WEBVTT - How the Bezos Earth Fund spends its billions — introducing Zero 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.320 Hi. I'm Akshatrati, a senior climate reporter for Bloomberg Green 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:07.840 and host of the podcast Zero. It's a show about 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:10.719 the tactics and technologies that take us to a world 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:14.800 of zero emissions. Every week I talk with influential people 0:00:14.920 --> 0:00:18.760 like Bill Gates, Justin Trudeau, and Kim Stanley Robinson, and 0:00:19.000 --> 0:00:22.000 also people you may not know but who have world 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:26.360 changing ideas like Briani Worthington on the UK's pioneering climate law, 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:30.600 Gail Whiteman on bringing climate to Davos, and George Monbio 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:33.879 on fixing the food system. Today, I'm sharing with you 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:36.839 a conversation I think you might like. It's an interview 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:40.560 with Andrew Steer, who heads the ten billion dollar Bezos 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.680 Earth Fund. It's a huge amount of money, but it 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:46.760 has to be spent wisely to make a real difference. 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:50.640 Andrew has worked for decades on climate solutions, and I 0:00:50.800 --> 0:00:54.000 wanted to know what role philanthropy plays in the climate 0:00:54.040 --> 0:00:54.840 flight and. 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:56.080 Where it fails. 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:58.840 If you like what you hear, subscribe to Zero wherever 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:06.560 you get your podcasts. New episodes drop every Thursday. Welcome 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:11.399 to Zero. I'm Akshatrati. This week my money, your money, 0:01:11.760 --> 0:01:28.280 and Jeff's money. In February twenty twenty, Jeff Bezos, then 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:31.039 the richest person on the planet, posted a picture to 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:35.679 his four million Instagram followers. It showed the Earth from space, 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:39.360 the North American continent peeking out from behind the clouds, 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:43.319 and accompanying the post was a big announcement he was 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:47.240 committing ten billion dollars to launch the Bezos Earth Fund. 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:51.480 It is the largest commitment to climate philanthropy ever made, 0:01:52.080 --> 0:01:54.240 and the fund is due to give out all the 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:59.720 ten billion dollars by twenty thirty. That money, as Bezos outlined, 0:02:00.200 --> 0:02:04.680 will fund and I quote scientists, activists, and geos, any 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:08.000 effort that offers a real possibility to help preserve and 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:11.919 protect the natural world. Already, the Fund has given out 0:02:12.000 --> 0:02:14.840 about one point six billion dollars to more than one 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:18.280 hundred projects around the world, from the Congo Basin to 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:22.760 the mainland US. About a third of that money has 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:25.799 gone to nature and conservation spending, but the fund has 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:30.400 also given out grants to projects involving food security, decarbonization 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:34.680 of industry, and climate tech. Bezas has made appearances at 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:37.080 high profile events like COP twenty six and the New 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:40.040 York Climate Week to announce how the money will be spent. 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:44.359 I'm pleased to announce a two billion dollar pledge allocated 0:02:44.400 --> 0:02:49.480 directly to restoring nature and transforming food systems. This is 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.919 part of the Bezos Earth Funds ten billion dollar commitment 0:02:53.240 --> 0:02:59.040 to fight climate change, enhance nature, in advance environmental justice 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:01.120 and economic opportunity. 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:05.120 By most measures, ten billion dollars is a lot of money, 0:03:05.600 --> 0:03:08.320 but it is also a small fraction of the three 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:11.639 point five trillion dollars that is needed annually to hit 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:15.120 net zero by twenty fifty. To make an impact, it 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:18.200 needs to be spent strategically and attract a lot more 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:22.800 money from governments and corporations. My guest today is Andrew Steer, 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:26.600 the CEO of the Bezos Earth Fund. With Bezos, he 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:30.000 decides where that ten billion dollars is allocated and how 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:33.800 to measure its impact. Before taking on this role, Andrew 0:03:33.960 --> 0:03:36.800 was the head of the World Resources Institute. He also 0:03:36.840 --> 0:03:39.600 worked as a Special Climate Envoy for the World Bank 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:43.840 and as Director General of the UK's Department for International Development. 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:47.680 I sat down with Andrew at the World Economic Forum 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:50.840 in Davos to ask how the Bezos Earth Fund spends 0:03:50.840 --> 0:03:55.400 its billions, what counts a success and whether climate philanthropy 0:03:55.720 --> 0:03:56.960 is the new super yacht. 0:04:05.520 --> 0:04:08.360 Andrew, Welcome to the show, Thank you, Akshat, looking forward 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:08.720 to it. 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:12.160 Now. What is the role of climate philanthropy over the 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:14.400 next few decades and how does it change as we 0:04:14.440 --> 0:04:17.320 get closer to hitting our climate targets by twenty fifty. 