Speaker 1: If you take away the adapted behavior, what's gonna deal
Speaker 1: with the underlying causes, which is why people relapse. It's
Speaker 1: just too much Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time,
Speaker 1: great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have.
Speaker 1: Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 1: you think ring true, and yet for many of us,
Speaker 1: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good Thanks for
Speaker 1: joining us. Our guest on this episode is Dr Valerie
Speaker 1: Mason John, a public speaker and master trainer in the
Speaker 1: field of conflict or transformation, leadership and mindfulness. Valerie is
Speaker 1: the award winning author of eight books and the co
Speaker 1: author and co founder of eight Step Recovery, using the
Speaker 1: Buddhist teaching to overcome addiction. Since its publication, it has
Speaker 1: won the Best USA Book Award two thousand fourteen and
Speaker 1: Best International Book Award two thousand fifteen in the Self
Speaker 1: Motivational and Self help category. Hi, Valerie, Welcome to the show. Hi.
Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to have you on. We're going to
Speaker 1: be discussing several different things of years, but I think
Speaker 1: we'll spend a lot of our time talking about your book,
Speaker 1: eight Step Recovery, using the Buddhist teachings to overcome addiction.
Speaker 1: But before we do that will start like we always
Speaker 1: do with the parable. In the Parable, there is a
Speaker 1: grandmother who's talking with her grandson and she says, in life,
Speaker 1: there are two wolves inside of us that are always
Speaker 1: at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things
Speaker 1: like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is
Speaker 1: a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred
Speaker 1: and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about
Speaker 1: it for a second and he looks up as grandmother.
Speaker 1: He says, well, grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says,
Speaker 1: the one you feed. So I'd like to start off
Speaker 1: by asking you what that parable means to you in
Speaker 1: your life and in the work that you do. Thank
Speaker 1: you for this parable. It's a very strong parable and
Speaker 1: very interesting and I think if I had come across
Speaker 1: this parable ten years ago, I would have said, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's the bad wolf inside us, and there's the good
Speaker 1: wolf inside us. And where I am today is is
Speaker 1: that I don't tend to think in Julia is in
Speaker 1: binary bad or good, because in a way, when there's greed,
Speaker 1: hatred and fear, there's a reason why that greed and
Speaker 1: hatred and fear has arisen, and there's a reason why
Speaker 1: we feed that greed, hatred and fear because often that greed,
Speaker 1: hatred and fear is protecting us. It's protecting us perhaps
Speaker 1: because we've never been loved and we don't want to
Speaker 1: be exposed about not being loved. So these toxins that
Speaker 1: I call greed, hatred and fear can be real protectors.
Speaker 1: Of course, I agree that when we feed it, we
Speaker 1: multiply it, of course, But in terms of thinking who wins,
Speaker 1: I like to think that perhaps who withdraws back, who
Speaker 1: becomes a bit silent, who actually withdraws back so that
Speaker 1: we can be our true vulnerable self, Because often it's greed,
Speaker 1: hatred and fear is protecting that vulnerable self, that vulnerable
Speaker 1: it self, which was abused, which was violated when we
Speaker 1: were young. Yeah, so that's what I think about the
Speaker 1: parable Robin and who wins, who dies. It's just how
Speaker 1: can one of those wolves step back, one of those
Speaker 1: demons step back, so that we can really be our
Speaker 1: true self, so that we can really be in the
Speaker 1: place of love, in the place of kindness, and in
Speaker 1: the place of bravery. That's very well said and very lovely.
Speaker 1: I want to start by asking you just to share
Speaker 1: a little of your story, since we're going to focus
Speaker 1: a fair amount of this conversation around recovery and addiction,
Speaker 1: If you want to share your story of recovery and addiction,
Speaker 1: and again I know I'm asking you to do a
Speaker 1: very short summary of something that you could probably spend
Speaker 1: three hours talk been about, but maybe just paid the
Speaker 1: broad sketches, just so kind of people know where you're
Speaker 1: coming from. Yes, as you know that I do have
Speaker 1: lived experience of addiction and in this moment living in recovery,
Speaker 1: and I would say that I've been in recovery from
Speaker 1: drugs and alcohol. I've been in recovery for a good
Speaker 1: twenty years. Yeah, A date because I never went into
Speaker 1: the rooms of twelve Steps, but definitely a good twenty years.
Speaker 1: And then I had disordered eating, which was so much
Speaker 1: harder to let go of. That was the last one
Speaker 1: for me to let go oen. And if listeners are thinking,
Speaker 1: how is disordered eating an addiction, then please read the
Speaker 1: book It's a Recovery, or listen to it. It's now
Speaker 1: an audiobook, and you will really see how disordered eating
Speaker 1: can be an addiction. And one example I will give
Speaker 1: is that Eric, there were times forty years back when
Speaker 1: I was deep into that addiction and I couldn't even
Speaker 1: pass a food shop without not stopping and buying something.
Speaker 1: And before I was even left the shop, there would
Speaker 1: be food in my mouth, and then I'd be trying
Speaker 1: to find a place to purge and throw up. And
Speaker 1: I was one of these signs when I was just
Speaker 1: like on a bender, binging, throwing up, binging, throwing up,
Speaker 1: and food got lodged in my throat in the windpipe,
Speaker 1: and I'm jumping up and down by the toilet basin,
Speaker 1: jumping up and down. Unfortunately it dislodged. I pass out
Speaker 1: on What am I doing? Half an hour? Forty five
Speaker 1: minutes later eating, binging and purging again, and it was
Speaker 1: just that vicious cycle. And actually many people aren't aware of,
Speaker 1: not even seen it written in the literature, that many
Speaker 1: people aren't aware with something like the lima nervosa, there's
Speaker 1: a real attachment to the alter states. When you binge
Speaker 1: and the air is restricted, you lose balance, you drop things,
Speaker 1: and you go into this coma like state. And then
Speaker 1: of course when you purge, there's a high in the purging,
Speaker 1: and so one can also get addicted to the high
Speaker 1: and to the alter states. One can get around this
Speaker 1: bollimia nervosa. And it's really interesting that I've just not
Speaker 1: seen anything written about the alter states you can have.
