1 00:00:15,564 --> 00:00:16,044 Speaker 1: Pushkin. 2 00:00:26,804 --> 00:00:30,484 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making better decisions. 3 00:00:30,724 --> 00:00:32,324 Speaker 2: I'm Maria Kanakova. 4 00:00:31,964 --> 00:00:32,844 Speaker 3: And I'm made Silver. 5 00:00:33,404 --> 00:00:33,964 Speaker 1: Today on the. 6 00:00:33,884 --> 00:00:35,924 Speaker 2: Show, we're going to be talking about a series of 7 00:00:35,924 --> 00:00:41,084 Speaker 2: protests that took place across the country this weekend, the 8 00:00:41,244 --> 00:00:45,124 Speaker 2: no Kings protests. So we'll be talking about kind of 9 00:00:45,124 --> 00:00:47,884 Speaker 2: what that means, the game, theory of it, the broader implications, 10 00:00:47,884 --> 00:00:50,884 Speaker 2: whether we think this is a good strategy, all sorts 11 00:00:50,884 --> 00:00:56,204 Speaker 2: of Risky Business. E takes on the protests, including why 12 00:00:56,244 --> 00:00:59,724 Speaker 2: I'm scared of crowds. But before we get into all 13 00:00:59,764 --> 00:01:03,044 Speaker 2: of that night, there was some news over the weekend 14 00:01:03,084 --> 00:01:08,324 Speaker 2: that the louver was robbed and within seven minutes a 15 00:01:08,404 --> 00:01:10,724 Speaker 2: team of robbers was able to get into the second 16 00:01:10,724 --> 00:01:15,564 Speaker 2: floor window and steal some priceless jewelry. They got in, 17 00:01:15,564 --> 00:01:17,284 Speaker 2: they got out. By the way, this was nine thirty 18 00:01:17,284 --> 00:01:20,004 Speaker 2: in the morning, right, Like, this wasn't late at night, 19 00:01:20,404 --> 00:01:24,124 Speaker 2: just completely brazen daytime robbery. 20 00:01:24,164 --> 00:01:26,484 Speaker 3: Why would you accepting it then? 21 00:01:26,564 --> 00:01:26,684 Speaker 4: Right? 22 00:01:27,004 --> 00:01:27,764 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's nice. 23 00:01:28,244 --> 00:01:30,724 Speaker 4: I mean the French that with the French, I mean 24 00:01:30,724 --> 00:01:33,804 Speaker 4: they're barely even woke up. They're having their third cup 25 00:01:33,844 --> 00:01:36,124 Speaker 4: of coffee and their fifth cigarette, right, so they're just 26 00:01:36,164 --> 00:01:36,804 Speaker 4: getting started. 27 00:01:37,204 --> 00:01:39,404 Speaker 2: I mean yeah, I think nine thirty am they are 28 00:01:39,444 --> 00:01:42,804 Speaker 2: still getting started. And yeah, the robbers they took a 29 00:01:42,884 --> 00:01:45,884 Speaker 2: truck mounted ladder and then they gained access to the 30 00:01:45,924 --> 00:01:49,124 Speaker 2: second floor, which was the Apollo Gallery, and so they 31 00:01:49,124 --> 00:01:51,324 Speaker 2: were able to get some of the French Crown jewels 32 00:01:51,404 --> 00:01:55,884 Speaker 2: that dated back to Napoleon, and eight of nine items 33 00:01:56,084 --> 00:02:00,844 Speaker 2: remain unaccounted for. They dropped one. 34 00:02:00,404 --> 00:02:03,684 Speaker 1: Which was really weird. They dropped a crowd. I was like, wait, 35 00:02:03,764 --> 00:02:05,004 Speaker 1: you know, how do you get a break? 36 00:02:05,284 --> 00:02:06,604 Speaker 2: I don't think so. I was like, how do you 37 00:02:06,724 --> 00:02:10,004 Speaker 2: drop it? Like was your tote back wrong? Like what 38 00:02:10,044 --> 00:02:10,884 Speaker 2: did something rip? 39 00:02:11,004 --> 00:02:11,084 Speaker 4: Like? 40 00:02:11,124 --> 00:02:12,844 Speaker 1: Were you using plastic bags? 41 00:02:12,884 --> 00:02:12,964 Speaker 4: Like? 42 00:02:13,004 --> 00:02:14,324 Speaker 1: What's going on here? 43 00:02:14,444 --> 00:02:16,084 Speaker 3: Are they going to sell you them? eBay? Where are 44 00:02:16,084 --> 00:02:16,844 Speaker 3: they going to sell them? 45 00:02:18,484 --> 00:02:19,324 Speaker 1: I have no idea. 46 00:02:19,484 --> 00:02:22,684 Speaker 2: Oh apparently actually they dropped two items and not not 47 00:02:22,804 --> 00:02:25,884 Speaker 2: actually one item, So yeah, I have no idea. What 48 00:02:25,924 --> 00:02:28,364 Speaker 2: do you do with crown jewels? I mean I guess 49 00:02:28,364 --> 00:02:31,884 Speaker 2: one of the things you can do is take the 50 00:02:31,964 --> 00:02:35,564 Speaker 2: jewels off, right, like somehow like break it apart and 51 00:02:35,604 --> 00:02:39,324 Speaker 2: from priceless relic make it into just black market jewelry. 52 00:02:39,484 --> 00:02:42,284 Speaker 4: It seems like not very economical, right, Like I don't 53 00:02:42,324 --> 00:02:44,524 Speaker 4: have people seal duels that are not crown jewels, and 54 00:02:44,684 --> 00:02:48,524 Speaker 4: like like who would buy would like, uh, maybe Trump 55 00:02:48,524 --> 00:02:49,044 Speaker 4: would buy it? 56 00:02:49,164 --> 00:02:51,524 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know, but yeah, the Crown of m 57 00:02:51,564 --> 00:02:55,244 Speaker 2: PROSEUSIONI is the is the item that was identified the 58 00:02:55,244 --> 00:02:57,724 Speaker 2: other one we don't know. By the way, that piece 59 00:02:57,804 --> 00:03:02,884 Speaker 2: has three and fifty four diamonds and fifty six emeralds. 60 00:03:04,164 --> 00:03:07,044 Speaker 2: That's insane. It was slightly damaged. It was slightly damaged, 61 00:03:07,084 --> 00:03:11,244 Speaker 2: but it didn't completely break Okay. Also, like what the 62 00:03:11,284 --> 00:03:14,724 Speaker 2: hell love like their security, Like I think this is 63 00:03:14,764 --> 00:03:17,844 Speaker 2: the museum with the most number of robberies like that 64 00:03:18,364 --> 00:03:20,684 Speaker 2: in the twentieth and twenty first century that I know 65 00:03:20,764 --> 00:03:23,684 Speaker 2: of the Mona Lisa was stolen, right, Like that should 66 00:03:23,684 --> 00:03:26,524 Speaker 2: be the one thing that like you're really really guarding 67 00:03:26,724 --> 00:03:30,004 Speaker 2: really well, and they've had other break ins throughout history 68 00:03:30,044 --> 00:03:33,204 Speaker 2: of Like, come on, French people, French security. 69 00:03:32,764 --> 00:03:35,084 Speaker 1: Like, get your shit together. What's going on? 70 00:03:35,164 --> 00:03:36,844 Speaker 3: If they just do things in their own way. I 71 00:03:36,884 --> 00:03:39,404 Speaker 3: admire the French, I admire the friend. 72 00:03:39,404 --> 00:03:42,764 Speaker 2: I listen, I admire the French. I admire the robbers here. 73 00:03:43,004 --> 00:03:47,084 Speaker 2: And I'm so sorry tourists who you know, we're leaving 74 00:03:47,564 --> 00:03:49,924 Speaker 2: your tour of the Mona Lisa to the last day. 75 00:03:50,284 --> 00:03:52,204 Speaker 2: You know, you were planning to go on a Sunday. 76 00:03:52,444 --> 00:03:53,284 Speaker 1: You were really. 77 00:03:53,044 --> 00:03:55,724 Speaker 2: Excited, and then the museum ended up being closed because 78 00:03:56,044 --> 00:03:59,404 Speaker 2: you know, some royal jewels were stolen. But this is, 79 00:03:59,564 --> 00:04:02,684 Speaker 2: you know, talk about risky business. That's I think that 80 00:04:02,804 --> 00:04:05,404 Speaker 2: your question, Nate, like I laughed at it, but like, 81 00:04:05,444 --> 00:04:06,284 Speaker 2: what in the world are you. 82 00:04:06,204 --> 00:04:07,404 Speaker 1: Going to do with it? 83 00:04:07,444 --> 00:04:10,684 Speaker 2: Is a really pertinent question because this is a huge risk, right, 84 00:04:10,764 --> 00:04:13,284 Speaker 2: like you are actually like if you're getting if you 85 00:04:13,284 --> 00:04:16,924 Speaker 2: get caught, like that's seems like those consequences are going 86 00:04:16,964 --> 00:04:19,164 Speaker 2: to be pretty dire. So you probably need to have 87 00:04:19,204 --> 00:04:21,084 Speaker 2: a really good plan in place for what you're going 88 00:04:21,164 --> 00:04:23,164 Speaker 2: to do and how you're going to profit from this heist. 89 00:04:23,364 --> 00:04:24,084 Speaker 1: And a lot of. 90 00:04:24,044 --> 00:04:27,364 Speaker 2: People don't think that far ahead and don't realize that 91 00:04:27,444 --> 00:04:30,044 Speaker 2: a lot of stolen artifacts are really hard to move, 92 00:04:30,564 --> 00:04:33,084 Speaker 2: right so unless maybe they have a buyer already, like 93 00:04:33,124 --> 00:04:37,484 Speaker 2: maybe there's like somewhere an Elon Musk type figure. And 94 00:04:37,564 --> 00:04:39,844 Speaker 2: I mean that in terms of like the amount of 95 00:04:39,844 --> 00:04:42,844 Speaker 2: money that you have who is willing to pay you know, 96 00:04:42,924 --> 00:04:45,684 Speaker 2: millions and millions of dollars for these specific crown jewels. 97 00:04:45,964 --> 00:04:49,604 Speaker 4: If you if you buy stolen property. Isn't that like 98 00:04:49,684 --> 00:04:51,604 Speaker 4: some felony or misscenario at least? 99 00:04:51,644 --> 00:04:53,444 Speaker 2: Well, I don't know the rules in France, but yes, 100 00:04:53,484 --> 00:04:57,164 Speaker 2: absolutely and will we'll uh, there will definitely be Interpol 101 00:04:57,244 --> 00:05:00,684 Speaker 2: on the case. And yes, there's definitely there are safeguards 102 00:05:00,684 --> 00:05:02,764 Speaker 2: in place against buying them, but I'm assuming that the 103 00:05:02,804 --> 00:05:05,364 Speaker 2: person who would purchase them would also do it completely 104 00:05:05,884 --> 00:05:09,084 Speaker 2: you know, off the grid like some there are the blockchain, 105 00:05:09,884 --> 00:05:14,004 Speaker 2: the blotching. Yes, all right, this this episode brought to you, 106 00:05:14,124 --> 00:05:20,124 Speaker 2: this heist brought to you by bit Quiet Watching. But yeah, 107 00:05:20,164 --> 00:05:25,364 Speaker 2: it's a it is a hilarious I mean not hilarious, 108 00:05:25,364 --> 00:05:28,284 Speaker 2: but it is a funny bit of news. And maybe Nate, 109 00:05:28,324 --> 00:05:30,724 Speaker 2: So we're recording this on Monday, October twentieth. Maybe by 110 00:05:30,724 --> 00:05:32,844 Speaker 2: the time it airs on Wednesday, the thiefs will have 111 00:05:32,884 --> 00:05:35,764 Speaker 2: been caught and that will be like a huge win 112 00:05:35,924 --> 00:05:39,884 Speaker 2: for French police. But it took a long time for 113 00:05:40,364 --> 00:05:42,684 Speaker 2: the Mona Lisa to be recovered when it was stolen, 114 00:05:43,284 --> 00:05:47,044 Speaker 2: and I'm from Boston, I obviously remember like the Isabella 115 00:05:47,044 --> 00:05:51,164 Speaker 2: Stuart Gardner Museum heist, which was huge those none of 116 00:05:51,164 --> 00:05:54,164 Speaker 2: those works of art have been recovered, so it can 117 00:05:54,204 --> 00:05:57,484 Speaker 2: take a really long time from moment of theft to 118 00:05:57,644 --> 00:06:00,604 Speaker 2: actually recovering, and that moment of time could be never. 