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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, This is Guy and I'm here with Laurie

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Speaker 1: as always, and we have a special guest with us

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Speaker 1: today again, Ben Bernstein, who is a therapist in training

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Speaker 1: who does all calls to the guests and speaks to

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Speaker 1: them and make sure that they are the best guests

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Speaker 1: for our podcast. And Ben is here to discuss with

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Speaker 1: us a recent episode, Adam's cheating boyfriend. So Ben, welcome,

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Speaker 1: Hey Guy, Hey Laurie, tell us been about your conversations

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Speaker 1: with Adam before he came on the show, what your

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Speaker 1: impressions were, and where you thought that session would go.

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Speaker 2: Of course, for listeners, for just a quick refresher, So,

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Speaker 2: Adam's a young man whose family never talked about the

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Speaker 2: death of his mom when he was a kid. Now,

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Speaker 2: as an adult, he's struggling to set healthy boundaries in

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Speaker 2: his romantic relationships. So before we get to the session,

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Speaker 2: I'll tell you what I was thinking about ahead of

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Speaker 2: the session. I thought in my initial meeting with Adam

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Speaker 2: that there was clearly a link between his mom's death

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Speaker 2: and the relationship issues he was having. He clearly wondered

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Speaker 2: about it as well. I guess the mystery for me

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Speaker 2: was twofold. First, what is the nature of that link,

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Speaker 2: like why were they connected those two things? And then

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Speaker 2: once you figure that out or have some idea about that,

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Speaker 2: how do you share that link with Adam in a

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Speaker 2: way that feels emotional and not just intellectual. So my

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Speaker 2: first question is you start by asking him about his

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Speaker 2: current relationships and I'm wondering why started his current relationships,

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Speaker 2: and not go back immediately to the mom's death.

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Speaker 3: I think what you often see us do on the

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Speaker 3: podcast is somebody's writing in with a real time problem,

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Speaker 3: and we want to get more information about that problem,

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Speaker 3: and we also want to join them, because if somebody's

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Speaker 3: writing in about something and they want help with it,

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Speaker 3: and we start asking about something that they feel is

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Speaker 3: totally unrelated or they don't see the relationship, they're not

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Speaker 3: going to feel like we're there with them. We really

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Speaker 3: want to be there with them, So we want to

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Speaker 3: understand what is causing the pain right now, and then

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Speaker 3: we can unpack that a little bit. Then we can

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Speaker 3: move somewhere else with them.

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Speaker 1: And what you'll typically hear us do is get to

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Speaker 1: a point at the beginning where we're finding out something

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Speaker 1: that's going on in the present. In this case with Adam,

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Speaker 1: in his present relationships and the behavior he has after

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Speaker 1: he set standards for behavior and they get violated. Being

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Speaker 1: way to forgiving, then you get the opportunity to say,

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Speaker 1: let's look at where you learned to do that. Now,

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Speaker 1: let's go back in context for him as well as

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Speaker 1: for us, and so you'll hear us doing that.

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Speaker 3: Look, it's also very different to have someone describe a

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Speaker 3: problem in a letter that we read and then to

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Speaker 3: talk to them and then hear more. So it just

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Speaker 3: flushes that out. So, for example, Adam said, in the

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Speaker 3: very beginning, you know, there were these little lies. I

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Speaker 3: didn't really think anything of it. And what he called

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Speaker 3: little lies were things like would he would go out

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Speaker 3: and not tell me where he was. He would be

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Speaker 3: out with people, but he refused to tell me who

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Speaker 3: he was with basic information like that. No big deal

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Speaker 3: is what he said. You don't get that in the letter,

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Speaker 3: You get that in the conversation. So that contextualized what

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Speaker 3: was going on for him much more for us. It

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Speaker 3: was very helpful to know that about him.

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Speaker 2: So there's a moment in a session where Laurie, you

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Speaker 2: ask Adam whether his stepmom, not officially his stepmom, but

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Speaker 2: functionally his stepmom had changed the house after she moved in,

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Speaker 2: And it turns out that stepmom had changed things completely

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Speaker 2: and had been quite emotional for Adam. I'm going to

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Speaker 2: play with the clip.

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Speaker 4: When she moved in, did the house still have the

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Speaker 4: presence of your mom in it? Meaning there was still

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Speaker 4: pictures up for you kids, so that both things could

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Speaker 4: co exist. There's the memory of your mom and then

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Speaker 4: there's this new person in the house. Was there any

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Speaker 4: kind of presence of your mom that continued in the

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Speaker 4: house after she died?

