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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, stabbed twenty eight times, capped

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Speaker 1: off with a gunshot wound to the head, left to die,

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Speaker 1: naked and decomposing in his shower stall, ringing a bell

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Speaker 1: That was Travis Alexander, Young, handsome, educated, the world before him?

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Speaker 1: How did he end up there? Two words, Jody Arius, I,

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories, thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. Jody Arius goes in front of a jury

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Speaker 1: for not one, but two trials as part of death

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Speaker 1: penalty proceedings against her there in Arizona. But what are

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Speaker 1: we learning about Jody Arius's life behind bars? Well a lot.

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Speaker 1: I hope you're sitting down joining me right now along

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Speaker 1: with Ashley Wilcott, jeevenile judge, lawyer, founder child crimewatch dot com,

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Speaker 1: doctor Brian Russell, host of investigation discoveries hit series Fatal Vows,

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Speaker 1: renowned New York psychologist Karin Stark. Alexis terres Chuck joining

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Speaker 1: me from rdar online dot com. Alexis, why won't she

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Speaker 1: go away? Because she can't? She craves the attention of everybody.

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Speaker 1: She says that she wants to just do good behind bars,

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Speaker 1: but she doesn't. She still runs a Twitter account, she

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Speaker 1: still writes to her fan she cannot live outside of

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Speaker 1: the spotlight. Let's go back in the courtroom. What happened Alexis?

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Speaker 1: Jodi Arius created a circus in the courtroom when she

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Speaker 1: took the stand. Everybody was stunned. I was, I know

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Speaker 1: you were. And she was on there for days spinning

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Speaker 1: her lies about Travis Alexander. Alexis, what can you tell

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Speaker 1: me about Travis Alexander in life? What was he like?

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Speaker 1: Travis was the nicest guy. He was a warman. The

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Speaker 1: religion that he had committed himself too. If he was older,

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Speaker 1: and he was full of life. He had so many friends.

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Speaker 1: He was a respected business guy. He was the one

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Speaker 1: who had the whole house and had all the roommates.

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Speaker 1: So everybody depended on Travis take care and then, and

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Speaker 1: that's what he did. He took care of everybody. He

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Speaker 1: was funny, he was adventurous. He was always going on

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Speaker 1: trips and in fact, when he and Jodie started to

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Speaker 1: he evenly went on a lot of trips together, fun

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Speaker 1: trips to waterfalls and to San Diego, lots of places.

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Speaker 1: He was an up and coming entrepreneur. He had his

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Speaker 1: own he was running his own business through the organization,

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Speaker 1: and he was really climbing up in the company because

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Speaker 1: people liked him. He had a quick smile. His sister

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Speaker 1: just said he was the nicest guy you would ever meet.

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Speaker 1: Everybody that met him said he was so nice. And

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Speaker 1: he was also struggling with his religion. He wanted to

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Speaker 1: follow the tenants so strictly, but he also liked any

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Speaker 1: other young person in their late twenties early thirties. You know,

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Speaker 1: he wanted to have sex with his girlfriend. It's interesting

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Speaker 1: and I'm gonna go to care and start on this

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Speaker 1: in a moment. But all of his friends and family

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Speaker 1: that knew her did not want him to be with her.

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Speaker 1: And I've questioned them about that repeatedly, saying what was

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Speaker 1: it about her? And they all said, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It was just a freaky, hinky feeling. She was just

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Speaker 1: we just thought she was weird and crazy and there

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Speaker 1: was just something about her. Doctor Brian Russell. She's many

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Speaker 1: people believe beautiful. She got a beautiful face. Many people

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Speaker 1: think she's got a beautiful body. I don't find her beautiful,

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Speaker 1: but many people do. She's got tons of people writing

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Speaker 1: her and sending her money behind bars. The thing is

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Speaker 1: when Travis Alexander, who I understand at the time was

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Speaker 1: a devout Mormon, got tangled up with Jodi Arius. At

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Speaker 1: some point he wanted to break it off. He said

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Speaker 1: things like he did not think they would ever get married,

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Speaker 1: he wanted to start dating other people. She would have

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Speaker 1: none of it. So she finds out he's going on

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Speaker 1: a trip to Cosumel with another woman, and that just

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Speaker 1: throws her into a fit. Drives literally across the desert.

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Speaker 1: She's moved away with all the gas cans in her

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Speaker 1: trunk so she doesn't have to stop to use her

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Speaker 1: credit card or be on a surveillance video at a

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Speaker 1: seven to eleven, gets to his home. They have crazy

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Speaker 1: fetish sex all day, complete with photos which were played

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Speaker 1: over and over and over at trial. And then he

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Speaker 1: still refuses to cancel the Cosumel date, and when that happens,

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Speaker 1: she stabs him twenty nine times and shoots him in

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Speaker 1: the head, leaving his body to decompose in the shower.