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:20.359 Well, philanthropy can act quickly, it can get ahead of 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:23.480 the game. Governments take quite a while to get their 0:04:23.520 --> 0:04:25.560 money baid to spend. We're able to do it quicker. 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:29.120 We're also able to take risks. So what we really 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:32.039 need to do is to look at the challenges of 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:36.120 this decade. They're about forty or fifty transitions we have 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:38.520 to go through. We need to diagnose those, and we 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:40.560 need to understand how do we get them to those 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:46.200 positive tipping points at which stage change becomes irresistible and unstoppable. 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.359 At COP twenty seven, you said, I don't think we 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:52.800 should buy into the idea that climate philanthropy is somehow 0:04:52.839 --> 0:04:56.719 an alternative to government, because governments have an obligation and 0:04:56.800 --> 0:04:58.599 they are not living up to it to the extent 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:01.480 they should. How do you see the role of philanthropy 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:04.720 and government being different. And when do you think philanthropy 0:05:04.760 --> 0:05:06.040 and government should work together. 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:10.120 I think philanthropy should often work together with government, although 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:15.359 sometimes philanthropy will be supporting political activism against governments to 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:22.240 change government policy. So philanthropy should not compensate for funding 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:25.560 that governments choose not to make. On the contrary, philanthropy 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:28.160 should try to urge governments to play the role that 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:32.239 they should play. Governments have an obligation to address public goods, 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:38.440 and protecting the atmosphere is a pretty important public obligation, 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.039 so to speak. And we do complement each other because 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:45.719 we are able to move quickly. We're able to take 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.679 risks that perhaps they could not, and that means that 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:53.960 we can go into things knowing that they may fail 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.760 if we believe that the potential return is large enough. 0:05:58.960 --> 0:06:01.760 In that regard a little bit more like a venture capitalist. 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:07.560 Venture capitalists know that some of the companies they invest 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:11.000 in will fail, but their view is that if I 0:06:11.040 --> 0:06:13.640 invest a million dollars and it fails, the most I 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:16.559 can lose is million dollars. If I invest a million 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:19.520 dollars in it succeeds, it may be worth twenty million 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:23.240 dollars very quickly. So I can afford to fail actually 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:28.680 quite often and still come out highly successful. For governments, 0:06:29.080 --> 0:06:34.279 it's actually much harder to do that because accountability mechanisms 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:37.560 are somewhat skewed, quite honestly. 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:38.080 So. 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:40.880 For example, the Department of Energy in the United States 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:45.400 has played an absolutely fantastic role in investing in early 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:49.479 stage technologies, and companies like Tesla, for example, and a 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.880 whole range of companies have done very very well based 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:56.880 upon early research. But it just took one investment that 0:06:56.960 --> 0:06:59.320 went bad called Cylindra. 0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:03.279 The US company that made solar panels. In two thousand 0:07:03.320 --> 0:07:06.600 and nine, then Vice President Biden announced that the company 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.039 would receive a loan of five hundred and thirty five 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:13.600 million dollars guaranteed by the US Department of Energy. Cylinder 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:17.040 ended up going bankrupt in twenty eleven and defaulting on 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:20.400 that loan. The same program also made a loan of 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:24.200 four hundred and sixty five million dollars to Tesla. That 0:07:24.280 --> 0:07:28.000 company is now worth hundreds of billions of dollars, and 0:07:28.080 --> 0:07:31.680 yet Cylinder's bankruptcy continues to be used by some members 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:35.080 of the government to criticize plans to invest in cleantech 0:07:35.360 --> 0:07:38.040 through legislations like the Inflation Reduction Act. 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:42.720 They just took one investment that went bad for all 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:47.920 of the congressional committees, all of the newspapers, the gotcha 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.360 types to give that a hard time, and so that 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:55.760 would illustrate the problems that the governments can have that 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:57.800 philanthropy does not now. 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:00.960 Twenty twenty two report by Climate Work said that only 0:08:01.000 --> 0:08:04.960 two percent of philanthropy dollars went toward climate mitigation in 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:08.320 twenty twenty one. That's about twelve and a half billion 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:11.320 dollars depending on how you count. But it's a tiny 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.240 percentage of the eight hundred billion dollars that is given 0:08:14.240 --> 0:08:17.679 out as philanthropy every year. Why is that number given 0:08:17.720 --> 0:08:18.680 to climate solo? 