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Speaker 5: You know, when she moved in, a lot did change.

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Speaker 5: A lot changed quite quickly. The color of the walls,

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Speaker 5: you know, the decorations, and it was a very very

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Speaker 5: different style to what we had before. There were a

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Speaker 5: few pictures I think of my mum in the house,

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Speaker 5: but not many, not many at all.

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Speaker 6: What was that like for you when she moves in

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Speaker 6: and the house changes, because as kids, that often feels

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Speaker 6: like a bit of the betrayal in terms of your

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Speaker 6: mom or being replaced. Do you remember how you felt

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Speaker 6: about her moving in and about the I'm going to

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Speaker 6: guess that nobody asked you how you felt about her

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Speaker 6: moving in, But correct me if that's incorrect, But do

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Speaker 6: you remember how you felt about her moving in and

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Speaker 6: those changes.

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Speaker 5: No, you're right, I don't think anybody did ask me,

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Speaker 5: but it did feel like a betrayal.

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Speaker 3: I just want to say right away that sometimes when

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Speaker 3: we're doing these podcasts and I listened to how Guy works,

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Speaker 3: or he listens to how I work, there's something the

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Speaker 3: other person says that really touches us. And Guy in

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Speaker 3: that moment, I was so touched. It was sort of

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Speaker 3: an off comment you made, but it was so true.

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Speaker 3: You said. I'm guessing nobody ever asked you how you felt.

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Speaker 3: And you could just feel so much compassion for little

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Speaker 3: Adam there when he was a boy of his mother dies,

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Speaker 3: He's I think nine years old, and this new woman

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Speaker 3: comes in. Nobody has talked about the mom's death that

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Speaker 3: became this taboo topic, and the house is being redecorated,

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Speaker 3: and I'm just picturing this little boy, and I love

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Speaker 3: how you brought that to light. Nobody asked you how

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Speaker 3: you felt. You didn't just say how did you feel

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Speaker 3: about it? Adam? You said, and I'm guessing nobody asked you.

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Speaker 3: I love that moment.

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Speaker 1: There are many moments in that session where I was

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Speaker 1: looking at Adam, but I was seeing the nine year old.

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Speaker 1: There were so many and I think both of us

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Speaker 1: our hearts broke for that nine year old and really

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Speaker 1: for the other sisters as well, because such a difficult

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Speaker 1: thing happened and no one spoke about it at all.

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Speaker 1: There was no comfort for them. I remember that scene

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Speaker 1: after the mom died. They were all sitting together in

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Speaker 1: the living room and talking. They were all just sitting

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Speaker 1: and crying, but there was no reaching out. There was

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Speaker 1: no physical contact and there was no emotional contact. It

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Speaker 1: was just very heartbreaking.

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Speaker 2: Can you say a little more about what you mean

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Speaker 2: by you felt like you saw him as his nine

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Speaker 2: year old self.

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Speaker 1: Adam was very open. It was one of the things

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Speaker 1: that was very clear from the beginning of the session.

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Speaker 1: We confronted him with his behavior of being so forgiving

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Speaker 1: with these boyfriends, and he was very undefensive. He took

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Speaker 1: it in, he thought about it, he reflected on it.

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Speaker 1: He really responded in a very very open way. And

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Speaker 1: the same was true when we were talking with him

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Speaker 1: about what was going on. Laurie asked him at some

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Speaker 1: point again it was a very very touching moment about

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Speaker 1: whether his mum ever spoke to him about the fact

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Speaker 1: that she was dying, whether that was ever discussed between

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Speaker 1: the two of them, whether she ever said goodbye in

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Speaker 1: that way, and of course she didn't.

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Speaker 3: And what she said was don't be sad. So again,

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Speaker 3: good intentions. You know, as a mother, it breaks your heart.

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Speaker 3: I'm leaving my children. I don't want to leave my children.

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Speaker 3: I don't want them to feel pain. But the message

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Speaker 3: he got was don't feel your feelings. Of course he's

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Speaker 3: going to be sad, his mother is dying and he's

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Speaker 3: nine years old, right, it.