119 00:06:01,404 --> 00:06:04,164 Speaker 2: So let's see what happens this time day. If you 120 00:06:04,204 --> 00:06:07,644 Speaker 2: were going to rob a museum, purely hypothetically, what would 121 00:06:07,684 --> 00:06:10,004 Speaker 2: you steal? Like, is there an item in a museum 122 00:06:10,004 --> 00:06:11,884 Speaker 2: somewhere that you're like, man, I really just want this 123 00:06:11,964 --> 00:06:12,364 Speaker 2: at home. 124 00:06:13,324 --> 00:06:14,364 Speaker 3: No, because I would get caught. 125 00:06:14,684 --> 00:06:15,284 Speaker 1: I'll get caught. 126 00:06:15,444 --> 00:06:18,484 Speaker 4: I would go to like the little cafe when they 127 00:06:18,524 --> 00:06:20,844 Speaker 4: have the jaded barista and take like, you know whatever 128 00:06:20,924 --> 00:06:23,364 Speaker 4: five hundred bucks said. Yeah, I wouldn't like, I wouldn't 129 00:06:23,364 --> 00:06:28,724 Speaker 4: want to deprive uh people of the opportunity to see art. 130 00:06:28,724 --> 00:06:30,724 Speaker 3: I've always found it like a little. 131 00:06:30,524 --> 00:06:32,684 Speaker 4: Bit strange to have like a really valuable piece of 132 00:06:32,724 --> 00:06:35,484 Speaker 4: art in your private collection and we collect art like 133 00:06:35,844 --> 00:06:37,564 Speaker 4: but nothing super Yeah, I. 134 00:06:37,444 --> 00:06:38,844 Speaker 1: Totally I totally agree with that. 135 00:06:38,964 --> 00:06:41,604 Speaker 2: And I hate, you know, I hate when there are 136 00:06:41,604 --> 00:06:44,404 Speaker 2: people who buy some like truly beautiful painting and then 137 00:06:44,604 --> 00:06:46,964 Speaker 2: refuse to load it out, and like, I understand their 138 00:06:47,004 --> 00:06:49,924 Speaker 2: insurance considerations, et cetera, et cetera, but come on, Like, 139 00:06:50,084 --> 00:06:53,324 Speaker 2: if the Goggenheims could lend out their entire collection, like 140 00:06:54,004 --> 00:06:56,884 Speaker 2: you can. You can make it work. And you know, 141 00:06:56,924 --> 00:06:59,804 Speaker 2: I totally get wanting to live with a beautiful piece 142 00:06:59,844 --> 00:07:03,324 Speaker 2: of art in your home, but you also like, you 143 00:07:03,364 --> 00:07:05,444 Speaker 2: can't protect it and take care of it the same 144 00:07:05,484 --> 00:07:09,644 Speaker 2: way a museum can. And I think there's a there's 145 00:07:09,644 --> 00:07:11,924 Speaker 2: definitely a case to be made that sure, you can 146 00:07:11,964 --> 00:07:13,964 Speaker 2: have it, but like lend it out, let people see it. 147 00:07:14,644 --> 00:07:16,884 Speaker 2: Share the beauty, right, share the beauty with the world. 148 00:07:17,084 --> 00:07:20,724 Speaker 2: And by the way, talking about risk, during the Palisade 149 00:07:20,764 --> 00:07:25,204 Speaker 2: fires earlier this year, some absolutely irreplaceable works of art 150 00:07:25,244 --> 00:07:28,804 Speaker 2: were destroyed, right Because you could be a billionaire with 151 00:07:28,924 --> 00:07:35,684 Speaker 2: a gorgeous Pacific Highway house in Malibu or wherever, and 152 00:07:36,804 --> 00:07:37,484 Speaker 2: your house. 153 00:07:37,284 --> 00:07:41,204 Speaker 1: Goes up in flames and that's it unless you're the. 154 00:07:43,164 --> 00:07:43,444 Speaker 4: Getty. 155 00:07:43,484 --> 00:07:47,164 Speaker 2: The Getty was fine. The Getty has an incredibly sophisticated 156 00:07:47,964 --> 00:07:50,884 Speaker 2: anti fire protection system, but most normal houses do not. 157 00:07:51,324 --> 00:07:56,684 Speaker 2: So some works of art were really uh gone forever now. 158 00:07:56,964 --> 00:07:59,484 Speaker 2: And that's a risk that you take when you have 159 00:07:59,604 --> 00:08:00,964 Speaker 2: something like that in your home. 160 00:08:01,804 --> 00:08:02,444 Speaker 1: Or in the louver. 161 00:08:02,524 --> 00:08:04,004 Speaker 2: I guess the risk you take is that it's going 162 00:08:04,084 --> 00:08:12,164 Speaker 2: to get stolen at some point. So yeah, no, I 163 00:08:12,604 --> 00:08:14,724 Speaker 2: actually I agree with that. I don't think I wouldn't 164 00:08:14,724 --> 00:08:18,484 Speaker 2: steal anything either, because I really do think that these 165 00:08:19,164 --> 00:08:21,324 Speaker 2: art is to be shared right as art is something 166 00:08:21,364 --> 00:08:25,404 Speaker 2: that makes us all uniquely human and it's such a 167 00:08:25,444 --> 00:08:27,444 Speaker 2: beautiful thing for all of us to share in common. 168 00:08:28,044 --> 00:08:30,484 Speaker 3: And I'm going to do some high risk crimes. I 169 00:08:30,524 --> 00:08:34,244 Speaker 3: can think of a lot more fun positively the high 170 00:08:34,284 --> 00:08:34,884 Speaker 3: risk crimes. 171 00:08:34,884 --> 00:08:40,484 Speaker 2: Maria, I totally, yeah, absolutely like what Nate, hypothetically speaking, 172 00:08:41,204 --> 00:08:46,324 Speaker 2: we'll take this, we'll take this off the podcast well 173 00:08:46,724 --> 00:08:50,004 Speaker 2: more more for our pushkin plus subscribers. 174 00:08:50,124 --> 00:08:51,804 Speaker 3: What would want crime? 175 00:08:53,764 --> 00:08:57,364 Speaker 2: Yeah, so our would be criminal spree, Nate is short 176 00:08:57,404 --> 00:08:59,884 Speaker 2: lived because we've decided that we're not going to steal 177 00:08:59,924 --> 00:09:03,724 Speaker 2: anything from the art museum, but we will retain the 178 00:09:03,764 --> 00:09:08,044 Speaker 2: optionality of doing something that's going to be lower risk 179 00:09:08,204 --> 00:09:13,764 Speaker 2: and higher reward. On that note, let's talk about the 180 00:09:13,804 --> 00:09:18,364 Speaker 2: No King's protests that happened over the weekend. Nate, did 181 00:09:18,404 --> 00:09:19,284 Speaker 2: you participate? 182 00:09:20,284 --> 00:09:23,004 Speaker 3: No, A, It's not my vibe. 183 00:09:23,084 --> 00:09:27,924 Speaker 4: Although I'm sympathetic to change the protesters and b I 184 00:09:28,044 --> 00:09:30,884 Speaker 4: in certain ways, I do take myself seriously as a journalist, 185 00:09:30,884 --> 00:09:32,604 Speaker 4: and I think if I went, it would be appropriate 186 00:09:32,604 --> 00:09:35,444 Speaker 4: to cover them more arms length and not to participate 187 00:09:35,644 --> 00:09:37,404 Speaker 4: but you know, we can talk about that or not. 188 00:09:37,564 --> 00:09:38,164 Speaker 3: Did you, Maria. 189 00:09:38,324 --> 00:09:43,564 Speaker 2: I did not for various reasons, but the biggest one 190 00:09:43,604 --> 00:09:46,284 Speaker 2: of which is I can't deal with crowds, like I 191 00:09:46,364 --> 00:09:48,964 Speaker 2: hate events where there no, I really can't, Like I 192 00:09:49,004 --> 00:09:51,524 Speaker 2: get really clustrophobic and really anxious. 193 00:09:51,604 --> 00:09:53,164 Speaker 1: And I know, I look, you are both. 194 00:09:53,244 --> 00:09:55,564 Speaker 4: We both live I know, in New York City and 195 00:09:55,644 --> 00:09:58,404 Speaker 4: Las Vegas, which I maybe I mean not in the world, 196 00:09:58,604 --> 00:09:59,164 Speaker 4: but there's. 197 00:09:59,004 --> 00:10:01,924 Speaker 2: A very different so there's so there's a very different 198 00:10:01,964 --> 00:10:05,244 Speaker 2: mentality when you're in a huge crowd of people protesting 199 00:10:05,364 --> 00:10:09,044 Speaker 2: versus like, you know, on a commute. And just to 200 00:10:09,604 --> 00:10:13,164 Speaker 2: just to give you an example, so this Saturday, which 201 00:10:13,204 --> 00:10:18,644 Speaker 2: is when the protests were happening, I went to Grand Central, 202 00:10:18,684 --> 00:10:21,164 Speaker 2: where I never go. I hate Grand Central, but I 203 00:10:21,204 --> 00:10:24,684 Speaker 2: went because it really Yeah, Grand Central's nice, it's beautiful, 204 00:10:26,044 --> 00:10:27,484 Speaker 2: but I just, oh, I don't like any of the 205 00:10:27,644 --> 00:10:30,684 Speaker 2: like I don't like going to train stations like and 206 00:10:30,884 --> 00:10:33,524 Speaker 2: if I go there, it's for travel, but like Grand Central, 207 00:10:33,524 --> 00:10:36,324 Speaker 2: I never have to use like for whatever reason, you know, 208 00:10:36,724 --> 00:10:39,804 Speaker 2: I never travel out of Grand Central anyway. So I 209 00:10:39,844 --> 00:10:43,204 Speaker 2: went there specifically to see the Dear New York exhibition 210 00:10:44,364 --> 00:10:46,924 Speaker 2: from Humans of New York that was closing this weekend. 