1
00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,120
Speaker 1: Welcome to Worst Year Ever, a production of I Heart

2
00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:22,319
Speaker 1: Radio Together Everything, So don't don't hello, welcome back to

3
00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:30,120
Speaker 1: Worst Year Ever. It really is guy. Well, in my

4
00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:34,879
Speaker 1: in my um limited experience, I'll admit that it is

5
00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,560
Speaker 1: the worst year ever. I'm Katie by the way, Hi,

6
00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:44,800
Speaker 1: I'm Katie. Is my name? Yep? It's different slightly Robert

7
00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:51,680
Speaker 1: and yeah, hello, Hi, you know hi, year of doing

8
00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,440
Speaker 1: this and you think we'd be quicker with this apart? No,

9
00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:57,840
Speaker 1: I think that was my best introduction yet. Uh yeah,

10
00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,640
Speaker 1: let's just run and print that. Motherfucker. Do we print

11
00:01:01,760 --> 00:01:06,360
Speaker 1: things on an audio? Can you print that? Okay? Well

12
00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:11,200
Speaker 1: printed anyway? Please? All right? Just who are we? What

13
00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:15,560
Speaker 1: are we doing today today? We are very very excited

14
00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:25,280
Speaker 1: to welcome writer Twitter inspiration Talia Levin. Sorry, t twinspiration. No,

15
00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:31,760
Speaker 1: that's when you're inspired by twins twin inspiration. Hey, Dalia Twitch,

16
00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:37,720
Speaker 1: just general twit me, Talia author. I don't think we

17
00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:40,560
Speaker 1: can allow you to be on and insulting our guest,

18
00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:49,000
Speaker 1: a newly published author, Talia Levin. That's an exciting moment. Yeah,

19
00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:53,000
Speaker 1: well it's I've never you know, I'm not jaded. This

20
00:01:53,040 --> 00:01:56,880
Speaker 1: is my first time and yeah, I hope it's as

21
00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,920
Speaker 1: good for you as it is for me. So far pretty.

22
00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:02,720
Speaker 1: I mean, you're making a joke there, but I can

23
00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:06,800
Speaker 1: confirm that, like as a writer, that when that book hits,

24
00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,600
Speaker 1: it is it is a little bit you know, it's it's,

25
00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:12,760
Speaker 1: it's it's. It's the intellectual equivalent of an orgasm, getting

26
00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,280
Speaker 1: your book out there, getting it out there. Yeah, it's

27
00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:20,200
Speaker 1: a real long build. Yeah, it's two pages. Baby, put

28
00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:24,840
Speaker 1: a lot of my life, soul, insanity into making this book.

29
00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:29,760
Speaker 1: And what's your book about? So it's called culture Warlords

30
00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:34,120
Speaker 1: My Journey into the dark Web of White Supremacy. Um,

31
00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:38,119
Speaker 1: I didn't make that subtitle, but like it is fairly accurate.

32
00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:42,400
Speaker 1: It's kind of about the metastasis of the white power

33
00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,520
Speaker 1: movement online and what that looks like, and um, the

34
00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:51,120
Speaker 1: different spaces, uh that these ghouls gather and what they

35
00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,200
Speaker 1: talk about when they think no one's listening. Very very

36
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,040
Speaker 1: very appropriate for our show and for this moment of

37
00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:00,480
Speaker 1: time we're all currently living through, suppressingly time. I really

38
00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:04,280
Speaker 1: wish that like it was being released, like it was

39
00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,079
Speaker 1: like a quaint topic like I'd written about, like bee

40
00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:11,000
Speaker 1: hives or soup or something like, Oh, white supremacist. That's

41
00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:14,519
Speaker 1: not an issue, but it is. It is. Yeah, I

42
00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,720
Speaker 1: do think the good thing about our audiences. We've been

43
00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:20,640
Speaker 1: yelling about this for a while, so I think folks

44
00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:23,840
Speaker 1: are prepared on the basic stuff. Um, I'm kind of

45
00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,320
Speaker 1: interested if you wouldn't mind starting off with kind of

46
00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:31,280
Speaker 1: walking through your own personal story here. You're kind of

47
00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,359
Speaker 1: journey into covering this stuff because you've got it, You've

48
00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:36,360
Speaker 1: got an interesting one. And in fact, our other guest

49
00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,480
Speaker 1: of the pod Kin Clippenstein, has been putting out some

50
00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,600
Speaker 1: very interesting articles about what happened with you. Yeah, I

51
00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,800
Speaker 1: mean it was I know, right, it's like cross pollination

52
00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,760
Speaker 1: that Talia x ken Um joint. No, So what happened

53
00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:55,400
Speaker 1: was I was a fact checker at the New Yorker

54
00:03:55,640 --> 00:03:59,640
Speaker 1: and ICE put out this tweet Ice like immigrations on

55
00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,440
Speaker 1: Custom Enforcement with out a picture of one of their

56
00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:05,360
Speaker 1: agents for like an ad. You know, they're always kind

57
00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,600
Speaker 1: of portraying how they're like busting cyber crimes against children,

58
00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,440
Speaker 1: and that's definitely primarily what they do, um, which is

59
00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,040
Speaker 1: kind of not I mean, I think they do do

60
00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:17,640
Speaker 1: that to a degree, but it's not what they're known for.

61
00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,920
Speaker 1: And I noticed I was not the first to notice

62
00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:23,280
Speaker 1: by a long margin. There were like a lot of

63
00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,920
Speaker 1: people talking about the fact that he had a tattoo

64
00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:33,279
Speaker 1: on his elbow that looked a bit like an iron cross,

65
00:04:33,760 --> 00:04:38,400
Speaker 1: which is like, you know, it's a symbol associated with Germany.

66
00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,000
Speaker 1: It's not always a Nazi symbol, it is often a

67
00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,760
Speaker 1: Nazi symbol, and so socially like the German Medal of Honor,

68
00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,080
Speaker 1: and then Hitler won one, and it it really got

69
00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,520
Speaker 1: got kind of tainted by the fact that all the

70
00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:55,760
Speaker 1: Nazis started putting it on stuff. Yeah. Yeah, So this

71
00:04:55,839 --> 00:04:58,120
Speaker 1: was floating around the Twitter sphere and people were talking

72
00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,479
Speaker 1: about it pretty emphatically, like this is the Gestapo, blah

73
00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:05,080
Speaker 1: blah blah, um look at this Nazi. And I it

74
00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,000
Speaker 1: was like a little much more cautious and kind of

75
00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:09,400
Speaker 1: put up just a photo of the guy that I

76
00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,839
Speaker 1: put up like a tweet that had like three photos

77
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,960
Speaker 1: like it was like the ad zeroing in on the

78
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,640
Speaker 1: guy's elbow and then like a photo of an iron

79
00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,440
Speaker 1: cross with an explanation of what that is. And then

80
00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,080
Speaker 1: a couple of people responded like, oh, maybe it's a

81
00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:26,440
Speaker 1: Maltese cross, like we don't really know, and so I

82
00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:30,479
Speaker 1: deleted my tweet and posted kind of a correction, um

83
00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,960
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes later, literally fifteen like this might be a

84
00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,520
Speaker 1: Maltese cross. Deleted my tweet so it's not just spread misinformation.

85
00:05:37,560 --> 00:05:40,520
Speaker 1: I was very self congratulatory about it. Oh, I'm not

86
00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,760
Speaker 1: gonna spread this info for likes. And then and like also,

87
00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:49,480
Speaker 1: you know, just it was really going around the whole internet,

88
00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,920
Speaker 1: leftist twitter in or whatever. And then the following day,

89
00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:58,760
Speaker 1: like completely to my shock, Ice put out a press

90
00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:03,839
Speaker 1: release to like it's but jillion followers blaming me directly

91
00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,080
Speaker 1: for starting this rumor, saying that I'd put their agent

92
00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:13,680
Speaker 1: at risk, and you know, like specifically calling me out

93
00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:17,839
Speaker 1: and the New Yorker by name um, which was crazy

94
00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,520
Speaker 1: and like totally like like for a tweet that it

95
00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,279
Speaker 1: existed for fifteen minutes and didn't even have any words

96
00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:27,640
Speaker 1: in it or like any definitive statements, just like could

97
00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,120
Speaker 1: this resemble an Iron Cross maybe? Um? And so that's

98
00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:34,960
Speaker 1: how I got UM. And then like the full force

99
00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:39,760
Speaker 1: of the entire right wing media like descended on me.

