1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: As the nation watched Hurricane Harvey barrel toward landfall in Texas. 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: Friday night, the White House released a statement announcing President 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: Trump had pardoned controversial Arizona County Sheriff Joe R. Pio. 4 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:16,520 Speaker 1: Bearing the news of Trump's first pardon. Our Pio was 5 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: one of Trump's earliest supporters. He's become a national symbol 6 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: of and criminally convicted for his tough crackdown on illegal 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: immigrants and racial profiling of Latinos. Political leaders in Arizona, 8 00:00:29,360 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: as well as national leaders, condemned the pardon. Congressman ralg Rehalva, 9 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: a Democrat from Arizona, says it was Trump's wink wink nod, 10 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: not to his very extreme basse. Jora Pile became an 11 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: icon to the ultright, became an icon to UH Neo 12 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:50,839 Speaker 1: Nazis and white supremaciy across this country. You're excusing and 13 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: pardnering their symbol. It's an encouragement and it embolds them more. 14 00:00:55,000 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: And that's how good. Arizona Republican Senator John McCain in 15 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: a statement, and that pardoning our Pio undermines Trump's quote 16 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: claim for the respective rule of law. As Mr R. 17 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: Pio has shown no remorse for his actions. Joining us 18 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: as guests are Andrew Wright, professor at Havanna at Savannah 19 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: Law School, and Renando Mariotti, a partner at Thompson Coburn 20 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: and a former federal prosecutor. Andrew Trump has criticized federal 21 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: judges and court rulings. He tried to stop a federal investigation. 22 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:33,360 Speaker 1: According to James Comeby's testimony, is this pardon any different 23 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 1: any more shocking? Well, in one sense, it's more shocking 24 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: than these other attacks because in this case, our pious 25 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: the specific crime that he was convicted of was his 26 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: willful disobedience from federal court orders to stop violating people's 27 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: constitutional right. So this was a direct attack in the 28 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: sense in one sense the president of the power to 29 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: partner our pile. But the reasons for it are very 30 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: troubling because the president not only didn't expect an admission 31 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 1: of guilt from our pile, but he actually endorsed the 32 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: conduct by saying that he did a good job in 33 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,720 Speaker 1: his tweets. So I think the message to the judiciary 34 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: is loud and clear that their ruling was not enforced 35 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,239 Speaker 1: and that the president undermines the message they were trying 36 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: to send for respect for their proceedings. We're not. This 37 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: was done in a way that is unusual for presidential 38 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: pardons in that, you know, you didn't have a lengthy 39 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,480 Speaker 1: Justice Department review first, and it's you know, put aside 40 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 1: at getting announced late on a Friday night. Does the 41 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:41,040 Speaker 1: procedural difference here from most pardons amplify that message in anyway? Well, 42 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: you know, it's a great question, I think in and 43 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: of itself, go, you know, doing away with procedure doesn't 44 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 1: bother me. I mean, you could imagine that, you know, 45 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: for example, they're they have often been cases where civil 46 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 1: rights leaders were you know, hit with court orders from 47 00:02:57,600 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: racist judges. For example, you know, you know, you know, 48 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: somebody had been protesting the KKK and got a you know, 49 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: one week sentence, and the president decided to rush to 50 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 1: get that personal pardon. I would applaud that. I think 51 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: a lot of Americans would. I think what's what's concerning 52 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 1: here is, as Andy pointed out, obviously the conduct by 53 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:22,720 Speaker 1: Sheriff Arpeo was essentially flaunting a court order, doing so deliberately, 54 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 1: showing no remorse whatsoever, something as knows at the law, 55 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: and so when you're in a rush to get that 56 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 1: guy a pardon. Um, it suggests that you're trying to 57 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: help your your friends, your associates, um, without regard for 58 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: the effect that that may have on the respect for 59 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: the law and the judicial system. Andy, A lot of 60 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: legal experts said it was unlikely that our Pio would 61 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,119 Speaker 1: be sent to prison, and there was about a six 62 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: month sentence ahead, but he had a clean record before that, 63 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: so in his age. So why did Trump do this? 64 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: Is it a signal to those who might be tempted 65 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: to make deals with this special counsel Muller as the 66 00:04:02,400 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: Russia probe gets closer to Trump that not to worry, 67 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: I'll protect you. Well, it was certainly a message to 68 00:04:09,560 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: what President Trump considers his hardcore base, to signal to 69 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: them his support of one of their heroes, which is 70 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: unfortunately largely populated by the alt right and white supremacists. 