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Speaker 1: Was don't feel them, don't talk about them, And that

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Speaker 1: was indeed what happened in that home. And so when

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Speaker 1: you hear that, and it's so detailed and rich in

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Speaker 1: that way his emotional experience, you can really visualize him

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Speaker 1: as a child, and that was very front and present

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Speaker 1: for me during the session.

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Speaker 3: And also then getting to know that child what he

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Speaker 3: does in his relationships now as an adult makes so

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Speaker 3: much more sense because you think, well, why would you

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Speaker 3: put up with that, Why do you ignore that, Why

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Speaker 3: do you not listen to your own feelings around this,

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Speaker 3: Why are these things that are big deals being kind

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Speaker 3: of categorized in your mind? Is not a big deal.

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Speaker 2: There's a really cool moment that actually, I think really

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Speaker 2: nicely with that in which you kind of find moments

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Speaker 2: both of you in this case, Laurie, that seemed to

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Speaker 2: mirror what's happening for the patient. The relationships outside the

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Speaker 2: session you find them in the session. So I'm going

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Speaker 2: to play a quick clip of that.

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Speaker 5: From a young age, I was very close with my mom,

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Speaker 5: and I always was a little bit scared of my dad,

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Speaker 5: not because he was a bad guy or anything. It

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Speaker 5: was just, you know, sometimes he could lose his temper,

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Speaker 5: and I found that a little bit scary.

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Speaker 4: Just noticing how you minimize his anger. He said, well,

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Speaker 4: I kind of avoided him when I was younger because

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Speaker 4: he had a little bit of a temper. A temper

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Speaker 4: from an adult when you're young and small is incredibly scary,

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Speaker 4: very frightening to see an adult with that big kind

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Speaker 4: of rage, even if other times he's very loving and kind.

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Speaker 4: I just want you to notice how much you minimize

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Speaker 4: the experiences is that happen to you that elicit some

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Speaker 4: kind of emotion in you, like fear or sadness, or

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Speaker 4: even your own anger at your boyfriend for cheating or

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Speaker 4: at your father for being angry with you. These external

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Speaker 4: things get minimized, and then you don't allow yourself to

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Speaker 4: feel your feelings because you're not really acknowledging how these

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Speaker 4: things are affecting you.

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Speaker 2: I thought, this is a really cool moment, and I'm wondering,

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Speaker 2: are you guys on the lookout for moments like this

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Speaker 2: where you can bring the outside in and what are

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Speaker 2: the benefits of finding these kind of live moments in

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Speaker 2: the session.

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Speaker 3: The therapy room is a microcosm of what happens outside there.

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Speaker 3: So what happens outside there will happen between the therapists

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Speaker 3: and the client inevitably at some point. But also the

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Speaker 3: connections of what's happening in the current problem with something

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Speaker 3: that happened in the past. And so it's one thing

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Speaker 3: to intellectually talk about something. People have a much more

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Speaker 3: visceral reaction when you can point out, look at you

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Speaker 3: doing that again, look at that pattern, look at that

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Speaker 3: thing that had happened when you were younger, watch yourself

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Speaker 3: do it now as an adult. So yes, we always

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Speaker 3: want to make those connections for.

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Speaker 1: People, and it's really impactful when it happens that way

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Speaker 1: because it happened live in front of us. We're pointing

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Speaker 1: out something they did in that moment. So those are

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Speaker 1: always the most powerful, so we absolutely look for those.

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Speaker 2: The link you eventually made between his mom's death and

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Speaker 2: the relationship issues was avoidance. Adam's family avoided feelings connected

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Speaker 2: to his mom's death, and now Adam he's avoiding going

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Speaker 2: on dates. When he does date, he avoids important issues

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Speaker 2: in the relationship, like loyalty and honesty. To what extent

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Speaker 2: do you think Adam brought that avoidance to the session,

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Speaker 2: if at all? I guess relatedly, like, how do we

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Speaker 2: work with people when they are avoiding things in sessions?

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Speaker 1: Well, I think that the issue was not so much

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Speaker 1: avoidance and more about defect fact that he learned that

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Speaker 1: his feelings don't matter. Because when something huge happened in

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Speaker 1: his childhood, and a lot of huge things that happened afterwards,

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Speaker 1: no one asked him what his feelings were. He learned

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Speaker 1: to dismiss them. Mom said, don't feel right now, don't

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Speaker 1: feel sad, and that's what was happening. He had an

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Speaker 1: emotional reaction when his boyfriend was cheating on him. He

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Speaker 1: just didn't know how valid that was. If the boyfriend

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Speaker 1: explains it away in a very poor way. He could

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Speaker 1: easily dismiss his feelings. He had been doing it his

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Speaker 1: entire life. He had learned to do it in childhood.

