WEBVTT - Facebook, Google and Twitter Face a Reckoning in Washington 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.840 Good morning. I'd like to welcome our witnesses today. Before 0:00:02.840 --> 0:00:07.120 I introduced them last week, most of Silicon Valley had 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:10.720 its eye on Washington, d C. On Capitol Hill, a 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:13.440 row of senators took their seats behind a tall wood 0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:18.560 paneled bench. In front of them three lawyers representing Facebook, Twitter, 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:22.560 and Google. I welcome our witnesses. Colin Stretch, vice President 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:27.160 General Counsel at Facebook, Sean Edge, General counsel at Twitter, 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:30.520 and Kent Walker, Senior Vice president General Counsel at Google. 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:33.920 It must have been quite a scene, Sarah Fryer, where 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:36.920 were you? I was in the room and the atmosphere 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.159 was definitely tense. Yeah, the hearing kind of felt like 0:00:40.200 --> 0:00:43.720 a reckoning. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:47.440 the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Please be seating. 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:56.680 The Senate Intelligence Committee was there to ask the tech 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:59.720 companies about fake news and all the other kinds of 0:00:59.720 --> 0:01:02.720 miss leading information that Russia has been accused of spreading 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:07.240 on social networks during the presidential election, stuff like automated accounts, 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:11.360 political ads, and Facebook pages with names like being Patriotic 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:14.720 and Donald Trump America that turned out later to have 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.920 connections to Russia. Congress has been wanting answers for months now. 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:22.760 What was the full extent of Russia's influence campaign on 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:26.200 social media, how many people had liked and shared this content, 0:01:26.319 --> 0:01:30.040 and how many had believed it. Many lawmakers weren't happy 0:01:30.040 --> 0:01:33.119 with the answers they were getting. Mount Senator, I don't 0:01:33.120 --> 0:01:34.320 have it in front of me. It would be happy 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:37.160 to follow up. I don't have the data, but I 0:01:37.200 --> 0:01:39.560 will follow up and I will have to come back 0:01:39.600 --> 0:01:43.160 to you on that, Senator, Sir, We've had this hearing 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:47.720 schedule for months. I find you it's a very very disappointing. 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:13.600 I'm Brad Stone and I'm Sarah Fryar, and this week Undercrypted, 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:18.080 we're talking about the future of three big technology platforms, Facebook, Twitter, 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:20.960 and Google, now that they're in hot water with Congress. 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:23.680 We'll look back at how the public has slowly come 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:27.480 to understand the volume of this manipulation from Russia and 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:30.920 how widely it was circulated on these platforms. We'll also 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:33.400 look ahead at how the companies are promising to address 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:36.040 the problem and whether those measures will live up to 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:44.680 the kind of action Congress is calling for. Stay with us, so, Sarah, 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:46.960 it's been really interesting to watch the story grow over 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:49.440 the last year. It's been exactly a year since the 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:52.799 presidential election, and I remember Mark Zuckerberg calling it a 0:02:52.919 --> 0:02:56.600 quote crazy idea that fake news might have swayed the electorate. 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:00.720 The positions have really changed since then, haven't they. Absolutely. 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:04.720 I mean Facebook all during was very worried about claims 0:03:04.760 --> 0:03:08.560 that it was biased against conservatives, so they really didn't 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:11.799 want to do much with the content on their platform, right, 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:15.079 and they've been giving us more information about how many 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:19.320 people were touched by Russian backed ads, what's the latest, 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:21.440 And clearly they were trying to get out a little 0:03:21.440 --> 0:03:23.720 bit ahead of the hearing and acknowledged that this was 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:26.800 a bigger problem that they had acknowledged before. So remember 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:29.320 back in April, they had this report that said that 0:03:29.400 --> 0:03:34.080 there was some interference in the election, they didn't name names. 