1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: Welcome Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of I 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, are you welcome to 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind? My name is Robert Lamb 4 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,439 Speaker 1: and I'm Joe McCormick, and today we are going to 5 00:00:18,480 --> 00:00:22,319 Speaker 1: be discussing the sacred mountain. Of course, there's not just 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: one sacred mountain. There are many sacred mountains. In fact, 7 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: you know you're probably close to one right now, because 8 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: they're all over the world. We we discussed this a 9 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: little bit in our recent episode about pressure, where we 10 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: were talking about how how the atmosphere gets thinner, of 11 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: course as you go higher up, And one of the 12 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 1: things we started talking about was whether you know whether 13 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: that might have anything to do with the prevalence of 14 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: sacred or holy mountains in religious and cultural beliefs all 15 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,120 Speaker 1: around the world, because once you start looking for them, 16 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: they're everywhere and every continent. I guess, maybe not so 17 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:59,959 Speaker 1: much Antarctica, but every other continent. You know, they're they're 18 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: mountain top monasteries. There are mountains that are believed to 19 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: be homes of the gods. There are mountains that are 20 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: places of worship, mountains that are places of sacrifice, mountains 21 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: that are believed to be forbidden or you know, otherwise 22 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 1: magically you know, barred. Yeah, and they really are in 23 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: just about every culture. So what we wanted to do 24 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: in this pair of episodes for stuff to blow your 25 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: mind is to really get into the idea of the 26 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 1: sacred mountain. So this first episode is really going to 27 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,399 Speaker 1: be more about, first of all, why do we have 28 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: these different feelings about mountains? Why do mountains invoke these 29 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: different ideas and feelings in the human mind. And then 30 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: we're gonna run through some notable examples of sacred mountains. 31 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: I have to really drive home that this will not 32 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: be an exhaustive mention of every sacred mountain tradition. I'm 33 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: sure we're gonna leave off some very good ones, uh, 34 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: some very notable cultural examples. We we just can't cover 35 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: them all, but we'll try and cover uh enough of 36 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: them to give you a nice grounding. And then, of course, 37 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: if you have a favorite sacred mountains that you've visited 38 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: or just read about, uh, you can right into us 39 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: and perhaps we'll share those in the future. Listener a 40 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: male episode. And then that second episode that we're going 41 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: to do about sacred mountains is going to get more 42 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: into the psychology and the neuroscience and how and to 43 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: what extent high altitude UH conditions could contribute to this 44 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: interpretation of the sacred and the holy on mountains and 45 00:02:33,840 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: on the tops of mountains. That's right. And though we 46 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: are going to look all over the world in various 47 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: places today, I think one place I wanted to start 48 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:45,079 Speaker 1: with is the mountain you might be less familiar with 49 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: in Greek religion. Oh yeah, because you're probably instantly thinking, well, 50 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 1: Mount Olympus, that's where the gods are, That's where they're 51 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: plotting all of their nefarious ends. But what about Mount 52 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: like Kon, home of holy Werewolf for the not so 53 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: the unholy werewolf, the sanctuary of Zeus, the birthplace of Zeus, 54 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:12,239 Speaker 1: and the altar of blood sacrifice. Yeah, it invokes a 55 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: number of the different ideas we're gonna be discussing here. 56 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 1: So we wanted to read just a little bit from 57 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:20,720 Speaker 1: Pausanias's a historian. He wrote description of Greece UH. And 58 00:03:20,800 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: this is from the second century CE. And this is 59 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: like section eight. This is another one of those old 60 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: texts you can find in full translated online that we're 61 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: just gonna read a couple of paragraphs from it okay. 62 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,480 Speaker 1: On the highest point of the mountain is a mound 63 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: of earth forming an altar of Zeus like Chius, and 64 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: from it most of the Peloponnesus can be seen. Before 65 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 1: the altar on the east stand two pillars on which 66 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: there were of old gilded eagles. On this altar they 67 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: sacrifice in secret to like He and Zeus, I was 68 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: reluctant to pry into the details of the sacrifice. Let 69 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: them be as they are, and we're from the beginning. 70 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: On the east side of the mountain there is a 71 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: sanctuary of Apollo, surnamed Parhassian. They also give him the 72 00:04:08,320 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: name Pythian. They hold every year a festival in honor 73 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: of the god and sacrifice in the market place a 74 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 1: boar to Apollo helper, And after the sacrifice here they 75 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: at once carry the victim to the sanctuary of Parhassian 76 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: Apollo in procession to the music of the flute. Cutting 77 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: out the thigh bones, they burn them and also consume 78 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 1: the meat of the victim on the spot. So here 79 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: we get a description of like sacrifices of a boar. 80 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: Though there have been rumors for a long time that 81 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: human sacrifice was something that happened, you know, that you 82 00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: would kill humans and offer them up to like he 83 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: and Zeus on mount like Us, so we should at 84 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,599 Speaker 1: least situate this. They mentioned that you could see the 85 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 1: whole Peloponnese, but mountain like Kon now is it is 86 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: a mountain in the region of Arcadia, which is long 87 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: believed to be sort of the symbol or paragon of beautiful, 88 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:03,679 Speaker 1: unspoiled wilderness. And that's down in the Peloponnese. And Zeus, 89 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: like Chaius, is essentially wolf Zeus is. Yeah, it's like 90 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: his his wolf power ranger form. Yeah, so all the 91 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: everything you expect from from Zeus, king of the gods, 92 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: except also with with lupine properties. And there are a 93 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: lot of stories about sort of the history of this 94 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 1: mountain and the name like mountain like Caon, and some 95 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: tellings is said to be the birthplace or the home 96 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 1: of Zeus, but also it's named for king like Heon 97 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:33,440 Speaker 1: of Arcadia, who was, of course in some myths, foolish 98 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: enough to mess with the gods of the Greek pantheon. 