Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, I'm Katie Kurig, and this is next question.
Speaker 1: Charlene Hunter Galt has spent nearly sixty years chronicling history
Speaker 1: as a journalist, but when she was just nineteen, she
Speaker 1: played a central role in making it. On January nine, nine,
Speaker 1: she and her classmate Hamiltons Holmes bravely walked onto the
Speaker 1: University of Georgia campus, becoming the first two black students
Speaker 1: to integrate the school. Her career took her to some
Speaker 1: of the most respected media outlets in the country, including
Speaker 1: The New Yorker, The New York Times, and the PBS
Speaker 1: News Hour, But as one of the few black journalists
Speaker 1: reporting for a largely white audience, she knew she had
Speaker 1: to do more. So she made it her mission to cover,
Speaker 1: in her words, black people in ways they were rarely
Speaker 1: portrayed in the media, in their full humanity. Her new book,
Speaker 1: My People, Five Decades of Right being about Black lives,
Speaker 1: is a collection of many of her writings. Here's our conversation.
Speaker 1: It's a huge honor to have you, Charlene, and I'm
Speaker 1: excited to talk to you about this book because when
Speaker 1: I think about your reporting through the years, I think
Speaker 1: how your work really so well reflects where we are
Speaker 1: as a country and how we've evolved or we haven't
Speaker 1: evolved through the decades. And I'm curious why you thought
Speaker 1: it would be helpful to put this collection of your
Speaker 1: reporting of over the last five decades together. Now, well,
Speaker 1: it's been a little bit of time putting it together,
Speaker 1: but we've had some challenges for a little bit of time.
Speaker 1: And one of the things I noticed is that while
Speaker 1: it seems as if we are getting more representation by
Speaker 1: people of color on the air, um, we still have
Speaker 1: a bit of a ways to go to get good
Speaker 1: equal representation of all people, especially people of color. And
Speaker 1: I also think that as we have some today some
Speaker 1: opposition to teaching black history, I think that I'm hoping
Speaker 1: that this book will help people who are in that
Speaker 1: arena to appreciate that black history can be positive. And
Speaker 1: part of the problem is that over the years, we
Speaker 1: haven't had enough good quote unquote coverage of people of
Speaker 1: color for people to understand why it's important to have
Speaker 1: good representation of people of color in the media. And
Speaker 1: I'm just hoping because I'm willing to talk to anybody
Speaker 1: about this, and so I'm hoping that this book will
Speaker 1: in fact help people who are having issues with black
Speaker 1: history to stop stop having issues. But it's it's been
Speaker 1: so weaponized, hasn't it, And I think people don't even
Speaker 1: necessarily it's sort of I always say, people have opinions
Speaker 1: without portfolio. They don't even understand the nuances and the
Speaker 1: complexities of the topic about which they're speaking or opining.
Speaker 1: And I hope that people who may be in that category,
Speaker 1: who have misrepresented critical race theory or think that talking
Speaker 1: to black about black history is designed to make white
Speaker 1: people feel guilt, shame and bad about themselves, that that
Speaker 1: they are able to be open to a sensible conversation
Speaker 1: about what we're really talking about. You know, I'm happy
Speaker 1: to have that conversation. And also I want to say,
Speaker 1: as I've been saying, that we have to be very
Speaker 1: careful about generalizations because from the beginning of time, our
Speaker 1: time here in America, we've had white people involved in
Speaker 1: our struggle, that is the struggle of black people for
Speaker 1: equal opportunity, and some have died for us. And again,
Speaker 1: I hope to make that clear as I talk to people,
Speaker 1: as I go around the country with the book, I
Speaker 1: want to talk to people who may not see things
Speaker 1: through the same lens as I do. But I'm willing
Speaker 1: to talk to them, and I'm willing to I'm hoping
Speaker 1: that they want to talk to me because I think
Speaker 1: that we can get somewhere. I really do not. Maybe
Speaker 1: that's the p K that is the preacher's kid in me,
Speaker 1: but um I I still feel that we can make
Speaker 1: a difference if we share our stories and if we
Speaker 1: are willing to talk to people who don't necessarily agree
Speaker 1: with us. I haven't had too much of that, but
Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember, but when I was
Speaker 1: in South Africa covering apartheid, one of the things that
Speaker 1: was important to me was to talk to the people
Speaker 1: who was who were a part of the apartheid system,
Speaker 1: so we could get into their heads and maybe they
Speaker 1: could get into well, not necessarily my head, because I
Speaker 1: wasn't giving my opinion, but I was asking questions that
Speaker 1: may have indicated what my opinion was. But it worked
Speaker 1: out and they were not hostile, and so I really
Speaker 1: do take from that and other experiences that I've had
Speaker 1: with people who don't always see things the same way.
