1 00:00:03,360 --> 00:00:06,800 Speaker 1: Hi, Welcome back to the Carol Marcowood Show on iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: I'm introducing a new segment today where I start some 3 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: episodes off with answering your questions that you could submit 4 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: anonymously through the form that I post on X today. 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,480 Speaker 1: I'm joined for this segment by my good friend, co 6 00:00:20,560 --> 00:00:24,040 Speaker 1: host of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show, Buck Sexton. 7 00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 2: Hi, Buck, So nice to have you on. 8 00:00:26,320 --> 00:00:28,639 Speaker 3: Hey, thank you, Carol. Appreciate you having me. 9 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: You and I get into all kinds of topics and 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: a lot of times we talk about relationships and dating 11 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 1: and marriage and friendships and all that kind of stuff, 12 00:00:38,560 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: and I think our conversations on it are smart and 13 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: can be helpful to other people. So I figured why 14 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: not let the Carol marco Wood Show audience in on it. 15 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: And We're going to get started with a real doozy today. 16 00:00:52,320 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: This question. I got a lot of questions. 17 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: I got a lot of responses to my ex post 18 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: about you coming on and joining me for this segment. 19 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: This question, I was like, this is going to be 20 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: the first question I ask for sure, Here we go. 21 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: Our first question was submitted anonymously, and this person writes, Hi, Carol, 22 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 1: new listener to both of your shows, which I found 23 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,640 Speaker 1: through Clay and book, and while I like your approach, 24 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: I was hesitant to write in this one because I 25 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:21,560 Speaker 1: felt like I needed a man's opinion. 26 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:24,479 Speaker 2: When you mentioned you were doing this. 27 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 1: With Buck, I figured it would be good to hear 28 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: both the female and male perspective on my problem. I 29 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: got married four months ago, and a month before our wedding, 30 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 1: it came out that my girlfriend of three years had 31 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 1: slept with someone else several times in the first few months. 32 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 2: Of our relationship. 33 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: I say came out because she didn't tell me. I 34 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: learned this information in a surprising way, which made everything worse. 35 00:01:47,480 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: She says we weren't exclusive then, which is true, but 36 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 1: she was applying pressure to make us exclusive, and while 37 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: I was resistant, I also wasn't sleeping with anyone else. 38 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,240 Speaker 1: I'm sickened and not sure I can get over it. 39 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: The first few first four months of our marriage have 40 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: been okay, and I do love her, but this is 41 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: stuck in the front of my mind. What do you 42 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: think about this book? 43 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 4: Well, I think that the situation, the clarity offered there, 44 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 4: or the clarification is very important, which is why why 45 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 4: does it bother you, I mean in our I'm gonna 46 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 4: I'm gonna sort of back into this one. 47 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 2: Right, all right, I feel like we might disagree right 48 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:27,959 Speaker 2: off the bat. 49 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 3: Okay, I'm going back into this. 50 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 4: We we have a generally speaking, a dating culture in America, 51 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 4: you know, for let's say, adults post college, where you know. 52 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,520 Speaker 3: People people sleep with people. That is the thing that 53 00:02:45,560 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 3: is happening on a regular basis. I've heard about Yeah, 54 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 3: I've heard. I've heard rumors and stories about this. Uh. 55 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 4: And the expectation I think that most people have in 56 00:02:53,960 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 4: dating is that you have a there is a conversation 57 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 4: and understanding that you have at some point like hey, 58 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,239 Speaker 4: and this is for you know, emotional and relationship reasons, 59 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 4: also for I think health reasons in some context too. 60 00:03:06,080 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 5: Uh. 61 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 3: You know, are we you know, are we dating? 62 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 4: Are we exclusively seeing each other? And you know that 63 00:03:13,919 --> 00:03:17,640 Speaker 4: I think is very That makes a lot of sense. 64 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 4: And I think that the issue that comes up here is, Okay, well, 65 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 4: if you're not, if you haven't entered in that contract, 66 00:03:24,440 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 4: so to speak, that verbal contract, what are your expectations? 67 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: So we are going to disagree, I see, we know 68 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: we are, Oh, we are we are Okay, keep going, 69 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: because I'll tell you my perspective. 70 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 4: Look, I think that you know, if you I think 71 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 4: that if you're playing the field, then you're a single person. 72 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 4: You know, you conduct yourself, hopefully male or female, as 73 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 4: with kindness and with respect for you for your fellow 74 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 4: human beings in these relationships you're in. But I think 75 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 4: that until you've had the talk, uh, there's no expectation 76 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 4: of I mean, I think until you had a discussion 77 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 4: about monogamy. If you're two people that haven't been monogamous, 78 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 4: like or haven't been celibate before, that it doesn't It's 79 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 4: so now I understand why someone might be kind of 80 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 4: emotion by the way, I don't know I was going 81 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 4: to get this kind of question is yeah, that's right. 82 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: I asked you, do you want to hear the question? 