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Speaker 1: Ridiculous crime. It's a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: And there she is here, I am look at me.

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Speaker 2: It's me Zeron Burnette.

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Speaker 3: How you doing good? You're doing good?

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Speaker 2: Yeah you.

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Speaker 3: Let's skip past that and we'll get into my question,

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Speaker 3: which is, do you know what's ridiculous?

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Speaker 2: I do. I do know it's ridiculous. It's a mashup,

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Speaker 2: but a good one. Hannah on Instagram, founder of Folkways Press,

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Speaker 2: just sent this to me. Uh, it's a mashup of

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Speaker 2: this glass like eyeglasses company camp that they do. They're

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Speaker 2: like teamed up with the US for service for Smokey Bear.

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Speaker 3: Oh and I like him.

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Speaker 2: I was like, well this is cool. And then I

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Speaker 2: looked at all of them. I'm like, these kind of

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Speaker 2: like the glasses already were so now I think I

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Speaker 2: need some, Okay, And uh, it's a good mashup. What Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So it's s hwood shop dot com and you go

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Speaker 2: and they have the Smokey Bear what have you. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: they're pretty dope looking glasses. Here. We look like they're

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Speaker 2: made out of wood, but I think they're not.

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Speaker 3: But New Year, New Elizabeth, like, what is this? Is

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Speaker 3: it a mashup? I don't even hate.

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Speaker 2: And you know what, I'm gonna stop right there. That's it.

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Speaker 2: It's not going to drag on forever.

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Speaker 3: No quotes from a PR person in the company.

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Speaker 2: Now, I'm just gonna be like, oh, you know what,

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Speaker 2: they make smokey bird glasses, and I love the Forest

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Speaker 2: Service and the proceeds go to help fight wildfires. Wow,

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Speaker 2: it just gets better and better.

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Speaker 3: Twenty six. You're already looking up.

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Speaker 2: I know you're welcome.

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Speaker 3: Well, I got something ridiculous for you, girl. Yes, sir,

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Speaker 3: imagine you're a world famous athlete and you're one of

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Speaker 3: the fastest to ever do it.

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Speaker 2: Right up, I don't have to imagine.

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Speaker 3: I know you don't, but right up until your crimes

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Speaker 3: eventually catch up to you. Oh, because, as you know, Elizabeth,

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Speaker 3: the past is never truly gone.

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Speaker 2: That is true.

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Speaker 3: This is Ridiculous Crime, a podcast about absurd and outrageous capers, heists,

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Speaker 3: and cons. It's always ninety nine percent murder free and

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Speaker 3: one hundred percent ridiculous. Ridiculous, Elizabeth, this is a story

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Speaker 3: I've waited to tell you. Really, it's a favorite of mine.

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Speaker 3: It's part one of a multi part story about doping

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Speaker 3: in sports. The other parts I'll tell you at a

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Speaker 3: later date, but for now, Part one is about the

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Speaker 3: world's most famous cyclist, Lance Armstrong. Lance Lance. I've told

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Speaker 3: you about my personal connection to Lance Armstrong. It's not

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Speaker 3: really much of a connection. It's more like a long

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Speaker 3: running bit. But my friend Derek and I had we

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Speaker 3: had this little game we'd like to play when we

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Speaker 3: weren't on our own bikes and we were just rolling

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Speaker 3: around in cages, I mean cars, and anytime that we

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Speaker 3: saw a cyclist in there, Likera gear, we'd both yell Lance.

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Speaker 3: Why that made us laugh so hard? I can't tell you,

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Speaker 3: but it did. My point is Lance Armstrong has been

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Speaker 3: a joke to us for a long time. Yeah, mostly

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Speaker 3: because every July we'd watched the Tour de France together

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Speaker 3: and for years Lance dominated that multi stage race around

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Speaker 3: for it. And Lance was so full of himself, Oh

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Speaker 3: my god, which is saying a lot since he's a cyclist.

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Speaker 2: He's living strong there, my kid, I.

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Speaker 3: Kid cyclists, I'm one of you. But seriously, Lance Armstrong

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Speaker 3: had a high opinion of Lance Armstrong, as this story

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Speaker 3: will make evidence. So what's the story. Well, I'm glad

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Speaker 3: you asked him.

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Speaker 2: Yes, thank you.

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Speaker 3: I think you already know the general shape and the

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Speaker 3: contours of this one. I think you probably remember.

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Speaker 2: It, Lance Strong.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's caught doping. He loses everything. Right, that's not

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Speaker 3: the full story, because, as you know, the devil is

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Speaker 3: in the details always, So first step, who is Lance Armstrong?

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Speaker 2: Good question, fantastic question. You asked that.

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Speaker 3: Lance Gunderson was born in nineteen seventy one in the

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Speaker 3: town of Richardson, Texas. It's a suburb of Dallas. He

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Speaker 3: was born Lance Gunderson Gunderson. Yeah, so you know the

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Speaker 3: calculator company, Texas Instruments. Yes, Well, in nineteen fifty six

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Speaker 3: they set up shop at the border of Richardson, and

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Speaker 3: after that the town grew in size and prestige. Suddenly

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Speaker 3: the real estate's valuable. You could say, Richardson is the

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Speaker 3: town that calculators built. Anyway, soon enough.

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Speaker 2: After he was born, Richardson is the town that calculators built.

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Speaker 2: You told me I could say it, I.

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Speaker 3: Could say it. You did do it.

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Speaker 2: It was horrible.

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Speaker 3: Anyway, soon after he's born to Richardson, his parents get divorced.

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Speaker 3: Little Lance was just two years old. His mother soon remarried,

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Speaker 3: and little Lance took the name of his new stepfather,

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Speaker 3: and that's how he became Lance Armstrong. Fast forward to

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Speaker 3: his teenage years. We don't need to go over his

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Speaker 3: whole childhood. By the age of sixteen, Lance Armstrong he

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Speaker 3: shows this aptitude for athletics. His first success is as

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Speaker 3: a triathlete, you know, running, swimming, and biking right.

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Speaker 2: Within a tumbling.

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Speaker 3: Within a few years he's a national champion triathlete. It

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Speaker 3: feels like triathletes were much more of an eighties nineties thing,

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Speaker 3: back when you'd hear about who won the annual iron

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Speaker 3: Man competition. Yeah, you don't hear about that anymore.

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Speaker 2: No, No, I got a bunch of friends that do triathlons too.

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Speaker 3: Much like the national conversation. Yeah you don't hear about

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Speaker 3: the who won the iron Man basically, yeah, I think

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Speaker 3: in the nineties other extreme sports began to surpass that

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Speaker 3: OJA ruling competition. Anyway, That's where Lance Armstrong first makes

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Speaker 3: a name for himself swimming, cycling, the running. Then in

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Speaker 3: nineteen ninety two he switches it up. He focuses solely

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Speaker 3: on cycling and he turns pro as a cyclist. That

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Speaker 3: same year he did not want to do the runs

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Speaker 3: no more. The swim for him. So he joins the

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Speaker 3: Motorola cycling team, which was like one of the best

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Speaker 3: in the world at the time, and from the jump,

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Speaker 3: he's damn good. In nineteen ninety three, he competes in

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Speaker 3: the Tour de France. He wins the stage, which is shocking, right,

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Speaker 3: first time out, totally. Now, later that same year, he

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Speaker 3: wins the World Road Race Championship.

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Speaker 2: I thought you're gonna say road rage.

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Speaker 3: No, this is so excited. For a second. This starts

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Speaker 3: a string of wins for Lance that culminates in him

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Speaker 3: winning the Triple Crown in cycling. He won the Thrift

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Speaker 3: Drug Classic in Pittsburgh. Oh, he won the Kmart West

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Speaker 3: Virginia Classic, honey, And finally he won the Core States

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Speaker 3: US Pro National Championships in Philly.

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Speaker 2: Now that sounds like a legitimate race.

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Speaker 3: So it's not exactly like, oh, Belmont, the Preakness and

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Speaker 3: Kentucky Derby, but you get the idea that would have

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Speaker 3: been amazing to beat the horses. So this is also

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Speaker 3: Elizabeth when the first allegations of his cheating pops into

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Speaker 3: this story.

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Speaker 2: Okay that early, yes, because.

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Speaker 3: Apparently one of the cyclists he was competing against in

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Speaker 3: the national championship. Alleges that Lance bribed him to let

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Speaker 3: Lance win so he could take the triple crown. That

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Speaker 3: was just a bribe. But soon enough, by nineteen ninety five,

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Speaker 3: Lance moved on to performance enhancing drugs. Anyway, the next year,

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Speaker 3: Lance's his ascendant career, right, it continues its rise. He

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Speaker 3: competes at the nineteen ninety six Summer Olympics in my

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Speaker 3: hometown of Atlanta, Georgia. However, he didn't medal in the

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Speaker 3: Olympics and said he finished twelfth in the road race.

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Speaker 3: You know what that means, He's gonna need to dope

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Speaker 3: even harder.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but all.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, later on in that same year, tragedy struck Elizabeth.

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Speaker 3: His cycling career had to be put on hold when

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Speaker 3: Lance Armstrong was diagnosed with testicular cancer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I remember that.

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Speaker 3: It was bad, like his doctors didn't think he would live.

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Speaker 2: Oh really.

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Speaker 3: However, if there's one thing we can say about Lance Armstrong,

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Speaker 3: he is committed to winning, and so he dedicates himself

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Speaker 3: to beating cancer. It works. He defies the expectations of

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Speaker 3: his doctors. He beats testicular cancer for him, right, and

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Speaker 3: then after his cancer is in remission. He founds the

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Speaker 3: Lance Armstrong Foundation in order to help other cancer survivors.

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Speaker 3: That's a good thing, totally. It would later change its

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Speaker 3: name to the Livestrong Foundation.

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Speaker 2: With the yellow Yeah bracelets.

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Speaker 3: Right, yeah, you remember those. More on those later now.

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Speaker 3: The next year, nineteen ninety seven, Lance Armstrong meets Kristin Richard.

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Speaker 3: The two headed off. They get married. The following year,

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Speaker 3: the couple gets right to work on having a family.

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Speaker 3: They welcome a son in October of ninety nine, a

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Speaker 3: pair of twin daughters in two thousand and one. Now

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Speaker 3: you may be wondering, how does the testicular cancer survivor

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Speaker 3: pull off this miracle?