Speaker 1: And also in terms of in anorexic, because I was
Speaker 1: an erectic billimic, which means that anything that I told
Speaker 1: myself I wasn't going to eat, I would throw up.
Speaker 1: I was actually anorexic. And then I just did so
Speaker 1: much of physical exercise my body couldn't cope with it,
Speaker 1: and I spun into bolimia and it was a hell
Speaker 1: realm for years. And that's been a good fifteen year
Speaker 1: is as I say fifteen years, it doesn't seem very long.
Speaker 1: Actually fifteen years actually when I when I think about it,
Speaker 1: but it was a real hell realm. So the cause,
Speaker 1: the cause of my addictive behaviors, gosh, you know, the
Speaker 1: root of it is for all of us. I think
Speaker 1: we often hear one of my teachers Dr Gabaor and
Speaker 1: Matte say that everybody has trauma, but not all people
Speaker 1: who have trauma have addictions. But everyone who has addictions
Speaker 1: has trauma. And I had a lot of trauma in
Speaker 1: my life. I'd say I had racial trauma, sexual trauma,
Speaker 1: physical trauma, emotional trauma, neglect trauma. So when I do
Speaker 1: the ACE, you're aware of the adverse child experiences ACE.
Speaker 1: Yet when I do the ACE, I take off absolutely
Speaker 1: practically everything on there. And I would say, actually, the bullima,
Speaker 1: and I was very aware of it when I was
Speaker 1: in It was very much connected to the sexual trauma.
Speaker 1: It was as if I was trying to purge the
Speaker 1: filth out of me. Yeah, and then the alcohol and
Speaker 1: drugs would give me respite. Yeah. Yeah. Your story is
Speaker 1: really powerful. You've been through so much, and certainly you
Speaker 1: talk very eloquently about the link between the trauma you
Speaker 1: had earlier. You know, the bullying that's gone on. I
Speaker 1: know that's been a big cause of yours, is to
Speaker 1: work with bullying, and there's lots there. You say that
Speaker 1: addiction happens when activity is used as a means to
Speaker 1: escape from the distress of experiencing oneself, and I really
Speaker 1: like that idea, you know. I think that shows the
Speaker 1: through line between bulimia and drugs and alcohol and gambling
Speaker 1: and shopping and sex and pick your thing right, when
Speaker 1: we look at it through that lens, it's a means
Speaker 1: to escape from the distress of experiencing ourselves, and then
Speaker 1: it's something that we keep doing. It takes on a
Speaker 1: life of its own. And similar to the way you
Speaker 1: said earlier when you were talking about the wolves, I
Speaker 1: think it's so common that for a lot of us,
Speaker 1: our addictions are answers for a period of time, you know,
Speaker 1: for a lot of people, particularly people, and you may
Speaker 1: speak to this more eloquently than I can. They help
Speaker 1: us stay alive. They help us to cope long enough
Speaker 1: that hopefully we can find our way to recovery. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I like the way you put that. And of course
Speaker 1: it was coming back to this parable and just seeing
Speaker 1: that these addictions. In fact, I said to somebody the
Speaker 1: other day that my addiction kept me alive. At one
Speaker 1: point I just couldn't bear life without my coping mechanisms.
Speaker 1: They gave me my joy and my happiness. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: I know in a sense I talk about not wanting
Speaker 1: to talk in in June is a more binary language.
Speaker 1: And I think when I rewrite, I will tweat that
Speaker 1: because it's placing positive values at the center of our lives.
Speaker 1: And I like to think of expansive values at the
Speaker 1: center of our lives, because there are limited values and
Speaker 1: their expansive values. And if we have addictions, what's at
Speaker 1: the center of our lives. The choice of our distraction
Speaker 1: is at the center of our life, and our whole
Speaker 1: life is arranged around when are we're going to get
Speaker 1: the next fixed, When are we going to be able
Speaker 1: to get in touch with the dealer, When are we
Speaker 1: going to get the next piece of food? When am
Speaker 1: I going to be able to switch on the computer?
Speaker 1: And so it goes on and on and on, and
Speaker 1: we turn to these adaptations, these adaptive behaviors to try
Speaker 1: and soothe ourselves, and of course in the end they
Speaker 1: are limited because in the end they really do cause
Speaker 1: us misery. And for some people it's so difficult to
Speaker 1: get out of that what I call the hellum or
Speaker 1: the hungry ghost of addiction, because if we begin to
Speaker 1: wake up and then begin to, as they say in
Speaker 1: the Rooms of Twelve Steps, look at the wreckage of
Speaker 1: the past, people just find that's so difficult to cope with.
Speaker 1: And so again, this these adaptive behaviors is protecting somebody
Speaker 1: from even actually thinking about their past actions. So if
Speaker 1: anybody is listening it, just really know that if you
Speaker 1: are in active addiction, that there is a reason why
Speaker 1: you've had this addiction, and this addictive behavior is trying
Speaker 1: to help you, and we do have to learn different
Speaker 1: ways to help us because it's not only a matter
Speaker 1: of life and death. It can be a matter of
Speaker 1: being in prison and out of prison. It can be
Speaker 1: a matter of actually completely destroying your whole family life. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: I love what you said. They're about that idea of
Speaker 1: expansive using the word expanse of versus positive. I found
Speaker 1: one of the questions I think it comes from the
Speaker 1: psychologist James Harllis. I'm not sure where it originally came from,
Speaker 1: but the question of when you're facing a decision to
Speaker 1: ask yourself, you know, does this expand me or contract me?
