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Speaker 1: I hope this is on the podcast you guys do outtakes.

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Speaker 1: I just want you to know this is a dream

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Speaker 1: for me because the last time we were sitting across

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Speaker 1: the way like this was literally on the Today Show.

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Speaker 1: I can't even think about when that was. I want

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Speaker 1: to say, maybe during the Martha Stewart trial, maybe back

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Speaker 1: then or even earlier, and you were there and it

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Speaker 1: was like the Queen was there. I couldn't even understand

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Speaker 1: what was happening. I was just beyond myself.

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Speaker 2: And look at you. Now, you're such a huge star.

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Speaker 1: No, nor you are.

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Speaker 2: And I'm so proud of everything that you've accomplished. I've

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Speaker 2: always felt that Andrew should be co anchoring the Today

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Speaker 2: Show personally, but you've done pretty damn well on CNBC

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Speaker 2: and The New York Times. So thank you for being here,

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Speaker 2: thank you for having me. Let me go ahead and

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Speaker 2: do the intro. So what really happened in nineteen twenty

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Speaker 2: nine and why does it still matter? Nearly a century

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Speaker 2: after the most devastating crash in a mayor and history

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Speaker 2: deal book founder, New York Times reporter and CNBC host

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Speaker 2: Andrew Ross Sorkin has unearthed the human story behind at

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Speaker 2: the ambition, the greed, the blind faith that the boom

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Speaker 2: would never end. In his new book nineteen twenty nine,

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Speaker 2: Sorkin shows how that era's delusion still echoes today in

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Speaker 2: our markets, our tech obsessions, even our politics. We're going

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Speaker 2: to be talking about what history can teach us about capitalism, risk,

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Speaker 2: and our endless belief that this time it will be different. Andrew,

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Speaker 2: I'm so happy to see you.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to do

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Speaker 1: this with you.

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Speaker 2: First of all, you know when I saw this book,

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Speaker 2: I heard about this book, and then I actually put

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Speaker 2: the book on my scale. I thought, how the hell

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Speaker 2: did you find time to write this. You are the

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Speaker 2: busiest human being on the planet. You do squawk Box

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Speaker 2: on CNBC every morning. You write fantastic articles for the

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Speaker 2: New York Times. You do deal Book, a newsletter, the

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Speaker 2: deal Book Live event.

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Speaker 1: What the hell it took me eight years, that's the answer.

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Speaker 1: I don't play golf, I don't do other things. I

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Speaker 1: do have three children I do who are so happy

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Speaker 1: that this book is over. By the way, but I

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Speaker 1: would do this on airplanes on weekends, at nights. I

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Speaker 1: would be sneaking little time in at any moment I

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Speaker 1: possibly could.

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Speaker 2: So what was it about nineteen twenty nine? Andrew? I mean,

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Speaker 2: you have a choice to write about so many different

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Speaker 2: interesting moments in history and what's happening today too, because

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Speaker 2: the world is just exploding. So how did you decide? Gosh,

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Speaker 2: I really want to write about this one specific year.

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Speaker 1: So I'm always chasing interesting, which oftentimes means chasing failure

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Speaker 1: and no, because I oftentimes think that's where the most

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Speaker 1: drama is. It's where the most interesting characters are. It's

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Speaker 1: where we can try to understand things that we do

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Speaker 1: well and things where we may need to do better.

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Speaker 1: I had written this book To Big to Fail in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eight about the financial crisis then, and

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Speaker 1: people used to ask me about nineteen twenty nine and say,

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Speaker 1: how does two thousand and eight compared to nineteen twenty nine,

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Speaker 1: And I'd always be like, I don't know. I think,

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Speaker 1: like most Americans, we knew something very terrible happened in

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty nine. We all sort of have a vague

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Speaker 1: notion that the Great Depression happened. Then the stock market fell,

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Speaker 1: But I didn't know who the people were, what they

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Speaker 1: were saying to each other, what their motivations were, what

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Speaker 1: their incentives were, Who's sleeping with who, what's going on here?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I really wanted to know these things. And

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Speaker 1: so I went on a vacation actually with my wife,

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Speaker 1: like a real nerd, and I brought all these books

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Speaker 1: with me about different characters in nineteen twenty nine and

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Speaker 1: La Da Dah, and they were all written in the

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Speaker 1: sort of the nineteen thirties forties, when most famous books

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Speaker 1: was written in the fifties. Most of my economists sort

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Speaker 1: of talking about them in sort of economic terms and

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Speaker 1: structures and charts and all of these things, and I

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Speaker 1: sort of walked away saying, there's got to be more

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Speaker 1: to this, more human drama, human drive. Look. The books

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Speaker 1: that I always loved were things like, you know, Den

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Speaker 1: of Thieves or Barbarians at the Gate. These were sort

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Speaker 1: of these great dramas about business where you felt like

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Speaker 1: you were watching a movie. And I thought, I wonder

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Speaker 1: if I could do that. And I happened to be

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Speaker 1: at Harvard University giving a speech and I got there early,

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Speaker 1: which you know me well enough to know I am

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Speaker 1: never anywhere early, and I had this extra time. I

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Speaker 1: walk into the library there, Baker Library, and I say

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Speaker 1: the archivist, Kai, look at these boxes you have from

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Speaker 1: the late twenties, early thirties, and there was a guy

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Speaker 1: named Thomas Lamont who was running JP Morgan then, and

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Speaker 1: his family had donated all of his papers as letters,

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Speaker 1: his diaries and all the things. And I open up

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Speaker 1: this box and there are these transcripts in the box

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Speaker 1: of his conversations. As secretary would keep these transcripts of

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Speaker 1: him conversing with Roosevelt and Hoover. It was a transcript,

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Speaker 1: so it would say what he said and what the

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Speaker 1: president said. And I thought, wow, I hadn't read this

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Speaker 1: in any of the books. And they're talking about all

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Speaker 1: the things that are actually happening. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: not to bring this to today, these conversations are like

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Speaker 1: the conversations that like all these CEOs are now having

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Speaker 1: with Trump.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, all the time, and we're going to talk about

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Speaker 2: the parallel.

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Speaker 1: But I'm thinking to myself, oh my goodness, Okay, could

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Speaker 1: I take that kind of material and do this writ

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Speaker 1: large now. The truth is the archivist said to me

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Speaker 1: that she had read to Bigger Fael and she said,

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Speaker 1: you're not going to do this book. This doesn't exist

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Speaker 1: because the material is not there. It's there for this guy,

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Speaker 1: but the other people you're gonna struggle.

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Speaker 2: And you took that as a challenge.

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Speaker 1: I took that I didn't want to believe her. Now

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Speaker 1: she by the way, she was partially right. I think

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Speaker 1: most historians sort of find two or three or four

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Speaker 1: archives and then they excavate the archive and they really

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Speaker 1: just go deep in the archive. The challenge in this

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Speaker 1: case was there really wasn't like one or two or

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Speaker 1: three places you could go. It was you had to

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Speaker 1: be like needle in a haystack situation with you know,

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Speaker 1: fifteen twenty thirty different places, and you'd almost have to guess.

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Speaker 1: You'd almost have to say, Okay, well I don't have

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Speaker 1: an archive for this character. But he might have called

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Speaker 1: somebody or talked to someone after Well, who are the

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Speaker 1: twelve people he might have talked to? Okay, I'm now

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Speaker 1: going to go to their archives and then pray to

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Speaker 1: God that I'm going to find some letter there. And

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Speaker 1: sometimes you would and sometimes you wouldn't.

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Speaker 2: Tracking all this stuff down sounds like it was more

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Speaker 2: than a full time job. And I know that you

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Speaker 2: enlisted these grad students during COVID, right, So talk about

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Speaker 2: I mean, honestly just thinking about how overwhelming this task was.

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Speaker 2: How you were able to track all this stuff down.

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Speaker 1: Well, So one of the things I did, and this

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Speaker 1: was sort of maybe the mother of invention. During COVID,

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Speaker 1: I had been going to a lot of these libraries.

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Speaker 1: I had a researcher who I'd worked with early on

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Speaker 1: and was planning to spend the time in the stacks,

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Speaker 1: and I ultimately did, by the way, spend extraordinary amount

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Speaker 1: of time, maybe too much time in the stacks. But

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Speaker 1: during COVID, you weren't allowed in. So we would call

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Speaker 1: the librarian and say, is there any student who's allowed

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Speaker 1: in the library. Sometimes they had a dissertation or a

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Speaker 1: thesis that was due, and so they were allowed. Those

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Speaker 1: like very select students were allowed in. And so I

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Speaker 1: would then pay the students.

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Speaker 2: How did you find them?

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Speaker 1: By the way, the librarian would usually say, I'll give

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Speaker 1: you some emails of some people go for yeah, and

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Speaker 1: then you'd pay them. And then you'd say, I need

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Speaker 1: to find box one fifty two or whatever it is,

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Speaker 1: and I need you to take a picture of every

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Speaker 1: page in one fifty two, and we'll set up these

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Speaker 1: sort of elaborate drop box folders and then you'd read it.

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Speaker 1: It was a very tedious process, but it was actually

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Speaker 1: quite helpful.

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Speaker 2: I have to say, how many grad students did you

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Speaker 2: work with, and I hope you acknowledge them in the book?

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Speaker 1: Did you Yes, a bunch of them? I do a handful,

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Speaker 1: only a handful. The truth is that after the pandemic

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Speaker 1: was over, I oftentimes found myself back at a lot

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Speaker 1: of the same libraries because one of the things I

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Speaker 1: really did learn was you almost felt like you needed

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Speaker 1: to see everything because you were worried that something was missed.

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Speaker 1: Maybe there was a box that you didn't know to

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Speaker 1: look in. I know about all this history stuff. You know.

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Speaker 1: Some boxes are indexed so people know what's in them.

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Speaker 1: Some boxes have nobody knows what's in them, and sometimes people,

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Speaker 1: as a result, don't even look. And that's where the

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Speaker 1: great sort of needle in a haystack situation comes into play,

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Speaker 1: because sometimes you will land on something go ah, that's amazing.

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Speaker 2: Now I understand the eight year process. So you amass

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Speaker 2: all this original research, Andrew, and you read it, you

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Speaker 2: learn about all these specific characters, and you write this

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Speaker 2: tone about the year. And I'm curious as you read

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Speaker 2: and sifted through all these stories. What was the theme,

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Speaker 2: What surfaced that made you think this would make such

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Speaker 2: a compelling story, and what was that story?