99 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: To mess with always a mistake. Yeah. So, according to 100 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: Ovid's telling in the Metamorphosis, so the King tried to 101 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: trick Zeus into eating human flesh, and Zeus retaliated by 102 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,159 Speaker 1: turning him into a wolf, or turning him into a 103 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: were wolf. And I want to read this part of 104 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 1: the poem as told in Ovid's Metamorphosis, as translated by 105 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: Garth and Dryden. Okay, let's divide it, Robert, you do 106 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: this first section. Here, this dire experiment. He chose to 107 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: prove if I were mortal or undoubted Jove. But first 108 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: he had resolved to taste my power not long before, 109 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: but in a luckless hour, some legates sent from the 110 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: Molassian state. We're on a peaceful errand come to treat 111 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: of these. He murders one. He boils the flesh and 112 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: lays the mangled morsels in a dish. Some part he roasts, 113 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: then serves it up so dressed, and bids me welcome 114 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: to this humane feast. Okay, So the king captures some dudes, 115 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: burns them, and then offers them up to Zeus like here, 116 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 1: try it, uh, presuming I think to to trick Zeus 117 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: into eating this human flesh. And Zeus continues, moved with 118 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: disdain the table I are turned and with the avenging 119 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: flames the palace burned. The tyrant, in a fright for shelter, 120 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: gains the neighboring fields and scours along the plains, howling. 121 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: He fled and fain. He would have spoke, but human voice, 122 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 1: his brutal tongue forsook about his lips. The gathered foam 123 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 1: he churns and breathing slaughters still with rage. He burns, 124 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 1: but on the bleeding flock, his fury turns. His mantle, 125 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: now his hide with rugged hairs, cleaves to his back, 126 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: a famished face, he bears his arms, descend his shoulders, 127 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: slink away to multiply his legs for chase of prey. 128 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: He grows a wolf. His hoary nous remains, and the 129 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: same rage and other members reiins. His eyes still sparkle 130 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: in a narrower space, his jaws retained the grin and 131 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: violence of his face, and according to some, if I 132 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: remember correctly, this is this is kind of the birth 133 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: of the werewolf. Oh yeah, yeah, this is This is 134 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 1: a one off, if not the earliest accounts you'll find 135 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: of of of someone turning into a lupine form. I 136 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: don't remember if we discussed this story the episode we 137 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: did about the first monster about like the idea where 138 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: what was the origin of beliefs in beings embodying both 139 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: human and animal forms mixed together. We might have mentioned this, 140 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: but of course apart from this myth, which I don't 141 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: think this is a historical record in any case of 142 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: werewolf transformation. Uh. The Despite the story of King like 143 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,920 Speaker 1: Kean and all this, the mountain like An was in 144 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: you know, without a doubt, a holy site in some 145 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: versions of Greek religion, since it was sort of the 146 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 1: home birthplace of Zeus, and it was also a place 147 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: where blood sacrifices and burnt offerings to Zeus were brought. 148 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 1: And it's long been known that animals were sacrificed and 149 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: burned to Zeus here, but recently there's been some there 150 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: have been some chilling discoveries. Archaeologists at the Sanctuary of 151 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 1: Zeus have been excavating a giant ancient mound of ash 152 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 1: about a hundred feet or about thirty meters wide that 153 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: was the site of these animal sacrifices, mostly sheep go 154 00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 1: it's beginning around the sixteenth century BC, so going way back, 155 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,600 Speaker 1: and in two sixteen it was announced that they had 156 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,720 Speaker 1: found human remains here that they found the skeleton of 157 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 1: an adolescent male from what appears to be I think 158 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: it's not positive, but it really looks like this was 159 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: a human sacrifice from around the eleventh century b c um. 160 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 1: And of course this wouldn't be the only case where 161 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: we know of human sacrifice likely taking place up on 162 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: a mountain, like I think about the you know, going 163 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: to the to South America, the children of Yuyiko or Yuyayako, right, 164 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: and in the late nineties at some point they discovered 165 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 1: three inca child mummies there that we're up on the 166 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: summit of the mountain. Is not known for sure what 167 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: that is, but it appears to be a form of 168 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: human sacrifice that was taking showing the religious significance of 169 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 1: the mountain there too. Interesting. So I think this is 170 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,320 Speaker 1: a great example to start with here. Uh. It embodies 171 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: a number of different things here pilgrimage. Uh, just that 172 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: the view mentioning just how much you can see from 173 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: up there, and the idea too that this puts you 174 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: put the place to put you in closer contact with 175 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: the divine, with the gods. But now I'd like to 176 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: talk just a little bit about the importance of geography 177 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 1: and and naturally occurring forms as metaphors. We've talked about 178 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 1: this with a get bit on the show before, but 179 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: you know, you can find root, branch, tree, river iconography 180 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: all over the place. I think back to our episode 181 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: and the Trident as well, which, according to some theories, 182 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: was originally based on a fig leaf. You know it. 183 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 1: Ancient people turned to natural forms as a way of 184 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 1: thinking about the world and kind of externalizing thought. Uh 185 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: And and you see that in in in pretty in 186 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,440 Speaker 1: every human tradition. So it should come as no surprise 187 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 1: that mountains speak to us as well. After all, a 188 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:57,199 Speaker 1: sacred mountain is just one part of an overall sacred geography. 189 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: And I think that's important to note. Like ancient people, 190 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: they wouldn't have thought like, oh, yeah, this is just 191 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: land over here, and that's the lake, that's a river, 192 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,719 Speaker 1: and oh this mountain, that place is holy, that's where 193 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: the gods live. Uh. No, the oceans, the mountains, the 194 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,960 Speaker 1: earth itself, the rivers, all of it comes into play 195 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 1: for when you're considering a sacred view of the world 196 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:21,000 Speaker 1: or of the universe. Yeah, you know, I kind of 197 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 1: think though that, um, we might be kind of unusual 198 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 1: as far as like people in history go. Given that 199 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: most of you know most of us, and the people 200 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: listening to the show, probably most of their exposure to 201 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 1: religion is like to monotheisms like Christianity, Judaism and Islam, 202 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 1: which I would say, as far as religions go, have 203 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: unusually low investments in geography and and the land, because 204 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 1: if you go to ancient pagan religions or indigenous religions 205 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 1: of of of Europe and Africa and Asia and in 206 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: the America's, you find all kinds of like stories about 207 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: how the land itself was created, and like like off 208 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: the very common stories that the land and the features 209 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 1: of the land were features of monsters that were slain 210 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: by or the features of a body of a god 211 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: that died long ago, or they have particular connections to 212 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,320 Speaker 1: holy sites that are geographically unique and significant for being unique. 