1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, I'm Katie Kurig, and this is next question. 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: Charlene Hunter Galt has spent nearly sixty years chronicling history 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: as a journalist, but when she was just nineteen, she 4 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: played a central role in making it. On January nine, nine, 5 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: she and her classmate Hamiltons Holmes bravely walked onto the 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: University of Georgia campus, becoming the first two black students 7 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: to integrate the school. Her career took her to some 8 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: of the most respected media outlets in the country, including 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: The New Yorker, The New York Times, and the PBS 10 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:41,280 Speaker 1: News Hour, But as one of the few black journalists 11 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: reporting for a largely white audience, she knew she had 12 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 1: to do more. So she made it her mission to cover, 13 00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:52,280 Speaker 1: in her words, black people in ways they were rarely 14 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: portrayed in the media, in their full humanity. Her new book, 15 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: My People, Five Decades of Right being about Black lives, 16 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: is a collection of many of her writings. Here's our conversation. 17 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: It's a huge honor to have you, Charlene, and I'm 18 00:01:12,760 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: excited to talk to you about this book because when 19 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: I think about your reporting through the years, I think 20 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 1: how your work really so well reflects where we are 21 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: as a country and how we've evolved or we haven't 22 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: evolved through the decades. And I'm curious why you thought 23 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: it would be helpful to put this collection of your 24 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: reporting of over the last five decades together. Now, well, 25 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:49,560 Speaker 1: it's been a little bit of time putting it together, 26 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: but we've had some challenges for a little bit of time. 27 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: And one of the things I noticed is that while 28 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: it seems as if we are getting more representation by 29 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: people of color on the air, um, we still have 30 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: a bit of a ways to go to get good 31 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: equal representation of all people, especially people of color. And 32 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 1: I also think that as we have some today some 33 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 1: opposition to teaching black history, I think that I'm hoping 34 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: that this book will help people who are in that 35 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 1: arena to appreciate that black history can be positive. And 36 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: part of the problem is that over the years, we 37 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: haven't had enough good quote unquote coverage of people of 38 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: color for people to understand why it's important to have 39 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: good representation of people of color in the media. And 40 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,119 Speaker 1: I'm just hoping because I'm willing to talk to anybody 41 00:03:05,160 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: about this, and so I'm hoping that this book will 42 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: in fact help people who are having issues with black 43 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: history to stop stop having issues. But it's it's been 44 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:27,960 Speaker 1: so weaponized, hasn't it, And I think people don't even 45 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: necessarily it's sort of I always say, people have opinions 46 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: without portfolio. They don't even understand the nuances and the 47 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: complexities of the topic about which they're speaking or opining. 48 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:49,600 Speaker 1: And I hope that people who may be in that category, 49 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:55,960 Speaker 1: who have misrepresented critical race theory or think that talking 50 00:03:55,960 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: to black about black history is designed to make white 51 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: people feel guilt, shame and bad about themselves, that that 52 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: they are able to be open to a sensible conversation 53 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:16,480 Speaker 1: about what we're really talking about. You know, I'm happy 54 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: to have that conversation. And also I want to say, 55 00:04:20,520 --> 00:04:23,479 Speaker 1: as I've been saying, that we have to be very 56 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: careful about generalizations because from the beginning of time, our 57 00:04:30,160 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: time here in America, we've had white people involved in 58 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: our struggle, that is the struggle of black people for 59 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: equal opportunity, and some have died for us. And again, 60 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 1: I hope to make that clear as I talk to people, 61 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: as I go around the country with the book, I 62 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: want to talk to people who may not see things 63 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: through the same lens as I do. But I'm willing 64 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: to talk to them, and I'm willing to I'm hoping 65 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:07,799 Speaker 1: that they want to talk to me because I think 66 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: that we can get somewhere. I really do not. Maybe 67 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 1: that's the p K that is the preacher's kid in me, 68 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: but um I I still feel that we can make 69 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: a difference if we share our stories and if we 70 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 1: are willing to talk to people who don't necessarily agree 71 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: with us. I haven't had too much of that, but 72 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 1: I don't know if you remember, but when I was 73 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: in South Africa covering apartheid, one of the things that 74 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: was important to me was to talk to the people 75 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:47,320 Speaker 1: who was who were a part of the apartheid system, 76 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: so we could get into their heads and maybe they 77 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: could get into well, not necessarily my head, because I 78 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:01,160 Speaker 1: wasn't giving my opinion, but I was asking questions that 79 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: may have indicated what my opinion was. But it worked 80 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: out and they were not hostile, and so I really 81 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:16,159 Speaker 1: do take from that and other experiences that I've had 82 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 1: with people who don't always see things the same way. 83 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: I'm hoping that this book will help us keep on 84 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,480 Speaker 1: that track. Why why do you think we've lost our 85 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: ability to have those conversations, to basically sit with people 86 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 1: from different backgrounds, different sort of circumstances, different lenses, and 87 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: actually kind of listen to each other. Because you know, Charlene, 88 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: I just don't think that happens anymore. Well, we have 89 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: media now that promotes uh difference and and and negatively 90 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: when it comes to the people I've written about, and 91 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: also black history. I'm not sure how that came about, 92 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: but I have a thought now that you've asked that question. 