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Speaker 2: I wasn't wondering that his business.

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Speaker 3: Well, he had his testicles removed, not both of them,

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Speaker 3: the one. Yeah, But it was like he wasn't like

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Speaker 3: it was the odds were against him. People were surprised.

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Speaker 3: And it turns out Lance had foresight. He'd made some

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Speaker 3: deposits at the sperm bank. Yeah, he created using his

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Speaker 3: junk from before his he had surgery. Anyway, back to cycling.

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Speaker 3: In ninety eight, Lance gets back on the saddle and

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Speaker 3: launches this improbable comeback. Nobody thinks it's possible, but again

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Speaker 3: he's like, I'm committed to winning. His first attempts though

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Speaker 3: or met with failure. But that just shows Lance will

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Speaker 3: need to work even harder if he wants to return

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Speaker 3: to professional cycling. So in nineteen ninety eight, that same year,

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Speaker 3: when many in cycling believe Lance will never get back

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Speaker 3: to his championship status and they expect him to soon

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Speaker 3: retire from the sport. Instead, he joins the US Postal

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Speaker 3: Service team and he competes at the highest levels of cycling.

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Speaker 2: And again delivering the mail.

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Speaker 3: He excels. He doesn't win, but he unexpectedly finishes fourth

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Speaker 3: at the World Championships of Cycling that year.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: The next year, ninety nine, Lance roars back onto the

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Speaker 3: professional cycling scene when he competes in the Tour de France,

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Speaker 3: which is the coolest, biggest, exactly, it's the best race

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Speaker 3: in the world. He stuns everybody. He wins the whole

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Speaker 3: damn thing.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: No one saw that coming, no one but Lance Armstrong. However,

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Speaker 3: there was an asterisk on his victory because he competed

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Speaker 3: in a field of cyclists that was missing two of

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Speaker 3: the best racers in the sport. So folks were like, well, sure,

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Speaker 3: it's impressive that Lance beat cancer and he came back

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Speaker 3: to win the Tour de France. But he didn't beat

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Speaker 3: the best in the world.

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Speaker 2: That's kind of rough, right, So.

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Speaker 3: The next year in two thousand, the best were back

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Speaker 3: in the saddle with him, all ready to challenge Lance

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Speaker 3: in the Tour de France, and wouldn't you know it,

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Speaker 3: Lance still wins the damn thing.

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Speaker 2: Nice.

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Speaker 3: In fact, he increases his pace and wins by six

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Speaker 3: minutes over this other cyclist yng six minute. Yeah, he

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Speaker 3: beats jan Ulrich, who many believe was the best in

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Speaker 3: the world at the time. Yeah, and had been absent

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Speaker 3: the year prior.

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Speaker 2: Huge, it's a huge amount of time.

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Speaker 3: Oh totally. He's normally winning like a minute and a half,

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Speaker 3: two minutes, now six minutes.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever seen the pictures from the like original

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Speaker 2: Tour de France where they're like smoking siuts.

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Speaker 3: Total and they stop and have wine breaks, wine and

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Speaker 3: cheese breaks.

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Speaker 2: Still do that?

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Speaker 3: They really should now that same summer, Lance he competes

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Speaker 3: in the Summer Olympics in Sydney, Australia, where he finishes third,

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Speaker 3: which means he medals and takes the bronze. Following year

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Speaker 3: two thousand and one, Lance returns to the Tour de

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Speaker 3: France and wouldn't you know it, Elizabeth, he wins again.

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Speaker 3: Now he's won three times in a row. The world

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Speaker 3: of cycling is a gog. Who is this guy? There was?

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Speaker 2: Why didn't he win at the Olympics?

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Speaker 3: That's weird, tough competition. So then the next year, two

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Speaker 3: thousand and two, he does it again. Lance wins the

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Speaker 3: Tour de France for a fourth time in a row.

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Speaker 3: It's truly an exceptional victory. Yes, suddenly Lance Armstrong is

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Speaker 3: considered the best cyclist in the world. However, I should

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Speaker 3: point out something, he didn't do it alone. I don't

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Speaker 3: know if you know how the Tour de France works entirely,

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Speaker 3: but you race as part of a team, which means

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Speaker 3: team members take turns as a lead racer for the team.

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Speaker 3: This allows the other team members to ride in their

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Speaker 3: lipstream back in the rest of the peloton, which means

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Speaker 3: in they ride against reduced wind and they experience less drag,

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Speaker 3: which keeps their legs like fresh for that final push

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Speaker 3: at the end of the day stage. So although Lance

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Speaker 3: wins the Tour de France, it's really a team victory. Sure,

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Speaker 3: sure Anyway. The next year, two thousand and three, Lance

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Speaker 3: wins the Tour de France again, stretching a streak of

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Speaker 3: victories to five in a row. It's incredible. By this point,

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Speaker 3: people who aren't even cycling fans, they know his name.

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Speaker 3: Many are tuning in to watch the Tour de France

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Speaker 3: just to see if Lance can do it again. Notably,

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Speaker 3: in that year's Tour de France, in a late stage,

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Speaker 3: Lance was leading when one of the race spectators who

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Speaker 3: crowded the roadside, they collided with Lance and their handbag

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Speaker 3: wraps around his handlebars and he nearly crashes, which is

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Speaker 3: bad on a bike, especially when you have like you know,

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Speaker 3: no hair nearly your legs. You go down. Well help

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Speaker 3: with the crash, but it's like his main competitor, Jan Ulrich,

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Speaker 3: the former best cyclist in the world. He decides not

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Speaker 3: to take advantage of this mishap and he waits for

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Speaker 3: Lance to get back on the race. This show of

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Speaker 3: sportsmanship is heralded by the cycling world, especially when Lance

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Speaker 3: goes on to win the tour yet again. Little did

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Speaker 3: folks know that Lance was not so committed to fair

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Speaker 3: play himself. Now at this point, Lance did suffer a

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Speaker 3: major loss. That same year, his marriage falls apart. Turns

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Speaker 3: out Lance was also cheating on his wife.

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Speaker 2: You're kidding.

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Speaker 3: Yes, tabloid stories come out that that celebrate the fact

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Speaker 3: that the newly singled Lance is now dating the singer

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Speaker 3: songwriter Cheryl Crow.

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Speaker 2: It's like vague memories. Remember that moment three years old?

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Speaker 3: Remember so the pair, they become the celebrity couple. They

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Speaker 3: eventually announced their engagement to get married. In fact, Cheryl

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Speaker 3: Crow puts her own career on hold to support her

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Speaker 3: new boat. She even moves to her Hona, Spain, which

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Speaker 3: is this major hub of cycling and a training ground.

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Speaker 3: But then cheating pops back up and the couple never

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Speaker 3: reaches the altar.

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Speaker 2: Wait break up.

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Speaker 3: The next year. No, in this case, well, I don't

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Speaker 3: know if he on her, but I do know from

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Speaker 3: her that the cheating wasn't necessarily inside the relationships. Why

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Speaker 3: they broke up, it was that well, I'll just put

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Speaker 3: it this way, Cheryl Crow said he lied to me too,

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Speaker 3: And this was in reference to him as a professional cyclist.

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Speaker 2: Oh, you're kidding.

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Speaker 3: The allegations were starting to come out.

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Speaker 2: That's integrity right there, right.

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Speaker 3: And I respected her. Now, before we get into all

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Speaker 3: of this, we have a couple more Tours de France

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Speaker 3: to get through. So stepping back in time, in two

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Speaker 3: thousand and four, Lance wins the Tour de France for

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Speaker 3: the sixth time in our way in a row. Incredible.

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Speaker 3: He follows that with a record seventh win in the

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Speaker 3: Tour de France the next year, two thousand and five.

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Speaker 3: He's also sets a record for the fastest pace in

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Speaker 3: tour history. He averaged twenty six miles per hour at

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Speaker 3: every moment of the race.

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Speaker 2: Essentially, it's like superhuman.

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Speaker 3: Totally, It's ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he's Greg Lamont.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad you bring him up. So after that record

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Speaker 3: setting campaign, Lance announces that he plans to retire from

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Speaker 3: professional cycling. Why, you may ask, you're at the top

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Speaker 3: of your Yeah, why because does he put it at

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Speaker 3: the time, he plans to quote spend more time with

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Speaker 3: his family and his foundation.

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Speaker 2: What family, like his wife does? I want nothing to

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Speaker 2: do with you.

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Speaker 3: I think he just means his kids, guys. But not

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Speaker 3: only that, there's also talk that he might go into politics.

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Speaker 3: It's like the reverse for most people, like they leave

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Speaker 3: politics to spend time with their friend, their family and

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Speaker 3: their kids. So he's like, no, I'm gonna go into politics.

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Speaker 3: And so that's how popular and how famous he was.

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Speaker 3: At this point, people thought Lance Armstrong could and should

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Speaker 3: be the next governor of Texas.

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Speaker 2: Wow, what a different timeline, right.

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Speaker 3: And in fact President George W. Bush, the former governor

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Speaker 3: of Texas, supported the idea because you see these two Texans.

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Speaker 3: They used to go cycling together at the President's ranch

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Speaker 3: in Texas.

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Speaker 2: Interesting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they were buddies, good buddies. Now, before he can

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Speaker 3: announce his candidacy for governor of Texas, Lance goes on

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Speaker 3: the Charlie Rose Show, the old Charlie Roashow Desk, Yeah,

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Speaker 3: on PBS, and he confesses that he's decided to forego

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Speaker 3: an entry into politics. I'll give you one guess why

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Speaker 3: he decides politics is not for.

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Speaker 2: Him, Citizens United Ruling.

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Speaker 3: Good call. But it's actually by this point talk is

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Speaker 3: all around that Lance is a cheater now, because you

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Speaker 3: may recall, by this point Lance had been cheating since

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Speaker 3: way back in the nineties. Yeah, and talk of him

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Speaker 3: doping dated back to his first victory in the Tour

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Speaker 3: de France in nineteen ninety nine. Yeah, despite the many

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Speaker 3: whispers against him, Lance insists it's a smear campaign. He

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Speaker 3: vociferously denies he's ever used any performance enhancing drugs. But then, Elizabeth,

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Speaker 3: the truth begins to come out, and when it does,

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Speaker 3: it ruins everything. I'm talking all his hard work, his victories,

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Speaker 3: his records, his celebrity status, even his cancer foundation.