211 00:10:46,964 --> 00:10:50,924 Speaker 2: It was two weeks during which Grand Central all of 212 00:10:50,964 --> 00:10:54,124 Speaker 2: the advertising was taken off and it was completely taken 213 00:10:54,164 --> 00:10:57,244 Speaker 2: over by the humans of New York Photography. And they 214 00:10:57,244 --> 00:11:00,724 Speaker 2: also had a Steinway piano which was donated that was 215 00:11:00,764 --> 00:11:02,764 Speaker 2: in the middle of the hall, and they had Juilliard 216 00:11:03,324 --> 00:11:07,844 Speaker 2: musicians play during the day and some other cameos. Anyway, 217 00:11:08,084 --> 00:11:09,884 Speaker 2: so this was a big thing and I wanted to 218 00:11:09,924 --> 00:11:12,644 Speaker 2: see it, and I ended up leaving very quickly because 219 00:11:12,924 --> 00:11:15,884 Speaker 2: going the day before it closed was not a good idea. 220 00:11:16,244 --> 00:11:19,164 Speaker 2: And it was so ridiculously crowded and there were so 221 00:11:19,284 --> 00:11:22,284 Speaker 2: many people that I couldn't appreciate the photography and the 222 00:11:22,404 --> 00:11:24,924 Speaker 2: art and all of these things, because not only could 223 00:11:24,924 --> 00:11:26,964 Speaker 2: I not see anything, but I was being jostled from 224 00:11:27,004 --> 00:11:28,964 Speaker 2: every single side, and I was like, you know what, 225 00:11:29,044 --> 00:11:31,604 Speaker 2: it's not I'm getting out of here. Like I actually 226 00:11:31,844 --> 00:11:35,724 Speaker 2: started feeling, you know, this sense of claustrophobia and anxiety. 227 00:11:36,284 --> 00:11:39,164 Speaker 2: So I don't do well in situations where there are 228 00:11:39,204 --> 00:11:41,884 Speaker 2: too many people near me. I hate crowded subways. 229 00:11:41,964 --> 00:11:42,084 Speaker 1: Night. 230 00:11:42,124 --> 00:11:43,924 Speaker 2: Whenever I see one that's too crowded and I have 231 00:11:43,964 --> 00:11:47,084 Speaker 2: to get on, I'm like oh, man, I suddenly envision 232 00:11:47,164 --> 00:11:50,364 Speaker 2: the worst case scenario, which is that we get stuck, right, 233 00:11:50,484 --> 00:11:53,524 Speaker 2: that we get stuck in between stations, and I'm on 234 00:11:53,564 --> 00:11:57,724 Speaker 2: this ridiculously crowded subway car and I have been something 235 00:11:59,084 --> 00:12:01,284 Speaker 2: I don't know. I just really I have no idea. 236 00:12:01,644 --> 00:12:04,604 Speaker 2: I just really do not like crowds. It's something that like, 237 00:12:05,324 --> 00:12:08,404 Speaker 2: I get very anxious over. So no, I did not 238 00:12:08,484 --> 00:12:10,964 Speaker 2: go to that protest, and I'm not a protest person. 239 00:12:11,724 --> 00:12:18,124 Speaker 2: But the underlying question was kind of was there for 240 00:12:18,164 --> 00:12:21,244 Speaker 2: a reason, which is that if we think about protests 241 00:12:21,764 --> 00:12:25,884 Speaker 2: in a broader sense, there's a very strong kind of 242 00:12:25,924 --> 00:12:30,364 Speaker 2: game theoretic reason why protests are powerful, and that has 243 00:12:30,684 --> 00:12:33,964 Speaker 2: nothing to do with like, oh, you're in a crowd, 244 00:12:34,004 --> 00:12:38,484 Speaker 2: but everything to do with signaling. Right, So a protest, 245 00:12:39,364 --> 00:12:42,324 Speaker 2: there's I didn't not go because I don't think it's 246 00:12:42,364 --> 00:12:45,644 Speaker 2: not worth it. I didn't go because just personally, I, 247 00:12:45,924 --> 00:12:48,124 Speaker 2: like I said, I hate crowds. But I do think 248 00:12:48,124 --> 00:12:52,084 Speaker 2: it's worth it for the simple reason that there's coordination 249 00:12:52,284 --> 00:12:55,004 Speaker 2: issues and kind of there's power in sending a very 250 00:12:55,044 --> 00:12:59,524 Speaker 2: strong signal that people can then look at to say, oh, 251 00:12:59,884 --> 00:13:02,004 Speaker 2: I'm not the only one who feels this way, there 252 00:13:02,004 --> 00:13:05,044 Speaker 2: are lots of people who feel this way. And now 253 00:13:05,124 --> 00:13:07,924 Speaker 2: I know, right now that I know that there is 254 00:13:08,044 --> 00:13:11,364 Speaker 2: all of this support out there for something that I 255 00:13:11,484 --> 00:13:15,924 Speaker 2: believe that is not always visible because when you're online 256 00:13:16,044 --> 00:13:18,444 Speaker 2: kind of in you know, Twitter or whatever it is, 257 00:13:18,484 --> 00:13:21,204 Speaker 2: you see a very specific subset of opinions. You're in 258 00:13:21,244 --> 00:13:26,884 Speaker 2: a very specific bubble. But protests throughout history, when people 259 00:13:26,964 --> 00:13:29,924 Speaker 2: go out in public, it's a signaling mechanism, right, and 260 00:13:30,524 --> 00:13:35,284 Speaker 2: it's then a coordination mechanism where you can actually point 261 00:13:35,284 --> 00:13:37,444 Speaker 2: to it and say, Okay, look, you know, here's a 262 00:13:37,444 --> 00:13:41,964 Speaker 2: group of people who hold certain views, and that can 263 00:13:42,004 --> 00:13:47,124 Speaker 2: be incredibly powerful for future momentum and future decision making. 264 00:13:47,324 --> 00:13:49,564 Speaker 2: By the way, it's even more powerful when we're talking 265 00:13:49,564 --> 00:13:55,524 Speaker 2: about truly authoritarian regimes countries where there's very little communication 266 00:13:56,084 --> 00:13:58,444 Speaker 2: between people. We're not there yet in the United States, 267 00:13:58,644 --> 00:14:01,004 Speaker 2: but it's powerful even in a democratic society. 268 00:14:02,204 --> 00:14:02,524 Speaker 1: Yeah. 269 00:14:02,564 --> 00:14:07,484 Speaker 4: Look, these process had a very large scale. They happened 270 00:14:07,484 --> 00:14:11,724 Speaker 4: in hundreds of cities. I'm always a little bit skeptical 271 00:14:11,884 --> 00:14:15,204 Speaker 4: of crowd sized estimates, which tend to be overestimates, but 272 00:14:15,484 --> 00:14:18,684 Speaker 4: several million, I think it's safe to say, which makes 273 00:14:18,724 --> 00:14:20,564 Speaker 4: it quite high on a list of like all time 274 00:14:21,044 --> 00:14:25,964 Speaker 4: one day protests at least. I mean, look, as you 275 00:14:26,044 --> 00:14:31,804 Speaker 4: get a larger size of crowd, then these things tend 276 00:14:31,844 --> 00:14:37,044 Speaker 4: to become a little bit more amorphous, right, And you 277 00:14:37,044 --> 00:14:41,204 Speaker 4: can see various critiques like, Okay, maybe the protests are 278 00:14:41,244 --> 00:14:43,804 Speaker 4: a little bit cringe and considering who we're dealing with, right, 279 00:14:43,804 --> 00:14:47,124 Speaker 4: we're dealing with like kind of like mostly boomery, good 280 00:14:47,164 --> 00:14:50,044 Speaker 4: government democrat types. Yeah, they're a little cringe, right, And 281 00:14:50,164 --> 00:14:53,404 Speaker 4: like the message just when you can critique, I mean, 282 00:14:54,084 --> 00:14:54,524 Speaker 4: you know. 283 00:14:54,564 --> 00:14:57,684 Speaker 3: Does no kings quite makes sense? 284 00:14:57,964 --> 00:15:01,084 Speaker 4: I'm not sure the idea is Trump is a king 285 00:15:01,284 --> 00:15:03,684 Speaker 4: so much as an authoritarian. 286 00:15:03,724 --> 00:15:06,444 Speaker 3: Those aren't quite the same thing exactly, But. 287 00:15:08,084 --> 00:15:10,044 Speaker 4: It kind of doesn't matter because like what you're trying 288 00:15:10,044 --> 00:15:13,004 Speaker 4: to do is a demonstrate that, like, you know, yes, 289 00:15:13,044 --> 00:15:16,484 Speaker 4: we don't have elections all that often, and yes, last 290 00:15:16,484 --> 00:15:20,884 Speaker 4: time we had an election, Trump one narrowly, but there 291 00:15:20,964 --> 00:15:24,844 Speaker 4: are a lot of us number one, you know, a 292 00:15:24,884 --> 00:15:28,364 Speaker 4: conservative reminder to like the the media and things like that. 293 00:15:28,404 --> 00:15:30,284 Speaker 4: I mean, Trump is not that popular in the polls. 294 00:15:30,324 --> 00:15:32,764 Speaker 4: He's not popular in the polls. He's not that unpopular either, right, 295 00:15:32,804 --> 00:15:37,964 Speaker 4: but like you know, these things can be a spectacle 296 00:15:38,084 --> 00:15:41,404 Speaker 4: in part and attract attention, that is, if anything like 297 00:15:41,484 --> 00:15:46,404 Speaker 4: a little bit outsize relative to the number of people participating, right, 298 00:15:46,404 --> 00:15:49,124 Speaker 4: because they're physical, they're outside there. In some cases do 299 00:15:49,164 --> 00:15:51,124 Speaker 4: you seem to be rather gentle minded, but they can 300 00:15:51,204 --> 00:15:52,924 Speaker 4: be like confrontational. 301 00:15:53,004 --> 00:15:53,124 Speaker 2: Right. 302 00:15:53,164 --> 00:15:57,244 Speaker 3: If you look at the number of students of the people. 303 00:15:57,124 --> 00:16:02,124 Speaker 4: Participating in the pro Palestinian protests over the past year 304 00:16:02,124 --> 00:16:06,204 Speaker 4: and a half, those are not I'm being honest, those 305 00:16:06,204 --> 00:16:07,564 Speaker 4: are not particularly large protests. 306 00:16:07,564 --> 00:16:09,044 Speaker 3: If you'd look look at the numbers for that. It's 307 00:16:09,044 --> 00:16:10,924 Speaker 3: not like Kings or something like that. 308 00:16:11,044 --> 00:16:14,284 Speaker 4: Right, However, they still got a ton of media coverage 309 00:16:14,604 --> 00:16:16,764 Speaker 4: shipped the narrative. I'm not sure whether they shifted the 310 00:16:16,844 --> 00:16:19,084 Speaker 4: narrative in the direction of protesters wanted they, but they 311 00:16:19,164 --> 00:16:23,644 Speaker 4: have they have a big effect potentially, Yeah, for sure. 312 00:16:23,564 --> 00:16:27,764 Speaker 2: For sure. And I do think that the narrative is 313 00:16:27,844 --> 00:16:31,724 Speaker 2: also something that's that's quite important. So I mentioned before 314 00:16:32,644 --> 00:16:36,564 Speaker 2: kind of the signaling mechanism, which is on an individual 315 00:16:36,644 --> 00:16:40,964 Speaker 2: level I think important to then coordinate action further down 316 00:16:41,004 --> 00:16:48,364 Speaker 2: the line. But also framing the narrative is, especially in 317 00:16:48,404 --> 00:16:54,644 Speaker 2: the modern age, something that is really important in an 318 00:16:54,684 --> 00:16:58,724 Speaker 2: intentionally divided economy. Right, it to not in the past 319 00:16:58,764 --> 00:17:02,684 Speaker 2: where everyone watched one single TV show, right, or one 320 00:17:02,804 --> 00:17:07,284 Speaker 2: single news channel, and there was kind of this collective 321 00:17:09,044 --> 00:17:11,124 Speaker 2: knowledge of like, oh, these are the things that are 322 00:17:11,164 --> 00:17:14,084 Speaker 2: in the news, et cetera, et cetera. These days, it's 323 00:17:14,204 --> 00:17:19,084 Speaker 2: very fragmented, right, There's a very fragmented media landscape, and 324 00:17:20,004 --> 00:17:23,644 Speaker 2: so many different things are vuying for our attention on 325 00:17:23,804 --> 00:17:28,644 Speaker 2: any given basis. And the Trump administration has shown itself 326 00:17:28,684 --> 00:17:32,924 Speaker 2: to be much better than a lot of democratic operatives, 327 00:17:32,964 --> 00:17:36,524 Speaker 2: to be perfectly honest at capturing attention and creating a narrative, 328 00:17:36,644 --> 00:17:39,844 Speaker 2: right and creating something that makes it feel like it's 329 00:17:39,884 --> 00:17:44,284 Speaker 2: this inevitable all American force, and something like the No 330 00:17:44,484 --> 00:17:48,084 Speaker 2: King's protest is a really interesting moment that can potentially 331 00:17:48,164 --> 00:17:49,404 Speaker 2: shape the narrative of weight. 