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Speaker 1: I think the animating idea for me was a the

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Speaker 1: people themselves sort of the human condition, and what was

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Speaker 1: happening in the nineteen twenties was just so fascinating to

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Speaker 1: me in that this was like a boom like nothing

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Speaker 1: we've ever seen it. Maybe it's a boom like today

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Speaker 1: we're having with AI or something, but it was like

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Speaker 1: a generational shift in the whole country. So prior to

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Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen, nobody ever took credit, nobody borrowed money. It

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Speaker 1: was considered a moral sin in America to borrow money,

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Speaker 1: like you just wouldn't do that. General Motors started doing

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Speaker 1: that actually helped them sell more cars, and then Sears

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Speaker 1: Roebuck clocked what was happening and said, okay, we should

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Speaker 1: do that for appliances. And then a guy named Charlie Mitchell,

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Speaker 1: who ran a bank called National City later on become

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Speaker 1: City Group you know now, said okay, well we can

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Speaker 1: do this too, and we're going to lend people money

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Speaker 1: so that they can buy stocks. And there was this

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Speaker 1: explosion and all of these people became celebrities, business people, CEOs.

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Speaker 1: All of this was the celebrity all of the things

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Speaker 1: that are happening now. You know, Elon mus Sam Altman,

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Speaker 1: Jamie Diamond, That like really started in the nineteen twenties.

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Speaker 2: And it was all because of credit.

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Speaker 1: And it was all because of credit, because all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, everybody gamble and brokerage houses start emerging on

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Speaker 1: the corners of streets, like the way they're Starbucks today.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they're just everywhere and you could go in

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Speaker 1: and you could literally give them a dollar. If you

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Speaker 1: put down a dollar, they would give you. They would

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Speaker 1: lend you ten dollars. So as the market's going up.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, when I say the market's going up,

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Speaker 1: it's not like going up ten percent a year. In

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty eight to the year before nineteen twenty nine,

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Speaker 1: the market went up forty eight percent. By September of

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty nine, the market was up ninety percent. So

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Speaker 1: this was like free money and people, you know, they

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Speaker 1: feel wealthy. They're running around, they're doing all of these

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Speaker 1: crazy things, and it was just so fascinating to see.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to say greed, but I think the

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Speaker 1: human condition is to want more. Everybody wants more, and

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Speaker 1: people knew that this was getting out of hand. It

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Speaker 1: wasn't that nobody was saying, you know, this isn't crazy.

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Speaker 1: There were cassandras in the room, but nobody really wanted

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Speaker 1: to stop that. The party was going, the drinks were flowing,

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Speaker 1: you know what.

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Speaker 2: I mean, wealth was growing.

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Speaker 1: Well, there's a great line. It actually happened right before

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Speaker 1: the financial crisis in two thousand and eight. Guy himed

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Speaker 1: Chuck Prince, who was actually the CEO of City Group, says,

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Speaker 1: you know, when the music's playing, you have to dance.

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Speaker 1: And these folks in the nineteen twenties they were dancing,

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Speaker 1: and I thought that was it was so interesting to

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Speaker 1: see all of those component parts and then to see

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Speaker 1: the mistakes that they were making along the way. And

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Speaker 1: the story also goes in many ways actually beyond nineteen.

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Speaker 1: I mean, ninet twenty nine is sort of the pivotal domino,

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Speaker 1: but the story really goes through the summer of nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirty three because and I think that will also maybe

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Speaker 1: change your impression of nineteen twenty nine. People think like

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Speaker 1: there was some kind of great crash, the great depression happens.

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Speaker 1: That's not really what happens. It's like there's a series

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Speaker 1: of crashes actually, and then a series of terrible decisions

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Speaker 1: that get made in Washington, oftentimes in conjunction with the

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Speaker 1: CEOs and bankers who are trying to influence the president

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Speaker 1: and tell them crazy things that really lead to what

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Speaker 1: ultimately turns into the Great Depression.

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Speaker 2: Before we talk about this moment, actually two moments in

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty nine, and what happened in those bad decisions.

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Speaker 2: I'm fascinated by the Roaring twenties, you know, and was

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Speaker 2: this kind of environment or atmosphere where everybody was like

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Speaker 2: going crazy and live and large. Was that impacting everyone

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Speaker 2: or only a certain segment of society.

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Speaker 1: It's a great question. So the inequality was real in

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Speaker 1: nineteen twentyine, very similar to now. But I do think

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Speaker 1: all of this was sort of under the guise of

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Speaker 1: democratizing finance. So you did have the quote unquote ordinary

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Speaker 1: American going into these effectively gambling salons otherwise known as

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Speaker 1: brokerages to try to participate in this dream. There was

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Speaker 1: this almost lottery like idea, but also, by the way,

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Speaker 1: a real shift in what I even describe as the

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Speaker 1: American Dream. You know, prior to this period, people really

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Speaker 1: did to talk about the sort of Horatio Alger story

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Speaker 1: being the American dream, the sort of get rich quick

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Speaker 1: fantasy of capitalism or whatever however you want to describe it.

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Speaker 1: That was a phenomenon of the nineteen twenties. There was

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Speaker 1: also a technological shift too, happening. So here we are

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Speaker 1: on a podcast with video. The hottest stock in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenties was tick or symbol radio.

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Speaker 2: I knew you were going to say.

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Speaker 1: RCA, and that was like the Nvidia of its time

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Speaker 1: or something. And everybody was going crazy because they thought

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Speaker 1: this is going to change the world, just the way

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Speaker 1: we thought the Internet was to change the world, just

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Speaker 1: the way we think AI is going to change the world.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing how many similarities. And I do want to

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Speaker 2: talk about that in a moment, but first I want

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Speaker 2: to hear about some of the characters that you really

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Speaker 2: learn about and that you profiled, and whose diaries you read, etc.

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Speaker 2: And letters. I think a lot of people think, oh,

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Speaker 2: Hoover Rose about and maybe Carter Glass when they think

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Speaker 2: of this whole episode in American history. But let's talk

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Speaker 2: about some of the others that are less known but

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Speaker 2: will be now because of your book. Thomas Lamont, managing

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Speaker 2: partner at JP Morgan. Just tell us quickly about him, Okay.

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Speaker 1: So JP Morgan was considered like the most important bank

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Speaker 1: in the country still now is now was then? He

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Speaker 1: really was the guy running the bank. So the guy

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Speaker 1: named Jack Morgan, the son of JP Morgan JPMorgan had

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Speaker 1: died at this point, was ostensibly the CEO, but Thomas

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Speaker 1: Lamont was really the man who ran the bank. And

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Speaker 1: he was the ultimate sort of client guy. He believed

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Speaker 1: that if you could just get a bunch of people

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Speaker 1: in a room, like the right people, you could control

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Speaker 1: the world. And he would have dinner with Hitler and

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Speaker 1: with Mussolini and with Roosevelt, with Hoover. You know, this

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Speaker 1: guy was just he was everywhere and everything. He was

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Speaker 1: befriending all the journalists, so he was.

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Speaker 2: With Schmoozer and Chief.

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Speaker 1: Schmoozer in Chief. He was whispering in everybody's ears. This

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Speaker 1: was that guy. And the truth is he tried to

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Speaker 1: control this thing, but it sort of got away from him.

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Speaker 1: So he did believe that somehow he could keep all

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Speaker 1: of this from bubbling over and then October ninet twenty

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Speaker 1: one comes around. He gets the people in the room

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Speaker 1: and doesn't work.

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Speaker 2: I want to know what happened on that day, but

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Speaker 2: first let me go through a couple more characters. Charles

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Speaker 2: Sunshine Charlie Mitchell, CEO of National City Bank. You mentioned

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Speaker 2: him earlier.

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Speaker 1: Charlie is my favorite character in the book. And Charlie really.

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Speaker 2: Did feel like you know him, right, I feel like

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Speaker 2: I know Charlie.

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Speaker 1: Charlie ran as I said, the bank that becomes City Group.

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Speaker 1: He was the Jamie Diamond of his time, and he

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Speaker 1: was as famous as Jamie Diamond run JP Morgan today,

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Speaker 1: but he's probably the most famous banker in America in

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Speaker 1: the world. He invented the idea. He was the one

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Speaker 1: who said, okay, we should lend money to folks to

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Speaker 1: buy stock. He was called Sunshine Charlie because he would

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Speaker 1: tell anybody who would listen to him that everything was

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Speaker 1: always going to be better. He always had a smile

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Speaker 1: on his face at all times. That was sort of

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Speaker 1: his job and his way. And he gets I don't

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Speaker 1: want to give away what happened, but he does a

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Speaker 1: little side deal at one point with his wife, who

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Speaker 1: gets involved in this whole thing. And let's just say

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Speaker 1: that the police show up at his house at one

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Speaker 1: point and he gets handcuffed. We won't say what happens

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Speaker 1: after that for lessons.

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Speaker 2: So Sunshiny at that point.

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Speaker 1: At that point, that happened in nineteen thirty three, so

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Speaker 1: it took a while for things to catch up to him.

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Speaker 2: The other one is Jesse Livermore. Poor Jesse Livermore, right.

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Speaker 1: Poor Jesse Livermore. So one of the I mean, look,

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Speaker 1: I know this probably sounds like a book about the economy.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of like a crazy drama. So Jesse Livermore

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Speaker 1: is a emotionally tortured short seller. This is somebody who

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Speaker 1: bets against stock and he was famous in the twenties

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Speaker 1: for betting against dock and winning. He almost is basically

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Speaker 1: out of business by nineteen twenty eight and twenty nine

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Speaker 1: because the stock market keeps going up and up. In

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Speaker 1: a book, he's losing his shirt. You can't bet stocks

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Speaker 1: are going down during this period, and he magically comes

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Speaker 1: back and makes a crazy trade in the fall of

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Speaker 1: nineteen twenty nine walks away with one hundred plus million dollars, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, within a year or two, he had

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Speaker 1: simarily lost again.

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Speaker 2: He was sort of addicted.

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Speaker 1: Addicted you might describe as like degenerate gambler of sorts,

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Speaker 1: and I will give away the ending. He ultimately, in

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Speaker 1: nineteen forty one, walks into what was then the cloak

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Speaker 1: room at the Sherry Netherland up on Fifth Avenue near

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Speaker 1: the Apple Store, right, you know, the Apple store wasn't

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Speaker 1: there back then, and he shoots himself in the head

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Speaker 1: and kills himself. So there's actually a number of suicides

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Speaker 1: that take place during this whole period, a bunch of

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Speaker 1: people who jump out of windows.

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Speaker 2: And I think that people who don't know that much

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Speaker 2: about the crash, I think that's what they always think of,

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Speaker 2: people jumping out of windows, people losing their everything, their wealth,

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Speaker 2: and a matter of minutes. Right.

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Speaker 1: So, my grandfather, Sidney Sorkin, who's no longer alive, lived

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Speaker 1: so he was ninety one years old. He was down

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Speaker 1: there in October of ninety twenty nine. His brother was

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Speaker 1: a messenger boy, and I think he was eleven. He

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Speaker 1: went with his older brother down there, and he used

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Speaker 1: to tell us a story about how he saw somebody

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Speaker 1: to jump out of a window. In October nineteen twenty nine. Wow,

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Speaker 1: And he never in his whole ninety one years bought

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Speaker 1: a sheriff stock And it was interesting. It was a

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Speaker 1: generationally scarring event for him. I think he bought bonds.