Speaker 1: And I love that question, because boy, that seems to
Speaker 1: cut through a lot of noise for me really quickly,
Speaker 1: and I can feel my way into that idea of
Speaker 1: expansive versus contracted pretty easily for me. Working more and
Speaker 1: more specifically putting the spotlight on trauma, because of course,
Speaker 1: addictive behavior is one consequence of trauma, one adaptive behavior
Speaker 1: of trauma, and I see addiction as a trauma response
Speaker 1: actually because it's withdrawal. Trauma response is one withdrawals from
Speaker 1: the world, and when we're in that addictive behavior, we
Speaker 1: are withdrawing from the world, we go into our own world. Yes,
Speaker 1: so definitely is a trauma response. I think i'd like
Speaker 1: to start talking about some of the eight steps. We're
Speaker 1: obviously not going to get through all of them, but
Speaker 1: do you have a way that you find to summarize
Speaker 1: them that's helpful. Let's see we can go through the
Speaker 1: eight steps really quickly. What I'd like to say about
Speaker 1: the eight steps is that the first three steps are
Speaker 1: modeled on that Buddhist teaching the four Noble Truths, and
Speaker 1: so the first step is accepting that this human life
Speaker 1: will bring suffering and Eric this is a really important
Speaker 1: step because often people say the Buddha taught that life
Speaker 1: was suffering. The Buddha didn't teach life was suffering. The
Speaker 1: Buddha taught that because of this human life, we will
Speaker 1: experience suffering. We're going to experience suffering because we're going
Speaker 1: to aid, we're gonna get sick, we're going to die,
Speaker 1: and we're gonna lose loved ones. And for me, when
Speaker 1: I first read this noble truth, it was almost as
Speaker 1: if the light bulb had come on in the room
Speaker 1: of my body, because I thought I was the only
Speaker 1: person who suffered. And not only did I think I
Speaker 1: was the only person who was suffering, I thought it
Speaker 1: was bad to suffer, that I shouldn't be suffering. And
Speaker 1: so therefore this step just catapulted me into the rest
Speaker 1: of the world thinking, Okay, this is an aspect of life. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I had such a similar experience when I first was
Speaker 1: exposed to it, I just felt like, ah, finally somebody
Speaker 1: is telling the truth about this. Like, I had a
Speaker 1: very similar experience. I love the way you say it
Speaker 1: was like the light bulb went on. What did you
Speaker 1: say in the mind of my body. Yeah, something, that's
Speaker 1: a great line. And then of course the second noble
Speaker 1: truth is is the causes of suffering, you know, greed, craving,
Speaker 1: and so the second step is seeing how we create
Speaker 1: extra suffering in our lives. And and I could really
Speaker 1: see how I was creating extra suffering in my life
Speaker 1: that that wasn't lock, it's and it's of course I
Speaker 1: was creating extra suffering in my life. And so I
Speaker 1: think that's really important because often people just aren't aware
Speaker 1: that they are creating extra suffering in their lives. Today,
Speaker 1: I often think, am I putting the second dart in?
Speaker 1: You know, if we think of the two dark teaching?
Speaker 1: The first start is the pain, and there is pain.
Speaker 1: We cannot avoid pain. That's a whole another teaching, and
Speaker 1: I just want to say, we cannot avoid pain. Pain
Speaker 1: is experienced in the body, headonic tone, and that's physical
Speaker 1: pain as well as mental pain. I think that's really
Speaker 1: important because often we don't talk about mental pain as
Speaker 1: the first start of suffering. Mental pain, physical pain first
Speaker 1: start of suffering. Because as we know in Buddhism, the
Speaker 1: mind is also a sense store, and so we have
Speaker 1: to come into relationship of how we create extra suffering
Speaker 1: in our lives. And then the third step is really
Speaker 1: interesting for me because when I came across these four
Speaker 1: noble truth I couldn't understand Eric, why the bird step
Speaker 1: was that there was an end of suffering. They're telling
Speaker 1: me there's an end of suffering. And then the fourth
Speaker 1: noble truth is there is a way out of suffering.
Speaker 1: And of course I realized that if the third noble
Speaker 1: truth had been there was a way out of suffering,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have believed you. Being told that there was
Speaker 1: an end of suffering gave me hope. And so this
Speaker 1: third step we called it, as I want to credit
Speaker 1: my writing colleague, Dr Paramavander Groves, we decided that the
Speaker 1: third step would be recognizing in permanent shows us that
Speaker 1: our suffering can end. Isn't that beautiful? Just imagine, Eric,
Speaker 1: if you'd never changed, Just imagine, I mean to me,
Speaker 1: I just think this is such an uplifting step. Often
Speaker 1: people say that Buddhism is really kind of quite realistic,
Speaker 1: and I think, to me, it's so uplifting. And then
Speaker 1: the fourth step is this is the action. Now beginning
Speaker 1: to take action, being willing to step onto the path
Speaker 1: of recovery, and discover freedom. And for me it was
Speaker 1: important to have this word freedom and not discover joy
Speaker 1: or love or whatever, because what does that look like freedom?
Speaker 1: When we have freedom, we know we've got freedom. And
Speaker 1: for me, it's the freedom from the prison of our minds.
Speaker 1: In the words of late Bob Marley, is free ourselves
Speaker 1: from mental slavery. No one but ourselves can free ourselves.
Speaker 1: And so it's just reminding us that if we want
Speaker 1: to free ourselves, we have to step onto the path
Speaker 1: of recovery and then step five. This is our moral inventory.
Speaker 1: Sometimes people say, where's a moral inventory in the eight
Speaker 1: step recovery will if you want the moral inventory. This
Speaker 1: is the moral inventory transforming our speech, actions, and livelihood.
