WEBVTT - Groundbreaking journalist Charlayne Hunter-Gault on chronicling — and making — history 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.000 Hi, everyone, I'm Katie Kurig, and this is next question. 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:08.920 Charlene Hunter Galt has spent nearly sixty years chronicling history 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:12.320 as a journalist, but when she was just nineteen, she 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:17.840 played a central role in making it. On January nine, nine, 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:22.520 she and her classmate Hamiltons Holmes bravely walked onto the 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:26.680 University of Georgia campus, becoming the first two black students 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:30.600 to integrate the school. Her career took her to some 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:34.680 of the most respected media outlets in the country, including 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:38.080 The New Yorker, The New York Times, and the PBS 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:41.280 News Hour, But as one of the few black journalists 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:45.080 reporting for a largely white audience, she knew she had 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:48.760 to do more. So she made it her mission to cover, 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:52.280 in her words, black people in ways they were rarely 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:57.480 portrayed in the media, in their full humanity. Her new book, 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:01.440 My People, Five Decades of Right being about Black lives, 0:01:02.080 --> 0:01:06.240 is a collection of many of her writings. Here's our conversation. 0:01:09.080 --> 0:01:12.720 It's a huge honor to have you, Charlene, and I'm 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:16.600 excited to talk to you about this book because when 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:20.360 I think about your reporting through the years, I think 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:25.280 how your work really so well reflects where we are 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:29.959 as a country and how we've evolved or we haven't 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:35.000 evolved through the decades. And I'm curious why you thought 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:40.160 it would be helpful to put this collection of your 0:01:40.240 --> 0:01:45.679 reporting of over the last five decades together. Now, well, 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:49.560 it's been a little bit of time putting it together, 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:53.000 but we've had some challenges for a little bit of time. 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:57.720 And one of the things I noticed is that while 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:03.440 it seems as if we are getting more representation by 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:07.560 people of color on the air, um, we still have 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:11.440 a bit of a ways to go to get good 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:17.400 equal representation of all people, especially people of color. And 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:22.800 I also think that as we have some today some 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:28.760 opposition to teaching black history, I think that I'm hoping 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:33.840 that this book will help people who are in that 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:41.280 arena to appreciate that black history can be positive. And 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:45.920 part of the problem is that over the years, we 0:02:46.040 --> 0:02:50.800 haven't had enough good quote unquote coverage of people of 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:56.360 color for people to understand why it's important to have 0:02:56.800 --> 0:03:01.560 good representation of people of color in the media. And 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:05.119 I'm just hoping because I'm willing to talk to anybody 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:11.040 about this, and so I'm hoping that this book will 0:03:11.240 --> 0:03:16.400 in fact help people who are having issues with black 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:23.480 history to stop stop having issues. But it's it's been 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:27.960 so weaponized, hasn't it, And I think people don't even 0:03:28.480 --> 0:03:32.000 necessarily it's sort of I always say, people have opinions 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:37.760 without portfolio. They don't even understand the nuances and the 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:43.800 complexities of the topic about which they're speaking or opining. 0:03:44.520 --> 0:03:49.600 And I hope that people who may be in that category, 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:55.960 who have misrepresented critical race theory or think that talking 0:03:55.960 --> 0:03:59.240 to black about black history is designed to make white 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:06.000 people feel guilt, shame and bad about themselves, that that 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:11.760 they are able to be open to a sensible conversation 0:04:11.920 --> 0:04:16.480 about what we're really talking about. You know, I'm happy 0:04:16.520 --> 0:04:20.400 to have that conversation. And also I want to say, 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.479 as I've been saying, that we have to be very 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:30.120 careful about generalizations because from the beginning of time, our 0:04:30.160 --> 0:04:34.160 time here in America, we've had white people involved in 0:04:34.320 --> 0:04:38.240 our struggle, that is the struggle of black people for 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:44.680 equal opportunity, and some have died for us. And again, 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:49.080 I hope to make that clear as I talk to people, 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:52.400 as I go around the country with the book, I 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:56.640 want to talk to people who may not see things 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:00.240 through