213 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess Christianity, Islam, and Judaism have geographical 214 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: locations that are holy, but that's mainly for like what 215 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: is believed to be their historical role, right events that 216 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 1: took place there uh structures that either were there, are 217 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: or are still there in some form or another, And 218 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:41,560 Speaker 1: that's certainly a part of it as well discuss, but 219 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: there are various other ways to to look at at 220 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 1: sacred mountains and sacred geography and why those places are 221 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: considered sacred. So just I think one important thing to 222 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: just keep in mind is something that most of us 223 00:12:54,520 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: can relate to, and that is just the idea of 224 00:12:56,880 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: a mountain or an impressive photo of one will likely 225 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: summon feelings of grandeur or intimidation, adventure, peace effort, seclusion, 226 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: wonder or indeed connection to the heavens. Um. I mean 227 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: this is why you see, uh, you know, posters and 228 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: images and paintings of mountains. I mean they are they're 229 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: beautiful about how and we travel to the mountains and 230 00:13:19,320 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: then we stand, uh, either atop the mountain or certainly 231 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: at a nice vista, and we we take it all 232 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: in and it it summons feelings, Its summons emotions. It 233 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 1: takes us outside of ourselves. EO. Wilson talks about this 234 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 1: a little bit when he's discussing the biophilia hypothesis, and 235 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: I think this is in the context of him generally 236 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: talking about evolutionary explanations for our aesthetic preferences, like why 237 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: is it so often that the pictures we find beautiful 238 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: include vistas from a high point of view, you know, 239 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 1: being able to look down over a landscape, and you 240 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 1: offer some possible evolutionary explanations for that. You know, maybe 241 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: this is like a more defendable point where you can 242 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: see things coming towards you. But yeah, it's hard to 243 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 1: deny that. When I see a mountain. I don't know 244 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 1: if everybody feels this way as much as I do. 245 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: When I see a mountain, I want to go up it. 246 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: I've never done mountain climbing. I've done hiking and stuff, 247 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: but I do want to go up to the top 248 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:17,320 Speaker 1: of the highest point and look down well see. And 249 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: I think you and I are different in this regard. 250 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: Uh You've talked before on the show about how you 251 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: have no problem like walking up to the edge of 252 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,240 Speaker 1: the cliff. I'm a little more reluctant to do that. 253 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: But still, if I see like a crazy you know, 254 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:34,720 Speaker 1: cliff or peak, or or images of people mountain climbing, 255 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: I do put myself imagine myself up there and often 256 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: terrify myself with the with the prospect. Uh So I 257 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: feel like that kind of like mental transportation is inevitable. 258 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 1: But a couple of other things about just how we 259 00:14:49,440 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: think about mountains a common trope in various mythologies, and 260 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: we'll touch on some specific examples here in a bit. 261 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: Are that the mountain, or at least the mountain peak 262 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: on some level, connects Earth to the sky. So it 263 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: might be like a sky pillar situation where the mountain 264 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: is holding up the cosmos, holding up the heavens, holding 265 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: up the sky, or it is in some way an 266 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: umbilical or a ladder and uh. Or that the mountain 267 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 1: itself serves as a you know, an axis Monday, the 268 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: central tent pole of a sacred cosmos, a stairway to heaven, 269 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:28,160 Speaker 1: if you will. Well, that's really interesting because especially it 270 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,880 Speaker 1: pairs with older ways of thinking about the sky. You know, 271 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: it's not all that uncommon for ancient peoples to have 272 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: conceived of the sky as a place with solid ground 273 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: that you could walk around in, you know, like a firmament. 274 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: There's a dome over the earth and uh. And so 275 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: you might wonder, well, what does something hold up the dome. 276 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: If there's solid ground up there that the gods can 277 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: walk around in, there must be something holding it up. 278 00:15:51,920 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: And so you can imagine, well, maybe a mountain holds 279 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: it up. That's the obvious answer. In fact. Yeah, so 280 00:15:56,960 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 1: you can see where this this complex weave emerges of 281 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: an attempt to understand what is what your visit, what 282 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: you're actually observing, what is the objective reality? And then 283 00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: also these mythic ideas of like what does about about 284 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: structure and uh and and center and the importance of 285 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: place and identity. There's also from a practical since the 286 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: fact that to stand atop a great height is to 287 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: gain a crucial vantage point. In some cases that could 288 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 1: be purely strategic. Just this is the E. O. Wilson thing. Yeah, 289 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: you can see the movements of of herd animals, you 290 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: can see the movements of enemy troops, etcetera. But I 291 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,760 Speaker 1: also wonder if it could be something a little more existential. 292 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 1: I wonder if if such heights could be considered possibly 293 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: uh capable of invoking something like the overview effect that 294 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: proposed a state of mind or you know, a state 295 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 1: of euphoric interconnectedness that ensues when one sees the planet 296 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: Earth from outer space. It's not quite the same, certainly, 297 00:16:57,160 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: but I'm wondering if perhaps that affects scales down to 298 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: some extent yeah, I can absolutely see that. So some 299 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: astronauts report they look out the window of the International 300 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 1: Space Station or of their you know, their vehicle, and 301 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:12,119 Speaker 1: they see the Earth from space, and suddenly it just 302 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: comes into sharp focus that that are, you know, petty 303 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,760 Speaker 1: squabbles are exactly that they're petty. You know that they 304 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,920 Speaker 1: vanish in the face of the fact that we're all 305 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: trapped on this ball together, and and it makes human 306 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,440 Speaker 1: concerns look small and makes people feel a strong sense 307 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: of sort of the common interest of all humanity and 308 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:35,120 Speaker 1: the connectedness of all of our concerns, because the fate 309 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 1: of the Earth is the fate of all of us. 310 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: And yeah, I can absolutely see that happening. I mean, so, 311 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,280 Speaker 1: imagine you normally you live in a small village or 312 