83 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: And you were like, no, I got this. 84 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 4: No, I think I think this is not nom There 85 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 4: are rules, and the rules are you have a conversation 86 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:26,840 Speaker 4: about exclusiveness and monogamy, and until that conversation occurs, you 87 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 4: try to be respectful of the person. But they can't 88 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 4: have expectations beyond what has been stated and understood. 89 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:35,559 Speaker 1: So I'm going to have to disagree here, And maybe 90 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,760 Speaker 1: it's because I was in You know, I haven't been 91 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: in the dating world in a long time. I've been 92 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: married for over fifteen years. 93 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:45,160 Speaker 2: It's definitely possible that things have changed. 94 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 1: I get that, but I will say that this guy, 95 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 1: it's clear that it's eating him up. 96 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 2: And I don't know personally. 97 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: If I found out today that my husband slept with 98 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: somebody in the first few months we were dating, I 99 00:04:58,279 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 1: don't know that I would get over it. 100 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 2: I really know. 101 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 3: That's kind of a different, isn't that a little. 102 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 2: Bit when he's saying what do I do? And I 103 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 2: not that I'm saying leave your wife. 104 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,120 Speaker 1: Look, you know, nobody's pushing any divorce here, but I 105 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 1: don't know that I would be able to get over it. 106 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 2: And if you're the kind of person that. 107 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: Will not be able to proceed in this marriage and 108 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 1: be happy in your life and it's going to eat 109 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: your live, which it would totally eat me alive. 110 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 2: I don't know he is married. 111 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,559 Speaker 1: He's married. He's married for four months, and he found 112 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: out a month before he got married, so he's only 113 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 1: had this knowledge for five months, but four of those 114 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: they've been married. And I don't know I would not 115 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: be able to live with it. And I look, I 116 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: know people forgive and what else? 117 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 4: What does that mean then, Carol, I'm going to cross 118 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 4: examine you if you wouldn't be able to handle it, 119 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 4: but you don't want divorce, Well what does that mean? 120 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 3: By the way, are the kids here too? 121 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: Because I always I mean, I don't know because it 122 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: was somebody submitted this s anonymously. He didn't give any name, 123 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: so I have no clue about who it is. But 124 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,360 Speaker 1: I so no because it's only four months, right, but they. 125 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 2: Dated for three years? But ill, let's go with no kids, right? 126 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 2: But I I just yeah, again, I'm not. 127 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,160 Speaker 1: Going to divorced. You're not going to get me on 128 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: a technicality, I'm not. 129 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 3: Well, there's what's on ethic, were on a break? 130 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 4: No, there's what's unethical, and then there's what you can handle. Yes, right, 131 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 4: those are those are different things, right? Or rather, those 132 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,600 Speaker 4: aren't necessary I should say those aren't necessarily the same thing. 133 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,840 Speaker 4: I mean because here here, for example, it's like, okay, well, 134 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 4: what also are the rules here for when people are 135 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 4: in the first stages of going I've heard rumors there 136 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 4: are guys and girls who are men and women who 137 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 4: are popular with the opposite sex, and when they are dating, 138 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 4: they will go out with different people over the course 139 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 4: of a week, and that will even include if they 140 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 4: kind of like somebody but they're not sure. 141 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 3: Do you have to disclose like it should? 142 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 4: Should you sit down with somebody on a second date 143 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 4: and be like, hey, I'm really enjoying this just you know, 144 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 4: some other guy last night because I just want to 145 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 4: be totally honest with you and transparent. 146 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 3: But I mean, you know, no, right, people no longer 147 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 3: have the. 148 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: Who I've been hooking up with during this time period. Talk, 149 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: is that just not something that goes on when you 150 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 1: when you do enter into a formal relationship. 151 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 4: I mean, my look, my my sense of this is 152 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 4: it's a lot cleaner for for everybody involved. My my 153 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 4: personal belief is that you know, if you're sleeping with somebody, 154 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 4: that's the person you should be sleeping with. 155 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 2: And that is that crazy, right, But that's the whole thing. 156 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: He didn't want to be in a relationship, but he 157 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: also wasn't sleeping with anyone else. 158 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 4: So but I do think that you know, it's you 159 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 4: get into gray area with like, what what are expectations? 160 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 4: I mean, also the notion that it is eating him 161 00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 4: up so much. I mean, I think that marriage and 162 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 4: I'm a new I'm like relative newly we. 163 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 3: Compared to Carol. 