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Speaker 1: Maybe he had some mutual funds. I don't know, but stock

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Speaker 1: like individuals. He always thought the stock market was like

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Speaker 1: this place for gamblers because of this sort of formidable

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Speaker 1: experience he had. But I think a lot of Americans

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Speaker 1: had that.

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Speaker 2: My dad too, by the way, you know, when I

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Speaker 2: was starting to make some money and TV news, my

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Speaker 2: dad was always like Muni bonds. He really wanted something

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Speaker 2: super safe and secure. And thinking about that, my dad

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Speaker 2: was born in nineteen twenty so I think probably like

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Speaker 2: your grandfather, he had the same scarring experience, even if

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Speaker 2: it was from Afar right now.

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Speaker 1: Weirdly, I should note, just to be factual as a journalist,

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Speaker 1: one of the more interesting things that I did learn

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Speaker 1: is that actually, from a data perspective, there were actually

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Speaker 1: not more suicides in nineteen twenty nine than there were

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Speaker 1: the year before. Oh wow, So there's sort of this

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Speaker 1: impression that you know that everybody's jumping out the window.

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Speaker 2: No, But I guess because it was so dramatic that

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Speaker 2: it has been overblown in retrospect, right, Yeah, that is interesting.

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Speaker 1: And I think also in the moment, to the extent

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Speaker 1: there were suicides, they were more dramatic. There were people

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Speaker 1: shooting themselves in the head, they were jumping out of windows,

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Speaker 1: and they were being covered in the newspapers constantly, because oftentimes,

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Speaker 1: if you read the article about somebody committed suicide, it

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Speaker 1: was also about how they had lost their fortune, or

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Speaker 1: lost all their money, or had to mortgage their home.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it was in a sort of truncated period of time, Andrew,

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Speaker 2: maybe there weren't more, but maybe it was in a

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Speaker 2: limited time span. I don't know. Get on that, will you?

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Speaker 1: I will? I will.

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Speaker 2: Hi everyone, Katie Couric. You know I'm always on the

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Speaker 2: go between running my media company, hosting my podcast, and

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Speaker 2: of course covering the news. And I know that to

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Speaker 2: keep doing what I love, I need to start caring

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Speaker 2: for what gets me there, my feet. That's why I

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Speaker 2: decided to try the Good Feet stores personalized arch support system.

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00:20:20,800 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 2: I met with a Good Feet arch support specialist and

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Speaker 2: after a personalized fitting, I left the store with my

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00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,040
Speaker 2: goodfeet dot com to learn more, find the nearest store,

410
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 2: or book your own free personalized fitting. The book opens

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Speaker 2: with sunshine Charlie Mitchell, the CEO of National City Bank,

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Speaker 2: for turning to his office at fifty five Wall Street

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Speaker 2: on October twenty eighth, nineteen twenty nine, hours after the

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Speaker 2: market had closed with a thirteen percent drop.

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Speaker 1: What happens next, Well, Charlie finds out that while he

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Speaker 1: was out of the office all day, he had joined

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Speaker 1: the board of the New York Fed while he was

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Speaker 1: out of these emergency meetings, that his trader had bought

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Speaker 1: a whole ton of stock in the bank itself, and

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Speaker 1: they didn't have the money to buy the stock. So,

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Speaker 1: you know how companies buy their own stock, So back then,

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Speaker 1: companies did the same thing. The problem was that during these,

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Speaker 1: especially these sort of crazy periods in October twenty nine,

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Speaker 1: the stock market, like if you looked at the board

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Speaker 1: of the stock prices on the exchange back then, they

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Speaker 1: were oftentimes like two or three or four five hours

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Speaker 1: behind what was actually happening in reality, and so people

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Speaker 1: were buying stocks not understanding what the prices were, and

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Speaker 1: so they effectively bought thirty plus million dollars worth of their

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Speaker 1: and they couldn't afford it, which put him in this

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Speaker 1: position trying to figure out what am I going to

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Speaker 1: do to try to save the bank without anybody knowing.

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Speaker 1: He all of a sudden has a sort of existential crisis,

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Speaker 1: and well, I don't know if I want to give

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Speaker 1: away what happens?

436
00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,680
Speaker 2: We'll just give a little and people will still buy

437
00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 2: the phone.

438
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no. One of the things one of the

439
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:24,159
Speaker 1: things that he does is he decides he's going to

440
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,240
Speaker 1: put this whole thing on his back. He goes to

441
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,439
Speaker 1: JP Morgan to try to get them to give him

442
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 1: a loan and for him to buy the stock off

443
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:34,200
Speaker 1: of the bank, because he didn't want anyone to know

444
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,880
Speaker 1: that the bank would have otherwise been in trouble. And

445
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 1: that decision, which that sort of secret decision, turns into

446
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 1: a sort of bigger problem for him later because he

447
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:50,639
Speaker 1: then tries to do some sort of tac shenanigans with

448
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 1: his wife.

449
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:54,680
Speaker 2: Lets to say, that leads to his arrest. I think

450
00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 2: when we imagine this crash, right we think of a crash.

451
00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 1: Do you think one thing this is not real. It

452
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 1: was like multiple days.

453
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 2: And you say it wasn't a moment, it was a

454
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 2: relentless unraveling. Talk about that.

455
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,680
Speaker 1: Well, so, the very strange thing is that despite the

456
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 1: market going down, you know, forty to fifty percent between

457
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:17,440
Speaker 1: September or end of September and November, by the end

458
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,000
Speaker 1: of the year, and this is the part that most

459
00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 1: people probably would never even imagine, by the end of

460
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,959
Speaker 1: the year, the stock market was only down seventeen percent,

461
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:28,640
Speaker 1: and so there was this sort of relief thing happening,

462
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,280
Speaker 1: except that all of these people had lost their money

463
00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 1: in the process. And I think the one thing to

464
00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: think about with this stock market, which is just so

465
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,880
Speaker 1: different than it is today. You know, when the stock

466
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,120
Speaker 1: market goes down today, people say, oh, well, I bought

467
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,199
Speaker 1: the stock at fifty dollars and now the stocks at

468
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,880
Speaker 1: thirty dollars, so I lost twenty dollars a share. Not good.

469
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 1: But what was happening is most people had borrowed all

470
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 1: the money to buy the stock. So it wasn't just

471
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: that you lost the twenty dollars, it was that you

472
00:23:55,680 --> 00:24:00,040
Speaker 1: owed the bank oftentimes like one hundred dollars. And so

473
00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: people are going into hawk. I mean There's a great

474
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:08,199
Speaker 1: little scene that I landed on with Graucho Marx, who

475
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,399
Speaker 1: at that point was not actually famous or really that

476
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: famous yet, and he was out in Long Island. He

477
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 1: was pretty conservative, according to his son, with his money,

478
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: but he was spending like all day long at this

479
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 1: brokerage house in Long Island, just following the tape like constantly.

480
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 1: That's what he did.

481
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 2: It was like smoking his cigars.

482
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 1: Smarky cigars, and following the tape. And he actually was

483
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 1: a very smart guy. He was questioning his broker about

484
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:35,080
Speaker 1: whether you should buy RCA. Why is RCA not giving

485
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:36,919
Speaker 1: out dividends. Well, they weren't giving out dinners because they

486
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 1: don't have a cash. But the brokers were like, this

487
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 1: time is different. If you don't do this, you're gonna

488
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:43,880
Speaker 1: lose out. Trust me, I do it too. We're all

489
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: doing this. Well, he gets a call in October nineteen

490
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 1: twenty nine says you got to get down here and

491
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,119
Speaker 1: you're gonna have to pay off alone. He ends up

492
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: having a mortgage his own home to deal with it all.

493
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 1: And I think that that was sort of just a

494
00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 1: little like microcosm of a story of what was happening.

495
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 2: Everywhere little bit more about sort of the relentless unraveling,

496
00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,680
Speaker 2: if you will, Andrews, so give us a little time

497
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 2: stamp of all these events.

498
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 1: Well, I don't know how far we want to go.

499
00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 1: I mean, most of the real action happens in October

500
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 1: in terms of the market crash. However, as I said,

501
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 1: the sort of a series of dominoes. So the country

502
00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: is sort of losing its shirt. In late nineteen twenty nine,

503
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,679
Speaker 1: market starts actually coming back a little bit, but the

504
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,200
Speaker 1: economy is not really coming back. And so there's a

505
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 1: big question is what is President Hoover going to do?

506
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: What is the government going to do? Talk about bad decisions.

507
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 1: So President Hoover's Treasury secretary then was a guy named

508
00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 1: Andrew Mellon, who you may have heard of. And Andrew

509
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 1: Mellon was a true capitalist. His view was, if you

510
00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: trade and you lose, you lose. We're not helping you,

511
00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 1: we're not bailing you out, screw you. Hoover had this

512
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 1: sort of view that somehow the economy and the stock

513
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:54,879
Speaker 1: market were like separated, that they weren't really connected to

514
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,520
Speaker 1: each other, and this was almost like a psychological problem,

515
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,720
Speaker 1: and that if you could just get the country over

516
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 1: the psychological problem that somehow you'd be in a better place.

517
00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: But he also wanted to raise taxes at that time,

518
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:14,560
Speaker 1: probably not the best decision. He then decides to implement tariffs. Again,

519
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: what's happening in America today tariffs. So he implements in

520
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,400
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty something called the Smooth Holly tariffs. A year later,

521
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 1: global trade is down sixty percent and by the way,

522
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 1: same thing as now. A thousand economists wrote an open

523
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: letter to Hoover begging him not to do this. But

524
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 1: he had run on this because he wanted to get

525
00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 1: the farmers in the middle of the country to vote

526
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: for him, and he wanted to make good on his promise.

527
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 1: So there were a series of these things. But of

528
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 1: course by nineteen thirty three, even before that, I mean,

529
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 1: you started to have what's called Hooverville's were emerging. These

530
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,000
Speaker 1: were like tented camps, even including in DC. In DC,

531
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 1: also in Central Park, there were tented camps in Central

532
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: Park literally blocks away from Charles Mitchell's house. Charles Mitchell

533
00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,680
Speaker 1: lived York very well up on Fifth Avenue and seventy

534
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: fifth Streets the French Consulate. Uh huh, that was his house.

535
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: That's where he lived. They lived in these like they

536
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: were the kings. They lived in these mansions. There were castles,

537
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: but Hooverville's were emerging, and so you had this sort

538
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: of Those are sort of the series of dominoes of

539
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 1: things that really I think put the country in a very,

540
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: very tough place.

