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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Seth Nicholas Johnson.

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Speaker 1: Seth is, of course the producer of Stuff to All

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Speaker 1: Your Mind, but he also co hosts the music podcast

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Speaker 1: Rusty Needles Record Club. Today's episode is going to be

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Speaker 1: something of a crossover episode because we're gonna be talking

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Speaker 1: about Stuff to Blow your Mind type stuff, but this

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Speaker 1: one is going to veer directly into vinyl record territory

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Speaker 1: for I think a large, a large portion of the episode,

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Speaker 1: and especially when you get into that area, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: really gonna have to defer to you, seth uh, being

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Speaker 1: the master of records that you are, and with myself

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Speaker 1: being someone who was told from an early age not

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Speaker 1: to touch records and being an obedient child, I obeyed

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Speaker 1: everyone on that and I have virtually not touched any

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Speaker 1: vinyl my entire life, because that's what grown ups are

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Speaker 1: supposed to do. You know, it's not actually a bad

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Speaker 1: rule to make for children, because you know they are

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Speaker 1: very delicate and um not not only um do I

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Speaker 1: manufacture vinyl on my own, which is has taught me

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Speaker 1: a lot about it. But also, um, I run a

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Speaker 1: record label, so I've had it pressed at at vinyl factories,

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Speaker 1: and and I'm a big vinyl collector on my own,

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Speaker 1: and even me, I'm I'm very familiar with what you

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Speaker 1: should and shouldn't touch. Basically only touched the rim and

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Speaker 1: the label never touched the grooves. Even I just because

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Speaker 1: I'm a human being, I'll be clumsy and drop something

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Speaker 1: You'll like scratch against an edge and like, well, that's

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Speaker 1: ruined forever, you know, So I can't imagine entrusting that

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Speaker 1: to a child, you know. Uh, That's why children's records

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Speaker 1: are always just scratched into oblivion. So so you know,

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Speaker 1: I I understand, and I also understand why even adults

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Speaker 1: have are hesitance to to to jump into that world.

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Speaker 1: But I also see the attraction of it obviously. I mean,

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Speaker 1: in a weird house, cinema episodes are always pointing out

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Speaker 1: which movies score has been re released in some sort

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Speaker 1: of strange ultra rare vinyl release, and and it's often

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Speaker 1: beautiful for just from a packaging standpoint, but also when

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Speaker 1: you get down to the details of the record pressing,

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Speaker 1: Like I see the appeal of it. So it's not

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Speaker 1: for for lack of of occasionally thinking, hey I could,

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Speaker 1: I could start getting into vinyl. But but yeah, just

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Speaker 1: from from an early age I was I was told

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Speaker 1: shouldn't touch that, and I agree. I mean, it's it's

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Speaker 1: wonderful for forcing yourself to be actually involved in what

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Speaker 1: you're consuming musically. That's my favorite part about vinyl. Sure,

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Speaker 1: the sound quality is better, There's there's no getting around that.

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Speaker 1: It is better. But uh, in addition to that, I

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Speaker 1: love that I need to put the record on the

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Speaker 1: little turntable, I need to turn on my stereo, gotta

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Speaker 1: put the needle in the groove, I need to wait

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Speaker 1: fifteen to thirty minutes, flip it over, put put it

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Speaker 1: back on the other side. You know, like like I

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Speaker 1: have an active interest in what I'm listening to, and

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Speaker 1: therefore it makes me appreciate it more. It's just like

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Speaker 1: eating sunflower seeds, you know. Cracking open the shells is

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Speaker 1: half the fun, you know. Okay, so you give that

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Speaker 1: tactile experience with it. It's not just a passive series

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Speaker 1: of zeros and ones being pre chosen by an algorithm.

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Speaker 1: I chose this record, I'm putting it on. I'm making

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Speaker 1: these noises happen in my own small contribution way. So

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Speaker 1: in this episode, we're going to be talking in general

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Speaker 1: about things hidden in music. Uh, you might think of

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Speaker 1: them as easter eggs, um or any other number of

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Speaker 1: terms you might use hidden messages if you'd rather. And

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Speaker 1: we'll also be talking about accusations and panics associated with

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Speaker 1: some of these techniques, the psychology involved, and specific examples

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Speaker 1: from music history. And as we explain these various record

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Speaker 1: based techniques, I will give some real world examples of

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Speaker 1: them that you can find in your local record store

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Speaker 1: and that hey, I think you should listen to, because

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Speaker 1: I think every example I give is something that I'm like, Yes,

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Speaker 1: I recommend this, go check out out excellent. Yeah. And

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Speaker 1: some of these examples are gonna come up are things

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Speaker 1: that were mentioned in papers I'll be citing, but they're

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Speaker 1: obviously ones in many cases you are very familiar with,

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Speaker 1: and you can perhaps give a little more background on. Right,

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Speaker 1: all right, So the first stop is going to take

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Speaker 1: us back before musical recording was possible, or at least

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Speaker 1: to a time when the main way to record music

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Speaker 1: was at least via media, was to put it on

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Speaker 1: paper was to write down the music, and even then

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Speaker 1: a certain amount of of musical encoding is possible. So

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Speaker 1: we have to be reminded that music is information. So

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Speaker 1: it shouldn't come as a surprise that hidden information can

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Speaker 1: be present in music in ways that predate analog or

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Speaker 1: digital media. Not even getting into what's possible with language itself,

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Speaker 1: because obviously, uh, you know, any given songs, lyrics in

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Speaker 1: any given language, there's gonna be a enough complexity there

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Speaker 1: that you can hide things that you can you can

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Speaker 1: sort of get across points, uh, subliminate lee, you can

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Speaker 1: use metaphors. I mean, all the weapons of language are

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Speaker 1: at your disposal if you at all know how to

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Speaker 1: use them when you're crafting lyrics and uh. But but

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Speaker 1: beyond that, we can certainly look at examples of musical cryptograms,

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Speaker 1: because basically musical symbols and musical notes can and have

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Speaker 1: been used in substitution ciphers. And we've talked about substitution

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Speaker 1: ciphers on past episodes of Stuff to blow your mind.

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Speaker 1: When musical theorists in the West began to assign letter

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Speaker 1: names to notes, steering I believe the ninth century, see

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Speaker 1: it also became possible to turn things around. Uh though

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Speaker 1: it wasn't until I believe the Romantic period and beyond

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Speaker 1: that that this was really explored. So you might be wondering, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what are you talking about here with the obviously we

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Speaker 1: have notes, we haven't play an A play a B natural, etcetera.

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Speaker 1: And this is where we see a great example of this,

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Speaker 1: and this is the one that I mentioned a number

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Speaker 1: of you're familiar with, um the famed Baroque composer Johan

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Speaker 1: Sebastian Bach, who through seventeen fifty would employ what we

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Speaker 1: call the Bach motif. So that's a B flat and

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Speaker 1: a A c and then a B natural. Now you

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Speaker 1: might say, well, well that's a B A C B

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Speaker 1: that what that's that's meaningless? Well, in German a B

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Speaker 1: flat is B and a B natural is H, thus

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Speaker 1: spelling out Bach clever. Maybe maybe once it's been explained,

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Speaker 1: maybe a little too obvious, but but yeah, there it's

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Speaker 1: an example where he decided to using the system in

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Speaker 1: place to to to label these different sounds, to then

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Speaker 1: turn it around and write is no own name in

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Speaker 1: the music itself. And there are numerous other examples of

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Speaker 1: this from other composers you know, I've actually looked this

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Speaker 1: up before because it is it's a fun idea to

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Speaker 1: communicate with the sounds of notes. In fact, I remember

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Speaker 1: there was a gosh, I believe it was a scene

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Speaker 1: in the Paul Thomas Anderson's film Magnolia where they're on

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Speaker 1: like a game show and these are like what these

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Speaker 1: are things you'll bring to a picnic and they'll just

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Speaker 1: play notes and they'll like spell out the words, so

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Speaker 1: like e G G. I'll bring an egg that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing, you know, like it's it's it's something you

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Speaker 1: can do and it's fun, it's puzzle e it's it's

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Speaker 1: good times. So I've looked this up in the past.