Speaker 1: I'm hoping that this book will help us keep on
Speaker 1: that track. Why why do you think we've lost our
Speaker 1: ability to have those conversations, to basically sit with people
Speaker 1: from different backgrounds, different sort of circumstances, different lenses, and
Speaker 1: actually kind of listen to each other. Because you know, Charlene,
Speaker 1: I just don't think that happens anymore. Well, we have
Speaker 1: media now that promotes uh difference and and and negatively
Speaker 1: when it comes to the people I've written about, and
Speaker 1: also black history. I'm not sure how that came about,
Speaker 1: but I have a thought now that you've asked that question.
Speaker 1: You're so brilliant with your questions all. You're so nice, Charlene.
Speaker 1: I just, Charlene, I'm just asking what you know. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's what I what pops into my head,
Speaker 1: and you know, trying to trying to come up with
Speaker 1: solutions for some of this stuff. Well, you know, one
Speaker 1: of the things I've done on the news hour PPS
Speaker 1: News Hour is do a series on conversations about race
Speaker 1: and people who have come up with solutions and they
Speaker 1: are out there, and I just think that, you know what,
Speaker 1: there was a time when we had three channels, and
Speaker 1: sometimes I wish we could go back to that. I know,
Speaker 1: I know, but you know I was on this um
Speaker 1: Disinformation Commission with Rashad Robinson and a Color of Change.
Speaker 1: And you know, whenever I would would be nostalgic about
Speaker 1: the good old days, he say, you know, Katie, those
Speaker 1: days had very few opportunities for for people of color,
Speaker 1: you know, And so um, I I feel the same way,
Speaker 1: because it felt like it could be controlled in terms
Speaker 1: of the editorial veracity and the content of things, but
Speaker 1: in terms of opportunities. Um that that they weren't necessarily
Speaker 1: the good old days. Well, I think that far too
Speaker 1: many people today are getting their information from Twitter, right,
Speaker 1: and and and other vehicles that require minimum wordage and
Speaker 1: not a lot of thought. I mean, I went on
Speaker 1: Twitter this morning and well it was not what I
Speaker 1: hope it could be. But I talked to a very educated,
Speaker 1: intelligent woman the other day and she was complaining about
Speaker 1: something going on in the country, and I said, well, what,
Speaker 1: what what do you want? Who do you watch on television?
Speaker 1: I don't watch television anymore. And I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people have just gotten turned off, but we can't.
Speaker 1: You know. It comes out of civil rights movement that
Speaker 1: I grew up with. And I'm just I tell people
Speaker 1: I don't feel no ways tired. That's a phrase from
Speaker 1: from the civil rights movement. But we've got to figure
Speaker 1: out better ways of communicating with people, because, as you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of our local newspapers are dying, even our
Speaker 1: black newspapers are dying. And that's inexcusable because in spite
Speaker 1: of the economic situation that has gone on for a
Speaker 1: number of years, there are people with money, and people
Speaker 1: with money who could have influence with that money if
Speaker 1: they used it to those ends. So, you know, I
Speaker 1: think maybe some of my wealthy friends are going to
Speaker 1: be upset about that, but I think that's the way
Speaker 1: to go. We've we've got to figure out how to
Speaker 1: communicate in a in a positive way, even with people
Speaker 1: who don't agree with us. And I just think if
Speaker 1: we could sit down with them in quiet spaces and talk,
Speaker 1: I think it could make a difference. I would like
Speaker 1: to share some of my stories with people who are
Speaker 1: now saying they don't want this history taught in schools.
Speaker 1: I would like to go there and and talk to
Speaker 1: some of those people. I mean, our information has been
Speaker 1: so deleted from everything. I mean. I was at a
Speaker 1: school in Sarasota, Florida, predominantly black, and a predominantly black
Speaker 1: professor had invited me, and I had mentioned, uh, the
Speaker 1: Brown decision, the Brown Versus Board of Education decision which
Speaker 1: outlawed sept but equal in schools, And on the way
Speaker 1: out to the car, this lovely young black woman teacher
Speaker 1: walking with me, and she said, can I make a confession?
Speaker 1: I said, of course, And I thought she's gonna tell
Speaker 1: me something. Really, you know, sexy, she said, I myself
Speaker 1: black woman who grew up in Mississippi, and she must
Speaker 1: have been in her late thirties early forties. She had
Speaker 1: never heard of the Brown decision. Now that's inexcusable. Come on, wow, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's really It says something about our education system
Speaker 1: and how it needs to be fixed as well. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I could not agree with you more. But when it
Speaker 1: comes to the media, I was just while you were talking,
Speaker 1: pulling up something on my phone which I saw earlier
Speaker 1: this morning that said Americans distrust in the media. Is
Speaker 1: that a record high? As for the first time ever,
Speaker 1: the percentage of Americans with no trust at all in
Speaker 1: the media is higher than the percentage of those with
Speaker 1: a great deal or fair amount combined. According to a
Speaker 1: recent Gallop, Pole did that make you cry. Oh, it
Speaker 1: just broke my heart. But I know I'm not surprised.