541
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 2: It's amazing when you think about the culture of the twenties.

542
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 2: Obviously in this I'm sure struck you time and time again.

543
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,719
Speaker 2: As you're writing this book, Andrew, and what we're seeing

544
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 2: today in terms of the economic climate, sort of income

545
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 2: and equality, a less a fair regulatory policy, mood, investors

546
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 2: and innovators becoming celebrities. Yes, and as I mentioned widening inequality.

547
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,719
Speaker 2: I mean, were you like, holy shit, yeah, I mean

548
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,959
Speaker 2: we are right for something like this to happen, or

549
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,719
Speaker 2: how did you square the similarities between these two periods.

550
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: I should just say straight up, when I started the project,

551
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 1: I didn't think that I was writing about to tay

552
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: like that was not really the goal. And by the way,

553
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: there's nowhere in the book, as you know, where I say, hey,

554
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 1: like this is like this right, But as I'm writing

555
00:28:07,280 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 1: the book, I would say, especially in the last couple

556
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: of years, I'd be like, oh, Okay, the tariff thing

557
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: is happening. The tariff thing is happening. This idea of

558
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,239
Speaker 1: democratizing finance is happening. It's happening. We're going to take

559
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: some of the guardrails and rules away. And you realize,

560
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: by the way, in the nineteen twenties there were no rules,

561
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: I mean literally no rules. There was no sec instead

562
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: of trading. All these stocks are being manipulated like crazy

563
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: back then. And here we are right now trying to

564
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: take these rules away, trying to take transparency away.

565
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,840
Speaker 2: The tech titans are meeting at the White House.

566
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: So many of the sort of same component parts of this.

567
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: And also I would argue even now with I don't

568
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: know if you call it a bubble, but here we

569
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: are on this sort of like Ai Revolution, feels a

570
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: little bit like the Radio Revolution. People are betting massive

571
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: quantities of money, using leverage, using debt, and it's happening

572
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: all over. And there's also this idea of the lottery ticket.

573
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 1: So right now, Trump just implemented a new law that

574
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: effectively was going to allow the venture capital guys and

575
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: the private equity guys and the private credit guys to

576
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: literally sell product to the ordinary investor for the first time.

577
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 1: This stuff's going to end up in people's retirement accounts

578
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: for the first time, like your four one K account

579
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: is now going to have access to these things which

580
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:27,280
Speaker 1: we never allowed before because we thought it was too risky.

581
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: But now we're saying it's not too risky.

582
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 2: And why is that happening. I don't quite understand that.

583
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 2: Is that also have to do with the government and

584
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 2: intel and sort of or is that a different thing.

585
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 1: I think it's a different thing. I think it's the idea,

586
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,719
Speaker 1: and this was a very nineteen twenties ish idea that

587
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,520
Speaker 1: the elites were making all of this money and that

588
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: the little guy had no access. So it is true

589
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 1: that folks who've had access to buy shares of Uber

590
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 1: or Facebook before they ever went public, they're the ones

591
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: who made a fortune. And we created laws, by the way,

592
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: after nineteen thirty three, well, we said unless you have

593
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: a million dollars, you cannot invest in these type of

594
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 1: private investments because with lib to risk you we didn't

595
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 1: want people who didn't have enough money to be able

596
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 1: to risk all of it. That was the concept. But

597
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: in a way, there's a view today that somehow we

598
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,800
Speaker 1: have not just protected them from losing money, we've protected

599
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: them from making money. And at the same time we're

600
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: sort of protecting the man. Right, So there's this sort

601
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 1: of subculture and elite that's been able to make all

602
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: this money and others haven't had access. And so what

603
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,480
Speaker 1: I think this president is trying to do is say

604
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,000
Speaker 1: we want everybody to have the lottery ticket. The thing

605
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: that I that worries me is when everybody has a

606
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: lot of ticket, most people have a lot of ticket lose.

607
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: That is the great conundrum of the lottery.

608
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 2: And the people who lose are often the people.

609
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: Who can't afford for to lose. Yes, that's exactly right.

610
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: When you look at the big picture, what do you

611
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 2: think is responsible for all these kind of big cultural

612
00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 2: and economic ships that were witnessing right now? If you

613
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,760
Speaker 2: had to put the pieces together, are they all the

614
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 2: things that I mentioned In terms of the environment we're

615
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 2: living in, what forces are colliding right now?

616
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: So I think there's a couple of things happening. Start

617
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: with the underlying issue of the human condition, which is

618
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 1: we all want more. That's not capitalism, that's just human

619
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: nature human nature. And you also have a group of people,

620
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,960
Speaker 1: financiers who have a lot of money, who've been lobbying

621
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: in Washington to allow for a lot of this to happen.

622
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 1: So Crypto, which is again another seemingly speculative kind of

623
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: thing to do, those guys basically helped bankroll President Trump's election.

624
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: They effectually paid for that access. And there are people

625
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: I do believe that the people who are behind all

626
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 1: this genuinely do believe that this is good for America,

627
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: like they do believe that at letting the ordinary American

628
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: invest in these opportunities, they call them opportunities, and they

629
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 1: think they're a good thing. And by the way, they

630
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: may turn out to be a good thing in the

631
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 1: long run if you can keep all the guardrails around them.

632
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: I think one of the great lessons of nineteen eighty

633
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,120
Speaker 1: nine was you need guardrails. People left to their own

634
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: devices will always want more. And we are not the

635
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:25,160
Speaker 1: greatest self regulators of ourselves, which.

636
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 2: Is a guardrails.

637
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: And that's the conundrum I think right now, increasingly the

638
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: guardrails are coming off. The administration recently announced a plan

639
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: where corporations public companies who used to have to report

640
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: their earnings every quarter, four times a year. The President

641
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: came out and said, you know what, you don't need

642
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 1: to do that anymore. We want you to only do

643
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: that twice a year. So again less transparency, and the

644
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: SEC looks like they're probably going to back that plan.

645
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: So I think there's just a whole bunch of these

646
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: types of things that are happening in this moment that

647
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:55,960
Speaker 1: are concerning.

648
00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 2: Let's go back to nineteen twenty nine. In the aftermath

649
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 2: following those few years there was regulation. Yes, talk about

650
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: what happened, and do you view some of the measures

651
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 2: as perhaps an over correction.

652
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: It's a great question. So one of the big things

653
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: that happened, and one of the main characters in this

654
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: book is a guy.

655
00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 2: Named carter Glass glass Stiegel though.

656
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: From Glass Stiegel. Carter Glass though, was really like the

657
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:26,200
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren of his time, maybe AOC, but more like

658
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Warren. And for many years in the nineteen twenties

659
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: he used to rail about the thing called Mitchellism in

660
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: Charlie Mitchell. He thought people at Charlie Mitchell were going

661
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: to ruin America because Charlie Mitch was loaning people his

662
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: money was going to lead to all the speculation and

663
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: up end the economy, and so there were a lot

664
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 1: of laws that were put in place by people like

665
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 1: Carter Glass, though again without giving away too much how

666
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: Glass Stiegel was actually put together. Even for me and

667
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: I think some scholars who's read the book, it's just

668
00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: like a shock. It's like completely at odds with what

669
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: you'd think really happened, sort of a wild story. And

670
00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 1: so you had that happen the creation of the SEC

671
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty four. By the way, Roosevelt course comes

672
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: into power in nineteen thirty three, he goes after some

673
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: of the bank shuts down a lot of the banks,

674
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: So there was a whole bunch of things. Is an

675
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 1: overcorrection probably to some degree, but was it too much?

676
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: I mean, the good news is we've had other financial

677
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,319
Speaker 1: crises two thousand and eight being one of them, dot

678
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,439
Speaker 1: Com bust being another. But we haven't gone totally off

679
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: the cliff for a decade or more at a time.

680
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: And the one thing I will say there was a

681
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:33,680
Speaker 1: bit of a weird lesson for me. We all think

682
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 1: speculation is like a dirty word, right, You don't want

683
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 1: too much speculation, but we all need a little bit

684
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:45,480
Speaker 1: of speculation, because speculation is like the twin of innovation,

685
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 1: like if you look at think about it, like Elon

686
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: Musk and Tesla. Somebody at some point had to speculate

687
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: on Elon Musk early on, when it seemed like an

688
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: insane thing to do. It was a complete speculation, and

689
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: you I need that in the economy for there to

690
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:04,399
Speaker 1: be innovation, otherwise we're never gonna get any of it.

691
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 1: But the question is where's the line and when does

692
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: it become too much? And when does it become too

693
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: much of a group think. I do think, by the way,

694
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,560
Speaker 1: we might be having a little bit of that. Well.

695
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you, of course, when you

696
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 2: said that, I'm thinking, Okay, the AI bubble, right, and

697
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,640
Speaker 2: what's happening now? How do you think that's playing out?

698
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: And how does it relate to some of the other disasters.

699
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: Honestly, I think the AI bubble is a bubble and

700
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 1: it will pop. But I think of it more like

701
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: the dot com bubble, which is to say, the Internet

702
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 1: came of age in the late nineties and there was

703
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: a pop, But the Internet is still here and is

704
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: more powerful and a bigger force than ever. So I

705
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 1: think something like that will probably happen with AI, meaning

706
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,280
Speaker 1: there's definitely over investment and probably investment in the wrong areas,

707
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: and so there will be some kind of come up.

708
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: And I don't think that means that AI is not

709
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 1: a thing. I think AI is probably, you know, a

710
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,880
Speaker 1: generational shift for everybody.

711
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 2: There will be a correction. Question that we.

712
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 1: Don't know this time around is if you believe that

713
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,760
Speaker 1: every financial crisis is a function of too much leverage

714
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: in the system, too much borrowing money. Right in nineteen

715
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 1: twenty nine, there's too many people borrowing for stocks. In

716
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:18,399
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, is too many people borrowing for

717
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,439
Speaker 1: subprime loans and the like. It could be that there's

718
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:25,720
Speaker 1: too much borrowing going on around these AI data centers

719
00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 1: people don't appreciate. Yes, you know, Google and Facebook, they're

720
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,880
Speaker 1: all spending hundreds of billions of dollars. But to build

721
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: these data centers, there's energy companies that are taking on

722
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 1: extraordinary amount of debt, construction companies, real estate company. I

723
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: mean there's a and that debt we can't see anymore.

724
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 1: That's actually another big thing. It used to be that

725
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: you'd get a loan from a bank and so the

726
00:36:46,640 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: system could see the debt in the system, the leverage

727
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 1: in the system. Today, it's all moved into what they

728
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: call the shadows, into this private credit business, and so

729
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 1: we don't really know what's going on. And that's a

730
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 1: little scary. And I'll give you one more little not

731
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,720
Speaker 1: to scared everybody, but you know, you're starting to see

732
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: what they called round trip deals, these like circular deals.

