1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: Good morning. I'd like to welcome our witnesses today. Before 2 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: I introduced them last week, most of Silicon Valley had 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,720 Speaker 1: its eye on Washington, d C. On Capitol Hill, a 4 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: row of senators took their seats behind a tall wood 5 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: paneled bench. In front of them three lawyers representing Facebook, Twitter, 6 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: and Google. I welcome our witnesses. Colin Stretch, vice President 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 1: General Counsel at Facebook, Sean Edge, General counsel at Twitter, 8 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: and Kent Walker, Senior Vice president General Counsel at Google. 9 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: It must have been quite a scene, Sarah Fryer, where 10 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: were you? I was in the room and the atmosphere 11 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: was definitely tense. Yeah, the hearing kind of felt like 12 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: a reckoning. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, 13 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:47,440 Speaker 1: the whole truth, and nothing but the truth? Please be seating. 14 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: The Senate Intelligence Committee was there to ask the tech 15 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: companies about fake news and all the other kinds of 16 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:02,720 Speaker 1: miss leading information that Russia has been accused of spreading 17 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: on social networks during the presidential election, stuff like automated accounts, 18 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: political ads, and Facebook pages with names like being Patriotic 19 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: and Donald Trump America that turned out later to have 20 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 1: connections to Russia. Congress has been wanting answers for months now. 21 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: What was the full extent of Russia's influence campaign on 22 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: social media, how many people had liked and shared this content, 23 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: and how many had believed it. Many lawmakers weren't happy 24 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:33,119 Speaker 1: with the answers they were getting. Mount Senator, I don't 25 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 1: have it in front of me. It would be happy 26 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: to follow up. I don't have the data, but I 27 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,560 Speaker 1: will follow up and I will have to come back 28 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: to you on that, Senator, Sir, We've had this hearing 29 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: schedule for months. I find you it's a very very disappointing. 30 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: I'm Brad Stone and I'm Sarah Fryar, and this week Undercrypted, 31 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:18,080 Speaker 1: we're talking about the future of three big technology platforms, Facebook, Twitter, 32 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: and Google, now that they're in hot water with Congress. 33 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 1: We'll look back at how the public has slowly come 34 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: to understand the volume of this manipulation from Russia and 35 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,920 Speaker 1: how widely it was circulated on these platforms. We'll also 36 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 1: look ahead at how the companies are promising to address 37 00:02:33,440 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: the problem and whether those measures will live up to 38 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: the kind of action Congress is calling for. Stay with us, so, Sarah, 39 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 1: it's been really interesting to watch the story grow over 40 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: the last year. It's been exactly a year since the 41 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,799 Speaker 1: presidential election, and I remember Mark Zuckerberg calling it a 42 00:02:52,919 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: quote crazy idea that fake news might have swayed the electorate. 43 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: The positions have really changed since then, haven't they. Absolutely. 44 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: I mean Facebook all during was very worried about claims 45 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: that it was biased against conservatives, so they really didn't 46 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,799 Speaker 1: want to do much with the content on their platform, right, 47 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 1: and they've been giving us more information about how many 48 00:03:15,200 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: people were touched by Russian backed ads, what's the latest, 49 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 1: And clearly they were trying to get out a little 50 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 1: bit ahead of the hearing and acknowledged that this was 51 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,800 Speaker 1: a bigger problem that they had acknowledged before. So remember 52 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 1: back in April, they had this report that said that 53 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:34,080 Speaker 1: there was some interference in the election, they didn't name names. 54 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: Faster forward to a couple of months later and they 55 00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 1: actually said that it was in fact Russian interference and 56 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,839 Speaker 1: it included a hundred thousand dollars worth of ads. Now, 57 00:03:42,920 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: last week they expanded the extent to what they knew 58 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: by saying that a hundred twenty six million people on 59 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: Facebook were potentially served Russian propaganda and fifteen million more 60 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: on Instagram. Now, what was remarkable during these hearings was 61 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: to see so many Democratic senators who clearly count the 62 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: tech companies and their employees among their constituencies. I'm thinking 63 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: of senators like Kamala Harris or Mark Warner. I really 64 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: reprimand the tech companies for not taking the issue seriously. 