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:36.320 Faster forward to a couple of months later and they 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:39.400 actually said that it was in fact Russian interference and 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.839 it included a hundred thousand dollars worth of ads. Now, 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:46.440 last week they expanded the extent to what they knew 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:50.040 by saying that a hundred twenty six million people on 0:03:50.040 --> 0:03:55.920 Facebook were potentially served Russian propaganda and fifteen million more 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:59.280 on Instagram. Now, what was remarkable during these hearings was 0:03:59.320 --> 0:04:02.320 to see so many Democratic senators who clearly count the 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:06.400 tech companies and their employees among their constituencies. I'm thinking 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:10.320 of senators like Kamala Harris or Mark Warner. I really 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.600 reprimand the tech companies for not taking the issue seriously. 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:17.920 Diane Feinstein of California. She thought that the tech companies 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:20.760 just didn't get it. Because I've been very proud and 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:24.279 I know Senator Harris is as well to represent this 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:29.120 tech community from California, but I must say, I don't 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:32.480 think you get it. I have more than a little 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:37.279 bit of frustration that many of us on this committee 0:04:37.560 --> 0:04:40.880 have been raising this issue since the beginning of his year, 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:46.480 and our claims were frankly blown off by the leaderships 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:50.960 of your companies. Dismissed, said, there's no possibility, nothing like 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:54.440 this happening, nothing to see here. It was really interesting 0:04:54.480 --> 0:04:58.919 to see these senators take that stance, because they definitely 0:04:58.920 --> 0:05:02.279 get a lot of their donations for their campaigns from tech. 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:06.000 But this is something that across the board in Congress, 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:10.080 we saw senators get very openly angry. Now, the tech 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:12.520 companies have announced a series of measures to deal with 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:16.560 this problem. Mostly they have to do with um partnering 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:19.560 with fact checking organizations and hiring more people to go 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:22.960 manually review ads and news stories. How much of a 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:26.000 solution can that be? Well, I wrote a story last 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:31.520 week that highlights just the incredible difficulty of solving these 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:33.880 problems that computers can't solve yet. And when you throw 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:37.240 humans at the problem, you have to deal with a 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:41.440 whole gray area of what should and shouldn't be allowed. 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:45.279 In the case of fact checking, the volume of fake 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:48.440 news stories is just too large for their third parties 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:52.200 to handle and rowdy, you know, with with Facebook saying 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:55.520 they would hire ten thousand more people, including contractors for 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:59.640 their safety and security team. The Twitter employee that the 0:05:59.760 --> 0:06:02.600 lee did Trump's account on their last day of work 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:07.120 highlights how how tricky it can be to put the 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:09.719 fate of your solfisal network in the hands of third 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:14.200 party contractors. Right there can be unintended consequences. Now, one 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.440 of the answers we heard most frequently during the hearings 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:20.839 was I don't know, We'll get back to you. And 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:22.880 you know, there were there were senators. I think It 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:27.600 was Mark Warner who said it kind of strained credulity 0:06:27.640 --> 0:06:29.800 that these tech companies didn't know that any of this 0:06:29.920 --> 0:06:35.400 was really happening. Candidly, your companies no more about Americans 0:06:35.480 --> 0:06:38.520 in many ways than the state's government does. And the 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:40.839 idea that you had no idea of any of this 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:48.640 was happening strange my credibility. The companies were consistently dodging questions, 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:50.520 and in fact I made a list and found that 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:53.320 there were more than twenty things that they told senators 0:06:53.360 --> 0:06:56.240 they would get back to them on. They have a 0:06:56.240 --> 0:07:00.360 lot more investigating to do, they reassured everyone. I guess 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:05.839 shouldn't say reassure. They confirmed to all members of Congress 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:08.360 that they had not finished their investigations, as there may 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:15.680 be a lot more to find. Did the hearing really 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:17.760 give us a better idea of what was happening on 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:21.680 the platform during the election. Well, you know that about 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:25.400 this group called the Internet Research Agency? What who are there? 