733
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,719
Speaker 1: Where so in Vidia and open Ai did this very

734
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,480
Speaker 1: unusual deal a couple weeks ago where open ai is

735
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 1: buying chips like crazy from Nvidia. But open Ai can't

736
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: afford to buy all the chips that it's committing to buy.

737
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,359
Speaker 1: It doesn't make money, it's losing money right now. So

738
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: what's happened. In Vidia invests money into open Ai, so

739
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:33,240
Speaker 1: they have now committed to give them a hundred billion dollars,

740
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:35,520
Speaker 1: which then they're going to take one hundred billion dollars

741
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: and buy the Nvidia chips. So it's a completely circular transaction.

742
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 1: It's like magic. And then just I think two weeks

743
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: ago now a similar deal, open Ai is going to

744
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: buy chips from AMD. Can't afford to buy the chips

745
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 1: in AMD says to itself, well, if we announce that

746
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: we're going to buy chips from AMD. AMD stock is

747
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: likely to go up, so we're going to get a

748
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: stake in AMD, and when the shares magically go up,

749
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 1: we'll now have money from those and then we'll go

750
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:06,520
Speaker 1: buy the chips.

751
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:08,719
Speaker 2: What's wrong with that, Well, it just.

752
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: Reflects that there's not a sort of underlying stability in

753
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 1: that market. You know, when you get into what's called

754
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 1: vendor financing, when the vendor basically has to finance you,

755
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: it can come back to bite you. Now, yes, if

756
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: open ai turns out to be a massive success and

757
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,400
Speaker 1: super profitable, no harm, no foul. But if it doesn't,

758
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 1: you know, the whole certain ecosystem can break. And I don't.

759
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: Right now, we're in this very weird moment in the

760
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: stock market where every time that a company announces they're

761
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: going to invest spend more money, the stock goes up,

762
00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 1: doesn't go down. It used to be. You know, if

763
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,520
Speaker 1: you fire people, stock will go up because they're gonna

764
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 1: spend less money. They're gonna invest less. Stock goes up.

765
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: This is like the opposite.

766
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 2: You say, people aren't investing in the right thing with AI,

767
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,280
Speaker 2: so I'll bite. What should I be investing? You should say.

768
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: AI investing in AI. I think the way people are

769
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: investing in AI right now is just the big shares

770
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:02,959
Speaker 1: in the big tech companies in video.

771
00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 2: And there are a lot of other smaller companies that

772
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 2: are going to be important to the whole AI environment.

773
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: Maybe, And that's another question. There's so many small startups

774
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 1: that have been coming up around this whole ecosystem. Do

775
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 1: they last? Do they not last? I don't know if

776
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: we know the answer. The other piece of this that

777
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,760
Speaker 1: we haven't got into, and maybe go back to nineteen

778
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 1: thirty three and think about this. So we had unemployment

779
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 1: in the country in nineteen thirty three of about twenty

780
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 1: five percent. It's kind of insane twenty five percent. A

781
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: quarter of people were unemployed. If AI is successful, so

782
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: if all of these AI companies for them to be successful,

783
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 1: they have to create more productivity. Companies are only going

784
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 1: to pay for these services if they create more productivity

785
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 1: for their company. Productivity is a euphemism. Dare I say

786
00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 1: for taking out cost other cost? What is the other cost?

787
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: It's human cost people. So if they shoot the moon

788
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: and this is really successful, at the same time that

789
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: the companies may seemingly be successful, there's a lot of

790
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: people who lose their job who won't be able to

791
00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 1: afford to use the services that these companies are going

792
00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: to provide.

793
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 2: Do you think anyone is thinking about that.

794
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: I think that there's a lot of people wearing blinders saying,

795
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: let's hope for the best. I think there's a lot

796
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: of hope. I don't think there's a lot of actually

797
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,440
Speaker 1: like modeled out spreadsheets that say if you do this

798
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: and this and this, it will do this. There's like

799
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 1: a lot of hope in prayer taking place right now.

800
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 1: And by the way, if you talk if you talk

801
00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:38,320
Speaker 1: to Soulten Valley today, they say, we are more scared

802
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: of being behind, and so therefore we're just going to

803
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: you know, we're putting all our chips down.

804
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 2: It's jina, jina, jina, right. That's as the President would say.

805
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 2: I feel like they are saying, we cannot lose our

806
00:40:55,360 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 2: competitiveness and unintended or obvious consequences be damned. Honestly, there's a.

807
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:05,240
Speaker 1: Truth to that. You look at some of these companies

808
00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: that they're spending basically half to maybe in some cases

809
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: more than all of their revenues. Literally, they're taking all

810
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:13,759
Speaker 1: the money and investing in AI and maybe they'll be right.

811
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 1: And by the way, as I said, I am sure

812
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: that AI will be a powerful force, huge powerful force.

813
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: On the other side of this, I just think along

814
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:22,320
Speaker 1: the way there will be a hiccup. And the question

815
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 1: is how big is the hiccup?

816
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 2: Kind of like globalization, Like nobody really thought about the

817
00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 2: long term impact of a flatter world, as Tom Friedman

818
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,760
Speaker 2: would say, and this is kind of that on steroids, right.

819
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: It could turn out to be.

820
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, isn't that when the government is supposed to come

821
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 2: in and say, whoa, everybody, let's kind of talk about

822
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 2: the impact of this technology and let's plan for Yes.

823
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 1: That's what the government is supposed to do. Having said that,

824
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,800
Speaker 1: we have both a broken government and we're in a rush.

825
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 1: It's a combination of two things. It's that the government clearly,

826
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: at least in this moment, I don't think you're gonna

827
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: have both sides talking on these issues. And the other

828
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 1: piece was is and they're not wrong in this respect.

829
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 1: If life is relative, you do need to care what

830
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:14,760
Speaker 1: the competitors doing, and that is China. And if China

831
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: is going full steam ahead and they're throwing all their

832
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 1: chips down. Maybe at least the argument goes we have

833
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,520
Speaker 1: to otherwise we lose, and that there's like a permanence

834
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: to the loss. Right, that's the issue. I think you

835
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:35,280
Speaker 1: could do a lot of what we're doing marginally slower

836
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: without ultimately losing the game. I think we are still

837
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,760
Speaker 1: ahead of the game relative to China, and I think

838
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: you could say, what does that mean in practice? I

839
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 1: think from a regulatory standpoint, instead of sort of opening

840
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: up all these new avenues for everybody to just throw

841
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 1: money at the problem, I think you probably do that

842
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,879
Speaker 1: part in a slower and more methodical way then we're

843
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 1: doing it. And I don't think that would slow an

844
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 1: open AI or a Microsoft or a Google down that much.

845
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 2: And that would give a chance for some of these

846
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 2: other considerations to be the.

847
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: Bigger considerations about employment and about the yeah no, right,

848
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 1: really get talking to really get into like what's going

849
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 1: to happen with employment. I don't know what you're supposed

850
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 1: to do because or.

851
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 2: What's going to happen to our way of life? And

852
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 2: should there be universal basic income?

853
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: And how I think we need to be having those conversations.

854
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 1: People are probably not. I mean, you've been having some

855
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:33,000
Speaker 1: of those conversations. Others have had those conversations, but it's

856
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: not like a active conversation in part because we don't know.

857
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 1: So that's the other piece of this. We don't really know.

858
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,399
Speaker 1: And is it going to be a transitional period where

859
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 1: we're gonna have to set like transition from one thing

860
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: to another and that's going to be painful. But on

861
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 1: the other side of the transition, we all figure it

862
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:51,479
Speaker 1: out and everybody learns how to use AI, and.

863
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 2: Or there will be a robot or there'd be a robot.

864
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: Apocalypse second and people will be listening to this podcast

865
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: and we will be holograms like that exactly.

866
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 2: We should put this conversation in a time capsule.

867
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: I mean, the craziest thing. I don't know if you've

868
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,440
Speaker 1: played with like notebook LAM or any of these models.

869
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 2: Yes, I actually just learned how to do that.

870
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,840
Speaker 1: So you know, you can create a podcast. I have

871
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: a son who now takes material from the Internet that

872
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: he has to learn, puts it into these models, puts

873
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,360
Speaker 1: his headphones on, and goes for a walk and listens

874
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:27,439
Speaker 1: to a effectively a AI generated podcast to teach him

875
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,959
Speaker 1: about some of the classes that he's trying to learn.

876
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 1: There's part of me that thinks that's super exciting. By

877
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: the way, it's like a great it's like a very

878
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 1: cool thing. But it often, or I don't know if

879
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 1: it's often ultimately probably means we won't have as many teachers.

880
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:45,319
Speaker 1: And what are those people? I mean, I don't know.

881
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 1: I don't know what we're I don't know where this

882
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:47,440
Speaker 1: all heads.

883
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 2: I just think we should be thinking about it some

884
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:53,479
Speaker 2: more and hypothesizing about it some more, so.

885
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: That we're we have a better position to at least

886
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 1: have thought about the debate when it actually hits us. Yes, yes,

887
00:44:59,360 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 1: I'm with you. Think about financial crisis in two thousand

888
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 1: and eight. I remember people two thousand and three and four,

889
00:45:05,360 --> 00:45:07,080
Speaker 1: people say, oh, I think there's a real estate bubble

890
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,400
Speaker 1: going on. Remember, yeah, you know, I'm not going to

891
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:11,319
Speaker 1: buy a house this year. I'm gonna wait. It's gonna

892
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 1: fall next year, so I'm just going to wait. In

893
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 1: the next year, you'd read a big article cover article

894
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 1: about how there's a real estate bubbies. No, I actually

895
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,919
Speaker 1: wait another year. But you wait and then it keeps

896
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:23,359
Speaker 1: going up, and then you say yourself, Okay, the train

897
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: is leaving the station.

898
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:24,840
Speaker 2: I better get it.

899
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:26,000
Speaker 1: I got you to get it on the chair. I'm

900
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:27,439
Speaker 1: never gonna be able to get on this train. Of course,

901
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 1: everyone jumps on the train right before it's about to

902
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 1: curl off the track.

903
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,399
Speaker 2: Hi everyone, it's me Katie Couric. You know, if you've

904
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: been following me on social media, you know I love

905
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,400
Speaker 2: to cook, or at least try, especially alongside some of

906
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 2: my favorite chefs and foodies like Benny Blanco, Jake Cohen,

907
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 2: Lighty Hoyke, Alison Roman, and Ina Garten. So I started

908
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 2: a free newsletter called good Taste to share recipes, tips

909
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 2: and kitchen muscle asks. Just sign up at Katiecouric dot

910
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 2: com slash good Taste. That's k A t I E

911
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 2: c o U r ic dot com slash good Taste.

912
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 2: I promised your taste buds will be happy you did.