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Speaker 1: There are approximately, especially if you include the h as

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Speaker 1: as a part of it, around two hundred words that

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Speaker 1: you can spell using just musical notes, so you know,

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Speaker 1: things like cabbage head. You know, like these things, these

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Speaker 1: things are possible, they're they're a part of that language.

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Speaker 1: So I think it would be difficult, but I bet

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Speaker 1: you could form a message, you could form sentences, and

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Speaker 1: you know, we'll talk more about more examples right now. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, because you're essentially talking about music obsessed individuals,

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Speaker 1: total music nerds in different ages just eventually getting in

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Speaker 1: there and just experimenting with what they could do. Be

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Speaker 1: it something that was about creating new sound, elevating the art, etcetera,

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Speaker 1: or just having a laugh, and that's those those two

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Speaker 1: ideas seemed to run throughout the history of of this

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Speaker 1: kind of hidden messages in music activity. They are also

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Speaker 1: older examples of musical cryptograms, including the work of Renaissance

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Speaker 1: musician Joaquin d. Prey lived fourteen fifty five through fifteen

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Speaker 1: twenty one. He was a French Flemish composer and he

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Speaker 1: composed a particular work this is Missa Hercules du Ferrari.

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Speaker 1: It was for the Duke of Ferrara, and the music

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Speaker 1: is derived from the musical letters in the duke's name.

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Speaker 1: A musical cryptogram that was later known is the saghetto cavato.

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Speaker 1: Another example, American occultist Paul Foster Case would create a

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Speaker 1: cryptogram in the twentieth century that made use of esoteric

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Speaker 1: symbols and concepts, and if I understand what I was

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Speaker 1: reading on it correctly, it used occult sim oles Hebrew

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Speaker 1: and Latin to translate a word into notes. Though the

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Speaker 1: usage here would be more ceremonial than anything. Um, but

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Speaker 1: but one of one of one of several examples will

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Speaker 1: be touching on that it that either is within the

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Speaker 1: realm of the occult or we'll touch on examples later

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Speaker 1: that are more in the area of sort of like

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Speaker 1: faux occultism or accusations of occultism, etcetera. So those are

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Speaker 1: all excellent examples. But let's give our audience one more

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Speaker 1: that's a bit more modern. Something they can they can

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Speaker 1: go find a record of right now, the nineteen seventy

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Speaker 1: seven album Let There Be Rock by A C d C.

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Speaker 1: They close with a song called a Whole Lot of Rosy,

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Speaker 1: where the primary guitar riff goes A C A D

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Speaker 1: A C A or Akadaca, which is A C d

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Speaker 1: c's nickname in their home country of Australia. Ah, that's impressive.

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Speaker 1: I had no idea about that, huh so Johan Sebastian Bach. Also,

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Speaker 1: the members of A C d C all all the

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Speaker 1: same brain when it comes to coding the songs. Here, yes,

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Speaker 1: shoulder to shoulder. So there's just there's just a few

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Speaker 1: brief examples to demonstrate what is It was possible even

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Speaker 1: before analog and digital media becomes involved in the scenario.

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Speaker 1: But at this point let's move on to some more

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Speaker 1: analog examples. So the first thing we're gonna look at

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Speaker 1: with actual recorded audio is something that I'm sure many,

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Speaker 1: if not most, of you are familiar with at this point,

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Speaker 1: either by virtue of various panics over popular music, especially

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Speaker 1: satanic panic, and it's um reverberations through media from everything

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Speaker 1: you know, from horror movies to to supernatural television shows

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Speaker 1: and so forth. But also it impacts actual record and

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Speaker 1: actual recording practice, an actual production practice, a technique known

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Speaker 1: as back masking. So before we get into any actual

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Speaker 1: examples of back masking or allegations of back masking, and

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Speaker 1: this is where it gets, it gets very weird because

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Speaker 1: it seems like on the surface you would think either

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Speaker 1: you're doing it or you're not doing it. And if

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Speaker 1: you're doing it, truly it's it's provable, but I guess

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Speaker 1: a little more ambiguous than that. So in simple terms,

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Speaker 1: this is reversing audio, especially recordings of human speech, playing

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Speaker 1: it backwards in a recording. In many cases you know

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Speaker 1: you know it when you hear it. Basic backwards speech,

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Speaker 1: which is also sometimes utilized in media for like alien

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Speaker 1: words or arcane spells and so forth. A lot of

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Speaker 1: times it's used for creepy effects, and I think we

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Speaker 1: all we you know what, when you hear it, you

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Speaker 1: can hear this this sound effect, and it's it's people

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Speaker 1: speaking backwards. Um, that's what it is. It's almost unfortunate

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Speaker 1: that we're also familiar with it at this point because

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Speaker 1: back in the old days, before you know, before we

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Speaker 1: all walked around with computers in our pockets and we

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Speaker 1: all have the ability to record ourselves whenever we wanted,

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Speaker 1: it must have truly sounded foreign. You know, it's it's

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Speaker 1: here audio played backwards, and it's been like, wow, what

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Speaker 1: is that. I've ever heard any creature make that noise before?

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Speaker 1: And now when we hear it, we just go, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's that's reverse audio. We know what it sounds like,

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Speaker 1: you know, we know, we know the hallmarks of it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I guess with with actual reverse audio, like one

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Speaker 1: of two things happens. It just sounds weird and cool.

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Speaker 1: That sounds like dark magic and so forth, And I

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Speaker 1: think that's especially nowadays. That's how most of us hear it.

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Speaker 1: But also the brain can't help but lean into it,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes try and hear things in it. Uh, And

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Speaker 1: that gets into a whole other area. Now, the other

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Speaker 1: side of the equation we mentioned allegations um of of

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Speaker 1: of back masking, erroneous back masking, arguments that, especially um

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Speaker 1: dangerous seeming rock bands of previous decades, the idea that

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Speaker 1: they were actually back back masking in a way so

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Speaker 1: that what sounds like just normal lyrics can be reversed

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Speaker 1: and have a totally different meaning, usually one that is

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Speaker 1: satanic or sometimes not. There's a great episode of The

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Speaker 1: Simpsons where a joke is made that Paul McCartney uh

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Speaker 1: snuck in a recipe for lentil soup into Maybe I'm Amazed.

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Speaker 1: We have to play it backwards to hear it. And

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Speaker 1: here's actually the really fun part. Over the closing credits

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Speaker 1: of that episode of The Simpsons, they do play maybe

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Speaker 1: I'm amazed. This is actually a famous episode. This is

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Speaker 1: the one where at least becomes a vegetarians this episode.

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Speaker 1: That's a great episode. Yeah, and um so uh in

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Speaker 1: that episode they do play maybe I'm Amazed over the

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Speaker 1: closing credits. And if you actually record the closing credits

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Speaker 1: audio and reverse it, they really did insert a recipe

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Speaker 1: for lentil soup into that song. It's wonderful. Wow. I

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Speaker 1: had no idea, not in the real song, only in

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Speaker 1: the Simpsons episode. Wow. Yeah. So it shouldn't surprise anyone

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Speaker 1: that this practice goes back pretty much is as long

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Speaker 1: as we've had the ability to record and play back speech.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I was reading, you know, there's a book

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Speaker 1: titled Language, Myths, Mysteries, and Magic from Any fourteen, and

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Speaker 1: there's an article in there on backmasking by Karen stoles Now,

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Speaker 1: and the author points out that this actually goes all

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Speaker 1: the way back to Thomas Edison around eighteen seventy seven,

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Speaker 1: as the noted American inventor and businessman would would experiment

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Speaker 1: with playing music backwards I think, notably a whistled version

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Speaker 1: of Yankee Doodle Dandy um, and this would have been

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Speaker 1: used via um tinfoil phonograph recordings. He observed that music

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Speaker 1: quote is still melodious in many cases, and some of

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Speaker 1: the strains are sweet and novel, but altogether different from

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Speaker 1: the song reproduced in the right way. And uh, I

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Speaker 1: think we're I think this is a realization that certainly

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Speaker 1: someone like Thomas Edison was in a position to uh,

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Speaker 1: acknowledge and admire back then, and then there's kind of

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Speaker 1: been a wave of it throughout audio history and certainly nowadays.