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Speaker 1: Help me out, doctor, Brian Russell. I'm glad you just

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Speaker 1: gave that rundown, Nancy, because you know, if she said

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Speaker 1: she'd killed him while he was beating her there'd be

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Speaker 1: a self defense argument, but physical evidence from the scene

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Speaker 1: clearly suggested that didn't happen that way. I never saw

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Speaker 1: solid evidence that he'd ever beaten her. Let's just look

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Speaker 1: at the facts, as you accurately point out, doctor Brian Russell,

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Speaker 1: there were many ways if it indeed true, which no

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Speaker 1: one but Arias says, it's true. They were broken up.

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Speaker 1: She had moved away, hours away. They were not living together.

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Speaker 1: They were never married, they never had children, nothing. They

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Speaker 1: had a fling. He broke up, she moved away, scorned,

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Speaker 1: she left. She was living somewhere else, had a brandy

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Speaker 1: place to live, had a car, a job, the works,

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Speaker 1: and they'd been apart for a while. As a matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, I'm reading directly from the autopsy report. Travis

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Speaker 1: Alexander's juggular vein, his throat was slit the common karnid artery,

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Speaker 1: the trachea had been slashed. He had defensive wounds on

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Speaker 1: his hand. He may have even been dead at the

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Speaker 1: time she shot him in the head. Also, the crime

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Speaker 1: scene revealed that when he first was stabbed, he realized

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Speaker 1: he was dying. He stumbled to the bathroom mirror and

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Speaker 1: actually looked in the mirror as he was dying. And

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Speaker 1: we know this because of the blood evidence. There were drops,

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Speaker 1: not spatter, not throwback, not transfer, drops of blood that

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Speaker 1: dropped down from his neck and his nose and his

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Speaker 1: face onto the sink as he looked into the mirror

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Speaker 1: as he died, and he was left naked and bloody,

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Speaker 1: bleeding out in the shower. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: it's really not even contested how he died. Listen to

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Speaker 1: Jodi Arius at trial admitting she slit his throat. Would

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Speaker 1: you agree that you're the person who actually slit mister

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Speaker 1: Alexander's throat From here to here, Yes, to Ashley Willcott,

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Speaker 1: veteran trial lawyer and judge, it gives me no pleasure

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Speaker 1: to replay the rendition of how Travis Alexander was murdered.

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Speaker 1: He didn't see it coming, He had no idea what

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Speaker 1: was about to happen. But we also know Ashley that

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Speaker 1: at the beginning she claimed that she wasn't there, she

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Speaker 1: had nothing to do with it at all. Then when

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Speaker 1: evidence turned up that she had been there, she actually

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Speaker 1: claimed that ninjas showed up all dressed in black and

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Speaker 1: for no reason, burst into the home, stole nothing, She

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Speaker 1: ran and saved her own life. But they killed Travis

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Speaker 1: and left like shadows in the night. I mean, Ashley,

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Speaker 1: really right, really so she was lying from the get go,

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Speaker 1: obviously with the story that she initially told with the ninjas.

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Speaker 1: But here's what I love about our justice system. During

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Speaker 1: this trial, it went from story to story to story

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Speaker 1: to story. But as you just played, finally on the

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Speaker 1: stand under oath, she admits she slit his throat period. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and just like this and just like that, and then

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Speaker 1: shot him. Cleaned up the scene as best she could,

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Speaker 1: put a lot of clothes in the washer, including her

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Speaker 1: digital camera. Hello, and on the camera to Karen Stark

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Speaker 1: were actual photos. They had been She had been taking

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Speaker 1: sex photos the whole day, Okay, but forget about that.

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Speaker 1: On the digital camera that she left in the washing machine,

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Speaker 1: our photos, as we think, accidentally taken during Travis's murder.

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Speaker 1: Karen Stark, New York psychologist, what about that This is

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Speaker 1: a person who really is not only a pathological liar,

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Speaker 1: but has absolutely no guilt about anything that happened and

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Speaker 1: documented it as do it as it was happening. Now,

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Speaker 1: even if it was accidental. Somehow she knew that she

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Speaker 1: should wash things up, clean them up, despite the ninjas

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Speaker 1: or whatever she was saying, And she very clearly is

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Speaker 1: a psychopath who committed this murder. There is no doubt

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Speaker 1: in my mind that she knew exactly what she was

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Speaker 1: doing and that it had to do with rage and

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Speaker 1: jealousy and her inability to let go of this man.