100
00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,160
Speaker 1: It was crazy. It's like the roof it was just

101
00:06:42,240 --> 00:06:45,719
Speaker 1: peeled off my life. And like I watched this story

102
00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:49,240
Speaker 1: go from the National Review to the Daily Stormer in

103
00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:52,160
Speaker 1: you know a couple of days Like so it was,

104
00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,520
Speaker 1: you know, started with relatively decorous questions to my employer,

105
00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,520
Speaker 1: who distanced themselves from me. I was also fact checking

106
00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:05,080
Speaker 1: a story. Yeah, they were like, oh, you know we're

107
00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:09,120
Speaker 1: not responsible, um and you know this derogatory statement blah

108
00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:13,840
Speaker 1: blah blah and um. I like it was also fact

109
00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,640
Speaker 1: checking a story about my lowian Appolis at the time,

110
00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,160
Speaker 1: so needless to say, he like very gleefully jumped on

111
00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:23,760
Speaker 1: this and was like she's a god forsaken ritch and

112
00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,840
Speaker 1: like leaked my phone number to his fans. Then it

113
00:07:26,840 --> 00:07:30,040
Speaker 1: winds up in the Daily Stormer where you know it's

114
00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:35,400
Speaker 1: like the you know, the lovely Nazi writer. It's the

115
00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:41,600
Speaker 1: New Yorker of Racism. Yeah, like a few like like

116
00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,520
Speaker 1: the same amount of umlouts, but they're mostly about Nazi terms.

117
00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,760
Speaker 1: Um no yeah so so but um but you know,

118
00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:51,840
Speaker 1: it was like she's the reason why there should be

119
00:07:51,880 --> 00:07:57,160
Speaker 1: a real holocaust, like this collection of ingredients not a

120
00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,640
Speaker 1: real nightmare. Yeah. It was fucking terrible. I like really

121
00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:04,360
Speaker 1: had a rough week, a lot of like suicidalitation and

122
00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:07,640
Speaker 1: self harm and just like bad, bad, bad vibes all around,

123
00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:10,760
Speaker 1: and I it was like a very company woman at

124
00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:13,040
Speaker 1: the time, really believed in The New Yorker and didn't

125
00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,360
Speaker 1: want my colleagues to catch flak until I resigned. Um,

126
00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:18,600
Speaker 1: and it was like really bad. And then I had

127
00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,520
Speaker 1: already written about the far right once. UM, I had

128
00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,800
Speaker 1: written about how hard it was for the Daily Stormer

129
00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:29,200
Speaker 1: to find a web host after Unite the Right in Charlottesville, UM,

130
00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,880
Speaker 1: and compared them to the wandering Jews, which they really hated.

131
00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:38,520
Speaker 1: Um and yeah. And so then after that I worked

132
00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:42,880
Speaker 1: at Media Matters as an extremism researcher. So I really

133
00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,800
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time delve, delving deeper and deeper

134
00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:47,640
Speaker 1: into the crucible of the far right, and have been

135
00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:52,400
Speaker 1: writing about it ever since. So that's the harrowing journey.

136
00:08:54,120 --> 00:08:56,560
Speaker 1: That's how I was like. The the abyss was gazing

137
00:08:56,600 --> 00:08:59,840
Speaker 1: at me so intensely that I was like, fucking, I'm

138
00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,200
Speaker 1: do look at you, guys. Do It's like Nietzsche said,

139
00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,360
Speaker 1: sometimes when the abyss stares at you, you gotta like

140
00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:07,439
Speaker 1: wink it and be like, what's up with you with this?

141
00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,880
Speaker 1: How are you doing? Yeah? Like, stay, abyss, I'm going

142
00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:12,720
Speaker 1: to dive in and figure out what the funk you're

143
00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,160
Speaker 1: all about, because and I'm already being called, you know,

144
00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,640
Speaker 1: the K word every single day, and like, you know,

145
00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,640
Speaker 1: having like photos of my feet posted to Nazi chats

146
00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,319
Speaker 1: before I'm like even doing anything wild, you know, except

147
00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:29,480
Speaker 1: writing a few articles, then I might as well look

148
00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,800
Speaker 1: about the damn thing. So you and that's what you did,

149
00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:36,040
Speaker 1: I correct me if I'm wrong. I mean, your book

150
00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,320
Speaker 1: is about you going into the different chat the different

151
00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:44,600
Speaker 1: online arenas where these people fester, adopting different personas and

152
00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:48,560
Speaker 1: infiltrating and kind of getting information. Yeah, I mean it's

153
00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:53,360
Speaker 1: because I had this sort of reputation among these people already,

154
00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,120
Speaker 1: you know, because and then you know, I kind of

155
00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,600
Speaker 1: doubled down. I'm a very stubborn person, and I doubled down,

156
00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,040
Speaker 1: and I was writing about the far right and kind

157
00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:04,040
Speaker 1: of just being like nazis bad. That was my general

158
00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,000
Speaker 1: public thesis. I And because I'm a woman, and because

159
00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:11,959
Speaker 1: I'm Jewish, like they're they're identitarian elements of this too,

160
00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:14,560
Speaker 1: because I couldn't sort of go through the front door,

161
00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:17,080
Speaker 1: and I had to do a little more like a

162
00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,680
Speaker 1: combo of sort of ocan open source intelligence stuff. And

163
00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,800
Speaker 1: then like the gonzo kind of undercover stuff. So the

164
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:25,959
Speaker 1: book is really a mix of like history. I talk

165
00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:30,760
Speaker 1: a lot about Robert's favorite, um, George lickin Rockwell, I

166
00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,480
Speaker 1: talk about, um, you know, Henry Ford and the history

167
00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:36,640
Speaker 1: of anti Semitism in America and all that stuff, but

168
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:41,400
Speaker 1: sort of juicy parts or whatever are like the various

169
00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:45,920
Speaker 1: iterations of like undercover ops that I did. So that

170
00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:51,880
Speaker 1: included um posing as like an arian babe on um

171
00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,000
Speaker 1: an all white dating site white date dot net, and

172
00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,880
Speaker 1: just like getting them to write love letters to their

173
00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,640
Speaker 1: ideal white wife and then published them in a book. Um.

174
00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:08,080
Speaker 1: I spent like five months um seducing this like Ukrainian

175
00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:12,000
Speaker 1: neo nazi who runs who ran? I should say? Uh,

176
00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:17,680
Speaker 1: like stochastic terror channel dedicated to worshiping Brenton Tarrant, the

177
00:11:17,880 --> 00:11:22,240
Speaker 1: christ Church mosque shooter, and then like past his everything

178
00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,920
Speaker 1: he'd given me which was his name, license plate, uh

179
00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,240
Speaker 1: job and like basic area where he lived to Bellingcat

180
00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:35,640
Speaker 1: who published it. Um, So that was pretty satisfying. I

181
00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,920
Speaker 1: pretended to be an in cell and got into planning

182
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,400
Speaker 1: chats for like a Pagans versus Christians white supremacist mm

183
00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:48,400
Speaker 1: a fight um just like fun adventures like that definitely

184
00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:53,400
Speaker 1: give the book a little color. I like basically really

185
00:11:53,440 --> 00:11:57,720
Speaker 1: went like two and beyond the edge of myself for

186
00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,720
Speaker 1: the book. I'm I want, I mean, I want to

187
00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,200
Speaker 1: talk about, um all sorts of stuff, the things that

188
00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,160
Speaker 1: you cover in this book and the different topics and

189
00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:09,520
Speaker 1: themes um. But as you're sitting here describing this, I'm

190
00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:13,239
Speaker 1: I'm curious if you're open to talking about this emotional

191
00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,600
Speaker 1: toll that that must have had for you personally, uh

192
00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,880
Speaker 1: to be going through this, because it's as you describe

193
00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:25,200
Speaker 1: this to me, it sounds really painful and like, well, yeah,

194
00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,560
Speaker 1: I mean one of the episodes I described in the

195
00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,280
Speaker 1: book is like the opening of chapter one, because I

196
00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:33,760
Speaker 1: wanted to kind of drive it home. Was like, so,

197
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,040
Speaker 1: I there's this organization of neo Nazis called the Bold

198
00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:43,240
Speaker 1: Cast that's like particularly grim and like stochastic terrory. They're

199
00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:47,840
Speaker 1: named after Dylan Roof's haircut, um his bowl haircut. And

200
00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,440
Speaker 1: I was like eaves dropping on a chat affiliated with them,

201
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:53,920
Speaker 1: and I like open the chat at like four in

202
00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,920
Speaker 1: the morning because I totally lost the ability to sleep

203
00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:01,679
Speaker 1: for most of and they're discussing would anyone rape Talia

204
00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:06,840
Speaker 1: lavin Um, and the most of the consensus was they

205
00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:08,560
Speaker 1: were too that I was too ugly to rape. But

206
00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:12,160
Speaker 1: one of them said they would rape me with a gun, um,

207
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,480
Speaker 1: and everyone agreed that that was the best course of action.