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Speaker 1: I've never really looked at this before, but if you

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Speaker 1: go on like YouTube, you'll find so many examples of

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Speaker 1: people taking music and reversing like whole albums just to

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Speaker 1: play it backwards and see what happens. Uh. Sometimes they

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Speaker 1: have a specific thing they're going for, maybe there after

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Speaker 1: something in the lyrics, or it's one of the cases

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Speaker 1: that will be touching on later on in this episode.

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Speaker 1: But other times, especially with I saw the number of

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Speaker 1: like ambient albums, people just want to experience the album

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Speaker 1: they love, both both the forwards and backwards. I've got

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Speaker 1: another little recommendation to throw in here. Okay, So there

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Speaker 1: is a wonderful musician and his name, his real name

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Speaker 1: is Dave Portner, but he goes by A V taar

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Speaker 1: A V tear is most famously from the band Animal Collective,

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Speaker 1: but he has a wonderful solo career as well. Uh.

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Speaker 1: There was a time when he was married to one

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Speaker 1: of the members of the band Moom and her name

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Speaker 1: was Krea Breckon. Okay, so they released while they were

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Speaker 1: married a collaborative album together called Pull Hair Rubbi. All right, now, Um,

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Speaker 1: when this album first leaked back in the days when

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Speaker 1: like leaking was a big issue. Uh, folks would listen

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Speaker 1: to and they were like, oh, this is a bad leak.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like the entire album is played backwards. Someone

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Speaker 1: let me know when you get a real version of

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Speaker 1: the leak. Well, A V. Tare himself came onto these

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Speaker 1: boards and was like, no, no, that's that's the real version.

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Speaker 1: When he and his wife had finished recording their album,

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Speaker 1: they decided, you know, the entire album sounds better if

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Speaker 1: you play it backwards. So what became a pretty straightforward

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Speaker 1: folk album became a pretty foreign sounding backwards album. And

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Speaker 1: it's it's wonderful. It's called Pull Hair Rubb. I. I

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Speaker 1: highly recommend it, and um, it sounds almost instrumental. It

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Speaker 1: sounds very foreign, and it sounds very strange because once

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Speaker 1: they did reverse it initially and they decided, yes, this

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Speaker 1: whole album just will be backwards versions of every single song.

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Speaker 1: Then they did start leaning into that. Then they made

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Speaker 1: special decisions that really highlighted those choices, and it worked

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Speaker 1: out really well. Genuinely, it's a wonderful album. I think

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Speaker 1: people should listen to it on a very I guess

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Speaker 1: kind of simple level. It reminds me a lot of

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Speaker 1: what's going on with AI and creativity nowadays, be it

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Speaker 1: with text or visuals, where you have a level of

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Speaker 1: human uh creativity that's going into the machine, it's getting

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Speaker 1: spat out in some form, and then there's going to

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Speaker 1: be a certain amount of tweaking, either after tweaking to

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Speaker 1: the resulting material, or then going back and saying, Okay,

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Speaker 1: now I see what the technology does to what I

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Speaker 1: started with. What can I do to optimally, um change

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Speaker 1: the results and make it even more in line with

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Speaker 1: what I'm trying to create. I think this has been

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Speaker 1: something UM that's an element of creativity that people have

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Speaker 1: used forever, which is just taking some of the decisions

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Speaker 1: out of the hands of the creator to help influence

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Speaker 1: something else, whether it be like those um you know

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Speaker 1: those like cut up practices where you're trying to write lyrics,

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Speaker 1: so you write little words, put them in a hat

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Speaker 1: and pull them out one by one, or um you

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Speaker 1: know those famous Brian Eno cards where there's like difference

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Speaker 1: like prompts written on each card that you pull out,

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Speaker 1: and that's supposed to help you with your production process.

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Speaker 1: Like you know, there's there's lots of examples of this,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right. I think

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Speaker 1: AI and intentional reversing just takes a few of those

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Speaker 1: decisions out of the hands of the artist. Now Stalls

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Speaker 1: Now also shares an another example from Edison. Edison and

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Speaker 1: his colleagues were apparently also fond of taking recordings of

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Speaker 1: someone saying mad dog and playing it backwards so that

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Speaker 1: it sounded like God damn. And this was this was

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Speaker 1: not any kind of early satanic record recording. This was

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Speaker 1: apparently just pure novelty. They just observed that this was

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Speaker 1: the case and found it amusing. But it touches on

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Speaker 1: something that will will keep coming back to the idea

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Speaker 1: that sometimes when you take spoken language and you reverse

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Speaker 1: it, it it can sound like other words in that language,

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Speaker 1: um and yeah. And then there's a lot of psychological

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Speaker 1: layering to put on top of that, but we'll get

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Speaker 1: to that than now. Eventually, real to real tapes came along.

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Speaker 1: This would have been the nineteen thirties, and it became

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Speaker 1: increasingly easy for audio lovers to experiment with the medium. So,

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Speaker 1: for instance, French composer Pierre Schaefer lived experimented with tape looping, sampling,

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Speaker 1: and back masking, and the use of backmasking would then

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Speaker 1: increase among avant garde musicians during the nineteen fifties, according

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Speaker 1: to stas Now, and and certainly I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of you out there can can think of various um

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Speaker 1: recording artists who use some of these tools, tape loops especially.

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Speaker 1: There are a lot of ambient um recording artists that

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Speaker 1: I can think of that that make use of this.

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Speaker 1: But you know, it comes down to just manipulating the

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Speaker 1: recorded data at heart. Now, in the history of backmasking,

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Speaker 1: it's impossible to talk about all this without touching on

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Speaker 1: the Beatles. And it's it's not just because of the

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Speaker 1: Beatles are are popular and uh and are an easy

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Speaker 1: uh band of source for all this like that they were.

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Speaker 1: They really were the ones that are credited with sort

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Speaker 1: of bringing back masking into the main stream, both for

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Speaker 1: for good and kind of also for uh for bad,

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Speaker 1: for the you know, leaning into the whole panic area

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Speaker 1: so um. To be clear, though, all major and serious accounts,

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Speaker 1: which which stalls Now discusses in their paper, seemed to

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Speaker 1: to to to drive on the Beatles engaged in backmasking

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Speaker 1: purely for novelty's sake. Um this entails large. I think

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Speaker 1: the main examples here three tracks off of the legendary

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Speaker 1: nine six album Revolver. That would be I'm Only Sleeping

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Speaker 1: Tomorrow Never Knows, but then also the single Rain, which

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Speaker 1: wasn't on that album but came out of the same recordings.

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Speaker 1: So specifically on these I'm Only Sleeping you have a

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Speaker 1: back masked lead guitar part by George Harrison. So George

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Speaker 1: Harrison played it one way. When they were tinkering around

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Speaker 1: if You're going out, you know, how they were putting

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Speaker 1: all this together, they said, hey, we like it better

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Speaker 1: in reverse. Let's use it that way. It helps create

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Speaker 1: this kind of dream like, uh, you know, psychedelic sound. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure just novelty variety, and probably just purely aesthetics.