332 00:17:49,764 --> 00:17:50,404 Speaker 1: You know, we have. 333 00:17:50,364 --> 00:17:54,684 Speaker 2: Protesters in the heart of Red Texas and all of 334 00:17:54,724 --> 00:17:57,724 Speaker 2: these different areas, and they've all come out, and they've 335 00:17:57,764 --> 00:18:01,844 Speaker 2: all coordinated, and it's a pretty significant number of people, 336 00:18:02,284 --> 00:18:05,284 Speaker 2: and so it's a I think it's a way of 337 00:18:05,684 --> 00:18:08,004 Speaker 2: creating a counter narrative to a lot of what we 338 00:18:08,084 --> 00:18:09,724 Speaker 2: see online. 339 00:18:09,524 --> 00:18:14,724 Speaker 3: And we'll be right back after this break. 340 00:18:27,884 --> 00:18:30,724 Speaker 2: This might lead us Nate to kind of a broader 341 00:18:30,804 --> 00:18:33,884 Speaker 2: consideration of you know, what matters, right when you're trying 342 00:18:33,884 --> 00:18:37,044 Speaker 2: to kind of craft this craft a narrative that actually 343 00:18:37,644 --> 00:18:41,484 Speaker 2: changes minds and changes action, because one of the critiques 344 00:18:41,524 --> 00:18:43,484 Speaker 2: one can have of things like protest is, well, you're 345 00:18:43,524 --> 00:18:47,484 Speaker 2: not actually doing anything right. You're not voting, you're not lobbying, 346 00:18:47,524 --> 00:18:51,444 Speaker 2: you're not changing legislation, you're not reaching out to your 347 00:18:51,484 --> 00:18:54,324 Speaker 2: congress people like, you're not doing anything like that. But 348 00:18:54,364 --> 00:18:56,724 Speaker 2: on the other hand, you're doing something because you're sending 349 00:18:57,004 --> 00:18:59,684 Speaker 2: a signal to the government. You know that these are 350 00:18:59,724 --> 00:19:01,964 Speaker 2: the things that matter here where people who feel this 351 00:19:02,004 --> 00:19:04,364 Speaker 2: way live, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. So let 352 00:19:04,444 --> 00:19:07,004 Speaker 2: me let me just let me just stop there and 353 00:19:07,044 --> 00:19:10,124 Speaker 2: get your thoughts on this and on because of your thoughts, 354 00:19:10,124 --> 00:19:14,044 Speaker 2: your thoughts more broadly kind of about the effectives of 355 00:19:14,124 --> 00:19:17,284 Speaker 2: certain tactics versus other when you're trying to shape a 356 00:19:17,364 --> 00:19:21,004 Speaker 2: narrative that with the ultimate goal, because presumably this is 357 00:19:21,004 --> 00:19:25,004 Speaker 2: the ultimate goal of change, right, of actually affecting real 358 00:19:25,124 --> 00:19:27,924 Speaker 2: change in the government, in government policies and in what 359 00:19:28,124 --> 00:19:29,804 Speaker 2: happens in the country going forward. 360 00:19:30,364 --> 00:19:33,284 Speaker 4: Yeah, look, I mean compared to other things, I say, 361 00:19:33,284 --> 00:19:35,844 Speaker 4: protesting is relatively effective. I mean, like I you know, 362 00:19:36,204 --> 00:19:41,844 Speaker 4: protesting is higher effort than voting, and voting is samously 363 00:19:42,364 --> 00:19:45,844 Speaker 4: questionably rational. I suppose if you live in the state 364 00:19:45,924 --> 00:19:47,724 Speaker 4: like New York, you have your you can voting about it. 365 00:19:48,244 --> 00:19:50,524 Speaker 4: But like, as you don't New York, you're voting. 366 00:19:50,644 --> 00:19:51,244 Speaker 3: Voting kind of. 367 00:19:51,404 --> 00:19:52,004 Speaker 1: As a. 368 00:19:54,324 --> 00:19:57,604 Speaker 4: Symbolic act does a specific act is a protest almost 369 00:19:57,684 --> 00:20:04,244 Speaker 4: and not necessarily is like I'm actually influence the election result, right. Yeah, Look, 370 00:20:04,524 --> 00:20:06,364 Speaker 4: part of it is I don't like the people that 371 00:20:06,564 --> 00:20:08,804 Speaker 4: kind of talk about like setting the narrative very often 372 00:20:10,204 --> 00:20:12,004 Speaker 4: are very good about setting. 373 00:20:15,004 --> 00:20:16,124 Speaker 1: I think that's very true. 374 00:20:16,324 --> 00:20:21,004 Speaker 4: And you know, a critique the Democrats strategy on the shutdown, 375 00:20:21,164 --> 00:20:26,684 Speaker 4: right because like it's like it's like too narrow and 376 00:20:26,804 --> 00:20:28,364 Speaker 4: like it's not you know, I don't know, right, And 377 00:20:28,484 --> 00:20:31,524 Speaker 4: it's like you have to focus on healthcare, right, But 378 00:20:31,564 --> 00:20:34,724 Speaker 4: their question is not about healthcare. If you look at 379 00:20:34,764 --> 00:20:37,364 Speaker 4: like Google searches for healthcare, people are not particularly focused 380 00:20:37,724 --> 00:20:39,084 Speaker 4: on that. It's not what they're I mean, they care 381 00:20:39,084 --> 00:20:41,124 Speaker 4: about healthcare, it's like not what their heart is into. 382 00:20:41,764 --> 00:20:42,724 Speaker 3: So have us kind of like. 383 00:20:43,724 --> 00:20:53,004 Speaker 4: Amorphous outpouring of peaceful anti Trump sentiment. That's kind of 384 00:20:53,164 --> 00:20:56,444 Speaker 4: more not normy. I'm sure that people there are watching 385 00:20:56,484 --> 00:20:59,444 Speaker 4: what then was NBC and reading lotless substacks, right, but like, 386 00:20:59,924 --> 00:21:00,724 Speaker 4: but to have this kind of. 387 00:21:00,724 --> 00:21:03,404 Speaker 3: More normy vibe, I think you. 388 00:21:05,044 --> 00:21:08,164 Speaker 4: Worthwhile, right, and you know it's trobably more effective than 389 00:21:08,164 --> 00:21:09,724 Speaker 4: they shut down, which agin I think it's how and 390 00:21:09,764 --> 00:21:12,644 Speaker 4: thank for Democrats very much at all. You know, so 391 00:21:12,844 --> 00:21:16,844 Speaker 4: I do not think you know, people in Blue Sky 392 00:21:16,924 --> 00:21:18,724 Speaker 4: can quote me on this. I do not think that 393 00:21:18,884 --> 00:21:25,364 Speaker 4: we are on like the doorstep to authoritarianism. I think 394 00:21:25,564 --> 00:21:30,044 Speaker 4: I think America has I think it's the over simplication, right, 395 00:21:30,084 --> 00:21:32,484 Speaker 4: I think America has a lot of robust checks and 396 00:21:32,524 --> 00:21:36,084 Speaker 4: balances which are being substantially fraid. I think we might 397 00:21:36,124 --> 00:21:41,324 Speaker 4: be in like the ante room before the doorstep, though, right, 398 00:21:42,564 --> 00:21:47,724 Speaker 4: ye and gef there are actions such as like Trump 399 00:21:47,844 --> 00:21:49,684 Speaker 4: trying to make it difficult for people to vote in 400 00:21:49,764 --> 00:21:53,844 Speaker 4: twenty twenty six or twenty twenty eight for example. Right, 401 00:21:53,924 --> 00:21:56,964 Speaker 4: I mean you can imagine open defiance to leave the 402 00:21:57,004 --> 00:22:00,844 Speaker 4: White House after his term is over, open defiance of 403 00:22:00,884 --> 00:22:03,644 Speaker 4: a Supreme Court order. You know, one thing that I'll 404 00:22:03,684 --> 00:22:05,284 Speaker 4: hear from is you'll see you'll hear your kind of 405 00:22:05,324 --> 00:22:10,684 Speaker 4: democratic activists types kind of say, like, look, I realized 406 00:22:10,724 --> 00:22:13,404 Speaker 4: that if you're kind of like leading your life, then 407 00:22:13,564 --> 00:22:17,004 Speaker 4: things might seem pretty normal unless you're an immigrant or 408 00:22:17,044 --> 00:22:19,564 Speaker 4: unless you's these other you know, a student, unless it's 409 00:22:19,564 --> 00:22:23,204 Speaker 4: other sugar categories. And like in some sense and some 410 00:22:23,324 --> 00:22:27,644 Speaker 4: since Trump has been smart about that, right, Like he's 411 00:22:27,644 --> 00:22:30,644 Speaker 4: been smart about like the world doesn't feel like it's 412 00:22:31,884 --> 00:22:35,084 Speaker 4: in chaos if you live in in New York, right, 413 00:22:35,404 --> 00:22:38,284 Speaker 4: And I even think that, like, you know, there are 414 00:22:38,404 --> 00:22:42,844 Speaker 4: things like the ice raids and National Guard deployments in 415 00:22:42,964 --> 00:22:45,564 Speaker 4: different cities and things like that, right, and if you're 416 00:22:45,604 --> 00:22:48,404 Speaker 4: very politically aware of these will seem a whole right, 417 00:22:48,484 --> 00:22:53,684 Speaker 4: But like I don't think they're noticeable for ordinary people either, right, 418 00:22:53,764 --> 00:22:57,364 Speaker 4: Like I was in Chicago for a talk the you know, 419 00:22:58,244 --> 00:23:00,044 Speaker 4: the we can There are a bunch of ice actions 420 00:23:00,084 --> 00:23:02,484 