93 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 1: You're so brilliant with your questions all. You're so nice, Charlene. 94 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: I just, Charlene, I'm just asking what you know. I mean, 95 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: it's it's it's what I what pops into my head, 96 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: and you know, trying to trying to come up with 97 00:07:16,240 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: solutions for some of this stuff. Well, you know, one 98 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: of the things I've done on the news hour PPS 99 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: News Hour is do a series on conversations about race 100 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,920 Speaker 1: and people who have come up with solutions and they 101 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: are out there, and I just think that, you know what, 102 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: there was a time when we had three channels, and 103 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: sometimes I wish we could go back to that. I know, 104 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: I know, but you know I was on this um 105 00:07:49,160 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: Disinformation Commission with Rashad Robinson and a Color of Change. 106 00:07:54,520 --> 00:07:58,160 Speaker 1: And you know, whenever I would would be nostalgic about 107 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:02,119 Speaker 1: the good old days, he say, you know, Katie, those 108 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:06,720 Speaker 1: days had very few opportunities for for people of color, 109 00:08:06,760 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: you know, And so um, I I feel the same way, 110 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: because it felt like it could be controlled in terms 111 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: of the editorial veracity and the content of things, but 112 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:23,400 Speaker 1: in terms of opportunities. Um that that they weren't necessarily 113 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: the good old days. Well, I think that far too 114 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: many people today are getting their information from Twitter, right, 115 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: and and and other vehicles that require minimum wordage and 116 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 1: not a lot of thought. I mean, I went on 117 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: Twitter this morning and well it was not what I 118 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:51,959 Speaker 1: hope it could be. But I talked to a very educated, 119 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: intelligent woman the other day and she was complaining about 120 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 1: something going on in the country, and I said, well, what, 121 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: what what do you want? Who do you watch on television? 122 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 1: I don't watch television anymore. And I think a lot 123 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: of people have just gotten turned off, but we can't. 124 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: You know. It comes out of civil rights movement that 125 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: I grew up with. And I'm just I tell people 126 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: I don't feel no ways tired. That's a phrase from 127 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: from the civil rights movement. But we've got to figure 128 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: out better ways of communicating with people, because, as you know, 129 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: a lot of our local newspapers are dying, even our 130 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:38,000 Speaker 1: black newspapers are dying. And that's inexcusable because in spite 131 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: of the economic situation that has gone on for a 132 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 1: number of years, there are people with money, and people 133 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: with money who could have influence with that money if 134 00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: they used it to those ends. So, you know, I 135 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: think maybe some of my wealthy friends are going to 136 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: be upset about that, but I think that's the way 137 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: to go. We've we've got to figure out how to 138 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: communicate in a in a positive way, even with people 139 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: who don't agree with us. And I just think if 140 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:18,840 Speaker 1: we could sit down with them in quiet spaces and talk, 141 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: I think it could make a difference. I would like 142 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,559 Speaker 1: to share some of my stories with people who are 143 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 1: now saying they don't want this history taught in schools. 144 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: I would like to go there and and talk to 145 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: some of those people. I mean, our information has been 146 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: so deleted from everything. I mean. I was at a 147 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: school in Sarasota, Florida, predominantly black, and a predominantly black 148 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: professor had invited me, and I had mentioned, uh, the 149 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 1: Brown decision, the Brown Versus Board of Education decision which 150 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:04,079 Speaker 1: outlawed sept but equal in schools, And on the way 151 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: out to the car, this lovely young black woman teacher 152 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 1: walking with me, and she said, can I make a confession? 153 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 1: I said, of course, And I thought she's gonna tell 154 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: me something. Really, you know, sexy, she said, I myself 155 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: black woman who grew up in Mississippi, and she must 156 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: have been in her late thirties early forties. She had 157 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: never heard of the Brown decision. Now that's inexcusable. Come on, wow, yeah, 158 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: it's it's really It says something about our education system 159 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: and how it needs to be fixed as well. Absolutely, 160 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 1: I could not agree with you more. But when it 161 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: comes to the media, I was just while you were talking, 162 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: pulling up something on my phone which I saw earlier 163 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: this morning that said Americans distrust in the media. Is 164 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: that a record high? As for the first time ever, 165 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: the percentage of Americans with no trust at all in 166 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: the media is higher than the percentage of those with 167 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: a great deal or fair amount combined. According to a 168 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:14,839 Speaker 1: recent Gallop, Pole did that make you cry. Oh, it 169 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: just broke my heart. But I know I'm not surprised. 