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Speaker 1: It's just what dictated these decisions for them. I mean,

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Speaker 1: and sure maybe maybe part of it was like, hey,

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Speaker 1: it'll be funny if people try to reverse these things

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Speaker 1: because they sound backwards, but I bet that wasn't really

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Speaker 1: the primary thoughts. I'm sure aesthetics were the first and

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Speaker 1: foremost decision maker there yeah, I've seen it mentioned that

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Speaker 1: the John Lennon and producer George Martin both kind of

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Speaker 1: took credit for the discovery, but both in in kind

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Speaker 1: of casual ways, like I think George Martin was more

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Speaker 1: along that it was more along the lines of like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we were experimenting and this sounded good, and John Lennon

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Speaker 1: was more more likely to say, well, I was really

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Speaker 1: high at the time and I kind of discovered it

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00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,400
Speaker 1: either way, though, Yeah, Tomorrow Never Knows also has backwards

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Speaker 1: guitar on it, and then Rain stands out a little

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Speaker 1: bit because it features backward vocals. So these are popular

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Speaker 1: and I guess somewhat obvious examples of back masking in

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Speaker 1: the biggest band in the world. And so of course

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Speaker 1: this leads to greater scrutiny, great greater awareness of the technique. Um.

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Speaker 1: And this is going to mean that that later on

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Speaker 1: people were looking at subsequent Beatles albums and saying, well,

396
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Speaker 1: I wonder, what's what's farwards, what back what's backwards? Are

397
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Speaker 1: they using this again? Um? And this ends up this

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Speaker 1: ends up leading to a lot of speculation from some

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Speaker 1: of the more I guess, you know, conspiracy minded fans

400
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Speaker 1: about what maybe hidden in subsequent albums those stalls Now

401
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,560
Speaker 1: writes in their paper quote, there were no hidden messages

402
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Speaker 1: until the fans and fanatics went looking for them. And

403
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,880
Speaker 1: so from here we begin to veer into this area

404
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Speaker 1: of of accusations of back masking and getting into urban

405
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Speaker 1: legends about songs like Revolution nine off of White album.

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Speaker 1: If this is something I wasn't super familiar with, but

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Speaker 1: there's a voice saying number nine, number nine, number nine,

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Speaker 1: and the legend goes that if you if you reverse that,

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Speaker 1: you hear turn me on dead Man, and um, you can.

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Speaker 1: You can find examples of this on I think just

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Speaker 1: the Wikipedia page for the Wide album or for Revolution

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Speaker 1: number nine, and you can hear it. I was listening

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Speaker 1: to it just the other day, and I have to

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Speaker 1: say I did not find it particularly convincing. I feel

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Speaker 1: like you really have to want to hear turn Me

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Speaker 1: on Dead Man. And then you get into that area

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Speaker 1: where it's like, if this is the hidden message, why

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Speaker 1: is the hidden message? Like so like clunky? Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: you I think you can say that about um, something

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00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,159
Speaker 1: that I think you're coming to, which is all of

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Speaker 1: the Paul Is Dead clues that are out there. Uh,

422
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Speaker 1: this was taken as one of those as a Oh,

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00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,920
Speaker 1: this is just an indicator if folks don't know. There's

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Speaker 1: a a long held rumor slash conspiracy theory that is

425
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,840
Speaker 1: clearly very untrue, but people just like to talk about

426
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: it that Paul died in a car crash early on

427
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,879
Speaker 1: in the Beatles career and then he was replaced by

428
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,119
Speaker 1: a Paul look alike at one point. Um, it's obviously

429
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 1: very untrue, but there are many examples that conspiracy theorists

430
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: like to talk about, like, um, oh gosh, here here's one.

431
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,719
Speaker 1: For example, if you look at the cover of Abbey

432
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:31,679
Speaker 1: Road picture in your mind, you have the four Beatles

433
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,000
Speaker 1: walking across the road. Uh, They're all dressed in kind

434
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 1: of interesting clothing, very distinct from one another. Um here,

435
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 1: I'm going off top my head, but I think I

436
00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: can do this all the way. At the back, you

437
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 1: have George Harrison, who is dressed kind of like a

438
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 1: working man, kind of like working man's clothes, denim, nothing fancy.

439
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,000
Speaker 1: In front of that, you have Ringo who's wearing like

440
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 1: kind of a fancier suit and tie. Okay. In front

441
00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,200
Speaker 1: of that you have Paul, also dressed, you know, pretty

442
00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 1: casually and I think he's not wearing shoes, all right,

443
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 1: And then in front of him you have John Lennon

444
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 1: who is dressed all in white with long flowing hair, etcetera, etcetera.

445
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 1: So the message you were supposed to receive from that

446
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: is that John Lennon was God and he was taking

447
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,919
Speaker 1: home the dead body of Paul McCartney. He wasn't wearing

448
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 1: shoes because something to do with like being buried without

449
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 1: your shoes on. It was. It was something that's one referenced.

450
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 1: Ringo represented like the priest who was like burying and

451
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 1: giving the eulogy, and George Harrison was representing the grave digger,

452
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 1: the man actually burying Paul, and it's like, yeah, I

453
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 1: guess you know, like that's that's quite a stretch. There's

454
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 1: a lot of other things too, Like if you hold

455
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: a mirror up to the bass drum on the cover

456
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:47,919
Speaker 1: of Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, it allegedly like

457
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: gives you the date that Paul died. And like if

458
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:53,320
Speaker 1: you look at like the pictures on the cover of

459
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: Let It Be, I think Paul's is the only one

460
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: with like a red background and everyone else's his white

461
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: or something like that, like there's all these little things

462
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: and they're all meaningless. But this, this was another one

463
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,959
Speaker 1: that turned me on dead Man. It's I don't know,

464
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 1: I don't know why someone could put some so much

465
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 1: stock in this, but I suppose it's fun, you know,

466
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 1: just to look for clues and and and hints and stuff. Yeah,

467
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 1: I mean, we have to remember this is in the

468
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 1: wake of of Beatlemania, and we could think of it

469
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: as like a heretical strain of Beatlemania that began to

470
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 1: attach itself to these various cryptic details in either the

471
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: uh you know that the advanced production design of the music,

472
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: or the advanced record design, you know, illustration work and

473
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,919
Speaker 1: graphic design on the albums. There's plenty to sort of

474
00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: latch onto in both of these, and um, some of

475
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 1: one of those things. I guess you look at a

476
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: lot of conspiracy thinking some of this may have began

477
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: for fun, it's just as an amusement, but then it

478
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:53,880
Speaker 1: can kind of take on an energy of its own,

479
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: and you begin to wonder to what extent or people

480
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: truly buying into this idea that Paul is dead and

481
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 1: has been replaced by a look alike and Obviously, the

482
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: most rational thing you would do if you were perpetrating

483
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 1: this kind of conspiracy was leave a lot of clues

484
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: for it in your subsequent album output. Absolutely so. Anyway,

485
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 1: Paul McCartney was not dead then and as of this

486
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 1: recording still alive. Actually now, it is worth noting that

487
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: A Day in the Life off of Sergeant Pepper's Only

488
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 1: Hearts Club Band, which will come back to again, that

489
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: it does contain some sounds that are just for dogs though.

490
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: There there's also the allegation that a reverse section at

491
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 1: the end of the song can be reversed into something crude.

492
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: But according to to to Martin, this is all just

493
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: gibberish reverse. They just recorded a lot of gibberish and

494
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:43,400
Speaker 1: then reversed it. I mean, I mean, you could hear

495
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:48,080
Speaker 1: nearly anything in anything. I remember personally. I had a

496
00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,239
Speaker 1: copy of um Crosby Stills in Nash Deja Vu, and

497
00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: when I was younger, I played the title track backwards

498
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 1: because why not, you know, I had a record player,

499
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: why not play it backwards? And there was a section

500
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,439
Speaker 1: where I swore, my little teenage brain, I swore that

501
00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 1: they said you cannot hide hide amongst them. Okay, So

502
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 1: I was hanging out a friend of mine's house and

503
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 1: I heard her her I think it was her stepfather,

504
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,080
Speaker 1: was in the other room playing this record out loud,

505
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my gosh, I know a

506
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: hidden message in this record that if you if you

507
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 1: play it backwards, that it says you cannot hide, hide

508
00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,639
Speaker 1: amongst them. And she's like, oh, go tell him, go

509
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: tell them, Like okay, this is gonna be great. So

510
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: I go to this adults little teenage boy, like, you know,

511
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,919
Speaker 1: if you play this song backwards, you can hear, you

512
00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 1: can hear hidden messages, you can hear you cannot hide,

513
00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 1: hide amongst them. And he goes. He stares me for

514
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 1: a while cox's head. He's like, you smoke a lot

515
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 1: of pot, do you No, I'm just a music lover.