Speaker 4: there on the South side of Chicago, and like I 421 00:23:02,524 --> 00:23:06,484 Speaker 4: actually had a bunch of like political conversations there. I mean, 422 00:23:06,524 --> 00:23:08,204 Speaker 4: I have friends there who are interested in politics, and 423 00:23:08,244 --> 00:23:10,164 Speaker 4: they woud talk where we talking abouts and stuff like that, 424 00:23:10,284 --> 00:23:13,244 Speaker 4: and like it didn't really come up, right, not because 425 00:23:13,244 --> 00:23:14,804 Speaker 4: of what they think about Politicia unaware of it though, 426 00:23:14,804 --> 00:23:17,764 Speaker 4: because like you know, I think there's this gap between 427 00:23:19,044 --> 00:23:23,284 Speaker 4: the way that political insiders and political message crafts people 428 00:23:23,324 --> 00:23:27,084 Speaker 4: who are very online experience politics and the way that 429 00:23:27,284 --> 00:23:29,804 Speaker 4: ordinary people do. I mean talking about a protests that 430 00:23:29,924 --> 00:23:35,164 Speaker 4: has mass numbers millions, millions, you're bridging that gap like 431 00:23:35,804 --> 00:23:39,444 Speaker 4: a little bit, right, because you know what percent of 432 00:23:39,484 --> 00:23:43,724 Speaker 4: people watch MSNBC, Box and New CNN. It's like one 433 00:23:43,764 --> 00:23:45,724 Speaker 4: percent of the country like watching them on the given day. 434 00:23:45,764 --> 00:23:48,044 Speaker 4: It's like quite small, you know what I mean? 435 00:23:48,724 --> 00:23:49,084 Speaker 2: Is that right? 436 00:23:49,204 --> 00:23:52,084 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's really small and if anything, probably you know 437 00:23:52,244 --> 00:23:55,244 Speaker 4: political surveys or bioteople who participate, right, and so yeah, 438 00:23:55,324 --> 00:23:58,564 Speaker 4: like you know, the number of MSNBC viewers and the 439 00:23:58,644 --> 00:24:01,124 Speaker 4: demo was in like the low to mid six digits 440 00:24:01,764 --> 00:24:05,204 Speaker 4: usually meaning eighteen to forty nine or how they define that, right. 441 00:24:05,444 --> 00:24:07,564 Speaker 4: You know a lot of older people who are just 442 00:24:07,644 --> 00:24:10,484 Speaker 4: kind of watching TV and maybe not doing that much else. 443 00:24:11,564 --> 00:24:14,004 Speaker 4: But yeah, people kind of miss these scale things and 444 00:24:14,204 --> 00:24:16,964 Speaker 4: like and the number one problem that like political strategies, 445 00:24:17,044 --> 00:24:20,964 Speaker 4: most polical strategists have is like they think exactly the 446 00:24:20,964 --> 00:24:26,404 Speaker 4: opposite from how from how the normies do, right, and 447 00:24:27,084 --> 00:24:31,644 Speaker 4: you know, a more narrow protest, right, like you know, 448 00:24:31,884 --> 00:24:35,964 Speaker 4: I would take again the GOSPAP protests as something that 449 00:24:36,124 --> 00:24:41,244 Speaker 4: have like relatively fear both, right, and they spin out 450 00:24:41,284 --> 00:24:43,044 Speaker 4: on the things and there's messing that might be dumb 451 00:24:43,164 --> 00:24:46,364 Speaker 4: in whatever health, right, But like you know, on a university, 452 00:24:46,404 --> 00:24:48,844 Speaker 4: we want the university to bess these investments and changes 453 00:24:48,924 --> 00:24:52,924 Speaker 4: policy and this and that, right, you know. And those 454 00:24:52,924 --> 00:24:56,364 Speaker 4: are pretty narrowly targeted protests, but smaller in scale. This 455 00:24:56,524 --> 00:25:00,164 Speaker 4: is amorphous. I mean things like Occupy Wall Street, which 456 00:25:00,244 --> 00:25:04,364 Speaker 4: was not particularly large protests, right, but like where the 457 00:25:04,484 --> 00:25:07,484 Speaker 4: Tea Party is an example on the Republican conservative side 458 00:25:07,764 --> 00:25:10,084 Speaker 4: a little bit more right, that's a little bit i'morphous. 459 00:25:11,524 --> 00:25:17,124 Speaker 4: And amorphosis can be good because like you want different 460 00:25:17,164 --> 00:25:19,964 Speaker 4: people to be able to interpret it in different ways, 461 00:25:20,644 --> 00:25:24,044 Speaker 4: and you know, the overall sentiment is clear enough Trump 462 00:25:24,084 --> 00:25:29,244 Speaker 4: babert aboutthoritarrying rule or monarchical rule. I'll give them a 463 00:25:29,444 --> 00:25:31,724 Speaker 4: credit of paths on the imprecise metaphor. 464 00:25:33,684 --> 00:25:38,444 Speaker 2: What do you think is more effective having a protest 465 00:25:38,484 --> 00:25:41,804 Speaker 2: that has very clear stated goals or ones that are 466 00:25:42,364 --> 00:25:45,364 Speaker 2: expressing these broader sentiments, Because I don't know what your 467 00:25:45,444 --> 00:25:49,644 Speaker 2: perception of Occupy Wall Street's ultimate effectiveness was. Mine was 468 00:25:49,724 --> 00:25:53,684 Speaker 2: that not much ended up changing. It was also Occupy 469 00:25:53,724 --> 00:25:54,924 Speaker 2: Wall Street. By the way, it was on a much 470 00:25:54,964 --> 00:25:58,964 Speaker 2: smaller scale than what we're talking about with No Kings. 471 00:25:59,324 --> 00:26:02,564 Speaker 2: But what's your sense of Like if you were trying 472 00:26:02,684 --> 00:26:05,964 Speaker 2: to be like, Okay, you know, I want people to 473 00:26:07,284 --> 00:26:10,084 Speaker 2: be aware of all of these I want draw attention 474 00:26:10,204 --> 00:26:13,484 Speaker 2: to all of these excesses happening that people might not 475 00:26:13,604 --> 00:26:16,204 Speaker 2: be aware of unless they're very like politically tied in. 476 00:26:16,804 --> 00:26:18,964 Speaker 2: I want them to be aware of, you know, tipping 477 00:26:19,044 --> 00:26:23,444 Speaker 2: points in kind of the legal structure, et cetera, et cetera, 478 00:26:23,884 --> 00:26:26,924 Speaker 2: that some of these checks are you know, yes, so 479 00:26:27,044 --> 00:26:29,964 Speaker 2: far democracy is holding. We do have robust checks and balances, 480 00:26:30,004 --> 00:26:32,324 Speaker 2: but we are in the ante room, as you said, 481 00:26:32,844 --> 00:26:35,484 Speaker 2: as you phrased it, and like some of these things 482 00:26:35,564 --> 00:26:38,844 Speaker 2: are really being strained, and a lot of people don't 483 00:26:38,844 --> 00:26:41,364 Speaker 2: seem to be aware of that. Like if you were 484 00:26:41,524 --> 00:26:44,884 Speaker 2: organizing a protest, would it look like the No Kings 485 00:26:45,004 --> 00:26:48,364 Speaker 2: protest broadly speaking? Broadly speaking, like let's as you say, 486 00:26:48,644 --> 00:26:51,484 Speaker 2: you know, let's ignore the semantics, Like would it be 487 00:26:51,644 --> 00:26:55,524 Speaker 2: kind of more amorphous like general sentiment, like please work 488 00:26:55,564 --> 00:26:57,844 Speaker 2: with us legislators and like let's try to figure out 489 00:26:58,204 --> 00:27:01,044 Speaker 2: a strategy to counter this, or would you say you 490 00:27:01,124 --> 00:27:04,564 Speaker 2: know what before we do this protest, like, let's think 491 00:27:04,644 --> 00:27:08,644 Speaker 2: of three big goals and like have everyone have posters 492 00:27:08,724 --> 00:27:11,164 Speaker 2: with those you know, with those goals, et cetera, et cetera, 493 00:27:11,244 --> 00:27:14,364 Speaker 2: and like actually try to do something that is more 494 00:27:14,684 --> 00:27:17,804 Speaker 2: targeted but still broad. I don't know that I have 495 00:27:17,964 --> 00:27:21,124 Speaker 2: a clear answer to that, so I'm curious whether you do. 496 00:27:21,404 --> 00:27:23,604 Speaker 4: Yeah, look, I don't know if I'm the extra don 497 00:27:23,644 --> 00:27:25,044 Speaker 4: protests here. By the way, I think I could buy 498 00:27:25,084 --> 00:27:27,684 Speaker 4: Wall Street. We punched someone above its weight, like a 499 00:27:27,804 --> 00:27:30,324 Speaker 4: kind of introducer at least popularized the praise. We're the 500 00:27:30,364 --> 00:27:32,884 Speaker 4: ninety nine percent than the one percent, and like that's true. 501 00:27:33,004 --> 00:27:36,204 Speaker 4: That's a means for many years, fourteen years later, whatever 502 00:27:36,244 --> 00:27:38,124 Speaker 4: it is is pretty powerful potentially. 503 00:27:38,564 --> 00:27:40,764 Speaker 2: Yeah, look, it's so funny. I totally forgot that that 504 00:27:40,884 --> 00:27:42,244 Speaker 2: came from Occupy Wall Street. 505 00:27:42,324 --> 00:27:43,164 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right. 506 00:27:44,484 --> 00:27:47,844 Speaker 4: Look, I think you have different issues here. What is 507 00:27:47,884 --> 00:27:53,644 Speaker 4: that Although Trump is unpopular, he's not enormously unpopular. He 508 00:27:53,804 --> 00:27:57,524 Speaker 4: won election twice, including just you know, not quite a 509 00:27:57,604 --> 00:28:00,324 Speaker 4: year ago, and the critiques. 510 00:27:59,964 --> 00:28:02,804 Speaker 3: Of him are kind of disparate. 511 00:28:02,924 --> 00:28:04,644 Speaker 4: Right, people don't like, you know, some people are to 512 00:28:04,724 --> 00:28:06,444 Speaker 4: chinking about the economy, which I think might be a 513 00:28:06,484 --> 00:28:08,644 Speaker 4: more appropriate such a per focus in part because like 514 00:28:09,004 --> 00:28:11,444 Speaker 4: it is no whole day to day A little bit 515 00:28:11,484 --> 00:28:14,004 Speaker 4: more people are concerned about immigration or authoritarism, they are 516 00:28:14,044 --> 00:28:15,964 Speaker 4: long standing concerns about climate change and. 517 00:28:17,564 --> 00:28:18,164 Speaker 3: Whatever else. 518 00:28:18,244 --> 00:28:22,684 Speaker 4: People think he's the racist, naphobic, sexist, people think he's corrupt. 