1 00:00:09,720 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 2 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisanthal, and unfortunately my colleague and co host 3 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: Tracy Ellaway is out this week, so you'll have to 4 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 1: just listen to me solo. But I'm excited about today's 5 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: conversation because it's a follow up to one of our 6 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: episodes that we did a few months ago. So if 7 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: you recall, in mid October, Canada legalized recreational cannabis that 8 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: coincided with a boom and stocks relating to cannabis, lots 9 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,680 Speaker 1: of interest in this, but still so much uncertainty about 10 00:00:48,720 --> 00:00:51,600 Speaker 1: how the market would actually play out and who would 11 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: really make money, and what kind of margins there would be, 12 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 1: and just what kind of roll out there would be 13 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:03,240 Speaker 1: in general of the operations of legalized recreational marijuana in Canada. 14 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,160 Speaker 1: And so a few months ago we talked to Craig Wiggins. 15 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: He is a part of a trio of analysts known 16 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: as the Canalysts. They have a popular Reddit page called 17 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: the Canalysts where they do pretty serious, deep dive financial 18 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: analysis of the publicly traded cannabis companies. They have a 19 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: very big following that's grown over time and they do 20 00:01:25,400 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: events and podcasts and other stuff really become They've become 21 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: the sort of go to destination for serious analysis of 22 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: these companies. And so we talked to Craig right before 23 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: the legalization, right before recreational is about to come out, 24 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: and so he wanted to go back and talk to 25 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:45,919 Speaker 1: Craig again about what he's learned and what he's seen 26 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: in the first few months of the recreational market in Canada. 27 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 1: And so we have him back now. Craig Wiggins, thank 28 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: you very much for joining us. Thank you very much 29 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: for having me. I. Oh, I hope I'm not the 30 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: reason Tracey didn't show you are I said Tracy, we're 31 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: gonna have Craig back. And she's like, oh, I got 32 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 1: food poisoning last night. Suddenly I can't do it. No, 33 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: she wishes she could do it, but due to the 34 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: time zone she's in Hong Kong, she couldn't make it 35 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 1: this time. UM, so what's your overall You know, you 36 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: warned a lot about a lot of different things when 37 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,440 Speaker 1: we talked about the market and the impending legalization of 38 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: recreational and the fact that, um, you know, there's just 39 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 1: all kinds of issues with the supply chain, the sort 40 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: of the separation between the distributors and the retailers and 41 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: the provinces putting themselves in the middle. What have you 42 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: seen so far? How smooth has the rollout been? Well, 43 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:49,680 Speaker 1: I'm not sure the age of your listeners, but the 44 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: term gung show would probably be apropos for how adult 45 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: wreck has been rolled out throughout Canada. Okay, so I 46 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: take that as a negative. What has been the biggest 47 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: problems of them? I think there's a multitude of problems 48 00:03:06,720 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: and uh, we have no shortage of people pointing fingers 49 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,919 Speaker 1: at each other. In Canada, we have two distinct streams 50 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: with respect to cannabis. We have the medical cannabis and 51 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 1: we have the adult rack. The medical cannabis is all 52 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: done online and ship directly from an LP, a licensed 53 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: producer who is licensed by Health Canada, direct to patient 54 00:03:28,520 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: or Shoppers Drug Market, Canada's largest drug store chain, has 55 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: gotten involved in distribution of cannabis, but not from the 56 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: retail stores. Again, all online the wreck side. Each province 57 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: in Canada is responsible for distribution, most of them. I 58 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: think nine out of the ten major provinces all elected 59 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: to be the wholesale er of cannabis, and some of 60 00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: them elected to also be the retailer of cannabis, and 61 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: each events is different, so we really have a patchwork 62 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: of different models throughout Canada. And what we've really seen 63 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: is the theme that we've heard from the provinces who 64 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: are strapped for inventory, so much so that the Quebec 65 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 1: government who's actually running their own retail stores, have closed 66 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,240 Speaker 1: their retail stores