516
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 1: I love plagued my records backwards, And yeah, didn't. Didn't.

517
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 1: I didn't get the reaction I was hoping for, which

518
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: was all in praise and a standing ovation. But oh well,

519
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,880
Speaker 1: this is a great time for me to ask this though,

520
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: because I guess this is some thing that should be

521
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: obvious to to people who use record players. But I

522
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 1: didn't even think about this. But every every record player

523
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 1: gives you the ability to play both forward and backwards.

524
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 1: Is that correct? Almost? Almost? Um, some of them do

525
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: it deliberately, Like there are record players that I own

526
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:19,479
Speaker 1: that literally have a switch that you can go from

527
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: forwards to backwards. And that's if you have a quote

528
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: unquote like fancy record player, that button will be there.

529
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: And that's that's a very useful thing to have, especially

530
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 1: we're trying to like cue up an exact moment in

531
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: a song, that kind of thing. So yeah, so that

532
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: that that is a feature that many record players have

533
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 1: a literal reverse button, but on the less expensive ones.

534
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: And this is the way I used to do when

535
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: I was younger. You would turn off the belt that

536
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: that that that drives the actual turning of the record,

537
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: and you would but you would leave the speaker on

538
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,640
Speaker 1: and you would manually move your hand backwards pushing the

539
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: record in reverse, which makes it sound even creepier because

540
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: it's not even like, you know, at like a regular pace.

541
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 1: It's got like this like human lurch too. It's you know. So,

542
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: but but I also know that there are record players

543
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: that just will not go and reverse no matter if

544
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: you push them, you'll just end up breaking them. So yeah,

545
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: there's there's different kinds, but some actually just have a

546
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: button that plays it in reverse. Interesting, Well, this is

547
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: this is all telling because it does sound, from what

548
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: you're saying, like just the basic vinyl record scenario would

549
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: sort of put the tools in the average music fans

550
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 1: hands to sort of go in and investigate for themselves,

551
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: um and uh and and find things potentially or confirm

552
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 1: things that they heard they might find. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

553
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: So again, by most accounts, backmasking by the Beatles was

554
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: generally more about novelty and dumb jokes, but that doesn't

555
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:46,920
Speaker 1: mean that occult backmasking didn't take place. According to Jonathan Winel,

556
00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: Darryl Griffith's, and Stewart Cunningham in Easter Eggs, Hidden Tracks

557
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:57,160
Speaker 1: and Messages and Musical Mediums, occultist Alistair Crowley encourage practitioners

558
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: to engage backwards thinking by listening who recordings backwards. And

559
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: while I think this sounds kind of silly, this notion

560
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: and the ripples of this notion certainly influenced the eventual

561
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: place of backtracking in Satanic panic Um Satanic panic. Of course,

562
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 1: this is something that we've touched on the show before.

563
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 1: This was a moral panic, mostly in the United States

564
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: and then also in um in the UK and parts

565
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 1: of Europe during the eighties and nineties, though it's reverberations

566
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: in subsequent years and subsequent decades can be found in

567
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: different parts of the world and also in different sort

568
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 1: of communities and certainly faith communities as well. Basically just

569
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: whips everyone into a frenzy over the idea that something

570
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 1: that had never really existed in the world, that is,

571
00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: the organized worship of Satan, was in engaging in covert

572
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 1: means of corrupting the youth of the world, as well

573
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: as ritually torturing and murdering children. So, um, yeah, there's

574
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: much more one can say about Satanic pan uh in

575
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: its awfulness, but and and and also the like the

576
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: real cost of it to to actual human beings. There's

577
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: also a lot to be said into how it ends

578
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: up impacting media, how it impacts music and horror and

579
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 1: so forth. Um, But back masking comes into play as

580
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 1: a part of all of this as well, because you

581
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: had allegations that scary metal bands and even bands that

582
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: we might not think of today as being that scary,

583
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: we're using backmasking to corrupt listeners with incantations of devil, magic, drugs,

584
00:32:32,360 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 1: and more. Which this era is so baffling to me

585
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: because I suppose, if you're the kind of person that

586
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: wants to believe in this organized worship of Satan that's

587
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: happening right under your nose, any of your neighbors could

588
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: be a Satan worshiper. I suppose you're also the same

589
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: same kind of person that's going to believe that a

590
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: backwards incantation can do something have some effects in the

591
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 1: real world. So I don't know, Like, like, I just

592
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: hope for the practice cold minds of most people to go, wait,

593
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: there's a backwards spell on this, Oh well, good things

594
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: spells don't work, so who cares? You know? Yeah, it

595
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 1: ultimately raises a bunch of ridiculous questions when you when

596
00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: you start analyzing it with a logical mind. But and

597
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 1: then some of them too. It just it just made

598
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: absolutely no sense. It makes no sense to me. For example,

599
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,479
Speaker 1: it was alleged at one point that A. C. D.

600
00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: C's Highway to Hell contained back masked lyrics, and when

601
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: asked about this, Anger's Young refuted it by saying, hey, well,

602
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 1: there's nothing subliminal about the the actual lyrics to the song.

603
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: Part of the lyrics are hey, Satan paying my dues

604
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: playing in a rocking band? Like what if? Like what

605
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: why do you need to also hide the Satanism? If

606
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,479
Speaker 1: you're basically saying praise Satan right there in the lyrics,

607
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: I don't get it. And there were these were but

608
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 1: these were real accusations with potentially real consequences for bands

609
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 1: and record companies at the time. For instance, one accusation

610
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: that picked up steam among evangelicals, especially at the time.

611
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: And this is one that I imagine a lot of

612
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: you have heard, and there are examples of this. You

613
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: can pull up on Wikipedia for the entry for this song.

614
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: But led Zeppelin Stairway to Heaven classic rock song, like

615
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: it's it's a song that, uh, I think it is great,

616
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: but I couldn't tell you because I've heard it too

617
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: many times on the radio. So it's it's not my

618
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: favorite led Zeppelin song because I've just heard it too

619
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,439
Speaker 1: many times. It would not be like in the top

620
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 1: ten for me. And it contains it does contain some

621
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: actual lyrics. That's that go as follows. If there's a

622
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 1: bustle in your hedgerow don't be alarmed. Now I'm not

623
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: entirely sure what that means, but that those are just

624
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: part of the lyrics to Stairway to Heaven. And the

625
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,839
Speaker 1: accusation is that if you play this backwards, then you

626
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,839
Speaker 1: hear the words here's to my sweet Satan, the one

627
00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 1: whose little path would make me sad, whose power is Satan.

628
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: He'll give you, He'll give you six six six. There

629
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: was a little tool shed where he made us suffer sad.

630
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 1: Satan way too elaborate for back basket, not a chance.

631
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 1: I mean I after I read this, I listened to

632
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: the example of it, and I mean it is it

633
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: is creepy to hear because you are hearing reverse language.

634
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 1: You are hearing uh, you are hearing something that sounds

635
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: like Satan. But then on the other hand, it's so

636
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: ridiculous sounding, like what does this even mean? Like if

637
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 1: I were to take this at face value, why what

638
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:29,800
Speaker 1: is the tool shed doing for me in this scenario?

639
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: Like nothing in this is is is really all that

640
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: creepy compared to any actual Satanic lyrics, So really there

641
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 1: are there are plenty of examples in led Zeppelin's lyrics

642
00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: that are, on the face more shocking than what we

643
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: have right here in the alleged back masking. I mean,

644
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 1: I mean, and also I think, um, certain words just

645
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: when they get reversed automatically kind of sound creepy. Like.