the same lens as I do. But I'm willing 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:04.680 to talk to them, and I'm willing to I'm hoping 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:07.799 that they want to talk to me because I think 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:10.719 that we can get somewhere. I really do not. Maybe 0:05:10.760 --> 0:05:14.800 that's the p K that is the preacher's kid in me, 0:05:15.560 --> 0:05:21.200 but um I I still feel that we can make 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:25.640 a difference if we share our stories and if we 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:28.719 are willing to talk to people who don't necessarily agree 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:32.800 with us. I haven't had too much of that, but 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:35.039 I don't know if you remember, but when I was 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:39.080 in South Africa covering apartheid, one of the things that 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:43.000 was important to me was to talk to the people 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:47.320 who was who were a part of the apartheid system, 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:52.040 so we could get into their heads and maybe they 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:56.120 could get into well, not necessarily my head, because I 0:05:56.240 --> 0:06:01.160 wasn't giving my opinion, but I was asking questions that 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:06.240 may have indicated what my opinion was. But it worked 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:12.440 out and they were not hostile, and so I really 0:06:12.520 --> 0:06:16.159 do take from that and other experiences that I've had 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.600 with people who don't always see things the same way. 0:06:19.800 --> 0:06:22.880 I'm hoping that this book will help us keep on 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:25.480 that track. Why why do you think we've lost our 0:06:25.480 --> 0:06:29.360 ability to have those conversations, to basically sit with people 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:35.279 from different backgrounds, different sort of circumstances, different lenses, and 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:40.480 actually kind of listen to each other. Because you know, Charlene, 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:44.560 I just don't think that happens anymore. Well, we have 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:51.240 media now that promotes uh difference and and and negatively 0:06:51.440 --> 0:06:54.320 when it comes to the people I've written about, and 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:59.000 also black history. I'm not sure how that came about, 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:02.480 but I have a thought now that you've asked that question. 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:06.040 You're so brilliant with your questions all. You're so nice, Charlene. 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:10.080 I just, Charlene, I'm just asking what you know. I mean, 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:13.280 it's it's it's what I what pops into my head, 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:16.120 and you know, trying to trying to come up with 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:19.840 solutions for some of this stuff. Well, you know, one 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:22.320 of the things I've done on the news hour PPS 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:27.360 News Hour is do a series on conversations about race 0:07:27.560 --> 0:07:31.920 and people who have come up with solutions and they 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:37.680 are out there, and I just think that, you know what, 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:42.080 there was a time when we had three channels, and 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:45.480 sometimes I wish we could go back to that. I know, 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:49.120 I know, but you know I was on this um 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:54.480 Disinformation Commission with Rashad Robinson and a Color of Change. 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:58.160 And you know, whenever I would would be nostalgic about 0:07:58.160 --> 0:08:02.119 the good old days, he say, you know, Katie, those 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:06.720 days had very few opportunities for for people of color, 0:08:06.760 --> 0:08:11.280 you know, And so um, I I feel the same way, 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.920 because it felt like it could be controlled in terms 0:08:14.960 --> 0:08:18.360 of the editorial veracity and the content of things, but 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:23.400 in terms of opportunities. Um that that they weren't necessarily 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:26.880 the good old days. Well, I think that far too 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:30.960 many people today are getting their information from Twitter, right, 0:08:31.320 --> 0:08:37.640 and and and other vehicles that require minimum wordage and 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.160 not a lot of thought. I mean, I went on 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:46.520 Twitter this morning and well it was not what I 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:51.959 hope it could be. But I talked to a very educated, 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:55.120 intelligent woman the other day and she was complaining about 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:58.199 something going on in the country, and I said, well, what, 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:01.000 what what do you want? Who do you watch on television? 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:04.520 I don't watch television anymore. And I think a lot 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.760 of people have just gotten turned off, but we can't. 