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:22.960 It is interesting how philanthropists have over the literally the 0:08:23.040 --> 0:08:27.200 last five to ten years, started to take climate change seriously. 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:30.360 I mean ten years ago there was very little funding. 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:34.960 There's still not enough, and that means that every dollar 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:39.160 allocated has to be used carefully. So, for example, I 0:08:39.200 --> 0:08:42.160 have the privilege of being the CEO of the Basos 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:46.160 Earth Fund, which is a ten billion dollar grant fund 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:50.880 that will be dispersed entirely this decade. That sounds like 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:53.760 a lot of money. It is to me and you, 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:56.360 but it's a small amount of money compared to the needs. 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:59.320 So we have to make sure that it is truly 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:02.720 lever it, and you can leverage in several ways. Now, 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:06.120 when we talk about the two percent of total philanthropy 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:09.840 that's going for climate mitigation, I've got to remember, in 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:13.640 addition to that, there's funding for nature, for example, which 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:17.400 also helps climate, And there's funding for food and agriculture, 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:22.240 which done right, also helps climate. There's funding for adaptation. 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:24.720 But all in all, it's still knowing there enough. I 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:25.440 do agree with that. 0:09:25.800 --> 0:09:29.080 Forty five philanthropic organizations signed up to the Giving to 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:33.760 Amplify Earth Action initiative at Davos. The initiative aims to 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:37.959 close the three trillion dollars of annual climate finance that 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:41.360 needs to be met to get to the goals of 0:09:41.400 --> 0:09:44.800 the Paris Agreement. That's equivalent to about three percent of 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:49.800 the world's GDP. How do you think philanthropic organizations can 0:09:49.840 --> 0:09:50.320 achieve that? 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:54.120 So, if you think about philanthropy today, as we discussed earlier, 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:58.840 let's imagine it's roughly fifteen billion dollars a year. It 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:01.600 would not be inc receivable at all to double that 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:04.360 in the next few years. Should that happen, that's thirty 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:07.080 billion dollars a year. Think about that, that's like one 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:11.320 percent of the total investment that is required. So that 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:16.079 one percent is a small tail wagging hopefully a bigger dog. 0:10:16.679 --> 0:10:19.840 So it needs to do it thoughtfully, and I think 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:23.520 that's the goal that some of us in the philanthropic 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:27.679 community have had. Wouldn't it be useful if we could 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:31.160 bring the different pieces of the jigs or puzzle together, 0:10:31.320 --> 0:10:35.000 the different actors and focus on, let's say an issue. 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:40.319 The issue could be preventing deforestation, it could be getting 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:42.800 rid of the internal combustion engine, it could be shifting 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:47.840 diets towards plant based food. You need governments at the table, 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:51.559 you need corporates at the table, you need carbon credits 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:55.360 at the table, philanthropy at the table. And it's only 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:58.040 when you do that that you actually then can get 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:00.600 that kind of synergy. 0:11:00.920 --> 0:11:05.920 So one way in which institutions, especially government institutions, but 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:11.760 also institutions that depend on donors giving money, justify their 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:16.640 presence their work is to sometimes measure it in how 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:20.880 many more dollars for every dollar they spent were invested 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:25.560 for those causes famously, NASA does that to justify that 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:30.400 a space program is necessary for the United States. And 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:34.640 then multiplier is large. If you're thinking of using thirty 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:38.000 billion dollars to get to three trillion dollars, your multiplier 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:41.360 is one hundred and none of the organizations I've looked 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:44.160 at have ever produced that kind of number, So how 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:45.199 do you think that will work? 0:11:45.440 --> 0:11:49.719 So that would be hubris to assume that if there 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:53.240 weren't philanthropy, nothing else would happen. I mean a lot 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:55.560 of it would happen anyway, because we have some good 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:59.080 governments out there, we have some good carbon credits, and 0:11:59.200 --> 0:12:02.080 we have some to companies that are wanting to invest 0:12:02.160 --> 0:12:04.959 in green So we don't need to over egg this 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:08.959 issue in terms of overstating the importance of the leverage 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:12.880 that philanthropy can have. Having said that, philanthropy can play 0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:16.600 a very useful role, and if you think about leverage, 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:19.439 the easy and obvious way to think about it is 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:24.120 we could de risk private investment. So private investors at 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:26.800 the moment are not willing to go into certain technologies 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:30.480 partly because it's risky. Sometimes it's country risk, sometimes it's 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:35.040 technological risk. Price risk, policy risk. Philanthropy could help de 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:38.160 risk that, but there are many many other ways of 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:42.160 getting leaverage. I mean, an obvious one is influencing policy. 