Monday through Wednesday because there's not enough 67 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: product New bruns a similar situation. Alberta stopped issuing new 68 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: retail licenses. In Alberta, it is private distribution, even though 69 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: the government sees the need that they have to receive 70 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: the product before distributing it to the retail. So it's 71 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,719 Speaker 1: really been a patchwork and most of those provinces have 72 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: not done a very good job of their retail rollout, 73 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: whether it's private or or government run. That's just what 74 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 1: I was about to ask. Of the two main models, 75 00:04:57,640 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 1: neither one is looking particularly good right now. Yeah, and 76 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: that's where some of the fingerpoint it comes in. A 77 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 1: lot of the provinces said the LPs, the license producers 78 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: over promised and under delivered, and there's a lot over 79 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: promising going on the term funded capacity was bandied about 80 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: greatly in the industry because it's clear before when you 81 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:24,159 Speaker 1: say the LPs, these are the producers, the license producers 82 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: whose names investors have come to know, like a canopy 83 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 1: growth or in Afria. Yeah, they're cultivators, primarily cultivators. The 84 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: canopy has gone into the retail side. Aurora has purchased 85 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: an interest in the retail operation. But yes, the LPs 86 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: are are the ones that are producing, cultivating and then 87 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: shipping the product, whether it is medical or whether it 88 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 1: is adut rack, same distributor, the same growers feeding two 89 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: different screens. So if there's a shortage of supply and 90 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,359 Speaker 1: the LPs haven't been able to deliver on what they promised, 91 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: does that, in your view speak to some fundamental problem 92 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: or is this just like, look that maybe there's still 93 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 1: growing pains. They didn't really appreciate the scope of the 94 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: demand for it. But you know, in a few quarters, 95 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: in a few years, as they continue to build out 96 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 1: their growth facilities, that should stabilize. Yes, and no, the 97 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 1: quality that's coming out. There's only two form factors that 98 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: are presently allowed in Canada. One is flour but and 99 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: the other is oil. And it's oil that has has 100 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:38,840 Speaker 1: been provided in a diluted carrier oil like mct or 101 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 1: or olive oil or something like that. So there's only 102 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: presently two legal form factors in Canada, the edibles right 103 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:50,799 Speaker 1: that edibles and formed factor two point oh if you would. 104 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:57,400 Speaker 1: The discussion period just ended last week if I remember correctly, 105 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 1: and those new formats will be out by October of 106 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: this year. But the the bud side of the equation, 107 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,720 Speaker 1: there's some pretty scraggly looking flower that's that's getting delivered 108 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: to customers that are used to if they're they're from 109 00:07:14,040 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: the black market or what we've been calling lately. The 110 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: legacy market is not nearly as good. So there are 111 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: some premium flower out there, no question about it. There's 112 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 1: some gorgeous flower out there, but there's a lot of 113 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: flower that's coming through that. Uh. We see pictures posted 114 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 1: on Twitter that just do not look appeal. So one 115 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: of the questions that I had, and that I've been 116 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: really curious about prior to the introduction of recreational is 117 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: the degree to which consumers or new consumers of cannabis 118 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 1: would gravitate towards specific brands. Because we know that in 119 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 1: other sort of vice industries. People of their favorite beers 120 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,080 Speaker 1: and they can you know, maybe they dabble with some others, 121 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: but there's ones that they really like. Obviously, people have 122 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: loyalty to certain cigarettes that they like. Are we seeing 123 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: any trends play out where there are certain strains or 124 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: certain brands that people have shown a consistent affinity towards 125 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: or is it too early to know. There's a lot 126 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 1: of brand hopping in the mid mid range and the 127 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: lower priced product as people try to figure out what 128 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: they like from each of the producers. The premium brand names, 129 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:33,480 Speaker 1: the Broken Coasts, the Cantalus Labs, the Supreme Pharmaceuticals or 130 