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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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Speaker 1: day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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Speaker 1: important legal news of the day. You can find more

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Speaker 1: episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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Speaker 1: and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. It's been quite

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Speaker 1: a day for Paul Manafort, President Trump's former campaign manager.

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Speaker 1: In d C. Manafort was sentenced to a total of

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Speaker 1: seven and a half years in prison for conspiracy and fraud,

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Speaker 1: and in New York, he was indicted in a new

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Speaker 1: sixteen count indictment, the first charges that are outside President

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Speaker 1: Trump's pardon power. Joining me is Brad Moss, a partner.

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Speaker 1: Mark said, so, Brad, let's begin with the sentencing judge

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Speaker 1: any Berman. Jackson is a tough judge, and she said

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Speaker 1: it's hard to overstate the number of lies Manafort told

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Speaker 1: in the amount of money involved in the charges, but

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Speaker 1: she didn't give him the maximum. She could have um

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Speaker 1: a little bit. But I think what you've seen now

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Speaker 1: from two different federal judges is they're not all that keen.

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Speaker 1: They don't truly love these sentencing guidelines they've been given

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Speaker 1: when it comes to pure white collar criminal cases. Whether

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Speaker 1: or not that's wise or not, whether it's appropriate or

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Speaker 1: not as not for me to say, but they clearly

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Speaker 1: don't think it's all that altogether justified to go as

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Speaker 1: harsh as the guidelines recommended. I mean, the recommendation for

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Speaker 1: the witness tampering was five years. And clearly Judge Jackson,

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Speaker 1: who's taken a very harsh approach on this and has

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Speaker 1: been very skeptical of Paul Manafford's explanations, I thought that

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Speaker 1: was way overboard. So, you know, like with any case,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's wild cards. One of the wild card

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Speaker 1: is going to be the judge. And even though Judge

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Speaker 1: Jackson gave Paul Manaford a far big, you know, harsher

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Speaker 1: tongue lashing than what Judge Ellis did, she did not

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Speaker 1: add too much to the sentence total of seven and

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Speaker 1: a half years between the two federal cases. He could

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Speaker 1: be out by going to be behavior from federal charges.

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Speaker 1: So she was also considering the charges that he had

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Speaker 1: been handed down by Judge Ellis. Correct. So yeah, so

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Speaker 1: it's so part of it was concurrent with what judge

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Speaker 1: Judge Ellis had done forty seven months. So a portion

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Speaker 1: of what Judge Jackson laid down was concurrent or overlapping,

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Speaker 1: which Judge Ellis got something of the charges were similar

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Speaker 1: and related, but the witness tampering part that was separate,

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Speaker 1: that was being served consecutively. So in total for all

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Speaker 1: federal charges that the seven and a half years now.

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Speaker 1: She made a point of pushing back on the defense

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Speaker 1: attorney's repeated assertions that Manafort was mere collateral damage in

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Speaker 1: the Special counsel's investigation. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is a political posturing move that the

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Speaker 1: defense lawyers have been doing throughout this case in the

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Speaker 1: one Eastern District of Virginia, trying to kind of appeal

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Speaker 1: through findings to the president's you know, hinting towards, you know,

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Speaker 1: a part in saying, you know, Paul manaforts being prosecutive

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Speaker 1: for things that don't have to do this telling with

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Speaker 1: Russian collusion. Judge Ellis was a little bit more sympathetic

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Speaker 1: to that argument, at least than a sentencing context. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: neither Judge Allis nor Judge Jackson tossed the cases based

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Speaker 1: off that nor what they have as a matter of law.

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Speaker 1: But Judge Jackson didn't want to hear it. She said, look,

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Speaker 1: these are serious charges. Whether or not it has to

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Speaker 1: do with collusion is irrelevant, and she made clear that

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Speaker 1: the cases, the case brought against Manaport does not resolve

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Speaker 1: one way or the other whether there was Russian collusion,

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Speaker 1: and no one said it would. Now shall we call

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Speaker 1: it unusual timing convenience? I don't know, But just after

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Speaker 1: the sentencing we learn about the indictment in New York

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Speaker 1: State by Manhattan District Attorneys Cyrus Vance. This has been

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Speaker 1: in the works for some time, but just announced now.