65 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: Diane Feinstein of California. She thought that the tech companies 66 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: just didn't get it. Because I've been very proud and 67 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: I know Senator Harris is as well to represent this 68 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: tech community from California, but I must say, I don't 69 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: think you get it. I have more than a little 70 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: bit of frustration that many of us on this committee 71 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: have been raising this issue since the beginning of his year, 72 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: and our claims were frankly blown off by the leaderships 73 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: of your companies. Dismissed, said, there's no possibility, nothing like 74 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: this happening, nothing to see here. It was really interesting 75 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 1: to see these senators take that stance, because they definitely 76 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: get a lot of their donations for their campaigns from tech. 77 00:05:02,480 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: But this is something that across the board in Congress, 78 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 1: we saw senators get very openly angry. Now, the tech 79 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: companies have announced a series of measures to deal with 80 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: this problem. Mostly they have to do with um partnering 81 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: with fact checking organizations and hiring more people to go 82 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: manually review ads and news stories. How much of a 83 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: solution can that be? Well, I wrote a story last 84 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: week that highlights just the incredible difficulty of solving these 85 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: problems that computers can't solve yet. And when you throw 86 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: humans at the problem, you have to deal with a 87 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 1: whole gray area of what should and shouldn't be allowed. 88 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,279 Speaker 1: In the case of fact checking, the volume of fake 89 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: news stories is just too large for their third parties 90 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: to handle and rowdy, you know, with with Facebook saying 91 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: they would hire ten thousand more people, including contractors for 92 00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: their safety and security team. The Twitter employee that the 93 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: lee did Trump's account on their last day of work 94 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: highlights how how tricky it can be to put the 95 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: fate of your solfisal network in the hands of third 96 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: party contractors. Right there can be unintended consequences. Now, one 97 00:06:14,279 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: of the answers we heard most frequently during the hearings 98 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: was I don't know, We'll get back to you. And 99 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: you know, there were there were senators. I think It 100 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:27,600 Speaker 1: was Mark Warner who said it kind of strained credulity 101 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 1: that these tech companies didn't know that any of this 102 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: was really happening. Candidly, your companies no more about Americans 103 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: in many ways than the state's government does. And the 104 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,839 Speaker 1: idea that you had no idea of any of this 105 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: was happening strange my credibility. The companies were consistently dodging questions, 106 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: and in fact I made a list and found that 107 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:53,320 Speaker 1: there were more than twenty things that they told senators 108 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: they would get back to them on. They have a 109 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 1: lot more investigating to do, they reassured everyone. I guess 110 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: shouldn't say reassure. They confirmed to all members of Congress 111 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 1: that they had not finished their investigations, as there may 112 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: be a lot more to find. Did the hearing really 113 00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: give us a better idea of what was happening on 114 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: the platform during the election. Well, you know that about 115 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: this group called the Internet Research Agency? What who are there? 116 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: They're they're from Russia. Basically, what they want to do 117 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: is spread memes that stir up controversy. They're trying, you know, 118 00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: when you troll somebody, you're trying to get into their head. 119 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: A little bit and get them angry, agitate them, and 120 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,960 Speaker 1: the ads and posts from the Internet Research Agency just 121 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: touched all the hot button issues in the US that 122 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: really get people riled up, from gun control to immigration 123 00:07:57,760 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: to um terrorists, him all these things that you know. 124 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: In some cases they organized protests on both sides of 125 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: an argument and people actually showed up. Sarah, how much 126 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: did it cost these internet troll farms to make this 127 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:18,440 Speaker 1: kind of an impact on the election? On Facebook? A 128 00:08:18,520 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: hundred thousand, forty six thousand of which was before the election. 