646
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: For example, I remember Yoko on No got accused of this.

647
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: She had a song called kiss, Kiss, Kiss, and of

648
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,959
Speaker 1: course when you play kiss kiss kiss backwards, it's six

649
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: six six for sure. And um, you know I I yeah,

650
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:11,760
Speaker 1: I think certain words just sound easily like other words backwards.

651
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: But I don't believe for a moment that this many

652
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:21,200
Speaker 1: words could sound good forwards and backwards, not for a second. Yeah,

653
00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: I mean, also the weird exercise you'd have to go

654
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: through to get to this point. Um. I think the

655
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,800
Speaker 1: other important thing is like when you when you reverse lyrics,

656
00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 1: when you reverse words, you're gonna get other sounds. But

657
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,120
Speaker 1: those sounds are not going to have real context until

658
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,959
Speaker 1: you give them contexts and you you say like, well, yeah,

659
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 1: that that sound, that that kind of six six six sound,

660
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: it's gonna sound like like six six six, uh, that

661
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: sort of thing. Yeah, it's a real Laurel or Yanny situation. Yeah,

662
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 1: I think the other telling thing about this, but first

663
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: of all, it's an accusation that Robert Plant and their

664
00:36:56,160 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: audio engineer at the time refuted um and and unlike

665
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: with the Beatles, it doesn't seem like the band or

666
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: those involved in producing the tracks really found this technique

667
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: all that interesting. And I don't know this is maybe

668
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: just me, but I feel like if they had actually

669
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 1: done this on purpose, It's one thing to cover it

670
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:18,280
Speaker 1: up during the the initial period of satanic panic during

671
00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: the you know, certainly in the eighties and even nineties,

672
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: But it seems like if this, if they had actually

673
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: backmasked some content here and gone to some links to

674
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 1: put some satanic silliness in here, it would have come

675
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: out right like how great are are the surviving members

676
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: of led Zeppelin going to really be at keeping secrets

677
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:40,320
Speaker 1: like this? I mean, um, I think when these things happened,

678
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: Like another example of this that was famous at the

679
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: time was the supposed sinking of playing Pink Floyd's Dark

680
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: Side of the Moon with the Wizard of Oz, and

681
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: I gave you this whole experience with the two lined

682
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 1: up perfectly, and everyone in Pink Floyd is like, how

683
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: would we do that? You know, like the we were

684
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: just like in a studio. Everything's analog, like we didn't

685
00:38:00,600 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: have like, you know, no, of course not, of course

686
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 1: we couldn't have done that, you know, yeah, or like

687
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: can you imagine that the reality where they're like, yes,

688
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 1: this is actually how we make all of our albums.

689
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: We we pick a classic movie, we play it, and

690
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: we just match things up with what's happening on the screen. Um.

691
00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: I mean that could be somebody's artistic um technique, but yeah,

692
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: it's just those connections are not made by the creator.

693
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 1: Those connections are made by on your end when you

694
00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: combine two things and look for meaning between those two things,

695
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: which can be fun, but don't believe it, you know,

696
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 1: like fun is fun as long as you don't believe

697
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 1: this nonsense. Yeah, enjoy it, but don't ruin by going

698
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 1: too far into rank. So I mentioned that there were

699
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: potential real consequences for all this, Like it got to

700
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 1: the point where there were actually some lawmakers that were

701
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 1: interested in demanding backtracking warnings on our albums so that

702
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: consumers would could be aware that there might be hidden messages,

703
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: which is ridiculous to imagine, like may contain hidden messages

704
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: that may contained electric guitar. And this is another thing

705
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: getting back to I mentioned earlier, how when you have

706
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 1: the full tools of language at your disposal, there's so

707
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: many things you can do to manipulate people, to um,

708
00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:25,680
Speaker 1: to hide your message, to say something kind of cheeky

709
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: so that some people get it but others don't. There's

710
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: plenty of stuff you can do with UM with language

711
00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: that hasn't been reversed, and great lyricists are going to

712
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 1: be able to use those tools. Like doing this whole

713
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,720
Speaker 1: backtracking technique is just such a crude and ineffective way

714
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 1: of hiding your secret message if you actually have a

715
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,280
Speaker 1: secret message you want to get out there, and especially

716
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 1: too if you want to keep it a secret for

717
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: most people. Like like, for example, UM, let's say you're

718
00:39:52,640 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 1: trying to send a secret message on a sheet of

719
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 1: paper and you just write each of the letters backwards,

720
00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: so you have to hold it up and look at

721
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: it in the mirror to read the best. Yeah, someone's

722
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 1: going to figure it out. Like now, let let's let's

723
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 1: say you take the first letter of each word in

724
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 1: your lyrics and it spells a new secret message. Hey,

725
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: that's that's going to be actually harder to decipher, you know,

726
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:15,400
Speaker 1: So it's it's not even a very good secret message. Yeah,

727
00:40:15,440 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: I mean it. We mentioned Don McClain recently on the

728
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 1: show when we discussed the flight of Dragons, like American

729
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:27,360
Speaker 1: Pie has plenty of cryptic content within it and um

730
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: and and that is achieved without reversing anything. Right. So anyway,

731
00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 1: getting back to this idea that like, why why would

732
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 1: you need a label? Right, why would there need to

733
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: be a warning saying my contained secret messages because if

734
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:42,120
Speaker 1: it's backwards, I can't understand it. Right. Well, that's where

735
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,440
Speaker 1: we get into these claims, and I think these are

736
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 1: this is this is pretty much been refuted as pseudoscience

737
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:53,479
Speaker 1: at this point, but this idea that backmasked messages can

738
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:58,920
Speaker 1: be understood subconsciously even if you're not consciously understanding them.

739
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: So one of the main prop onent's of the power

740
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 1: of reverse speech is an individual by the name of

741
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 1: David John Oates. And this is a guy that's appeared

742
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,040
Speaker 1: on the likes of Coast to Coast. Uh. This is

743
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: the you know, the radio station radio show rather that's

744
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 1: popular and known for its various treatment of UFOs and

745
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: so forth. You know a lot of what I guess

746
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: you've described the sort of fringe ideas and Oates would

747
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:29,280
Speaker 1: discuss this, this notion that normal speech contains a smaller

748
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: percentage of backward speech that I'm not sure I even

749
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 1: understand exactly what the idea here is that maybe it

750
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 1: kind of cuts to the chase a bit that the

751
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: thing that you're sort of trying to say through with

752
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 1: forward facing speech, you're also saying, at least in a

753
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: simplistic form, through the reverse of the speech. There is

754
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:52,759
Speaker 1: an example that is sometimes used to support this, and

755
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: it's apparently if you take Neil Armstrong nine and saying

756
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,959
Speaker 1: small step for man, of course during the lunar landing,

757
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: if you were to reverse that, uh, it sounds something

758
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 1: like manual spacewalk. And um, this one I thought sounded

759
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 1: pretty pretty silly to me. I mean, what does that

760
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: even mean? Why? What? What? What's my take home from

761
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: that you have? If if this is some sort of

762
00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: meaningful content, like I guess it, it would at best

763
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: mean that the smart things that you say forwards sounds

764
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 1: stupid or backwards. It doesn't make any sense if if

765
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: it at least like predicted the future, it would be helpful,

766
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,280
Speaker 1: you know, like, um, oh, let's say he said small

767
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 1: step for man and then in reverse. It it actually

768
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: said like, hey, watch out for that rock over there,

769
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 1: you're gonna trip over. It's like that would be helpful.

