speaker 1: he's managed in so I believe that that you know, 1100 01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:08,760 Speaker 1: he's a specialist in avoiding coups, he's a specialist in 1101 01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:15,960 Speaker 1: in repressing his society and more likely than not his 1102 01:09:16,040 --> 01:09:20,479 Speaker 1: skills that staying in power will succeed. Having said that, 1103 01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:25,800 Speaker 1: the situation that he's created with this invasion, with the sanctions, 1104 01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:29,559 Speaker 1: with the economic collapse, it's like being in a in 1105 01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:32,840 Speaker 1: a forest after a really hot summer, and there's all 1106 01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:38,240 Speaker 1: sorts of dry leaves on the ground, and at any point, 1107 01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:41,080 Speaker 1: you know, if if a match hits the right place, 1108 01:09:41,200 --> 01:09:43,120 Speaker 1: the whole forest could go up in flames. And I 1109 01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:47,000 Speaker 1: think that that's the situation he's facing right now, and 1110 01:09:47,080 --> 01:09:50,360 Speaker 1: he's hoping that doesn't happen and taking all sorts of 1111 01:09:50,400 --> 01:09:52,640 Speaker 1: precautions trying to prevent it from happening. But at the 1112 01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:56,400 Speaker 1: end of the day, it's hard to predict. And he's created, 1113 01:09:56,840 --> 01:09:59,360 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of a lot of fuel to 1114 01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:03,920 Speaker 1: burn um with all this unhappiness and hardship that he's 1115 01:10:04,080 --> 01:10:07,240 Speaker 1: that's coming from all that his his terrible behavior. They 1116 01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:09,800 Speaker 1: just mentioned the economy and the rest of the world. 1117 01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:12,439 Speaker 1: We think we know what's going on. The Thirteen Times 1118 01:10:12,439 --> 01:10:15,240 Speaker 1: owns that this and that. What does the rest of 1119 01:10:15,280 --> 01:10:20,080 Speaker 1: the world not understand about Russia and putin Well, the 1120 01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:22,280 Speaker 1: main thing that people don't understand is that he is 1121 01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:26,439 Speaker 1: a criminal. This is not the actions of a of 1122 01:10:26,520 --> 01:10:30,000 Speaker 1: a leader of a sovereign state. Too many people treat 1123 01:10:30,120 --> 01:10:34,080 Speaker 1: him like he's got some kind of national interests, that 1124 01:10:34,160 --> 01:10:38,880 Speaker 1: he's he that he somehow is doing this for some 1125 01:10:39,040 --> 01:10:42,799 Speaker 1: pride or legacy. He has no interest in pride or legacy. 1126 01:10:42,880 --> 01:10:46,360 Speaker 1: All he is trying to do is keep his money, 1127 01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:49,400 Speaker 1: stay out of jail, and stay alive. And the best 1128 01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:54,080 Speaker 1: way to do that is by distracting people. And the 1129 01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:57,360 Speaker 1: best way of distracting people is by being in war. 1130 01:10:57,720 --> 01:10:59,559 Speaker 1: Not just starting a war, but being in a war. 1131 01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:03,439 Speaker 1: You've listening to Bill Browder, author of Red Notice and 1132 01:11:03,520 --> 01:11:07,240 Speaker 1: Freezing Order. I highly recommend those books. They're riveting in 1133 01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:10,599 Speaker 1: their own right, never mind being so timely in light 1134 01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:13,240 Speaker 1: of what's going on in Russia and Ukraine. Girl, I 1135 01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:15,360 Speaker 1: want to thank you for taking the time speak to 1136 01:11:15,360 --> 01:11:18,439 Speaker 1: my audience today. Thank you until next time. This is 1137 01:11:18,479 --> 01:11:19,480 Speaker 1: Bob Leftstads