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: Fire is what the what their tickers and what people 131 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: call them. Those Premium and Flower are doing very well. 132 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: They're they're selling very well, a lot of social media 133 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: on the product. So something like a Broken Coast, are 134 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: we is this like this the cannabis equivalent of some 135 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,160 Speaker 1: you know, I p a microbrew. Yes, they don't put 136 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: out a lot of product, but the product they put 137 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: out is gorgeous. It's Broken Coast is my favorite. I've 138 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: tried Cantaalists, I haven't tried to Fire yet, but those 139 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: those those higher end quality ones, and they're a little 140 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: bit more pricier. They're they're plus ten dollars Graham through 141 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: the retail outlets, so they are more pricey than legacy 142 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 1: market or black market. But at the same time, they're 143 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 1: head and shoulders about what we're seeing from some of 144 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,280 Speaker 1: the mass brands that are out there. Do the mass 145 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: brands also have their sort of premium lines? Are they trying? 146 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 1: You know, they're sort of the faux indie lines that 147 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 1: you see in beer. They have them. But there's, as 148 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: I said, there's a lot of brand hopping right now 149 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: as people try to figure out what's good and what's 150 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: not good and uh, in this day of social media, 151 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: if you ship a container of stems and seeds, it 152 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 1: ends up on the Internet and people know pretty quickly. 153 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: So if you're if you're trying to build a brand, 154 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 1: it's probably not a good idea to build the brand 155 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: without the quality there first. So let's talk about this 156 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 1: side of it, because obviously, as you say, ay, there's 157 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: not enough supply, and be when there is supply, a 158 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: lot of times the flower is mediocre and it looks 159 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 1: really terrible on social media. Is this is that again? 160 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: I'm still trying to wrap my head around this question 161 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: of how much is just growing pains demands strain on 162 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:33,079 Speaker 1: the system versus maybe they're not that good at growing 163 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: at scale, or maybe there's going to be some issue 164 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:40,319 Speaker 1: that's going to permanently be an issue with growing at scale, 165 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: Like how much of this is do you expect to 166 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: be solved over the coming years. Well, I think a 167 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,120 Speaker 1: lot of it gets solved through genetics. Yet you have 168 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: to remember cannabis has been grown in small scale in 169 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: Canada indoor simply because you have to hide it. So 170 00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:01,400 Speaker 1: going to these mass greenhouses, the genetics are going to 171 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 1: take a while to dial in. The genetics have to 172 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: come along to be able to grow in a different, 173 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: less controlled environment than an indoor shop, the indoors. And 174 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: it's interesting because the three premium brands I mentioned to 175 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,439 Speaker 1: you are the ones that I see premium. Broken Coast 176 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 1: is indoor grown, U Tantalus is a craft greenhouse that's 177 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: only an acre in size, and fire Is is also 178 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: a hybrid greenhouse. So growing in greenhouse, which a lot 179 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:35,559 Speaker 1: of people thought, you know what, it's not gonna work 180 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:41,319 Speaker 1: because the genetics weren't there. We're seeing it so it's 181 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:45,079 Speaker 1: a matter of the genetics and really dialing in these 182 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: large facilities. It just hasn't been done before, especially in 183 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: greenhouses on this level. So the genetics will take a 184 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 1: while to dial in. Is there growing paints. There's always 185 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: going to be growing paints. We even hear from the 186 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: indoor guys that it's a two year dial in to 187 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: get get what they're growing perfectly right. So you can 188 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: only be as good as the plant you're growing. So 189 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: the genetics are really important, but also the genetics need 190 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 1: certain things to thrive to be their best. And if 191 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: you've taken indoor genetics and you're trying to transform into 192 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 1: a greenhouse environment, it's going to take you a while 193 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: to dial that in. We know the big some of 194 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: the big names, your Canopies, Auroras and so on. What's 195 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: the actual number