Speaker 1: And as you know, somebody who has lived experience of
Speaker 1: addiction can know how actually, when we begin to step
Speaker 1: onto that path, there are many changes that we have
Speaker 1: to begin to make in our lives. And this is
Speaker 1: one of the places where we can falter and actually
Speaker 1: slip or relapse. And then, as I say, placing positive
Speaker 1: values at the center of our lives or expansive values
Speaker 1: at the center of our lives. Because whatever we place
Speaker 1: at the center of our lives, that's going to influence
Speaker 1: us what we do. And then a step seven, making
Speaker 1: every effort to stay on the path of recovery. And
Speaker 1: I think sometimes when people are being in recovery for
Speaker 1: a while, they think, I don't need to make effort.
Speaker 1: What's all this effort about? And I say, today, in
Speaker 1: my life, making every effort to stay on the path
Speaker 1: of recovery is doing absolutely nothing. When a painful sensation
Speaker 1: arises in the body, as we know, painful vade in,
Speaker 1: a painful headonic tone arises in the body, we move
Speaker 1: away from it, we push it away. A pleasant experience
Speaker 1: arises in the body, we want to grasp one to it,
Speaker 1: we want to feed it. And so that is the effort.
Speaker 1: How do we do nothing when unpleasant, pleasant or neutral
Speaker 1: experiences arise? And I just really want to say that
Speaker 1: the neutral experience can be the most activating. You know,
Speaker 1: if somebody who has been new into recovery, perhaps been
Speaker 1: in rehab, come out of rehab second third week, life
Speaker 1: gets a bit boring, life gets a bit neutral, and
Speaker 1: that's when they relapse because need to shake it up
Speaker 1: a bit, need to spice it up a bit. And often,
Speaker 1: as we know, many people who have addictions not all,
Speaker 1: but many people grow up in chaotic environments and are
Speaker 1: not used to being in environments when things are going okay,
Speaker 1: when things are calm. And then that eighth step is
Speaker 1: helping others to share the benefits I have gained and
Speaker 1: for me, I mean, of course, it's a resonant of
Speaker 1: one of the steps in the twelve step program. What
Speaker 1: I say is is to be really aware of this
Speaker 1: step because often many people they come into recovery, they
Speaker 1: get recovery, they're feeling really good, life is going well.
Speaker 1: They're so excited and they want to go out and
Speaker 1: change the world, and you know, be a public speaker
Speaker 1: and run all these meetings. And in a way, what
Speaker 1: I say is that that's the easy thing. To run
Speaker 1: the meetings, to write the books, give the public talks.
Speaker 1: I do all of that. The hardest thing is to
Speaker 1: walk one's talk. How can we be recovery? Often say
Speaker 1: to people, the biggest gift you can give me is
Speaker 1: your recovery. The biggest gift I can give the world
Speaker 1: is my recovery. And that's not in the form of
Speaker 1: writing books. Is how can I be recovery? Say more
Speaker 1: about that? When you say how can you be recovery
Speaker 1: or giving your gift of recovery. So for you or
Speaker 1: a person who's not, you know, engage in writing books,
Speaker 1: public speaking, all that sort of stuff. I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people sometimes go, well, what am I doing?
Speaker 1: So say more about how that benefits the world. It
Speaker 1: benefits the world. When I'm not under the influence of
Speaker 1: adapted behaviors, are more present to the world. I'm kinder
Speaker 1: to the world. I'm happier to the world. I get
Speaker 1: up in the morning, I go to work, I'm more
Speaker 1: pleasant with people. Often people grow up in environments where
Speaker 1: people weren't present for them. So for me, living that
Speaker 1: recovery is too I suppose worker program. I mean that
Speaker 1: sounds quite rigid. Worker program. For me, I'm committed to
Speaker 1: my recovery. It means that there's no time off my recovery.
Speaker 1: It means that I do have a daily meditation practice.
Speaker 1: For some people it might not be in meditation. It
Speaker 1: may be a swimming practice, or a yoga practice, or
Speaker 1: a journal in practice or can practice. And for me,
Speaker 1: the reason why I say this often I have people
Speaker 1: come to me and say, my daughter is really in
Speaker 1: active addiction. I don't know what to do, how can
Speaker 1: I help her? Can they see you or my partner
Speaker 1: is in active addiction? How can I help them? And
Speaker 1: I'll say to them, I say, well, do you drink No, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not an addict. I'm not saying that you're an addict.
Speaker 1: I'm just curious. Do you drink you smoke marajuan? No? No, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: no no no. And eventually here, well, yeah, I have
Speaker 1: the odd glass of wine and you know, and might
Speaker 1: smoke the marajuan. And I say, the best thing you
Speaker 1: could do to help that person is to stop. But
Speaker 1: I'm not the addict. I don't have to stop. And
Speaker 1: I say to them, well, if you don't define yourself
Speaker 1: as an addict and you're finding it difficult to stop,
Speaker 1: how do you expect the person who you're defining has
Speaker 1: got the addictions to stop? You can model that behavior.
Speaker 1: We can model that behavior in the world. I can
Speaker 1: model that behavior in the world that I don't need
Speaker 1: to drink alcohol. I wouldn't define as an alcoholic. I
Speaker 1: choose not to drink alcohol. I choose not to take
Speaker 1: drugs to model something in the world. To live recovery
Speaker 1: in a way, Eric I talk about the gross addictions
Speaker 1: because for me in my recovery, and I think I
Speaker 1: write this in the book, or maybe I write it
Speaker 1: in detoct Your Heart. I think it's detoct Your Heart
Speaker 1: Meditations for Emotional Trauma writer in that book where I
Speaker 1: literally woke up in my bed one day and thought,
Speaker 1: oh my god, my biggest addiction is my stinking thinking. Okay,
Speaker 1: that in itself, how we get so intoxicated by these
Speaker 1: stories and we believe these stories, and just how that
Speaker 1: stinking thinking can destroy our lives. I remember writing the
Speaker 1: book with with param A Band and we had disagreement.