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:30.880 They're they're from Russia. Basically, what they want to do 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:37.640 is spread memes that stir up controversy. They're trying, you know, 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.760 when you troll somebody, you're trying to get into their head. 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:44.360 A little bit and get them angry, agitate them, and 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:48.960 the ads and posts from the Internet Research Agency just 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:53.000 touched all the hot button issues in the US that 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:57.440 really get people riled up, from gun control to immigration 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:02.760 to um terrorists, him all these things that you know. 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:07.600 In some cases they organized protests on both sides of 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:11.480 an argument and people actually showed up. Sarah, how much 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:14.600 did it cost these internet troll farms to make this 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:18.440 kind of an impact on the election? On Facebook? A 0:08:18.520 --> 0:08:21.520 hundred thousand, forty six thousand of which was before the election. 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:25.840 On the other platforms even less and compared to the 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:29.560 bulk of their revenues, it was nothing. So so they 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.679 spent forty six thousand dollars. How much did how much 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:39.840 did the Clinton and Trump campaign spend on Facebook during 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:43.559 I assume before the election? Are organized than than the 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:48.440 other group? Uh? Approximately combined approximately eighty one million dollars 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:55.400 eighty one million and before the election. Yes, so eight 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:59.000 one million. I'm not a great mathematician, but forty six thousand, 0:08:59.160 --> 0:09:02.240 eighty one mill you in would that be like five 0:09:02.840 --> 0:09:10.720 one thousands of one percent? Senator Mansion wasn't the only 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:13.000 senator trying to get at the question of how much 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:16.360 the companies had profited from Russia backed activity on the site. 0:09:16.679 --> 0:09:21.000 Kamala Harris, Senator for California, asked about it too, from 0:09:21.040 --> 0:09:23.880 the Russian sources. That's not my question actually, as American 0:09:23.920 --> 0:09:27.520 advertising or legitimate advertising. How much money did you make 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:33.880 from legitimate advertising that ran alongside the Russia propaganda? A 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:35.800 diminimous amount, Senator. I don't have it in front of me. 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:37.839 I would be happy to follow up. Okay, what about 0:09:37.840 --> 0:09:41.439 for Twitter? I don't have the data, but I will 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:44.520 follow up and have you not looked into that? I believe? 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:47.480 Are you asking how much advertising revenue we made for 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:52.560 the period? Totally? I'm asking how much advertising revenue did 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:58.480 you receive from legitimate advertisers that advertised alongside or in 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:03.160 connection with Russian properly Ganda. We haven't done that analysis, 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:06.000 but we'll follow up and work on that. Okay, what 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:09.280 about Facebook? The same is truy for Facebook, Senitor, you've 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:12.360 not done that calculation. We've not done that analysis. I 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.440 find that difficult to understand because it would seem to 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:17.840 me that we would figure out how much you've profited 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:26.319 from Russian propaganda on your on your platforms. What Senator 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:28.760 Harris is getting at here, and which has the social 0:10:28.800 --> 0:10:33.000 media companies understandably worried, is that Congress is concerned about 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:35.960 fake news could result in new regulations or laws that 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:39.080 might impact their business. Sarah, how real of a worry 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:43.160 is that Facebook has been pretty smart about redirecting the 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:48.440 conversation to ads, and that's something where they have said 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:52.199 that they're open to regulation, and Google and Twitter have agreed, Yes, sir, 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:55.679 that's a really good distinction between political ads, which you 0:10:55.720 --> 0:10:58.080 know might be easier to regulate, Um, and then the 0:10:58.160 --> 0:11:00.520 unpaid content that we all see in our feeds on 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:04.240 Twitter and Facebook. What's the chance that that gets regulated? 