770
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 1: He could use that information, you know, But but no, this,

771
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: this is this is nothing. This is nonsense. Yeah. So

772
00:42:46,680 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 1: again this has been widely refuted in scientific literature pseudo science,

773
00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: and one of the central arguments is that, okay, with

774
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: with Oates work and with well not even just Oats work,

775
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 1: but just in general, if you're trying to push this

776
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: idea that that the thing that you're about to hear

777
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:05,760
Speaker 1: reversed is going to say something else, it depends heavily

778
00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: on priming. Uh, you're being you're given an idea of

779
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 1: what you were about to hear backwards. And I encountered

780
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: that time and time again researching for this episode. Like

781
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 1: when you go to the the the audio audio examples

782
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 1: on the Wikipedia for Stairway to Heaven, it tells you

783
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: what you're about to hear, what you're gonna hear straightforward,

784
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:30,200
Speaker 1: and what you were expected to hear uh in reverse.

785
00:43:30,640 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 1: So you're you're going into a it to it to

786
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 1: it looking for that template to line up. But what's

787
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,279
Speaker 1: really going on is something called paraidolia. This is the

788
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:42,200
Speaker 1: tendency for humans to find meaning in something, be it

789
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:44,879
Speaker 1: uh seeing a face in the surface of the moon,

790
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 1: secret messages in a reverse song, uh, connections between this

791
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: album and this movie when this movie is played on mute,

792
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And it's I mean, it's a

793
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: powerful force. It's it's a it's something that guides a

794
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: lot of our creativity that we can look at, like

795
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: a smear on the wall. We can look at a

796
00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 1: cloud in the sky and we can we can we

797
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 1: can lean into a version of it that's not there.

798
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 1: We can make we can apply some sort of logic

799
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,439
Speaker 1: to it and and create fantasy. And I think that,

800
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: I mean, that's I feel like, easily the far more

801
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,920
Speaker 1: sensible way of understanding any kind of sense that seems

802
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: to come out of reverse speech. I'm extremely skeptical of

803
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: the notion that meaningful reverse speech would simply emerge from

804
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 1: traditional speech UM, as well as the idea that meaningful

805
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 1: information could then be understood by our brain even on

806
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 1: like a subliminal level like mad Dog and God damn,

807
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 1: sorry to have to curse again, but this is the

808
00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:47,959
Speaker 1: one of the historical examples. UM. These ideas are maybe

809
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: not completely unconnected from each other. Um, but they're also

810
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: like there's not really a strong meaningful connection either, Like

811
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what the argument would be between those

812
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 1: two were. And it's funny too because and then the

813
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 1: argument is, oh, but only in English, you know, because

814
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 1: these words, let's say we say them in French instead,

815
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:11,760
Speaker 1: the two words will not be the same two words

816
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: forward and backwards. You won't you won't be the same

817
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: message no matter what it's. It's basically impossible. So so no,

818
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 1: you know, it's like when people make arguments about um,

819
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: oh great predictions followed through like the Mayan calendar or something,

820
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:28,439
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, but they didn't use like leap days

821
00:45:28,480 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 1: like we do you know, like what time zone were

822
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: they using? Like like like these things don't line up,

823
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:38,399
Speaker 1: like like different cultures have different um ways to kind

824
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 1: of like uh parcel out our lives, and they don't

825
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 1: match up across culturally. So so you can't just say

826
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: something is a universal truth. It's just like, well, maybe

827
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: that only works in English for me. When I have

828
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 1: the words written down, and uh, I was looking at

829
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: a couple of sources on this, you cat a little

830
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 1: more depth in it, uh In a R Vokey and J. D.

831
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 1: Reid suggested that some information might pass through when you

832
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:13,239
Speaker 1: were when you were reversing using reversed audio, but they

833
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 1: were also very firm on the matter being misrepresented in

834
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: the media. Uh In this in and one of their papers,

835
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,520
Speaker 1: they write, quote, is there any evidence to warrant assertations

836
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 1: that such such messages affect our behavior across a wide

837
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 1: variety of tasks? We were unable to find any evidence

838
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 1: to support such a claim. Secondarily, we present evidence to

839
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 1: suggest that the apparent presence of backward messages in popular

840
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:41,920
Speaker 1: music is a function more of active construction on the

841
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 1: part of the perceiver than of the existence of the

842
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: messages themselves. Right. It was like a raw shack test. Yeah, yeah,

843
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 1: And and this I think is extremely telling to at

844
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,720
Speaker 1: two thousand one study by Kriner, Altis and Voss found

845
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: that quote no priming effect was found for backwards messages,

846
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 1: although there were significant priming for forward messages. The results

847
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: are not consistent with an effect of reverse speech on

848
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: word processing. And I think that's this is really key,

849
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: because we know that priming works with forward with normal language,

850
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,319
Speaker 1: that I can say something to you and I can

851
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: prime you for something and the effects of that priming

852
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 1: is measurable through experimentation. So if if if something was

853
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 1: to come through via reversed audio through back masking, it

854
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: would have an effect on priming, and we would be

855
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:37,680
Speaker 1: able to measure that. And there's nothing to measure because

856
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 1: it doesn't work. It doesn't do that. Now that being said,

857
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:44,560
Speaker 1: there there's still plenty of fun examples of back masking

858
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: in in music. One that that came up for me

859
00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:50,239
Speaker 1: and this is another example of the song that I've

860
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:54,160
Speaker 1: heard many times, but I did not really think about

861
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:55,919
Speaker 1: the back masking in it because I'm just so used

862
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 1: to hearing this technique. It's cool, but I don't give

863
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,319
Speaker 1: it a lot of second thought or even wonder what's

864
00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: being reversed. But there's a there's a Great Boards of

865
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 1: Canada album Geogatti, and there's a track titled you Could

866
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:13,000
Speaker 1: Feel the Sky, and there's definitely some back mask audio

867
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 1: in there, and it may be reverse. It seems like

868
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:20,279
Speaker 1: it's likely a reversal of a clip from I think

869
00:48:20,320 --> 00:48:24,200
Speaker 1: a documentary on paganism that says the God with horns,

870
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 1: and I guess this is maybe just kind of a

871
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: cheeky nod to backmasking. History. Uh and and some of

872
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 1: the you know, the Satanic panic ideas, which of course

873
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 1: Boards of Canada would have very much been familiar with.

874
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,240
Speaker 1: And there's still so many examples too of people going

875
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:43,160
Speaker 1: into business for themselves on back masking, playing stuff backwards,

876
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 1: sharing it on YouTube and saying, hey, clearly, if you

877
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 1: play this Black Sabbath lyric backwards, you hear I want

878
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:53,640
Speaker 1: to be like Jesus. Stuff like that. I mean, there's

879
00:48:54,840 --> 00:48:57,439
Speaker 1: if you're just going into it purely for fun. Yes,

880
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 1: there's probably some some fun and amusing quote unquot discoveries

881
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 1: to make there, but just keep in mind that it's

882
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 1: just as much meaning as can be applied to spilling

883
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 1: some alphabet soup on the floor and seeing how many

884
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 1: words are spelled outs you know exactly. That can be fun,

885
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 1: but there's no meeting there. I thought it was put

886
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:20,280
Speaker 1: really well in a piece and salon written by Eric Davis.

887
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 1: This piece was title what Exactly lyrics within the background

888
00:49:23,120 --> 00:49:26,759
Speaker 1: rooves of Stairway to Heaven quote. Soon, backmasking became the

889
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 1: Satanic panic du jour, giving paranoid Christians technological proof that

890
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: rock bands like Queen Kiss and Sticks. And then there's

891
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 1: an exclamation point in partheses did indeed play the devil's music.

892
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 1: While most people Christian or otherwise found all this rather silly,

893
00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 1: these fears did reflect more pervasive fears that the media

894
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,879
Speaker 1: had become a subliminal master of puppets, fears that would

895
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 1: themselves come to inspire some nineteen eighties metal and I

896
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 1: think this this one might have also been the paper

897
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,640
Speaker 1: to point out that you also get these ridiculous images

898
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 1: and ridiculous footage of of of the some of the

899
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:10,320
Speaker 1: provocateurs of Satanic panic, some of the the individuals that

900
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 1: were making these accusations messing around with record players and

901
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 1: playing stuff backwards and just really gazing hard and deep

902
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: and trying to find evidence of Satan in the reversed audio. Hey,

903
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 1: you know, everyone needs a hobby. I'm glad they're having fun.