170 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: And I think, as you know, News Hour is one 171 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:26,760 Speaker 1: of the last uh you know, news programs. I mean, 172 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,600 Speaker 1: I guess the evening news, but those are so short 173 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: twenty two minutes. But where they're sort of haven't been 174 00:12:33,640 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: co opted by the left of the right, right right, 175 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: and uh and they're doing a good job, and they've 176 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: even become more diverse. Um and and you know, they've 177 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: always been committed to what Jim Lera used to say, 178 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: you know, give people good information and they'll do the 179 00:12:55,280 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: right thing. Yeah, but we're challenged today about how to 180 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: get that good information to people because not everybody like 181 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: you is tuning into the News Hour right when we 182 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 1: come back, Charlene recalls her first harrowing few days at 183 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: the University of Georgia. Well, let's talk a little bit 184 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:29,119 Speaker 1: about your career for people who are not as familiar 185 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: with your extraordinary body of work. I know that you 186 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: love Brenda Star as a girl, and so did I. 187 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 1: I loved Brenda Star. I used to and and I 188 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: I used to love her clothes I don't know, almost 189 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: a little girl. And but that you know. Did you know, 190 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: because I think it only became a known recently that 191 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 1: the person who created Brenda Star was a woman. I didn't, 192 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: but it was. It was it was during those years 193 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:06,839 Speaker 1: when there was degregation of you know that affective women 194 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 1: as well as people of color, and so she went. 195 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 1: I think it was by a pseudonym, but she sure 196 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 1: did create. And you know, once I here's what was 197 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: so wonderful about that when I told my mother in 198 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,560 Speaker 1: a segregated town and society that I wanted to be 199 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,120 Speaker 1: like Brenda Star. She didn't said, oh no, that's not 200 00:14:29,200 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: what a little black girl could do in this time. 201 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 1: She said, very casually, okay, if that's what you want 202 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: to do. And that inspired me. And then I let 203 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: your mom, by the way, yes lord. And then I 204 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 1: went to an all black school that was, you know, 205 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 1: didn't have the same things that the white schools had, 206 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: but they had our history. And that's when Ida B. 207 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: Wells became my second role model, because Ida B. Wells 208 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: was a black journalist back in the days of segregation, 209 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: and yet she she worked as a journalist and she 210 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: worked as an activist trying to bring about the promise 211 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: of our constitution and democracy So I had a black 212 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: woman and a white woman who were my inspirations, and 213 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 1: I'm very proud of that and grateful for it. I 214 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: wonder why there has never been a biopic of Ida B. Wells. 215 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: I don't know. You know, that's something that we can do. 216 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: We want to help me out. Sure, Sure, let's get 217 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: as an actor and a director in California. He's always 218 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: looking for stones. I'll ask him and say, this is 219 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: this is territory that needs to be covered and tackled. Well, 220 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: your mom encouraged you, and then of course she were 221 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 1: one of the first two students to integrate the University 222 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:01,680 Speaker 1: of Georgia, and you've volunteered to be that person. Is 223 00:16:01,720 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: that something your mom encouraged you do to do as well? Charlene, 224 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: My mom supported it, but I was encouraged to do 225 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: it by some very progressive black men in Atlanta. M. 226 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: Carl Holman was one, you may know that name, and 227 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: there were it was a group of activists black men, 228 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: one of the doctor and I forget the others right now, 229 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: but they were all very progressive people and they felt 230 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: that in Georgia. I think it was maybe nineteen fifty 231 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: nine and the brown decision was five or six years 232 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: earlier that it was time for Georgia to step up. 233 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: So they came to my high school and asked the 234 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: principal for two top students. And Hamilton and I were 235 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: good friends, but we were also competitors. And so when they, 236 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: you know, the principal set set for us because we 237 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: were first and second in our class, and we said, 238 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: of course, And so they took us down to Georgia State. Well, 239 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 1: here's how our history created armor for us, armor in 240 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: our minds, hearts, brains, everything. Because Hamilton's was I have 241 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: to admit looked at the curriculum. I had looked at 242 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,199 Speaker 1: it too, but he was the first to speak, and 243 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,719 Speaker 1: he said, this doesn't have what's gonna prepare me for 244 00:17:19,760 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: what I wanna do. I want to be a doctor, 245 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 1: and I don't like this curriculum. And then I said, yeah, 246 00:17:24,760 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 1: me too, and then he went on. He stepped out 247 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: on the deck of the school and looked north and 248 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: pointed and said, I want to go there. Well, that 249 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,280 Speaker 1: was you g A and Athens, Georgia, and it was um. 250 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: The reason the men sort of hesitated was because they 251 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: didn't know anybody in Athens and the way down there 252 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 1: was through places where ku Klux klaners had headquarters and things. 