0:11:04.320 --> 0:11:07.080 What would the implications be for Facebook's business if it was. 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:11.880 Although they said how angry they were about the nature 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:15.880 of what was posted by Russia, even Facebook kept coming 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:19.480 back to the fact that it wasn't against their internal policies, 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:23.920 that the only problem with the ads from Russia and 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.480 the content from Russia was that it came from fake accounts. 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:30.800 Some of the senators have agreed with you, Um that 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:33.880 ads were you know, a small part of the problem, 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:37.320 but that you know, fake news stories, you know from Facebook, 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:41.080 from YouTube, you know from Twitter really had the potential 0:11:41.160 --> 0:11:44.480 to change people's minds. Here Senator Ron Widen from Oregon 0:11:44.600 --> 0:11:47.880 making that point. Now, I'm of the view ads or 0:11:47.920 --> 0:11:52.280 a small part of a much bigger problem. Fake users 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:56.240 posting stories on Facebook, videos on YouTube, links on Twitter 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:59.839 can be used by foreign and domestic enemies to under 0:12:00.040 --> 0:12:05.880 line our society. You need to stop paying lip service 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:11.080 to shutting down bad actors using these accounts. Now, Sarah, 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:13.840 why would the tech companies be scared? Listening to Senator 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:17.520 Widen here, I I think that's something that scares people 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:21.080 around the world. You know, you don't want the government 0:12:21.200 --> 0:12:25.360 deciding what is fake or not fake, especially when you 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:30.400 have a president who considers uh, some mainstream media to 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:34.440 be fake news. It's it's really a dangerous game to play, 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:38.319 and that's why Facebook has outsourced it's fact checking to 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:41.720 third parties. They don't want to play it either. I mean, 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:43.719 it seems to me that, frankly, this is as much 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:47.760 a technology company problem as it is a problem inherent 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:51.000 to our media environment. Right now, You've just you have frankly, 0:12:51.040 --> 0:12:53.800 credible news sources on the right and the left which 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:57.920 are feeding sometimes stories that feel a little bit like propaganda. 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:00.840 Or or could be misleading into these social networks where 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:03.800 then gets propagated pretty widely. There are a lot of 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:07.160 questions that the hearing is about what actually is fake news? 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:10.480 How do you define it? And the answer from Facebook 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:12.960 is that, well, you know, this is stuff that is 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:18.599 probably false, but you're right that the bigger problem is 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:22.480 a lot of misleading context and sensationalistic content, content that 0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:28.920 gives information without its proper context. And there's nothing that 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:32.120 anyone will be able to do about that, right, and 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:35.800 yet the big tech companies are big, they're visible, and 0:13:35.800 --> 0:13:39.600 their targets and and so here Senator Diane Feinstein at 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:43.200 the hearing really pointing the finger directly a Twitter, Facebook 0:13:43.200 --> 0:13:45.160 and Google and saying, you know, you're the only ones 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:48.320 in a position to do something about this. You have 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:53.079 a huge problem on your hand. You've created these platforms 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:57.320 and now they are being misused, and you have to 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:03.120 be the ones to do something about um, or we will. 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:13.120 Several Senators are now calling for action for new laws 0:14:13.160 --> 0:14:15.840 to regulate the tech companies, as well as consequences for 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:19.120 countries that medal in US politics. That's what we're going 0:14:19.160 --> 0:14:22.960 to get into next. Sarah, thank you, Okay, so at 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:25.320 the hearing, it was clear that some senators wanted to 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:28.280 take action against the social networks or see the company's 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:32.240 proposed changes themselves to stop the circulation of false or 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:36.480 misleading information. Senator Angus King for Maine said there should 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:39.840 be consequences for the hostile states doing the meddling. The 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:42.200 third thing that we have to determine, I think, is 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:44.320 that this country has to have some kind of cyber 0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:49.120 warfare deterrent capacity. Right now, there's no price to be 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:54.920 paid for meddling in our democracy, and our adversaries have 0:14:55.040 --> 0:14:58.000 to understand that if they're going to understake a campaign 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:01.000 like this, there will be a price to be paid. 