71 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: As as it relates to Russia, you know, it's it's 72 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:26,680 Speaker 1: it's kind of a dangerous proposition to use this as 73 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: a trial balloon for Russian um pardons because in the 74 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: Russian context, those are self protective and that kind of 75 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: self dealing makes the politics even worse. As bad as 76 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 1: the politics here were. Um, it will make look you know, 77 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: Trump look like he's doing it for a self interested way, 78 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 1: I think. Um. And also there are some legal problems 79 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: that come from Russia pardons um for the people involved 80 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: in that. They can to sort a Fifth Amendment right 81 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: not to testify in front of Congress or grand jury 82 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: if they don't face legal jeopardy, uh, for for the 83 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: conduct that they're being questioned about. So, you know, without 84 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: predicting Trump behavior, which I think is a fool's errand 85 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: I would say that there are certainly some arguments that 86 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,480 Speaker 1: would suggest that that might even be worse than this. 87 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: So I wouldn't uh, you know, if I were lawyers 88 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: for those people that might be seeking those pardons, um, 89 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: I would be giving mixed advice to them about the 90 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: nature of this signal nano. As Our Pio's case was 91 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 1: headed towards trial in the spring, Trump asked Attorney General 92 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: Jeff's Sessions whether it would be possible for the government 93 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: to drop the criminal case against Our Pio, according to 94 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 1: the Washington Post, and after talking with Sessions, Trump decided 95 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: to let the case go to trial and if Our 96 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: Pio were convicted, he could grant clemency. According to the Post, 97 00:05:42,160 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: is there a problem with Trump approaching Jeff Sessions in 98 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 1: that way? All right, that's a very interesting way of 99 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:52,560 Speaker 1: putting the question. I think let's let me take a 100 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:54,360 Speaker 1: step back for a minute and say, first of all, 101 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: it's it's highly unusual for the president to ask the 102 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: attorney general to drop a case or to end an 103 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 1: investigation of an associate or friend of his. I think 104 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: it's inherently problematic. Um. It is um something that at 105 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: the very least is can create a significant um um 106 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: appearance of impropriety. And I believe the Post story said 107 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: that Sessions or and others indicated to the President that 108 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: it was, you know, uh, not appropriate for him to do, 109 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,599 Speaker 1: and that's why he dropped it. And I think it 110 00:06:31,800 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: is it is especially interesting and especially important because, as 111 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 1: we know, um, there are allegations made by former FBI 112 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: Director James Comey that the President made a similar request 113 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: of him regarding the investigation of Michael Flynn. And you know, 114 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: there's also been reports that that Mr Muller is investigating, 115 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:59,400 Speaker 1: um an obstruction charge based upon that conduct. Uh. And 116 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 1: if I is investigating an obstruction yards based upon the 117 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:07,040 Speaker 1: president's UH statements regarding ending the Flynn investigation or the 118 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: Russia investigation. This would be a very important data point 119 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: for me because this gives us a second instance where 120 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: the president is asking, uh, the asking law enforcement to 121 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: drop a UM investigation of one of his friends. And 122 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: it brings, uh, you know, it brings to mind, um, 123 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: you know the fact that that UM Mr Mueller is 124 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: going to have to would have to prove to prove 125 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: obstruction the president's corrupt intent, and the best way to 126 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 1: prove intent is through somebody's words and actions and through 127 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: their pattern of behavior. So I think that this this 128 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: incident could be actually very important for Mr Mueller and 129 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: his investigation. Andy following up on you know, possible consequences 130 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: here UM, Noah Feldman wrote at Call on Bloomberg viewed 131 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 1: recently about if you know before the part was issued, 132 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 1: saying if the pardon, if the President pardoned Share for 133 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: a PIO, that it would be the kind of abuse 134 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: of constitutional authority that could conceivably be grounds for impeachment. 