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Speaker 1: Alexis Urez Chuck writer online dot com. You also covered

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Speaker 1: the case every single day. I was in the courtroom

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Speaker 1: almost every day and was broadcasting from a couple of

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Speaker 1: blocks away from the courthouse. The digital camera evidence, to me,

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Speaker 1: is overwhelming. It places her there at the time of

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Speaker 1: the murder, in the room with Travis. It does it's

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Speaker 1: right up to and after she murders him. There there

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Speaker 1: are pictures of him naked in the shower, got the

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Speaker 1: water running over him, He's looking directly at the camera.

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Speaker 1: These were not secret photos that he didn't know were

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Speaker 1: being taken. Then there's the picture of his foot in

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Speaker 1: the shower, and there's another picture of the blood on

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Speaker 1: the floor, and they're taking there's a time stamp, so

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Speaker 1: you can tell that they were taken just moments, literally

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Speaker 1: less than two minutes after he was alive in the shower.

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Speaker 1: She's taking pictures and then he's dead when she went

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Speaker 1: into her frenzy, her spree killing spree, and stabbed him repeatedly.

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Speaker 1: And the thing was she also shot him, but the

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Speaker 1: bullet casing was found on top of the blood. So

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Speaker 1: what the evidence was presented in court is that there's

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Speaker 1: no way she shot him first, otherwise that would be

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Speaker 1: on the bottom and be covered with blood. It happened

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Speaker 1: afterwards and it wasn't disturbed. And this is everything that

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Speaker 1: was shown on her camera. She didn't even take the

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Speaker 1: camera with her. She stuck it in the washing machine.

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Speaker 1: She left it there. It was so easy for everybody

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Speaker 1: to find her crime stories. With Nancy Grace, I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about none other than Jody Arius too. Alexis tres Chuck.

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Speaker 1: Alexis exactly where is Jodi Arius housed? Has she been moved?

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Speaker 1: What's the name of her correctional facility? And what do

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Speaker 1: we know specifically about security? There? Is that a pod?

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Speaker 1: Does she have a roommate? Can she decorate hersell like

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Speaker 1: a dorm room? So she is in the Perryville Prison.

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Speaker 1: She has not been moved. She entered there in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 1: April thirteenth, twenty fifteen, so she has been there just

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Speaker 1: over four years. It is a very standard twelve by

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Speaker 1: seven cell I believe, with a bed and a sink.

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Speaker 1: She does not have a roommate because it is a

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Speaker 1: maximum security she was convicted of murder in the first degree.

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Speaker 1: She is classified. She can not have any movement, and

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Speaker 1: she's had a review every year since she's been there

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Speaker 1: to maybe lower down the classification level of her risk assessment.

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Speaker 1: Never been lowered. It's gone from a five to a four,

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Speaker 1: which is nothing at all. She doesn't she's still in

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Speaker 1: a maximum security prison. She does not have a lot

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Speaker 1: of freedom or free free will to walk around to

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Speaker 1: see other people. She should one of those off. But

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Speaker 1: she can decorate her cell, and she also has a

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Speaker 1: television and she is able to watch TV and she

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Speaker 1: watches it NonStop. And she spends most of her time

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Speaker 1: in soliditary confinement. That's the way this prison is designed

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Speaker 1: in Arizona. It's a pretty harsh prison for the worst

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Speaker 1: of the killers in the state. And but she also

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Speaker 1: has a job behind bars. She has been working in

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Speaker 1: the library for almost a year now and she works

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Speaker 1: over forty hours a week, but she makes a whopping

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Speaker 1: forty cents an hour, alex says, what can you tell

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Speaker 1: me about jodi Arius's life behind bars? Is it true

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Speaker 1: she has dozens of love letters a day? Did nobody

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Speaker 1: see Travis Alexander's decomposing body in the shower? No matter

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Speaker 1: how many times I played it on HLN? What men

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Speaker 1: is right? Mine would seek out jodi Arius? What do

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Speaker 1: they want to be with a killer? Or do they

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Speaker 1: think she's innocent? These people out there, these men are

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Speaker 1: just bamboozled by her hair. Used to be she used

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Speaker 1: to be this bleached lawn, really bucksome girl. Now behind bars,

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Speaker 1: she has her natural brown hair, it's probably gray at

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Speaker 1: this point, and they write her obsessively. She even has said,

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Speaker 1: I cannot even respond to everybody who writes to me

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Speaker 1: because I get so many fan letters a day, dozens

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Speaker 1: of them. She has all the things that she buys

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Speaker 1: from the commentary in there, so she buys tons and

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Speaker 1: tons of paper and envelopes so she can write to

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Speaker 1: all of her fans. And the people tell her they

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Speaker 1: love her, and they believe that she's innocent and that

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Speaker 1: she's going to get out, and then when she gets

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Speaker 1: out that they're going to maybe even get together with

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Speaker 1: her they are just fans Alexa's How do you know