519 00:28:22,884 --> 00:28:26,484 Speaker 4: I'm not. I'm not unendorsing any of these ideas, by 520 00:28:26,524 --> 00:28:28,724 Speaker 4: the way, right, But like Trump has always given people 521 00:28:29,684 --> 00:28:32,244 Speaker 4: so many such a large attack surface to term is 522 00:28:32,284 --> 00:28:35,004 Speaker 4: different ways in that like it actually kind of renders 523 00:28:35,044 --> 00:28:38,004 Speaker 4: itself toward it ineffective, right, And so like, on the 524 00:28:38,084 --> 00:28:45,004 Speaker 4: one hand, it might seem like the way to attack 525 00:28:45,124 --> 00:28:50,204 Speaker 4: that is to focus on one particular avenue, right, However 526 00:28:50,364 --> 00:28:51,924 Speaker 4: a is at the right avenue and be like I 527 00:28:51,924 --> 00:28:54,364 Speaker 4: think Karen Tula, that might that might work less well, 528 00:28:54,524 --> 00:28:58,684 Speaker 4: right because like remember one again, all the total anti 529 00:28:58,724 --> 00:29:01,404 Speaker 4: Trump democratic energy, they're trying to make a shutdown about healthcare. 530 00:29:01,964 --> 00:29:04,684 Speaker 4: If you read the newsletters, read the sub sex of 531 00:29:04,724 --> 00:29:07,844 Speaker 4: little Subtext or blue Sky whatever else, right, maybe one 532 00:29:07,924 --> 00:29:09,684 Speaker 4: or two percent of the messages are about healthcare from 533 00:29:09,804 --> 00:29:13,644 Speaker 4: like not the actual base, but like the activist online 534 00:29:14,404 --> 00:29:16,524 Speaker 4: part of the base, right, And so like, you know, 535 00:29:16,684 --> 00:29:19,924 Speaker 4: you're kind of losing people there a little bit. Number two, 536 00:29:19,964 --> 00:29:23,764 Speaker 4: Trump is very very good at like changing the subject 537 00:29:24,364 --> 00:29:27,764 Speaker 4: or redirecting attention. Right, So if he ever has a weakness, 538 00:29:27,844 --> 00:29:30,924 Speaker 4: he's like it's so the metaphor of like Trump being 539 00:29:30,964 --> 00:29:34,404 Speaker 4: a ship that you have different kind of which to attack, right, 540 00:29:34,604 --> 00:29:37,004 Speaker 4: Like it doesn't quite work because it can fight back 541 00:29:37,404 --> 00:29:41,204 Speaker 4: in different ways. Right, yeah, so you know, yeah, maybe 542 00:29:41,364 --> 00:29:46,284 Speaker 4: having this kind of like more amorphous kind of gathering 543 00:29:46,404 --> 00:29:46,924 Speaker 4: of energy. 544 00:29:47,004 --> 00:29:51,084 Speaker 3: You know what I don't know of having I been 545 00:29:51,244 --> 00:29:54,444 Speaker 3: a protests, right, you know, the most important thing is 546 00:29:54,484 --> 00:29:56,724 Speaker 3: probably are you gathering. 547 00:29:57,764 --> 00:30:04,324 Speaker 4: Lists of people who can become politically organized in in 548 00:30:04,444 --> 00:30:08,924 Speaker 4: different ways? And importantly for me, you know, can you 549 00:30:09,004 --> 00:30:12,684 Speaker 4: have these that are outside the offices of the kind 550 00:30:12,724 --> 00:30:15,124 Speaker 4: of capital D democratic party? Right? 551 00:30:15,164 --> 00:30:16,564 Speaker 3: I think the cretic parties. 552 00:30:16,244 --> 00:30:18,324 Speaker 4: Often have healthy at like the local and state level, 553 00:30:18,364 --> 00:30:20,444 Speaker 4: But like I to a Frisch approximation, think that like 554 00:30:21,364 --> 00:30:23,684 Speaker 4: every person in afficition of power and their Credit Party 555 00:30:24,084 --> 00:30:26,764 Speaker 4: should be fired, right, Like I think the party is lost. 556 00:30:27,004 --> 00:30:29,084 Speaker 3: No, I mean seriously, like the the Credit Party is 557 00:30:29,124 --> 00:30:31,724 Speaker 3: like lost, Like you know, it lost an election to 558 00:30:31,804 --> 00:30:32,684 Speaker 3: Trump twice. 559 00:30:32,804 --> 00:30:36,524 Speaker 4: Right. Renominating Joe Biden was a good idea all the 560 00:30:36,564 --> 00:30:38,844 Speaker 4: leaders are too fucking old, like anybody over the age 561 00:30:38,884 --> 00:30:42,884 Speaker 4: of fifty in a leadership position, Let's let's have a 562 00:30:42,964 --> 00:30:45,484 Speaker 4: generational goodbye, right, and if you're the age of fifty, 563 00:30:45,524 --> 00:30:48,404 Speaker 4: their credit party, I think should well. I think, you know, 564 00:30:48,684 --> 00:30:50,884 Speaker 4: Democrats goals may be better off if those people were 565 00:30:51,724 --> 00:30:53,724 Speaker 4: were you know, replaced. Do you want to take a 566 00:30:53,764 --> 00:30:57,324 Speaker 4: couple of mulligans or exceptional right, But like, you know, 567 00:30:57,484 --> 00:30:59,404 Speaker 4: so they have like you know, so, yeah, I'm not 568 00:30:59,444 --> 00:31:02,164 Speaker 4: so sure that it's so far from what I indoors 569 00:31:02,244 --> 00:31:04,324 Speaker 4: I can the vibe is not mine. It feels a 570 00:31:04,324 --> 00:31:07,084 Speaker 4: little cringe to me. But like the cringe is okay, 571 00:31:07,244 --> 00:31:12,564 Speaker 4: creates happens when you have mass support for something, right, 572 00:31:12,604 --> 00:31:14,964 Speaker 4: it's inherently a little cringe. If you go like a 573 00:31:15,724 --> 00:31:18,724 Speaker 4: NFL game, the NFL is the most popular sport, cringe. 574 00:31:18,884 --> 00:31:21,684 Speaker 4: I love football, Right, they're a little bit cringe. Parades 575 00:31:21,724 --> 00:31:25,404 Speaker 4: are fucking cringe at right, Holidays are cringe. I mean, 576 00:31:25,444 --> 00:31:27,884 Speaker 4: all these things that are really popular are like, you know, 577 00:31:28,484 --> 00:31:31,644 Speaker 4: so watch American Idol. American Idol is cringe. Like popular 578 00:31:31,724 --> 00:31:32,604 Speaker 4: things are cringe for you. 579 00:31:34,724 --> 00:31:36,964 Speaker 2: Oh man, don't get me started on parades. I used 580 00:31:36,964 --> 00:31:41,004 Speaker 2: to live right next to the Halloween rad and. 581 00:31:41,164 --> 00:31:43,844 Speaker 1: Uh yeah, and New York. 582 00:31:45,484 --> 00:31:46,204 Speaker 3: Canceled because of that. 583 00:31:46,484 --> 00:31:47,524 Speaker 1: That's what happened. 584 00:31:48,204 --> 00:31:51,324 Speaker 2: So so I had lived in the West Village for 585 00:31:51,444 --> 00:31:54,364 Speaker 2: my like my all of my New York existence, you know, 586 00:31:54,444 --> 00:31:56,524 Speaker 2: that's where I moved when I just moved from, uh 587 00:31:57,004 --> 00:32:00,324 Speaker 2: from Boston and just loved the area and stayed there. 588 00:32:00,724 --> 00:32:03,964 Speaker 2: And so every single year I saw, you know, the 589 00:32:04,524 --> 00:32:08,164 Speaker 2: havoc that happened with the with the Halloween parade, and 590 00:32:08,764 --> 00:32:11,444 Speaker 2: knew that like basically on Halloween, I had to just 591 00:32:11,524 --> 00:32:14,644 Speaker 2: stay in my apartment and like don't do anything that 592 00:32:14,724 --> 00:32:19,124 Speaker 2: crosses Seventh Avenue. And then one day decide I saw 593 00:32:19,524 --> 00:32:21,644 Speaker 2: like there was a restaurant I really wanted to go to, 594 00:32:21,804 --> 00:32:24,284 Speaker 2: and like finally saw reservation pop up, and I was 595 00:32:24,364 --> 00:32:28,164 Speaker 2: like yay and took it. And of course the reservation 596 00:32:28,244 --> 00:32:30,124 Speaker 2: popped up because it was on the other side of 597 00:32:30,204 --> 00:32:30,964 Speaker 2: Seventh Avenue. 598 00:32:32,444 --> 00:32:35,084 Speaker 3: Walter Day. It really if you haven't experienced, it's very 599 00:32:35,204 --> 00:32:39,444 Speaker 3: hard to like but go up to like a roof 600 00:32:39,564 --> 00:32:42,444 Speaker 3: tower and like finally to the streets and their guests. 601 00:32:42,444 --> 00:32:49,004 Speaker 2: Yeah exactly exactly. It's it's horrifying and we'll be back 602 00:32:49,084 --> 00:33:07,724 Speaker 2: right after this. You know, it's interesting to talk about 603 00:33:07,764 --> 00:33:09,884 Speaker 2: this and to and to talk about like the importance 604 00:33:09,964 --> 00:33:12,724 Speaker 2: of general lives because if you and I, when you 605 00:33:12,844 --> 00:33:15,884 Speaker 2: and I talked about, you know, the best way to 606 00:33:16,164 --> 00:33:18,724 Speaker 2: organize a little less than a year ago, Nate and 607 00:33:18,884 --> 00:33:22,004 Speaker 2: we were talking about, you know, what's what can democrats do? 608 00:33:22,844 --> 00:33:26,804 Speaker 2: We decided collectively that they needed to focus on a 609 00:33:26,884 --> 00:33:29,204 Speaker 2: few issues. And when we were talking about how do 610 00:33:29,284 --> 00:33:32,004 Speaker 2: they win, right before Trump got elected, we were saying, Okay, 611 00:33:32,084 --> 00:33:34,124 Speaker 2: you know, your messaging should be focused on a few 612 00:33:34,204 --> 00:33:37,404 Speaker 2: issues where you can actually get votes, where people are 613 00:33:38,084 --> 00:33:40,924 Speaker 2: passionate about this, because the Trump campaign was much more 614 00:33:40,964 --> 00:33:43,364 Speaker 2: effective at that and we were saying, you know, I 615 00:33:43,484 --> 00:33:46,324 Speaker 2: remember you talking about immigration and saying, hey, Democrats, like 616 00:33:46,404 --> 00:33:49,364 Speaker 2: immigration's not your issue, Like stop talking about that instead, 617 00:33:49,724 --> 00:33:52,684 Speaker 2: like let's try to focus on on things that like 618 00:33:52,764 --> 00:33:55,764 Speaker 2: healthcare right that could actually be much more effective. Then 619 00:33:55,844 --> 00:33:58,404 Speaker 2: we were talking, you know, with the shutdown, et cetera, 620 00:33:58,524 --> 00:34:00,924 Speaker 2: that we should really be focusing on, like let's focus 621 00:34:00,964 --> 00:34:04,124 Speaker 2: on tariffs, Like let's let's do something focused when we're 622 00:34:04,124 --> 00:34:06,964 Speaker 2: talking about inside the government, and yet our advice for 623 00:34:07,204 --> 00:34:10,964 Speaker 2: people kind of outside the government seems to be to 624 00:34:11,924 --> 00:34:15,484 Speaker 2: have more of that vibe type of approach where you have, 625 00:34:16,484 --> 00:34:19,404 Speaker 2: as you say, cringe but we don't have to call 626 00:34:19,444 --> 00:34:23,084 Speaker 2: them crinch. But when you have these large scale events 627 00:34:23,284 --> 00:34:28,124 Speaker 2: that just show a general state of malaise, displeasure and 628 00:34:28,364 --> 00:34:33,364 Speaker 2: opens the opens the conversation up for policymakers to kind 629 00:34:33,364 --> 00:34:36,684 Speaker 2: of act in different ways as opposed to like pinpointing 630 00:34:36,804 --> 00:34:37,644 Speaker 2: one specific thing. 