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:10.920 You know. It comes out of civil rights movement that 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:15.600 I grew up with. And I'm just I tell people 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:19.480 I don't feel no ways tired. That's a phrase from 0:09:19.520 --> 0:09:22.640 from the civil rights movement. But we've got to figure 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:26.760 out better ways of communicating with people, because, as you know, 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:32.040 a lot of our local newspapers are dying, even our 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:38.000 black newspapers are dying. And that's inexcusable because in spite 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:42.400 of the economic situation that has gone on for a 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:48.160 number of years, there are people with money, and people 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:53.040 with money who could have influence with that money if 0:09:53.080 --> 0:09:56.760 they used it to those ends. So, you know, I 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:59.360 think maybe some of my wealthy friends are going to 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:03.160 be upset about that, but I think that's the way 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:06.640 to go. We've we've got to figure out how to 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:11.880 communicate in a in a positive way, even with people 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:14.120 who don't agree with us. And I just think if 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:18.840 we could sit down with them in quiet spaces and talk, 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:21.920 I think it could make a difference. I would like 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:24.559 to share some of my stories with people who are 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:28.640 now saying they don't want this history taught in schools. 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:31.360 I would like to go there and and talk to 0:10:31.440 --> 0:10:35.880 some of those people. I mean, our information has been 0:10:36.000 --> 0:10:41.160 so deleted from everything. I mean. I was at a 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:47.160 school in Sarasota, Florida, predominantly black, and a predominantly black 0:10:47.240 --> 0:10:53.760 professor had invited me, and I had mentioned, uh, the 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:58.400 Brown decision, the Brown Versus Board of Education decision which 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:04.079 outlawed sept but equal in schools, And on the way 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:09.120 out to the car, this lovely young black woman teacher 0:11:09.520 --> 0:11:12.960 walking with me, and she said, can I make a confession? 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:15.560 I said, of course, And I thought she's gonna tell 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:21.679 me something. Really, you know, sexy, she said, I myself 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:26.200 black woman who grew up in Mississippi, and she must 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.280 have been in her late thirties early forties. She had 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:36.040 never heard of the Brown decision. Now that's inexcusable. Come on, wow, yeah, 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:41.280 it's it's really It says something about our education system 0:11:41.320 --> 0:11:45.320 and how it needs to be fixed as well. Absolutely, 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:47.520 I could not agree with you more. But when it 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:50.160 comes to the media, I was just while you were talking, 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.480 pulling up something on my phone which I saw earlier 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:57.480 this morning that said Americans distrust in the media. Is 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.640 that a record high? As for the first time ever, 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.920 the percentage of Americans with no trust at all in 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:07.560 the media is higher than the percentage of those with 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:11.080 a great deal or fair amount combined. According to a 0:12:11.160 --> 0:12:14.839 recent Gallop, Pole did that make you cry. Oh, it 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:18.559 just broke my heart. But I know I'm not surprised. 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:22.080 And I think, as you know, News Hour is one 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:26.760 of the last uh you know, news programs. I mean, 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:29.600 I guess the evening news, but those are so short 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:33.600 twenty two minutes. But where they're sort of haven't been 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:37.320 co opted by the left of the right, right right, 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:41.400 and uh and they're doing a good job, and they've 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:46.400 even become more diverse. Um and and you know, they've 0:12:46.440 --> 0:12:50.600 always been committed to what Jim Lera used to say, 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:55.160 you know, give people good information and they'll do the 0:12:55.280 --> 0:13:00.400 right thing. Yeah, but we're challenged today about how to 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:04.160 get that good information to people because not everybody like 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:08.960 you is tuning into the News Hour right when we 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:14.319 come back, Charlene recalls her first harrowing few days at 0:13:14.360 --> 0:13:24.840 the University of Georgia. Well, let's talk a little bit 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:29.119 about your career for people who are not as familiar 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:32.960 with your extraordinary body of work. I know that you 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:36.800 love Brenda Star as a girl, and so did I. 