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:47.280 For example, we could influence a global price on carbon 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:49.840 of one hundred dollars a ton. I mean, wow, that 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:54.040 would have leverage. But there are many many policies that 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:57.040 are required. For example, something we're working on right now is, 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:01.040 you know, everyone talks about green steel and cement, which 0:13:01.120 --> 0:13:04.400 is very important. The problem is actually not the technologist 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:08.080 to produce it, it's finding buyers who in the near 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:10.240 term will have to pay a little bit more for it. 0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:14.520 So it turns out that fifty percent of all the 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:17.880 cement in the United States is actually purchased by governments, 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:21.679 mainly local government, but also federal government. So one of 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:25.520 the things we're doing is supporting a program that seeks 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:30.000 to change procurement rules at the state and city level, 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:34.320 and it's being very successful. That in turn is creating 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:38.360 a demand, which in turn will drive down prices. And 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.720 once you reach a demand of a certain percentage, you 0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:46.480 actually can cross a tipping point because then steel companies 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:50.640 or cement companies understand the direction the wind is blowing 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:53.520 in and really go all in sort of thing. So 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.480 that's another example of laverage. 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:59.079 Now you mentioned that the BISOS Earth Fund is going 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:02.600 to spend ten million dollars this decade. You spend about 0:14:02.640 --> 0:14:05.320 one point six billion dollars so far. Could you just 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:08.520 walk us through what kind of projects you've funded so 0:14:08.600 --> 0:14:10.760 far and how do you go about choosing them? 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:13.640 So, the way we go about choosing them is we 0:14:13.760 --> 0:14:18.959 try to ask ourselves what are the big transitions that 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:23.920 are required this decade and next. So that includes eliminating 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:28.760 the internal combustion engine, it includes greening financial markets, It 0:14:28.840 --> 0:14:32.880 includes shifting dyets toward more plant pased nutrition and so on, 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:35.680 and they're about fifty of those. What we do we 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:39.440 use an initiative called the System Change Lab, which we 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:43.120 co run together with the World Resource Institute and others 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:45.600 that are heavily involved in it. And what it does 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:48.800 is it measures these fifty transitions and it asked where 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:52.320 are they as they seek to approach tipping points? And 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.560 then it asks what is the special source that seems 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:59.000 to get some of these past those tipping points? And 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:01.600 where are the bar that are preventing others? And so 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:03.960 what we try to do is look at those and 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:07.240 identify barriers that we could be helpful in removing. I'll 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:10.120 give you an example of something we're thinking about right now. 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:14.280 We now know that not only must we reduce carbon emissions, 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:18.320 we've actually got to take greenhouse gases out of the atmosphere. Now. 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:21.800 The best possible technology for that is planting a tree, 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:26.040 for example. So we have a very significant program of 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:31.080 landscape restoration trying to put a coalition together to regreen 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:34.640 or restore one hundred million hectares in Africa. We also 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:36.880 have a program in the United States doing the same. 0:15:37.440 --> 0:15:40.720 Turns out now that thirty five African countries are really 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.240 interested in doing this. It also turns out that we 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:45.760 have technology that we can measure it. We're financing that 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:48.320 as well. It also turns out that there's quite a 0:15:48.320 --> 0:15:52.080 bit of public and private money sitting on the sidelines. 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.640 And whilst there are actually thousands of community groups in 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:57.640 Africa that are very good at this, there are no 0:15:57.760 --> 0:16:02.160 intermediating institutions. We think is what could we do well. 