Speaker 1: And I think, as you know, News Hour is one
Speaker 1: of the last uh you know, news programs. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess the evening news, but those are so short
Speaker 1: twenty two minutes. But where they're sort of haven't been
Speaker 1: co opted by the left of the right, right right,
Speaker 1: and uh and they're doing a good job, and they've
Speaker 1: even become more diverse. Um and and you know, they've
Speaker 1: always been committed to what Jim Lera used to say,
Speaker 1: you know, give people good information and they'll do the
Speaker 1: right thing. Yeah, but we're challenged today about how to
Speaker 1: get that good information to people because not everybody like
Speaker 1: you is tuning into the News Hour right when we
Speaker 1: come back, Charlene recalls her first harrowing few days at
Speaker 1: the University of Georgia. Well, let's talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about your career for people who are not as familiar
Speaker 1: with your extraordinary body of work. I know that you
Speaker 1: love Brenda Star as a girl, and so did I.
Speaker 1: I loved Brenda Star. I used to and and I
Speaker 1: I used to love her clothes I don't know, almost
Speaker 1: a little girl. And but that you know. Did you know,
Speaker 1: because I think it only became a known recently that
Speaker 1: the person who created Brenda Star was a woman. I didn't,
Speaker 1: but it was. It was it was during those years
Speaker 1: when there was degregation of you know that affective women
Speaker 1: as well as people of color, and so she went.
Speaker 1: I think it was by a pseudonym, but she sure
Speaker 1: did create. And you know, once I here's what was
Speaker 1: so wonderful about that when I told my mother in
Speaker 1: a segregated town and society that I wanted to be
Speaker 1: like Brenda Star. She didn't said, oh no, that's not
Speaker 1: what a little black girl could do in this time.
Speaker 1: She said, very casually, okay, if that's what you want
Speaker 1: to do. And that inspired me. And then I let
Speaker 1: your mom, by the way, yes lord. And then I
Speaker 1: went to an all black school that was, you know,
Speaker 1: didn't have the same things that the white schools had,
Speaker 1: but they had our history. And that's when Ida B.
Speaker 1: Wells became my second role model, because Ida B. Wells
Speaker 1: was a black journalist back in the days of segregation,
Speaker 1: and yet she she worked as a journalist and she
Speaker 1: worked as an activist trying to bring about the promise
Speaker 1: of our constitution and democracy So I had a black
Speaker 1: woman and a white woman who were my inspirations, and
Speaker 1: I'm very proud of that and grateful for it. I
Speaker 1: wonder why there has never been a biopic of Ida B. Wells.
Speaker 1: I don't know. You know, that's something that we can do.
Speaker 1: We want to help me out. Sure, Sure, let's get
Speaker 1: as an actor and a director in California. He's always
Speaker 1: looking for stones. I'll ask him and say, this is
Speaker 1: this is territory that needs to be covered and tackled. Well,
Speaker 1: your mom encouraged you, and then of course she were
Speaker 1: one of the first two students to integrate the University
Speaker 1: of Georgia, and you've volunteered to be that person. Is
Speaker 1: that something your mom encouraged you do to do as well? Charlene,
Speaker 1: My mom supported it, but I was encouraged to do
Speaker 1: it by some very progressive black men in Atlanta. M.
Speaker 1: Carl Holman was one, you may know that name, and
Speaker 1: there were it was a group of activists black men,
Speaker 1: one of the doctor and I forget the others right now,
Speaker 1: but they were all very progressive people and they felt
Speaker 1: that in Georgia. I think it was maybe nineteen fifty
Speaker 1: nine and the brown decision was five or six years
Speaker 1: earlier that it was time for Georgia to step up.
Speaker 1: So they came to my high school and asked the
Speaker 1: principal for two top students. And Hamilton and I were
Speaker 1: good friends, but we were also competitors. And so when they,
Speaker 1: you know, the principal set set for us because we
Speaker 1: were first and second in our class, and we said,
Speaker 1: of course, And so they took us down to Georgia State. Well,
Speaker 1: here's how our history created armor for us, armor in
Speaker 1: our minds, hearts, brains, everything. Because Hamilton's was I have
Speaker 1: to admit looked at the curriculum. I had looked at
Speaker 1: it too, but he was the first to speak, and
Speaker 1: he said, this doesn't have what's gonna prepare me for
Speaker 1: what I wanna do. I want to be a doctor,
Speaker 1: and I don't like this curriculum. And then I said, yeah,
Speaker 1: me too, and then he went on. He stepped out
Speaker 1: on the deck of the school and looked north and
Speaker 1: pointed and said, I want to go there. Well, that
Speaker 1: was you g A and Athens, Georgia, and it was um.