631 00:34:38,164 --> 00:34:39,724 Speaker 4: Yeah, let's the other thing is like, if you're a 632 00:34:39,764 --> 00:34:42,844 Speaker 4: political operative, then ironically you have like often a very 633 00:34:42,884 --> 00:34:47,364 Speaker 4: short term time horizon, right. You know, you have a 634 00:34:47,484 --> 00:34:50,084 Speaker 4: job where you get up and were the office of 635 00:34:50,124 --> 00:34:53,044 Speaker 4: eight thirty every every Monday. Maybe it's a romantic snacing 636 00:34:53,084 --> 00:34:54,684 Speaker 4: of it, right, but like, but you know you have 637 00:34:54,724 --> 00:34:57,724 Speaker 4: particular goals you have for that day, that week. That 638 00:34:57,884 --> 00:35:01,284 Speaker 4: news cycle right in the media is the same way, right, 639 00:35:01,364 --> 00:35:03,444 Speaker 4: we have to we have to you know, some weeks, Maria, 640 00:35:03,564 --> 00:35:05,564 Speaker 4: we have eight things people to talk about, right, some 641 00:35:05,644 --> 00:35:08,884 Speaker 4: weeks it's a well struggle, right, but you kind of 642 00:35:08,924 --> 00:35:10,444 Speaker 4: even the ow and something to come talking to point 643 00:35:10,484 --> 00:35:12,084 Speaker 4: and so like you know, yeah, it should be more 644 00:35:12,164 --> 00:35:15,964 Speaker 4: long term focus. Right. We still have more than a 645 00:35:16,044 --> 00:35:19,644 Speaker 4: year until the midterm elections, even we have more than 646 00:35:19,684 --> 00:35:23,244 Speaker 4: three years until the presidential election. And so yeah, you know, look, 647 00:35:24,444 --> 00:35:27,324 Speaker 4: the direct Party has always been that historically they're kind 648 00:35:27,324 --> 00:35:32,404 Speaker 4: of like this collection of different interest groups, right that 649 00:35:32,684 --> 00:35:36,924 Speaker 4: Democrats were collection of young people and union workers and 650 00:35:37,164 --> 00:35:41,004 Speaker 4: people of color and college professors. 651 00:35:40,484 --> 00:35:44,004 Speaker 3: And like you know, gay people and other people who. 652 00:35:43,964 --> 00:35:47,364 Speaker 4: Are you know, you know, ex communists, and like a 653 00:35:47,404 --> 00:35:50,284 Speaker 4: whole monthly crew of different types of folks that like 654 00:35:50,364 --> 00:35:53,604 Speaker 4: don't necessarily have that much interest in common but might 655 00:35:53,684 --> 00:35:57,484 Speaker 4: be marginalizing some ways, kind of like when you get 656 00:35:57,484 --> 00:36:02,964 Speaker 4: it intellectuals, right, you know what the Democratic Party is now, 657 00:36:03,244 --> 00:36:06,124 Speaker 4: it's a little bit less clear, Right, It's lost some 658 00:36:06,404 --> 00:36:09,804 Speaker 4: support from every one of those groups except the point 659 00:36:09,844 --> 00:36:13,684 Speaker 4: he headed intellectuals basically, right, it's loss of kiss among 660 00:36:14,084 --> 00:36:17,564 Speaker 4: Hispanic and Asian Americans. It's some sport among black Democrats. 661 00:36:17,604 --> 00:36:20,684 Speaker 4: It's also live support among like working class union worker 662 00:36:21,084 --> 00:36:23,804 Speaker 4: type of Democrats. Right, it's also sport young people pecularly 663 00:36:23,884 --> 00:36:28,284 Speaker 4: young men. Right. So, well, you know, you still don't 664 00:36:28,284 --> 00:36:31,724 Speaker 4: have a lot of people who have their hat quote 665 00:36:31,804 --> 00:36:35,724 Speaker 4: unquote issues with the environment or LGBT do plus rights, 666 00:36:35,844 --> 00:36:40,724 Speaker 4: or over healthcare or or economics and authority. Right, and 667 00:36:40,964 --> 00:36:45,244 Speaker 4: like when do you say, oh, let's focus on this 668 00:36:45,364 --> 00:36:48,844 Speaker 4: one issue. Well, the other groups you're really upset, right, 669 00:36:48,924 --> 00:36:53,364 Speaker 4: and they'll say, my issue is a matter of existential importance. 670 00:36:53,404 --> 00:36:56,444 Speaker 4: There's with called special pleading, right, It's like very hard 671 00:36:56,604 --> 00:36:59,484 Speaker 4: to like have you know, who gets to pick and 672 00:36:59,564 --> 00:37:04,284 Speaker 4: choose what issues we prioritize and so like have seffy 673 00:37:04,404 --> 00:37:08,644 Speaker 4: amorphous and it's project cussures, Like ambiguity is okay, you 674 00:37:08,724 --> 00:37:11,244 Speaker 4: can be yeah, absolutely USU on your paper, the better. 675 00:37:11,284 --> 00:37:12,684 Speaker 4: I'm like, it seems kind of weird, right, but I 676 00:37:12,764 --> 00:37:15,284 Speaker 4: was pretty good at being optimizing for intiguity. 677 00:37:16,764 --> 00:37:21,764 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not surprised, and I'm surprised, but no. 678 00:37:21,924 --> 00:37:24,124 Speaker 2: I actually think that you just made a really important point, 679 00:37:24,204 --> 00:37:27,724 Speaker 2: which is that you know this also having a protest 680 00:37:27,804 --> 00:37:30,644 Speaker 2: that's like the no King's protest unites people right as 681 00:37:30,684 --> 00:37:33,724 Speaker 2: opposed to feel having people feel like they're left out, 682 00:37:33,804 --> 00:37:36,684 Speaker 2: Like this is not my protest, this is everyone's protest. 683 00:37:36,884 --> 00:37:41,084 Speaker 2: This is like uniting on the absolute highest level issue. 684 00:37:41,564 --> 00:37:44,684 Speaker 2: We believe in our democracy and we want to preserve it. 685 00:37:45,044 --> 00:37:47,724 Speaker 2: Because if you think about kind of the psychology of 686 00:37:48,524 --> 00:37:52,644 Speaker 2: in groups and out groups, right, we are very good 687 00:37:52,684 --> 00:37:55,204 Speaker 2: at forming in groups and out groups based on anything, right, 688 00:37:55,324 --> 00:37:58,644 Speaker 2: almost almost immediately, but we're also very good at unifying 689 00:37:58,964 --> 00:38:02,004 Speaker 2: when you can actually kind of get a bigger issue 690 00:38:02,124 --> 00:38:06,724 Speaker 2: that focuses on commonalities as opposed to divisions. And so 691 00:38:06,844 --> 00:38:09,684 Speaker 2: I think that's something like a No King's protest test 692 00:38:09,964 --> 00:38:14,004 Speaker 2: did a really good job of actually tapping into that 693 00:38:14,204 --> 00:38:18,004 Speaker 2: element of psychology right on a high level, Like let's 694 00:38:18,044 --> 00:38:22,244 Speaker 2: put our differences aside. Right, let's put aside whether like 695 00:38:22,364 --> 00:38:25,604 Speaker 2: who we are and what to us is the existential issue, 696 00:38:25,964 --> 00:38:28,364 Speaker 2: and how we feel about you know, all of these 697 00:38:28,404 --> 00:38:30,884 Speaker 2: different people and all of these different policies, and instead 698 00:38:30,924 --> 00:38:33,644 Speaker 2: let's focus on one thing, Like, let's we believe in America. 699 00:38:33,804 --> 00:38:36,844 Speaker 2: We believe in democracy. We want to preserve this thing 700 00:38:37,324 --> 00:38:40,324 Speaker 2: that the country was founded on. And I think that's 701 00:38:40,364 --> 00:38:44,124 Speaker 2: why the No Kings like, even though not quite right, 702 00:38:44,604 --> 00:38:49,124 Speaker 2: while symbolically it actually helps kind of get to that unification. 703 00:38:49,684 --> 00:38:53,524 Speaker 2: It helps to harken back to a moment in history 704 00:38:53,644 --> 00:38:56,484 Speaker 2: when America was united, right where it didn't matter what 705 00:38:56,604 --> 00:39:00,284 Speaker 2: political party you were, it didn't matter, nothing mattered other 706 00:39:00,404 --> 00:39:02,964 Speaker 2: than that we were fighting against the British and we 707 00:39:03,084 --> 00:39:03,804 Speaker 2: wanted to be free. 708 00:39:03,924 --> 00:39:06,124 Speaker 4: Yeah. Look, I mean this is a problem that you 709 00:39:06,204 --> 00:39:10,044 Speaker 4: have in very online communities. Maybe more of the left 710 00:39:10,084 --> 00:39:12,364 Speaker 4: and the right currently reasons explaining the moment. But like 711 00:39:12,484 --> 00:39:17,604 Speaker 4: the notion of online combat on Twitter, blue Sky, Facebook, whatever, 712 00:39:17,684 --> 00:39:21,204 Speaker 4: et cetera. Right, the notion of dunking on people achieving 713 00:39:21,324 --> 00:39:24,324 Speaker 4: kind of social superiority. Right, I tat the people competing 714 00:39:24,404 --> 00:39:28,244 Speaker 4: for hierarchy to tear down a hierarchy to regain putting 715 00:39:28,244 --> 00:39:31,404 Speaker 4: in the hierarchy themselves. Right, And by definition it's kind 716 00:39:31,444 --> 00:39:36,924 Speaker 4: of it's kind of exclusionary. Right. Republicans do lots of 717 00:39:37,044 --> 00:39:42,444 Speaker 4: that too, they are fortunate enough to have this kind 718 00:39:42,484 --> 00:39:44,284 Speaker 4: of And again I'm not a super lib Right, I'm 719 00:39:44,284 --> 00:39:46,484 Speaker 4: gonna say this in a way that believe is like 720 00:39:47,324 --> 00:39:49,924 Speaker 4: a correct arms like fritigue, but like there is a 721 00:39:50,044 --> 00:39:54,924 Speaker 4: substantial like personality cult around Trump that helps keep Republicans 722 00:39:55,004 --> 00:39:58,364 Speaker 4: united with all types of long term cosmus to the country. Right, 723 00:39:58,404 --> 00:40:03,724 Speaker 4: But like Democrats have no equivalent of right, So they're 724 00:40:03,764 --> 00:40:06,364 Speaker 4: both exclusionary at least people kind of like the blue 725 00:40:06,364 --> 00:40:11,844 Speaker 4: sky types and and leaderless really bad, you know what 726 00:40:11,924 --> 00:40:13,764 Speaker 4: I mean. It's like, we have a great idea, but 727 00:40:13,844 --> 00:40:16,084 Speaker 4: we don't want you. You will while you're participating unless 728 00:40:16,124 --> 00:40:19,044 Speaker 4: you agree with us in all these issues. Right, So 729 00:40:19,244 --> 00:40:22,564 Speaker 4: the rep and inclusivity is is very important. 