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Speaker 1: she's getting all these love letters? The prison has confirmed

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Speaker 1: to us that she receives multiple letters, and then she

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Speaker 1: runs a Twitter account through a friend, and that friend

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Speaker 1: posts that people write to her all the time. Alexis

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Speaker 1: to reschuck writer online dot com. Are these men sending

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Speaker 1: her money? Are they insane? Yes, people send her so

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Speaker 1: much money they send her They have to send it

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Speaker 1: through the prison system, but they have it because she

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Speaker 1: has a huge fat account in the jail commissary. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so if they're sending her money, Alexis to Reschu, what

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Speaker 1: is she doing with it? I mean, what's there to

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Speaker 1: spend it on? Behind bars? She is spending all of

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Speaker 1: her money at the commissary on a variety of things.

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Speaker 1: But the thing that struck me the most is that

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Speaker 1: she's buying toothbrushes, which Terisa Judace told us that she

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Speaker 1: learned when she was in prison that that can be

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Speaker 1: used as a sex choy. Behind bars, she shops relentlessly

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Speaker 1: at the canteen. She buys him startings, she buys doritos,

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Speaker 1: she buys putting, she buys deserves, she buys cookies, so

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Speaker 1: alsu buys eno, which you know can treat her stomach problem.

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Speaker 1: She buys pretzels, cookies, crackers, any sort of junk food

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Speaker 1: goes on there. Jody is buying Alexis I understand that

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Speaker 1: she's treated like a celebrity behind bars. What does that entail?

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Speaker 1: She is quite popular behind bars. She is the one

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Speaker 1: that everybody goes to. She well, she claims that she

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Speaker 1: gives other people. She buys things from the commentary to

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Speaker 1: give to other people, because people behind bars are not

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Speaker 1: as lucky as she is. But there has been other

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Speaker 1: inmates who are also lust of the same prison. Who

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Speaker 1: Ever reveals that people get in fights with Jody and

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Speaker 1: that she's often mouthing off in the shared courtyard. Is

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Speaker 1: it true that she has privileges to get on the internet?

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Speaker 1: And if so, right the love lorn men that are

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Speaker 1: contacting her. She does go the library. She actually works

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Speaker 1: in the library. She is a library aid and she

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Speaker 1: has said that the library books in this prison are

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Speaker 1: just terrible. So she's asked people. She started book drives

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Speaker 1: behind bars to ask people to send things that people

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Speaker 1: would want to read. But the prison is very strict

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Speaker 1: about what you can get, and so there are many

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Speaker 1: mostly religious books and probably what you would call smut books,

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Speaker 1: you know, romance books. She does not have access to

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Speaker 1: the Internet, but she speaks with folks on the outside

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Speaker 1: that do have access to the Internet, so that's how

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Speaker 1: she keeps in touch with everybody through her Twitter account

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Speaker 1: and the love letters. She can write as many as

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Speaker 1: she wants, and she just has to buy stamps. But

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Speaker 1: she has basically unlimited funds in her account, so she

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Speaker 1: is able to buy the stamps to send letters back

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Speaker 1: to everybody that writes to her, but she has often

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Speaker 1: sent I can't write to everybody, as if she has

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Speaker 1: anything else to do. Unless Terrez Chuck, what can you

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Speaker 1: tell me about claims that she gets privileges behind bars.

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Speaker 1: Jodiarius does not get any special privileges behind bars, but

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Speaker 1: because she cannot behave. In fact, she was disciplined within

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Speaker 1: her first couple of months of being there. She yelled

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Speaker 1: at a guard and called the guards a blocker because

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Speaker 1: he wouldn't let her get a haircut that she wanted,

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Speaker 1: even though she had no privileges to get a haircut.

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Speaker 1: And then when she was disciplined, she said, oh, I

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Speaker 1: didn't know that that word was a bad word. I

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Speaker 1: just looked it up in the Urban Dictionary. So she

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Speaker 1: was disciplined for months on end. She lost her visitation privileges.

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Speaker 1: I understand that Jody Arius perceives herself to be quite

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Speaker 1: the artiste, okay, and she could be selling her artwork online.

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Speaker 1: Is that true? Let me say, is that still true?

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Speaker 1: Because I've seen some of it. To me, it's like

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Speaker 1: she's just tracing pictures out of magazines. But that I'm

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Speaker 1: no art credit Alexis you tell me Jody Arius was

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Speaker 1: drawing so many pieces of art, and you are right,

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Speaker 1: they did look like she traced things because it was

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Speaker 1: such an exact copy of things for magazines, ads, and

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Speaker 1: even in one picture everybody thought it was just like

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Speaker 1: Travis Alexander's sister, which was so disrespectful. But then she

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Speaker 1: has been in this prison. She's not allowed to sell

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Speaker 1: it or profit all of this, but she is sending

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Speaker 1: people her art work and it's on her website from

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Speaker 1: before or so if people wanted to go check that out.