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:45,479 Speaker 1: a city where you are. You know, you you've got 313 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: your day to day concerns, you're angry with your neighbor, 314 00:17:48,240 --> 00:17:51,040 Speaker 1: or you've got your politics that you're doing, if you're 315 00:17:51,040 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: like a priest or something, and then you go up 316 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: on a mountain and then you look down at the 317 00:17:56,000 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 1: place where you come from the village or the city 318 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,200 Speaker 1: or the farms, and suddenly everything looks any This basic 319 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: shift in visual and optical perspective could very well trigger 320 00:18:05,560 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 1: a kind of the same kind of mental shift that 321 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 1: people experience when they go into space. Yeah. Absolutely, I was. 322 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: I was doing a little reading about about some of 323 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: these ideas, and it ran across an excellent little paper 324 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: by Edwin Burne Bomb titled in Sacred Mountains Themes and Teachings, 325 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: And this is from Mountain Research and Development twenty six 326 00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 1: And the author does a great job of just which 327 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: is laying out some basics. For instance, lays out three 328 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 1: basic ways that mountains are considered sacred uh. And and 329 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 1: we can as I lay these out, you can certainly 330 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,359 Speaker 1: think two examples we've discussed already, and I think these 331 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: will also be useful in considering examples we discussed in 332 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 1: the rest of the podcast. So burn Bomb says, first, 333 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: specific peaks are singled out as places of sanctity. Uh. 334 00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: They're supported by myths and practices such as pilgrimages, meditation, 335 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,720 Speaker 1: and even sacrifice. Number two, they may contain sacred sites 336 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: or objects like temple or shrines, or even something more 337 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: natural like a spring. And then number three, the natural 338 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 1: setting itself awakens a sense of wonder and awe. All 339 00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: three of these tend to work together, burn Bomb says 340 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: on an individual's experience with the sacredness of a mountain. Furthermore, 341 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: Burned Bomb defined ten themes frequently seen in sacred mountains. 342 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: So they are roughly height, center, power, God or God. 343 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 1: Either the mountains of God itself where it is the 344 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: home of God's The mountain is a place of worship. 345 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: The mountain is a paradise or a garden. Um is 346 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: a place where the ancestors of the dead may reside, 347 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: a source of cultural identity, a source of healing, or 348 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,399 Speaker 1: or just a source of water, which makes sense because 349 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 1: I mean goes downhill exactly, and also as a place 350 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: of renewal. So these are again ten broad themes that 351 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: burn Bomb identifies in the identity and characterization of sacred mountains. 352 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,320 Speaker 1: All right, well, we can look for these and examples 353 00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,360 Speaker 1: of mountains that we talk about. So maybe I'll offer 354 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,399 Speaker 1: up one example of a mountain to think about, and 355 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: then maybe after that take a break and then look 356 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: at some others. Okay, but this first one is one 357 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: I mentioned in the episode where we talked about pressure, 358 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: because I think it's a commonly cited example of a 359 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: very important holy mountain that's holy in multiple religions, not 360 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: just one. Uh. And this would be the peak it's 361 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:27,960 Speaker 1: it's a peak in the Himalaya as known as Mount 362 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 1: Kailash or Mount Kailasa uh. And so this is a 363 00:20:31,960 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 1: holy mountain in multiple religions. In Hinduism, this mountain is 364 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: believed to be the abode of Lord Shiva, the destroyer 365 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 1: of evil, and of his wife Parvadi, who together sit 366 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 1: in meditation at the summit of the mountain. And so 367 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: the site of Mount Kailash is a destination of pilgrimage 368 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 1: for many Hindus who climb fifteen thousand feet or about 369 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,720 Speaker 1: four point six kilometers up this ascent path to the 370 00:20:56,760 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 1: base of the mountain, but do not climb it's some it. 371 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:04,360 Speaker 1: In fact, climbing the sacred summit is forbidden, and though 372 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: while we can't know for sure, it's often said that 373 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: the summit has never been climbed by a human uh. 374 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: It's instead, it's believed virtuous for pilgrims to walk in 375 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: a circle around the base of the mountain, but not 376 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: go up to the summit. And this, of course is 377 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 1: not just a holy side for Hindus. As I was saying, 378 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: but it's also holy for Buddhists, for Jaynes and for 379 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 1: people of the indigenous religion of Tibet known as Bone Yes, 380 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: a very ancient animist religion. Yeah. Now, if you look 381 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: at what a picture of Mount Kailosh looks like from below, 382 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,239 Speaker 1: I mean I would say, obviously I already know this 383 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,400 Speaker 1: about it when I've seen pictures of it. But it's 384 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: not hard to see how a person looking up at 385 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: this peak would begin to think that something powerful and 386 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: holy and forbidden resided there. It does not look welcoming 387 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: to assent like it. It doesn't look easy to climb, 388 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: and I think there's something powerful about that to to 389 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: like see a ace and think, especially today's day and age, 390 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: to think, I wonder if people have ever been on 391 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: that spot, as a person ever stood there, and if 392 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:12,040 Speaker 1: the answer is even possibly no, there is something kind 393 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,680 Speaker 1: of sacred about that. Like we've we've pretty much screwed 394 00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 1: everything else up, but that one peak is is pristine. 395 00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: You will not find a slim gym wrapper there. Yeah, 396 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,359 Speaker 1: and that does seem important, right. I Mean part of 397 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 1: the issue is anytime there's a mountain that people say 398 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: has not been climbed, obviously people are gonna want to 399 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 1: climb it. So I've been reading you know, there's political 400 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 1: controversy over this. It's like I think there was one 401 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: point I read a team of Spanish mountain climbers who 402 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: announced that they were going to climb the mountain. But 403 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: it's a it's a holy site, you're not supposed to 404 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: climb it, even though I think the team they were 405 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 1: they were not Hindus, so they didn't share this belief 406 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: about the religious forbiddenness of the mountaintop. But the government 407 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: authorities prevented them from climbing the mountain. I think just 408 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: because they wanted to avoid this leading to to unrest, 409 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: or just too I guess, being seen as an insult 410 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: to to people who believe that the mountain should not 411 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: be climbed. I mean, I do tend to wonder if 412 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: people just started climbing a mountain like this all the time, 413 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: would it kind of break the spell of this story? 