208
00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:17,240
Speaker 1: So yeah, there were definitely some like really fucked up

209
00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,920
Speaker 1: moments over the course of reporting on this book, Um,

210
00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:24,600
Speaker 1: where like you become both subject and object of hate.

211
00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,840
Speaker 1: I would say that being a Jew, um like having

212
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,280
Speaker 1: you know, really like the Holocaust was like really close

213
00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,800
Speaker 1: to my family, Like my maternal grandparents, entire families died

214
00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:39,439
Speaker 1: in it. I actually lost an aunt in the Holocaust, like,

215
00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,440
Speaker 1: you know, my grandparents had a baby and she died

216
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,240
Speaker 1: while they were on the run in the woods, and

217
00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,200
Speaker 1: so you know, so my mom lost a sister too, Like,

218
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,080
Speaker 1: you know, it was really close. And then me being

219
00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:55,120
Speaker 1: like the object of so much of their ire. Really,

220
00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,680
Speaker 1: I think the advantage it lent me was that I

221
00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:59,920
Speaker 1: never lost a sense of moral clarity of what was

222
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,760
Speaker 1: at stake, you know, I never let it become a

223
00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,000
Speaker 1: collection of shiny objects. Although like there's so much that

224
00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,240
Speaker 1: is absurd and fascinating in this world that sometimes you

225
00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:11,760
Speaker 1: can lose your way into like just cataloging it like

226
00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:17,240
Speaker 1: it's sort of a collection of sundry oddities. But for me,

227
00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:19,760
Speaker 1: because I was the locus of so much hate and

228
00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:22,600
Speaker 1: come from a community that you know, really become that

229
00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:27,040
Speaker 1: really is um the locus of so much ire. You know,

230
00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:32,080
Speaker 1: it helped me retain moral clarity. It also definitely tipped

231
00:14:32,080 --> 00:14:35,680
Speaker 1: away at my sanity in different ways. It was a

232
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,960
Speaker 1: painful experience and it really was like living at the

233
00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,440
Speaker 1: edge of tolerability and and and beyond it. Yeah, I

234
00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:47,560
Speaker 1: I I can't imagine. Yeah, I I haven't finished your

235
00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:50,680
Speaker 1: book yet, but uh, what I have read so far

236
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:57,320
Speaker 1: is incredibly engaging. Your writing is incredibly eloquent and accessible

237
00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,720
Speaker 1: for people who this world might being new to them.

238
00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,480
Speaker 1: I am more well versed in this whole world than

239
00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:06,880
Speaker 1: I think the average person, but not as much as

240
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:10,040
Speaker 1: say Robert or Cody or or yourself. Um. And I

241
00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:15,040
Speaker 1: found it incredibly engaging. Um And yeah, that was just

242
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:18,240
Speaker 1: my compliment insert here because I wanted you to know

243
00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,240
Speaker 1: that that really comes through like all your you know,

244
00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:25,080
Speaker 1: all this that emotional journey that that you're talking about.

245
00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:28,440
Speaker 1: And I was really strung also just growing up here

246
00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,960
Speaker 1: and feeling and hearing all these stories and you're you know,

247
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:35,120
Speaker 1: your identity and your whole family, how you came here, um,

248
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,680
Speaker 1: and and the Holocaust so recently in your past, but

249
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,720
Speaker 1: feeling like that is separate from from being here in America,

250
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,560
Speaker 1: like anti Semitism isn't necessarily here, and then you know,

251
00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:49,840
Speaker 1: being online and discovering that it's very much, very real

252
00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:51,800
Speaker 1: here and it's tied into all of this other stuff.

253
00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:54,840
Speaker 1: Um yeah, yeah, I mean, and that's where like the

254
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,880
Speaker 1: Jewish sort of assimilation into whiteness plays in, where like

255
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,800
Speaker 1: you know, the people who can to us non white

256
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,840
Speaker 1: are like white supremacists, you know, and and and Christians

257
00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,920
Speaker 1: are mainline Christians are very weird about Jews too. Um. Yeah,

258
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:12,600
Speaker 1: there's a lot of like weird Messianic you know groups

259
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,160
Speaker 1: where they're like they'll call themselves rabbis, but they'll be

260
00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:17,160
Speaker 1: they'll be all about Jesus. Like I keep going to

261
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,360
Speaker 1: protests where where people who are not Jewish have chau fars,

262
00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:23,960
Speaker 1: which is like, um, like a horn that has a

263
00:16:24,000 --> 00:16:26,600
Speaker 1: specific ritual. Yeah, it's like a Ram's court. We blow

264
00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,600
Speaker 1: it at the New year and stuff and and yeah,

265
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,080
Speaker 1: and like Christians, Zionism is a whole other like weird

266
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:37,200
Speaker 1: millinarian ideology that like really to a frightening extent and

267
00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,280
Speaker 1: influences American foreign policy. So it's not like totally just

268
00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:43,880
Speaker 1: like the imper mater of white supremacist to be super

269
00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,760
Speaker 1: weird about Jews, but like white supremacies are weird about

270
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,440
Speaker 1: Jews in like a particularly violent way. But like, of

271
00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:52,520
Speaker 1: course is an expression of privilege that it took until

272
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:55,480
Speaker 1: adulthood in an Internet connection to really feel the brunt

273
00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,400
Speaker 1: of that sort of prejudice. UM. But I do feel

274
00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,520
Speaker 1: that that having that element of my identity constantly sort

275
00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:06,040
Speaker 1: of under fire like helped me retain a sense of

276
00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,639
Speaker 1: moral clarity. As a UM wrote the book, that that

277
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,479
Speaker 1: that there are wages of um and you know, and

278
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,880
Speaker 1: there is there are victims and in every to allowing

279
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,640
Speaker 1: far right organizing to flourish. That's it's not a it's

280
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,240
Speaker 1: not a victimless crime, it's not a perpetratorless crime. It's

281
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:26,239
Speaker 1: it's um. Like they're humans on both ends, humans who

282
00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,639
Speaker 1: suffer and humans who choose to inflict suffering. And I

283
00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:31,520
Speaker 1: think that's like one of the bigger messages of the

284
00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:35,160
Speaker 1: book is that white supremacists aren't you know, sort of

285
00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,919
Speaker 1: monsters that are in human and and you know, unique

286
00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:44,080
Speaker 1: or uniquely poor, or uniquely ignorant, or uniquely beset by

287
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:50,919
Speaker 1: by any set of disenfranchising circumstances that render it, you know, understandable.

288
00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:55,720
Speaker 1: They're just people from every socioeconomic bracket and level of

289
00:17:55,840 --> 00:18:02,040
Speaker 1: educational attainment UM and every geographic region and UM making

290
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,320
Speaker 1: the human choice to live in a world where they

291
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:09,400
Speaker 1: want hate to win. Yeah. Yeah, you that stood out

292
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,040
Speaker 1: to me as well, that where you're saying they're they're

293
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,520
Speaker 1: they're they're sitting next to you in class, they're in

294
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,320
Speaker 1: your office and your cubicle, like you're nice, You're nice.

295
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,680
Speaker 1: H A neighborhood is not, like it's not immune. And

296
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,600
Speaker 1: also that like, you know, I think some of the

297
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:31,160
Speaker 1: most egregious journalism about white nationalists in this era, like

298
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,840
Speaker 1: that infamous Times profile of Tony Hoveder and like the

299
00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:40,800
Speaker 1: whole Nazi next door. Yeah, And I'm like naz right,

300
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:42,919
Speaker 1: And I'm like, it's not shocked. It should not be

301
00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,840
Speaker 1: shocking to you that a Nazi can make pasta without

302
00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:50,760
Speaker 1: like choosta into the pot. Like you know that like

303
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,760
Speaker 1: might have this garden, they're not like you know, like

304
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:59,359
Speaker 1: shooting themselves and like sig Hiling and you know, own

305
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:03,720
Speaker 1: a house like these are human people with human choices

306
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:08,800
Speaker 1: and human lives who make the human choice every single

307
00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:14,040
Speaker 1: day to inflict pain and and cause fear among their targets.