129 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 1: On the other platforms even less and compared to the 130 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: bulk of their revenues, it was nothing. So so they 131 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 1: spent forty six thousand dollars. How much did how much 132 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 1: did the Clinton and Trump campaign spend on Facebook during 133 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 1: I assume before the election? Are organized than than the 134 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: other group? Uh? Approximately combined approximately eighty one million dollars 135 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: eighty one million and before the election. Yes, so eight 136 00:08:55,480 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: one million. I'm not a great mathematician, but forty six thousand, 137 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: eighty one mill you in would that be like five 138 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: one thousands of one percent? Senator Mansion wasn't the only 139 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: senator trying to get at the question of how much 140 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 1: the companies had profited from Russia backed activity on the site. 141 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: Kamala Harris, Senator for California, asked about it too, from 142 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: the Russian sources. That's not my question actually, as American 143 00:09:23,920 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 1: advertising or legitimate advertising. How much money did you make 144 00:09:27,559 --> 00:09:33,880 Speaker 1: from legitimate advertising that ran alongside the Russia propaganda? A 145 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: diminimous amount, Senator. I don't have it in front of me. 146 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:37,839 Speaker 1: I would be happy to follow up. Okay, what about 147 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,439 Speaker 1: for Twitter? I don't have the data, but I will 148 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: follow up and have you not looked into that? I believe? 149 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: Are you asking how much advertising revenue we made for 150 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:52,560 Speaker 1: the period? Totally? I'm asking how much advertising revenue did 151 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: you receive from legitimate advertisers that advertised alongside or in 152 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: connection with Russian properly Ganda. We haven't done that analysis, 153 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: but we'll follow up and work on that. Okay, what 154 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 1: about Facebook? The same is truy for Facebook, Senitor, you've 155 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,360 Speaker 1: not done that calculation. We've not done that analysis. I 156 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 1: find that difficult to understand because it would seem to 157 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: me that we would figure out how much you've profited 158 00:10:18,080 --> 00:10:26,319 Speaker 1: from Russian propaganda on your on your platforms. What Senator 159 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: Harris is getting at here, and which has the social 160 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: media companies understandably worried, is that Congress is concerned about 161 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: fake news could result in new regulations or laws that 162 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,080 Speaker 1: might impact their business. Sarah, how real of a worry 163 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 1: is that Facebook has been pretty smart about redirecting the 164 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: conversation to ads, and that's something where they have said 165 00:10:48,440 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 1: that they're open to regulation, and Google and Twitter have agreed, Yes, sir, 166 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: that's a really good distinction between political ads, which you 167 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: know might be easier to regulate, Um, and then the 168 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 1: unpaid content that we all see in our feeds on 169 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: Twitter and Facebook. What's the chance that that gets regulated? 170 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: What would the implications be for Facebook's business if it was. 171 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: Although they said how angry they were about the nature 172 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: of what was posted by Russia, even Facebook kept coming 173 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: back to the fact that it wasn't against their internal policies, 174 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: that the only problem with the ads from Russia and 175 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: the content from Russia was that it came from fake accounts. 176 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: Some of the senators have agreed with you, Um that 177 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 1: ads were you know, a small part of the problem, 178 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: but that you know, fake news stories, you know from Facebook, 179 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 1: from YouTube, you know from Twitter really had the potential 180 00:11:41,160 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: to change people's minds. Here Senator Ron Widen from Oregon 181 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 1: making that point. Now, I'm of the view ads or 182 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 1: a small part of a much bigger problem. Fake users 183 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: posting stories on Facebook, videos on YouTube, links on Twitter 184 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,839 Speaker 1: can be used by foreign and domestic enemies to under 185 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: line our society. You need to stop paying lip service 186 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: to shutting down bad actors using these accounts. Now, Sarah, 187 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 1: why would the tech companies be scared? Listening to Senator 188 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: Widen here, I I think that's something that scares people 189 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: around the world. You know, you don't want the government 190 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: deciding what is fake or not fake, especially when you 191 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: have a president who considers uh, some mainstream media to 192 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: be fake news. It's it's really a dangerous game to play, 193 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:38,319 Speaker 1: and that's why Facebook has outsourced it's fact checking to 194 00:12:38,440 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: third parties. They don't want to play it either. I mean, 195 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:43,719 Speaker 1: it seems to me that, frankly, this is as much 196 00:12:43,760 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: a technology company problem as it is a problem inherent 197 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: to our media environment. Right now, You've just you have frankly, 198 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: credible news sources on the right and the left which 199 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: are feeding sometimes stories that feel a little bit like propaganda. 