Speaker 1: It was a beautiful piece of work that we did together,
Speaker 1: a very ego lesson, and we had this agreement that
Speaker 1: we had to agree with everything that went in the
Speaker 1: book and one person would write the chapter and the
Speaker 1: other person would read it and then write into chapter.
Speaker 1: And that's how we worked. And I, as you know,
Speaker 1: in the book, we talked about stinking thinking being an
Speaker 1: addiction and Parama Band, who said, I can't have that.
Speaker 1: My peers will think I'm crazy. He was a top
Speaker 1: psychiatrist specializing in alcohol and drugs in the National Health
Speaker 1: Service in England. It's like absolutely no way, and I
Speaker 1: looked Paramiband in the eye and I said, Parama band,
Speaker 1: stinking thinking is the cause of road rage. It's a
Speaker 1: cause of physical abuse, it's a cause of sexual abuse.
Speaker 1: It's the cause of violence. And he relaxed and it
Speaker 1: went in the book and nobody thinks he's crazy. Okay,
Speaker 1: So again, this is one of the fears being around
Speaker 1: people and working with people with alcohol addiction. One of
Speaker 1: the fears is when you let go of the alcohol
Speaker 1: is a depression. This is why some people use the
Speaker 1: alcohol to mask the depression that that's been their pros
Speaker 1: ac In a way, I see addiction as self medication totally.
Speaker 1: It's self medicating. I often say the best antidepressant I
Speaker 1: ever found was to drinks, you know, and I've wrestled
Speaker 1: with depression my whole life. It's something I work with
Speaker 1: and to drinks was magic. Now, of course we know
Speaker 1: that it never stayed at two drinks, but yeah, it
Speaker 1: was an absolute self medication. And my best prosact today
Speaker 1: is meditation. And the reason why is often people wonder
Speaker 1: why the relapse. And what I'm really aware of is
Speaker 1: is that often we can be working at looking at
Speaker 1: the underlying causes, and of course if you take away
Speaker 1: the adapted behavior, what's gonna deal with the underlying causes,
Speaker 1: which is why people relapse. It's just too much. And
Speaker 1: so what meditation can do is to help regulate the
Speaker 1: central nervous system. Because anybody who has addictive adaptive behaviors,
Speaker 1: the central nervous system is out of whack, even those
Speaker 1: people who had love addiction, because people are aware that
Speaker 1: there are studies saying that the amount of endorphins and
Speaker 1: brain releases when somebody injects themselves with heroin is the
Speaker 1: same amount of endorphins that the brain releases when somebody
Speaker 1: thinks of somebody who's got that love addiction. Okay, so
Speaker 1: you think the central nervous system is constantly out of whack,
Speaker 1: and we need something to help regulate the central nervous system.
Speaker 1: And in a way, people are turning towards these adaptive
Speaker 1: behaviors to try and regulate the central nervous system. It
Speaker 1: disregulates it. And something that meditation can do, if we're
Speaker 1: able to be receptive to it, is to regulate the
Speaker 1: central nervous system. And this, of course is so incredibly
Speaker 1: difficult because one of my teachings is about coming home
Speaker 1: to the body, but not but and it's an oxymoron
Speaker 1: because most people with those adaptive behaviors are one and
Speaker 1: to get out their body. They're wanting to get high,
Speaker 1: They're wanting to have altered states. And why do they
Speaker 1: want to be out of their body. Many of these
Speaker 1: people have left their bodies. They switched all feelings off,
Speaker 1: shut all sense tools down. Nobody is home, thank you
Speaker 1: very much. Yeah, and so the scary thing of coming
Speaker 1: back to the body and being in the body can
Speaker 1: be so activating. Yeah. And so you bring up some
Speaker 1: really good points. And I think one of the things
Speaker 1: that I'd like to get your thoughts on are for
Speaker 1: people who find meditation difficult for some of the reasons
Speaker 1: you're bringing up. You know, either a they sit down
Speaker 1: in the stinking thinking just kicks into a high gear
Speaker 1: or be coming back into the body is an uncomfortable thing.
Speaker 1: You know, for a lot of people, meditation feels very difficult.
Speaker 1: What are some ways to work with yourself in men
Speaker 1: meditation that you think help ease some of those things.
Speaker 1: What are some pointers or guidelines that people might find
Speaker 1: that might help them to stay with it a bit.
Speaker 1: I think that we need to throw the word meditation
Speaker 1: out because this is the problem because the word meditation
Speaker 1: defines a particular specific behavior, and that behavior is sitting
Speaker 1: cross legged, sitting in a chair, meditating. Okay, we know
Speaker 1: that there's walking meditation, and we know that the Buddha
Speaker 1: talk that, well, let's say the Buddha talk that meditation
Speaker 1: was walking, sitting, lying, standing. The Buddha talk meditation is everything,
Speaker 1: and yet we don't teach meditation as everything. And so
Speaker 1: for me, when I'm working with people who find meditation
Speaker 1: really difficult, I think you have to work with these
Speaker 1: people on a one to one because the issue is
Speaker 1: that you can teach meditation and you have absolutely no
Speaker 1: idea what's gone on in that person's experience. And so
Speaker 1: if we're thinking of trauma informed teaching meditation one of
Speaker 1: the things we need to be doing. And I do
Speaker 1: this in groups, whether it's a big group. After I've
Speaker 1: led a meditation, I asked people to put in a
Speaker 1: chat what was it like for you, and to give
Speaker 1: them the invitation to say that that was a really
Speaker 1: difficult practice because even if the person doesn't speak, they
Speaker 1: hear that somebody else had that experience. That can be
Speaker 1: really affirming because the reality is meditation can be activating
Speaker 1: that meditation of sitting there becoming aware. I can remember
Speaker 1: when I became aware of all that papantia, all that
Speaker 1: proliferation of thought, Oh my god. And I can remember
Speaker 1: my teachers saying, just turn it down like a radio
Speaker 1: to eating myself, because who listens to the radio? Now?