308
00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:17,320
Speaker 1: And so I thought it was important not to downplay

309
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,119
Speaker 1: that element. And and and to me, their humanity doesn't

310
00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:25,960
Speaker 1: is not an It doesn't absolve them at all. If anything,

311
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:30,320
Speaker 1: it it renders them more damned because they have made

312
00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:36,120
Speaker 1: the human choice to engage in creating a worse world. Yeah,

313
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:39,600
Speaker 1: I'm just dropping the heavy ship. I don't know. No,

314
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,879
Speaker 1: it's great. I mean, it's also just important we have

315
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,080
Speaker 1: this like a less so now. But I'd say it's

316
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:48,240
Speaker 1: been chipped away over the last four years. But a

317
00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:51,040
Speaker 1: lot of people still don't realize the things that you're saying,

318
00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 1: and that is everywhere, that it's here, that just because

319
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:57,879
Speaker 1: the Holocaust happened and we all decided this was bad,

320
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,400
Speaker 1: that you know, collective lee on the surface, that there

321
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:07,400
Speaker 1: aren't people that harbor these same uh disgusting ideologies living

322
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,960
Speaker 1: amongst us um and planning and doing things and perpetuating

323
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,679
Speaker 1: hate every day all around us. And we need to

324
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:16,280
Speaker 1: be able to see that. You need to be able

325
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 1: to see that happening. Yeah, And there's this really classest

326
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,320
Speaker 1: assumption that they're like, it must be poverty, it must

327
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:29,280
Speaker 1: be you know, some unique like socioeconomic deprivation, that it's toothless,

328
00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,200
Speaker 1: masturbating cleard us who can barely string two sentences together.

329
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:36,119
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying, like every white supremacist is you know,

330
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 1: a MacArthur fellow in disguise. The one of them who's

331
00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:42,920
Speaker 1: killed the most people was capable of constructing a six

332
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:45,879
Speaker 1: thousand pound bomb in a writer truck and destroying a

333
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 1: federal building with it, like because he was smart and

334
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,840
Speaker 1: capable and knew what he was doing and was able

335
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:57,879
Speaker 1: to plan something very complicated. Like it's that That's one

336
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,080
Speaker 1: of the big issues I think that folks haven't confronting.

337
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,920
Speaker 1: This is the assumption that like, the most of these

338
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,400
Speaker 1: people are capable of is like kind of random acts

339
00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,479
Speaker 1: of violence and they're not a real threat. I think

340
00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:13,560
Speaker 1: when people think about like what a white supremacist or

341
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:16,240
Speaker 1: what like a neo Nazis goal would be, they assume, like, well,

342
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:19,760
Speaker 1: they're trying to, you know, bring back the Nazi Party

343
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 1: or whatever, and that's clearly not going to happen in

344
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,119
Speaker 1: the United States. But like they're they're the goals of

345
00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 1: a lot of these people are a lot are much

346
00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:31,399
Speaker 1: more kind of insidious than that. Like accelerationism, which I

347
00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 1: know you want to talk about, is the thing that

348
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,159
Speaker 1: concerns me the most right now, And it's not trying

349
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,600
Speaker 1: to you know, red pill normis into being Nazis as

350
00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:44,000
Speaker 1: much as it is trying to push society in directions

351
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,320
Speaker 1: that guarantee the kind of violence that will give them

352
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,280
Speaker 1: more power and give them more of the things that

353
00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:52,239
Speaker 1: they want. Like it's it's and it's working right. Like.

354
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,400
Speaker 1: One of the things that we're seeing right now this year,

355
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,960
Speaker 1: and a lot of the work I'm doing is the

356
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,680
Speaker 1: people who are planning and threatening terrorist attacks, the people

357
00:21:59,680 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 1: who are getting like arrested for you know, trying to

358
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,360
Speaker 1: kidnap and kill governors, UM. A lot more of them.

359
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,080
Speaker 1: Very few of them are people who traditionally we would

360
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:13,439
Speaker 1: consider extremists. There their Trump supporters and police supporters, um.

361
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,440
Speaker 1: But in a lot of ways, the fact that these

362
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,360
Speaker 1: people are being radicalized and are are making these kind

363
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 1: of plans is is a result of kind of the

364
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,440
Speaker 1: way in which some of these more extreme white nationalist

365
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 1: groups have prepared the ground and not in a series

366
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:32,400
Speaker 1: of terrorist attacks and their manipulation of the media like

367
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 1: they've they've put our society in this position where radicalism

368
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,159
Speaker 1: doesn't look the way it used to look. Yeah, and

369
00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of that has to do with

370
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,320
Speaker 1: the fact that Trump is um is a white nationalist movement.

371
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 1: You know, there's a sort of inherent desire for ethnic

372
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 1: cleansing that's been there for from the start. Um. But yeah,

373
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:53,399
Speaker 1: I agree. I mean so, I have a book in

374
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 1: a chapter in the book about accelerationism called getting to

375
00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 1: the Boom. So accelerationism is this idea that that that

376
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 1: you know, you want to hasten social collapse, And in

377
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,960
Speaker 1: the case of the far right, that means basically, Um,

378
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,160
Speaker 1: in the out of the ashes of society, a white

379
00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 1: utopia will rise like a phoenix. We'll be able to

380
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 1: engage in the kind of ethnic cleansing that we fantasize about. Um,

381
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 1: the United States will at last be free of the jew.

382
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 1: You know, it's the stuff that's been around since the

383
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 1: Turner Diaries. You know, this fantasy of the day of

384
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: the Rope, where every race, trader, and Jew will be

385
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,920
Speaker 1: hung from trees. Um. There echoes of it in Q

386
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,800
Speaker 1: and on and like this whole day when everyone will

387
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 1: be executed for treason like. Um, you know, it's a

388
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,560
Speaker 1: very resonant idea, and it's certainly resonant on the maga

389
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 1: right and the extremest right, and the lines between them

390
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:53,480
Speaker 1: are blurrier every day. Um. So yeah, I think that

391
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:57,080
Speaker 1: when I look at the next six weeks, you know,

392
00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 1: leading up to the election day of the election, in

393
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,919
Speaker 1: the aftermath of you know, god forbid, like a hotly

394
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 1: contested election or an unclear election. Um, what I see

395
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 1: as a big danger is accelerationist violence, like this idea

396
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: of we're already in a moment of civic chaos and

397
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 1: now is the time to strike hard and so and

398
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 1: to your point, Robert, like, I think there's been a

399
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: lot of skepticism and and even skepticism on the left

400
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,520
Speaker 1: about like are these guys really opponent force? Does it

401
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: really matter? And I would say, first of all, like

402
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:36,439
Speaker 1: how many mass casualty events, um, like premised one racism

403
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: are okay with you? Like for me, the answer is none.

404
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 1: And we've had a number over the past few years. Um.

405
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 1: And you know, it doesn't take that many people to

406
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 1: be tipped over by years of stochastic terror into engaging

407
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 1: in a mass casualty events to create an environment of

408
00:24:55,960 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 1: profound harm, chaos, loss, fear, and and destruction. So you know,

409
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,399
Speaker 1: that's what we're potentially facing. And I think while I

410
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 1: understand the impulse towards cynicism and like, you know, many

411
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 1: of these people cloak their danger and absurdities. Um, you know,

412
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 1: they want you to laugh and feel like to laugh

413
00:25:18,840 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 1: at them or see them as boogeymen. And the way

414
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: that the Klan, like you know, initially dressed in their

415
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: white robes to be like, oh, we're just dressing up

416
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 1: his ghosts to frighten you know, Black people don't take

417
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 1: us seriously, and then they were out committing murder. Like

418
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 1: you know, I think there's we have to take it

419
00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 1: seriously and like it's not a joke. Yeah, I would

420
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,399
Speaker 1: say that. Maybe I'm not somebody that didn't believe that

421
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: this stuff would happen, but I've definitely realized more and more,

422
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: especially this year the last but the last four years,

423
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: just how the unbelievable, the thing that you think can't

424
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: happen and that people won't do can happen, and they

425
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 1: will do more and more. Yeah, it's not great Bob

426
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 1: um none of you are named Bob, but it just

427
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: well Robert pretty close to that. Yeah, I mean, if

428
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,119
Speaker 1: you don't, if you don't want me to be angry

429
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 1: at you. Yes, is if Bob Evans like a chain

430
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 1: of something, it is, it is And this is the

431
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,960
Speaker 1: last that we should say about that. Sorry, I'm buling

432
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 1: in now. Um Never meet your heroes because you will

433
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: offend them horribly. Like the Bob Evans restaurant is um

434
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 1: is a has been a constant, a constant assault on

435
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 1: the pride of my people, my people other people named

436
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: Robert Evans, which only included me and the guy who

437
00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: produced Godfather. There are no others. Yeah. So so accelerationism,

438
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,360
Speaker 1: it's bad, it's scary. That's my that's in a nutshell.