Speaker 1: The reason the men sort of hesitated was because they
Speaker 1: didn't know anybody in Athens and the way down there
Speaker 1: was through places where ku Klux klaners had headquarters and things.
Speaker 1: But in the end they figured out how to protect us,
Speaker 1: and that's how we got there. Three days after you
Speaker 1: arrived on campus, students rioted outside your dorm room, and
Speaker 1: in fact, one of them even threw a brick through
Speaker 1: your window. What do you remember about that night? I
Speaker 1: remember being surprised, being a black Southern girl brought up
Speaker 1: in the A. M. E. Church. I was first upset
Speaker 1: because the brick caused the rocks caused the glass out
Speaker 1: of my window to get all over my good clothes,
Speaker 1: which I hadn't had time to unpack. And then the
Speaker 1: house mother came and said, you know, the Dean is
Speaker 1: on the way here to suspend you for your own safety.
Speaker 1: And the tear gas that ostensibly had broken up the
Speaker 1: riots outside was still looming in the air. And so
Speaker 1: the next day when I got back to Atlanta, taken
Speaker 1: by the state patrol, Hamilton and I um, I was
Speaker 1: asked by a reporter how scared was that. I said, scared,
Speaker 1: wasn't scared and I hadn't focused on it, but I wasn't,
Speaker 1: And so they said why not? And that's where the
Speaker 1: p K and me comes out because my mom used
Speaker 1: to send my dear mother used to send me to
Speaker 1: my father's parents, who were a preacher. And I said,
Speaker 1: my grandmother was the saint and she used to teach
Speaker 1: me Bible verses every day. I didn't want to learn
Speaker 1: them because I wanted to climb the mango trees and
Speaker 1: run around and be a tom girl. But um uh,
Speaker 1: the verse that clearly was in my head. And I've
Speaker 1: looked at pictures of myself and I said, yes, that's
Speaker 1: what I was thinking. Yeah, though I walked through the
Speaker 1: valley of the Shadow of Death, I will fear no evil.
Speaker 1: That rod and that staff they comfort me all the
Speaker 1: days of my life. That was what was going on
Speaker 1: in my head. And I didn't even you know, it
Speaker 1: was so much a part of my psyche that I
Speaker 1: didn't even realize it. But I wasn't afraid. And you know,
Speaker 1: you look at some of the pictures that I have
Speaker 1: my mouth on a Virgin Mary statue. You know, I
Speaker 1: have a lot of identities, and one of them is
Speaker 1: a p K, a preacher's kid who was taught all
Speaker 1: those things. And I still I did a book talk
Speaker 1: the other day with the Reverend Otis Moss, the third
Speaker 1: out of the Trinity United Church in Chicago, and we went.
Speaker 1: Now he's a lot younger than me and and a
Speaker 1: brilliant minister, and we talked about the role of religion
Speaker 1: and and I think that while not everybody is into,
Speaker 1: you know, religion, I think there are lessons that we
Speaker 1: can all learn from and share and be protected by.
Speaker 1: I talked about our history as a suit of armor,
Speaker 1: and part of my armor was created by my sainted grandmother.
Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, not everybody's going to
Speaker 1: be religious and go to church and all that, but
Speaker 1: I think their lessons for even people who don't believe
Speaker 1: in church and whatever else it's associated with, well, clearly
Speaker 1: it gave you an enormous amount of strength. And I
Speaker 1: think in faith and and religion also you can find
Speaker 1: a life philosophy right that that obviously guided you through
Speaker 1: the years and became you know, incredibly important, gave you
Speaker 1: a foundation to face the many travails that that you've
Speaker 1: faced in your life. Even religion today is divided, and
Speaker 1: I've listened to some people on television, uh using religion
Speaker 1: and what I find is a very offensive way. Well
Speaker 1: it's kind of been ever thus the right, Charlaine, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, distorting and twisting religion, and you know,
Speaker 1: causing all kinds of strife and wars, and you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, but the only way we can get past
Speaker 1: that is to do what you and I are doing
Speaker 1: right now and what you have done all of your career,
Speaker 1: which is to try as best you and I can
Speaker 1: to tell the truth. And and sometimes we make mistakes.