Speaker 1: You know when we do what the internet that you
Speaker 1: know the way, just turn it down. And sometimes I
Speaker 1: would say to somebody that if you do meditate and
Speaker 1: everything becomes so much, you can just imagine that you're
Speaker 1: standing at the gas cooker and you're just turning the
Speaker 1: flame down, turning the flame down. Of course, if one
Speaker 1: is really activated, let's say stop, just stop, stop, get up,
Speaker 1: walk around. You know, there's so many things we can do.
Speaker 1: You can lift up your head, put your head side
Speaker 1: to side, start labeling what's in the room, lamp, window, trees, books,
Speaker 1: and just labeling what you can see. If you're somebody
Speaker 1: who wants to meditate and you're finding it really activating,
Speaker 1: and then I'm saying, work with somebody on a one
Speaker 1: to one basis so that they can teach you to
Speaker 1: meditate and hold you with what is arising in the moment,
Speaker 1: because what meditation can do is uproot what's the unconscious.
Speaker 1: It's interesting that more and more plant medicine is becoming
Speaker 1: more and more than norm for people in the recovery world.
Speaker 1: And one of the things it said about plant medicine
Speaker 1: is that it can cut through to the unconscious. Meditation
Speaker 1: can do that as well. One of the reasons why
Speaker 1: I got into meditation eric was because I could get high.
Speaker 1: I'm an addict at heart, you know. It was like, well,
Speaker 1: I came across, it was like, this is great. It
Speaker 1: doesn't cost anything, it doesn't take up any space in
Speaker 1: my luggage, and I can get high. I can remember
Speaker 1: the millennium and all my mates are talking about the
Speaker 1: different parties they are going to be going too, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, forget it. I'm going on retreat for three weeks.
Speaker 1: Because I knew I would trip, I knew that I
Speaker 1: could have altered states. Meditation has become something different for
Speaker 1: me now, and I would say that actually, what things
Speaker 1: like aahuasca can do, and eboga or m d m
Speaker 1: A or jaguar meditation has the capacity to do that.
Speaker 1: Of course, plant medicine is a lot quicker. You know,
Speaker 1: who wants to go on a month long retreat. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's the quick route. And I don't want to
Speaker 1: poo poo plant medicine because I know for some people
Speaker 1: plant medicine has really worked. It's given them their recovery.
Speaker 1: I was saying to a friend of mine the other
Speaker 1: day who was talking about a client, and I said,
Speaker 1: we cannot tell somebody what their recovery looks like. Person
Speaker 1: who comes into recovery has to be their own agent
Speaker 1: of recovery. We cannot tell them you need to go
Speaker 1: to a twelve step program, or you need to go
Speaker 1: to a Buddhist recovery program, and you need to attend
Speaker 1: so many meetings. Doesn't work like that. We have to
Speaker 1: go into dialogue, and if they choose not to go
Speaker 1: to meetings, I would hold it, and if nothing is changing,
Speaker 1: I'd say, well, this is what you're trying. Maybe you
Speaker 1: need to try something different. I think so much of
Speaker 1: early recovery, having been around this for years, that's the
Speaker 1: process I've seen with so many people is you're like, Okay,
Speaker 1: there's a problem here, all right, I'm gonna do something
Speaker 1: about it. And we do a little something and it
Speaker 1: doesn't work, and we go Okay, I cheez, all right, well,
Speaker 1: then we try something else. That's why I think that
Speaker 1: phrase in a a of keep coming back is so
Speaker 1: powerful because that's the core message to anybody. For me,
Speaker 1: is like, if you got an addiction, just keep trying,
Speaker 1: do more, do something different, but keep trying. My belief
Speaker 1: is if you keep wholeheartedly trying to the best of
Speaker 1: your ability, there is a path for you. I know.
Speaker 1: And at the same time it can be so soul destroying.
Speaker 1: I was one of those chronic relapses and it was
Speaker 1: like and in fact, in the end what made it
Speaker 1: easier for me although it was still really hard. I
Speaker 1: would say, okay, two steps forward, one step backwards, to
Speaker 1: step forwards, one step and so realizing okay, I'm still
Speaker 1: moving forward and it is so destroying. And I say
Speaker 1: the same with meditation, especially mindfulness, keep on coming back.
Speaker 1: This is the whole thing with mindfulness is coming back
Speaker 1: to the body, coming back to the breath, noticing you're distracted,
Speaker 1: because this teaches you if you can come back to
Speaker 1: your purpose, you come back to the breath, come back
Speaker 1: to the body, you notice you're distracted, and you can
Speaker 1: bring yourself back. Guarantee when you walk out of that
Speaker 1: meditation hall, and you notice that your mind is distracted
Speaker 1: by thoughts of wanting to pick up and news, you
Speaker 1: can bring yourself back to the focus. It's like walking
Speaker 1: along the street and you need to be somewhere for
Speaker 1: five o'clock and you've got ten minutes to get there,
Speaker 1: and you bump into somebody who wants to talk to you.
Speaker 1: Just say, I gotta keep on going. I've got to
Speaker 1: come back to my purpose. I've got to come back
Speaker 1: to my focus, and I got to keep on going.
Speaker 1: And that's it's really it's training the mind and think
Speaker 1: in a way. In recovery, we need to talk about training.
Speaker 1: We're just retraining the mind, and that's what we're doing.
Speaker 1: The whole thing of neuroplasticity is there for us. We're
Speaker 1: training the mind to do something different. Because some people,
Speaker 1: or many people come into recovery have been living addictive
Speaker 1: lize the majority of their adult life. Yeah, you know
Speaker 1: the points we've been making about trauma and adverse childhood experiences.