414 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: Would it make people? Would it make the mountains seem 415 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 1: less holy? I don't know. That's something to consider, And 416 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: after we come back from this next break, uh, we're 417 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 1: going to take that consideration into specific examples. Uh, not 418 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: only with actual mountains and some of the sacred ideas 419 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: about them. But then we'll also be looking at some 420 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,479 Speaker 1: some mythological and even fictional mountains, which I guess are 421 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: kind of inherently safe from from mountain climbers laundering where 422 00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:45,240 Speaker 1: they're not supposed to be. Thank thank Alright, we're back. 423 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: So we've been talking about holy mountains in religious beliefs 424 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 1: and myths around the world. Have you got another example 425 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: you wanted to talk about, Robert, Oh, yeah, here here 426 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: a couple of good ones. I think, one of course 427 00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 1: is Mountain Miru. This is a great example of a 428 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: mythical holy mountain, one that serves as a world access 429 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:07,360 Speaker 1: in Hindu, Jain Buddhist cosmology, for instance, in Tibetan Mandala's 430 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,680 Speaker 1: uh uh these really you know, complex and important works 431 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: of art that are you know, all about conveying visually 432 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 1: conveying complex um theological ideas. Uh. You'll see Mountain Mirus 433 00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:24,080 Speaker 1: sometimes situated as the center of things, surrounded by seven oceans, 434 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: seven concentric mountain ranges, and beyond these ranges another ocean 435 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 1: and islands. It's it's all an unreal geography, you know, 436 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: and in that a very sacred and symbolic geography. A 437 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: spatial representation of a rich and complex cosmology. Uh. In 438 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: in a similar frame of mind. And this is a 439 00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: one that's that's completely fictional. It's not a part of 440 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: anybody's mythology. But if you're familiar with the Dante's Divine Comedy, 441 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 1: we of course have the three books right where we 442 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:59,359 Speaker 1: begin with the Inferno, we have an eventually in the 443 00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:03,679 Speaker 1: book three wind up in paradise. But to get there, uh, 444 00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: Dante and Virgil have to scale the amount of purgatory. 445 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 1: Oh uh, the the the the earthly purgatory. So this 446 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: is a mountain that is uh, that extends from Earth 447 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,439 Speaker 1: to the threshold of heaven. And at the very top 448 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,000 Speaker 1: of the mountain, at the very peak, that's where the 449 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,439 Speaker 1: earthly paradise is located, the Eden of the of the 450 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 1: Old Testament in Christian traditions. Okay, so this does uh, 451 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 1: this makes more sense also if you know something about 452 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,639 Speaker 1: like medieval Catholic theology, right, which which had this belief 453 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,239 Speaker 1: in the idea of purgatory where it wasn't hell. You know, 454 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: you weren't condemned there forever, but you were basically a 455 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: good Christian, but you did some sins that were not 456 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: atoned for, and so you have to go to purgatory 457 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:51,400 Speaker 1: before you can get to heaven. And so you spend 458 00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,679 Speaker 1: some time there in you know, it's not hell, but 459 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 1: it's not nice. It's not pleasant, uh, And you're stuck 460 00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: there until you essentially serve out your sentence, you're purified 461 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 1: of your sin, and then you can be admitted into heaven. Right. 462 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:11,399 Speaker 1: It is a literary symbolic representation of penitent Christian life. Um. Again, 463 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,000 Speaker 1: no one holds that the amount of Purgatory is a 464 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: real place. They did very much a part of the 465 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: literature here, but it does serve as kind of a 466 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: nice example of some of the same ideas of mythological 467 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 1: holy mountains. Well, one thing I do like about the 468 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: idea of of holy mountains, including Purgatory, actually the amount 469 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 1: of Purgatory, is that they do seem like an indication 470 00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 1: of older versions of religion that were more that could 471 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 1: be situated on earth, because there were lots of parts 472 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: of Earth that we didn't know about, right, you know, 473 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 1: so like Dante could say, well, yes, you can enter 474 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: Hell through a cave here and you go down, then 475 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: you can go up the mountain of Purgatory and that's 476 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 1: over here, and that would be okay, because you know, 477 00:26:58,080 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: there was lots of the earth that he didn't know 478 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 1: what was there. You could just assume it's somewhere undiscovered. Now, 479 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,360 Speaker 1: there of course plenty of actual mountains that are considered sacred, 480 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,400 Speaker 1: either by association with a mythical world mountain. You see 481 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: that from time to time, where there's a mythological mountain 482 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: and then it uh a nearby mountain becomes associated with 483 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 1: the same zi had same ideas through traditions, and then 484 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,640 Speaker 1: if we if we as we have explored in past episodes, 485 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 1: there's also the added dimensions of various pyramids and zigarats 486 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,919 Speaker 1: that have been constructed as a sort of artificial mountain, 487 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: allowing the people who built them to participate in mountaintops 488 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: sacred rights and observances in some cases in regions where 489 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:43,479 Speaker 1: such peaks are are not readily available. Well, yeah, and 490 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 1: just like in the case so say like in Mount Kailash, 491 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,640 Speaker 1: where it is believed that Lord Shiva and Parvati are 492 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: dwell on top of the mountain. The ziggurat I think 493 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,720 Speaker 1: is interpreted by many modern scholars to have been thought 494 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 1: to be a home of the gods by the people 495 00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: who use them, so like that maybe the priests would 496 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: go up there and do some kind of right. But 497 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: it was also believed that the god would come down 498 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,479 Speaker 1: and like sleep the night on the top of the ziggurat, 499 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 1: or might may even live there for some period. Absolutely, uh, 500 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: you know, and another quick thing I want to mention, 501 00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,919 Speaker 1: and looking at a various mountain myths, I noticed that, 502 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,879 Speaker 1: you know, primordial beings often form mountains out of the soil, 503 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: or as we mentioned earlier, they they their bodies or 504 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: the bodies of loved ones become the mountains. And you know, 505 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 1: it's it's easy to sort of take the formation of 506 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,280 Speaker 1: mountains for granted with even just sort of a you know, um, 507 00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: a casual understanding of say plectictonics and so forth, basically, 508 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: you know, just a surface level understanding of geology. But 509 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: imagine trying to understand what a mountain was if you 510 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: really had no idea about any of these things. I mean, 511 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: unless you we're witnessed to volcanic eruption, Um, you know 512 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,400 Speaker 1: there there there are no mountain for Mayan processes that 513 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: are going