164 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 4: I think that marriage there's such an elevation, and you know, 165 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:58,400 Speaker 4: it's obviously in the Catholic faith, it's a sacrament, and 166 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:02,880 Speaker 4: it's considered something so far beyond dating that if you've 167 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 4: taken that step of marriage with somebody and within the 168 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 4: marriage they have been a good spouse, and you think 169 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 4: you're building a good life together, you know, the dating 170 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 4: phase is a different thing with entirely different expectations, and 171 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 4: I think that people should understand that at some level, right, 172 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:20,520 Speaker 4: I mean, now, whether that means you can go around 173 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 4: and act like. 174 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 3: A fluzy, I think that's the isn't that in the forties? Yeah, 175 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 3: I am. 176 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 4: I am anti acting like a fluzy out there. But 177 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 4: I will tell you that even as from a male 178 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:38,959 Speaker 4: perspective in the dating world, and I was in the 179 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 4: dating world for many, many many years because I didn't 180 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 4: get married until I was forty, from the male perspective, 181 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 4: it's actually a challenge sometimes to slow down women who 182 00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 4: want and it's going to sound very like let me 183 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,320 Speaker 4: tell you about the challenges of life some of us 184 00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 4: have had. But sometimes women want to accelerate the physical 185 00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 4: part of the relationship because they view it as like 186 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 4: you knowing things in a bit more. 187 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 1: Oh interesting, As a. 188 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,520 Speaker 4: Guy, you're in this position where it's like, well, I 189 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 4: don't want I actually don't want to like be. 190 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:09,839 Speaker 3: The you know, fust of all your guy friends, I 191 00:09:09,880 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 3: did not want to have sex with un Like Yeah, 192 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 3: and that can be its own problem. 193 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 4: So, but sometimes women are the ones that actually are 194 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 4: really along the physical part of the relationship a lot more. 195 00:09:21,320 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 4: And I also believe in this. Maybe it's controversial these days, 196 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 4: athough it shouldn't be at all because of like all 197 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 4: of human history, the physical and chemical reactions that women 198 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,200 Speaker 4: get from that level of intimacy I think are just look, 199 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 4: they take more, they take more biological risk, and I 200 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 4: think they have more built in biochemical attachment than men do. 201 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 4: And I think that's pretty clear. 202 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 3: Even though so even more. 203 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: So if he's like thinking that back to his girlfriend 204 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:52,240 Speaker 1: in the first few months of them dating, sleeping multiple 205 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,080 Speaker 1: times with somebody else. Okay, so what's our advice to 206 00:09:55,240 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: this anonymous person? I'm saying, if you know yourself and 207 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 1: you don't think that you can live with yourself four 208 00:10:03,480 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: months as to the marriage. I think you have to 209 00:10:05,280 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: make a very serious call. Don't let it be four 210 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: years into the marriage where you decide you can't live 211 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: with it anymore. 212 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 4: I think if you have somebody who and whether it's 213 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 4: a priest or a rabbi, perhaps a trusted intermediary. 214 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 2: Yes, us, that's this is who he's coming to. 215 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 4: Well, but I mean to sit down with his spouse 216 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 4: and that person and just really have a really have 217 00:10:29,400 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 4: a conversation about it. But you know, I mean, I'm 218 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 4: inclined to say I think I think you in this 219 00:10:39,720 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 4: situation unless he's unhappy in the marriage itself. I mean, 220 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 4: he's holding somebody to a standard of I think at 221 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 4: some level it's unfair to hold somebody with a standard 222 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 4: that you didn't set and that you just figured now 223 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 4: that technicality, yeah versus fair versus Look, there's also things 224 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 4: we don't really know here, Okay, I mean, he says, 225 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 4: in the early stage of our relationship, did did his 226 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:06,320 Speaker 4: wife sleep with somebody when they were on the like 227 00:11:06,360 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 4: second or third date. 228 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: Well, he says that she was pushing for them to 229 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: make it official, and he was resistant. And during that 230 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: time where she wanted to be official with him. 231 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 5: This is what else. 232 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 3: This is what I mean, this is what happened. This 233 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 3: is what happens with guys. Uh. 234 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 4: And this doesn't get talked about very much, but I 235 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 4: do know of this from my male friends in the 236 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,839 Speaker 4: dating world and from what I you know, was observing 237 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 4: out there in the world. Is if you're a guy 238 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 4: and you're with a girl who is who is you know, 239 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 4: sort of high value a lot of a lot of 240 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 4: men are interested in and she's like, let's go, let's 241 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 4: take this to the next level, and you slow that 242 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 4: down physically. In a lot of cases, what happens is 243 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 4: the guy who's in the number number two slots, so 244 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 4: to speak, is like, oh, I'll just I'll escalate, like 245 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 4: I'm I'm happy to be a to be a you know, fellain. 246 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 2: Oh this is all horrible. 247 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 1: I'm so glad that I'm not damagating. 