439
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: That's in a nutshell. It's bad, it's scary. It's coming

440
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: to a town next door well together everything. It's really

441
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 1: been interesting to me is the degree to which accelerationism

442
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: has synergized with something with with a number of things

443
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: that have been part of American culture for quite a

444
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 1: long time. Like I am I'm a big advocate of

445
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 1: and I pressed this every time people ask me about

446
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: like the boogaloo folks that. Um. I know there's some

447
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,560
Speaker 1: people who will like claim that it started with like

448
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: you know, the Rohoo race war sort of like memes

449
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: and stuff among white supremacists, and some of that played

450
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 1: into it, But I think if you're going to trace

451
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: it to a direct origin point, it's the zombie apocalypse stuff. Um,

452
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 1: and it's had all this other, like syncretism is a

453
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 1: big aspect of fascism, and it's had all this other

454
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: stuff grafted onto it. But it started with this idea

455
00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 1: of preparing for a collapse that turned from like a

456
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 1: joke into less of a joke. And because it was

457
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,959
Speaker 1: becoming less of a joke, people needed to find like

458
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 1: something more that felt more realistic so that they didn't

459
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,280
Speaker 1: feel silly that they were spending thousands of dollars and

460
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:13,680
Speaker 1: all these guns to fight quote unquote zombies. And I

461
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 1: really like I see a lot of them. What we're

462
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: what we're dealing with now started in places like and

463
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 1: it's not just the zombie apocalypse stuff. There's always been

464
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: this this long running American like theme and American popular culture,

465
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,760
Speaker 1: this like obsession with the idea of collapse and with

466
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 1: social degeneration and the violence that will come with it.

467
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: Corey Doctor just wrote a very good article about vaguely

468
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: this topic. For I think it was slate um and

469
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 1: kind of the complicity that American fiction writers sort of

470
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: have in some of this. So we've you know, what

471
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,480
Speaker 1: the and I think the Nazis recognized that. I think

472
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: people like Lewis Beam recognized that a while ago that

473
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 1: like there were actually a lot of cultural aspects of

474
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: the United States that made us particularly vulnerable to this

475
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: kind of acceleration ism. Like it's it's this idea that

476
00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 1: if you keep pumping chaos and violence into a culture

477
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: that is already fairly dominated by chaos and violence, it

478
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: will push people to become increasingly radical and you know,

479
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: as a Nazi. Even if it doesn't push people to

480
00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 1: be Nazis, because like the Boogaloo folks by and large

481
00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: are not Nazis, they still further those in the goals,

482
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: which is like enough social degeneration and decay and violence

483
00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: that order breaks down and that these heavily armed fascists

484
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: are able to impose like the order they want. Um.

485
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: And I don't know, and there is like a rahalla

486
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,400
Speaker 1: stream in the movement. Sure, sure, there's like a there's

487
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:40,960
Speaker 1: a far right strain. There's Nazis who try to recruiting

488
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: it and stuff, but like that's not where it started.

489
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 1: Their opportunists. Um like it it the boogaloo stuff Like

490
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: I've I've traced back a lot of the earliest commentary

491
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 1: on that and they were never very far from the Nazis.

492
00:29:55,800 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: But it's also like it clearly started as an aesthetic

493
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: more than anything else. Survivalist fetishism. Yeah, that all played

494
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: into it. There's all this a bunch of stuff played

495
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: into it. It's like the dystopia is coming, collapses coming.

496
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 1: Every movie is a disaster movie. That is, the world

497
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: is over and now here we are and I think

498
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: we have slowly um not just like assumed that that

499
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: was going to happen, but like wanted it to happen.

500
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: Like there's an embracing of of that um that that

501
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: dystopian the world. Well, it's like once you've once you've

502
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: gotten enough equipment that you feel prepared, like truly there's

503
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: an element that that that that desires it. Yes, um

504
00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: I wanted to Um. I mean so one of the

505
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: things I say in the book. Um, actually on that

506
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 1: subject of very early an earlier iteration of this idea

507
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 1: that like civilizational collapse will in invitably lead to like

508
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,200
Speaker 1: the fulfillment of Nazi fantasy. Is Like there's a chapter

509
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: in White Power by George Lincoln Rockwell called Nightmare where

510
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: he envisions it's just really ludicrous, like very lurid fantasy

511
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: where he envisions like the black socialists are taking over

512
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 1: America and like they've taken over the armed services, and

513
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: like you are the protagonist. It's this like very like

514
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: vividly written second person narrative and like you know, like

515
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: all these black men are like taking over and killing

516
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 1: people and raping people, and you're sort of the noble

517
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: American hero. Um. And you watch your neighbor, who's this

518
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: like white liberal, you know, shoot a black man to death,

519
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: unrepentant lee. And it's this idea that like, given sufficient

520
00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: chaos and collapse and like this fictitious imminent black socialist takeover, um,

521
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: every white liberal will be come you know, as deeply

522
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 1: racist as George Lincoln Rockwell. UM. So you know, that's

523
00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: an early iteration of the idea that social collapse will

524
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: be the key to white utopia. Um, and I think

525
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: you've see some of that too, And this sort of

526
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: degree of apocalysm apocalypse, apocalyptic nature of the rhetoric around

527
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 1: this election, just like we're really talking about people talking

528
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: about Joe Biden is like bringing in like a Chavez

529
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: esque like like he's always promised to do, famed socialist.

530
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: That's what the r is for. You can see his

531
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: speeches in Congress. It's not even just like the usual

532
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 1: ship like they'll take your guns or whatever. I mean

533
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: that's always a hot yeah, yeah, they'll to talking point,

534
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 1: but it's like becomes so apocalyptic. He's a trojan horse

535
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,200
Speaker 1: for taking all your rights away. And so it's like

536
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 1: that's one of the things that keys up rhetoric to

537
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: this pitch. It's like that you know, we're teetering on

538
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: the edge of an abyss, and like the outcome of

539
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: the selection will determine your ability to not literally be

540
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: imprisoned in a camp for like saying a racial slur

541
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: or whatever. Like it's so like the tenor of political

542
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: conversation is pitched at such an apocalyptic key that I

543
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 1: think you know, you have the militia groups preparing you have,

544
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: um you know, the neo nazis preparing, Like there's just

545
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: a lot of preparing going on, and like that much

546
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:52,720
Speaker 1: preparing with that many guns. Um just I feel like

547
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: it just doesn't lead anywhere good. Definitely makes me nervous

548
00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: when like the real like the real color apps that

549
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 1: could potentially happen is climate change related. Um so like

550
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 1: these all these groups are going to be around with

551
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: all of this stuff and all these guns ready to

552
00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: to do these kinds of things. Um just as the

553
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: planet slowly deteriorates. Yeah, like we're trapped on this like

554
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: swiftly warming planet with like the chaos monsters. It's not amazing.

555
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: It's not amazing. It's not amazing. That's my general take.

556
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 1: I mean, not not a fan, not a fan of

557
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 1: the way things are going. Feels like the worst year ever,

558
00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 1: except that I a part of me, like the real

559
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,439
Speaker 1: pessimist in me, is like we're going to look back

560
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: on and be like, oh, yeah, fine, I think about

561
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: that because at least every year of the last four

562
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 1: years were like, oh thank god that year is over,

563
00:34:54,600 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 1: and it doesn't get better. You know, Like one of

564
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: I saw this great video Molly crab Apple as a

565
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: wonderful artist, um, socialist artist and like they did something amazing. Um.

566
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 1: It was like a collaboration project, um with one of

567
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 1: the founders of Black Lives Matter of kind of imagining

568
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: a better future. They used paintings and like they talked

569
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: about like you know how this moment of plague and

570
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: deprivation and and um climate devastation, like lad to the

571
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: great sort of cooperative utopian future. And um, it was

572
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: really meticulously imagined. And I thought that was such an

573
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: important thing because it's so easy to work yourself into

574
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 1: a state where you can't imagine things ever getting better

575
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 1: and and that kind of utopia, like that kind of

576
00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: ability to imagine a better future. I think is is

577
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 1: a sanity saving thing where it's like you know, there

578
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: there there can be hope that that there can be changed, Um,

579
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: that it can be for the better. It might be

580
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: hard to envision right now, but um, perhaps there will

581
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: be a year when we look back on and say

582
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 1: that's sucked and I'm so glad things are much better now.

583
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 1: That would be great. That's my people have come around

584
00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 1: that changing their minds. Um, did you see in your travels?