135 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: And he noted that you know, James Madison said that 136 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 1: abuse of the pardon power could be a grounds for impeachment. 137 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: Are is it possible that that you know, there may 138 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: be those kinds of consequences for the presidents as a 139 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: result of this. It's a really good question. I mean, 140 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: you know, impeachment power is an argument, a political argument 141 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: about the law, and so the way you know, it's 142 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: not just whatever the Congress decides, um, but it's also 143 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 1: not a legal technical definition of what high crimes and 144 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 1: misdemeanors is. And maladministration or abuse of power can rise 145 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: to a sufficient level that that could certainly be grounds 146 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: for you know, the House of Representatives to decide to 147 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 1: move forward with impeachment hearings as a theoretical matter, and 148 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: you know, I think certainly abuse of the pardon powers 149 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: one of those core abuse is that was within the 150 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: minds of the framers when they drafted the provision, because 151 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: we're supposed to be a country with it's a rule 152 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:07,720 Speaker 1: of law and not a rule of men, and the 153 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: pardon power can absolve people of their legal violations, and 154 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: so that's why it's such a delicate power to use, 155 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:17,959 Speaker 1: even though it's quite important power to make corrections or 156 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: meet out mercy in certain cases. So you know, as 157 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: a as a practical political matter, um, there's not a 158 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: lot of appetite for Republicans that hold the gavels to 159 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 1: move forward with impeachment hearings. However, I will just say 160 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: that the president has been deteriorating his political environment repeatedly, 161 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: and every time the you know, he attacks the Senate leader, 162 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:42,040 Speaker 1: Republican leader Mitch McConnell or Paul Ryan, feels forced to 163 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: put out a statement condemning this or that that the 164 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:49,080 Speaker 1: president is done. He's definitely not aiding his cause politically. Um. 165 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,559 Speaker 1: And then, of course theeen elections could change the composition 166 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,640 Speaker 1: of the chambers, especially in the House side, and that 167 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: could we could really be talking about something else because 168 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 1: these issues are going to be remaining there whoever is 169 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,439 Speaker 1: in charge of Congress after twenty eighteen election cycle. So 170 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: I think that, you know, this is the kind of 171 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: thing that is the kind of grave abuse that could 172 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: rise to the level of that kind of consideration. But 173 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 1: you have to get the tipping point first where Congress 174 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 1: is motivated to move forward with impeachment considerations. Renato. Many 175 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: presidents have been criticized over their pardons, the pardons that 176 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 1: they've given, and is basically though the pardon power except 177 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: for what Andy was just discussing unlimited virtually unlimited? Is 178 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: there any is there are there any restrictions on it? 179 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:42,319 Speaker 1: So the legal matter, the pardon powder power is basically 180 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: unlimited or virtually unlimited. I wrote a piece for the 181 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: Hill a couple of weeks ago in which I argued 182 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 1: that pardoning yourself I think would not be permissible um 183 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:57,880 Speaker 1: under the Constitution. I think is just a practical matter. 184 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: I don't think courts were um endorsed. You know, if 185 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: that pardon was ultimately challenged in court, I don't really 186 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:06,719 Speaker 1: think a court would uphold a pardon where you have 187 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: a president committing crimes and then pardnering himself. Just you 188 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: can imagine the potential consequences that that could come if 189 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: a president could do that. Um. Other than that or 190 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: you know, some sort of absurd result or result that's 191 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: that you can make an argument from the text that hey, 192 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,400 Speaker 1: you have to partner another person. I don't think there's 193 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: any limit, and I think that, you know, really the 194 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: question is what can the president you know, in terms 195 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: of partnering, is what could the president do that that 196 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: that would cause Congress to take action because otherwise, um. 197 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: The only other argument I've heard about limiting pardons would 198 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: be if a pardon was itself part of a scheme 199 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 1: to obstruct justice. Thank you both so much for being 200 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Law. That's we're not on. Marianti, a partner 201 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 1: at Thompson Coburn and Andrew Wright, professor at Savannah Law School.