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:05.160 We could play a role getting the methodology and the 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:08.560 satellite system to measure. We also could play a role 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:13.240 in helping to create those intermediating institutions that would be 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.840 an example of how we go about it. They also 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:19.840 though we've you and I have come to the conclusion 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:25.040 that simply that technology of photosynthesis is not enough to 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:27.520 take everything out. So we're actually looking at some other 0:16:27.560 --> 0:16:31.440 ways of taking carbon out of the air through, for example, 0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:36.960 the possibility of ocean absorption, the possibility of weathering, where 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:42.040 various chemical processes can take carbon dioxide. And even you know, 0:16:42.040 --> 0:16:45.840 there's some sort of frontier technologies that are nowhere close 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:50.000 to commercialization, so no one's actually investing in them. For example, 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:53.520 how do you take methane out of the atmosphere? Very 0:16:53.600 --> 0:16:56.880 very hard to do, But unless we invest now in that, 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:00.680 we won't have the technologies we need twenty years from now, 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:02.840 when it will sadly be essential. 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.120 Now you're talking about carbon removal here, because we need 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:09.080 to draw down carbon dioxide from the atmosphere. It will 0:17:09.119 --> 0:17:10.800 be a big thing that we'll have to work on. 0:17:11.240 --> 0:17:14.600 But currently the majority of the problem is to try 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:18.439 and actually reduce emissions. But given as a climate journalist 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:23.679 covering this subject, just the sheer amount of intellectual capacity 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.959 that is going towards the offset problem, which remains a 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:31.080 very small market billion dollars two billion dollars relative to 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:33.760 the three trillion dollars worth of mitigation work that needs 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.480 to be done. Why do you think when you thought 0:17:36.520 --> 0:17:39.600 of the right example to talk about where philanthropy can 0:17:39.680 --> 0:17:42.960 make a difference, was carbon offsets or carbon markets the 0:17:43.160 --> 0:17:46.320 right place to try and invest money or even bring 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:50.680 that up as the star example that philanthropy is helping improve. 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:56.040 Oh, maybe I was not clear. We've allocated three billion 0:17:56.080 --> 0:18:01.520 dollars for nature, billion dollars for conservation, a billion dollars 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:05.000 for restoration, and a billion dollars for food system transformation, 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:08.440 and we're still obviously allocating that money at the base 0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:12.920 fund of that first the conservation A very very small 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:15.600 fraction of that, I mean so far it would be 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:18.520 I don't know, maybe ten million dollars of that would 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:22.480 be to help set standards for the carbon markets. We 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:27.480 are spending one hundred and ten million dollars of grants 0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:33.159 in the Congo basin to help government and civil society 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:36.720 conserve nature that carbon markets don't play a role in 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:38.679 that at all, and we're doing exactly the same in 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:43.160 Latin America and tropical Andes, for example. I think they 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:47.800 do have a role, but much more important is conserving nature, 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:51.640 because that's not a minor part of the issue. Rural 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:56.720 space is responsible for more than a third of emissions, 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:58.920 and so we really have to address that. 0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:04.480 After the break. Should Amazon be doing more to cut 0:19:04.520 --> 0:19:07.480 its own emissions? And what happens to the money when 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:21.679 the decisive decade is done? The visos Hearth Fund was 0:19:21.720 --> 0:19:24.359 completely new when you started it, and the money is 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:26.159 supposed to be spent by twenty thirty. 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:30.080 What happens next, Well, yes, I left a job where 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:34.840 we had seventeen hundred people, and then I was employee 0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:37.680 number one in my new job, and we're sort of 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:41.719 ramping up basically, you know, we're willing to take risks. 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:46.600 We should inject funds very thoughtfully but boldly, and we'll 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:48.560 see if it works, and we'll do our best to 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:50.840 make sure it works. And if it does work, we 0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:54.040 will then ramp that up together with partners. And we 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:56.760 do nothing on our own. We don't simply write a 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:58.879 check and say could you come back tell us how 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.879 you're doing a year from now. So, for example, the 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:08.040 Congo Basin is the most precious ecosystem imaginable. It sequesters 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:11.919 more carbon than the Amazon and Southeast Asia tropical forest 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:14.960 combined and is massively threatened at the moment, so we 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:17.840 wanted to go in there. But we've got to be honest, 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:20.240 