to be readily observable. And so it makes 514 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: as much sense of anything to turn to some of 515 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:12,479 Speaker 1: these uh, these these purely mythological and cosmic explanations from 516 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: why they are there. Well, you can get even weirder 517 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: with it. I mean, one of my favorite examples is 518 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: the coolest place I've ever been, the Mount Stephen Trilobyte 519 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: beds up in hin Mount Stephen, British Columbia, which is 520 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: part of the Burgess Shale formation that I went to 521 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,080 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. And so you try to 522 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,959 Speaker 1: imagine that, not having a any kind of scientific understanding, 523 00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: you go up a mountain and then up near the 524 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: top there's just like a cliff where pieces of rock 525 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: or shearing off and they've got the imprints of strange 526 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: undersea monsters on them. And it's like you'd have no 527 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: idea of figuring out how so this once was sedimentary 528 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: rock at the bottom of an ocean and it has 529 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,960 Speaker 1: been pushed up and made into a mountain over hundreds 530 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: of millions of years. Yeah, even knowing in the geological 531 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: geological processes in in in place here, it's still amazing 532 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: to behold and well beyond the scope of human lifetime 533 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 1: and and and really sort of natural human perception. Absolutely, 534 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: so just wanna run through some more examples here of 535 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: holy mountains that can kind of give a nice overview 536 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,440 Speaker 1: of some of these different different ideas. I was reading 537 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 1: about the denhe Bane, the Navajo creation myth um, complete 538 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: with the creation and recreation of the sacred mountains across 539 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: five worlds. So that involves the idea that four other 540 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: worlds preceded the one that we live in now. And 541 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 1: this is an idea that pops up in various meso 542 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: American and Native American religions. For the Aztecs, uh kawata 543 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: Peck served as the mythical sacred mountain the serpent mountain 544 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: Uh in their mythical homeland of Asplan, and according to 545 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 1: Nicoletta mastry On thought Co, the Great Temple of tnock 546 00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: Alan is thought to be a replica of this holy mountain. 547 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: So another example of recreating the holy mountain, an artificial 548 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: holy mountain created uh, you know, in the likeness of 549 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: a mythological form. In Norse mythology, human Jorg is the 550 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 1: mountain where the by frost connects Asgard and mid Guard Uh. 551 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: This is home of the god him Doll. And then 552 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: there's also perhaps that the less famous near Borg and 553 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 1: this is the hiding place of the meat of poetry. 554 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: Mount Fuji is important in Japanese culture. It represents, according 555 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: to burn Bomb quote quest for beauty and simplicity that 556 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,800 Speaker 1: lies at the heart of Japanese culture. And I think, yeah, 557 00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: Mount Fuji is is one of these examples that like 558 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: it's it's a cultural it's part of its cultural pride, 559 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: like it is a part of the natural geography that 560 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: people can take pride in and find a sense of 561 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: identity in. You know, one thing I think every time 562 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: I see an image of Mount Fuji is it just 563 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: looks very visually perfect, is very like gracefully sloped and symmetrical, 564 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: like kind of like it is a work of art. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. 565 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: If you go to Tanzania, you'll find Mount Kilimanjaro, and 566 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: some of the the Chaga people of of that region, 567 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: their myths and beliefs about the dormant volcano hold that 568 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: it contains gateways to the spirit world. In Chinese mythology, 569 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: though there are a few different holy mountains of note. 570 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: One is Mount Boujeo or BuJo Shan, and it's associated 571 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,440 Speaker 1: with the Pamir Mountains in Central Asia, and it's one 572 00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: of the sky pillars holding up the heavens. And again 573 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: this is a mountain trope found in various cultures. Uh. 574 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: There's a myth in which it was damaged by the 575 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 1: water god gong Gong in his ancient battle for supremacy 576 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: against the Yellow Emperor, and then after the Yellow emperors victory, 577 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,760 Speaker 1: the goddess Nuah had to repair the damage. But in 578 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 1: Chinese myth uh the the the Kuon Loon mountain is 579 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:07,520 Speaker 1: perhaps the most important, as described in the excellent Handbook 580 00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: of Chinese Mythology by yang On Turner. Uh. It is 581 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,000 Speaker 1: not only a key pillar of the sky but also 582 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: on abode of gods and immortals. And there are really 583 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: a lot of descriptions of it, and it's various fountains, 584 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 1: magical trees, magical animals. It's really an entire sacred ecology 585 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 1: unto itself. And if there's a particular magical plant, magical item, 586 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: or sacred water that you wish to obtain, uh, then 587 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 1: uh Kun Loon is the place you'll find it. Yeah, 588 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: it's it's it's everything it includes Uh. It holds, for instance, 589 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,240 Speaker 1: the Sweet Spring and Emerald Lake, the Pearl tree, the 590 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: Jade tree, the Tree of Immortality, Sinnabar River which prevents 591 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: death if you drink it. Uh, the weak river where 592 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,040 Speaker 1: nothing floats. Um. So it has has all the magical 593 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,400 Speaker 1: items and just scaling it and uh and scaling to 594 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 1: the appropriate it. Terrace on the mountain, according to some traditions, 595 00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: means that you can take on divine powers yourself over 596 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 1: natural forces, perhaps acquire immortality, or even take on spirit 597 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: status yourself again, provided you know where to climb and 598 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: you can survive the dangers. Various important mythic events are 599 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: sometimes set on the mountain, including the goddess Nua's marriage 600 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: to her brother and the subsequent population of the world. 601 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: So again that's just that's just a few examples. There's 602 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: so many other sacred mountains um that that we didn't 603 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:36,880 Speaker 1: either didn't have time to include or just didn't have 604 00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: time to research. But again, if we left one out 605 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 1: that you're particularly fond of or you've visited yourself, certainly 606 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: right into us. Well. And these I would point out 607 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:52,680 Speaker 1: are just the sacred mountains that have accumulated, like myths 608 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,759 Speaker 1: with staying power over the years. Because I would say 609 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,319 Speaker 1: there are a number of now pretty well observed phenomena 610 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: that would under normal circumstances be creating new sacred mountain 611 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: myths all the time, and maybe we should explore that 612 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:11,440 Speaker 1: when we come back from a break. Thank thank alright, 613 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:16,120 Speaker 1: we're back. We've discussed all these mythological ideas about about 614 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:19,719 Speaker 1: mountains and sacred mountains. But well, let's get into some 615 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: more recent accounts that shed light on some of the 616 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:27,399 Speaker 1: things that are happening when humans go to great heights. 