585
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: I guess it's not the right word UM indications of

586
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:26,760
Speaker 1: people who are like getting into those groups and subcultures

587
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: who aren't like fully there yet, or like are questioning

588
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: what's going on there and are like that you saw

589
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 1: as being able to UM more easily be pulled back

590
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 1: from from that abyss. I guess interestingly, the most successful

591
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: tales of like the radicalization I've seen are like after

592
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,000
Speaker 1: people have been docks dos Nazis, like their lives have

593
00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: fallen apart, and they're like, this wasn't worth it. Oh,

594
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 1: there's no solidarity here. No one gives a shit about me, right,

595
00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 1: no one's gonna come say me, No one's going to

596
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: help me. There's no bail fund for Nazis. Yeah, they

597
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 1: don't give a shit about each other, like UM. So

598
00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:11,640
Speaker 1: like Unfortunately, I mean I didn't meet a lot of

599
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 1: edge cases because the places that I were hanging I

600
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 1: was hanging out online were sort of already radicalized. And

601
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 1: then I did. The major trips I took were to

602
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 1: Charlottesville for the anniversary of Unite the Right to meet

603
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 1: like with local anti fascists. But then I did go

604
00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: to a conference UM hosted by Andy y Know our

605
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: favorite UM and Tim Pool called Mines. I r L,

606
00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 1: which was basically for like fans as Sargon of Akad,

607
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 1: who was there, was like for fans of fascist YouTubers,

608
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: and like they builded as like oh, it's like so

609
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: pluralist because they were going to have a couple of

610
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:55,600
Speaker 1: leftist speakers um or like quote unquote leftist speakers willing

611
00:37:55,640 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 1: to speak in an Andy y know, timpole conference. Um.

612
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 1: But I did talk to a lot of people there

613
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 1: and it was just like so funny, Like one of

614
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: the funnier interactions I had. They kept asking like, oh,

615
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,759
Speaker 1: so this really builds itself as like ideologically diverse, and

616
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:14,879
Speaker 1: like have you met any progressives? And no one said

617
00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:21,240
Speaker 1: everyone said no. But one guy was like, well I

618
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: met an ethno nationalist and I'm a civic nationalist. So

619
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: I really saw a difference of opinion, the diversity of

620
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: opinion school. But like those were I mean, those were

621
00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: people that like traveled across the country to go see

622
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:40,960
Speaker 1: Andy Yo in person. So what do you think reachable demographic?

623
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: I met him, I talked to him. It was funny.

624
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 1: He was like, no, no, you can't photograph me. Your

625
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 1: whole thing like shoving phones in people's faces without their content. Um.

626
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 1: But I like covertly filmed him. Was like, good for you.

627
00:38:55,840 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 1: Do you provide kill list Jadham, I'm sure a lot

628
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: of no no comment, no comment. You're not even British

629
00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,320
Speaker 1: or not I know. And then I met Timpool and

630
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: I asked him if he ever washed his beanie and

631
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 1: he said he has like twenty. I heard that he

632
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 1: has many, many he just has like piles of them. Yeah. Yeah,

633
00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: um that was a funny experience. Was like they've both

634
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 1: done like videos or commentary about how evil I was,

635
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 1: and that I like met met them in person in

636
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: the very polite as they lied to my face. And

637
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: then like Andy Yo posted that I was shaped like

638
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 1: a pigeon. Him he's a real classy act. Well, I

639
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 1: do have a big I do have a big ass,

640
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:49,200
Speaker 1: So in that sense, I suppose I'm shaped like a pigeon. Um. Yeah,

641
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 1: which is the first thing I think. If you look

642
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:54,880
Speaker 1: at like his old Reddit history and stuff, he's just

643
00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 1: a profoundly unpleasant person who is deeply insecure about his

644
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 1: own body and mainly attacks people who he thinks fit

645
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:07,839
Speaker 1: the idealized version of a human in his head even

646
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,879
Speaker 1: less than he does because yeah, no, and he really

647
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 1: really really hates fat because he used to be fat.

648
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:22,520
Speaker 1: Uh And and so as a woman of larger nus, um,

649
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: you've become a riper target. I mean that's always like, well,

650
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:28,279
Speaker 1: what's interesting about being like subject and objects right in

651
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 1: this context is like you know, looking at their their stuff,

652
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: they are obsessed with fat women, like they like fat

653
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 1: women are just like way up there in their list

654
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 1: of targets, um, and they're obsessed with like the bodies

655
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 1: of women like I had. I like, I have posted

656
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: like one bikini photo in my life, um, like ages

657
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 1: ago on Brighton Beach, and someone used it to impersonate

658
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 1: me on four Chan on two different occasions that I

659
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: had like accidentally posted this bikini photo well like badly

660
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,359
Speaker 1: posing as a as me being a journalist on four Chan.

661
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 1: And then and the daily Storm ran with it was

662
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: like like fat like whale Talia Leavid post accidentally post

663
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 1: bikini picture on four Chan. I'm like, I didn't, but

664
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 1: it's just it's just funny, like how your own body

665
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:19,239
Speaker 1: becomes the site of like this kind of attack and

666
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: then and that becomes part of the story you tell, oh,

667
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,720
Speaker 1: which is all part of misogyny, which is another aspect

668
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: of your book and what you said you might want

669
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 1: to chat about today. Yeah, I'm really bringing the fun topics.

670
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 1: I mean, Katie was like, what do you want to

671
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,279
Speaker 1: talk about and I'm like, I don't know, accelerationism, misogyny,

672
00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,439
Speaker 1: and then and she was like, I feel weird hearting this,

673
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I know they don't give you the

674
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 1: option for just to like like on Facebook, and one

675
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 1: of the I mean it's like, um, I think one

676
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: of the things that being a woman covering the far

677
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: right like gives me access to it is just like

678
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: the degree to which misogyny is an animating force. It's

679
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: like both the means of entree and radicalization. Like it's

680
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 1: you know, for a lot of these people who I

681
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 1: call the ideological launderers, like the tempools of this world,

682
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: and like the Stefan Welly News and and um the

683
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 1: bench Shapiros, like a lot of their opening bids are misogyny,

684
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: Like Ghostbusters ruined your childhood. There's too many ladies in

685
00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 1: Marvel movies, and like you can watch that stuff in

686
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: in a living living room or in public and not

687
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,919
Speaker 1: feel like horribly ashamed. You know, most people don't start

688
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 1: out brandishing swastikas unless they're very special. Um. But but

689
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: like you know what, these videos that almost serve as

690
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:46,319
Speaker 1: like a moment of hate for like feminists and and

691
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: uh and women do as like inculcate you in a

692
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: hate that's like relatively socially acceptable and teach you that

693
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: like one method of like one sort of ideology towards

694
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: so progress to with feminism is like actually working against

695
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:08,000
Speaker 1: your interests and it's like nefariously undermining your place in

696
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 1: the world. And then once you have someone inculcated in

697
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: those two principles, like here's a group that's okay to hate,

698
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: and here's a means of social progress where like a

699
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,720
Speaker 1: sort of accepted ethos in the main stream that's actually

700
00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: working to undermine your place in the world. Like then

701
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 1: you have sort of someone in the palm of your

702
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 1: hand already. Like then, okay, what about the Jews? What

703
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: about racial equality? I mean, it's all very connected, it's

704
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 1: interconnected algorithmically, and these people all know each other and

705
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: like guests on each other's videos, you find a place

706
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 1: where you're form of hate it's safe and accepted, and

707
00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 1: then you're exposed to all these other ones that you

708
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 1: know like level two. Yeah no, and then it's like

709
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: it's it's sort of an oraborous in a way, like

710
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:58,439
Speaker 1: where misogyny forms a point of entree for people into

711
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 1: the white supremacist movement, but also the white supremacist movement

712
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 1: itself is deeply misogynistic, not only in like the targets

713
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 1: that chooses to attack who are disproportionately women. Um, you know,

714
00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:16,280
Speaker 1: and women receive sexually violent and like truly atrocious harassment.