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:41.040 I loved Brenda Star. I used to and and I 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:44.400 I used to love her clothes I don't know, almost 0:13:44.400 --> 0:13:47.760 a little girl. And but that you know. Did you know, 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:53.880 because I think it only became a known recently that 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:58.439 the person who created Brenda Star was a woman. I didn't, 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:01.880 but it was. It was it was during those years 0:14:02.000 --> 0:14:06.839 when there was degregation of you know that affective women 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:09.880 as well as people of color, and so she went. 0:14:10.160 --> 0:14:13.440 I think it was by a pseudonym, but she sure 0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:18.640 did create. And you know, once I here's what was 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:22.400 so wonderful about that when I told my mother in 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:26.560 a segregated town and society that I wanted to be 0:14:26.600 --> 0:14:29.120 like Brenda Star. She didn't said, oh no, that's not 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.320 what a little black girl could do in this time. 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:36.440 She said, very casually, okay, if that's what you want 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:40.560 to do. And that inspired me. And then I let 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:43.760 your mom, by the way, yes lord. And then I 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:48.360 went to an all black school that was, you know, 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:53.360 didn't have the same things that the white schools had, 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:57.560 but they had our history. And that's when Ida B. 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:02.880 Wells became my second role model, because Ida B. Wells 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:06.200 was a black journalist back in the days of segregation, 0:15:06.800 --> 0:15:11.440 and yet she she worked as a journalist and she 0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:16.600 worked as an activist trying to bring about the promise 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:21.720 of our constitution and democracy So I had a black 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:25.080 woman and a white woman who were my inspirations, and 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:27.960 I'm very proud of that and grateful for it. I 0:15:28.000 --> 0:15:31.400 wonder why there has never been a biopic of Ida B. Wells. 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:35.000 I don't know. You know, that's something that we can do. 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:37.840 We want to help me out. Sure, Sure, let's get 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:42.720 as an actor and a director in California. He's always 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:45.920 looking for stones. I'll ask him and say, this is 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:50.600 this is territory that needs to be covered and tackled. Well, 0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.360 your mom encouraged you, and then of course she were 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:57.280 one of the first two students to integrate the University 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:01.680 of Georgia, and you've volunteered to be that person. Is 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:06.080 that something your mom encouraged you do to do as well? Charlene, 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:11.280 My mom supported it, but I was encouraged to do 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:15.160 it by some very progressive black men in Atlanta. M. 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:18.480 Carl Holman was one, you may know that name, and 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:21.280 there were it was a group of activists black men, 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:24.640 one of the doctor and I forget the others right now, 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:30.400 but they were all very progressive people and they felt 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:34.520 that in Georgia. I think it was maybe nineteen fifty 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:38.160 nine and the brown decision was five or six years 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:42.080 earlier that it was time for Georgia to step up. 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:44.160 So they came to my high school and asked the 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:47.640 principal for two top students. And Hamilton and I were 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:52.360 good friends, but we were also competitors. And so when they, 0:16:52.680 --> 0:16:55.120 you know, the principal set set for us because we 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.000 were first and second in our class, and we said, 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:01.960 of course, And so they took us down to Georgia State. Well, 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:06.480 here's how our history created armor for us, armor in 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:11.760 our minds, hearts, brains, everything. Because Hamilton's was I have 0:17:11.880 --> 0:17:14.840 to admit looked at the curriculum. I had looked at 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:17.199 it too, but he was the first to speak, and 0:17:17.240 --> 0:17:19.719 he said, this doesn't have what's gonna prepare me for 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:21.560 what I wanna do. I want to be a doctor, 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:24.760 and I don't like this curriculum. And then I said, yeah, 0:17:24.760 --> 0:17:28.120 me too, and then he went on. He stepped out 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.560 on the deck of the school and looked north and 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:33.800 pointed and said, I want to go there. Well, that 0:17:33.880 --> 0:17:37.280 was you g A and Athens, Georgia, and it was um. 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:42.119 The reason the men sort of hesitated was because they 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:44.560 didn't know anybody in Athens and the way down there 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:49.480 was through places where ku Klux klaners had headquarters and things. 