Speaker 1: That's why in newspapers they have correction correction things, because
Speaker 1: we're we're human, and we do make stakes. But for
Speaker 1: the most part, I think we try to do our
Speaker 1: jobs and not make mistakes. And and and double checked
Speaker 1: and triple checked our sources. You were hired by the
Speaker 1: legendary editor of The New Yorker, William Sean after you graduated,
Speaker 1: and you became the magazine's first black staff writer. You've
Speaker 1: said that you were committed to writing about black people
Speaker 1: in ways that really they were rarely portrayed in the
Speaker 1: media in their full humanity. Right. You know, It's just
Speaker 1: so strange to me that we think this was not
Speaker 1: that long ago, Charlene, and and and and yet and
Speaker 1: yet people were not writing about black Americans. This way,
Speaker 1: and and and where did that idea come from? Well,
Speaker 1: you know, I may not have thought about it quite
Speaker 1: that way, but uh I did. And and the New Yorker,
Speaker 1: of course published some of the greatest writers of all time.
Speaker 1: I mean one of the heroes was J. D. Salinger.
Speaker 1: Uh and those, of course. But you know, you always
Speaker 1: look for openings where you can make a difference. And
Speaker 1: when I looked down at the very talented, wonderful writers
Speaker 1: like Calvin Trillon and Jared Jonas and so many others,
Speaker 1: I could mention Mary McCarthy and all of those. Uh,
Speaker 1: No one was really going into Harlem and spending time
Speaker 1: with people. And I think the only way you can.
Speaker 1: I mean, you can go and cover a quick one
Speaker 1: day story and and do the who, what, when, where
Speaker 1: and how. But it's another thing to go in depth
Speaker 1: and present people. And you have to do those quickie stories.
Speaker 1: But nobody at as I can remember, we're really doing
Speaker 1: any in debt and they didn't have to be long
Speaker 1: to be in depth. But nobody was looking at black
Speaker 1: people the way I experienced in my daily life because
Speaker 1: I worked with among them and so and also I
Speaker 1: wanted scoops, right, But that wasn't the main reason. It
Speaker 1: turns out I was getting scoops. But you know, to
Speaker 1: go to somebody, to to to talk to somebody like
Speaker 1: Lewis Michel, a tiny little black man who had a bookstore,
Speaker 1: uh close to a hundred and twenty fifth Street and
Speaker 1: and and Lynux Not wasn't Linux Street and seven and
Speaker 1: and he was just a delight and he would entertain
Speaker 1: He was entertaining prominent black writers and even white writers
Speaker 1: who were coming there because he had one of the
Speaker 1: largest collections by and about black people, probably well, certainly
Speaker 1: in New York, but maybe even in the country at
Speaker 1: that time. And he was just delightful. He's spoken couplets.
Speaker 1: And he was raised conscious too because in a very
Speaker 1: uh what shall I say, aggressive way, he used to
Speaker 1: say he's spoken couplets. And he used to say things
Speaker 1: like the white man's dream of being supreme has turned
Speaker 1: to sour cream. But you know it was it was,
Speaker 1: you know, one way. You know we talked earlier about
Speaker 1: how you can communicate with people and get them to
Speaker 1: understand and accept what you're talking about, well, poetry, it
Speaker 1: is one way. All the Oh, I don't know how
Speaker 1: many white people would have liked that that couplet, but
Speaker 1: he had other couplets. And he also had this collection
Speaker 1: of books that white writers who were interested in looking
Speaker 1: at the black experience in black history would come there
Speaker 1: and studied them. So we've had people who white people,
Speaker 1: black people, Asian people, all kinds of people who have
Speaker 1: been interested. Is just that it's been difficult. It was
Speaker 1: difficult up to a point to get those stories published.
Speaker 1: You later set up a Harlem bureau for the New
Speaker 1: York Times, and and did you face much resistance doing that? No,
Speaker 1: I mean, the only it was I wouldn't call it
Speaker 1: resistance because Arthur Gelb was a wonderful city editor at
Speaker 1: the Metropolitan editor at the New York Times, and he
Speaker 1: was the one that was several black reporters already at
Speaker 1: the Times, and they had recommended to him that he
Speaker 1: talked to me because I was coming to New York.
Speaker 1: I had journalistic experience with NBC and stuff, and so uh,
Speaker 1: he saw me, and one of the questions he asked,
Speaker 1: he said, okay, now, if you if I sent you
Speaker 1: to Harlem to cover a story about a black person man,
Speaker 1: I think he said, who had done something bad or
Speaker 1: who was in trouble. Would you be able to tell
Speaker 1: that story? And I said, I don't know. It would
Speaker 1: depend on what I found when I reported, because so
Speaker 1: many black people are wrongfully accused of things they didn't do,
Speaker 1: so it requires some looking into Well. I guess the
Speaker 1: answer was okay, because he hired me and then a
Speaker 1: few years later he let me set up the Harlem Bureau.
Speaker 1: So you know, I owe that to him and all
Speaker 1: of the other editors who trusted me to do my job.