715
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: You know that's of larger and volume and crueler than

716
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,439
Speaker 1: than men. You know. I've I've had men who cover

717
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 1: the far right tell me I sort of feel like

718
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 1: I have like a batman and versus the joker relationship

719
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 1: with these white supremacists, And I'm like, oh, they just

720
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:33,160
Speaker 1: I'm not even I don't get to be even like

721
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 1: poison ivy. I'm just literally the plant poison ivy like

722
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 1: see me as like a rash um. You know, I

723
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: don't get to be like the worthy opponent because I'm

724
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 1: a woman, right, And and that's fine. I'm fine. I'm

725
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 1: not looking for like wo manifest destiny or like white

726
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: feminism in this like I demand to be equal in

727
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,800
Speaker 1: the eyes of white supremacists. But like the other aspect

728
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 1: of it is that in the idealized world that white

729
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:07,239
Speaker 1: sp from assistant vision, women are submissive. Women are basically

730
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 1: like the breeding sacks of the white future. I mean,

731
00:45:11,200 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 1: it's right there in the fourteen words, like the white children,

732
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,319
Speaker 1: like who breeds the white children. It's like women are wombs,

733
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: and like, of course that has brought a broader valence

734
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 1: and like a Christian dominionist culture and like you know,

735
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 1: fervidly anti abortion for pro for forced birth conservative movement,

736
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 1: but it is particularly vivid in in a fourteen words

737
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 1: sort of culture. That's a white supremacist slogan. That's um,

738
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:46,360
Speaker 1: it's like, we must preserve the future for like ourselves

739
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: and our white children. I think that's the gist of it. Yeah,

740
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: it's like so so fourteen is like a big white

741
00:45:55,760 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: supremacist stands for Heil Hitler because because H is the

742
00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:10,120
Speaker 1: eighth letter of the alphabet. Yeah, numerology, right, But but

743
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: you know the guy who could like who who um

744
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: came up with the fourteen words was David Lane, who

745
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,279
Speaker 1: was a member of the neo Nazi terrorists sell the

746
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 1: order like shot at Judah death like a Jewish radio

747
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 1: hosted death but also like they robbed a ton of

748
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:32,000
Speaker 1: armored cars and raised millions of dollars for white supremacists, yeah,

749
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:35,360
Speaker 1: which they used in part to fund Louis Beams starting

750
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: Liberty Net, which was an early Internet in like the

751
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:42,440
Speaker 1: mid nineteen eighties just for Nazis and was really the

752
00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: genesis point for everything you know we've been talking about today,

753
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:50,840
Speaker 1: Like that's where the Nazi Internet effort started. Um, it's liberty.

754
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: Everybody loves liberty. Everybody loves liberty, know the earliest adopters

755
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 1: of the Internet, and so it's like when I don't know,

756
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:03,760
Speaker 1: I just like all the interviews are blurring together, although

757
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: this one will be memorable because you guys are amazing.

758
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 1: But like, you know, people have been like, oh, like

759
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,399
Speaker 1: how can like tech companies combat this, or like what's

760
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 1: their role? And I'm like, the Clan was on the

761
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: fucking Internet. Like the Clan has been around on the

762
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 1: Internet way longer than this group has. Like it's not

763
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 1: like this problem of like organized hate using the Internet

764
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 1: was impossible to anticipate. It would just have taken three

765
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 1: seconds of thinking. And unfortunately companies are like very happy

766
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:38,480
Speaker 1: to to admit that none of us are worth three

767
00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: seconds of thought to them, that, like, our lives are

768
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: not worth that. Yeah, we're cattle for data, and like

769
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 1: you'd think they'd want at least are grain to be

770
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:55,200
Speaker 1: like like a little less poisoned. But no, no, Um

771
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 1: so speaking of poison Sorry, my brain automatically pivots to

772
00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 1: add blood in times like this. Yeah, I apologize speaking

773
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 1: of poisoned grain. You know it won't cell you poisoned grain.

774
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: Oh no, Actually we're entirely supported by the poisoned grain industry. Yeah,

775
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: I made that call a while ago. Um, there's less

776
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: money in it than you might think. Actually, yeah, not

777
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 1: a lot of takers. Unfortunately, we aren't making money on

778
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:29,920
Speaker 1: this show. No, it's actually been a disaster. But one

779
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 1: of these days, one of these I was going to

780
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 1: finish the joke by making like a like a Salem

781
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 1: Witch Trials joke about all of that air got that

782
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 1: was the name of the poisoning anyway, Yeah, it wasn't

783
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 1: didn't wind up being a joke, but you can see

784
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: where I was going to go there. Yeah, damn it,

785
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: that's a good ad. Got milk And then people start

786
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: hallucinating and accusing each other of being witches. I love

787
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: this idea. Oh the sounds so much healthier than Q

788
00:49:01,480 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: went on. Yeah, I mean honestly, like if there was

789
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 1: a mass outbreak of or GOT poisoning in the US,

790
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 1: and how would you tell? Things are already so fucking

791
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: nuts like together everything. I didn't crete a ton of

792
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: Cuy did write a big feature about it from the

793
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 1: New Republic like last week, and like just like reading

794
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 1: about like the mole children and the like thirty five

795
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,040
Speaker 1: thousand kids like sexually abused in tunnels and having their

796
00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:47,120
Speaker 1: blood drunk by the elite under Central Park. And then

797
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: I like went for a walk in Central Park and

798
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:52,240
Speaker 1: was like, where the mole children? Where are they hiding? Yeah?

799
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: Where they hiding? Um? And I did not see anything.

800
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,359
Speaker 1: I saw some burdock, I saw leaves turning. I saw

801
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 1: a lot of runners. I am suspicious of joggers because

802
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: they seem too healthy to me. But I didn't see

803
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:07,440
Speaker 1: any I didn't see any I didn't see any tunnel

804
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:12,439
Speaker 1: mole kids. Um, it is, it is. It's a wild time.

805
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 1: And I think the pandemic has certainly accelerated Q and on,

806
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 1: And I think accelerated a lot of these fringe idea ideologies,

807
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 1: because even the most grounded and sane people I know

808
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 1: are just like feeling confused and feeling scared, and like

809
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:31,399
Speaker 1: the information coming at us like is a lot of

810
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 1: a lot of it is dubious, and like life is

811
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: quite substantially disrupted for a lot of people, and like,

812
00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: so it does make sense to me that people are

813
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,720
Speaker 1: finding comfort in the arms of conspiracy, which is always

814
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:47,760
Speaker 1: full of certainty. Like my feeling is like anyone selling

815
00:50:47,800 --> 00:50:52,759
Speaker 1: you too great a degree of certainty is suspect. I

816
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: mean a plus, we people just have so much more

817
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: time in general sitting in their anxiety and our our

818
00:50:57,760 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 1: mental health. Yeah, isolation is going to breathe that isolated.

819
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:05,879
Speaker 1: That's how you get people in the cults, is by

820
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 1: isolating them from their world and their support systems. As

821
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 1: a musician, I quite admire said in a song be

822
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 1: suspicious of simple answers that ships for fascists and fucking teenagers. Yeah, man,

823
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,839
Speaker 1: and I, um that's why I always speak in paragraphs

824
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 1: to make sure that everyone no I think. Um, I

825
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 1: had a jump on this by already being like an

826
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 1: agoraphobe with a panic disorder. So like your anxiety and

827
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: isolation ain't to have going into really Yeah, yeah, I

828
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 1: will say that, like the um the major differences book

829
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,879
Speaker 1: made in my lifestyle, like doing this level of sort

830
00:51:48,920 --> 00:51:53,799
Speaker 1: of vitriol immersion, was that I started collecting swords, Like

831
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,320
Speaker 1: I just like that's a good thing. Yeah. I wanted

832
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: to bring that up because I feel like you and

833
00:51:58,239 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 1: Robert Caband. Yeah, I have a rich person's machete. Well, honestly,

834
00:52:06,200 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: I mean if you go to the museum Replicas dot com,

835
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 1: they have some deals and like it's not like it's like,

836
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 1: you know, if I like every time I got like

837
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: a payment on my book installment and installment in my

838
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: book Advanced, I would like buy a sword. Um, So

839
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:28,920
Speaker 1: I have like two broadswords, a saber and a dagger

840
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 1: and sword cane. So a sword cane, yeah, a little

841
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:38,840
Speaker 1: knife at the end of what is the sword cane? Yeah,

842
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 1: I'll show it to you. Hang on. So first it

843
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: just looks like I'm ready to go play baccarat with Lord.

844
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:54,359
Speaker 1: When Stanley Grebel pipe, Lord, when Stanley Grebel pipe doing

845
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 1: these days, by the way, charming, He's always put charming

846
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:03,800
Speaker 1: in his hounds of very well behaved. But then should

847
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 1: someone approach me and Lord when Stanley Grevel pipe with

848
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 1: with nefarious motive. Well, oh that's a I just pulled

849
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 1: out pretty pretty pointy, asked a Letto. This is very

850
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,719
Speaker 1: effective in an audio medium. But just imagine that I

851
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 1: to see it though. Podcast lizards love props Gallager of podcasts,

852
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:33,360
Speaker 1: but no, imagine that I just pulled us to Letto

853
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:36,600
Speaker 1: out of a rather lovely bone handled cane and all

854
00:53:36,600 --> 00:53:39,720
Speaker 1: of our doing like a fun gruin when she did

855
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:44,040
Speaker 1: I want carrots Off to have a podcast so bad

856
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 1: and just do all of this prop comedy on the

857
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 1: podcast and describe his prop comedy, not actually do it.