253 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 1: But in the end they figured out how to protect us, 254 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: and that's how we got there. Three days after you 255 00:17:56,040 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: arrived on campus, students rioted outside your dorm room, and 256 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: in fact, one of them even threw a brick through 257 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:07,479 Speaker 1: your window. What do you remember about that night? I 258 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 1: remember being surprised, being a black Southern girl brought up 259 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: in the A. M. E. Church. I was first upset 260 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:21,240 Speaker 1: because the brick caused the rocks caused the glass out 261 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: of my window to get all over my good clothes, 262 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: which I hadn't had time to unpack. And then the 263 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: house mother came and said, you know, the Dean is 264 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: on the way here to suspend you for your own safety. 265 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: And the tear gas that ostensibly had broken up the 266 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: riots outside was still looming in the air. And so 267 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: the next day when I got back to Atlanta, taken 268 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,439 Speaker 1: by the state patrol, Hamilton and I um, I was 269 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:59,440 Speaker 1: asked by a reporter how scared was that. I said, scared, 270 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: wasn't scared and I hadn't focused on it, but I wasn't, 271 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 1: And so they said why not? And that's where the 272 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,880 Speaker 1: p K and me comes out because my mom used 273 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 1: to send my dear mother used to send me to 274 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 1: my father's parents, who were a preacher. And I said, 275 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: my grandmother was the saint and she used to teach 276 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: me Bible verses every day. I didn't want to learn 277 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,439 Speaker 1: them because I wanted to climb the mango trees and 278 00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 1: run around and be a tom girl. But um uh, 279 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: the verse that clearly was in my head. And I've 280 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: looked at pictures of myself and I said, yes, that's 281 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 1: what I was thinking. Yeah, though I walked through the 282 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 1: valley of the Shadow of Death, I will fear no evil. 283 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: That rod and that staff they comfort me all the 284 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: days of my life. That was what was going on 285 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,639 Speaker 1: in my head. And I didn't even you know, it 286 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: was so much a part of my psyche that I 287 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 1: didn't even realize it. But I wasn't afraid. And you know, 288 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 1: you look at some of the pictures that I have 289 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: my mouth on a Virgin Mary statue. You know, I 290 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 1: have a lot of identities, and one of them is 291 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 1: a p K, a preacher's kid who was taught all 292 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,400 Speaker 1: those things. And I still I did a book talk 293 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 1: the other day with the Reverend Otis Moss, the third 294 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,880 Speaker 1: out of the Trinity United Church in Chicago, and we went. 295 00:20:24,080 --> 00:20:27,359 Speaker 1: Now he's a lot younger than me and and a 296 00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 1: brilliant minister, and we talked about the role of religion 297 00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:36,479 Speaker 1: and and I think that while not everybody is into, 298 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,919 Speaker 1: you know, religion, I think there are lessons that we 299 00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 1: can all learn from and share and be protected by. 300 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: I talked about our history as a suit of armor, 301 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: and part of my armor was created by my sainted grandmother. 302 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: And I think that, you know, not everybody's going to 303 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: be religious and go to church and all that, but 304 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: I think their lessons for even people who don't believe 305 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: in church and whatever else it's associated with, well, clearly 306 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: it gave you an enormous amount of strength. And I 307 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 1: think in faith and and religion also you can find 308 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: a life philosophy right that that obviously guided you through 309 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: the years and became you know, incredibly important, gave you 310 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: a foundation to face the many travails that that you've 311 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: faced in your life. Even religion today is divided, and 312 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: I've listened to some people on television, uh using religion 313 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: and what I find is a very offensive way. Well 314 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 1: it's kind of been ever thus the right, Charlaine, I mean, 315 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 1: you know, you know, distorting and twisting religion, and you know, 316 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: causing all kinds of strife and wars, and you know, 317 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: I mean, but the only way we can get past 318 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: that is to do what you and I are doing 319 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: right now and what you have done all of your career, 320 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: which is to try as best you and I can 321 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 1: to tell the truth. And and sometimes we make mistakes. 322 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: That's why in newspapers they have correction correction things, because 323 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,760 Speaker 1: we're we're human, and we do make stakes. But for 324 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: the most part, I think we try to do our 325 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: jobs and not make mistakes. And and and double checked 326 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: and triple checked our sources. You were hired by the 327 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: legendary editor of The New Yorker, William Sean after you graduated, 328 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: and you became the magazine's first black staff writer. You've 329 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: said that you were committed to writing about black people 330 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: in ways that really they were rarely portrayed in the 331 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:57,479 Speaker 1: media in their full humanity. Right. You know, It's just 332 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 1: so strange to me that we think this was not 333 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: that long ago, Charlene, and and and and yet and 334 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: yet people were not writing about black Americans. This way, 335 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: and and and where did that idea come from? Well, 336 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: you know, I may not have thought about it quite 337 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: that way, but uh I did. And and the New Yorker, 338 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: of course published some of the greatest writers of all time. 339 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:29,959 Speaker 1: I mean one of the heroes was J. D. Salinger. 