248 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 3: Really, it's really it's carnage out there, man. I mean, 249 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 3: the dating world is a lot. 250 00:12:06,840 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 4: It's because the online stuff has all sort of commoditized 251 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 4: it and everyone has endless options and they think they 252 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 4: have a video game. No, it's like a video game 253 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 4: and it really has. It has made it unfortunately all 254 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 4: too easy, which I think has really all aspects of 255 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,560 Speaker 4: it are sort of too straightforward now and too simple, 256 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,040 Speaker 4: and I think that has really bad ramification. So I 257 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 4: feel for this guy for sure, and I get that, 258 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 4: you know, if we could have like a sort of 259 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 4: a lighthearted moment about it. I mean, it's like, didn't 260 00:12:35,520 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 4: Jerry and Seinfeld find out that a girl like Newman 261 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 4: broke up with a girl that was beautiful that he's that's. 262 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 1: Different looking out your girlfriend slept with Newman? 263 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 4: No, you know, I'm just saying like there was that, 264 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:50,959 Speaker 4: you know, Jerry, she was like beautiful and he thought 265 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:51,600 Speaker 4: she was really cool. 266 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 3: But it's like, oh, man, no, you can't live with it. 267 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: If it's something you can't live with, you might have 268 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 1: to let them go. And I hate starting the first 269 00:12:58,640 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: episode being like, hey, maybe break up your marriage. 270 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 5: But. 271 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 3: Kind of, you know, I really like the marriages for life. 272 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: Unless I know, I know, but this is like, but 273 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 1: it's also like if you if it's not going to work, 274 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: like stop it as soon as you can, don't don't 275 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: let it, don't go have kids and go, you know, 276 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: for years and years holding this grudge I think you 277 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: don't let it go or you know, get off the 278 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: pot whatever. 279 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 4: I think having a conversation though, that's what I meant about, 280 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 4: like the third party or you know, the uh, you know, 281 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 4: marriage counselor or whatever it is you want to say, 282 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 4: and what we have it because I think he may 283 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 4: be able to reach a point where he realizes, like 284 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:41,679 Speaker 4: what she did when she didn't really know you is 285 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 4: not a reflection necessarily of of her feelings for you 286 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 4: now and how she will be as a spouse, like 287 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 4: when you've made a vow. You know, there's a difference 288 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 4: between I think someone's going to do something and I've 289 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 4: given someone my word that I will do something. And 290 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:58,959 Speaker 4: I think that's very important, right, You're right. I think 291 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 4: civilization is kind of built on that. You know, I 292 00:14:01,920 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 4: keep my word, and my word is my bond. I 293 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 4: give you my word about this. I pledge myself to you. 294 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 4: If you're assuming something. 295 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 3: That's a different it's a different situation, so you know 296 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,320 Speaker 3: you're I don't know. I feel like I agree with 297 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:15,319 Speaker 3: you on so many things. 298 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 2: I'm psyched with you, very hard ass on this. 299 00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 4: Like. 300 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 3: Out a little bit on this one. 301 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: Started our first segment of. 302 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 3: My salmon colored T shirt. 303 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 2: Which salmon colored T shirt? Actually, it looks very good 304 00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:31,400 Speaker 2: on you very much, suit too. 305 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: Thank you for coming on buck Sexton for our first 306 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: segment where we give advice to my listeners. Please write 307 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: into the Carol Markowitz Show at gmail dot com, or 308 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: if you want to do it anonymously, find my form 309 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: on x I repost it all the time. 310 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 2: Stay tuned for my interview with Ashley Rinsburg coming up. 311 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: Hi, and welcome back to the Carol Markowitz Show on iHeartRadio. 312 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: My guest today is Ashley Rinsburg. Ashley is a senior 313 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: editor at Pirate Wires and the author of The Gray 314 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: Lady Winked How The New York Times misreporting, distortions, and 315 00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: fabrications radically alter history. 316 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 2: So nice to have you on, Ashley. 317 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 5: Thank you, Carol. I'm happy to be with you. 318 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: I've been reading you for a while, and I would say, 319 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: out of all my guests, I know least about you. 320 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: I literally when you came on, we were chatting right 321 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: before this, I wasn't sure if you were going to 322 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:24,200 Speaker 1: have a British accent. I don't know. 323 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 2: I literally know nothing about you. 324 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: If you if you wouldn't mind, but you do live 325 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: in London, and I don't know why I expected you 326 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 1: to be British. Tell me about yourself. How did you 327 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: get into this, you know, whole thing that we do. 328 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 5: Oh wow, Yeah, So I'm I'm American, and well, I grew. 329 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 3: Up in America. 