617 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: All right, so I want to talk about an English 618 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: mountaineer named Frank Smythe who was famous and accomplished as 619 00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,200 Speaker 1: a climber in his day, and in nineteen thirty three 620 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 1: he attempted to reach the summit of Mount Everest, and 621 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,560 Speaker 1: if he had been successful, he would have been the 622 00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,640 Speaker 1: first person in history to do it. But he failed. 623 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:49,719 Speaker 1: He fell short by only about three hundred meters or 624 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:52,640 Speaker 1: a thousand feet, which I'm sure is very frustrating when 625 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 1: you know you're that close and you can see it 626 00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 1: and you can't make it up. But of course, once 627 00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,719 Speaker 1: you hit those kind of altitudes, you're facing a lot 628 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: of problems. And number one, he would have been climbing 629 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,720 Speaker 1: without oxygen assistance. This is something that climbers today obviously 630 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:12,680 Speaker 1: benefit from. Um. But Smythe described in a first hand 631 00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: account after this experience a strange set of things that 632 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,239 Speaker 1: he saw and and felt while he was alone on 633 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,640 Speaker 1: this climb. So I just wanted to read a few 634 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,879 Speaker 1: sections from a from a piece that Smythe wrote called 635 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:33,439 Speaker 1: Mirages at twenty eight thousand feet Smythe wrote quote during 636 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: my solitary climb, too, curious phenomena were experienced. It is 637 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,799 Speaker 1: with great diffidence that I described them, and then only 638 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 1: at rutledge is the the expedition leaders request. I prefer 639 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: to draw no inferences from them, and merely to describe them. 640 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: The first was one that is by no means unique, 641 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: and has been experienced in the past by solitary wanderers 642 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: now not only in mountains, but on desert wastes and 643 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: in Pohler regions. All the time that I was climbing alone, 644 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 1: I had a strong feeling that I was accompanied by 645 00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:12,560 Speaker 1: a second person. This feeling was so strong that it 646 00:37:12,680 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: completely eliminated all loneliness I might otherwise have felt. It 647 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,799 Speaker 1: even seemed that I was tied to my companion by 648 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:24,320 Speaker 1: our rope, and that if I slipped, he would hold me. 649 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 1: I remember constantly glancing back over my shoulder, and once, 650 00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:32,319 Speaker 1: when after reaching my highest point, I stopped to try 651 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 1: and eat some mint cake. I carefully divided it and 652 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,880 Speaker 1: turned around with one half in my hand. It was 653 00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:41,520 Speaker 1: almost a shock to find no one to whom to 654 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,400 Speaker 1: give it. It seemed to me that this presence was 655 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: a strong, helpful and friendly one, and it was not 656 00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: until Camp six was cited that the link connecting me, 657 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,800 Speaker 1: as it seemed at the time, to the beyond was snapped, 658 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,960 Speaker 1: and although shipton in the camp were but a few 659 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:02,160 Speaker 1: yards away, I suddenly alt alone. The second phenomenon may 660 00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 1: or may not have been an optical illusion. Personally, I 661 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: am convinced that it was not. I was still some 662 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: two hundred feet above Camp six, and a considerable distance 663 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,720 Speaker 1: horizontally from it. When chancing to glance in the direction 664 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,480 Speaker 1: of the north ridge, I saw two curious looking objects 665 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: floating in the sky. They strongly resembled kite balloons in shape, 666 00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:24,920 Speaker 1: but one possessed what appeared to be squat underdeveloped wings, 667 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: and the other a protuberant suggestive of a beak. They 668 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,840 Speaker 1: hovered motionless, but seemed slowly to pulsate, a pulsation incidentally 669 00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:35,720 Speaker 1: much slower than my own heartbeats, which is of interest 670 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 1: supposing that it was an optical illusion. The two objects 671 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,080 Speaker 1: were very dark in color and were silhouetted sharply against 672 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: the sky or possibly a background of clouds. So interested 673 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,080 Speaker 1: was I that I stopped to observe them. My brain 674 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 1: appeared to be working normally, and I deliberately put myself 675 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,720 Speaker 1: through a series of tests. First of all, I glanced away. 676 00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,279 Speaker 1: The objects did not follow my vision, but they were 677 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 1: still there when I looked back again. Then I looked 678 00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: away again, and this time identified by name a number 679 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: of peaks, valleys, and glaciers by way of a mental test. 680 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: But when I looked back again, the objects still confronted me. 681 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 1: At this I gave them up as a bad job. 682 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:15,800 Speaker 1: But just as I was starting to move again, a 683 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:20,160 Speaker 1: mist suddenly drifted across. Gradually, they disappeared behind it, and 684 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,359 Speaker 1: when a minute or two later it had drifted clear, 685 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,880 Speaker 1: exposing the whole of the north Ridge once more, they 686 00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:30,800 Speaker 1: had vanished as mysteriously as they came. M hmm. Strange 687 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:35,840 Speaker 1: experiences when climbing Everest alone. Now, this third man syndrome, 688 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,759 Speaker 1: in particular, is not at all unique to Smile, As 689 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 1: he points out. In fact, reports like this come from 690 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:45,800 Speaker 1: many people in lonely struggles where survival seems to be 691 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,280 Speaker 1: at risk. Uh. There were reports from the Ernest Shackleton 692 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 1: expedition through Antarctica in nineteen sixteen that they often believe 693 00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 1: there to be another companion among them. There was one 694 00:39:57,080 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: piece in the British Medical Journal in two thousand eight 695 00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,680 Speaker 1: where a doctor and so this is much more recent, 696 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,600 Speaker 1: where a doctor and mountain climber named Jeremy Windsor described 697 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: his own firsthand experiences of this kind when he was 698 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:13,800 Speaker 1: climbing Mount Everest. He wrote quote, I first met Jimmy 699 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:17,759 Speaker 1: on the balcony, a cold wind swept snow shelf, high 700 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 1: up on the southeast ridge of Mount Everest, at an 701 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: altitude of more than eight thousand, two hundred meters. Our 702 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,520 Speaker 1: introduction had been brief, with little more than a muffled 703 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:31,040 Speaker 1: hello and a few words of encouragement passing between us 704 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,959 Speaker 1: over my right shoulder. Obscured by the bulky oxygen mask 705 00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,719 Speaker 1: and the rim of down that smothered my face, I 706 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:40,720 Speaker 1: was sure I could see Jimmy moving lightly in the darkness, 707 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: but despite him remaining close by me for the rest 708 00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,680 Speaker 1: of the day, I didn't see him again. At the time, 709 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,840 Speaker 1: it hadn't worried me. Instead, I was warmed by the 710 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:53,120 Speaker 1: thought of human company, and too breathless to question what 711 00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: seemed so real, If the truth be told, in my 712 00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,360 Speaker 1: thoughts were really nothing more than brief flickers of images 713 00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,280 Speaker 1: or sound that vanished with the onset of each new breath. 