for how many publicly traded cannabis companies 196 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: that are in Canada? Wow, publicly traded. I've got to 197 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,560 Speaker 1: think it's north of fifty right now. I think there's 198 00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: a hundred licenses. One company can hold multiple licenses like 199 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: Canopy and and Afrian and the like. But there is 200 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: a there's a lot of companies out there, and we 201 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: are seeing some of them do well in the first 202 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:01,200 Speaker 1: quarter because the wholesale markets still surprisingly strong. So we 203 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: have some of these big companies, despite their growing capacity, 204 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: are still buying wholesale to leave it to sell out 205 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 1: to retail, which is quite shocking given some of the 206 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:17,839 Speaker 1: the amounts of inventory we see on their books and 207 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 1: what they should be growing versus their square footage. So 208 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:42,000 Speaker 1: let's talk about metrics, because, as I mentioned in the introduction, 209 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: your crew, the Canalysts are known for really top shelf, 210 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: deep dive analysis into these companies and you really sort 211 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: of pick apart the financials and as you just mentioned, 212 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: you also tour the facilities. You really sort of get 213 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: to know them on an operational scale for an investor 214 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: who's looking in this space. And it's worth noting that 215 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: many of these cannabis companies have had a phenomenal start 216 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: to the year in the stock market. After slumping after 217 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 1: the bubble or the boom last year, they slumped, now 218 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 1: they're really back on fire. What should people look at 219 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: now to see who's getting traction in the recreational space 220 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: and who's growing in some manner that you know, looks 221 00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: like they're growing efficiently and uh, scaling nicely. What should 222 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: people look for in their earnings filings and so forth. Well, 223 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: what I look at and we run not only peer groups, 224 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: but we run trends on individual companies. The sales growth 225 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: is important. The gross margin they are all over the 226 00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: map these days. The gross margin. I'd like to see 227 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: gross margin in the companies that I invest in start 228 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 1: creeping into the seventy percent range. Canopy, just to give 229 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: you an idea. Their last quarter they were at they 230 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: dropped from two and I even think are the folks 231 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: over at Aurora dropped a little bit down to fifty? 232 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 1: You're not going to get good returns on the amount 233 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 1: that they're spending below the line without a strong gross margin. 234 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: Explain that. So what is going on in the business 235 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: that is causing gross margins to deteriorate. Well, there's a 236 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: lot of launching of new facilities. So as those new 237 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: facilities come on, you might not be matched against your 238 00:15:29,640 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: revenue in that quarter, so there might be a lag. 239 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: Like for instance, Aurora Sky finally got all their licenses 240 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 1: and we're actually touring a Roora Sky today with video cameras. 241 00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: So I'm actually looking forward to seeing what my colleagues 242 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: bring back on that. But Aurora Sky just got all 243 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: their licenses. They've actually planted the flag. They said in 244 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,480 Speaker 1: UH for their fourth quarter of this year, which is 245 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: actually second calendar quarter there, they planted the ebitda flag 246 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 1: and said they're gonna be ebit de positive. They've got 247 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: a hill to client. They're they're running at a bout 248 00:16:00,880 --> 00:16:04,760 Speaker 1: minus thirty three million and adjusted. But it does as 249 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: I calculated, and it's interesting to see will they be 250 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: able to bridge that gap in order to adjusted. But that, 251 00:16:15,160 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: just for your audience, is one of my favorite metrics. 