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:52.360 But in the end they figured out how to protect us, 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:55.840 and that's how we got there. Three days after you 0:17:56.040 --> 0:18:00.399 arrived on campus, students rioted outside your dorm room, and 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:02.520 in fact, one of them even threw a brick through 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:07.479 your window. What do you remember about that night? I 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:13.040 remember being surprised, being a black Southern girl brought up 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:16.200 in the A. M. E. Church. I was first upset 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:21.240 because the brick caused the rocks caused the glass out 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:23.760 of my window to get all over my good clothes, 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:28.320 which I hadn't had time to unpack. And then the 0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:31.960 house mother came and said, you know, the Dean is 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:35.240 on the way here to suspend you for your own safety. 0:18:35.960 --> 0:18:41.480 And the tear gas that ostensibly had broken up the 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:46.280 riots outside was still looming in the air. And so 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:50.520 the next day when I got back to Atlanta, taken 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:54.439 by the state patrol, Hamilton and I um, I was 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:59.440 asked by a reporter how scared was that. I said, scared, 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:03.800 wasn't scared and I hadn't focused on it, but I wasn't, 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:06.919 And so they said why not? And that's where the 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:09.880 p K and me comes out because my mom used 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:12.119 to send my dear mother used to send me to 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.680 my father's parents, who were a preacher. And I said, 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.680 my grandmother was the saint and she used to teach 0:19:18.680 --> 0:19:21.800 me Bible verses every day. I didn't want to learn 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:24.439 them because I wanted to climb the mango trees and 0:19:24.560 --> 0:19:29.600 run around and be a tom girl. But um uh, 0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:33.560 the verse that clearly was in my head. And I've 0:19:33.560 --> 0:19:37.560 looked at pictures of myself and I said, yes, that's 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:39.720 what I was thinking. Yeah, though I walked through the 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:43.040 valley of the Shadow of Death, I will fear no evil. 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:46.520 That rod and that staff they comfort me all the 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:50.080 days of my life. That was what was going on 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:52.639 in my head. And I didn't even you know, it 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:55.840 was so much a part of my psyche that I 0:19:56.280 --> 0:19:59.560 didn't even realize it. But I wasn't afraid. And you know, 0:19:59.680 --> 0:20:01.399 you look at some of the pictures that I have 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:08.000 my mouth on a Virgin Mary statue. You know, I 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:10.919 have a lot of identities, and one of them is 0:20:11.240 --> 0:20:14.680 a p K, a preacher's kid who was taught all 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:17.400 those things. And I still I did a book talk 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:19.879 the other day with the Reverend Otis Moss, the third 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:23.880 out of the Trinity United Church in Chicago, and we went. 0:20:24.080 --> 0:20:27.359 Now he's a lot younger than me and and a 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:32.360 brilliant minister, and we talked about the role of religion 0:20:32.680 --> 0:20:36.479 and and I think that while not everybody is into, 0:20:37.160 --> 0:20:39.919 you know, religion, I think there are lessons that we 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:43.360 can all learn from and share and be protected by. 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:47.560 I talked about our history as a suit of armor, 0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:52.960 and part of my armor was created by my sainted grandmother. 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:56.960 And I think that, you know, not everybody's going to 0:20:57.040 --> 0:21:00.720 be religious and go to church and all that, but 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:04.080 I think their lessons for even people who don't believe 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:08.840 in church and whatever else it's associated with, well, clearly 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:11.840 it gave you an enormous amount of strength. And I 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:16.159 think in faith and and religion also you can find 0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:21.359 a life philosophy right that that obviously guided you through 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:27.760 the years and became you know, incredibly important, gave you 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:31.920 a foundation to face the many travails that that you've 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:36.000 faced in your life. Even religion today is divided, and 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:42.359 I've listened to some people on television, uh using religion 0:21:43.200 --> 0:21:46.240 and what I find is a very offensive way. Well 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:49.440 it's kind of been ever thus the right, Charlaine, I mean, 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:55.399 you know, you know, distorting and twisting religion, and you know, 0:21:55.800 --> 0:21:59.879 causing all kinds of strife and wars, and you know, 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:02.639 I mean, but the only way we can get past 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:04.440 that is to do what you and I are doing 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:08.240 right now and what you have done all of your career, 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:12.720 which is to try as best you and I can 0:22:13.720 --> 0:22:16.840 to tell the truth. And and sometimes we make mistakes. 