714 00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 1: So once again, a mysterious other accompanying someone as they 715 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: scale great heights. Yeah, and so in the middle of this, 716 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 1: I was actually reading an NPR article about this phenomenon 717 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,640 Speaker 1: that reminded me of a haunting passage in the fifth 718 00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:20,320 Speaker 1: section of T. S. Eliot's The Waste Land. That's the 719 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:23,720 Speaker 1: section entitled what the Thunder Said, which is an idea 720 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: taken from the Upanishads. But of course that already implies 721 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: the idea of like hearing voices coming from something other 722 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: than people, you know, hearing voices in the thunder, but 723 00:41:33,640 --> 00:41:37,480 Speaker 1: it mentions something like this other companion, or what's known 724 00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 1: as third man syndrome or third man factor. And I 725 00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:43,719 Speaker 1: went back and reread this section of the poem, and 726 00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 1: it was really interesting given what we're discussing here. It's 727 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,759 Speaker 1: talking about a journey through the mountains. I'm not sure 728 00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 1: exactly who's making this journey in the context of the poem, 729 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 1: maybe kind of disembodied. It might be implied that this 730 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,600 Speaker 1: journey is part of the search for the Holy Grail, 731 00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:00,600 Speaker 1: which is a part of that poem them. But but 732 00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,160 Speaker 1: I could be wrong about that. And it's got this 733 00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,520 Speaker 1: idea of the experience of an unseen third companion. So 734 00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,359 Speaker 1: Elliott writes, here is no water, but only rock, rock, 735 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 1: and no water, and the sandy road, the road winding 736 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,320 Speaker 1: above among the mountains, which are mountains of rock without water. 737 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,440 Speaker 1: If there were water, we should stop and drink. Amongst 738 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,799 Speaker 1: the rock, one cannot stop or think. Sweat is dry, 739 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 1: and feet are in the sand. If there were only water, 740 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,719 Speaker 1: amongst the rock, dead mountain, mouth of curious teeth that 741 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,960 Speaker 1: cannot spit. Here one can neither stand, nor lie nor sit. 742 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,399 Speaker 1: There is not even silence in the mountains, but dry, 743 00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:42,520 Speaker 1: sterile thunder without rain. There is not even solitude in 744 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:46,839 Speaker 1: the mountains, but red sullen faces, sneer and snarl from 745 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: doors of mud cracked houses. And then a little bit 746 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,480 Speaker 1: further down, Elliott says, who is the third who walks 747 00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,279 Speaker 1: always beside you? When I count there were only you 748 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,840 Speaker 1: and I together, But when I look ahead up the 749 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 1: white road, there is always another one walking beside you, 750 00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:06,040 Speaker 1: gliding wrapped in a brown mantle, hooded. I do not 751 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:08,600 Speaker 1: know whether a man or woman. But who is that 752 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,480 Speaker 1: on the other side of you? Now, of course Elliott 753 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,640 Speaker 1: is writing before I think this is in the early 754 00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,000 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties, so Elliot's writing before Smythe's account is published 755 00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:20,800 Speaker 1: or any of that. So this is a phenomenon that 756 00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,280 Speaker 1: had already been observed. But it seems to be especially 757 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 1: common among mountain climbers, and it's not the only strange 758 00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:31,440 Speaker 1: perceptual anomaly that's often reported by mountain climbers. Think also 759 00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:34,920 Speaker 1: of Smyth's second phenomenon, where he witnesses what you were 760 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:39,319 Speaker 1: reading about Robert, the strange floating balloon creatures, that they 761 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:42,279 Speaker 1: were just up there over the peak. And so it's 762 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:47,560 Speaker 1: extremely common for mountain climbers to report strange experiences, perceptions, 763 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 1: mystical encounters in the pursuit of high mountain peaks. And obviously, 764 00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,400 Speaker 1: given these modern accounts, it's not hard at all to 765 00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,880 Speaker 1: to imagine that they may have if something similar was 766 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,080 Speaker 1: going on in the ancient world. They may have played 767 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,280 Speaker 1: some role in the formation of religious beliefs about mountains. Absolutely, 768 00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:08,880 Speaker 1: I think it's it's a it's it's very fascinated to 769 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:10,200 Speaker 1: think about. And now, of course we don't want to 770 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:12,480 Speaker 1: fall into the trap of of saying that, you know, 771 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:17,239 Speaker 1: all supernatural ideas about the mountains can be attributed to 772 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,640 Speaker 1: whatever is going on with third man syndrome. But uh, 773 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,920 Speaker 1: you can certainly imagine how in some cases it might 774 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:30,600 Speaker 1: help to produce ideas and myths concerning entities and gods 775 00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:35,600 Speaker 1: in the mountains, or strengthen those examples, the strengthen those 776 00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,239 Speaker 1: traditions that are already set in place. Well, yeah, looking 777 00:44:38,280 --> 00:44:41,759 Speaker 1: back to Barren Bombs, themes that are often seen with 778 00:44:41,840 --> 00:44:45,040 Speaker 1: sacred mountains. Of course, there's the idea that that mountains 779 00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:47,800 Speaker 1: are often gods or the home of God's or the 780 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:49,480 Speaker 1: body of gods. It might be a place to go 781 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,560 Speaker 1: worship the gods. But also, like a couple of things 782 00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:55,400 Speaker 1: he mentioned, are the idea of like ancestors or the 783 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 1: dead or might have something to do with mountains. And 784 00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:02,880 Speaker 1: you can clearly see how, uh, a hallucinated third person 785 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,840 Speaker 1: or second person or companion on a journey could be 786 00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 1: interpreted as an ancestor. Often when people, when people hallucinate 787 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 1: presence is helping them, they are interpreted to be ancestors. 788 00:45:14,360 --> 00:45:16,920 Speaker 1: And also the idea of mountains being a place of pilgrimage. 789 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,400 Speaker 1: You know, if you're making this journey, someone could be 790 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:21,840 Speaker 1: there with you to make the pilgrimage. All right, on 791 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,360 Speaker 1: that note, we're going to close out this episode, but 792 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:26,560 Speaker 1: we are going to pick right back up in the 793 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,080 Speaker 1: next episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. We're gonna 794 00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:33,480 Speaker 1: thank everything we've discussed here about sacred mountain traditions and 795 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,359 Speaker 1: beliefs as well as third Man syndrome, and we're gonna 796 00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:40,560 Speaker 1: go a little deeper into the uh uh, into into 797 00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:45,239 Speaker 1: what seems to be going on neurologically, psychologically, and yes, 798 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:47,600 Speaker 1: we'll even make just a little bit of room for 799 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 1: the yetti. In the meantime, if you want to check 800 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:52,279 Speaker 1: out more episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, head 801 00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:53,799 Speaker 1: on over to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 802 00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:56,760 Speaker 1: That's the mothership. That's where you find all the shows. 803 00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,880 Speaker 1: You'll find links out to social media. 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