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Speaker 1: Jodiarias dot com has her art disgusting to doctor Bethany

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Speaker 1: Marshall psychoanalanst joining me out of La Doctor Bethany behind bar.

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Speaker 1: She's somewhat of a celebrity. She gets hundreds of love letters,

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Speaker 1: people put money in her commissary account. She quote draws

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Speaker 1: in quote in other words, traces other drawings and then

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Speaker 1: sells them. It's quite the life, Quite the life. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Bethany explained, how is she still manipulated? People from bar

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Speaker 1: highly manipulative? You know, I was thinking about borderline personality

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Speaker 1: disorder as you were talking to an Alexis. She definitely

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Speaker 1: has borderline personality disorder and I actually was looking it

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Speaker 1: up in the DSM five, which is the diagnostic and

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Speaker 1: Statistical Manual of mental disorders, and one of the characteristics

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Speaker 1: is intense, unstable and conflicted close relationship marked by mistrust, neediness,

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Speaker 1: and anxious preoccupation with real or imagined abandonment. Close relationships

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Speaker 1: often viewed in extremes of idealization and devaluation, alternating between

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Speaker 1: overinvolvement and withdrawal. And I can see that in her

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Speaker 1: relationship with Travis Alexander, that it started with the idealization

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Speaker 1: and then it went through to the devaluation. The idealization

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Speaker 1: is when he was dating her, right when they were together,

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Speaker 1: when they were going out, and then do you remember

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Speaker 1: that she found out that he was planning a vacation

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Speaker 1: with another woman. Then it went from the idealization to

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Speaker 1: the devaluation, and that's when she started to plot her revenge.

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Speaker 1: Not only was she preoccupied with killing him, but she

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Speaker 1: was absolutely obsessed with him. Crime stories with Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: I guarantee you that Jodi Arius to this day thinks

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Speaker 1: that she's the victim behind bars. Joining me right now,

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Speaker 1: Alexis terres Chuck, investigative reporter and journalists for Radar online

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Speaker 1: dot Com. Alexis, you and I covered the Arias murder

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Speaker 1: trial together as well as the death penalty phase. For

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Speaker 1: those who don't know about Jodi Arius and her murder conviction,

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Speaker 1: please explain what happened to Travis Alexander When he tried

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Speaker 1: to break up with her, She plotted his murder. True

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Speaker 1: lured him in, you know, went down to his house

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Speaker 1: in Arizona, but he took her four days to get there.

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Speaker 1: She stopped along the way to buy a bunch of

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Speaker 1: things she was going to use where she ended up

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Speaker 1: slaughtering him. She attacked him while he was in Wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, though, Alexis, hold on, hold on, you're skipping

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Speaker 1: some good stuff because when she travels. You know, I

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Speaker 1: don't know how many hundreds of miles to go murder him.

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Speaker 1: She did not want to leave a trail describe it Alexis,

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Speaker 1: So she rented a car in northern California, about sixty

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Speaker 1: miles away from her house, so nobody would recognize her.

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Speaker 1: She first they gave her a red car. She said,

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Speaker 1: I don't want a red car. That's too noticeable. I

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Speaker 1: want something different, because she didn't want the cops to

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Speaker 1: see her. She then hit out with a boyfriend in

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Speaker 1: another town. She dyed her hair back to its natural

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Speaker 1: brunette from the bleach blonde she's been sporting. She then

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Speaker 1: bought a gas can, had multiple gas cans in her car,

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Speaker 1: filled them up with gas, not using a credit card,

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Speaker 1: so that she couldn't be traced, and then trekked across

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Speaker 1: the desert, hiding when she was so she couldn't be

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Speaker 1: stopped anywhere and had no record of her being near Travis. Now,

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Speaker 1: I don't recall that he knew she was coming. They've

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Speaker 1: had a full of phone calls. She had called him repeatedly,

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Speaker 1: but once she entered the area near his house, she

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Speaker 1: turned off her phone and did not turn it back

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Speaker 1: on until hours after she murdered him to hide the

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Speaker 1: fact that she was even at his house. She was

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Speaker 1: very devious. She knew exactly what to do to try

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Speaker 1: to cover her trap. What do you think was the

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Speaker 1: motive Alexis and why? Jody Arius was jealous that Travis

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Speaker 1: Alexander had moved on. He didn't want to date her anymore,

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Speaker 1: He did not want to be her boyfriend. And he

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Speaker 1: was actually even going on a trip down to Camcoon

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Speaker 1: with another girl, and it was a company trip and

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Speaker 1: she had worked for this company, so she was humiliated.