Speaker 1: Even for a lot of those people, not only have
Speaker 1: they been living with addiction for a long time. Our
Speaker 1: life before addiction was not exactly It wasn't like we
Speaker 1: had it all buttoned up and knew what we were
Speaker 1: doing at that point. You know. I mean I think
Speaker 1: about me pre addiction. I mean I think by the
Speaker 1: time I was seven or eight, I was in deep
Speaker 1: emotional trouble. You know, I just was not in a
Speaker 1: good place. It didn't manifest as addiction. I mean it
Speaker 1: manifested for me as I basically stole everything that wasn't
Speaker 1: nailed down. That was my first coping mechanism, I think,
Speaker 1: you know, but yeah, I think it is that retraining
Speaker 1: of the mind and that it takes time. Thank you
Speaker 1: for saying that. It's true that if I think of
Speaker 1: my addicted behaviors growing up in an orphanage, and we'd
Speaker 1: get pocket money in and we'll go to the sweet
Speaker 1: shop and buy all these sugar and all the sugar,
Speaker 1: and we would just eat all that sugar in one day,
Speaker 1: and it was like yeah, And and stealing was an
Speaker 1: addictive behavior. It was shoplifting. Stealing was very much an
Speaker 1: addicted behavior, which got me incarcerated. You know, I was
Speaker 1: incarcerated at the age of fifty. It was an addictive behavior. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And and sniffing, you know, sniffing shoe conditionally, you know,
Speaker 1: I never got into Evo stick because a lot of
Speaker 1: the kids were sniffing Eva stick. This is when I
Speaker 1: was like, well people sniffing Eva stick, but people are
Speaker 1: doing such crazy things on the EVAs think. It was like, nah,
Speaker 1: I was, I don't think I'm evil to evil, but
Speaker 1: I did get into sniffing shoe condition because it was
Speaker 1: like playing Space Invaders, showing my age playing Space Invaders
Speaker 1: going on a trip with the very hands still there
Speaker 1: with the cloth. You know. Yeah, There's so many parts
Speaker 1: of the eight steps that I could jump into, but
Speaker 1: I want to hit on something I've I've recently just
Speaker 1: been doing some teachings and my teaching song and a
Speaker 1: poem episodes that I do about taking refuge in the
Speaker 1: Three Jewels because I was thinking. It came to me
Speaker 1: because I was thinking about, you know, the concept of
Speaker 1: a higher power in a and when I sort of
Speaker 1: came back to get sober the second time, I did
Speaker 1: it again through a twelve step program, but I was like,
Speaker 1: I need a higher power, and you know, I really
Speaker 1: sort of thought of wouldn't have phrased as the three
Speaker 1: Jewels at that time, but that's sort of what I
Speaker 1: was taking is my higher power, And so I was
Speaker 1: wondering for a minute, you could just talk about, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of what the three jewels mean to you. Um,
Speaker 1: and I'll just you know, for people listening who've heard
Speaker 1: me say three jewels six times now. In Buddhism we
Speaker 1: say we take refuge in the three jewels, and the
Speaker 1: jewels are the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sanga. But
Speaker 1: maybe you could just say a little bit about what
Speaker 1: those things mean to you. This is a step six
Speaker 1: placing positive values at the center of our lives. So
Speaker 1: as you can see, we've secularized it rather than going
Speaker 1: for refuge. What it means for me is firstly placing
Speaker 1: the Buddha, not the human being. And what the Buddha achieved,
Speaker 1: the Buddha woke up. The Buddha achieved freedom, freedom from
Speaker 1: the prison of their minds. That's what we're placing at
Speaker 1: the center of our lives. When we go for refuge,
Speaker 1: it's it's we could say, it's a it's a reliable
Speaker 1: refuge of waking up to the truth. When we had addictions,
Speaker 1: we went to refuge to drugs or to the pawn,
Speaker 1: or to the food, or to the sex, or to
Speaker 1: the alcohol. That's what we went for refuge, to to
Speaker 1: seek refuge, to seek shelter, and so we're placing the
Speaker 1: ideal of waking up to the truth. And this is
Speaker 1: really interesting because often we hear people teaching that the
Speaker 1: Buddha vowed to gain enlightenment and the Buddha didn't, or
Speaker 1: the prince vowed to gain enlightenment and the prince didn't
Speaker 1: vow to gain enlightenment. The prince vowed to find an
Speaker 1: end of suffering. That's what the prince models for us,
Speaker 1: that there can be an end of suffering. So what
Speaker 1: we're placing at the center or going for refuge too,
Speaker 1: is an end of suffering, that there can be an
Speaker 1: end of suffering life. Again, we weren't taught that life
Speaker 1: is suffering. That was just that things we would suffer
Speaker 1: because certain things could happen, and there can be an end.
Speaker 1: And so we're going for refuge to that ideal. And
Speaker 1: then the dama are the teachings, the teachings that point
Speaker 1: to the truth, and there are many teachings. The dama
Speaker 1: really are teachings. It's the body of teachings, and it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be the body of Buddhist teachings. For
Speaker 1: those of us who are Buddhist. We do reference the
Speaker 1: Buddhist teachings, and also I reference other teachings as well,
Speaker 1: teachings that point us to the truth. And in a
Speaker 1: way you could see that do our addictions point us
Speaker 1: to the truth. These are the team jeans, We constantly
Speaker 1: habitually going back, trying to find the answer, trying to
Speaker 1: find solace, trying to find piece. One of the things
Speaker 1: I always say is Eric that as a kid, I
Speaker 1: remember the adults they were obsessed around madness. Would always
Speaker 1: be like, be careful, the men in the white coats
Speaker 1: will be coming after you. There was always this conversation
Speaker 1: about madness, and I can remember Auntie Hazel Will talk
Speaker 1: about saying the first sign of madness was talking to yourself.