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:04.960 There will Republican Senator Richard Byrne. Democratic Senator Diane Feinstein 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:09.440 called it a national security risk. In reality, though, regulating 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:13.000 content on these sprawling social platforms is hard, much harder 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.000 than we might think. Josh Breusteen, that's something you've been 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:18.840 writing about recently. Why is it so difficult to weed 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:22.880 out all this bad information? Well, there's two distinctions that 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:26.400 it's hard to make um on social networks. The first 0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:30.320 is whether or not something's political, and the second is 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:33.280 whether or not something is an advertisement. It's not quite 0:15:33.320 --> 0:15:35.440 as simple as just looking at television and knowing when 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:38.440 the commercial breaks start, right, and what's in What's really 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:42.560 insidious is that message can start as one thing political 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:46.000 activity or speech, and then transform into advertising. Right, tell 0:15:46.080 --> 0:15:49.360 us how that works. Yeah, that's actually sort of the 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:53.760 preferred model for advertising on social networks. You would see 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.760 a message, something that a group would post onto its 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:01.000 personal Facebook or Twitter account. Um, that would just be 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:04.520 a message, and then they'd pay the social network to 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:07.440 promote it, to show it to people who aren't following 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.760 them or might not see it otherwise. Then it's an ad. 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:13.640 Then what happens is one of those people might retweet 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.560 it or reposted or comment on it, and at that 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:19.280 point it just becomes a message. Again. So the same 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:23.080 message goes through several different statuses over its life cycle. 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:26.200 I can't imagine how you begin to to regulate that, 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:29.560 you know, And here's Mark Warner, Senator from Virginia, making 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:32.600 basically the same point that this stuff is much harder 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:36.800 than it looks. For Facebook, much of the attention has 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:41.080 been focused on the paid ads that Russian trolls targeted 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:46.160 to Americans. However, these ads are just the timp of 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:50.600 a very large iceberg. The real story is the amount 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:55.760 of misinformation in divisive content that was pushed for free 0:16:56.440 --> 0:17:00.080 on Russian back pages, which was then spread widely on 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:04.160 news feeds of tens of millions of Americans. So, Josh, 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:07.000 how much are tech companies willing to do to track 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:11.080 this misinformation and police their own platforms. I think the 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:16.000 tech platforms would love for this conversation to revolve completely 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.880 around advertisements. To the extent that they can offer some 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:25.119 sort of self regulation involving the paid advertisements on their platforms, 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:28.960 the better for them. Once they start talking about regulating 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:32.200 what they call organic content, those are those first messages 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:34.760 that someone just posts to their own account, then they're 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:37.200 going to have a real big problem on their hands. 