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Speaker 1: But she was filled with rage because he wouldn't be

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Speaker 1: her boyfriend and he didn't love her, and he traded

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Speaker 1: her like she felt like trash. They had sex, he

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Speaker 1: didn't care, he lied about it because he was a Mormon,

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Speaker 1: and he moved on and she could never move on.

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Speaker 1: And she thought, if I can't have him, no one

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Speaker 1: else will. She literally left Travis Alexander home with blood

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Speaker 1: on her hands. Okay, blood on her hands, drives for

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Speaker 1: hours to get to her next boyfriend and literally hops

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Speaker 1: on top of him and straddles him. Wow, she didn't

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Speaker 1: waste any time. She did not at all. Twenty seven

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Speaker 1: hours in the car, whatever it was with her gun

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Speaker 1: that she had brought the police. Her parents, her grandparents

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Speaker 1: who she lived with, had had a break in, and survisally,

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Speaker 1: the only thing stolen was the gun, which is the

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Speaker 1: same caliber of gun that was used to shoo Travis

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Speaker 1: alexis the fact that they were part of the Mormon

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Speaker 1: religion same too. It was like a curiosity to so

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Speaker 1: many people. Why is that. I think it's because the

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Speaker 1: Mormon religion is not as familiar to people across the

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Speaker 1: country as other religion, the Christianity, and so people tend

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Speaker 1: to have thought of it as a cult. And so

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Speaker 1: they saw that this there was this what many people called,

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Speaker 1: you know, ritualistic murder, which it wasn't. It was just

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Speaker 1: Joe going crazy and murdering somebody. And they tied it

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Speaker 1: into this church. But also because there were visual images

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Speaker 1: of it. When Jody met Travis, he was a very

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Speaker 1: well respected member of the church, and he brought her

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Speaker 1: into the church and she was baptized and became a

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Speaker 1: member of the church. So there was a photograph of

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Speaker 1: her baptism. And so when people have visual images of

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Speaker 1: things they can see, it makes it so much more compelling.

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Speaker 1: And then she dragged in the fact that after she

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Speaker 1: got baptized, I think she said that she and Travis

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Speaker 1: had sex. And I'm not sure what kind of sex

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Speaker 1: I'm allowed to say on your show, So let's just

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00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: say not the regular sex. And in some states are

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00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: still considered sodomy. Go ahead, So so it just made

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00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: it so much more salacious. And Travis was such an

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Speaker 1: upstanding member of this church, and people loved him, and

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Speaker 1: he was such a good person, and so she joined

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Speaker 1: the church only because of him. And in fact, after

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Speaker 1: she was convicted, church kicked her out, excommunicated her, and

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Speaker 1: said they did not want her in. Alexis Durez Chuck,

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Speaker 1: investigator reporter with writer online dot Com. I understand that

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Speaker 1: jodi Arius the murderer is mounting an appeal. What's that

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Speaker 1: all about? So, yes, she has filed an appeal, She

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Speaker 1: has her attorneys, and she has a slew of complaints.

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Speaker 1: She says she blames her first attorney, Kirk Nurmi, for

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Speaker 1: inappropriate actions with her, saying that the way that he

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Speaker 1: spoke to the jury about her, saying at the closing

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Speaker 1: arguments nine out of ten days, I hate jodi Arius too,

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Speaker 1: but just because she hater doesn't mean she's guilty, and

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Speaker 1: she said that the fact that he wrote a book

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Speaker 1: compromised her legal advice, and she wants the appeals court

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Speaker 1: to overturn her conviction because she has a bad lawyer.

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Speaker 1: She had a bad lawyer. She also says that the

427
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 1: prosecutor acted inappropriately, which I believe he's been investigated to

428
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: no charges or actions have been taken against him, and

429
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 1: she just wants every season the books to get out

430
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: of the fact that she not murdered her boyfriend but

431
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,119
Speaker 1: confess to it on the stand. Take a listen to

432
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 1: what the jury heard. Would you agree that you're the

433
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 1: person who actually slid mister Alexander's throat from ear to ear? Yes?

434
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: Would you also agree that you're the individual that stabbed

435
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 1: him in the upper torso yes. And you're doing all

436
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 1: of this too, according to your version of events, you're

437
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 1: doing to this as individual after you have already shot

438
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 1: it right, Yes, correct? I believe so. Well. No, do

439
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: you remember previously talking to us about how he was

440
00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 1: coming out you and he was this horrible man with

441
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,320
Speaker 1: his mean face. Do you remember telling me that, yes,

442
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: I didn't say he was cold? Okay, thank you? For

443
00:27:09,520 --> 00:27:11,919
Speaker 1: correcting me. But do you remember telling us that he

444
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 1: was a mean man. Not today, well, previously, previously you

445
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 1: did say that he was a meaning correct. I think

446
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,400
Speaker 1: I did, yes. And on this particular occasion you told

447
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: us that he was cursing at you, right, yes, and

448
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 1: that he threw you down right, yes, that he chased

449
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: you down right. Yes. And this is the individual that

450
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: you shot first, right, He didn't know if I shot him.