330 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 5: I was born in South Africa, and I was after 331 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 5: university doing that kind of figuring it out thing, and 332 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:03,240 Speaker 5: decided to get a job on a sailing yacht as 333 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 5: a deckhand, so helping move the boat from Italy to Greece, 334 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 5: so southern Italy. We sailed it for like two months 335 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 5: with me and me and another hand, and it's a 336 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,640 Speaker 5: nice route. It was a great route, and you learn 337 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 5: you're you're literally traveling backward through time to the land 338 00:16:21,760 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 5: of Odysseus, sailing through the Ionian Islands, sailing through the 339 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 5: ag and the Corinth Canal. And we got the boat 340 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 5: to its destination and it was time for me to 341 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 5: move on. I didn't want to go back to the US. 342 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 5: I've been living at San Francisco working at Internet Archive, 343 00:16:35,480 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 5: which is the wayback machine, guys. Yeah, So I moved 344 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 5: onwards towards Israel, and I went to Israel and I 345 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:45,840 Speaker 5: stayed there for a while, and it was there that 346 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 5: I was reading through books and just leafing through stuff 347 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 5: that you find. 348 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 3: There's a lot of books. 349 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 5: Around Israel, and I found this book about the Second 350 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 5: World War World War called The Rise and Fall of 351 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 5: the Third Reich. And in that book was a little 352 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 5: tidbit about the New York Times saying that on the 353 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,640 Speaker 5: day that hostilities broke out, the New York Times reported 354 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 5: Nazi propaganda saying that Poland had invaded Germany. And I 355 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:14,960 Speaker 5: was like, excuse me, what crazy New York Times lead 356 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 5: story Poland had invaded Germany? Like, how could anybody think 357 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 5: that in nineteen thirty nine? How could the New York 358 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:24,959 Speaker 5: Times think that in nineteen thirty nine. So I started 359 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 5: to wonder how many more errors of that order the 360 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:31,520 Speaker 5: New York Times had made in history? How many times 361 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 5: did it misreporting actually change the course of history? That 362 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 5: was the That was the bar for the book. I'm like, 363 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 5: I'm going to do a chapter if it changed history 364 00:17:38,560 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 5: in some meaningful way, not just some piece of gossip. 365 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 5: So that became the book, The Gray Lady Winked. I 366 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 5: wrote it in Tel Aviv. 367 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:50,720 Speaker 2: Wow, So you know, on the Amazon page. 368 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,840 Speaker 1: There's kind of the subhead think a newspaper can't be 369 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 1: responsible for mass murder. Think again, that's I mean, a 370 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 1: powerful statement, but I don't think it's over And when 371 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,360 Speaker 1: we're talking about the New York Times, you. 372 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 5: Know, if you look at a case like Ukraine famine, 373 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,600 Speaker 5: which they completely fell down on, and it was done 374 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 5: more or less deliberately, and I believe it was done 375 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 5: not just with the complicity of the New York Times 376 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 5: institution for getting Walter Durant as an individual who's the 377 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 5: one who'd made the lie, who denied that there was 378 00:18:22,359 --> 00:18:25,719 Speaker 5: a famine in the Ukraine in the early thirties, and 379 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:28,120 Speaker 5: it all got shuffled onto him. They just blamed him. 380 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 5: I don't think that was the case. I think it 381 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:33,439 Speaker 5: was all about the New York Times ownership and business interest, 382 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 5: as it always is with The New York Times. We 383 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 5: factor out that it's owned by a family, the Sulzburgers. 384 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 5: It's a dynasty. It's one of the last great remaining 385 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 5: American industrial economic dynasties. We just don't talk about it. 386 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 5: That's the people who own that, who control that newspaper, 387 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 5: and for them, it was all about money and it 388 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 5: was all about getting access to the Russian market, and 389 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 5: they denied it because that was in their interest to 390 00:18:56,760 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 5: do so. So in that sense, if people had known 391 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 5: that this was happening, if people had known that Stalin 392 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 5: was perpetrating mass starvation to the effect of five million people, 393 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,480 Speaker 5: it could have changed things for America. It could have 394 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,479 Speaker 5: changed things for American geopolitics, could have changed a lot 395 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 5: of the decisions that were made at the time about 396 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 5: Communist Russia and how we would treat Communist Russia, whether 397 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 5: as a legitimate government or as this evil unknown, which 398 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:24,239 Speaker 5: is actually what it was. 399 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,120 Speaker 1: So you're in Israel, you find this book, you decide, 400 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: you know, how many more stories are there in the 401 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: New York Times. But if you're not already a writer, 402 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: how do you make that leap to writing a book. 403 00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 5: It was just one of those things that almost happened 404 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:41,960 Speaker 5: on its own, which like I've written lots of different 405 00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 5: things in my day, including books, and that almost never happens. 406 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 5: And it just was. I just enjoyed it so much. 407 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 5: I didn't think about it. You know, like when you 408 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 5: hear great like athletes, I mean not to say I'm great, 409 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:55,879 Speaker 5: but when you hear athletes talk. 410 00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 2: About you can be great. 411 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 5: I mean, maybe one day I will be, but you know, 412 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,280 Speaker 5: they they forget themselves in that in that activity, and 413 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 5: that's kind of how it was. I forgot myself and 414 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 5: I was just that's all I did. 415 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 3: I didn't. 416 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 5: I mean, there was always, you know, stuff going on 417 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 5: in Tel Aviv and the nightlife and everything happening around you. 418 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,919 Speaker 5: But for the most part, I just went to a 419 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 5: cafe every day on DISNEYV Street and sat there and 420 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 5: wrote the book and did as much research. 