340 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 1: Uh and those, of course. But you know, you always 341 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: look for openings where you can make a difference. And 342 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: when I looked down at the very talented, wonderful writers 343 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: like Calvin Trillon and Jared Jonas and so many others, 344 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 1: I could mention Mary McCarthy and all of those. Uh, 345 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: No one was really going into Harlem and spending time 346 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 1: with people. And I think the only way you can. 347 00:24:02,880 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 1: I mean, you can go and cover a quick one 348 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,600 Speaker 1: day story and and do the who, what, when, where 349 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: and how. But it's another thing to go in depth 350 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,520 Speaker 1: and present people. And you have to do those quickie stories. 351 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: But nobody at as I can remember, we're really doing 352 00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: any in debt and they didn't have to be long 353 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,919 Speaker 1: to be in depth. But nobody was looking at black 354 00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 1: people the way I experienced in my daily life because 355 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 1: I worked with among them and so and also I 356 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 1: wanted scoops, right, But that wasn't the main reason. It 357 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,439 Speaker 1: turns out I was getting scoops. But you know, to 358 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: go to somebody, to to to talk to somebody like 359 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: Lewis Michel, a tiny little black man who had a bookstore, 360 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: uh close to a hundred and twenty fifth Street and 361 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 1: and and Lynux Not wasn't Linux Street and seven and 362 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,879 Speaker 1: and he was just a delight and he would entertain 363 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: He was entertaining prominent black writers and even white writers 364 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,040 Speaker 1: who were coming there because he had one of the 365 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 1: largest collections by and about black people, probably well, certainly 366 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,880 Speaker 1: in New York, but maybe even in the country at 367 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: that time. And he was just delightful. He's spoken couplets. 368 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: And he was raised conscious too because in a very 369 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 1: uh what shall I say, aggressive way, he used to 370 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: say he's spoken couplets. And he used to say things 371 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: like the white man's dream of being supreme has turned 372 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:47,719 Speaker 1: to sour cream. But you know it was it was, 373 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 1: you know, one way. You know we talked earlier about 374 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 1: how you can communicate with people and get them to 375 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 1: understand and accept what you're talking about, well, poetry, it 376 00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: is one way. All the Oh, I don't know how 377 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,199 Speaker 1: many white people would have liked that that couplet, but 378 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,960 Speaker 1: he had other couplets. And he also had this collection 379 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 1: of books that white writers who were interested in looking 380 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,040 Speaker 1: at the black experience in black history would come there 381 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: and studied them. So we've had people who white people, 382 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: black people, Asian people, all kinds of people who have 383 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: been interested. Is just that it's been difficult. It was 384 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: difficult up to a point to get those stories published. 385 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: You later set up a Harlem bureau for the New 386 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: York Times, and and did you face much resistance doing that? No, 387 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: I mean, the only it was I wouldn't call it 388 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:47,959 Speaker 1: resistance because Arthur Gelb was a wonderful city editor at 389 00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: the Metropolitan editor at the New York Times, and he 390 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: was the one that was several black reporters already at 391 00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: the Times, and they had recommended to him that he 392 00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,800 Speaker 1: talked to me because I was coming to New York. 393 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: I had journalistic experience with NBC and stuff, and so uh, 394 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: he saw me, and one of the questions he asked, 395 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:12,439 Speaker 1: he said, okay, now, if you if I sent you 396 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 1: to Harlem to cover a story about a black person man, 397 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: I think he said, who had done something bad or 398 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,719 Speaker 1: who was in trouble. Would you be able to tell 399 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: that story? And I said, I don't know. It would 400 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,239 Speaker 1: depend on what I found when I reported, because so 401 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: many black people are wrongfully accused of things they didn't do, 402 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: so it requires some looking into Well. I guess the 403 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: answer was okay, because he hired me and then a 404 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: few years later he let me set up the Harlem Bureau. 