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:40.720 One of the things that they seem to want to 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:43.600 do is rely on users to flag or report content 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:46.560 that looks suspicious. You know, how how how big a 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:49.280 part of the solution can that be? Yeah? I think 0:17:49.280 --> 0:17:53.040 all the solutions do involve some human interaction to a 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:57.840 certain extent. But these are huge, sprawling platforms. There's lots 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:01.720 of people on them, tagging things for various reasons. They're 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.159 not going to manage to get everything, and also what 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:06.640 you're going to find is people tagging things that maybe 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:09.600 they just don't like or that they want to go 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:13.040 away for some other reason. So it feels almost lame 0:18:13.160 --> 0:18:15.879 to bring up the business question when we're talking about 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.919 the future of democracy basically. But Josh, what kind of 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:24.280 an impact with regulations have on revenues on profitability for 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:27.000 these social networks? Yeah, I think it really depends on 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:31.639 how wide any future regulations go. If there's something relatively 0:18:31.680 --> 0:18:35.600 targeted that says you have to tag political advertising on 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:38.960 the websites, I don't think that would really impact the business. 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:43.040 It probably wouldn't even really impact the business for political ads. 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:47.480 But once Congress starts doing things like trying to regulate 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:52.200 so called organic speech on the site, that could really 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:55.679 impact the shape of a Facebook in a way that 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.640 might also shape its underlying business, and I think that's 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:03.399 really what the company's want to avoid. Okay, thank you, Josh. 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:08.920 Thanks red So because it's so hard to trace content 0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:12.000 as it moves across a huge platform like YouTube or Facebook, 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.840 it's also extremely difficult to regulate effectively. But that hasn't 0:19:15.840 --> 0:19:19.160 stopped some senators from proposing new rules, right Garrett to Bink, 0:19:19.560 --> 0:19:23.480 that's true. Hi Brad, Hi Garrett. Uh So, you're our 0:19:23.520 --> 0:19:25.919 our New York based reporter and you're at the hearings 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:30.320 last week. Tell us about one proposed piece of legislation 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:33.119 that came up, the Honest Ads Act. You know, this 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:35.520 is a bill that's put forward by Mark Warner. He's 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:37.960 a name that's come up in this conversation already, as 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:40.960 well as Amy Klobach are another Democratic senator, and they 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:43.920 actually got John McCain, the Republican, to sign on with 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:46.560 them to support. And what the Honest Ads Act is, 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:48.920 what it tries to do is take the rules that 0:19:49.000 --> 0:19:53.800 already applied to radio and TV political advertisements and require 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:58.040 online or digital ads to use those same rules. Okay, 0:19:58.040 --> 0:20:00.480 so when we hear at the end of a radio ad, 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:04.040 you know, I'm I'm Joe Mansion and I approved this message, 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.440 that kind of same disclosure will be required for internet 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:10.359 ads exactly. So when you see a video or a 0:20:10.400 --> 0:20:13.879 display ad on Facebook or Twitter or even on you know, 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:16.919 a newspaper's website, it'll have to say similarly, you know, 0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:20.399 paid for by etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. But what they'll also 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:23.520 have to include as if this bill as it is 0:20:23.560 --> 0:20:26.239 goes forward, is how many views it got who it 0:20:26.320 --> 0:20:30.600 was targeted to? And it's not just specific campaigns or 0:20:30.640 --> 0:20:33.960 candidates that will need to be disclosed. It's any issue 0:20:34.400 --> 0:20:37.679 of legislative national importance. So this could even be anything 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:40.680 related to such a hot button no controversial issues such 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:43.919 as gun control, that the platforms would have to go 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:46.720 and make sure that people paying for those advertisements. You know, 0:20:46.800 --> 0:20:50.159 we know who they are. Now. Some senators suggested that 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:53.520 it was almost a patriotic duty for the tech companies 0:20:53.600 --> 0:20:56.840 to support this bill. Here's Joe Manchion talking to the 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:00.760 representatives from the tech companies. Then you asked this, Are 0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:03.760 you or your CEO is concerned about the threatened damage 0:21:03.760 --> 0:21:06.359 your companies can do the US with your far reaching 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:09.840 power and you have been identified as the major distributors 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:15.399 of fake news? Or is it basically just a business model? So, Garrett, 0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:17.919 one of the things that this bill does is is 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:20.680 treat these internet platforms in the same way as news 0:21:20.800 --> 0:21:24.119 organizations are treated. Now, these companies have never wanted to 0:21:24.160 --> 0:21:26.920 be regulated in the same way that news organizations are. 