Speaker 1: The second sign of madness was looking for hairs growing
Speaker 1: on a palm of your hand, and the third sign
Speaker 1: of madness was finding hairs growing on a palm your hand.
Speaker 1: If only adults had taught me that the first sign
Speaker 1: of madness was habitually doing the same thing hoping to
Speaker 1: get a different result, because that's what addiction is, is
Speaker 1: like habitually, we're doing the same thing looking for a
Speaker 1: different result, and we're just actually getting that same result.
Speaker 1: And so again the Dama is pointing us out of
Speaker 1: that hell realm of addiction is pointing us in a
Speaker 1: direction of freedom. Teachings that point is in the direction
Speaker 1: of freedom. And then the vigils sometimes are called the
Speaker 1: triple gem, the same good of community. And in a way,
Speaker 1: it's firstly to remind us that there are people who
Speaker 1: have woken up to the truth. There are people who
Speaker 1: have liberated. We can talk about small liberation, big liberation.
Speaker 1: There are people who have put down the alcohol, who
Speaker 1: have put down the drugs, who put down the pawn
Speaker 1: who don't pick up. That is freedom and reminding us
Speaker 1: that there are community people who have done that, who
Speaker 1: have gone beyond, and also to remind us that it's
Speaker 1: so much easier to do it in community, because I
Speaker 1: think one of the things that holds many of us
Speaker 1: back who had addictions is the shame of asking for help.
Speaker 1: We can do it ourselves, and we do it with
Speaker 1: ourselves turning towards the drugs. If we think of the
Speaker 1: Prince's enlightenment, how the Prince became woke is because the
Speaker 1: Prince actually did ask for help. The Prince touched the
Speaker 1: ground up being. When Mara came into the Prince, like
Speaker 1: the negative, Mara represents these mental states. The Prince was,
Speaker 1: as selled by every mental state, had to see through them,
Speaker 1: not to be waived by them. And that last one
Speaker 1: of doubt, and we can all have doubt. Doubt can
Speaker 1: unhinge us. And in that moment, the Prince touches the
Speaker 1: ground and says, let the earth Goddess be my witness.
Speaker 1: We are interconnected. We need to do it in community.
Speaker 1: The majority of us. There are those few people who
Speaker 1: seem to be able to do it on their own,
Speaker 1: but the majority of us, we need to do it
Speaker 1: in community. That's where I see going for refugees, placing
Speaker 1: these three things at the center of our lives. That
Speaker 1: doesn't mean to say that our relationships aren't important or
Speaker 1: our work isn't important. In a way, we could see
Speaker 1: that what is our relationship pointing to what is our
Speaker 1: work pointing too? And then come into this thing of
Speaker 1: higher power for me, mindfulness, the breath is higher power.
Speaker 1: The breath is higher power. Loving kindness is higher power.
Speaker 1: There's a line that you have in this section of
Speaker 1: the book that I love you said. I'm also not
Speaker 1: saying that you have to place these three ideals talking
Speaker 1: about the three jewels at the center of your life
Speaker 1: to overcome addiction. I am saying that you have to
Speaker 1: find positive and healthy things to put at the center
Speaker 1: of your life if you want recovery. And I think
Speaker 1: that is just so well said, you know, because it's
Speaker 1: one thing to say, all right, I'm taking this thing away.
Speaker 1: I'm taking away your coping mechanism is in essence, what's
Speaker 1: happening to us in recovery. Okay, coping mechanism, even though
Speaker 1: it's not really working or it's actively destroying, you know,
Speaker 1: at least by the point I was at, take it away.
Speaker 1: That's not enough. Now what becomes the center of my life?
Speaker 1: Because I've taken what was the center of my life,
Speaker 1: everything oriented around getting high. Now that's gone. And so
Speaker 1: I love the way you know you're saying, but you
Speaker 1: do have to find some positive and healthy things to
Speaker 1: put in the center of your life if you want recovery.
Speaker 1: And I think that is such a truism. And it
Speaker 1: may simply be a meeting. It may simply be going
Speaker 1: to a meeting. Yeah, Placing meetings at the center of
Speaker 1: one's lives. Meetings are very powerful because you know, the
Speaker 1: one thing that the Twelve Steps has I nearly said,
Speaker 1: taught us. One thing that twelve Steps brilliant at is
Speaker 1: the power of story, of telling a story so you
Speaker 1: can be heard, so that people can hear your story. Well, Valerie,
Speaker 1: we are at the end of our time, but thank
Speaker 1: you so much for taking the time to come on.
Speaker 1: I have really enjoyed chatting with you and enjoyed your
Speaker 1: book and all the great work that you're doing. Well.
Speaker 1: Have links in the show notes to your website. I
Speaker 1: know you've got other books that are out. I think
Speaker 1: you've got another one that's coming out. I'm not quite
Speaker 1: sure what data comes out. Yeah, what date is the
Speaker 1: new book out? I have a book that I've just edited,
Speaker 1: an anthology, which will be coming out in June July.
Speaker 1: But I just wanted to say with the Eight Step
Speaker 1: Recovery that there are meetings in several continents, So do
Speaker 1: look on my website or Buddhist Recovery dot org where
Speaker 1: there are many, many different kinds of Buddhist recovery meetings.
Speaker 1: So check it out see what an eight Step recovery
Speaker 1: meeting is like. Yeah, yes, I cannot encourage meetings and
Speaker 1: community enough for people who are trying to find recovery.
Speaker 1: It was and is so important to me. Again, thank
Speaker 1: you Valerie so much for coming on for the work
Speaker 1: that you're doing in the world and spending some time
Speaker 1: with us. Thank you. If what you just heard was
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