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:23.200 That's why in newspapers they have correction correction things, because 0:22:23.200 --> 0:22:26.760 we're we're human, and we do make stakes. But for 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:29.320 the most part, I think we try to do our 0:22:29.400 --> 0:22:33.560 jobs and not make mistakes. And and and double checked 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:37.720 and triple checked our sources. You were hired by the 0:22:37.880 --> 0:22:42.720 legendary editor of The New Yorker, William Sean after you graduated, 0:22:43.160 --> 0:22:46.560 and you became the magazine's first black staff writer. You've 0:22:46.560 --> 0:22:49.679 said that you were committed to writing about black people 0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:53.399 in ways that really they were rarely portrayed in the 0:22:53.480 --> 0:22:57.479 media in their full humanity. Right. You know, It's just 0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:00.080 so strange to me that we think this was not 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:05.320 that long ago, Charlene, and and and and yet and 0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:11.119 yet people were not writing about black Americans. This way, 0:23:11.160 --> 0:23:15.200 and and and where did that idea come from? Well, 0:23:15.440 --> 0:23:18.560 you know, I may not have thought about it quite 0:23:18.560 --> 0:23:23.200 that way, but uh I did. And and the New Yorker, 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:27.119 of course published some of the greatest writers of all time. 0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:29.959 I mean one of the heroes was J. D. Salinger. 0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:34.840 Uh and those, of course. But you know, you always 0:23:34.880 --> 0:23:38.760 look for openings where you can make a difference. And 0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:43.040 when I looked down at the very talented, wonderful writers 0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:46.040 like Calvin Trillon and Jared Jonas and so many others, 0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:51.600 I could mention Mary McCarthy and all of those. Uh, 0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:59.040 No one was really going into Harlem and spending time 0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:02.640 with people. And I think the only way you can. 0:24:02.880 --> 0:24:05.160 I mean, you can go and cover a quick one 0:24:05.240 --> 0:24:08.600 day story and and do the who, what, when, where 0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:12.520 and how. But it's another thing to go in depth 0:24:13.200 --> 0:24:16.520 and present people. And you have to do those quickie stories. 0:24:17.119 --> 0:24:21.600 But nobody at as I can remember, we're really doing 0:24:22.720 --> 0:24:26.280 any in debt and they didn't have to be long 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:29.919 to be in depth. But nobody was looking at black 0:24:29.960 --> 0:24:34.439 people the way I experienced in my daily life because 0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:39.280 I worked with among them and so and also I 0:24:39.359 --> 0:24:44.159 wanted scoops, right, But that wasn't the main reason. It 0:24:44.200 --> 0:24:47.439 turns out I was getting scoops. But you know, to 0:24:47.520 --> 0:24:50.240 go to somebody, to to to talk to somebody like 0:24:50.720 --> 0:24:55.280 Lewis Michel, a tiny little black man who had a bookstore, 0:24:55.920 --> 0:24:59.000 uh close to a hundred and twenty fifth Street and 0:24:59.000 --> 0:25:04.480 and and Lynux Not wasn't Linux Street and seven and 0:25:04.480 --> 0:25:07.879 and he was just a delight and he would entertain 0:25:08.400 --> 0:25:12.840 He was entertaining prominent black writers and even white writers 0:25:12.880 --> 0:25:15.040 who were coming there because he had one of the 0:25:15.160 --> 0:25:20.919 largest collections by and about black people, probably well, certainly 0:25:20.960 --> 0:25:23.880 in New York, but maybe even in the country at 0:25:23.960 --> 0:25:27.600 that time. And he was just delightful. He's spoken couplets. 0:25:28.119 --> 0:25:31.920 And he was raised conscious too because in a very 0:25:32.040 --> 0:25:35.879 uh what shall I say, aggressive way, he used to 0:25:35.920 --> 0:25:38.480 say he's spoken couplets. And he used to say things 0:25:38.520 --> 0:25:42.520 like the white man's dream of being supreme has turned 0:25:42.560 --> 0:25:47.719 to sour cream. But you know it was it was, 0:25:48.240 --> 0:25:50.639 you know, one way. You know we talked earlier about 0:25:50.680 --> 0:25:53.840 how you can communicate with people and get them to 0:25:54.480 --> 0:25:58.119 understand and accept what you're talking about, well, poetry, it 0:25:58.200 --> 0:26:00.720 is one way. All the Oh, I don't know how 0:26:00.720 --> 0:26:04.199 many white people would have liked that that couplet, but 0:26:04.240 --> 0:26:07.960 he had other couplets. And he also had this collection 0:26:08.040 --> 0:26:12.160 of books that white writers who were interested in looking 0:26:12.960 --> 0:26:16.040 at the black experience in black history would come there 0:26:16.480 --> 0:26:19.840 and studied them. So we've had people who white people, 0:26:19.920 --> 0:26:23.359 black people, Asian people, all kinds of people who have 0:26:23.520 --> 0:26:26.760 been interested. Is just that it's been difficult. It was 0:26:26.880 --> 0:26:30.760 difficult up to a point to get those stories published. 0:26:31.119 --> 0:26:33.520 You later set up a Harlem bureau for the New 0:26:33.600 --> 0:26:39.760 York Times, and and did you face much resistance doing that? No, 0:26:40.240 --> 0:26:42.960 I mean, the only it was I wouldn't call it 0:26:43.040 --> 0:26:47.959 resistance because Arthur Gelb was a wonderful city editor at 0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:50.920 the Metropolitan editor at the New York Times, and he 0:26:51.000 --> 0:26:53.520 was the one that was several black reporters already at 0:26:53.520 --> 0:26:57.560 the Times, and they had recommended to him that he 0:26:57.640 --> 0:26:59.800 talked to me because I was coming to New York. 0:26:59.840 --> 0:27:05.960 I had journalistic experience with NBC and stuff, and so uh, 0:27:06.200 --> 0:27:09.720 he saw me, and one of the questions he asked, 0:27:09.720 --> 0:27:12.439 he said, okay, now, if you if I sent you 0:27:12.520 --> 0:27:17.920 to Harlem to cover a story about a black person man, 0:27:18.040 --> 0:27:21.119 I think he said, who had done something bad or 0:27:21.160 --> 0:27:24.719 who was in trouble. Would you be able to tell 0:27:24.760 --> 0:27:30.160 that story? And I said, I don't know. It would 0:27:30.160 --> 0:27:34.239 depend on what I found when I reported, because so 0:27:34.320 --> 0:27:38.800