421 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 3: As I could. 422 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: So what would have been Plan B if you didn't 423 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: become a writer, What would have been an alternate path 424 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: for you? 425 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,399 Speaker 2: Would you have stayed in? Like was it tech that 426 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 2: you were in? 427 00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:33,080 Speaker 3: I was never. 428 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 5: I was never, I would say in tech, I was 429 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 5: always around it. Plan B, Oh my god. I honestly 430 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:42,399 Speaker 5: I think I tried to Plan B and C and 431 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 5: D and E n F and they all failed. So 432 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 5: I just had to go back to Plan A, which 433 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 5: is being a writer. Yeah, I think I. 434 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 2: Would just kind of not stay on the on the ship, 435 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 2: not be ad. 436 00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 5: Backhand, I did think about it at that moment, like 437 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,760 Speaker 5: because it's something people do, but it just felt like 438 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 5: like standing in place a little bit too much, like 439 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 5: you would just kind of get lost in that, and 440 00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 5: there was just something that felt like it was pulling 441 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 5: me forward towards some kind of what turned out to 442 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:12,680 Speaker 5: be like, you know, quite a chaotic, like coming from 443 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 5: the tranquility of Greece and then into Tel Aviv in 444 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:18,360 Speaker 5: just at the end of the Intifada, the second Inada, 445 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:23,719 Speaker 5: the tail tale end of it, and you know, a massive, 446 00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 5: massive shift. But when that was really meaningful? 447 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 2: What do you consider your beat? 448 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: At pirate Wires? 449 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 5: I cover at this point a lot of I mean, 450 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 5: some just plain tech, but mostly the thing I do, 451 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 5: or at least that I'm known best for, is information 452 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:44,680 Speaker 5: information warfare type stuff. Right now, what's happening on Wikipedia 453 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 5: where you know, you're seeing entire topic areas hijacked by 454 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 5: essentially edit gangs. Some of them are let's say, pro Hamas, 455 00:21:53,359 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 5: some of them are pro China, some of them are 456 00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 5: whatever they are, and they're able to completely contort all 457 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 5: the articles in that given area, and nobody really knows that, 458 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 5: and it's all getting fed into the LLLM SIN it's 459 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 5: getting pinned into Google as the top result and we're 460 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 5: just not aware of it. So a lot of that 461 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 5: kind of story where things are happening on these big 462 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,239 Speaker 5: platforms and they're very, very significant, but no one has 463 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 5: any idea that it's even happened. 464 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,120 Speaker 1: How do you let the American people know how big 465 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: of a problem that is. I just feel like the 466 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:27,600 Speaker 1: average person would be like, well, so don't use dy Wikipedia, 467 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: just use something else. But it's kind of hard to 468 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: convey to people that Wikipedia is this giant thing that 469 00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: needs to be somewhat correct and it needs to be 470 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: somewhat fair. Do you find that argument difficult to make 471 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:42,720 Speaker 1: to kind of the normies? 472 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 2: I don't think. 473 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 5: I don't think I've tried to yet, and I don't 474 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 5: know that anyone else has either. I think it's probably actually, 475 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 5: i'll take it back. The one person who has is 476 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:56,520 Speaker 5: Elon Musk, has actually really done that in a big 477 00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 5: way as you would from him. I don't think that 478 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 5: story's really been told, and I think it's confusing for 479 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 5: a lot of people when they see it, Like when 480 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 5: Eland's like Wikipedia is broken, he's drawing on so much 481 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 5: knowledge that he has so much institutional experience with the 482 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 5: entire ecosystem, not just Wikipedia, that for him it's obvious, 483 00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 5: but for most people. I would say ninety nine point 484 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,880 Speaker 5: nine percent of people and sometimes including myself. You don't 485 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 5: quite understand what it means until you really dive into 486 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,000 Speaker 5: the details of how it worked and why it works 487 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:29,320 Speaker 5: that way, and who decided it should work that way, 488 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 5: And that's when you start to really open your eyes. 489 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 5: And I think it's about telling that story to as 490 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 5: many people as you can. 491 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:42,719 Speaker 1: Is it governments that are gaming Wikipedia or individuals? 492 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:49,400 Speaker 5: It's everybody. It's everybody that's involved in gaming every other 493 00:23:49,480 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 5: platform and gaming the entire digital information ecosystem. So that's governments, 494 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 5: that's terror organizations, that's people aligned to those types of groups. 