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Speaker 2: Well, there was a time when like op research in

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Speaker 2: politics was so flawless. Oh yeah, and they would get

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Speaker 2: absolutely everything and then it could tank campaigns.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I think that because it works anymore. But well, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I think these people believe that all the politicians are dirty.

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Speaker 3: So now you don't have now exactly, but it used.

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Speaker 2: To be like you knew, like, oh man, they're going

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Speaker 2: to lock in and get everything on this person.

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Speaker 3: He's gonna get Gary harted. Yes, before we get into

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Speaker 3: all of his what he loses, let's take a little

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Speaker 3: break and after these messages, we'll get into blood doping.

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Speaker 4: It's so weird, and we're back, Elizabeth the area.

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Speaker 3: So about those blood doping allegations. Blood doping, It turns

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Speaker 3: out all during his seven year run of winds at

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Speaker 3: the Tour de France, there was plenty of talk that

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Speaker 3: Lance Armstrong was cheating, and this was helped along by

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Speaker 3: his tendency to attack his fellow professional cyclists who spoke

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Speaker 3: out against doping and cycling.

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Speaker 2: Wait, it's not just against him, but just in general

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Speaker 2: in general.

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Speaker 3: You see, back in nineteen ninety nine, when Lance won

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Speaker 3: his first Tour de France, there was something called the

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Speaker 3: Festina affair, which sounds far more risky than.

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Speaker 2: It was sounds fun.

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Speaker 3: There's this cyclist named Christoph Bessons who rides for Team Festina.

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Speaker 3: He's the only member of the team who was not doping,

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Speaker 3: and that same year ninety nine, Christoph writes a series

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Speaker 3: of articles for the French press about the prevalence of

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Speaker 3: doping and cycling and he says it's rampant.

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Speaker 2: Huh.

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Speaker 3: Well, Lance Armstrong don't like that, so he confronts Christoph

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Speaker 3: and he does it during the ninety nine Tour de.

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Speaker 2: France, like while they're both on bike riding.

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Speaker 3: Literally, according to baston Hitting, Armstrong rides up alongside him

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Speaker 3: and confronts him about his whistleblowing in the French press. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: like they got time to talk. So apparently Armstrong tells

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Speaker 3: Bessans and I quote, it was a mistake to speak

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Speaker 3: out the way I do, And he asked why I

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Speaker 3: was doing it. I told him that I'm thinking of

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Speaker 3: the next generation of riders, and then he said, why

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Speaker 3: don't you leave? Then? What? Yes, it wasn't even that

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Speaker 3: he was mentioning Lance's name. He was just talking about how.

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Speaker 2: Prevalent it is, yeah, in general, and just disappointment with it. Yeah, unbelievable.

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Speaker 3: So when word of their mid race conflicts emerges, Armstrong

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Speaker 3: then tells a reporter from a French TV station that

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Speaker 3: and I quote, his accusations aren't good for cycling, for

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Speaker 3: his team, for me, for anybody. If he thinks cycling

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Speaker 3: works like that, he's wrong and he'd be better off

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Speaker 3: going home. There's a heavy emphasis on his accusations aren't

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Speaker 3: good for me, Lance arms stage.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. It's one of those things where it's like

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Speaker 2: there shouldn't be a question of you get out there

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Speaker 2: and you say doping's bad, you know, just like if

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Speaker 2: you were to say, like, don't don't do illegal things. Sure,

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Speaker 2: you know, okay, well that's you know, that's a statement

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Speaker 2: that shouldn't have blowback.

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Speaker 3: I just but if you come out and you say

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Speaker 3: everyone in Cleveland is doing illegal things. Someone in Cleveland

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Speaker 3: might get mad well, just as a counterpoint. Yeah, but

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Speaker 3: really Lance's concern was I don't need people poking around

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Speaker 3: asking a bunch of questions and coming up with new

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Speaker 3: drug tests. True, because I'm just beating the ones they

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Speaker 3: have and they don't have, so don't ask for no.

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Speaker 2: One should have been like, yeah, don't dope. That's terrible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but they didn't want the best cyclist in the

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Speaker 3: world to agree that it's occurring, because then that gives gravitas.

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Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden they got new tests

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Speaker 3: and everyone's got a pe in a jar at before

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Speaker 3: and after races what happened.

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Speaker 2: So at this point in a jar every day.

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Speaker 3: I know, and I want to talk to you about that.

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Speaker 3: This is Howard Hughes over here. I need introduce you

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Speaker 3: now to a key figure in this story. Enter Michelle Ferrari. Hello,

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Speaker 3: what a great name, right, A very sleazy guy. Michelle Ferrari,

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Speaker 3: as you might guess, is an Italian. He's technically doctor Ferrari. Doctor,

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Speaker 3: he's a physician. He's also a cycling coach. So doctor

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Speaker 3: Ferrari first met Lance back in ninety five. He was

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Speaker 3: a known figure in cycling, a doctor who was rumored

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Speaker 3: to be this dark force in the sport. You see,

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Speaker 3: when he was training as a physician, he studied anaerobic thresholds,

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Speaker 3: as in like how a human body maximizes its oxygen usee. Sure,

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Speaker 3: so the whispers were he was helping cyclists to beat

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Speaker 3: the many drug tests that they had to take. In fact,

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Speaker 3: when he heard that Lance was working with doctor Ferrari,

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Speaker 3: the organizer of the Tour de France, Jean Marie LeBlanc, said,

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Speaker 3: I am not happy that tune names are mixed. Yees.

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Speaker 3: So it was no big secret that doctor it's dirty. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Trouble was, it wasn't easy to prove that. Said doctor

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Speaker 3: Ferrari had been banned from practicing medicine to aid cyclists

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Speaker 3: by the Italian Cycling Federation. His own people were onto them, However,

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Speaker 3: the French had yet to take such a bold step. Okay, Elizabeth,

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Speaker 3: I got asked, do you know what EPO is?

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Speaker 2: EPO?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Not many do. EPO is a slang term for

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Speaker 3: a group of glycoprotein cytokines such as erythropoietine, hemo topopoetine,

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Speaker 3: and Hemopoietin those three mouthfuls are substances that the kidneys secrete. Okay, naturally, right,

435
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,679
Speaker 3: it's the body's way of dealing with hypoxia when you

436
00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,159
Speaker 3: have too little oxygen in the blood, which is you know,

437
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,679
Speaker 3: so EPO causes the body to create more red blood

438
00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:53,320
Speaker 3: cells from deep inside your bone marrow because that's where

439
00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,720
Speaker 3: you create red blood cells. And then obviously, if you're

440
00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:59,160
Speaker 3: competing in a grueling road race, the more oxygenated your

441
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,359
Speaker 3: blood is, the more red blood cells you have that

442
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 3: can carry oxygen to your spent muscles, the better a cyclist, Well,

443
00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:05,679
Speaker 3: do you need.

444
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 2: To be oxygenated so you can have conversations mid race?

445
00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:13,600
Speaker 2: Like most people are, like, hold on a second, we

446
00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:15,879
Speaker 2: get to this downhill part. I'll tell you, really need

447
00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:16,520
Speaker 2: to tell you.

448
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,240
Speaker 3: Fall back in the peloton with me, so were you

449
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,480
Speaker 3: can talk. So the talk was Doctor Ferrari was known

450
00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:25,199
Speaker 3: to inject Lance with doses of EPO. And I'm not

451
00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 3: saying that. One of Lance Armstrong's teammates said that just okay,

452
00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:34,159
Speaker 3: does Elizabeth meet George Henkapee hen Cappy Hi George. So

453
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,399
Speaker 3: he rode for the Motorola cycling team back in the

454
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,320
Speaker 3: early nineties and alongside Lance Armstrong. So according to his deposition,

455
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,440
Speaker 3: I'll get to that later. Hen Caappy said that quote.

456
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,720
Speaker 3: Prior to joining Motorola, I knew that Lance Armstrong was

457
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 3: on the team, as I had met him several years

458
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,040
Speaker 3: prior when we had raced on the national team together.

459
00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:53,960
Speaker 3: Lance and I were friends from the start, right. So

460
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,520
Speaker 3: he was also stated for the record that around that

461
00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,560
Speaker 3: same time and I quote during the nineteen ninety four

462
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,160
Speaker 3: I was given injections by the team's Belgian massage therapist

463
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 3: stop it. I asked what was in the injections and

464
00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 3: was told that the substances were legal products such as

465
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:13,760
Speaker 3: vitamin C, vitamin B twelve, and liver cleanser. Elizabeth, if

466
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 3: you ever find yourself being given a subcutaneous injection of

467
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,200
Speaker 3: something called liver cleaner by a Belgian massage.

468
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,679
Speaker 2: Therapist, I've made it this.

469
00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:23,719
Speaker 3: Things have already gotten out of control.

470
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,880
Speaker 2: Then I'm like a like Kardashian level influence. That's when

471
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 2: you know it doesn't get any better than this.

472
00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 3: So back to George Henkepy and his death position, he

473
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,040
Speaker 3: recalled that and I quote. In nineteen ninety five, there

474
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 3: appeared to be a major change in the peloton. It

475
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 3: was becoming very difficult to keep up, and I learned

476
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,680
Speaker 3: that the reason was, Well, Elizabeth, you want to guess

477
00:22:43,720 --> 00:22:47,879
Speaker 3: what it was, please, that's right, it was epo. So

478
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 3: this is when EPO emerges as the substance of choice

479
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,119
Speaker 3: for cheating. So back to George Henkpy the widespread uses

480
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,280
Speaker 3: of a erythro protein, a band of blood oxygen booster

481
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 3: for which there was at the time no effective doping test.

482
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:03,920
Speaker 2: Sure, it's like naturally occurring.

483
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:05,359
Speaker 3: Exactly in the body. How would you be able to

484
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 3: test for, like how much glucose do you have in

485
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,520
Speaker 3: your blood versus how much you should have? So, as

486
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,040
Speaker 3: Hinkapee puts it, there's obvious pressure to keep up with

487
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:16,160
Speaker 3: the other racers in the peloton, and I quote, as

488
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 3: the speed of the peloton increased, we seem to be

489
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,440
Speaker 3: confronted with the choice of using EPO or not performing

490
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 3: well in races. At this point in time, people in

491
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 3: the peloton were talking about EPO quite openly.