200 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: Or or could be misleading into these social networks where 201 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 1: then gets propagated pretty widely. There are a lot of 202 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: questions that the hearing is about what actually is fake news? 203 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,480 Speaker 1: How do you define it? And the answer from Facebook 204 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 1: is that, well, you know, this is stuff that is 205 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:18,599 Speaker 1: probably false, but you're right that the bigger problem is 206 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: a lot of misleading context and sensationalistic content, content that 207 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: gives information without its proper context. And there's nothing that 208 00:13:29,440 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: anyone will be able to do about that, right, and 209 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: yet the big tech companies are big, they're visible, and 210 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: their targets and and so here Senator Diane Feinstein at 211 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: the hearing really pointing the finger directly a Twitter, Facebook 212 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: and Google and saying, you know, you're the only ones 213 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: in a position to do something about this. You have 214 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 1: a huge problem on your hand. You've created these platforms 215 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: and now they are being misused, and you have to 216 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 1: be the ones to do something about um, or we will. 217 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 1: Several Senators are now calling for action for new laws 218 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: to regulate the tech companies, as well as consequences for 219 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 1: countries that medal in US politics. That's what we're going 220 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: to get into next. Sarah, thank you, Okay, so at 221 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: the hearing, it was clear that some senators wanted to 222 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: take action against the social networks or see the company's 223 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: proposed changes themselves to stop the circulation of false or 224 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: misleading information. Senator Angus King for Maine said there should 225 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: be consequences for the hostile states doing the meddling. The 226 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: third thing that we have to determine, I think, is 227 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: that this country has to have some kind of cyber 228 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: warfare deterrent capacity. Right now, there's no price to be 229 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: paid for meddling in our democracy, and our adversaries have 230 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 1: to understand that if they're going to understake a campaign 231 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: like this, there will be a price to be paid. 232 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: There will Republican Senator Richard Byrne. Democratic Senator Diane Feinstein 233 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: called it a national security risk. In reality, though, regulating 234 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 1: content on these sprawling social platforms is hard, much harder 235 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: than we might think. Josh Breusteen, that's something you've been 236 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: writing about recently. Why is it so difficult to weed 237 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: out all this bad information? Well, there's two distinctions that 238 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: it's hard to make um on social networks. The first 239 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: is whether or not something's political, and the second is 240 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:33,280 Speaker 1: whether or not something is an advertisement. It's not quite 241 00:15:33,320 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: as simple as just looking at television and knowing when 242 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: the commercial breaks start, right, and what's in What's really 243 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 1: insidious is that message can start as one thing political 244 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: activity or speech, and then transform into advertising. Right, tell 245 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: us how that works. Yeah, that's actually sort of the 246 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: preferred model for advertising on social networks. You would see 247 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: a message, something that a group would post onto its 248 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,000 Speaker 1: personal Facebook or Twitter account. Um, that would just be 249 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: a message, and then they'd pay the social network to 250 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: promote it, to show it to people who aren't following 251 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 1: them or might not see it otherwise. Then it's an ad. 252 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: Then what happens is one of those people might retweet 253 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: it or reposted or comment on it, and at that 254 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: point it just becomes a message. Again. So the same 255 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: message goes through several different statuses over its life cycle. 256 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: I can't imagine how you begin to to regulate that, 257 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: you know, And here's Mark Warner, Senator from Virginia, making 258 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: basically the same point that this stuff is much harder 259 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: than it looks. For Facebook, much of the attention has 260 00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 1: been focused on the paid ads that Russian trolls targeted 261 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: to Americans. However, these ads are just the timp of 262 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: a very large iceberg. The real story is the amount 263 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:55,760 Speaker 1: of misinformation in divisive content that was pushed for free 264 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: on Russian back pages, which was then spread widely on 265 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 1: news feeds of tens of millions of Americans. So, Josh, 266 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: how much are tech companies willing to do to track 267 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: this misinformation and police their own platforms. I think the 268 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: tech platforms would love for this conversation to revolve completely 269 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 1: around advertisements. To the extent that they can offer some 270 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:25,119 Speaker 1: sort of self regulation involving the paid advertisements on their platforms, 271 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: the better for them. Once they start talking about regulating 272 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 1: what they call organic content, those are those first messages 273 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: that someone just posts to their own account, then they're 274 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,200 Speaker 1: going to have a real big problem on their hands. 