Speaker 1: Fast forward to your time the News Hour, and you
Speaker 1: write about an experience with a white guest who seems
Speaker 1: surprised that you actually were the one interviewing him and
Speaker 1: apparently said to you, I guess it beats being a hairdresser. Yes,
Speaker 1: that was at the News Hour. And you know I
Speaker 1: said to myself, okay, be cool and respond, But you
Speaker 1: say here again, I had an opportunity to say, go
Speaker 1: to hell. But I also had an opportunity not to
Speaker 1: react and to open his mind right and to open
Speaker 1: his mind. So I think that while a little bit
Speaker 1: more pressure is put on some of us to represent
Speaker 1: as it were, um, that's our job, that's what we well,
Speaker 1: that's what I was born to do. I think, but
Speaker 1: so many of us. That's our job, uh, not to
Speaker 1: react in a way that you know, further angers the person,
Speaker 1: but to try to help educate and do it in
Speaker 1: a gentle way. I don't I don't think that you know,
Speaker 1: a boxer, it's going to be the one to make
Speaker 1: the difference. Now, you see, here's the thing I mentioned
Speaker 1: a boxer. Well, up until I started writing and and
Speaker 1: joining these news organizations, the people who got covered were
Speaker 1: people who were doing extraordinary things like Mom and Ali
Speaker 1: and and you know sports people are are actors or
Speaker 1: you know, people in unusual circumstances. Uh. But was their
Speaker 1: personal life being covered? No, And so that was part
Speaker 1: of again the motivation for me to do this book.
Speaker 1: Our people were not all prize fighters, winning prize fighters
Speaker 1: at that for that matter, but they were doing all
Speaker 1: kinds of things, and I think it made them. The
Speaker 1: pieces that I was doing, I hope made them human
Speaker 1: because as I wrote about Africa and the way it
Speaker 1: was being covered years ago, it was all the four
Speaker 1: days death, disaster, despair, um and other things that uh,
Speaker 1: you know, we're negative, We'll be right back. What do
Speaker 1: you think about the whole debate that's going on in newsrooms.
Speaker 1: I would think, particularly at The New York Times, about
Speaker 1: the role of journalists in society and the role of objectivity,
Speaker 1: if that even exists. I don't like objectivity. My computer
Speaker 1: is objective, although the day it had a problem getting
Speaker 1: my picture on your I've never liked that word. I
Speaker 1: like fair and balanced boxes. That's boxes motto. Yeah, fair
Speaker 1: and balance. Yeah. Well, I think it's true if you
Speaker 1: practice it. Um. But I also I'm a big proponent
Speaker 1: these days of a coalition of the generations because I
Speaker 1: think that you're younger than me, and there are others
Speaker 1: younger than both of us, but there are some older
Speaker 1: than us, and I think that we need to be
Speaker 1: able to share our experiences with the younger generation and
Speaker 1: talk to them about our successes and how we how
Speaker 1: we achieve them. And if you want to take positions,
Speaker 1: then get on an editorial board. Um. If you want
Speaker 1: to take positions, then find vehicles that allow you to
Speaker 1: give your opinion. But if you're gonna call yourself a journalist,
Speaker 1: then you have to adhere to the UH principles that
Speaker 1: make good journalists, and that is to you know, give
Speaker 1: people good information, so that again, as Jim Lara said,
Speaker 1: so that they can make good decisions about themselves. You
Speaker 1: are not everybody, and you're communicating with a wide range
Speaker 1: of people, and I think you have to appreciate that
Speaker 1: as you go forward. I think that you don't want
Speaker 1: to if you tell the truth or be fair and balanced.
Speaker 1: I mean today you may show off some people, but
Speaker 1: I think that you can't allow that to to to
Speaker 1: inhibit trying to do the best you can with what
Speaker 1: you have. I think that was Joe Lewis was doing
Speaker 1: the best you can with what you have, to give
Speaker 1: them good information so that they can do the best
Speaker 1: they can with what they have. And I think that
Speaker 1: we have to communicate with these young people, which I
Speaker 1: try to do every single day that I'm approached by
Speaker 1: one or another, and I'm I'm happy to have time
Speaker 1: to sit with them and talk about our profession and
Speaker 1: how we keep it true to its mission and calling.
Speaker 1: I think it's been very tough in the age of
Speaker 1: social media. I see people trying to be fair and
Speaker 1: balanced and they're eviscerated by the left or they're eviscerated
Speaker 1: by the right because they're not reflecting the views of
Speaker 1: that particular segment of the population, and it is it is.
Speaker 1: I think that's why news and many outlets has become
Speaker 1: so bifurcated. You know, they they are are basically getting
Speaker 1: affirmation instead of information. As a friend of mine, set
Speaker 1: viewers are good, and so I think it's extremely hard
Speaker 1: to be an old fashioned, if you will, journalist who's
Speaker 1: trying to delve into a topic in a way that
Speaker 1: even gives somebody who is on the other side a platform.