252 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: I'm an old school commercial lender, so that's how you 253 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: get paid back. Looking at that line. So what you 254 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,720 Speaker 1: need to drive that is you need your sales growth 255 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,840 Speaker 1: to drive uh the top line. Then you need your 256 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: gross margin to convert it into how much money after 257 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: my production cost do I have to pay my s 258 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: g n A and my operating expenses? Just just to 259 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: give you an idea, last quarter, Canopy did eighty three 260 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: million in net revenue net of excise tax, and they 261 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: had a hundred and seventy million in our backs. And 262 00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: the folks over at Aurora also had over two of 263 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,800 Speaker 1: their sale was at x so it's tough to make 264 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: money when when when you're ax is outpacing your sales 265 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: at the two to one level. So do these companies 266 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm thinking of like and it's kind of 267 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 1: unrelated from a business model standpoint, but the question, the 268 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: fundamental issue, man is like thinking about some of the 269 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 1: fast growing startups in the US, say like an Uber 270 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: or a Lift, and they obviously have spending growth that's 271 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: much fast, that's incredibly fast, and they're losing money, but 272 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: they say, well, this is all worth it. But then 273 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: the question that investors faces like, okay, but when is 274 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,919 Speaker 1: the spending going to slow down? Like, what is the 275 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: timetable for when you're gonna be able to stop investing 276 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:47,959 Speaker 1: and actually produce growing cash flow and growing margins and stuff. 277 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: Do these companies and obviously because of the demand and 278 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: the growing pains, obviously they have rapidly expanding costs and 279 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 1: new facilities. Do they have a timetable for when this ends? 280 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:03,960 Speaker 1: Or is their view that look, there's a lot of 281 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: growth ahead, We're just going to keep investing in the future. 282 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: And at this point it's premature to talk about slowing 283 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: down the expense side. I think there's some In each 284 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: each of those camps, we hunt inflection points. We are 285 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: looking for when will the break even and sales and 286 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: the break even for a positive net operating profit on 287 00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: a break even for adjusted EPA. We're hunting those inflection points. 288 00:18:28,520 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: That's what we do with with our charting and our graphic. 289 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: We're trying to see when that happens. And we're we've 290 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: seen some inflection points last quarter. Do those inflection points 291 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: become trends and at the end of the day, like 292 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 1: I think Canopy went from last quarter uh SE, s 293 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: g n A or APEX to sales, so that that's 294 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 1: a big improvement, all driven by the sales line. So 295 00:18:53,880 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: what we're hunting is to see are the gen A 296 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,359 Speaker 1: is going to plateau? Are the selling expenses going to 297 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 1: start trending down as a percentage of sales And we're 298 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,959 Speaker 1: starting to see that in some companies. So those are 299 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: the things we're hunting, and we believe the investors should 300 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: be paying attention to those things because depending on where 301 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,239 Speaker 1: you are on your your investment horizon. I'm fifty two 302 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: years old, I don't want to take as much risk 303 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: as say someone in their early twenties. I don't have 304 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: the runway to recover versus versus some if I make 305 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: a mistake at my age versus someone who's much younger. 306 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:32,240 Speaker 1: So if you believe in the story that cannabis is 307 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: going to be everywhere and global and the light, maybe 308 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:41,959 Speaker 1: maybe you're more bullish on that story. But for me, 309 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:47,000 Speaker 1: I'm still concerned about can you produce a product at 310 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: a decent gross margin to cover those those expenses. That 311 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,400 Speaker 1: that's what I look at. I want something that that 312 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: I can believe in with respect to their fundamentals. Fundamentals 313 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: isn't always the answer, but for where I am in 314 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:07,479 Speaker 1: my investment horizon, I am looking more for fundamentals than um. 315 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: I care about the stake, not the sizzle so much, 316 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:12,440 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of people are throwing a lot 317 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: of sizzle out there for sure. You know, Craig, I've 318 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 1: been meaning to ask um, what's happened to the medical 319 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 1: side of the market, because everybody knows a lot of 320 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: the medical marijuana consumption, probably in the US and Canada 321 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:31,960 Speaker 1: was just recreational consumption in disguise. What is the future 322 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,320 Speaker 1: of the medical side now that someone can just go 323 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: onto a dispensary without a prescription or anything like that. Well, actually, 324 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: for for a lot of the bigger companies so far, 325 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: their medical actually either stayed relatively stable, a little optick 326 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,400 Speaker 1: or a little downtick. So we did. We're through our 327 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: first reporting quarter of full rack, which was October November seven, 328 00:20:54,480 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 1: so companies like Canopy and or are reporting full quarters 329 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: of that. So I think Canopy went down a little 330 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: bit and Aurora went down. But also the other thing, 331 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 1: and here's the crazy thing in Canada on the medical side, 332 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: our government is charging an excise tax on medical cannabis 333 00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: because and I think this is a very lazy way 334 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: of approaching it. They're they're seeing it, well, if you 335 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: want to game the system and you want to pay less, 336 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: well you'll go into medical. Uh. But what they've tried 337 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: to do is even the playing field and thrown excise 338 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,959 Speaker 1: tax on it. And there is a lot of medical 339 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: benefit with respect to cannabis. I use it from my arthritis, 340 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 1: I use it for for sleep as well. And I 341 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: shouldn't be that dismissive of medical consumption and just saying 342 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: it's recreational and disguise, you'll really get get the folks 343 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: that that use it riled up quite frankly, but the yeah, 344 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: the excise tax that are that our government as has 345 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: put on it is crazy. And you asked, like, what's 346 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: part of the problem, and I said, there's a lot 347 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 1: of finger pointing. These excise stamps, which are about half 348 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:04,120 Speaker 1: an inch wide by by an inch long, are by 349 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: province and every producer, every license producer who ships it 350 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 1: out has to put one on all these disparate packages 351 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: from pouches, tubes, bottles, boxes, and they didn't get the 352 00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:20,160 Speaker 1: XI stamps still about two weeks before RED kicked off, 353 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 1: and there was no glue on them. So they all 354 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,400 Speaker 1: these companies designed all their packaging and then we're given 355 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,360 Speaker 1: these excise stamps that that have to go on the 356 00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,720 Speaker 1: opening and when the products opened, it still has to stay. 357 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: It'll tear, but it has to stay affixed. So that 358 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 1: that's our government helping out. I was touring Afrey yesterday 359 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 1: and they are hand sticking excise stamp stickers on the pouches, 360 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 1: on the bottles and that that is just not efficient. 361 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: But because all the packaging is different and these stamps 362 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,200 Speaker 1: have to be affixed and they have to stay affixed 363 00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,880 Speaker 1: after opening. Mond, you torn, it's a silly silly person 364 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: in this day and age in my mind. But the 365 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: government once they're they're sharing the excise stamps, go on it. 366 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,359 Speaker 1: It's very very colonial, colonial British, I think, Craig, I 367 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,640 Speaker 1: remember the last time we chatted, you used the phrase 368 00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: to describe the government's role in this. You said, you 369 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 1: have to put yourself in the position of a greedy 370 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 1: provincial finance minister to understand both their role as a 371 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 1: middleman but also their desire to maximize taxation revenue. What 372 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: kind of taxation revenue are they seeing, are they happy 373 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,360 Speaker 1: with it? And how is it impacting expected profits within 374 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 1: the industry. Well, you know what, I'm glad that resonated 375 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 1: with you, because it certainly is the case between the 376 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,200 Speaker 1: federal and the provincial taxes. I think they're taking forty 377 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: of the net purchase price into taxes in one form 378 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: or another, whether it's sales tax, excise tax, or what 379 00:23:54,640 --> 00:24:00,040 Speaker 1: have you. The the government's role as a middle in 380 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:04,400 Speaker 1: the provincial government, it is slapstick comedy. If you look 381 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: at Ontario. We had a liberal government when C. Forty five, 382 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:12,440 Speaker 1: which was the legislation was coming out uh provincially in Ontario, 383 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,000 Speaker 1: and they said we're gonna open forty stores, will run 384 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: them ourselves. They probably got three on the drawing board 385 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,680 Speaker 1: before they lost power income the Conservatives. The Conservatives take 386 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: a look and say, you know what, We're gonna open 387 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: this up to retail, private retail. We're not going to 388 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: own the stores. Everyone was very, very happy about that. 389 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: Then the Conservative government looked around and looked at Quebec 390 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: with their operating hours or their operating days being cut 391 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: to Thursday through Sunday, and uh and Alberta stopping giving 392 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: new retail licenses because the short store shelves were empty. 