275 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: One of the things that they seem to want to 276 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: do is rely on users to flag or report content 277 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: that looks suspicious. You know, how how how big a 278 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: part of the solution can that be? Yeah? I think 279 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 1: all the solutions do involve some human interaction to a 280 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: certain extent. But these are huge, sprawling platforms. There's lots 281 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: of people on them, tagging things for various reasons. They're 282 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,159 Speaker 1: not going to manage to get everything, and also what 283 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 1: you're going to find is people tagging things that maybe 284 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: they just don't like or that they want to go 285 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: away for some other reason. So it feels almost lame 286 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: to bring up the business question when we're talking about 287 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 1: the future of democracy basically. But Josh, what kind of 288 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: an impact with regulations have on revenues on profitability for 289 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,000 Speaker 1: these social networks? Yeah, I think it really depends on 290 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: how wide any future regulations go. If there's something relatively 291 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 1: targeted that says you have to tag political advertising on 292 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: the websites, I don't think that would really impact the business. 293 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: It probably wouldn't even really impact the business for political ads. 294 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: But once Congress starts doing things like trying to regulate 295 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 1: so called organic speech on the site, that could really 296 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,679 Speaker 1: impact the shape of a Facebook in a way that 297 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,640 Speaker 1: might also shape its underlying business, and I think that's 298 00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 1: really what the company's want to avoid. Okay, thank you, Josh. 299 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 1: Thanks red So because it's so hard to trace content 300 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,000 Speaker 1: as it moves across a huge platform like YouTube or Facebook, 301 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: it's also extremely difficult to regulate effectively. But that hasn't 302 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:19,160 Speaker 1: stopped some senators from proposing new rules, right Garrett to Bink, 303 00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: that's true. Hi Brad, Hi Garrett. Uh So, you're our 304 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 1: our New York based reporter and you're at the hearings 305 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: last week. Tell us about one proposed piece of legislation 306 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: that came up, the Honest Ads Act. You know, this 307 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: is a bill that's put forward by Mark Warner. He's 308 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: a name that's come up in this conversation already, as 309 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: well as Amy Klobach are another Democratic senator, and they 310 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: actually got John McCain, the Republican, to sign on with 311 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: them to support. And what the Honest Ads Act is, 312 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: what it tries to do is take the rules that 313 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: already applied to radio and TV political advertisements and require 314 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: online or digital ads to use those same rules. Okay, 315 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: so when we hear at the end of a radio ad, 316 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm Joe Mansion and I approved this message, 317 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,440 Speaker 1: that kind of same disclosure will be required for internet 318 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: ads exactly. So when you see a video or a 319 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: display ad on Facebook or Twitter or even on you know, 320 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,919 Speaker 1: a newspaper's website, it'll have to say similarly, you know, 321 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 1: paid for by etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. But what they'll also 322 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 1: have to include as if this bill as it is 323 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,239 Speaker 1: goes forward, is how many views it got who it 324 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,600 Speaker 1: was targeted to? And it's not just specific campaigns or 325 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: candidates that will need to be disclosed. It's any issue 326 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 1: of legislative national importance. So this could even be anything 327 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: related to such a hot button no controversial issues such 328 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: as gun control, that the platforms would have to go 329 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: and make sure that people paying for those advertisements. You know, 330 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: we know who they are. Now. Some senators suggested that 331 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: it was almost a patriotic duty for the tech companies 332 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: to support this bill. Here's Joe Manchion talking to the 333 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 1: representatives from the tech companies. Then you asked this, Are 334 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,760 Speaker 1: you or your CEO is concerned about the threatened damage 335 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 1: your companies can do the US with your far reaching 336 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 