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:30.680 How nervous does this make them? Well, you know they 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:33.240 are in a position of trying to push back against 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:35.399 everything right. I mean, the last thing that they want 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:37.560 is to sort of have to be the ones who 0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:40.959 can choose, you know, what is political speech, to censor that. 0:21:41.000 --> 0:21:42.720 I mean, they're very careful about that. They want to 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:44.960 be neutral platforms. That's what they've always said they are, 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:46.960 and it looks like, you know, we are coming to 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:50.440 a point where they can't hold that line, and that's 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:53.719 why we're seeing some resistance here. What are the chances 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:56.520 that the Honest Ads Act passes? It's a good question. 0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:58.800 I mean we are seeing, you know, at the hearings 0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:02.640 a lot of Democratic senators and and UH representatives as 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:06.159 well speaking out seemingly in support of it. The hope 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:08.440 from the sponsors of the bill that after these these 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:11.520 hearings um that a lot of other people would jump 0:22:11.560 --> 0:22:13.280 in and say, yeah, of course we need this, But 0:22:13.359 --> 0:22:15.440 we haven't quite seen that. And this is the only 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:18.480 bill that's been proposed at this point. Right there's another 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:22.760 bill that relates to um sex trafficking online that could 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:25.439 affect the tech companies we all. We also know that 0:22:25.480 --> 0:22:29.040 Senator Dian Feinstein said she's working on something that hasn't 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:31.800 necessarily come out yet. She just said during the hearings 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:33.879 that her staff are working on a bill that would 0:22:33.880 --> 0:22:37.639 require tech companies to tell a law enforcement when they 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:40.199 see illegal activity on their platforms, but we don't know 0:22:40.280 --> 0:22:43.400 exactly what that's going to look like. So, Garrett, were 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.879 ten years into the social networking wave or twenty years 0:22:46.880 --> 0:22:50.560 into the into the Internet revolution, and these kinds of regulations, 0:22:51.000 --> 0:22:54.199 you know, they don't exist. Now, how difficult will it 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:57.080 be for these senators to deliver on their promises of 0:22:57.119 --> 0:22:59.640 the past week. I mean, the main goal that they're 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:02.840 trying to do here is to make sure that foreign 0:23:02.920 --> 0:23:07.440 actors aren't meddling in US elections. Right, and even if 0:23:07.480 --> 0:23:10.439 you require Facebook or you know whoever is buying this 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:14.000 advertisement to say it was paid for by X, if 0:23:14.040 --> 0:23:16.840 you're really trying to be sneaky, there's always ways around it. Right. 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:20.000 This is the Internet, this is technology. They can use VPNs, 0:23:20.040 --> 0:23:22.400 they can use currencies that are not you know, if 0:23:22.400 --> 0:23:24.119 this is if these are Russian actors, they can use 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:26.800 currencies that are not from Russia. There's all these ways 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:28.200 that you can get around it. And that's what the 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:31.000 technology companies are saying. They said, you know, the representative 0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:32.880 from Pritter even use the phrase whack a mole when 0:23:32.880 --> 0:23:35.560 it came to trying to stop, you know, foreign actors 0:23:35.600 --> 0:23:40.280 from using nefarious ways to get onto social networks. Yeah. 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:43.480 I do hate to end this conversation on a pessimistic note, 0:23:43.520 --> 0:23:45.639 but but it has been true throughout the history of 0:23:45.680 --> 0:23:49.800 the Internet. Bad actors do find a way around bottlenecks 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:54.120 instilled by regulation. Ye it looks like that. All right, Well, 0:23:54.160 --> 0:24:02.679 thank you, Garrett Vinc, Thank you, and that's it for 0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:06.080 this week's episode of Decrypted. Thanks for listening. Do you 0:24:06.119 --> 0:24:08.080 have a story about fake news that has affected you 0:24:08.080 --> 0:24:11.360 to send us an email at Decrypted at Bloomberg dot net, 0:24:11.880 --> 0:24:14.360 or you can reach us on Twitter. I'm Garrett Vink 0:24:14.400 --> 0:24:16.600 and I'm at Garrett D. That's g E R R 0:24:16.720 --> 0:24:20.280 I T D and I'm at at brad Stone. If 0:24:20.280 --> 0:24:22.879 you haven't already, please subscribe to our show wherever you 0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:25.560 get your podcasts. And while you're there, I hope you 0:24:25.640 --> 0:24:27.439