Speaker 1: And also, by the way, there's so many extremists out there.
Speaker 1: You do wonder if you know who you should be
Speaker 1: giving a platform too, Should you be interviewing election deniers
Speaker 1: who say, you know, again and again, despite everything to
Speaker 1: the contrary, that the election was rigged. You know, it's
Speaker 1: it's it's hard to be an objective journalist, especially in
Speaker 1: today's you know, today's world, you know, speaking of the
Speaker 1: younger generation. I mean, I'm eighty, but I like to
Speaker 1: think I'm woke, yeah, and and so I just like
Speaker 1: to communicate with them and and and help create armor
Speaker 1: for them too, challenge, uh, when challenges is necessary and important.
Speaker 1: And to be sure, they're gonna be people whose minds
Speaker 1: you will never change. But that's not our job. Our job,
Speaker 1: and and the other problem I'm though. The other problem
Speaker 1: I'm having with a lot of the UH newspapers especially
Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna name anyone, UH. The articles are
Speaker 1: just when they are up against social media, some of
Speaker 1: them and I won't say which ones unless you press me,
Speaker 1: but but some of them have gone in the opposite direction.
Speaker 1: Even I get exhausted and and often don't finish some
Speaker 1: of these articles today in respected, respectable papers. But the
Speaker 1: articles go on and on and on, And I don't
Speaker 1: know what's caused that, because I'm not sure that's the
Speaker 1: best way to combat or go up against Twitter by
Speaker 1: writing five thousand word pieces that could have been seven
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty words. Now, when I sit down to
Speaker 1: write an article today or somebody, I tend to go
Speaker 1: a little bit over. But then I've fortunately had good
Speaker 1: editors who said, well, now what about this? Do we
Speaker 1: really need this paragraph? Or can we sum this up
Speaker 1: this way? So you know, we hope for good editors
Speaker 1: who can who can help us. But I don't know
Speaker 1: what has caused this retreat from the seven hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty word piece that tells you in the opening what
Speaker 1: it's about, tells you in the second paragraph what you're
Speaker 1: gonna talk about in the piece, and then another five
Speaker 1: or six hundred words that gives you all you need
Speaker 1: to be in especially well informed. That's just me. But
Speaker 1: um as I said, you know, given my years of
Speaker 1: experience as a journalist with very good editors, I just
Speaker 1: don't understand that trend. And that's interesting because yes, it
Speaker 1: seems to be working against you know, the prevailing winds
Speaker 1: and people with short attention spans. On the other hand,
Speaker 1: you know, you don't want to you do want to
Speaker 1: have deep, highly research reporting to right, but you just
Speaker 1: don't know who if it's reaching. But you can do
Speaker 1: that in fifty words or fifteen hundred. But but you know,
Speaker 1: and the other thing is that when I worked with
Speaker 1: the New York Times, you had to tell if you're
Speaker 1: doing a newspiece, you had to tell in the first
Speaker 1: paragraph what the story was about, and in the second
Speaker 1: paragraph you had to expand on that, and then for
Speaker 1: another you know, five words open up more of that story.
Speaker 1: And there were also times when you did longer pieces
Speaker 1: for the magazine or or so forth. But the competition
Speaker 1: is social media, and so somehow those among us who
Speaker 1: are concerned about informing people in a good way. I
Speaker 1: think I need to figure out the best way to
Speaker 1: compete with social media. The media landscape has changed so much.
Speaker 1: I'm sixty five, you're eighty, and when we started out
Speaker 1: it was a very different ball of wax. And now, Um,
Speaker 1: as you said, social media is is dominant in some ways,
Speaker 1: and people are are creating their own echo chambers and
Speaker 1: and they're getting them, you know, through through their own
Speaker 1: sort of developing their own quote unquote communities, etcetera, etcetera.
Speaker 1: Would you would you recommend going into journalism today And
Speaker 1: do you think you would have been as attracted to
Speaker 1: the profession today as you were those years ago when
Speaker 1: you were reading Brenda Star and telling your mom, Gosh,
Speaker 1: this is what I want to do. Mom. That's a
Speaker 1: tough question, um, because I don't know, Uh, it would
Speaker 1: have depended, I guess on my experience. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: back in those days, I saw the need, uh too
Speaker 1: fulfill a gap in news coverage, a gap about our people,
Speaker 1: or or a gap that had not positive stories but
Speaker 1: necessarily but accurate stories about people of color. And and
Speaker 1: so I'm not sure, going back over my history if
Speaker 1: that is something I would still like to do. But
Speaker 1: I guess the best answer I can give you is
Speaker 1: I don't see anything else I would want to do,
Speaker 1: and is it something you would You know, when young
Speaker 1: people say ms Hunter Galt, I want to be a journalist,
Speaker 1: what do you think? What do you say to them?