492
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, yeah, I mean that's the problem is

493
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,560
Speaker 2: that you're in this group and you got to keep up.

494
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:32,159
Speaker 3: You want to be a professional, if you want to

495
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 3: stay on the teams.

496
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 2: Everyone else is like speeding along afful oxygen.

497
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:40,840
Speaker 3: So just like his teammate Lance Armstrong, hin Kepi was

498
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 3: also quite familiar with doctor Ferrari. So now around the

499
00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:47,120
Speaker 3: same time as EPO becomes this trade secret in cycling

500
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 3: and changes the sport, hin Kapy takes notice of what

501
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 3: Lance is thinking and feeling about this advanced performance enhancing drug.

502
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 3: You see at the Milan San Remo race, their team

503
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 3: gets crushed and it pisses off An. I bet I

504
00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 3: think Kpie puts it, and I quote Lance Armstrong was

505
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,879
Speaker 3: very upset. As we drove home. Lance said in substance

506
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 3: that this is people are using stuff and we are

507
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 3: getting killed. He said in substance that he did not

508
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 3: want to get crushed anymore and something needed to be done.

509
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 3: So what needs to be done? Great question, Elizabeth. Back

510
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 3: to hink Ape, I understood that he meant the team

511
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 3: needed to get on EPO. Yeah, so the team leader

512
00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 3: is saying we all need to EPO up. Everyone's gonna write.

513
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 2: He's like got needles dangling out of his skins, like

514
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 2: I just want all the time.

515
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 3: So, being a good teammate, Hinkappy finds where he can

516
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 3: get his hands on some EPO it's for sale at

517
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 3: pharmacies in Switzerland.

518
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 2: CVS.

519
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 3: No, but in Switzerland the CVS yes.

520
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 2: Hey, they just sell it at a pharmacy. This sounds

521
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 2: like something that like you'd have to tinker in a

522
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 2: lab totally like isolate and yeah, what other who else

523
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 2: is getting it? Other medical application?

524
00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:57,719
Speaker 3: I wish I had a good answer for that. I mean,

525
00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 3: I could guess, but I don't know. Probably is perhaps

526
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 3: people who are having like a bone marror issues, bone cancer,

527
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 3: interesting things of that nature. Perhaps some of exactly things

528
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 3: of that nature. So that's where he goes. He goes

529
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 3: to a pharmacy in Switzerland. He picks himself up some EPO.

530
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,920
Speaker 3: He then begins to perform subcutaneous injections of EPO on

531
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 3: his own. No, like Belgian massage therapist. You just I

532
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:22,000
Speaker 3: got this one.

533
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 2: Jabb it is there? Or what if they like sell

534
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,760
Speaker 2: it like in a can like Monster energy drink, like

535
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 2: crack it over, drink, chugging that epo.

536
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,320
Speaker 3: Keep that thought in mind. No, as a Hincapy recalls,

537
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 3: I had made up my mind if I wanted to

538
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:37,239
Speaker 3: be a professional cyclist, I had to do this.

539
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:38,000
Speaker 2: Now.

540
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,159
Speaker 3: I remember professional cycling and events like the Tour de

541
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,679
Speaker 3: France is a team sport. If you're not doing what

542
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 3: all you can to win well, the team will find

543
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 3: someone who will. You don't want to be have like

544
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 3: Lance mad at you because you're not willing to inject

545
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 3: an experimental drug. Also, it seemed to Hincapy that all

546
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 3: the teams were doing it. So how could that be

547
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 3: cheating per se if they're all doing it?

548
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, just like a baseline for it.

549
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:00,959
Speaker 3: There's a fun aspect of EPO is that you need

550
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 3: to keep it cold, which meant that starting in ninety

551
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,199
Speaker 3: five ninety six, suddenly everyone in cycling is beginning to

552
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 3: carry thermises with them.

553
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 2: No, no, like Stanley cups.

554
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 3: Yes, it's exactly end and not just that. They also

555
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 3: had full on coolers like some of them were dragging.

556
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 3: Answered by yeah, exactly so, as Hincapi explains, guys began

557
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 3: carrying around coolers and coffee thermiss with ice in them.

558
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,199
Speaker 3: I generally recall it, almost everyone on our team had

559
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 3: a thermis. That's incredible, right, So thanks to EPO. Hincapi

560
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 3: also noted that our performance began to improve. Lance started

561
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,800
Speaker 3: to do better. So now team leader Lance isn't going

562
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,440
Speaker 3: to be pissed at him on the van back to

563
00:26:36,480 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 3: the hotel, and hin Kapi isn't going to get replaced

564
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,640
Speaker 3: right now. Remember when I mentioned the Festina affair. Yes, yes,

565
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 3: well it comes back into play because even if it

566
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 3: felt like everyone's using EPO, it's still illegal. So back

567
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 3: to Hincapy and I quote, I recall that in nineteen

568
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 3: ninety eight at the Tour de Front, the team staff

569
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 3: was very afraid of police attention given to doping as

570
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 3: a result of the Festina team having been caught with

571
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 3: doping substances. So what does that mean in real world.

572
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 2: The practical terms speaking to English.

573
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 3: Well, as Hincapy tells it, drugs were dumped overboard when

574
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 3: the ferry carrying the team was making the passage from Ireland,

575
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 3: where a portion of the tour had been run.

576
00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 2: Yes, so no, they're just jettisoning it.

577
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 3: Yes, knowing that there were other incidents such as when

578
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,199
Speaker 3: and I quote later during that tour, I was in

579
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,439
Speaker 3: the team camper when team staff flushed drugs down the

580
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 3: toilet of the team camper.

581
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 2: Well, it's not going to go very far, well it is.

582
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,640
Speaker 3: It's like liquid, so they can just pour it in and.

583
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 2: Flush in the tank to now they have to Now

584
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 2: they have to shoot up everything in the poop tank.

585
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 3: So they're like teens trying to get rid of flushing

586
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:48,639
Speaker 3: it in the toilet. So clearly everyone involved knows what

587
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 3: they're doing. Not only violates the rules of cycling, but

588
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 3: it's also illegal, as in they have to hide it

589
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 3: from the police, but they keep right on doping. Elizabeth. Now,

590
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 3: at this point, both Lance and George Hinkepi are riding

591
00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 3: for the US Postal Service cycling team, which is known

592
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 3: to be the best team in the world at this point.

593
00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 3: And it isn't just EPO that the team is injecting.

594
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 3: As Hincapy tells it, I recall using testosterone pills and

595
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,160
Speaker 3: HGH to recover after stages of the race and using EPO,

596
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 3: so there's everything. Yeah, they're just a little like pharmacies

597
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,600
Speaker 3: on wheels. So if you are, you know, into knowing

598
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 3: what all these acronyms are. HGH is short for human

599
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 3: growth hormone, So these cyclists are using a cocktail of

600
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:33,479
Speaker 3: human growth hormone, testosterone, and red blood stimulant aka EPO. Now,

601
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 3: the testosterone they were using is nicknamed the oil because

602
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 3: of this. The steroid andreol, which came in these red

603
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 3: gel caps, gets mixed with olive oil so that the

604
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 3: riders can swallow it and have it be absorbed by

605
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 3: the body. So as Hincapy puts it, many on the

606
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 3: team carried around little vials or bottles with this testosterone

607
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 3: olive oil mixture. So now they got like thermoces of EPO.

608
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 3: They got vials and bottles of olive oil mixture with

609
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 3: the testosterone. Oh man. So the way that the cycling

610
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 3: world tests for blood doping cheaters is to check a

611
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 3: writer's amadecriate level sir okay. So this is a medical

612
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 3: term for the percentage of red blood cells in the blood.

613
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 3: So this means doctor Ferrari and others like him had

614
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 3: to keep track of the writer's red blood cell count

615
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,479
Speaker 3: and know what their baseline was, and then they had

616
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 3: to ensure that the red blood cell count stayed below

617
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 3: a certain threshold, and if they got close to that threshold,

618
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 3: the writers would inject saline infusions to bring it down.

619
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 3: Oh my god, percentage wise. So you add that to

620
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 3: the list that are also injecting saline, which is just saltwater.

621
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 3: Yeah the blood, Yeah exactly. So they got another substance

622
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,280
Speaker 3: they got to keep on the van anyway, now that

623
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 3: the performance enhancing drugs had become rife and professional cycling.

624
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 3: This is the same time when in nineteen ninety nine

625
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 3: Lance wins his first of seven in a row tour

626
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 3: de Front's Championships.

627
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 2: Oh so this is so he started way okay. I

628
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 2: thought in my mind he was like doing the doping

629
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 2: like a couple wins in no.

630
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 3: Ramping up into it. So you better believe Lance is

631
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 3: now downing all the EPO and the oil he could

632
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 3: get his hands on. Because back to George Hincapy and

633
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 3: a race in Spain in two thousand, Lance indicated to

634
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 3: me he had taken testosterone. Lance told me he was

635
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 3: feeling good and recovered that he had just taken some oil.

636
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 5: Yeah.

637
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: So.

638
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 3: Also, being that their teammates, Hincapy helped Lance to avoid

639
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 3: the drug testers that would come around and ask for

640
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 3: blood work from the riders for testing. He tells this

641
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 3: one story and I quote when I heard that drug

642
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 3: testing of officials were at the hotel, I texted Lance

643
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 3: to warn him to avoid the place. As a result,

644
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 3: Lance dropped out of the race.

645
00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 2: Dropped out in order to avoid this wasn't.

646
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 3: So it was Lance who first put his teammate Hincapy

647
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 3: in touch with old doctor Ferrari, who then turned him

648
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 3: onto the new practice of blood doping via blood replacement,

649
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 3: wherein blood would be taken out of the body and

650
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 3: then reinfused just right before the race. So exactly. Yeah,

651
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 3: instead of having to put EPO, you're creating more blood

652
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 3: cells in your bone marrow and have that come out

653
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 3: into the blood. They're just taking blood out and then

654
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:07,440
Speaker 3: putting it back in. And so now you got extra blood,

655
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 3: extra oxygen, carrying red blood cells, and it's all yours,

656
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 3: so good luck finding it.

657
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: That's crazy, yes, and this is.