913
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 2: Before we talk about today, because I want to ask

914
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 2: you some things about President Trump. I do want to

915
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 2: go back for a moment to talk about FDR and

916
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 2: his role in all of this, because I admire I

917
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:39,719
Speaker 2: stan FDR in modern day parlance, and I thought it

918
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 2: was really interesting what you wrote about him. You said

919
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:47,560
Speaker 2: that even though handling the economy wasn't actually Roosevelt's strength.

920
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 1: It was not his things.

921
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 2: Somehow Americans grew to trust him anyway, and as a

922
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 2: whole world fell apart, the United States fed off his

923
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:59,319
Speaker 2: abundant confidence. People were desperate to believe in something. And

924
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 2: then you add, certainly didn't believe in money anymore.

925
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:02,840
Speaker 1: That's true.

926
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 2: So just tell me what I don't know about FDR.

927
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 1: FDR. I don't want to say FDR was Trumpian, but

928
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: FDR was kind of Trumpian. I mean, I think that

929
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: people there were people who just were believers, They really believed.

930
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 1: I don't think that anybody would have told you that

931
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: somehow FDR was some kind of you know, financial genius

932
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:24,440
Speaker 1: or guru who understood how to deal with the economy.

933
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: I think he saw a mess. It was a mess.

934
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: I think he got a little bit lucky in terms

935
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:32,800
Speaker 1: of the timing of when he came in and the fact, frankly,

936
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: that Hoover didn't make certain decisions he probably should have

937
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: or could have in the year or two before Roosevelt arrived,

938
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: and the country was sort of so psychologically damaged that

939
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,720
Speaker 1: they just wanted, they like, almost willed certain things to happen.

940
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: And then of course the New Deal comes around. But

941
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:55,879
Speaker 1: that was not like an economic plan really initially it was.

942
00:47:55,920 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 1: There was so many other social aspects to what he

943
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 1: was trying to do. But it all happened to work

944
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 1: and so and then of course World War two comes

945
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: along and that helps economically too. So there's there's a

946
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 1: whole bunch of things that I think we give Roosevelt

947
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,479
Speaker 1: a lot of credit. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve.

948
00:48:12,520 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 1: It happened on his watch, but I'm not sure it

949
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 1: happened because he was the messiah when it comes to

950
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: economic activity.

951
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:26,600
Speaker 2: Speaking of messiahs or lack thereof, let's talk about Donald

952
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 2: Trump and his economic plans. Yes, just thirty seven percent

953
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:34,240
Speaker 2: of US adults approve of his handling of the economy,

954
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 2: according to a recent APRC Center for Public Affairs poll.

955
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 2: What do you make of that number, given that so

956
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:45,839
Speaker 2: many people look to him as a businessman, an all

957
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:49,040
Speaker 2: knowing businessman, to set the economy straight.

958
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:54,000
Speaker 1: So this to me is a complicated question, and more

959
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 1: complicated maybe than you'd think. I don't know. The economy

960
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 1: seems to be doing shockingly well, at least on the surface. Now,

961
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:05,560
Speaker 1: I would argue one of the reasons for that is

962
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 1: this AI bubble. I think if you would actually take

963
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 1: the AI investment piece out of it and look at

964
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 1: the rest of the economy, you'd say, actually, kind of

965
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: lowsy or not so great. And then you throw on

966
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:19,880
Speaker 1: the tariff piece that he's put in place, and you

967
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 1: say to yourself, Okay, that is creating more of a

968
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 1: slowdown than we give it credit for. Because AI is

969
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 1: powering so much of it. I think it's masking a

970
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: lot of the other things that are happening in the economy.

971
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 2: Are you talking about the stock market or the.

972
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,359
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the overall economy. So when I say

973
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 1: AI bubble, people think, oh, AI bubble is like the

974
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: Nvidia stock That's not what's happening here. The AI bubble

975
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: is impacting the entire economy. So what's happening is companies

976
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:54,239
Speaker 1: are spending hundreds of billions of dollars. Those hundreds of

977
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:56,720
Speaker 1: billions of dollars are being used to build a data

978
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,919
Speaker 1: center or data centers all over. What does that mean?

979
00:50:00,160 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 1: Someone has to buy new real estate, they have to

980
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:05,359
Speaker 1: go construct the data center. They have to create new

981
00:50:05,480 --> 00:50:09,319
Speaker 1: forms of energy. So the energy companies, the electricians, the

982
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:12,600
Speaker 1: construction guide. I mean this is huge amounts, and obviously

983
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:16,080
Speaker 1: the chip makers. There's so many pieces of the economy

984
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 1: where people are getting jobs now.

985
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 2: And what about companies too that have to hire people

986
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 2: to help understand how AI is going to impact their business.

987
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 2: Is that contributing to it as well?

988
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's a little bit of that happening.

989
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:29,560
Speaker 1: I think the truth is more people who lose their

990
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 1: job in the short term from AI than the new

991
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: people that are actually coming on bubble transform to transform

992
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 1: the stuff. And the truth is a lot of this

993
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 1: is a sugar high. So I would say, are we

994
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,280
Speaker 1: in like a gold rush or a sugar rush? Because

995
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 1: you know you're going to build the data center, which

996
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 1: could each data centers can take hundreds of people to build,

997
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 1: but once the data center is built, it could take

998
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 1: five or ten people to manage the data center. It's

999
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:56,080
Speaker 1: not like it requires thousands of people.

1000
00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 2: So even if this is a bubble though, Andrew, why

1001
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 2: do just thirty seven percent of people approve of his

1002
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 2: handling of the economy.

1003
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,919
Speaker 1: I think costs are going up. It feels like things

1004
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 1: are still more expensive. I think that's true to some extent, though,

1005
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 1: by the way, to his credit, there's certain things that

1006
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 1: are cheaper than they used to be, and other things

1007
00:51:13,760 --> 00:51:16,319
Speaker 1: that are more expensive than they used to be. I

1008
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: think people are just anxious and worried about, you know,

1009
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,399
Speaker 1: where we really are. And I think that in the

1010
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 1: areas where he said that he was going to make

1011
00:51:27,040 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 1: big changes, this is in the industrial you know, russ

1012
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 1: belt of America. I don't think you've actually seen the

1013
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 1: real changes. But we also haven't talked about like immigration

1014
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,799
Speaker 1: is a big issue. If you don't have immigrants, that's

1015
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 1: a problem. There's a lot of sort of economic forces

1016
00:51:41,080 --> 00:51:44,760
Speaker 1: at play here between tariffs and immigration and everything else

1017
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: that I think we have to be thinking about. Having

1018
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 1: said that, one of the biggest shifts in this whole conversation,

1019
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:56,319
Speaker 1: and the President has made it such, is they're now

1020
00:51:56,360 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 1: tying tariffs to national security. And that's a very interesting concept,

1021
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:04,879
Speaker 1: by the way, that's the concept we were not talking

1022
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: about in nineteen twenty nine.

1023
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:08,799
Speaker 2: Interesting or scary, I don't know.

1024
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. If we didn't have tariffs on cars

1025
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 1: in America. There's a company called byd in China that

1026
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:20,839
Speaker 1: can make the cars better and cheaper than any car

1027
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,760
Speaker 1: that's made here. We would have no automobile industry at all.

1028
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:26,920
Speaker 1: You wouldn't make it a car here, just wouldn't happen.

1029
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,840
Speaker 1: Is that okay? Is that acceptable that there would be

1030
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 1: no automobile industry if there was ever a problem where

1031
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,840
Speaker 1: you couldn't get access to cars in China? Would that

1032
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:39,480
Speaker 1: be a problem. I think we did learn during the

1033
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: pandemic that you do need some form of resilience around drugs,

1034
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 1: around masks, around potentially cars and parts and all sorts

1035
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 1: of things. So I think there's this very interesting question

1036
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 1: that we all have to resolve, which is, yes, we

1037
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 1: could get the cheaper product from other places and we

1038
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:00,160
Speaker 1: could become a complete services economy, sort of like what

1039
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 1: the UK did, or we could decide that we actually

1040
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 1: need to be making these products here, and if we're

1041
00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 1: going to make these products here, then we got to

1042
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 1: figure out how.

1043
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:08,959
Speaker 2: We're going to do that, and how we're going to compete.

1044
00:53:08,760 --> 00:53:11,280
Speaker 1: And how we'd compete. I think we're not going to compete,

1045
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:13,080
Speaker 1: by the way, that's the other thing. So all these

1046
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 1: tariffs are going to mean we're not going to compete.

1047
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:16,919
Speaker 1: It is likely the ten years from now, I'm talking

1048
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:18,960
Speaker 1: to the CEO of a big auto company. Ten years

1049
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:23,760
Speaker 1: from now, we will pay more for lousier cars in America,

1050
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:26,720
Speaker 1: then most people will be able to get in other places.

1051
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:30,160
Speaker 1: You'll go on vacation to Europe or to Asia or

1052
00:53:30,200 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 1: somewhere like that, and you will sit in the back

1053
00:53:32,360 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 1: of a car and think, Wow, this is pretty great.

1054
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 1: We don't have things like this, or we have things

1055
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 1: like this, but they cost so much that nobody has them.

1056
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 2: And do you think Americans can tolerate pay more for

1057
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 2: crummy products?

1058
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 1: That's the fundamental question, or less.

1059
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:47,720
Speaker 2: Less good products. I shouldn't say.

1060
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: We don't really like to pay more for things that

1061
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:52,359
Speaker 1: say made in America. Most people don't. Most people don't

1062
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,359
Speaker 1: seem to care. See the little sticker in the back

1063
00:53:55,360 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 1: it says man China made in America. Nobody seems to really.

1064
00:53:58,920 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 2: Just give me the I want and give me the

1065
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 2: best problem to pay too much, and I.

1066
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:04,920
Speaker 1: Don't want to pay too much. And I think we

1067
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:06,760
Speaker 1: as a country sort of have to come to grips

1068
00:54:06,760 --> 00:54:07,680
Speaker 1: with what that means.

1069
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 2: And we could talk about like wire cars so much

1070
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:13,760
Speaker 2: more expensive and lower quality in this country versus China,

1071
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,719
Speaker 2: right because we pay people to make them.

1072
00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:18,800
Speaker 1: Because we pay people to make them, that's a huge

1073
00:54:18,840 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 1: part of it we pay people to make them, and

1074
00:54:20,680 --> 00:54:22,279
Speaker 1: so we have decided do we want to pay people

1075
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:23,959
Speaker 1: to make them? I mean, these are all of that.

1076
00:54:24,000 --> 00:54:26,040
Speaker 2: Are we going to even need people making them in

1077
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 2: the era of AI?

1078
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 1: We may not because the robots may ultimately make them.

1079
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 2: My head is exploding.

1080
00:54:32,560 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's tough stuff.