730 00:40:23,804 --> 00:40:24,004 Speaker 1: Yeah. 731 00:40:24,244 --> 00:40:26,844 Speaker 2: I think that that's a key issue that Democrats have 732 00:40:26,964 --> 00:40:29,444 Speaker 2: been ignoring for too long and that they really really 733 00:40:29,524 --> 00:40:32,364 Speaker 2: need to focus on, which is that it's okay, right, 734 00:40:32,484 --> 00:40:35,444 Speaker 2: shades of gray are okay, and we want to include you, 735 00:40:35,884 --> 00:40:38,604 Speaker 2: even if you don't check all of these boxes for 736 00:40:38,964 --> 00:40:43,284 Speaker 2: kind of what the perfect liberal mind thinks on all 737 00:40:43,364 --> 00:40:46,124 Speaker 2: of these issues, you know, what's in vogue on all 738 00:40:46,204 --> 00:40:48,564 Speaker 2: of these things. I think that the Republicans have actually 739 00:40:48,604 --> 00:40:51,324 Speaker 2: been much much better at including people in the party 740 00:40:51,604 --> 00:40:53,324 Speaker 2: and saying, ah, fine, like you don't believe in that, 741 00:40:53,484 --> 00:40:55,484 Speaker 2: but like, at least you you believe in Trump, you 742 00:40:55,564 --> 00:40:57,684 Speaker 2: believe in this, Like, come on in. And I do 743 00:40:57,804 --> 00:41:02,204 Speaker 2: think that the Democratic establishment has actually been very quick 744 00:41:02,364 --> 00:41:06,404 Speaker 2: to I don't want to say like cancel, but to 745 00:41:06,564 --> 00:41:10,364 Speaker 2: cancel their own right to say, well, like sure you're 746 00:41:10,724 --> 00:41:14,724 Speaker 2: you're a Democrat, but you said something I don't like 747 00:41:14,964 --> 00:41:16,644 Speaker 2: about this issue, and. 748 00:41:16,764 --> 00:41:18,844 Speaker 3: So or to dismiss while groups of voters. 749 00:41:18,884 --> 00:41:22,284 Speaker 4: You know, Hillary Clinton made the thing to mislike deplorable 750 00:41:22,684 --> 00:41:24,964 Speaker 4: comment in twenty sixteen, I guess it was, which is 751 00:41:25,004 --> 00:41:26,964 Speaker 4: saying like, yeah, you know, half of. 752 00:41:28,484 --> 00:41:29,884 Speaker 3: Not all voters, half of Trump. 753 00:41:29,724 --> 00:41:34,684 Speaker 4: Voters are irredeemable racist massaging that's deficerate and half are 754 00:41:35,604 --> 00:41:37,964 Speaker 4: redeemable and a little bit misguided, right, which I think 755 00:41:38,044 --> 00:41:42,164 Speaker 4: is actually probably might be about right is a kind 756 00:41:42,204 --> 00:41:44,844 Speaker 4: of empirical statement, right, is a piece. 757 00:41:44,644 --> 00:41:45,684 Speaker 3: Of political analysis. 758 00:41:45,844 --> 00:41:48,684 Speaker 1: But like as a politician. 759 00:41:48,364 --> 00:41:50,084 Speaker 4: Yeah, and like and the fact is that like you 760 00:41:50,164 --> 00:41:51,964 Speaker 4: never know where you find like this is a big 761 00:41:52,084 --> 00:41:55,764 Speaker 4: kind of you know, people mistake, like the group tendency 762 00:41:55,844 --> 00:41:59,684 Speaker 4: with the marginal pingdomcity right in any group. Sure, and 763 00:41:59,684 --> 00:42:02,964 Speaker 4: I've tried to mathematically model this and like, but I 764 00:42:03,004 --> 00:42:03,964 Speaker 4: won't get into the details. 765 00:42:04,044 --> 00:42:07,284 Speaker 3: Now, in any group, there are always marginal voters, right. 766 00:42:07,404 --> 00:42:08,884 Speaker 4: You know the fact that Trump would like go to 767 00:42:08,924 --> 00:42:11,684 Speaker 4: the Bronx and say, I'm going to do a rally 768 00:42:11,764 --> 00:42:14,084 Speaker 4: among the black community of South Bronx And if you 769 00:42:14,124 --> 00:42:15,524 Speaker 4: look at the details, and a lot of people are 770 00:42:15,524 --> 00:42:17,124 Speaker 4: not black and or not from the South Bronx or 771 00:42:17,124 --> 00:42:19,204 Speaker 4: the bronxiul. Right, But like the fact that he's saying 772 00:42:19,284 --> 00:42:21,244 Speaker 4: I would like to have your vote, right, Like, I 773 00:42:21,284 --> 00:42:25,924 Speaker 4: don't think Democrats do the same thing. Right. They don't 774 00:42:25,964 --> 00:42:29,364 Speaker 4: go and say to evangelical white church and say, you 775 00:42:29,484 --> 00:42:31,884 Speaker 4: know what, you're as rationals you might want to hope 776 00:42:31,884 --> 00:42:33,924 Speaker 4: for Democrats, right, maybe you kind of implicitly do it, 777 00:42:34,004 --> 00:42:36,644 Speaker 4: and like who are on the center left are regarded 778 00:42:36,764 --> 00:42:40,604 Speaker 4: as enemies by the far left and often vice versa, 779 00:42:41,244 --> 00:42:44,004 Speaker 4: and so like it. It's you know, getting out of 780 00:42:44,044 --> 00:42:45,724 Speaker 4: that mentality is essential. 781 00:42:46,324 --> 00:42:49,524 Speaker 2: It's absolutely crucial, and I think, you know, the No 782 00:42:49,724 --> 00:42:52,724 Speaker 2: King's protests is a really good step in that direction. 783 00:42:53,204 --> 00:42:56,844 Speaker 2: So yeah, the main kind of takeaways here are like, 784 00:42:57,364 --> 00:43:00,804 Speaker 2: coordination is important, and signaling is important at kind of 785 00:43:00,964 --> 00:43:04,084 Speaker 2: understanding all of that from a game theory standpoint is important, 786 00:43:04,364 --> 00:43:08,164 Speaker 2: but also inclusivity is important and trying to frame things 787 00:43:08,604 --> 00:43:11,684 Speaker 2: in broad terms where you can actually unite people and 788 00:43:11,764 --> 00:43:15,484 Speaker 2: focus on uniting as opposed to dividing and nitpicking and 789 00:43:15,604 --> 00:43:17,844 Speaker 2: like you know saying oh, well you belong, but you 790 00:43:17,964 --> 00:43:21,004 Speaker 2: really don't. You're not our perfect archetype of who we want. 791 00:43:21,604 --> 00:43:24,284 Speaker 2: That it's really important to think in those types of terms. 792 00:43:24,444 --> 00:43:27,364 Speaker 2: And the third thing that we haven't talked about as much, 793 00:43:27,444 --> 00:43:30,404 Speaker 2: but we have mentioned is like people just don't think 794 00:43:30,604 --> 00:43:33,204 Speaker 2: long term, Like if I don't do something right now, 795 00:43:33,284 --> 00:43:35,364 Speaker 2: the Democratic Party is just going to implode. Like if 796 00:43:35,404 --> 00:43:38,044 Speaker 2: I don't if I don't do this, then these are 797 00:43:38,084 --> 00:43:40,524 Speaker 2: the long term consequences, and you don't think, well, like, 798 00:43:40,644 --> 00:43:43,204 Speaker 2: if I don't speak out now, then there might be 799 00:43:43,284 --> 00:43:46,284 Speaker 2: nothing to speak out, nothing left to speak out for 800 00:43:46,604 --> 00:43:49,564 Speaker 2: in a few years. So I think that thinking more 801 00:43:49,644 --> 00:43:52,964 Speaker 2: long term and long term strategy is very important. I 802 00:43:53,004 --> 00:43:57,324 Speaker 2: don't necessarily endorse Nate, you know, acting everyone over fifty 803 00:43:57,644 --> 00:44:01,844 Speaker 2: fifty seems awfully young, but still I you know, I 804 00:44:01,884 --> 00:44:04,604 Speaker 2: think that what you were the spirit of that that 805 00:44:04,804 --> 00:44:07,884 Speaker 2: we do need kind of a little bit. We do 806 00:44:08,044 --> 00:44:12,084 Speaker 2: need some young blood is fair because we do need 807 00:44:12,124 --> 00:44:14,884 Speaker 2: to be thinking about the future, and people who are 808 00:44:14,924 --> 00:44:18,364 Speaker 2: eighty years old are not the future because they're going 809 00:44:18,444 --> 00:44:20,564 Speaker 2: to be dead in the long term that we're talking about, 810 00:44:21,284 --> 00:44:22,524 Speaker 2: absent the singularity. 811 00:44:25,884 --> 00:44:27,764 Speaker 4: I'm with that maybe we can retreat from the antie 812 00:44:27,844 --> 00:44:30,844 Speaker 4: room to the foyer, before the anti room, before the 813 00:44:30,884 --> 00:44:32,244 Speaker 4: doorway to borg caredism. 814 00:44:35,124 --> 00:44:36,884 Speaker 2: Let us know what you think of the show. Reach 815 00:44:36,924 --> 00:44:40,124 Speaker 2: out to us at Risky Business at pushkin dot FM. 816 00:44:40,884 --> 00:44:43,724 Speaker 2: Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanakova and. 817 00:44:43,884 --> 00:44:46,764 Speaker 5: By me Nate Silver. The show was a Cool production 818 00:44:46,884 --> 00:44:50,484 Speaker 5: of Pushing Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced by 819 00:44:50,564 --> 00:44:55,404 Speaker 5: Isaac Carter. Our associate producer is Sonya gerwit Lydia, Jean Kott, 820 00:44:55,444 --> 00:44:58,604 Speaker 5: and Daphne Chen are our editors, and our executive producer 821 00:44:58,724 --> 00:45:01,524 Speaker 5: is Jacob Goldstein. Mixing by Sarah Bruger. 822 00:45:02,164 --> 00:45:04,364 Speaker 2: If you like the show, please rate and review us 823 00:45:04,404 --> 00:45:07,044 Speaker 2: so other people can find us too, but once again, 824 00:45:07,204 --> 00:45:08,964 Speaker 2: only if you like us. We don't want those bad 825 00:45:09,004 --> 00:45:20,804 Speaker 2: reviews out there. Thanks for tuning in, MHM.