658
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 3: All under the direction of doctor Ferrari. His program of

659
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 3: blood extraction and replacement cost about fifteen thousand dollars for

660
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 3: the entire racing season. Now, if you multiplied it's affordable. No,

661
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 3: not bad. But if you multiply that fifteen grand by

662
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 3: several riders, possibly you know, dozens and dozens, doctor Ferrari

663
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 3: was making a pretty penny off for sure.

664
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

665
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 3: And the best part about blood doping versus performance and

666
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,240
Speaker 3: nanting drugs like EPO and testosteron HGH is there's no

667
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 3: test for your own drawn blood so you can just

668
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 3: replace it. And also the costs are really low. He's

669
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 3: just buying some syringes and a couple of blood bags.

670
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 3: It's not like he has to go and like buy

671
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 3: EPO at the pharmacy in Switzerland. So now this is

672
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 3: where Lance Armstrong's blood doping scandal gets its name. Over time,

673
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 3: he graduates from performance and enancing drugs to hot swapping

674
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 3: his own blood. Nuts. Okay, now it's time to dive

675
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 3: deeper into the scandal and see how it all comes

676
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 3: crashing down. But first, let's check some ads and when

677
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:12,720
Speaker 3: we're back we'll get to Lance and his blood doping ways.

678
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness, we're back, Elizabeth, Yes we are. Now.

679
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 2: First, I have a confession, mate, I was doping before

680
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 2: this recording.

681
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 3: I'm wondering why you had that bag hanging in.

682
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 2: No, I went I took three Adsville.

683
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 3: Oh that kind of blood doping.

684
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:52,280
Speaker 2: Now, granted, I would much rather prefer like dead stock kuludes. However,

685
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 2: you may do with what you have. Sure, so I

686
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 2: am on. I'm on ibuprofen right now.

687
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 3: Would you be slur your words if you had like

688
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 3: the quailude you want? But I have to like rouse

689
00:33:04,040 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 3: you a couple of times.

690
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 2: I know you'd be like Elizabeth, why are you so amazing?

691
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 2: Everything you say is perfect? Sparkling badger, Oh yeah, sparkle

692
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 2: neely sparkle, Oh my god, yeah that would be amazing. Okay,

693
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 2: well I feel like I would be at like my

694
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: optimal form on kulud.

695
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 3: Really Okay, I'll take your word for it. I'm just like,

696
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 3: give me a peanutut and jelly sandwich. We got to go.

697
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 3: You're like, I want dead stock.

698
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 2: They don't make him anymore. I never had a chance

699
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 2: to try ump, Sarah.

700
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 3: So how do you know good for just know in

701
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 3: my bone, in my blood trust from your reincarnated form.

702
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,959
Speaker 3: You're just like once you know what's on, you know,

703
00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 3: you know.

704
00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like you know, just like I know that

705
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 2: I would probably be like a total badass in like

706
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 2: renis like mid Renaissance Italy. So I think I would

707
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 2: just like I'd be bossing everyone around. I would dominate you.

708
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 3: You project yourself in a position of power, are Yeah,

709
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 3: you're not like a peasident.

710
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 2: Maybe I start as one that I don't end up

711
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,440
Speaker 2: as if I also.

712
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 3: One of those poison rings. You're just getting rid of

713
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,200
Speaker 3: the people. Okay, well, you'll want to know how we

714
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 3: know that Lance Armstrong cheated and he used this EPO

715
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 3: and the testacer on the HGH and finally went to

716
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 3: blood doping to win his records Tour de Front's victories.

717
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 3: These are great questions, Elizabeth. Well, we have obviously eyewitness accounts,

718
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,279
Speaker 3: because namely his teammates, they all know what he's doing,

719
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 3: especially a man named that's right, George Hinkepie. So in

720
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 3: his deposition he recalls how he traveled to Belgium and

721
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 3: to Spain to begin a program of blood doping under

722
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 3: medical supervision. And he'd meet in a hotel room like

723
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 3: he was having like a secret affair, only instead of

724
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 3: meeting a paramore, he'd meet a doctor, a man named

725
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 3: doctor del Morale, and one day, in a Spanish apartment

726
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 3: he rented while he was.

727
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 2: Training doctor dem he witnessed pretty.

728
00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 3: Much he witnessed Lance do the exact same thing, the

729
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 3: blood doping. However, rather than let me read you another

730
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 3: quote from Hankapy, Elizabeth, close your eyes.

731
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 2: My ass closed.

732
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:11,919
Speaker 3: I'd like you to picture it. The year is two

733
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 3: thousand and three. You are professional cyclist George Hankeappy at

734
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,800
Speaker 3: the moment. You are in a hotel room in Herona, Spain.

735
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 3: You've come back to this famous hub for professional cycling training.

736
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 3: It's been a long and tiring day. You're now lying

737
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 3: down and you're rented apartment, allowing your body the time

738
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 3: it needs for recovery. And then you hear your phone ring.

739
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 3: You wonder who could it possibly be calling you. You

740
00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 3: reach over with your weary muscles to answer the phone.

741
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 3: On the other end is your teammate, Lance Armstrong. You

742
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 3: greet him and ask what's up. Lance gets right to

743
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 3: the point. He tells you he needs to ask a favor,

744
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 3: and then, in hushed tones, he tells you that he

745
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 3: has guests in his apartment. He wants to know if

746
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 3: he can slip out come over to yours to do

747
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 3: something that he says is private. You're quick to say,

748
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 3: of course, Lance, come on over. Before he gets to

749
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 3: your apartment, you quickly tidy up. You pull your d

750
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,280
Speaker 3: jerseys and bike shorts off the shower bar in your bathroom.

751
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 3: You tuck them away in a drawer in a bureau.

752
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 3: You clean up your old pizza boxes. You're empty protein

753
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 3: bar wrappers. You toss all that in the trash. You

754
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 3: also straighten up your cycling magazines and the one stray

755
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 3: magazine on fly fishing that you picked up at the airport.

756
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:19,239
Speaker 3: You get the place in order just before you hear

757
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,800
Speaker 3: a knock at the door. You open the door and

758
00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 3: are surprised to see it's not just Lance. He's brought

759
00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 3: someone with him. It's a doctor. You recognize, doctor del Morale,

760
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 3: a physician you've worked with in the past to do

761
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 3: some blood doping. The odd thing is that not that

762
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:35,920
Speaker 3: he's there on your doorstep, but rather that he's holding

763
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 3: a blood bag, as in a bag of fresh human blood,

764
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 3: and based on his sheepish grin, you assume it's a

765
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 3: bag of Lance's blood. You tell them both please come in.

766
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 3: Once they step inside, the two men are all business.

767
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 3: Lance asks if you have a coat hanger he can borrow.

768
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 3: You say, of course, and you go to your bedroom

769
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 3: to grab one. You slide open the closet and retrieve

770
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 3: a coat hanger. You don't need to wonder what the

771
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 3: hangar is for, because you know so it's not for

772
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 3: the doctor to hang up his coat. You know it's

773
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 3: for the blood bag. Once you hand over the coat

774
00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 3: hanger to Lance, he grins at you, and he says,

775
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 3: thanks buddy. Then he gives a head nod to the doctor,

776
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 3: indicating for the physician to follow him, which he does.

777
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 3: Lance and the doctor step into your bedroom and shut

778
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 3: the door behind them, And then for the next forty

779
00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 3: five minutes, you sit on the couch in your living room.

780
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 3: You turn on the radio, You flip through the magazine

781
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 3: on fly fishing. You note the slow passage of time,

782
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 3: but you also know that around forty five minutes they

783
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,960
Speaker 3: should be done, since you know that's how long it

784
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 3: takes to reinfuse a human body with a blood bag.

785
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 3: You know that because you've done it. You also know

786
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 3: that behind that closed bedroom door, if you were to

787
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 3: open it, you'd find the coat hanger with the suspended

788
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,600
Speaker 3: blood bag taped to a wall as it drains Lance's

789
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 3: blood back into his body. You don't need to wonder,

790
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,919
Speaker 3: You know exactly what's going down. After the forty five

791
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 3: minutes pass, you hear the door to your bedroom open,

792
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 3: and outsteps the doctor and a refreshed looking Lance, flush

793
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 3: with his own blood. No one says anything about what

794
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 3: just went down behind the closed bedroom door, because everyone knows.

795
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 3: Lance gives you a wide smile and thanks you for

796
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 3: the use of your apartment. He hands you back to

797
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 3: the coat hanger. He says he'll see you later, buddy,

798
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 3: and with that they leave. Meanwhile, you stare at the

799
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 3: coat hanger in your hands, wondering if you should keep

800
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 3: it somewhere special. I mean, that coat hanger once held

801
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 3: Lance Armstrong's blood bag. So there you go, Elizabeth, Yeah,

802
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 3: the vampire blood doping.

803
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 2: I love him, just showing up at the door holding

804
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 2: like it's not even in like a cooler.

805
00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 3: No, he's just like, here's the blood, strutting around with

806
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 3: the bag of blood, and no one will ask questions

807
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 3: about this doctor. This is the eyewitness evidence of Lance

808
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 3: Armstrong's blood doping program. But that wasn't the only time you,

809
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 3: I mean, George witnessed his teammate's blood doping. In two

810
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 3: thousand and four at the Tour de France. He watched

811
00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 3: as his teammates on the team bus received blood transfusions.

812
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 3: They're like, are these windows tinted?

813
00:38:57,840 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 2: Just chugging along down the highway.

814
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 3: It was like a bring your own coat hanger party.

815
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 3: The next year, in two thousand and five, at Lance's

816
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,479
Speaker 3: final victorious Tour de France, his teammate George Incipe told

817
00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 3: Lance he needed some fresh cool EPO, and Lance replied

818
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 3: that he could help him out with some from his

819
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 3: own personal supply. He then handed over two chilled vials

820
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 3: of EPO. So he was well aware about Lance's use

821
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 3: of EPO and the blood doping via blood bags. Yeah,

822
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 3: that's not all, Elizabeth. He was also aware of his

823
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 3: teammates using cortizone, and he recalled that back in ninety nine,

824
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 3: Lance had tested positive for a cordico steroid at the

825
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 3: Tour de France, but that Lance excused it away by

826
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:40,320
Speaker 3: explaining that he used a cortizone cream to treat saddle sores,

827
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,879
Speaker 3: which he assumed was an excuse that he had hid

828
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:47,120
Speaker 3: the fact he actually received courtesan ejections, which were frequently

829
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 3: given by the team doctors to assist writers with their performance.