451
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 1: It just clearly righted it off. The gun went off, right.

452
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 1: You could at least say knowledge, Yes, that's something that

453
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 1: you did here. Correct. Yes, you know what scary alexis

454
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 1: is like Charles Manson, whose descendance was commuted to life.

455
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: Manson went before a parole board over and overboard. He

456
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 1: finally died basically of old age. I fear one day

457
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: jodi Arius is going to walk free. What do you think?

458
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: I hope not. I hope that jodi Arius serves her

459
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 1: natural life in prison behind bars. I do not think,

460
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: after attending the trial and living that trial for so

461
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: many years, I do not think that the appeals court

462
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: will overturn him. Five stories with Nancy Grace. Jodi Arius

463
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 1: is convicted of murdering her lover, stabbing him twenty six times,

464
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 1: leaving his dead body slumped over in the shower, shooting

465
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: him in the head. I remember the shocking scenario that

466
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: was proven by physical evidence unrefuted, that he was standing

467
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: at his bathroom mirror and blood was dripping down and

468
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: he saw himself dying. I remember it like it was

469
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: yesterday for me. It's a memory. For his family, it's

470
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: never ending pain. Today our thoughts with the family of

471
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 1: Travis Alexander and a life cut short. I think about

472
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 1: them so often. How are they doing now? They are

473
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: doing well with their lives. They were devastated when Travis

474
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: was killed by Jody, and even more crushed by the

475
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 1: antics that she pulled in the courtroom and with all

476
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 1: of her interviews and trying to say that he was

477
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: a child molester and really drag him through the mud.

478
00:29:56,280 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 1: But they celebrate his life. However, Jody needles them relentlessly.

479
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: Whenever she has to send them a check, a restitution check,

480
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: it just brings back the reminder of how upset they

481
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,959
Speaker 1: were and how terrible she is. And she has this

482
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: miserable little job where she makes forty cents an hour,

483
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: and so she sends them a five hundred dollars check

484
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:16,719
Speaker 1: yere and there, and it's just as a reminder of

485
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:19,360
Speaker 1: how she is still alive in their beloved Travis is not.

486
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: We can't go any further without pointing out that it

487
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: was Jody Arius herself who dragged sex into this trial,

488
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: not the prosecutor. Speaking of the prosecutor, Alexas, how is Martinez?

489
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: Why Martires is fine? He became quite a celebrity, is

490
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: still prosecuting cases, and he's known as the real bulldog

491
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,480
Speaker 1: in the legal community. Well, that leads me to the

492
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: defense attorney, Kirk Nermie, who tried over and over and

493
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: over to get off this case. How is kurk Nermi

494
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 1: doing now? Kirk had a tough time after the trial.

495
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: He was diagnosed with cancer, and he has said repeatedly

496
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: he told me, I'm sure he's told you that he

497
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 1: believes working with Jody Area exacerbated his cancer, caused him

498
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,680
Speaker 1: to have cancer. It was so stressful. He hated her.

499
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 1: He felt like she was the worst client he'd ever had.

500
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: He did try to get off the case, repeatedly begged

501
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: the judges to let them let him go, and he wouldn't.

502
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,200
Speaker 1: What he has said, I gave her a great defense.

503
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: She admitted she killed her boyfriend, she murdered him, and

504
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 1: I protected her from the death penalty. So she should

505
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: be very thankful because she would have gotten the death penalty.

506
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 1: But it wasn't for me. I was thinking about all

507
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: those phone six tapes. Take a listen to this. You

508
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: are in the bath. Oh when we took a bath together,

509
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: that was that was surreal as honestly, I think, I mean,

510
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: maybe the candle light and the bubbles of all has

511
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: something to do with it. But you are amazing. You

512
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 1: made me, seriously, you made me feel like a goddess.

513
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: I I wasn't saying you were like worshiping me, but

514
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 1: you were. You made me sure like I was the

515
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: most freaking beautiful woman on the whole planet. Like I

516
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,959
Speaker 1: so felt like I was Forgottes and so aside from

517
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: all those warm, fuzzy feelings, but like it was was

518
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: so sexy and it was so hot and oh gosh,

519
00:32:21,520 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: that's a hard could you weren't freaking you were hot?