this is a difficult place to work in. Some parts 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:23.879 of these countries are very remote and sometimes governance is 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:26.760 not what it should be. So what we did we said, 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:31.960 we'll gather nine leading institutions, mainly NGOs, but scientific institutions 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:34.359 that have deep roots there. We said, look, we're going 0:20:34.359 --> 0:20:36.880 to finance all of you. You have two jobs. Job 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:39.399 number one is within your own sphere of expertise. You 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:42.000 have to deliver the way we've discussed with you. Thing 0:20:42.080 --> 0:20:44.280 number two, you've got to be part of a team 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:46.600 with us, so that as a team, for the first 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:48.800 time ever, we're able to engage at the head of 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:53.600 state level at any level we like, including with other donors. 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:56.600 We're now working with a number of European donors. Let's 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:58.920 do it together kind of thing. And then we would 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:02.560 have full time per person that would be helping to 0:21:02.680 --> 0:21:07.199 oversee and drive that joint program together. So that's the 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:08.520 sort of way we would work. 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:10.920 And so what happens after twenty thirty when the money 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:11.680 is all spent. 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:15.080 Well, of course, this is the decisive decade, and the 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:18.560 next decade will also be decisive. The reason this is 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:21.080 especially decisive is if we don't get it right this 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:25.879 decade actually next decade, it will be impossibly expensive to 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:29.800 do anything and will quite frankly be too late. So 0:21:29.960 --> 0:21:34.080 I have a full time job from now to twenty thirty. 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:37.320 Clearly there will be all kinds of needs for the 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:38.760 twenty thirties as well. 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:42.320 So one example then would be COP fifteen in December, 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:45.960 which has been called a Paris for nature, set out 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:49.680 this goal of protecting thirty percent of land and oceans 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:53.400 by twenty thirty. Ambitious goal, something that had been called 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:56.400 for for years, and now all these governments have come 0:21:56.440 --> 0:21:59.320 together and agreed upon it. But as soon as that 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:03.440 highlevel goal is agreed upon, it becomes a minefield. The 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:06.920 number of questions about what does that really mean, how 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:09.080 do we measure it? Does it mean no humans can 0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:12.600 do anything in that land? How do countries in different 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:17.320 parts with different capabilities and wealth work on those Is 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:20.119 that something that you're working on to try and create 0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:24.560 clearer understanding of what thirty by thirty would mean, because 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:28.120 it's really important that we not just tackle the climate crisis, 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:31.360 but the biodiversity crisis and the solution sometimes overlap. 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:34.399 Yes, indeed, I mean I think you've clarified the issue 0:22:34.480 --> 0:22:40.120 very helpfully. We need a political commitment based upon good science, 0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:42.880 and that's what we've now got. Getting to thirty will 0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:46.520 be a huge achievement. It will need to double essentially 0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:49.760 protection on land, and it will need to more than 0:22:49.840 --> 0:22:53.480 double protection of the ocean. And we've got seven years 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:56.320 to do it. So this is difficult. And as you say, 0:22:56.560 --> 0:23:01.560 now the real challenge begins, which thirty percent and what 0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:04.360 does it mean to protect? And I think there definitions 0:23:04.400 --> 0:23:06.800 of what it means to protect pretty well. It doesn't 0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:10.080 mean totally and utterly no humans in it. On the contrary, 0:23:10.160 --> 0:23:13.160 in many parts it is indigenous people who live there 0:23:13.520 --> 0:23:17.120 that are responsible for doing a very good job at 0:23:17.119 --> 0:23:19.520 the moment in protection. And part of the way of 0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:24.080 ensuring thirty by thirty is to give indigenous people more 0:23:24.200 --> 0:23:27.840 rights and the ability to protect those rights. So, for example, 0:23:27.880 --> 0:23:32.600 in Montreal, the Canadian government announced a massive increase in 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:36.000 its own protected areas in four areas that are going 0:23:36.040 --> 0:23:39.640 to be overseen by First nations. But as you say, 0:23:39.880 --> 0:23:43.120 country by country governments need to decide do they want 0:23:43.160 --> 0:23:45.080 to really be part of it. If they do want 0:23:45.119 --> 0:23:47.880 to be part of it, we need to bring in 0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:52.040 whatever support we can. And yesterday here in Davos, we 0:23:52.119 --> 0:23:56.040 had ministers from Indonesia, from the Democratic Republic of Congo, 0:23:56.200 --> 0:24:00.200 from Bangladesh, Ghana, together with people like John Kerry and 0:24:00.280 --> 0:24:03.040 the German government, the British government, and then philanthropists like 0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:06.159 Based or so A Fund, the More Foundation and others 0:24:06.560 --> 0:24:10.520 that care about this and basically are setting up a 0:24:10.560 --> 0:24:14.480