830
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 3: So all the performance enhancing methods of cheating were so

831
00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 3: common for Lance's team that the next year the Tour

832
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,720
Speaker 3: de France. In two thousand, as Hinkulpee reported and I quote,

833
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 3: French law enforcement had commenced an investigation regarding medical waste

834
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:06,720
Speaker 3: dumped by the US Postal Service team staff.

835
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 2: The medical taste French cops.

836
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 3: Were following around looking through their trash, going dore any

837
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 3: blood bags in here.

838
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,800
Speaker 2: What's crazy is it's like did you get a cortisone shot?

839
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 2: But then it's like you see like in American football,

840
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 2: they put him in a tent and god knows what

841
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 2: they show up with like their legs half off and

842
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 2: they you can do it. Yeah, it's like you can

843
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:27,799
Speaker 2: play on a broken shin.

844
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 3: You've ever been to a racetrack when a horse goes

845
00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 3: down and they bring out that white tent and then

846
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,160
Speaker 3: they like in the horse when they first got the

847
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 3: blue tents. That's what I kept thinking of.

848
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 2: I was just like, this is King Charles was like

849
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 2: his corent. They put him in the tent and toof

850
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,200
Speaker 2: and anointed him with oil and touched it.

851
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 3: When the French police did find evidence of the substance,

852
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 3: called active virgin or active vegan UH, it's used to

853
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:57,720
Speaker 3: increase circulation of blood in dustin and enhance writer's performance,

854
00:40:58,000 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 3: Lance and his team claimed that it was used to

855
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,320
Speaker 3: treat saddle rash, which, as Hincapie recalled, was a false

856
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 3: claim that was quote made to the media and others

857
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 3: during the course of the French investigation. So he's just

858
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 3: telling all this.

859
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 2: This is all about my saddlebag.

860
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,720
Speaker 3: Seriously. There are other teammates who also recalled Lance's commitment

861
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 3: to performance enhanced excellence, such as Levy Leipheimer, who said

862
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 3: in a deposition that he remembered a time when in

863
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 3: two thousand and nine or twenty ten, after Lance came

864
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 3: back to the sport and I quote discussing with Lance

865
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 3: a theoretical new drug being discussed in the media. I

866
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 3: asked him if he knew anything about it. His response was,

867
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 3: you know, I'm always down for it, at which I

868
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 3: understood him to be saying that he was always willing

869
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:38,240
Speaker 3: to try a new doping product.

870
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 2: That's like me with vaccines.

871
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 3: You know, I'm always down for whatever you have back there.

872
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 3: I'll tax me up. The Elizabeth Tutton story tax to

873
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,360
Speaker 3: the max. Okay, So, how does this carnival of organized

874
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 3: cheating and professional cycling finally come to an end?

875
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 2: How does it?

876
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 3: Great question, Lizie So. And also there's the other question

877
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 3: of how did the authorities finally gather enough evidence to

878
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 3: prove Lance was using performance dancing drugs for his record

879
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 3: seven straight victories? Another great question, elizabe Bank it. So

880
00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 3: the story goes after years and years of talk around

881
00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 3: the cycling world and the people who spent time near it,

882
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 3: the story really breaks when finally some journalists put all

883
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 3: the talk together and they write this whole last book

884
00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:19,799
Speaker 3: about the widespread doping scandal and professional cycling. In two

885
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 3: thousand and four, David Walsh and Pierre Balistaire, they published

886
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 3: this book La Confidential, Lay secrets de Lance Armstrong. You

887
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 3: get it, lance Armstrong Confidential. So their book featured a

888
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 3: former insider to Lance Armstrong's world. This woman named Emma O'Reilly.

889
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 3: Now Emma was Lance Armstrong's soner and she claimed that

890
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 3: when Lance tested positive for cordico steroids in ninety nine

891
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,120
Speaker 3: at the Tour de France, his first win, the team

892
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 3: created this backdated prescription for saddle sore treatment. So he

893
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 3: was lying about lesions on his taint to pass a

894
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 3: drug test, essentially. So that's just one of those moments

895
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 3: where you have to know you've crossed over another line.

896
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 3: If like me, you're wondering what's the soneer, I'm glad

897
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,839
Speaker 3: you asked Elizabeth. It's French and it means one who

898
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 3: provides care. So in the cycling world is like a

899
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 3: personal assistant or kind of like a squire for a

900
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 3: knight in armor. Right, they attend to all their needs.

901
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 3: But the Sogner like not only do they totally take

902
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 3: care of a professional cyclist, I mean they prepare their

903
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 3: special foods. They feed them sometimes like hand feed them,

904
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 3: like they're doing other baby. Yeah. They lay out their

905
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 3: little clean spandex fun suits for biking a bird. When

906
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 3: the cyclist is done for the day, they would also

907
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 3: take their sweaty likeer leotards and wash them for them,

908
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 3: and then they would massage their sore bodies and prepare

909
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 3: them for the next day. It's an intimate.

910
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 2: Relationship, Tiger, That's exactly what it is. He's like, I've

911
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 2: got a rash on my bingo.

912
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 3: Wing rubbed me. So when is son Emma O'Reilly says something.

913
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 3: It's coming from a place of trusted intimacy and proximity.

914
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, she's seen a lot, right, basically, she saw.

915
00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 3: It hurt just about everything but the bloodbags so only

916
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 3: because that came later. Yeah, but she did dispose of

917
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 3: syringes for Lance, and she saw his saddle sores, and

918
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 3: she knew if Lance actually needed treatment for his taint

919
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 3: or not. And when he said he did, he did not.

920
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 3: And in fact, according to her, once the business about

921
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 3: the whole backdated prescription thing happened, Lance told her, now, Emma,

922
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 3: you know enough to bring me down. Oh god, So

923
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 3: he knew that. She knew as well.

924
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 2: She's like, I'm gonna hold you to it.

925
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,800
Speaker 3: So this book with its insider accounts, but there was

926
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 3: others too that I'm not gonna get into. But there's

927
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 3: other people who are also like, oh, I've seen him

928
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 3: do stuff. You don't want to know about it.

929
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 4: He was like, I hope you never have to tell

930
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 4: anyone about this little ruin man.

931
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 3: So these shocking allegations start to scandal in the cycling world.

932
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 3: Newspapers start commissioning articles to look into the claims of

933
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 3: widespread drug use and experimental substances being injective and professional

934
00:44:55,680 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 3: athletes and all the cutting edge performance and anting drugs,

935
00:44:58,719 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 3: especially the ones the out Let's in Europe and for instance,

936
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 3: the Sunday Times in the UK. They published sections of

937
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:09,040
Speaker 3: the book and most like the most scandalous allegations about Lance,

938
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 3: and he then sued the newspaper for libel and he won.

939
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 3: They settled out of court la. Oh yeah, but not

940
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 3: only that these lawyers or embarrassars, I guess in the

941
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 3: legal counsel right for the newspaper. They eventually put out

942
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:29,279
Speaker 3: a statement apologizing to Lance. The statement was, and I

943
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 3: quote the Sunday Times is confirmed to mister Armstrong that

944
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:34,359
Speaker 3: it never intended to accuse him of being guilty of

945
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 3: taking any performance in dancing drugs and sincerely apologized for

946
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 3: any such impression.

947
00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 2: Huh.

948
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,240
Speaker 3: So meanwhile, the authors of the book La Confidentially Secrets

949
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 3: Day Lance Armstrong, they doubled down. They're like down with

950
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:51,560
Speaker 3: this raynom fraid to you sus in France. So the reporters,

951
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,720
Speaker 3: David Walsh and Pierre Batista, they published a second book

952
00:45:54,760 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 3: with fresh allegations about Lance Armstrong's cheating the experimental drug use. Yeah,

953
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:01,680
Speaker 3: their first book was still having an effect on the world.

954
00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 3: Because there's this company in Dallas, Lance's hometown. They didn't

955
00:46:05,960 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 3: want to have to pay Lance the five million dollars

956
00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 3: that they owed him, so the company SCA Promotions, had

957
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 3: agreed to pay a bonus if Lance Armstrong won his

958
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 3: sixth Tour de France in a row, which he did

959
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 3: in two thousand and four. However, the president of SCA

960
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 3: Promotions read La Confidential and he used the claims in

961
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 3: the book to get out of paying the five million dollars.

962
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:28,879
Speaker 3: So then they start fighting over his five million dollars

963
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,280
Speaker 3: and he goes to an arbitration panel. Depositions get taken

964
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 3: and recorded. The final ruling was SCA had to pony

965
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 3: up the five mil. Really, but get this, Elizabeth, All

966
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 3: of this was just an initial feint, like a headfake

967
00:46:42,520 --> 00:46:46,240
Speaker 3: by the president of SCA Promotions, this cat named Bob Hammond.

968
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:48,799
Speaker 3: He didn't really care if he won or lost before

969
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 3: the arbitration panel. What he really wanted to do was

970
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 3: to trigger an investigation by some bigger authorities who would

971
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:58,839
Speaker 3: then ultimately investigate discover Lance was indeed doping using all

972
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 3: the performance ancing drug he'd get his hands on, and

973
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 3: then Lance would be banned professional cycling, he would lose

974
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 3: his Tour de France victories, he would lose his records,

975
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:08,920
Speaker 3: and once he was no longer a six time winner

976
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 3: of the Tour de France, then Bob Hammond of SCA

977
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 3: Promotions wouldn't have to pay him the contested five million dollars.

978
00:47:14,840 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 3: He was playing that.

979
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,040
Speaker 2: Long day long that's what I call it, like.

980
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:22,800
Speaker 3: A world class chess masterman in the world of cheapskate chess.