1081
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 2: How would you characterize Trump's economic philosophy? I wanted to

1082
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 2: ask Condy Rice. Andrew and I were at a conference

1083
00:54:41,120 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 2: recently and Kandy Rice was there. I wanted to have

1084
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:49,839
Speaker 2: her characterize Trump's foreign policy philosophy. Unfortunately I didn't get

1085
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,200
Speaker 2: to ask her the question. So let me ask you,

1086
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 2: how would you describe his economic philosophy? It seems all

1087
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:57,720
Speaker 2: over the place.

1088
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:01,360
Speaker 1: I think there's actually one through line everything the man does,

1089
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:06,759
Speaker 1: which is he wants leverage over everyone, everyone, over people,

1090
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 1: over countries. Where can he find the leverage? Where is

1091
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:13,600
Speaker 1: the leverage point that he will have over somebody else?

1092
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:19,800
Speaker 1: That is the entirety of the strategy. He went after

1093
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 1: the universities, for example, and said I'm going to take

1094
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 1: your money away for science and other things. He looked

1095
00:55:25,360 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 1: and said, I don't like the DEI policies at universities.

1096
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 1: Do I have any leverage with these people. Well I do. Actually,

1097
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 1: if I take their science money away right.

1098
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 2: Now, they're federal funding for all those schools, or.

1099
00:55:36,680 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 1: They're federal funding away. Do I have leverage over China?

1100
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 1: Do I have leverage over Europe? Do I have? You know,

1101
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 1: I don't like the way Europe's treating American companies. Well

1102
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: maybe if I have they need? What do I have

1103
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:51,319
Speaker 1: that they need? And can I put the screws to them?

1104
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:53,040
Speaker 1: And if I put the screws to them, will they

1105
00:55:53,040 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 1: then do what I want? That is the strategy.

1106
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 2: I'm clary aboard. As someone who knows the economy like

1107
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 2: the back of it hand. What are the pitfalls of

1108
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 2: running a country that way?

1109
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:07,880
Speaker 1: Well, it depends. This is a very interesting question. Depends

1110
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:11,319
Speaker 1: how mercenary you think the world really is. So I

1111
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:13,719
Speaker 1: think for the last fifty years, we've actually thought that

1112
00:56:13,760 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 1: we could be a role model for the world, and

1113
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 1: that we wanted people to like us, and we did

1114
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 1: lots of things to make people like us. We let

1115
00:56:22,239 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 1: our most of our economy be open, We tried to

1116
00:56:26,160 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 1: share our prosperity with others. We oftentimes were donating money

1117
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 1: to other countries and bailing them out, and doing all

1118
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 1: sorts of things, and the question is did that help

1119
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 1: us or not. He believes it did not help us.

1120
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: He believes we had no leverage over these people and

1121
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:44,359
Speaker 1: that they took advantage of us.

1122
00:56:44,440 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 2: I was going to say that we got screwed, that.

1123
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:48,440
Speaker 1: We got screwed. I think it's hard to say we

1124
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 1: got screwed because I think the truth is we are

1125
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:54,399
Speaker 1: still this great Shanning Hill city, a city on a hill,

1126
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 1: thank you. We could also be a hill. Yeah, And

1127
00:56:57,560 --> 00:56:59,640
Speaker 1: I think we probably did get screwed in certain things,

1128
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:01,720
Speaker 1: but I think think on the whole we've done pretty

1129
00:57:01,719 --> 00:57:03,200
Speaker 1: well doing it this way.

1130
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 2: And then this desire to have leverage on everyone, Let's

1131
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:11,840
Speaker 2: face it, it can also be very alienating to countries

1132
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:13,560
Speaker 2: when we need them, right.

1133
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:15,120
Speaker 1: Well, that's going to be the big question when we

1134
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 1: actually need them, what's going to happen? And I don't

1135
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 1: think we know the answer. There's so many things where

1136
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 1: this president is just shifting and changing the way we've

1137
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 1: done things. Taking stakes in companies.

1138
00:57:26,200 --> 00:57:28,320
Speaker 2: Well, I wanted to ask you about that. Can you

1139
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 2: talk about the government taking a ten percent interest and

1140
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 2: intell because it is so unprecedented and explain it to me.

1141
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 2: Somebody who doesn't really understand the economy that well, how

1142
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 2: this is so needless to say unconventional.

1143
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:49,240
Speaker 1: Okay, So historically we claimed we had a free market,

1144
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:52,560
Speaker 1: and the free market was such that companies could succeed,

1145
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 1: they could fail, and the government was not an investor

1146
00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 1: or playing a real role in this. Maybe they were playing.

1147
00:58:00,000 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 2: We did bail out companies.

1148
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 1: We have bailed out companies, but typically there was a

1149
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 1: serious crisis. It was a crisis, and the reason for

1150
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:09,160
Speaker 1: bailing them in two thousand and eight was we believe

1151
00:58:09,200 --> 00:58:10,800
Speaker 1: that if we didn't bail them out, it was going

1152
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:14,160
Speaker 1: to have a wider effect on the economy. So here

1153
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:19,120
Speaker 1: we are, Intel is struggling. We've decided, as a country,

1154
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 1: or at least this president has decided that chips and

1155
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 1: making chips in America is a super important thing to

1156
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:28,600
Speaker 1: do for national security reasons. Most of our chips are

1157
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:30,439
Speaker 1: not made in America. We need to start making chips

1158
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 1: in America. The Biden administration had given money to Intel

1159
00:58:35,080 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 1: as a grant, said here's the money. We're not asking

1160
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 1: for anything in return. What we're getting in return is

1161
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 1: we'll have national security and we'll have more resilience because

1162
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:44,800
Speaker 1: chips will be made here, but we're not asking for

1163
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:48,920
Speaker 1: anything else. Handing you the money, Intel, to be honest,

1164
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 1: became a mess. It was probably a bad investment in

1165
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:56,960
Speaker 1: Intel to start with, and became an even bigger problem.

1166
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:01,560
Speaker 1: Intel needed more money, more money, but needed this sort

1167
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:03,120
Speaker 1: of the next tranch of the money that they were

1168
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 1: going to get, and this president said, you know what

1169
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:09,000
Speaker 1: this whole thing is, so screwball. I want more. If

1170
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:10,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to give you all this money, and instead

1171
00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 1: of granting you the money.

1172
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,440
Speaker 2: Just so you could have it, what's in it for me?

1173
00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:16,400
Speaker 1: What's in it for me? I want a piece of

1174
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 1: the action, and I want the taxpayer to have a

1175
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:20,200
Speaker 1: piece of the action. So if Intel is going to

1176
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 1: do better over time, I want them to be able

1177
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:25,040
Speaker 1: to have shares in the company. And if they do worse,

1178
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 1: by the way, we'll also lose our shares too. That's

1179
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 1: the conceit of what happens. The problem with doing something

1180
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 1: like this, in my mind, is it changes the dynamic.

1181
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:41,240
Speaker 1: Once the government becomes an investor in companies plural. So

1182
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:44,960
Speaker 1: let's say Intel in the future wants to merge with

1183
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 1: another company, and normally whatever that merger is a regulator

1184
00:59:49,640 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 1: might say, you know what, this seems like really bad

1185
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:54,400
Speaker 1: for customers. We don't want two of these big guys

1186
00:59:54,440 --> 00:59:58,120
Speaker 1: getting together like this. Well, how does that dynamic in

1187
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:02,200
Speaker 1: that conversation change when you say to yourself, we actually

1188
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 1: own ten percent of this company, and if we do this,

1189
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:07,640
Speaker 1: we will do a lot, but taxpayer will do a lot.

1190
01:00:07,680 --> 01:00:11,120
Speaker 1: But customers make get screwed. But the taxpayers, the US

1191
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 1: government that owns this will do better. So all of

1192
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 1: a sudden, it's sort of.

1193
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 2: We're seeing it with these mergers of media companies that

1194
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 2: play out in a different way. Die way.

1195
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:21,480
Speaker 1: It just changes the whole dynamic with which how everything

1196
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 1: gets played out, and it becomes political.

1197
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:26,400
Speaker 2: So do you see this happening more and more? Is

1198
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 2: this kind of a one off thase?

1199
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:30,120
Speaker 1: No, Well, you're having it happen right now with rare earths,

1200
01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 1: these rare earth companies, which again we may need rare

1201
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 1: earths in this country to have great success. Should those

1202
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:41,960
Speaker 1: be independent businesses? Should the government effectively subsidize them, If

1203
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:44,880
Speaker 1: they do subsidize them, should they get money? I have

1204
01:00:44,920 --> 01:00:46,560
Speaker 1: one for you, And actually, because I think about this,

1205
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 1: and I actually do think it's a very interesting one.

1206
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 1: So One of the things that the Trump administration wants

1207
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 1: to do is right now, the US government gives grants

1208
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:57,880
Speaker 1: to universities all the time, and scientists use that grant

1209
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 1: money and they make amazing discovers inventions, and the profits

1210
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 1: of those inventions and the patents for those inventions typically

1211
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 1: go to the scientist and the university that's behind them. Now,

1212
01:01:13,920 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 1: the money that was used to pay the scientist and

1213
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:20,360
Speaker 1: the university came from you, Katie Kirk, and me and

1214
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:23,600
Speaker 1: everybody in this room and who's listening and watching, because

1215
01:01:23,600 --> 01:01:27,960
Speaker 1: we're the taxpayers. Historically, we have never gotten anything. We

1216
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:30,040
Speaker 1: have had no stake in it. What we've gotten is

1217
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 1: the invention. We've decided that the invention, unto itself is

1218
01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 1: the benefit for our society. Right, should we, like an investor,

1219
01:01:39,640 --> 01:01:43,880
Speaker 1: would get a stake in the patent because that's the

1220
01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 1: next place this is all going. They're going to go

1221
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:49,440
Speaker 1: to the universities and say, look, you want this grant money. Great,

1222
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:52,800
Speaker 1: if you have a great success creating crisper or the

1223
01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:56,200
Speaker 1: next great drug, the US taxpayer should get a little

1224
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:58,480
Speaker 1: bit of that money. And you would look at that

1225
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:00,920
Speaker 1: and also in the context and say, oh, this government

1226
01:02:01,200 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 1: we as a country are overspending and not taking enough revenue.

1227
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 1: You have to figure out new ways to get revenue.

1228
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:09,800
Speaker 1: That would be one way to do it. Is that good?

1229
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 1: Is that bad? The science community will tell you it's horrible.

1230
01:02:13,360 --> 01:02:16,960
Speaker 2: Why, I know, why would the science community be so against.

1231
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:20,600
Speaker 1: That, Because they would say that they deserve the fruits

1232
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:23,600
Speaker 1: of their labor and that these are non inventions of

1233
01:02:23,680 --> 01:02:26,840
Speaker 1: the taxpayer, and that the American public is getting a

1234
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 1: great benefit.