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Speaker 1: Correct from the filing, it appears they got this indictment

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Speaker 1: last week on the seventh. They were just holding on

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Speaker 1: for it, waiting for the moment for man of fourth

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Speaker 1: sentencing to come down so they could drop this and

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Speaker 1: add on to the pain state charges that are completely

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Speaker 1: beyond the scope of what Donald Trump can pardon. So

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Speaker 1: even if the President were to pardon Paul Manafort today,

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Speaker 1: which I'm sure he will not be doing, but even

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Speaker 1: if you were to do that, Paul would still face

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Speaker 1: very serious mortgage fraud charges coming out of New York

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Speaker 1: and will obviously face several years in prison from that.

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Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit more about the charges

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Speaker 1: in New York State and how they differ from the

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Speaker 1: charges that Manafort has faced. Sure, so the facts um

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Speaker 1: overlap a little bit, but the legal aspects of a

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Speaker 1: little difference. So in the federal cases it was about

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Speaker 1: money laundering and tax fraud and registering as a foreign agent,

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Speaker 1: things along those lines. What the State of New York

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Speaker 1: has brought our mortgage fraud charges with respect to the

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Speaker 1: information Paul Manafort was outlining in bank loan documents trying

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Speaker 1: to get mortgages on properties in the state of New York.

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Speaker 1: You know, anybody who's ever gotten a mortgage knows you

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Speaker 1: fill out that paperwork, you've outline your assets and how

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Speaker 1: much of the property you own, how much is under

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Speaker 1: you know, covered by more existing mortgages. And they are

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Speaker 1: stating that he defrauded the state in how he outlined

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Speaker 1: information in those documents. So, Brad, is this really unusual?

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Speaker 1: Would it be considered piling on if it weren't for

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Speaker 1: the fact that this pardon has been talked about and

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Speaker 1: dangled around. I mean, the State of New York certainly

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Speaker 1: has its discretion to to have pursued this Either way,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if they would have spent the time

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Speaker 1: to do it if they weren't concerned that the president

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Speaker 1: was going to try to give Paul man afore you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, the easy way out with a part in.

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Speaker 1: So sure, is it a little bit of political action here?

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Speaker 1: Of course? Is that anything new in the United States

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Speaker 1: America now? And some people may be interested in in

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Speaker 1: finding out just how a person who is serving time

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Speaker 1: in prison then ends up having to defend themselves. How

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Speaker 1: what the logistics are here. Yeah, there's gonna be a lot,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's gonna be a question of does Paul

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Speaker 1: Manafort want to bother showing up at these hearings. He

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Speaker 1: stopped coming once he had been confined to jail. He

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Speaker 1: stopped coming to the hearings in federal court because it's

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Speaker 1: a whole huge process at several hours the time in

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Speaker 1: transit and then sitting in holding rooms. And for a

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Speaker 1: guy who was once very high on the hog and

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Speaker 1: living in you know, luxury and mansions and you know,

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Speaker 1: big parties with ten thous dollar plate dinners to suddenly

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Speaker 1: just be in the orange jumpsuit sitting next to comic criminals,

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Speaker 1: it's a little bit you know, degrading and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: he doesn't like doing it and the attorneys fees here,

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Speaker 1: any idea what neighborhood there in At this point we

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Speaker 1: only have forty five seconds, so you can just speculate

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Speaker 1: a little easily. He's looking at hundreds of thousands and

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Speaker 1: additional fees. I'm pretty sure he's going to seek a

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Speaker 1: plea be able to try to minimize that the man

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Speaker 1: has the family still he's at trying to take care of.

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Speaker 1: You can't pay out those kind of fees, all right, Brad,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for following this with us and for

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Speaker 1: your insights. That's Brad Moss. He's that's a Brad Moss.

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Speaker 1: He's a partner at Mark's State. Thanks for listening to

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Speaker 1: the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe and listen to

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Speaker 1: the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and on Bloomberg dot

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Speaker 1: com slash podcast. I am June Brosso. This is Bloomberg