981
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,040
Speaker 3: And it works because soon enough there's this growing body

982
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,360
Speaker 3: of evidence Lance Armstrong is no wonder boy. For instance,

983
00:47:29,440 --> 00:47:34,319
Speaker 3: the depositions from the SCA Promotions arbitration become public such

984
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 3: that the French newspaper Lamonde they publish allegations from Frankie Andrew,

985
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 3: who was Lance Armstrong's teammate, and not only that, he

986
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 3: was the team captain for US Postal Service cycling team

987
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 3: for three years ninety eight, ninety nine and two thousand

988
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,279
Speaker 3: and Andrew he had also raced against Lance in the

989
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 3: ninety six Summer Olympics, so he knew him well, and

990
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 3: he claimed that after the Lance had had brain surgery

991
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 3: back in ninety six, Lance admitted that he'd taken performance

992
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 3: in handsOn rug surgery. Yeah, so according to Andrew, the

993
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:09,280
Speaker 3: captain of Lance's cycling team, he said, and I quote,

994
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:12,200
Speaker 3: the doctor asked him a few questions, nothing, and then

995
00:48:12,239 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 3: one of the questions he asked was have you ever

996
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,920
Speaker 3: used any performance enhancing drugs? And Lance said yes. And

997
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,879
Speaker 3: the doctor asked, okay, what are they? And Lance said

998
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 3: human growth hormone, cortozon, EPO, steroids, testosterone, So boom. Now

999
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 3: Lance has a real problem. People keep saying that the

1000
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 3: seven time winner of the Tour de France is a

1001
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:35,720
Speaker 3: star attraction and the dope show. And it's not just people,

1002
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,759
Speaker 3: it's the people closest to him, it's his suner, it's

1003
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 3: the team captain, his teammates. So in two thousand and five,

1004
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 3: another book is published about the doping allegations against Lance Armstrong.

1005
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 3: It's this guy, an author named Dan Coyle, and he

1006
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 3: writes the book with the title and I'm gonna need

1007
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 3: a breath for this Lance Armstrong's War, one man's battle

1008
00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 3: against fate, fame, love, death, scandal, and a few other

1009
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 3: rivals on the road to the Tour de France.

1010
00:49:02,280 --> 00:49:04,000
Speaker 2: Oh, I feel like I could get cut down.

1011
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 3: Right, Like that is what you call it?

1012
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 2: Title right, call it lamp in thermal lambs.

1013
00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 3: In his book. As he explained to MPR in two

1014
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 3: thousand and five, the allegations against Lance were still not

1015
00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:19,840
Speaker 3: quite conclusive. So however, Coyle's big new reveal was that

1016
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 3: the French authorities who sanctioned professional cyclists for the Tour

1017
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 3: de France, they went back to an old urine sample

1018
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 3: from ninety nine, and they tested it with the new

1019
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,560
Speaker 3: latest testing that they had in two thousand and five,

1020
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 3: and wouldn't you know it, Elizabeth Lance's urine sample tested

1021
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 3: positive for EPO and this was curious because EPO was

1022
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 3: never tested four back in ninety nine.

1023
00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 2: Wait, so they keep all the far back to the urine.

1024
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 2: It has to work in that warehouse, obtain.

1025
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,320
Speaker 3: The samples their electricity bills.

1026
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, like all climate control goes back to the sixties. One.

1027
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,200
Speaker 3: That's a good point because there were questions about their paperwork.

1028
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:58,520
Speaker 3: Was this even his urine sample? Can you prove this? Yeah,

1029
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 3: because you know, like the chain of custody right.

1030
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:02,439
Speaker 2: So through to the poison trait.

1031
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 3: So Lance Armstrong posted on his website that this was

1032
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:09,280
Speaker 3: a witch hunt and that this was quote tabloid journalism.

1033
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,560
Speaker 3: This is because the term fake news did not exist yet.

1034
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 3: Otherwise I'm sure he would have just said that all

1035
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:17,839
Speaker 3: about it, because he also said, in no uncertain terms,

1036
00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 3: I will simply restate what I've said many times. I

1037
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 3: have never taken performance enhancing drugs. So he's kind of

1038
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,320
Speaker 3: like a mixture of like Clinton and Trump at this

1039
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 3: point where he's like, I have never had sexual relations

1040
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 3: with that woman. It's fake news. So Lance didn't denies it. Right.

1041
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:38,800
Speaker 3: This makes it a nationalistic question of belief because Europeans, French,

1042
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 3: the Italians, the British, they tended to believe the allegations

1043
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 3: were true. But not over here in America. As the

1044
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 3: author Coyle told NPR in two thousand and five, he

1045
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 3: cited this recent poll that seventy two percent of Americans

1046
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,359
Speaker 3: believed Lancet Ormstrong was innocent of these allegations against him

1047
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 3: by Europeans.

1048
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:55,719
Speaker 2: Good gun.

1049
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 3: So at this point people start calling for more tests,

1050
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 3: new fresh tests, more facts to settle things, which means

1051
00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 3: more investigations, bigger, more public investigations. Enter the World Anti

1052
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 3: Doping Agency and the International Olympic Committee. They said, test

1053
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 3: is but in more polite terms, So do to this.

1054
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 3: To this building pressure, the Union cyclist Internacionale aka the UCI,

1055
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 3: which is the international governing body for cycling, they launch

1056
00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 3: an investigation under pressure from the IOC and the WADA,

1057
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 3: World Anti Doping Agency. So get this, Elizabeth. The investigators

1058
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 3: for the UCI, they determined that the charges against Lance

1059
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 3: should be dropped due to poor handling of his urine samples,

1060
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:42,320
Speaker 3: improper labeling and testing, et cetera. The governing body decides

1061
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,200
Speaker 3: to look the other way when it comes to their

1062
00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 3: biggest star in cycling history. Oh yeah, So instead, the

1063
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 3: International Olympics Committee, their ethics commission, they publicly censured the

1064
00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 3: president of the World Anti Doping Agency, this man named

1065
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:59,920
Speaker 3: Dick Pound. They punished him for leveling the allegations of

1066
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 3: wrongdoing against Lance. He's right, but they punish him. Take that,

1067
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:07,280
Speaker 3: Dick Pound. So this was the end of two thousand

1068
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 3: and five. Now this is where fate with a capital

1069
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 3: left gets kind of funny because the very next year,

1070
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 3: two thousand and six, Lance is retired. It's the first

1071
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 3: Tour de France without Lance, and so his former teammate,

1072
00:52:18,600 --> 00:52:22,120
Speaker 3: the cyclist Floyd Landis, decides to cheat and use epodes

1073
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 3: like everybody's doing it right, And I mean, can you

1074
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 3: blame him? I mean, Lance has just gotten away from

1075
00:52:27,640 --> 00:52:30,919
Speaker 3: watching the governing body is clearly sweeping it under the rug.

1076
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:33,919
Speaker 3: So floyd Landis he goes and he's he's doing great.

1077
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 3: He wins the seventeenth stage of the two thousand and

1078
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 3: six Tour de France and then oh no, his urine

1079
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 3: tests positive for synthetic testosterone, so he has to leave

1080
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 3: the race, and this launches a series of investigations and

1081
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:51,400
Speaker 3: denials and counter accusations and even some criminal computer hacking

1082
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:54,240
Speaker 3: by Floyd Landis. We won't get into all that because

1083
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 3: it ain't his story. But finally, in twenty ten, Landis

1084
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:01,320
Speaker 3: confesses in a bunch of emails to his sponsors and

1085
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 3: of the cycling authorities that it's all true. He and

1086
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:06,800
Speaker 3: Lance and many other cyclists had all been doping and

1087
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,040
Speaker 3: taking synthetic testosterone, experimental drugs.

1088
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 2: You name it, right.

1089
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 3: Then Floyd Landis turns around and filed his own lawsuit

1090
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:19,239
Speaker 3: against Lance, citing the False Claims Act, which I didn't

1091
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:21,919
Speaker 3: know about this, but it's a wild move because he's

1092
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 3: claiming that, as a taxpayer in the United States, his

1093
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 3: fellow citizen has wilfully defrauded the federal government and he's

1094
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:29,800
Speaker 3: suing on behalf of the government.

1095
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 2: Wow. Right, that's some legal maneuvering totally.

1096
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:35,759
Speaker 3: So the Wall Street Journal is all over this one.

1097
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 3: The newspaper reports on the originally sealed lawsuit in which

1098
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 3: Floyd Landis sued Lance Armstrong for defrauding the US Postal Service,

1099
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,439
Speaker 3: their former sponsor yes, right.

1100
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:48,080
Speaker 2: So shouldn't cross the postal service?

1101
00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:50,879
Speaker 3: You know this, Elizabeth. He basically accused Lance of mail

1102
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:53,719
Speaker 3: fraud and you know what that means. We know he's

1103
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 3: in for it now, so they're gonna get you from

1104
00:53:56,160 --> 00:53:59,320
Speaker 3: mail fraud. And the FEDS did indeed come after Lance,

1105
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 3: So the Just Department now launches their own investigation, like,

1106
00:54:02,680 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 3: get out of the way, cyclists, we're on this, but

1107
00:54:05,719 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 3: not only them, it's also the Food and Drug Administration

1108
00:54:08,239 --> 00:54:11,319
Speaker 3: they get in because of all the experimental drugs Lance

1109
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:12,759
Speaker 3: is allegedly taking and.

1110
00:54:12,960 --> 00:54:16,280
Speaker 2: Doctor Ferrari stargling with samples exactly.

1111
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 3: At this point, Lance rightly begins to panic because the

1112
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 3: Justice Department was not making millions and billions off of Lance, so,

1113
00:54:23,719 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 3: unlike the governing body of professional cycling, the Feds were

1114
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 3: unlikely to turn their head or sweep anything under a rug,

1115
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:33,000
Speaker 3: especially when he's cheating and taking their money. So his

1116
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:36,640
Speaker 3: teammate George Hincapee remembers running into Lance at the twenty

1117
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,799
Speaker 3: ten Tour de France and his federal investigation came up, like, hey,

1118
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 3: how's that going. Yeah, So Hinkupe told Lance that the

1119
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 3: FEDS had approached him and wanted him to tell all

1120
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:49,359
Speaker 3: he knew, which would be bad for Lance. It would

1121
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:52,520
Speaker 3: be bad for both of them. As hink Apee remembers it, quote,

1122
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 3: Lance said that maybe I should stay in Europe a

1123
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 3: little longer. I understood by this that he wanted me

1124
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:00,400
Speaker 3: to stay off the government's radar and was asking me

1125
00:55:00,480 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 3: to avoid testifying as long as I could. Still exactly,

1126
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:06,520
Speaker 3: I'll pay for I got to you to nice, nice

1127
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 3: yetto so. His other teammate, Levy Lee Pimer, was also

1128
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 3: subpoenaed to appear before the grand jury for testimony, and

1129
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,439
Speaker 3: he did appear, and he didn't lie. He told the truth,

1130
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 3: the whole truth of nothing but the truth. And then,

1131
00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 3: wouldn't you know it, Just after he testified before the

1132
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 3: grand jury, he went to dinner with Lance and he

1133
00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:28,560
Speaker 3: ended up sitting next to him. At this point, Lance Elizabeth,

1134
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 3: he basically turns into like Tupac as Bishop and Juice,

1135
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 3: because when he shows up, you're like, oh, everything's about

1136
00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:38,840
Speaker 3: to get real intense. So, as Levi lap Peimer recalls it,

1137
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,279
Speaker 3: Lance was very cold towards me, and I figured that

1138
00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 3: he had learned of my grand jury testimony during the

1139
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:45,840
Speaker 3: course of that dinner. Although he did not speak to me.