405 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: So you know, I owe that to him and all 406 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:56,400 Speaker 1: of the other editors who trusted me to do my job. 407 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: Fast forward to your time the News Hour, and you 408 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 1: write about an experience with a white guest who seems 409 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 1: surprised that you actually were the one interviewing him and 410 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: apparently said to you, I guess it beats being a hairdresser. Yes, 411 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: that was at the News Hour. And you know I 412 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: said to myself, okay, be cool and respond, But you 413 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,399 Speaker 1: say here again, I had an opportunity to say, go 414 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: to hell. But I also had an opportunity not to 415 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,440 Speaker 1: react and to open his mind right and to open 416 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: his mind. So I think that while a little bit 417 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: more pressure is put on some of us to represent 418 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: as it were, um, that's our job, that's what we well, 419 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: that's what I was born to do. I think, but 420 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: so many of us. That's our job, uh, not to 421 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:04,120 Speaker 1: react in a way that you know, further angers the person, 422 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: but to try to help educate and do it in 423 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: a gentle way. I don't I don't think that you know, 424 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: a boxer, it's going to be the one to make 425 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,160 Speaker 1: the difference. Now, you see, here's the thing I mentioned 426 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:23,320 Speaker 1: a boxer. Well, up until I started writing and and 427 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: joining these news organizations, the people who got covered were 428 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: people who were doing extraordinary things like Mom and Ali 429 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:37,719 Speaker 1: and and you know sports people are are actors or 430 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: you know, people in unusual circumstances. Uh. But was their 431 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: personal life being covered? No, And so that was part 432 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: of again the motivation for me to do this book. 433 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: Our people were not all prize fighters, winning prize fighters 434 00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: at that for that matter, but they were doing all 435 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,239 Speaker 1: kinds of things, and I think it made them. The 436 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: pieces that I was doing, I hope made them human 437 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: because as I wrote about Africa and the way it 438 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: was being covered years ago, it was all the four 439 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 1: days death, disaster, despair, um and other things that uh, 440 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: you know, we're negative, We'll be right back. What do 441 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 1: you think about the whole debate that's going on in newsrooms. 442 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: I would think, particularly at The New York Times, about 443 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: the role of journalists in society and the role of objectivity, 444 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:50,120 Speaker 1: if that even exists. I don't like objectivity. My computer 445 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: is objective, although the day it had a problem getting 446 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: my picture on your I've never liked that word. I 447 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: like fair and balanced boxes. That's boxes motto. Yeah, fair 448 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: and balance. Yeah. Well, I think it's true if you 449 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 1: practice it. Um. But I also I'm a big proponent 450 00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:19,719 Speaker 1: these days of a coalition of the generations because I 451 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: think that you're younger than me, and there are others 452 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: younger than both of us, but there are some older 453 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 1: than us, and I think that we need to be 454 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: able to share our experiences with the younger generation and 455 00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:40,160 Speaker 1: talk to them about our successes and how we how 456 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: we achieve them. And if you want to take positions, 457 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 1: then get on an editorial board. Um. If you want 458 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 1: to take positions, then find vehicles that allow you to 459 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: give your opinion. But if you're gonna call yourself a journalist, 460 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: then you have to adhere to the UH principles that 461 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: make good journalists, and that is to you know, give 462 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 1: people good information, so that again, as Jim Lara said, 463 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 1: so that they can make good decisions about themselves. You 464 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: are not everybody, and you're communicating with a wide range 465 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: of people, and I think you have to appreciate that 466 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: as you go forward. I think that you don't want 467 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: to if you tell the truth or be fair and balanced. 468 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 1: I mean today you may show off some people, but 469 00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: I think that you can't allow that to to to 470 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: inhibit trying to do the best you can with what 471 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: you have. I think that was Joe Lewis was doing 472 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: the best you can with what you have, to give 473 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: them good information so that they can do the best 474 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: they can with what they have. And I think that 475 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 1: we have to communicate with these young people, which I 476 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: try to do every single day that I'm approached by 477 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 1: one or another, and I'm I'm happy to have time 478 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: to sit with them and talk about our profession and 479 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: how we keep it true to its mission and calling. 480 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: I think it's been very tough in the age of 481 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 1: social media. I see people trying to be fair and 482 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: balanced and they're eviscerated by the left or they're eviscerated 483 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 1: by the right because they're not reflecting the views of 484 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:46,719 Speaker 1: that particular segment of the population, and it is it is. 485 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: I think that's why news and many outlets has become 486 00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: so bifurcated. You know, they they are are basically getting 487 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: affirmation instead of information. As a friend of mine, set 488 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: viewers are good, and so I think it's extremely hard 489 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: to be an old fashioned, if you will, journalist who's 490 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 1: trying to delve into a topic in a way that 491 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: even gives somebody who is on the other side a platform. 492 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 1: And also, by the way, there's so many extremists out there. 493 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:27,719 Speaker 1: You do wonder if you know who you should be 494 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 1: giving a platform too, Should you be interviewing election deniers 495 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: who say, you know, again and again, despite everything to 496 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: the contrary, that the election was rigged. You know, it's 497 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: it's it's hard to be an objective journalist, especially in 498 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: today's you know, today's world, you know, speaking of the 499 00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 1: younger generation. I mean, I'm eighty, but I like to 500 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: think I'm woke, yeah, and and so I just like 501 00:34:55,760 --> 00:35:01,600 Speaker 1: to communicate with them and and and help create armor 502 00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:09,560 Speaker 1: for them too, challenge, uh, when challenges is necessary and important. 