495 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 5: It's corporate, it's just individuals, it's business interests. There is 496 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 5: so much going on underneath the hood of Wikipedia. There 497 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 5: is a massive, let's say, pay to play cottage industry 498 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 5: where if you want changes to an article, if you 499 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,320 Speaker 5: want an article created or removed, you're going to pay 500 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 5: these people illicitly. It's against the rules, but it is 501 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 5: absolutely diffuse, like it happens just every single day on 502 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,639 Speaker 5: a massive scale, and everybody knows it except for the 503 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:28,600 Speaker 5: people on the other end of this thing that the 504 00:24:28,720 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 5: regular user doesn't know any of this and the people 505 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 5: on the inside know all of it. 506 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: Is there a Wikipedia book in you? Is that the 507 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 1: next kind of topic? 508 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 5: I think, you know, I think right now my instinct 509 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 5: is that, like people really like video, and I think 510 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 5: that's an amazing way to tell this particular story. Yeah, 511 00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 5: I think it can be chopped up. I think it 512 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 5: can be shown to be if you show it graphically 513 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 5: sometimes like visually, it just becomes more accessible to people. 514 00:24:59,040 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 5: And that so maybe that's what's first. 515 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 2: What do you worry about. 516 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 5: I worry about a lot of this stuff. I worry 517 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,640 Speaker 5: about the propaganda. I mean, I go on social media 518 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,960 Speaker 5: and I'm just I'm flabbergasted. And this is we live 519 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:11,920 Speaker 5: our lives inside of the media right now, we live 520 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 5: on lives inside of social media. And I go onto 521 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 5: X number of and not to use the word X 522 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 5: number two coincidentally, but you just see such insane stuff happening. 523 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 5: You see so much of it, and you know so 524 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 5: much of it is just completely fake, just bought and 525 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 5: paid for. It's it's sometimes it's just random, and sometimes 526 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 5: it's ideological. Sometimes it's warfare, and sometimes it's just business. 527 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,680 Speaker 5: But it's so much of it, and you're like this 528 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 5: is what we consume, this is what our children are consuming. Yeah, 529 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 5: what is going to happen? How are we going to 530 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,560 Speaker 5: continue to be to educate ourselves about the world, to 531 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 5: communicate and connect with each other freely when you've got 532 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:54,040 Speaker 5: this thing in the middle that's real, just garbage, but 533 00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,479 Speaker 5: garbage screaming about its own right to free speech. 534 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 2: We're going to take a quick break and be right 535 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 2: back on the Carol Marcowitch Show. 536 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,280 Speaker 1: It's interesting because you say, you know, we are so 537 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 1: inside the media, and I think you and I certainly are, 538 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: But like how much of this filters out? And I 539 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: guess this is something that I think about a lot, 540 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 1: like what normal people see and think. 541 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,760 Speaker 2: How much of it is crossing over? 542 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: And I'm definitely worried about my kids in the future 543 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,360 Speaker 1: and that kind of thing also, But do you think. 544 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 2: That we're seeing kind of. 545 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: Not a rebuff of this kind of thing, but definitely 546 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 1: somewhat moving away from it, especially in the younger generations 547 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: where they're not on X all day, they're not consuming 548 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: what we're consuming all day. 549 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 5: That's true, and I think there's definitely some new path 550 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 5: that's being forged right now by the younger generation. Of 551 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 5: users online. I don't know. 552 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 3: Exactly what it is. 553 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 5: I know it's a lot about messaging, and that's like 554 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 5: primarily what they're doing. But I think these forms of 555 00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:01,080 Speaker 5: information they sort of seep into the ground, so the 556 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 5: ideas seep in, the language, seeps in, people start thinking 557 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 5: in the way that they talk, and I think it 558 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 5: has that effect anyways, maybe not a total effect, but 559 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 5: it's there. 560 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 2: Are you optimistic about I don't know, the future. I 561 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,840 Speaker 2: guess in general or we're sort of in a real. 562 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,880 Speaker 1: Moment of optimism in the US right now. Every guest 563 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 1: I kind of have had recently is sort of like 564 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: looking to the future very positively. It definitely is the 565 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: Donald Trump election very vibe shift. You don't seem as optimistic. 566 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 5: It seems, Yeah, it seems like people are just at 567 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 5: loggerheads with each other all the time. Not just in 568 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 5: the US, I think it's all over the place. And 569 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,239 Speaker 5: when you see that kind of like people not just 570 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 5: fighting on social media, like fighting almost sounds too quoint. 571 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 3: It's war. 572 00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 5: It's in turns seen war all the time, and you think, 573 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 5: how can you ever resolve that? You know, how how 574 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 5: does that actually get resolved into something that's at least 575 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 5: a discourse. And I actually have no idea. 576 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 2: Can I get resolved? 577 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:12,480 Speaker 1: I guess I like I I almost feel like, yeah, 578 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: they'll they'll keep fighting, but the rest of the world 579 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: will move on without them. 580 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 2: Do you not think so? 581 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 5: Yeah? You know that might be. I think you know 582 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 5: they say Twitter is not real life or x is 583 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 5: not real life? 584 00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, do you think it is? 585 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 4: Oh? 586 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: You do agree? 