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Speaker 1: And when children learned that no one is there to

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Speaker 1: attend to their feelings, they learned to dismiss them. And

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Speaker 1: that's what happened with him, and that's what was manifesting

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Speaker 1: in his adult life.

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Speaker 3: I agree with Guy about the difference between avoidance and

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Speaker 3: not trusting your feelings enough to let them have some air,

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Speaker 3: even with yourself. And I think that we provided an

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Speaker 3: environment for him where we actually asked him the questions

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Speaker 3: that nobody was ever asking him, which was, tell us

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Speaker 3: about your feelings. We're interested in your feelings, we care

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Speaker 3: about your feelings. Your feelings matter. And I think he

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Speaker 3: craved that he had not gotten that, and that might

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Speaker 3: be one reason that he was so open with us

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Speaker 3: and so willing to share them with us, because it

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Speaker 3: was something very long overdue for.

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Speaker 1: Him over time. If this were an ongoing therapy, that

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Speaker 1: could have been a very curative thing for him to

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Speaker 1: just sit with someone on a regular basis who's interested

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Speaker 1: in his feelings, who's asking him about his feelings, who's

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Speaker 1: listening to his feelings, that whole process. That is powerful

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Speaker 1: in itself because it's corrected.

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Speaker 3: And then they can apply that to their relationships out

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Speaker 3: in the world. But they need to have the experience first.

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Speaker 6: You're listening to dea therapists. We'll be back after a

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Speaker 6: short break.

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Speaker 1: We're back discussing Adam's cheating boyfriend with intern Ben.

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Speaker 6: So back to Ben.

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Speaker 2: The one thing that I thought about a lot listening

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Speaker 2: to the episode was why is this so easy? What

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Speaker 2: makes session like that kind of just coast along really

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Speaker 2: productively all the way through.

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Speaker 3: That's a very good question. With somebody who is so agreeable,

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Speaker 3: you want to make sure that they actually are telling

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Speaker 3: you what they really feel if they disagree with you.

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Speaker 3: So if there was a point where Adam was thinking, no,

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Speaker 3: that doesn't really sound like it matches my experience, or

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Speaker 3: I don't really think there's a connection there, or I

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Speaker 3: didn't really experience it that way, but let me tell

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Speaker 3: you how I did experience it. I don't know if

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Speaker 3: Adam would have been comfortable enough to do that. I

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Speaker 3: think because we get the homework part of it, and

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Speaker 3: we get to see how he did that week with

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Speaker 3: the homework I think he actually was just being very open.

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Speaker 3: I don't think that he was being agreeable for the

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Speaker 3: sake of being agreeable. Well, no, a year later when

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Speaker 3: we do the follow up for season three and season four,

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Speaker 3: But I do think that's a great question because you

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Speaker 3: always want to wonder if someone's being just very agreeable

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Speaker 3: about everything what's going on there? Are they afraid to

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Speaker 3: disagree with us? Are they afraid to tell us something

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Speaker 3: for fear that we might not like what they have

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Speaker 3: to say?

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Speaker 1: That seemed easy, I think in some ways because this

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Speaker 1: piece we spoke about just now from his childhood, from

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Speaker 1: the death of his mother and how that impacts him.

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Speaker 1: I think that was quite straightforward. The work for him

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Speaker 1: is going to be in truly applying these limits and

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Speaker 1: the pact that we had him come up with to

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Speaker 1: his dating situations to risk losing the person he's dating

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Speaker 1: by setting limits with them, by making demands that are reasonable,

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Speaker 1: by expressing his feelings. That's going to be the difficult

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Speaker 1: part for him. That's the part we'll hear about next

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Speaker 1: year because we can't really know about it. There was

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Speaker 1: a hint of it in the home loook, but really

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Speaker 1: not enough to know if that's something he'll be able

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Speaker 1: to do in the emotional stakes a high.

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Speaker 3: But I think that in order to do that, he

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Speaker 3: needed the piece that he got from the session, which

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Speaker 3: was we need to start talking about mom. Yes, And

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Speaker 3: when he was able to open up that conversation with

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Speaker 3: his family and it went relatively well, and it certainly

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Speaker 3: went very well with his aunt, and I think with

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Speaker 3: his father and siblings it went better than he expected.