Speaker 1: I say, great, that's really good. How are you getting prepared?
Speaker 1: That's that's what I say. And you know, when I
Speaker 1: was promoting this book before I had a publisher, I
Speaker 1: spoke with the head of a journalism UH college and
Speaker 1: he said, look, if what you have shown in this
Speaker 1: UH in this interview is what is going into that book,
Speaker 1: I hope that every journalism college in this country will
Speaker 1: use it for UH to teach their students. Now I'm
Speaker 1: not self promoting. Well, I guess that's what that amount
Speaker 1: of student, but I didn't say it. I'm quoting. I'm
Speaker 1: quoting an editor. And then later I spoke to someone
Speaker 1: I won't say at which university, but he said, we
Speaker 1: are going to welcome this book for our young journalists.
Speaker 1: So there are people out there still in in in
Speaker 1: journalism colleges at the University of Georgia. I know they're
Speaker 1: doing that at other colleges like the one I just mentioned,
Speaker 1: but didn't mention which college it was. So I think
Speaker 1: that there are leaders in the profession who people who
Speaker 1: have been in the profession or who or people who
Speaker 1: have studied the profession and have some historical sense of
Speaker 1: the role of journalists and journalism, and they are teaching
Speaker 1: young people. I met a young woman here on the
Speaker 1: vineyard the other day when I was doing an interview
Speaker 1: at the local television station. She's what about I think
Speaker 1: she told me she was twenty four, but she is.
Speaker 1: She said, I'm following in your footsteps. And I cried.
Speaker 1: I mean I didn't cry, but I had tears in
Speaker 1: my eyes, which you know, amounted to almost crying. I
Speaker 1: was so proud of that. And one day I'm going
Speaker 1: to call her up because she's about to go to
Speaker 1: Korea where she wants to do some more work, and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna just sit with her and I'm gonna ask her,
Speaker 1: tell me, what what was it about me that impressed you?
Speaker 1: And do you see your attitudes about journalism among other
Speaker 1: young people your age? And I think they're out there,
Speaker 1: they really are. It's just that in so many instances,
Speaker 1: they're finding fewer and fewer places to be good journalists.
Speaker 1: That's why I was thinking that maybe, you know, we
Speaker 1: need to create some new new outlets that that somehow
Speaker 1: bridge these divides. We need to have a more robust
Speaker 1: presence in quote unquote flyover States. We need to you know,
Speaker 1: bridge some of these divides and give people a place
Speaker 1: too to tell their stories. And I think trust can
Speaker 1: be one back. But you know, right now, it's it's
Speaker 1: a it's a big challenge, isn't it. It is it is,
Speaker 1: But but we've always had challenges and we have overcome.
Speaker 1: And so I live in the zone of hope and
Speaker 1: never never giving up. And if you look back at
Speaker 1: our history, we've had some major challenges all throughout our
Speaker 1: history and we have overcome. And so I think that's
Speaker 1: why it's important to be sure that our history is
Speaker 1: taught accurately, because it's in that history that you find
Speaker 1: the the encouragement to keep on keeping on, as they
Speaker 1: used to say, and I still say, I still say
Speaker 1: it to all right, listen, I still say keep on trucking.
Speaker 1: So but um, you know, I like, I like what
Speaker 1: you said. I live in the zone of hope, and
Speaker 1: I'm going to think about that every time I get
Speaker 1: disheartened and depressed and feel that this country is just
Speaker 1: sort of sliding into despair and and and is that
Speaker 1: a point of no return. I'm going to remember what
Speaker 1: you said, Charlene. I live in the zone of hope.
Speaker 1: Thank you. And you can take me to dinner one
Speaker 1: night and I can give you some more of that. Okay,
Speaker 1: I would love that. Well, when you're in New York City,
Speaker 1: please let me know. Your book is called My People.
Speaker 1: It's a compilation of all the incredibly important stories you've
Speaker 1: done through the years, a tremendous body of work that
Speaker 1: I think is an excellent blueprint for journalists today and
Speaker 1: for future journalists who want to go into our profession. Charlene,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for talking to us today. Look,
Speaker 1: thank you. You've inspired me to keep on keeping on great.
Speaker 1: Right back at you. Next Question with Katie Kurik is
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Media and Katie Couric Media.
Speaker 1: The executive producers Army Katie Couric and Courtney Litz. The
Speaker 1: supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements and
Speaker 1: Adriana Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by Derrek Clements.
Speaker 1: For more information about today's episode, or to sign up
Speaker 1: for my morning newsletter, Wake Up Paul, go to Katie
Speaker 1: correct dot com. You can also find me at Katie
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