587 00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:28,440 Speaker 2: That's not No, it's not real. 588 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's totally fake life. It's the fakest of fake life. 589 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,600 Speaker 1: But yeah, we spent a lot of time on it. 590 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 5: And buying into it. 591 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 2: Yet I yet I refresh it all day long. What 592 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 2: comes next? 593 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: What's the kind of next frontier of this. 594 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 2: Kind of thing? 595 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 5: You know? I actually don't know. I think it's a 596 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 5: great question. I think what we are obviously going to 597 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 5: all be paying attention to the l lms. There's just 598 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,440 Speaker 5: no way we're getting around that. And it's going to 599 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:04,920 Speaker 5: become a focus of how information gets parceled out and 600 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 5: what's considered reliable not reliable, how you hack that system. 601 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 5: And it's already begun. People have already on a business level, 602 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 5: and I'm sure and for sure on a propaganda level, 603 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 5: people are figuring out how to hack the lllms just 604 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 5: by publishing stuff online that just gets pulled by the 605 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 5: machine and then spat back into the user. So you know, 606 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 5: I reported on how that's happening on Reddit. A pro 607 00:29:29,440 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 5: hamas propaganda network active on Reddit has learned how to 608 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 5: do that, and they're not the only ones, so I 609 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 5: think that'll. 610 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: Be the We're recording this shortly after Grock lost its 611 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 1: mind and called itself mecha. 612 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 2: Hitler and. 613 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 5: Elmow got hacked and talking about like Jeffrey Epstein and Jews, 614 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 5: and it's just replete. It's replete. So the AI, the hacking, 615 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 5: the like, all of it together, it's all just this 616 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 5: one strange thing right now. And it's so fast, Like 617 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 5: unlike traditional media, which had its own propaganda issues, it 618 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 5: kind of played out slowly. Here, it's just the moment 619 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:09,840 Speaker 5: by moment. 620 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. 621 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: I almost feel like because it's so fast, people don't 622 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: treat it as seriously as they would, you know, the 623 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: traditional media or things that move slower, and they kind of. 624 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 2: Get used to in a deeper sense. It's interesting. 625 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: I would love to read more about it, So if 626 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: if you're up for writing another book about it, you 627 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: know you're writing up for writing a book about it. 628 00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 5: You let me know I would definitely do that. 629 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: What advice would you give your sixteen year old self 630 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: if Ashley had to do it all over again? Are 631 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: you still on that boat from Italy degrees? 632 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 3: Yeah? 633 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 5: I would, I would definitely to I don't know if 634 00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 5: i'd tell my sixteen year old actually I would, because 635 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 5: when I was sixteen, I was definitely interested in doing 636 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 5: that kind of or even even like more intense and 637 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 5: I think a lot of the times you get held 638 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:08,640 Speaker 5: back by the unknown and the uncertain and what's scary. 639 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,240 Speaker 5: I think I would be more like I would want 640 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 5: to have taken more of those risks younger, even though 641 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 5: it took. 642 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 2: Enough, right, Yeah, it sounds like it took some risks. 643 00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 5: I took some risks. Yeah, but I feel like you 644 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 5: can it's like fractal, you know, like a Babushka, Like 645 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,760 Speaker 5: within the risk you take, you can continue to take 646 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 5: smaller risks as you live it out. And you know, 647 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,080 Speaker 5: I think that's always an important thing. But at at sixteen, 648 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 5: in particular, I would have said that. 649 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: Well, I love this conversation, I love getting to know 650 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: you a little more. Leave us here with your best 651 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 1: tip for my listeners on how they can improve their lives. 652 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 5: I would just say to read more, and to read 653 00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 5: the books that are a little scary to you because 654 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:59,880 Speaker 5: they feel intimidating and challenging, and you know, but sometimes 655 00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 5: the end up being books I give you a lot 656 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 5: because you're really with it. So that is what improves 657 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 5: my life a lot. And staying out of social media. 658 00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, good one. 659 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,600 Speaker 1: I would love to start taking that advice. But you know, 660 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: easier said, I guess. I do take my Twitter breaks, 661 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: and I'm heading to vacation soon, so I disconnect on 662 00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 1: Twitter completely. 663 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 2: I take it off my phone X. You know, Yeah, 664 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 2: read more is always a good piece of advice. 665 00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: He is Ashley Rinsberg, senior editor at Pirate Wires. Check 666 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: out his book The Gray Lady Winked anywhere you buy 667 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: your books. 668 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 2: Thanks so much for coming on, Ashley. 669 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 5: Thanks Charle