503 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,640 Speaker 1: And to be sure, they're gonna be people whose minds 504 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,879 Speaker 1: you will never change. But that's not our job. Our job, 505 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,960 Speaker 1: and and the other problem I'm though. The other problem 506 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: I'm having with a lot of the UH newspapers especially 507 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: and I'm not gonna name anyone, UH. The articles are 508 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: just when they are up against social media, some of 509 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: them and I won't say which ones unless you press me, 510 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: but but some of them have gone in the opposite direction. 511 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: Even I get exhausted and and often don't finish some 512 00:35:54,800 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: of these articles today in respected, respectable papers. But the 513 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: articles go on and on and on, And I don't 514 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: know what's caused that, because I'm not sure that's the 515 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: best way to combat or go up against Twitter by 516 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 1: writing five thousand word pieces that could have been seven 517 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty words. Now, when I sit down to 518 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 1: write an article today or somebody, I tend to go 519 00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:32,000 Speaker 1: a little bit over. But then I've fortunately had good 520 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:35,239 Speaker 1: editors who said, well, now what about this? Do we 521 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: really need this paragraph? Or can we sum this up 522 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: this way? So you know, we hope for good editors 523 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: who can who can help us. But I don't know 524 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 1: what has caused this retreat from the seven hundred and 525 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 1: fifty word piece that tells you in the opening what 526 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 1: it's about, tells you in the second paragraph what you're 527 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: gonna talk about in the piece, and then another five 528 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: or six hundred words that gives you all you need 529 00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 1: to be in especially well informed. That's just me. But 530 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 1: um as I said, you know, given my years of 531 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:22,600 Speaker 1: experience as a journalist with very good editors, I just 532 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: don't understand that trend. And that's interesting because yes, it 533 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:31,640 Speaker 1: seems to be working against you know, the prevailing winds 534 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: and people with short attention spans. On the other hand, 535 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: you know, you don't want to you do want to 536 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: have deep, highly research reporting to right, but you just 537 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,239 Speaker 1: don't know who if it's reaching. But you can do 538 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 1: that in fifty words or fifteen hundred. But but you know, 539 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: and the other thing is that when I worked with 540 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 1: the New York Times, you had to tell if you're 541 00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,040 Speaker 1: doing a newspiece, you had to tell in the first 542 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 1: paragraph what the story was about, and in the second 543 00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: paragraph you had to expand on that, and then for 544 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: another you know, five words open up more of that story. 545 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 1: And there were also times when you did longer pieces 546 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: for the magazine or or so forth. But the competition 547 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: is social media, and so somehow those among us who 548 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 1: are concerned about informing people in a good way. I 549 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: think I need to figure out the best way to 550 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:41,680 Speaker 1: compete with social media. The media landscape has changed so much. 551 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:46,080 Speaker 1: I'm sixty five, you're eighty, and when we started out 552 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 1: it was a very different ball of wax. And now, Um, 553 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:56,920 Speaker 1: as you said, social media is is dominant in some ways, 554 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: and people are are creating their own echo chambers and 555 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:10,200 Speaker 1: and they're getting them, you know, through through their own 556 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:15,320 Speaker 1: sort of developing their own quote unquote communities, etcetera, etcetera. 557 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 1: Would you would you recommend going into journalism today And 558 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,160 Speaker 1: do you think you would have been as attracted to 559 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:29,399 Speaker 1: the profession today as you were those years ago when 560 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 1: you were reading Brenda Star and telling your mom, Gosh, 561 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 1: this is what I want to do. Mom. That's a 562 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:42,359 Speaker 1: tough question, um, because I don't know, Uh, it would 563 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: have depended, I guess on my experience. Um, you know, 564 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 1: back in those days, I saw the need, uh too 565 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 1: fulfill a gap in news coverage, a gap about our people, 566 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 1: or or a gap that had not positive stories but 567 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: necessarily but accurate stories about people of color. And and 568 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 1: so I'm not sure, going back over my history if 569 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:23,440 Speaker 1: that is something I would still like to do. But 570 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 1: I guess the best answer I can give you is 571 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:29,799 Speaker 1: I don't see anything else I would want to do, 572 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,319 Speaker 1: and is it something you would You know, when young 573 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: people say ms Hunter Galt, I want to be a journalist, 574 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 1: what do you think? What do you say to them? 575 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: I say, great, that's really good. How are you getting prepared? 576 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,520 Speaker 1: That's that's what I say. And you know, when I 577 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: was promoting this book before I had a publisher, I 578 00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 1: spoke with the head of a journalism UH college and 579 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: he said, look, if what you have shown in this 580 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,440 Speaker 1: UH in this interview is what is going into that book, 581 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: I hope that every journalism college in this country will 582 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,520 Speaker 1: use it for UH to teach their students. Now I'm 583 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: not self promoting. Well, I guess that's what that amount 584 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 1: of student, but I didn't say it. I'm quoting. I'm 585 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:36,880 Speaker 1: quoting an editor. And then later I spoke to someone 586 00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: I won't say at which university, but he said, we 587 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,560 Speaker 1: are going to welcome this book for our young journalists. 