904
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 1: Good for them. How about you, sef, Do you have

905
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:29,879
Speaker 1: any any favorite examples of bat masking? You know, yeah,

906
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,439
Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah. I have one that I absolutely love,

907
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 1: not only because I think it's a fun example of,

908
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 1: you know, kind of how this can influence the songs

909
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 1: writing and kind of create a finished product, but also

910
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:42,239
Speaker 1: just because I think it's a lovely song off of

911
00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: a wonderful album by one of my favorite bands. Here's

912
00:50:45,640 --> 00:50:48,919
Speaker 1: an example. Uh, this is off of radio Heads two

913
00:50:48,920 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 1: thousand and one album Amnesiac. There's a very alien sounding

914
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 1: song called like Spinning Plates. It sounds so odd because

915
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 1: it originally started off as a song called I Will,

916
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: which is very funny because radio had eventually actually finished

917
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 1: that song and released it on a later album. But

918
00:51:06,320 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: enough about that. They were trying to record this song

919
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:12,360
Speaker 1: during this recording session called I Will, and they just

920
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: couldn't get it to work. They were just messing around

921
00:51:14,560 --> 00:51:16,720
Speaker 1: with it, doing whatever, and at one point they decided

922
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: to play it backwards and they're like, yeah, that's it.

923
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 1: That's that's the album I want to hear. So they

924
00:51:22,120 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 1: had this, uh, this instrumental for this song backwards, and

925
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: the like, this is good, this is good, and so

926
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 1: so Tomy York, the lead singer. He created a new

927
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: vocal melody to go over it. But when you when

928
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 1: you played the forward vocal melody over the backwards song,

929
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 1: it just didn't quite line up. It just didn't sound right.

930
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 1: They didn't mesh together. So what he decided to do

931
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 1: instead was to phonetically take the words he wanted to say,

932
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 1: reverse them and then sing it backwards. He was obviously

933
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 1: singing forward in real time, but he's singing the backwards

934
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 1: result of what he wanted. So when he reversed it,

935
00:51:59,360 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 1: it would sound like forward words. So I'll say that

936
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:06,839
Speaker 1: in a more succinct way. Tom York made up new

937
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 1: words that were phonetically the backwards version of his new

938
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 1: forward vocals, and then reverse the recording, creating lyrics that

939
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:19,680
Speaker 1: sounded forward in the final song but are actually being reversed.

940
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:23,839
Speaker 1: A very similar system was used in the TV show

941
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:26,760
Speaker 1: Twin Peaks for the character the Man from Another Place

942
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 1: a k a. The Arm. He's the guy that's like,

943
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,800
Speaker 1: you know sometimes my arms been back. You know that

944
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: that you like will come back in style? That guy

945
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 1: that that's very similar system. Yeah. But but as as

946
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 1: we'll point out, just like all this discussion we've been having,

947
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: that character of the Man from Another Place from Twin Peaks,

948
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,799
Speaker 1: he always had subtitles because would you really be able

949
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 1: to understand what he was saying backwards if there weren't

950
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 1: subtitles there. I don't know. That's a that's a great point,

951
00:52:54,560 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 1: and it's a key point. Now. I love Radiohead and

952
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 1: and I love Tom York's um vocals. Tom new York's

953
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 1: vocals almost seemed like the perfect vocals to use in

954
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:09,760
Speaker 1: an experiment of reverse or because I don't know. Sometimes

955
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 1: I feel like I there's certain vocalists whose voices I

956
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,040
Speaker 1: I think of more as a musical instrument, like a

957
00:53:17,080 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 1: pure instrument, as opposed to a deliverer of actual linguistic information.

958
00:53:21,960 --> 00:53:24,600
Speaker 1: And I don't mean that as like a slam on them, um,

959
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 1: And it doesn't even necessarily mean that I can't understand

960
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:30,240
Speaker 1: what they're saying. I mean sometimes I think of people

961
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 1: like um, like Maynard from Tool. You know, It's like

962
00:53:33,000 --> 00:53:34,960
Speaker 1: I can understand the words he's saying, but I'm not

963
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:38,839
Speaker 1: really engaging with what he's saying on a lyrical level.

964
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 1: It's more about like the pure sound experience. And I

965
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 1: feel like that's that's what I have with Tom York. Well,

966
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:45,920
Speaker 1: if you look at like the kind of the hallmarks

967
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 1: of reversed audio and what's really changing. Uh, The big key,

968
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,319
Speaker 1: the thing that we cannot create with forward sounds and

969
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 1: can only be created backwards is when anything percussive occurs,

970
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 1: it goes and like a big sound at the beginning

971
00:54:01,719 --> 00:54:04,319
Speaker 1: and then it trails off very quickly. So when you

972
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:06,600
Speaker 1: hear that backwards, especially, think about something like the sound

973
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: of like a drum being played backwards. It's like which,

974
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 1: which is a very iconic backwards sound. I suppose, you know,

975
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 1: I'm the one who edits these episodes. I could just

976
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:18,960
Speaker 1: put in a reverse sound there, but no, no, no,

977
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 1: I like making with my mouth instead. But but yeah,

978
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:24,919
Speaker 1: I think that's a big part of it. And Tom

979
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 1: York has a very vowel heavy, very floaty, ethereal singing style,

980
00:54:30,600 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 1: a lot lots of oos and os and moaning and

981
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 1: kind of like soft sounds. So because of that, forwards

982
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 1: and backwards doesn't affect it too much. You know, he's

983
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:42,800
Speaker 1: not a percussive, you know, singer, and the percussion is

984
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:48,320
Speaker 1: really what signifies, oh, something's backwards here. So huh, all right, everybody,

985
00:54:48,360 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 1: that's gonna have to be side A and you're gonna

986
00:54:51,239 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 1: have to flip it over for side b Uh. We

987
00:54:54,640 --> 00:54:57,319
Speaker 1: ended up reaching the point where we're gonna have to

988
00:54:57,320 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 1: cut this one in half, but we'll be back in

989
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:01,239
Speaker 1: the next episode. Stuff to blow your mind seth Will

990
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:04,319
Speaker 1: and I will continue this discussion and we'll get more

991
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,799
Speaker 1: into physical media, we're start we're we'll start talking about

992
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:12,240
Speaker 1: essentially enter the labyrinth of Vinyl records. In the meantime,

993
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 1: I'll just remind everybody that core episodes of Stuff to

994
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind published on Tuesdays and Thursdays, and the

995
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed Monday's we do

996
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:22,799
Speaker 1: listener mail. Wednesday's we do a short form artifact or

997
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 1: monster effect. On on on Fridays we do Weird how Cinema.

998
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 1: That's our time to set aside most serious concerns and

999
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:30,759
Speaker 1: just talk about a weird film. By the time you're

1000
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 1: listening to this, I think Joe is actually back, so uh,

1001
00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:37,160
Speaker 1: we should be welcoming Joe back on some episodes in

1002
00:55:37,239 --> 00:55:40,879
Speaker 1: the very near future. But we recorded these episodes ahead

1003
00:55:40,920 --> 00:55:44,280
Speaker 1: of time. And as always, thanks to Seth Nicholas Johnson

1004
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:46,600
Speaker 1: for not only co hosting but of course producing Stuff

1005
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:47,919
Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind. And if you want to reach

1006
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,040
Speaker 1: out to any of us, if you have feedback on

1007
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:53,600
Speaker 1: this episode of thoughts about reversed music and so forth,

1008
00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:55,880
Speaker 1: will you can email us at contact. It's Stuff to

1009
00:55:55,880 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind

1010
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 1: is production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for

1011
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio This is the I Heart Radio app,

1012
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.