520
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: Interview You are seriously having at right now because I

521
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: touched yourself. Yeah, I'm already right, I just started. I'm

522
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 1: gonna tell you to a tree. You like that, I'm

523
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:52,719
Speaker 1: gonna tell you to a tree, and oh my gosh,

524
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: that is so debasing. I like it. Joining me at

525
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: the special guest Kirk Nurmi, the Jodi Arius defense lawyer

526
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 1: and author of a bestseller Trapped with miss Arius. You

527
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: can find it on Amazon dot com. You know, Kirk,

528
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: A side of a calculated attack on you, after you

529
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 1: and the rest of your team had sat there and

530
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 1: given your blood, sweat and tears during that trial, just

531
00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: taken so much abuse, not from just Arius, but really everyone,

532
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: the whole public was against you, and to this day

533
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: you believe it contributed. Do you get in cancer? You know,

534
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: that's what malignant means, mal worry bad, That's what malignant means.

535
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: Do you really believe that, Kirk? I do. I mean,

536
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: obviously there's no way to prove it scientifically, but in

537
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 1: my heart, keep in mind, I was just signed miss

538
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: Arius's case in two thousand and nine. Thus she was

539
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: a part of my life, against my wishes, from probably

540
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 1: twenty ten to twenty fifteen, and everything that went along

541
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,879
Speaker 1: with defending her, having her attack me and interviews things

542
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:16,960
Speaker 1: of that nature caused great concern to me about my

543
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:19,879
Speaker 1: safety and that of my wife. Yes, I do. Over

544
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: those years, I believe that it eventually added up and

545
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:27,320
Speaker 1: that's what turned my healthy blood cells into cancers tumors.

546
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: Her trial turned into an international Barnum and Bailey circus

547
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 1: where Nurmi was, against his will, elected ringmaster. I want

548
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: to hear what it was like. See, I always saw

549
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: her at a distance, like looking at a tarantula in

550
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 1: a glass box. I was at a distance, of course,

551
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 1: except for the time she shot a bird at me

552
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 1: in court. But needless to say, she wasn't the first

553
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: and no doubt won't be the last. But Kirk, what

554
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 1: was it like being with her? Why was there such

555
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: a contentio this relationship between you two? Well, obviously a

556
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 1: lot of that has privileged but you know, my job,

557
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: the way I look at it anyway, is a detachment.

558
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 1: I'm not there to support what she did. I'm not

559
00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: there to I'm just there to help her, support her story.

560
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: I'm not there to be her friend. And you know that.

561
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 1: Without saying too much, I think that speaks volumes. I'm

562
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 1: trying to. I'm trying to interpret that. In your book,

563
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 1: Trapped with miss Arius, you touch on so many different topics.

564
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: What do you think was the biggest bombshell in your book.

565
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,800
Speaker 1: I think so that probably the biggest bombshell was talking

566
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 1: about that attachment she had, And this kind of correlates

567
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 1: to what I said earlier about her kind of at

568
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: some point in time viewing me as her boyfriend. I

569
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: was the most significant man in her life, and I

570
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: was there to do a job. I was not there

571
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: to be her friend or supporter and any way other

572
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: than to advocate her case in the courtroom. Alexas, what's

573
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: your take on Jody Arius. Judy Arius is a psychopath.

574
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 1: She you know, because she spoke about you all the time.

575
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 1: I think she even one time dragged her finger across

576
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 1: her throat like she wanted to cut your throat. She

577
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: has called me personally crazy after I wrote stories, literally

578
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:26,400
Speaker 1: sacks from the prison about her, called me obsessed with her.

579
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:28,400
Speaker 1: I am not obsessed with her. You are not obsessed

580
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,080
Speaker 1: with her. We are obsessed with getting the truth and

581
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: justice for people that were involved in this case, meaning

582
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 1: Travis Alexander. She has a huge ego. Even locked up

583
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: behind bars, the world revolves only around Jody Arias. She

584
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 1: was a liar. She was a proven liar. She was

585
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: very sneaky, and she very methodically planned Travis Alexander's murder. Alexas,

586
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: do you remember the day she shot a bird at

587
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: me in the courtroom. That's just something I will never forget.

588
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: I do remember that she turned around and and pull

589
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: her middle finger up on her chin. Ever, everybody was done,

590
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,439
Speaker 1: The whole country was done. It was amazing. She had

591
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: no sense of what is right or wrong, and she

592
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: just thought she was wrongly accused of killing her boyfriend.

593
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: Even though she admitted I'll always have our time in

594
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 1: court together when she shot a bird at me. We'll

595
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: always have Arizona, my happy memories of Jodi Arias. But

596
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: you know what, I have to say that I've met

597
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 1: an American Idol because Jodi Aris did win American Idol.

598
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: Behind bars, take a listen, Oh holy night, the stars

599
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: are Bradley shine. It is a nighte of our dear

600
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:45,439
Speaker 1: sy Fancy Grace Crime Stories. Signing off, goodbye friend,