1: power and you have been identified as the major distributors 337 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: of fake news? Or is it basically just a business model? So, Garrett, 338 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 1: one of the things that this bill does is is 339 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 1: treat these internet platforms in the same way as news 340 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: organizations are treated. Now, these companies have never wanted to 341 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: be regulated in the same way that news organizations are. 342 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 1: How nervous does this make them? Well, you know they 343 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: are in a position of trying to push back against 344 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 1: everything right. I mean, the last thing that they want 345 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: is to sort of have to be the ones who 346 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,959 Speaker 1: can choose, you know, what is political speech, to censor that. 347 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: I mean, they're very careful about that. They want to 348 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: be neutral platforms. That's what they've always said they are, 349 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:46,960 Speaker 1: and it looks like, you know, we are coming to 350 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 1: a point where they can't hold that line, and that's 351 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,719 Speaker 1: why we're seeing some resistance here. What are the chances 352 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 1: that the Honest Ads Act passes? It's a good question. 353 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: I mean we are seeing, you know, at the hearings 354 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:02,640 Speaker 1: a lot of Democratic senators and and UH representatives as 355 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,159 Speaker 1: well speaking out seemingly in support of it. The hope 356 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: from the sponsors of the bill that after these these 357 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: hearings um that a lot of other people would jump 358 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: in and say, yeah, of course we need this, But 359 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: we haven't quite seen that. And this is the only 360 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 1: bill that's been proposed at this point. Right there's another 361 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: bill that relates to um sex trafficking online that could 362 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 1: affect the tech companies we all. We also know that 363 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: Senator Dian Feinstein said she's working on something that hasn't 364 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: necessarily come out yet. She just said during the hearings 365 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,879 Speaker 1: that her staff are working on a bill that would 366 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: require tech companies to tell a law enforcement when they 367 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 1: see illegal activity on their platforms, but we don't know 368 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: exactly what that's going to look like. So, Garrett, were 369 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:46,879 Speaker 1: ten years into the social networking wave or twenty years 370 00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 1: into the into the Internet revolution, and these kinds of regulations, 371 00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 1: you know, they don't exist. Now, how difficult will it 372 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: be for these senators to deliver on their promises of 373 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,640 Speaker 1: the past week. I mean, the main goal that they're 374 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 1: trying to do here is to make sure that foreign 375 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:07,440 Speaker 1: actors aren't meddling in US elections. Right, and even if 376 00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,439 Speaker 1: you require Facebook or you know whoever is buying this 377 00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: advertisement to say it was paid for by X, if 378 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: you're really trying to be sneaky, there's always ways around it. Right. 379 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: This is the Internet, this is technology. They can use VPNs, 380 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 1: they can use currencies that are not you know, if 381 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 1: this is if these are Russian actors, they can use 382 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: currencies that are not from Russia. There's all these ways 383 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: that you can get around it. And that's what the 384 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: technology companies are saying. They said, you know, the representative 385 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:32,880 Speaker 1: from Pritter even use the phrase whack a mole when 386 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: it came to trying to stop, you know, foreign actors 387 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: from using nefarious ways to get onto social networks. Yeah. 388 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: I do hate to end this conversation on a pessimistic note, 389 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:45,639 Speaker 1: but but it has been true throughout the history of 390 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: the Internet. Bad actors do find a way around bottlenecks 391 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:54,120 Speaker 1: instilled by regulation. Ye it looks like that. All right, Well, 392 00:23:54,160 --> 00:24:02,679 Speaker 1: thank you, Garrett Vinc, Thank you, and that's it for 393 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: this week's episode of Decrypted. Thanks for listening. Do you 394 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: have a story about fake news that has affected you 395 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 1: to send us an email at Decrypted at Bloomberg dot net, 396 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 1: or you can reach us on Twitter. I'm Garrett Vink 397 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 1: and I'm at Garrett D. That's g E R R 398 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: I T D and I'm at at brad Stone. If 399 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 1: you haven't already, please subscribe to our show wherever you 400 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. And while you're there, I hope you 401 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 1: take a minute to leave us a rating or a 402 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: review that does so much to get us in front 403 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: of more listeners. This episode was produced by Pio Gukari, 404 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,640 Speaker 1: Liz Smith, and Magnus Hendrickson. We'll see you next week.