393 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 1: So the government had the idea that they were going 394 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:54,159 Speaker 1: to do a lottery system for twenty five retail licenses. 395 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: And this wasn't a vetted licensing system for the lottery. 396 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: They a actually took anybody's seventy five dollars who wanted 397 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: to put in an application, and there were twenty five 398 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: winners drawn. More than half of them are sole proprietors 399 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:15,199 Speaker 1: and they cannot, under the rules of the lottery change 400 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: their ownership for over a year. So we have twenty 401 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,200 Speaker 1: five retail stories coming to Ontario supposedly by April one, 402 00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 1: but the government has botched it. So much bad that 403 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: there these aren't season retailers coming into the market, and 404 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:34,479 Speaker 1: the big LPs are trying to figure out their way 405 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 1: around the red so they can partner with these. But 406 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,359 Speaker 1: this is the type of rollout that that we've gotten 407 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: in Ontario, which is the biggest province, and actually November 408 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,760 Speaker 1: to December the purchases purchases of cannabis went down in 409 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: Ontario despite despite the rollout, and Alberta is doing better 410 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: because they have more retail establishments, because the new buyer 411 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,440 Speaker 1: wants to go in, they want to take a look 412 00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: at things, they want to talk to people going on 413 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: the internet, right, something that you've never bought before. Um, 414 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 1: that's a different, different end of the stick, quite for ittly. 415 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 1: So so when you talk about greedy provincial provincial finance ministers, 416 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,479 Speaker 1: it is very very true that not only are they 417 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: taking taxes, but they're really not adding a lot of 418 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:21,000 Speaker 1: value into the equation. Craig, I feel like we should 419 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: just schedule you on the podcast like every six months 420 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,439 Speaker 1: or so, because obviously a big change between now and 421 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: the pre reck era. But it just feels like because 422 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: there's still so much in flux in terms of business 423 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 1: models and distribution models and scaling up that we should 424 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: just regularly check in with you. Really appreciate you coming on. 425 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,879 Speaker 1: Got to have you back again. Hopefully Tracey will be 426 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,920 Speaker 1: here uh this time, and thank you very much for joining. 427 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,360 Speaker 1: If you don't mind, I'd love to plug our YouTube 428 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 1: channel if you don't mind. As as far I have, 429 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:57,800 Speaker 1: we've gone to a paywalled subscription service for some of 430 00:26:57,840 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: our work, but we have a lot of our work 431 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: is still open source and our YouTube channel has so 432 00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: much investor information in there if you're interested to see 433 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: what a indoor grow up is. From soup to nuts. 434 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,400 Speaker 1: We have a documentary on Broken Coast and Uh, We're 435 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,439 Speaker 1: hoping to do some new new work and maybe we 436 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: can invite Joe to come and play his guitar and 437 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: uh sit down on one of our podcasts one of 438 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:26,360 Speaker 1: these days. I'd love I'd love to do that sometimes. 439 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,480 Speaker 1: Thank you very much, and I will as soon as 440 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,440 Speaker 1: I'm out of the studio. I'm gonna go check out 441 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 1: your YouTube. But I appreciate it. Craig Wiggins, he's one 442 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: of the cannabists. Definitely check out their stuff. And that 443 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 1: does it for this episode of The Odd Loans Podcast. 444 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 1: I'm Joe wisn'hal. You can follow me on Twitter at 445 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: The Stalwart. You can follow my co host on Twitter, 446 00:28:09,920 --> 00:28:14,560 Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway. She's at Tracy Alloway. Definitely follow Craig on Twitter. 447 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,800 Speaker 1: He's at Go Blue cd N, and be sure to 448 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: follow our producer to for Foreheads. He's at Foreheads T, 449 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: as well as the Bloomberg head of podcast, Francesca Levie 450 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: at Francesca Today. Thanks for listening.