858
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 1: Just say if I were in front of you right now,

859
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:54,640
Speaker 1: I would be pulling out a rubber chicken, and I

860
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:56,359
Speaker 1: think I make this out of this, and I take

861
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,439
Speaker 1: these two things and put them together. It's the only

862
00:53:59,480 --> 00:54:01,759
Speaker 1: thing I'd into. I would shut down all of our

863
00:54:01,840 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: podcasts so that there would be more listening time for

864
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 1: carrot Talk, described Sophie. This is more important than us

865
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:15,799
Speaker 1: nost describing what he would do on stage. I have

866
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: a podcast to um, actually it was funny. I was

867
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,239
Speaker 1: like very nervous. I had the book launched last night,

868
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:25,880
Speaker 1: and um, a friend I was telling a friend I

869
00:54:25,920 --> 00:54:27,839
Speaker 1: was nervous, and you know, she's like, well, you can

870
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:31,080
Speaker 1: always say I'm an author, not a podcaster, Like, but

871
00:54:31,160 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 1: I have a podcast podcast. The podcast it's called it's

872
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 1: it's called Moby Dick Energy, and it's a chapter by

873
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 1: chapter breakdown of the book Moby Dick. So every week

874
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 1: I get to spend like, you know, an hour or

875
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 1: two talking about Herman Melville and just completely ignoring, like

876
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 1: being like, I'm an eighteen fifty one baby on the

877
00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 1: pizza like self care to me, it is it is

878
00:54:56,680 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: like a weirdly important element of my self cares like

879
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 1: spending one like you know, while a week, like talking

880
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:07,879
Speaker 1: to someone smart and like doing a deep dive into

881
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:12,759
Speaker 1: just like how fucking weird Herman Melville is. Um I did.

882
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,200
Speaker 1: The one overlap was this chapter, The Whiteness of the Whale,

883
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 1: which basically argues that whiteness is really sinister and full

884
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 1: of malevolent intent. And I'm like, I couldn't agree more.

885
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:28,720
Speaker 1: It's very brand for you right now. Before I dropped

886
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:32,359
Speaker 1: out of college to pursue a career of damaging my

887
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:36,320
Speaker 1: brain with drugs, um I had a creative writing teacher

888
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:39,320
Speaker 1: who insisted that the book. Moby Dick had the answers

889
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:41,719
Speaker 1: to all of life's questions in it, and I go

890
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,040
Speaker 1: back and forth every year as to whether or not

891
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:47,800
Speaker 1: he was a crank or absolutely right. Um, he was

892
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 1: a crank who was absolutely right. Yeah, both could be true. Um. Like,

893
00:55:53,600 --> 00:55:57,960
Speaker 1: it's a wonderfully weird book, and I I would recommend

894
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 1: that you should read My Culture Warlords and then read

895
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 1: Moby Dick because since almost no one has read it yet,

896
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 1: because it just came out today, I can be like,

897
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 1: it's actually the air in western literature to Herman Melville

898
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 1: and I'll sit on a carrot Ernest timing Way. This

899
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:22,759
Speaker 1: is truly the new wave of literature west Side. Will

900
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:24,200
Speaker 1: you send me a link so I can put it

901
00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 1: in our episode description? Oh to the to um Oh yeah, absolutely,

902
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:32,960
Speaker 1: like I set up top incredibly well written. I'm really

903
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:37,400
Speaker 1: excited to well link it in our episode description. Guy. Yeah,

904
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:41,560
Speaker 1: but can you tell people where they can find it? So?

905
00:56:41,719 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: The good news is everywhere today. It's on Amazon, It's

906
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 1: on um if you want to support your local bookstore,

907
00:56:50,480 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 1: bookshop dot org um where you can order through your

908
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 1: local bookstore, or just call up your local bookstore. If

909
00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:58,799
Speaker 1: you don't have cash for a you know, brand new

910
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,520
Speaker 1: book purchase. Um, you can call your local library and

911
00:57:01,560 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 1: ask them to have it. And um it's also on

912
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:07,399
Speaker 1: audible where if you liked my voice, you can hear

913
00:57:07,440 --> 00:57:11,439
Speaker 1: it for eight hours because I narrated the audio book.

914
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:15,279
Speaker 1: That's so cool. Yeah, that took a long time and

915
00:57:15,320 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 1: like involved me just like saying the like like learning

916
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:25,880
Speaker 1: how to pronounce a lot of German yaum because subject

917
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: I like, it's all more tedious than you would expect

918
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 1: reading your own book. And you're like, oh, this is hard.

919
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 1: Well it's just like it's like putting it under like

920
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 1: the most intense microscope possible, and you're just like, oh god,

921
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 1: every flaw and I can't change the word, but it's

922
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 1: too late to change it. Yeah, but it's out everywhere

923
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:49,840
Speaker 1: books are sold, and uh, you know really just like

924
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:55,000
Speaker 1: Ernest timing Way found shaking in his grave. Um T s.

925
00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 1: Eliott was an anti Semite anyway, so fuck him. But

926
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 1: you know he is truly in a waste land of envy.

927
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 1: Um At how amazing my book is. So that's my pitch. Um,

928
00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:09,840
Speaker 1: you won't be disappointed, how good you be with It's

929
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 1: the mode dick of racists. Yeah, but the book is

930
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. Well, yeah, I mean I'm

931
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 1: pursuing the white whale of white supremacy to stab it

932
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 1: to death with my harpoon of truth, with your swordcane, Swordcane.

933
00:58:28,440 --> 00:58:31,560
Speaker 1: We brought it back around. Um, tell our listeners where

934
00:58:31,560 --> 00:58:34,760
Speaker 1: they can check you out online? Oh yeah, so I'm

935
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:41,440
Speaker 1: put on Twitter. That's like my main jazz. Uh, you're

936
00:58:41,520 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 1: better after searching my name Talia Lavin um t a

937
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 1: l I A l A v i n. My handle

938
00:58:47,280 --> 00:58:50,600
Speaker 1: is trick in Kiev um, which is a pun on

939
00:58:51,040 --> 00:58:55,880
Speaker 1: Chicken Kiev, the dish and I made while I was

940
00:58:55,960 --> 00:59:01,120
Speaker 1: living in Kiev for a year, um and is really stupid,

941
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 1: but I can't change it otherwise I'll lose my blue

942
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:07,120
Speaker 1: check and then I'll die. Um it's my blue check

943
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 1: is a hore crux of mine. Um. I can't I know? Um,

944
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 1: but yeah, so Chicken Kiev. You can find me on

945
00:59:14,320 --> 00:59:17,959
Speaker 1: Twitter and I'm on Instagram as Talia inter Alia, which

946
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 1: is like Talia among other things in Latin. Because I'm

947
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 1: a big freaking dork and and Mobe dick energy comes

948
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 1: out almost every week if you're into deep dives on

949
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 1: deep dives into whaling. Thank you so much for having

950
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 1: me you guys here, listeners, check out Talia's book and podcast.

951
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 1: And as she just urged you to do, go out

952
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 1: into the ocean and gun down a whale. Yeah absolutely,

953
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:50,920
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, I mean probably don't, but um you can

954
00:59:50,960 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 1: admire the whale and experience the majesty and terror of

955
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 1: the sea. Um. One thing that I do know, sorry,

956
00:59:58,520 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 1: I started as like a means of self care during

957
01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 1: like most intense Nazi immersion times. The Nantucket Historical Association

958
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 1: has these whaling logs that you can help transcribe, and

959
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 1: I started doing that. How soothing, which it was so soothing,

960
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:19,960
Speaker 1: like it was just like weather today, continuous fine, like

961
01:00:20,000 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 1: a sauce pul of flying fish off the stop at

962
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 1: bow and I just like yeah, um, and I learned

963
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:29,760
Speaker 1: it to say for eighteenth century handwriting. So on that note,

964
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 1: Thank you, guys, Thank you again, And you guys can

965
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 1: check us out online at Worst Year Pod on Instagram, Twitter, etcetera.

966
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 1: You know this, you guys know this all right, Thanks again, Paulia,

967
01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 1: Bye bye Everything Everything I Tried. Worst Year Ever is

968
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:00,720
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from

969
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 1: My Heart radio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcasts,

970
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.