588 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:48,440 Speaker 1: So there are people out there still in in in 589 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,120 Speaker 1: journalism colleges at the University of Georgia. I know they're 590 00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:56,320 Speaker 1: doing that at other colleges like the one I just mentioned, 591 00:41:56,320 --> 00:41:59,520 Speaker 1: but didn't mention which college it was. So I think 592 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:03,920 Speaker 1: that there are leaders in the profession who people who 593 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,799 Speaker 1: have been in the profession or who or people who 594 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:12,440 Speaker 1: have studied the profession and have some historical sense of 595 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:17,760 Speaker 1: the role of journalists and journalism, and they are teaching 596 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 1: young people. I met a young woman here on the 597 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,280 Speaker 1: vineyard the other day when I was doing an interview 598 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:30,879 Speaker 1: at the local television station. She's what about I think 599 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:36,200 Speaker 1: she told me she was twenty four, but she is. 600 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:39,560 Speaker 1: She said, I'm following in your footsteps. And I cried. 601 00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,360 Speaker 1: I mean I didn't cry, but I had tears in 602 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,080 Speaker 1: my eyes, which you know, amounted to almost crying. I 603 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,759 Speaker 1: was so proud of that. And one day I'm going 604 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:51,799 Speaker 1: to call her up because she's about to go to 605 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,799 Speaker 1: Korea where she wants to do some more work, and 606 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:57,399 Speaker 1: I'm gonna just sit with her and I'm gonna ask her, 607 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:02,480 Speaker 1: tell me, what what was it about me that impressed you? 608 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:08,439 Speaker 1: And do you see your attitudes about journalism among other 609 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 1: young people your age? And I think they're out there, 610 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 1: they really are. It's just that in so many instances, 611 00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:22,280 Speaker 1: they're finding fewer and fewer places to be good journalists. 612 00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:25,719 Speaker 1: That's why I was thinking that maybe, you know, we 613 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:33,360 Speaker 1: need to create some new new outlets that that somehow 614 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 1: bridge these divides. We need to have a more robust 615 00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:43,799 Speaker 1: presence in quote unquote flyover States. We need to you know, 616 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:51,440 Speaker 1: bridge some of these divides and give people a place 617 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:56,640 Speaker 1: too to tell their stories. And I think trust can 618 00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:01,239 Speaker 1: be one back. But you know, right now, it's it's 619 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 1: a it's a big challenge, isn't it. It is it is, 620 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:11,320 Speaker 1: But but we've always had challenges and we have overcome. 621 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:18,160 Speaker 1: And so I live in the zone of hope and 622 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:24,000 Speaker 1: never never giving up. And if you look back at 623 00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:29,200 Speaker 1: our history, we've had some major challenges all throughout our 624 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:34,480 Speaker 1: history and we have overcome. And so I think that's 625 00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,680 Speaker 1: why it's important to be sure that our history is 626 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:43,880 Speaker 1: taught accurately, because it's in that history that you find 627 00:44:44,040 --> 00:44:49,799 Speaker 1: the the encouragement to keep on keeping on, as they 628 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,879 Speaker 1: used to say, and I still say, I still say 629 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 1: it to all right, listen, I still say keep on trucking. 630 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:03,040 Speaker 1: So but um, you know, I like, I like what 631 00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 1: you said. I live in the zone of hope, and 632 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to think about that every time I get 633 00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: disheartened and depressed and feel that this country is just 634 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:21,960 Speaker 1: sort of sliding into despair and and and is that 635 00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 1: a point of no return. I'm going to remember what 636 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 1: you said, Charlene. I live in the zone of hope. 637 00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,000 Speaker 1: Thank you. And you can take me to dinner one 638 00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,320 Speaker 1: night and I can give you some more of that. Okay, 639 00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,880 Speaker 1: I would love that. Well, when you're in New York City, 640 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 1: please let me know. Your book is called My People. 641 00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:45,319 Speaker 1: It's a compilation of all the incredibly important stories you've 642 00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:49,040 Speaker 1: done through the years, a tremendous body of work that 643 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:54,279 Speaker 1: I think is an excellent blueprint for journalists today and 644 00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:58,520 Speaker 1: for future journalists who want to go into our profession. Charlene, 645 00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:02,200 Speaker 1: thank you so much for talking to us today. Look, 646 00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:07,560 Speaker 1: thank you. You've inspired me to keep on keeping on great. 647 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:17,960 Speaker 1: Right back at you. Next Question with Katie Kurik is 648 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,800 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Media and Katie Couric Media. 649 00:46:21,080 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: The executive producers Army Katie Couric and Courtney Litz. The 650 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:30,200 Speaker 1: supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Associate producers Derek Clements and 651 00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:34,759 Speaker 1: Adriana Fasio. The show is edited and mixed by Derrek Clements. 652 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,040 Speaker 1: For more information about today's episode, or to sign up 653 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:40,760 Speaker 1: for my morning newsletter, Wake Up Paul, go to Katie 654 00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,520 Speaker 1: correct dot com. You can also find me at Katie 655 00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,200 Speaker 1: Curic on Instagram and all my social media channels. For 656 00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:50,399 Speaker 1: more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart 657 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,040 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your 658 00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:54,840 Speaker 1: favorite shows,