1235
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 2: Because it's life saving work.

1236
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:33,120
Speaker 1: Because it's life saving work, what do you think? I

1237
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,600
Speaker 1: have totally mixed views of it. I don't know. I

1238
01:02:35,640 --> 01:02:37,800
Speaker 1: don't know if we said we want ten percent of

1239
01:02:37,800 --> 01:02:42,439
Speaker 1: the action, whether that would change the dynamic with which

1240
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 1: the universities would do this work, whether the professors a

1241
01:02:46,160 --> 01:02:47,760
Speaker 1: scientists would not do this work or do.

1242
01:02:47,720 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 2: It different to a different country.

1243
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 1: I don't know that.

1244
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:52,600
Speaker 2: I mean, right now they're not getting the funding, so

1245
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 2: it's kind of a moot point.

1246
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:57,920
Speaker 1: Philosophically, it's a very interesting concept. And irrespective whether you

1247
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:00,360
Speaker 1: think President Trump is a good president or a bad president,

1248
01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:03,320
Speaker 1: these are some of the ideas that he's throwing around,

1249
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:07,360
Speaker 1: some of which I think at least merit A conversation

1250
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:10,240
Speaker 1: about saying Okay, maybe this is good, maybe this is bad.

1251
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:13,680
Speaker 2: What about his view of the Federal Reserve. I mean,

1252
01:03:13,680 --> 01:03:17,240
Speaker 2: it's very different. It's been a core guard rail for

1253
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 2: decades and now he's pressuring as you know. I mean

1254
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 2: you probably talk about this every morning, Andrew Jerome Pile

1255
01:03:24,360 --> 01:03:29,200
Speaker 2: trying to ausk Governor Lisa Cook talk about the threats

1256
01:03:29,320 --> 01:03:32,440
Speaker 2: to the Fed's independence. This is a different way of

1257
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:35,360
Speaker 2: looking at the Federal Reserve. Should it be an arm

1258
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:38,720
Speaker 2: of the executive branch or should it be independent?

1259
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:41,360
Speaker 1: This I have a much stronger view about. I think

1260
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:43,960
Speaker 1: politics has to stay very very far away from the

1261
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:45,800
Speaker 1: Federal Reserve. And by the way, to bring it back

1262
01:03:46,040 --> 01:03:48,600
Speaker 1: oddly to nineteen twenty nine, one of the reasons that

1263
01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:50,640
Speaker 1: the Federal Reserve didn't do what it probably should have

1264
01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:52,880
Speaker 1: done in nineteen twenty nine, which is raise interest rates

1265
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:56,280
Speaker 1: in a material way, was because they were worried about

1266
01:03:56,280 --> 01:03:58,160
Speaker 1: the politics of it. They were worried about the optics

1267
01:03:58,160 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 1: of it. The Federal Reserve was a entity started in

1268
01:04:01,360 --> 01:04:04,000
Speaker 1: nineteen thirteen, and these guys thought, you know, what if

1269
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:06,520
Speaker 1: we do something that damages the economy, meaning we like

1270
01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:08,560
Speaker 1: try to clamp down on all of this, we're gonna

1271
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:10,439
Speaker 1: get hauled up in front of Congress. We may lose

1272
01:04:10,440 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 1: our jobs, but not just that. The Federal Reserve may disappear.

1273
01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:14,920
Speaker 1: Now it's been around for a while, so people think

1274
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:17,240
Speaker 1: it's supposed to be here. That was not the case

1275
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:21,520
Speaker 1: back then. You do not want political pressure on the

1276
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:23,840
Speaker 1: folks operating the Federal Reserve. You want them to be

1277
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:28,520
Speaker 1: making a decision based on the math. Frankly, and the

1278
01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 1: second you think politics gets involved. At some point, I

1279
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:37,040
Speaker 1: would imagine that investors around the world to invest and

1280
01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:40,080
Speaker 1: buy treasuries in America would say to themselves, do you

1281
01:04:40,120 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 1: know what right now? I pay X percent for the

1282
01:04:43,600 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 1: bond and you have to give me this kind of

1283
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:48,440
Speaker 1: premium because I trust you. But if you're going to

1284
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:50,800
Speaker 1: politicize all of this and I don't know what you're doing,

1285
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to charge you more. And if they charge

1286
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:55,280
Speaker 1: you more, it's going to cost.

1287
01:04:55,120 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 2: All of us. So the impact would be.

1288
01:04:59,600 --> 01:05:02,800
Speaker 1: Our day at the US debt would ultimately cost more,

1289
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:05,960
Speaker 1: and that would be a problem because we don't have

1290
01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:07,840
Speaker 1: enough money to pay our debt as it is.

1291
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:13,040
Speaker 2: Donald Trump has I think, kind of reimagined the presidency

1292
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:15,880
Speaker 2: to say the least and I'm just curious with everyone

1293
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:20,600
Speaker 2: you talk to every day about very complicated topics. And

1294
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:23,480
Speaker 2: I know your focus is on the economy and finances,

1295
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:26,120
Speaker 2: but when you look at what has gone on, Andrew,

1296
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 2: I'm asking for a friend, Yeah, and asking a friend

1297
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:33,600
Speaker 2: from the time he went into office to now and

1298
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:37,040
Speaker 2: plans and you hear things like plenary authority and things

1299
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 2: like that uttered by Stephen Miller, and this unprecedented power

1300
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 2: of the executive branch. As somebody who's covered so many

1301
01:05:45,880 --> 01:05:50,680
Speaker 2: administrations on a scale of one to ten, yeah, how

1302
01:05:50,720 --> 01:05:52,640
Speaker 2: concerned are you for the country?

1303
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:57,520
Speaker 1: Seven? Seven? Because and let me tell you why I

1304
01:05:57,560 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 1: think you might be ten. I don't know.

1305
01:06:00,160 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm a little higher than seven. I don't think.

1306
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 2: I don't know if I'm ten now, but maybe.

1307
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:06,439
Speaker 1: But I'm going to tell you the thing that I

1308
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:09,840
Speaker 1: grapple with. Okay, So there are things that this president

1309
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:13,000
Speaker 1: does that I think are completely unusual and problematic. And

1310
01:06:13,040 --> 01:06:17,000
Speaker 1: I worry about democracy. And I see the indictment of Komi,

1311
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:20,760
Speaker 1: for example, and I Chis James, and that is to me,

1312
01:06:21,320 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 1: at least from the outside, feels like a weaponization of

1313
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:28,880
Speaker 1: the system in a very bad way. And then I

1314
01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 1: see this deal that was just made between Israel and Amas,

1315
01:06:35,480 --> 01:06:40,080
Speaker 1: which seems almost unthinkable, by the way, during the Biden administration, unthinkable,

1316
01:06:41,360 --> 01:06:45,880
Speaker 1: and potentially, if lasting, could have a huge impact on

1317
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:48,960
Speaker 1: peace in the Middle least, if that is true. And

1318
01:06:49,120 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 1: trying to balance and wave these things against each other

1319
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 1: are harder for me than you'd think. And so I'm

1320
01:06:56,280 --> 01:06:59,280
Speaker 1: not ready to wave my hand and say it's all awful.

1321
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:02,440
Speaker 1: And I'm definitely not ready to say it's all fabulous.

1322
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:06,680
Speaker 2: You're ready to say you have mixed feelings.

1323
01:07:07,120 --> 01:07:07,920
Speaker 1: I'm out of seven.

1324
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:12,280
Speaker 2: Well, the book is called nineteen twenty nine Inside the

1325
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:15,320
Speaker 2: Greatest Crash in Wall Street History and how it shattered

1326
01:07:15,560 --> 01:07:19,120
Speaker 2: a nation. It is going to make a great dramatic

1327
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 2: series for someone somewhere because the characters are so fascinating,

1328
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:27,120
Speaker 2: and I think part of it, I mean a big

1329
01:07:27,160 --> 01:07:29,680
Speaker 2: part of it, Andrew, is because you write it like

1330
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:33,320
Speaker 2: a thriller, and it is so dramatic and the characters

1331
01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 2: are so interesting that they jump off the page. And

1332
01:07:37,200 --> 01:07:39,360
Speaker 2: I hope everyone buys it and.

1333
01:07:39,160 --> 01:07:40,640
Speaker 1: From our lips than you give.

1334
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:43,240
Speaker 2: And I love talking to you. Thank you so much

1335
01:07:43,280 --> 01:07:43,960
Speaker 2: for coming in.

1336
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 1: I appreciate it.

1337
01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:49,800
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. Everyone. If you have a question for me,

1338
01:07:50,200 --> 01:07:52,680
Speaker 2: a subject you want us to cover, or you want

1339
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:56,080
Speaker 2: to share your thoughts about how you navigate this crazy world,

1340
01:07:56,440 --> 01:07:59,640
Speaker 2: reach out send me a DM on Instagram. I would

1341
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:02,760
Speaker 2: love to hear from you. Next Question is a production

1342
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:07,360
Speaker 2: of iHeartMedia and Katiekuric Media. The executive producers are Me,

1343
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 2: Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. Our supervising producer is Ryan Martz,

1344
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:17,679
Speaker 2: and our producers are Adriana Fazzio and Meredith Barnes. Julian

1345
01:08:17,760 --> 01:08:22,880
Speaker 2: Weller composed our theme music. For more information about today's episode,

1346
01:08:23,040 --> 01:08:25,439
Speaker 2: or to sign up for my newsletter, wake Up Call,

1347
01:08:25,880 --> 01:08:28,800
Speaker 2: go to the description in the podcast app, or visit

1348
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:32,080
Speaker 2: us at Katiecuric dot com. You can also find me

1349
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:35,880
Speaker 2: on Instagram and all my social media channels. For more

1350
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:41,240
Speaker 2: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1351
01:08:41,280 --> 01:08:47,080
Speaker 2: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hi everyone, it's Katiekuric.

1352
01:08:47,400 --> 01:08:49,760
Speaker 2: You know I'm always on the go between running my

1353
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:54,320
Speaker 2: media company, hosting my podcast, and of course covering the news.

1354
01:08:54,760 --> 01:08:57,040
Speaker 2: And I know that to keep doing what I love,

1355
01:08:57,439 --> 01:08:59,719
Speaker 2: I need to start caring for what gets me there

1356
01:09:00,360 --> 01:09:03,599
Speaker 2: my feet. That's why I decided to try the Good

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Speaker 2: Feet store's personalized arch support system. I met with a

1358
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1359
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:14,960
Speaker 2: I left the store with my three step system designed

1360
01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:19,200
Speaker 2: to improve comfort, balance and support. My feet, knees, and

1361
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:23,320
Speaker 2: back are thanking me already. Visit goodfeet dot com to

1362
01:09:23,400 --> 01:09:26,920
Speaker 2: learn more, find the nearest store, or book your own

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