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Speaker 3: So I think once he starts integrating some of those

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Speaker 3: feelings into his experience and they're not a secret anymore,

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Speaker 3: that's going to really help him with this other issue

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Speaker 3: that he's been experiencing relationally.

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Speaker 2: You both shared in the session in different moments that

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Speaker 2: you felt moved even moved to tears by Adam's recounting

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Speaker 2: of his childhood, especially his mom's leaving him that ring.

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Speaker 2: What made you, guys, decide to share your emotional reactions

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Speaker 2: with Adam? And then I think, more broadly, how do

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Speaker 2: you decide and to share your emotions with your patients.

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Speaker 3: Well, my approach as a therapist, and I think guys too,

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Speaker 3: is that we are people before therapists, that obviously we're

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Speaker 3: using our training and our expertise and our experience. That's

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Speaker 3: what we do. But we're people and we're connecting on

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Speaker 3: a human level, and so I think it's important that

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Speaker 3: people see that we're having whatever reaction that we're having,

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Speaker 3: because otherwise there's no human element to it. You're telling

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Speaker 3: a sad story and the therapist is stonefaced, Well what

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Speaker 3: kind of human interaction is that? Or you're angry about

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Speaker 3: something and the therapist feels angry on your behalf, but they're

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Speaker 3: just stone faced, you know. I think for a lot

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Speaker 3: of people, what they were getting was the stone face

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Speaker 3: and one way or another. And so here's a real

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Speaker 3: human interaction. Here's the eye thou of the therapeutic relationship

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Speaker 3: that makes it so powerful. So why would we want

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Speaker 3: to hide that from someone?

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Speaker 1: I completely agree, And I also think that it's modeling

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Speaker 1: sometimes for somebody who has a hard time getting in

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Speaker 1: touch with his feelings and he's telling such a moving story.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of gulping going on on my

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Speaker 1: end when he was telling that story because you could

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Speaker 1: just picture it. It was incredibly touching. What the mom did,

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Speaker 1: she folded it in a picture of the two of them.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was one of those movie moments that

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Speaker 1: it was just would have the whole audience weeping. So

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Speaker 1: I think, especially in those kinds of moments, it's really

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Speaker 1: important to be open about the human reaction that we

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Speaker 1: have as people to also model to him like this

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Speaker 1: is an appropriate response if you want in touch with

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Speaker 1: your feelings about that moment. Enough, here's permission to get

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Speaker 1: in touch with him, because this was not touching.

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Speaker 2: Thanks so much. I really enjoy hearing you guys reflect

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Speaker 2: on the session and learning some really important ideas like

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Speaker 2: I can use my own practice as a therapist. Certainly

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Speaker 2: interviewing him beforehand and not knowing where the session was

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Speaker 2: going to go, feeling like it was full of possibility

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Speaker 2: and then seeing the ways that you guys took it

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Speaker 2: in different directions was great and I really enjoyed listening

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Speaker 2: to it. Well.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for the questions, Ben, These are great conversations.

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Speaker 1: It was really great men. To hear your thoughts from

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Speaker 1: your interviews. To get a sense of your initial impressions

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Speaker 1: of these people that then we get to know during

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Speaker 1: a session was an interesting thing for us to hear

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Speaker 1: as well. So thank you very much for being so

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Speaker 1: thoughtful and for having these questions for us, and for

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Speaker 1: this really interesting discussion.

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Speaker 6: Next week.

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Speaker 1: In the last about two bonus episodes, we're doing another

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Speaker 1: case consultation with our intern, Ben, a psychology graduate student

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Speaker 1: who pre interviews the guests and helps select who gets

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Speaker 1: on the show. We're having an honest conversation about the session,

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Speaker 1: Becker and Jake's marital impulse and what we wish we

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Speaker 1: had done differently.

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Speaker 3: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

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Speaker 3: free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please

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Speaker 3: help support your therapist by telling your friends about it

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Speaker 3: and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really

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Speaker 3: help people to find the show.

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Speaker 1: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

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Speaker 1: email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

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Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

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Speaker 1: by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John

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Speaker 1: Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily

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Speaker 1: Gutierrez and Silver Lifton and special thanks to our podcast

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Speaker 1: fairy Godmother Katie Curic. We can't wait to see you

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Speaker 1: at our next session. Deotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio

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Speaker 5: Food