1140
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 3: Lance sent a text to my wife Odessa that said run,

1141
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 3: don't walk. What Yes? And it wasn't like Lance was

1142
00:55:53,000 --> 00:55:56,800
Speaker 3: texting his wife often. He never texted her, not for years.

1143
00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:58,640
Speaker 3: He just happened to still have her number. So when

1144
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:02,839
Speaker 3: she gets this text out of the she felt appropriately threatened. Yeah,

1145
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 3: at this point, Lance can't stop what's coming. He's gonna try, though,

1146
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 3: So there were too many people who knew his secrets.

1147
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:11,040
Speaker 3: There were his teammates, people who knew the truth about

1148
00:56:11,080 --> 00:56:13,479
Speaker 3: his saddle sores, people who'd loaned him a coat hanger

1149
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:15,920
Speaker 3: for a blood bag, people who had taken some thermost

1150
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:17,000
Speaker 3: chilled EPO from him.

1151
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:17,959
Speaker 2: All right, people.

1152
00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 3: The federal investigation it last for two years, and the

1153
00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 3: guy running it was this guy named Jeff Novitzky, who'd

1154
00:56:23,880 --> 00:56:27,840
Speaker 3: already had success investigating Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens and

1155
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 3: their performance enhancing drug use in baseball and why they're

1156
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 3: not in the Hall of Fame. And then would you

1157
00:56:34,680 --> 00:56:38,000
Speaker 3: believe it? Elizabeth? In February twenty twelve, the Feds dropped

1158
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 3: their investigation to make matters even more hanky. The Department

1159
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:45,160
Speaker 3: of Justice offered no explanation for their choice to drop

1160
00:56:45,200 --> 00:56:48,320
Speaker 3: the investigation and to drop any related charges. When the

1161
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:51,080
Speaker 3: press went to Novitzky and said, hey man, what happened,

1162
00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:52,760
Speaker 3: He's like, no comment, no comments.

1163
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 2: So this is one in those run, don't walk, because.

1164
00:56:56,440 --> 00:56:58,520
Speaker 3: They'd already taken out two the biggest stars in baseball.

1165
00:56:59,280 --> 00:57:01,439
Speaker 3: Cycling was not a big sport in America. But they're

1166
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:03,359
Speaker 3: like the US Postal Service, we don't need this kind

1167
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:04,440
Speaker 3: of I don't know what happened.

1168
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,839
Speaker 2: They were all wearing live strong bracelets from the embarrassed.

1169
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:11,400
Speaker 3: They pulled their sleeves hiding so inter Now, the US

1170
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:14,520
Speaker 3: Anti Doping Agency, right, which is not related to the

1171
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 3: FEDS at all. The us ADA is a quote nonprofit,

1172
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:20,760
Speaker 3: non governmental five oh one C three organization and the

1173
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 3: national anti doping organization for the United States, so similar

1174
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,280
Speaker 3: to the World Anti Doping Agency, just us so. In

1175
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 3: June of twenty twelve, after the FEDS dropped their investigation,

1176
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 3: they announced that they're launching their own investigation, and then

1177
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:38,640
Speaker 3: they went and deposed his former teammates George Incapee and

1178
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 3: Levi Leipheimer, which is what I've been quoting from. Is

1179
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 3: this anyway? When Lance hears that Levi had just testified

1180
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:49,360
Speaker 3: before the us ADA, Lance texted Levi Leipheimer's wife again.

1181
00:57:49,480 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 3: He's like, he, Odessa, you up? Is not that fun?

1182
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:55,680
Speaker 3: This time he asked are you in California? Oh? This

1183
00:57:55,840 --> 00:57:58,680
Speaker 3: was rather terrifying for her because she was in California. Yeah,

1184
00:57:58,680 --> 00:58:01,080
Speaker 3: she was home alone while her her husband was traveling

1185
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 3: overseas for cycling. As he put it, the text made

1186
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 3: her feel very vulnerable and there was no legitimate reason

1187
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 3: for Lance to communicate with Odessa. Meanwhile, in retaliation for

1188
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 3: the investigation, Lance sued the us ADA and demanded a

1189
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 3: court to stop them from testing and stop their investigation

1190
00:58:20,000 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 3: into him. Judge ruled against him and the investigation was

1191
00:58:23,120 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 3: allowed to proceed. So this is his first loss. Wait,

1192
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 3: the USADA publicly announces that unless Lance cooperates with their investigation,

1193
00:58:30,480 --> 00:58:32,480
Speaker 3: he would be banned from cycling and he'd be stripped

1194
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:36,080
Speaker 3: of his record seven straight Tour de France's victories. In response,

1195
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:40,439
Speaker 3: Lance accused the USADA of quote an unconstitutional witch hunt.

1196
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 2: A witch hunt, right.

1197
00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 3: So in October of that same year, the USADA they

1198
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 3: published their findings in a two hundred page report, another

1199
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:54,480
Speaker 3: one thousand pages of evidence like you can see exhibiting

1200
00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:56,320
Speaker 3: exhibit we needed to come up with new letters.

1201
00:58:56,440 --> 00:58:56,960
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

1202
00:58:57,160 --> 00:59:00,400
Speaker 3: Yes. So in the end, the US Eightya, they came

1203
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 3: right out and they called Lance Armstrong an international drug

1204
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:06,440
Speaker 3: trafficker and a blood doping cheater. Whoa, yeah, they had

1205
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 3: the receipts, though, what are you gonna do? Because and

1206
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 3: then they also they knew all about doctor Ferrari. They

1207
00:59:11,200 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 3: knew that Lance had given doctor Ferrari more than a

1208
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:17,120
Speaker 3: million dollars over the year. They had the receipts, and

1209
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 3: so Lance insisted he was innocent of all charges against him,

1210
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:25,240
Speaker 3: despite the now overwhelming evidence against him. Didn't matter. Lance

1211
00:59:25,360 --> 00:59:28,960
Speaker 3: was summarily banned from international cycling. He was also stripped

1212
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 3: of all of his titles and his victories. Lance swore

1213
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 3: to take it up with the UCI, the governing body

1214
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:37,000
Speaker 3: of international cycling. You're just the US. I'm gonna go

1215
00:59:37,040 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 3: to the top. Right That same month, though, Lance resigned

1216
00:59:40,040 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 3: from his charity, Lance Armstrong Foundation, and they were so

1217
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,440
Speaker 3: embarrassed they changed their name to Live Strong so that

1218
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 3: no one would associate them with Lance Armstrong. Yeah. The

1219
00:59:48,880 --> 00:59:51,280
Speaker 3: Lance at this point also lost all of his sponsors.

1220
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 3: So hours after he resigned from his charity, people were

1221
00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:56,800
Speaker 3: like Okay, we see what's going on. Nike dropped him,

1222
00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:01,560
Speaker 3: Anheuser Busch dropped him, Radio Shack dropped him, Oakley twenty

1223
01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 3: four Hour Fitness. The list went on and on. He

1224
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:07,720
Speaker 3: lost millions upon millions in one day. Wow, Elizabeth. It

1225
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,040
Speaker 3: got so bad that Lance was stripped of the key

1226
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 3: to the city of Adelaide in Australia.

1227
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:12,320
Speaker 4: No.

1228
01:00:12,880 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 2: I love that they got in on it. Good for them.

1229
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 3: Not only that. PBS is like, let us get a

1230
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:20,440
Speaker 3: kick in too. So there was an episode of Arthur,

1231
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:23,440
Speaker 3: the children's show that he was an animated character. They

1232
01:00:23,480 --> 01:00:27,440
Speaker 3: removed the episodes beautiful, I love it all during the

1233
01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 3: month of October twenty twelve. Then came November. Sports Illustrated

1234
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 3: had they decided to name him the Anti Sportsman of

1235
01:00:34,320 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 3: the Year because they have an annual sports sportsman in

1236
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:39,960
Speaker 3: the air. He's the anti sportsman. Lance Armstrong's name was

1237
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 3: now mud. He was a pariah. The hero had fallen

1238
01:00:42,520 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 3: from grace. The haters emerged to stop on his legend.

1239
01:00:46,040 --> 01:00:48,959
Speaker 3: Then the FEDS, the US Justice Department, came back around

1240
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 3: and were like, hey, remember that defrauding of the postal service.

1241
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:55,120
Speaker 3: We're gonna need our money back. So that's how January

1242
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 3: twenty thirteen starts. For him. To get some mercy, maybe

1243
01:00:58,560 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 3: like get the Feds off his back, or get this

1244
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:03,280
Speaker 3: new federal lawsuit to be killed, Lance turned to the

1245
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 3: one person strong enough to scare off the US Department

1246
01:01:06,680 --> 01:01:11,640
Speaker 3: of Justice. He turned to Oprah. Oh, Oprah, So Lance

1247
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:14,240
Speaker 3: goes on her show, and he tells his sad, sob

1248
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 3: story of cheating and defrauding the postal service and about

1249
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 3: all the experimental drugs, the synthetic testosterone, the blood bags

1250
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 3: on coat hangers. Lance said his quote mythic perfect story

1251
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 3: was quote one big lie. Oprah, ate it up right.

1252
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 3: Oprah asked, did you ever take banned substances to enhance

1253
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 3: your cycling performance? Lance answered yes. This was the first

1254
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:39,480
Speaker 3: time Lance publicly admitted he'd use performance enhancing substances. Yeah.

1255
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:42,960
Speaker 3: When Oprah asked him about EPO, he said, yes, blood

1256
01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:48,800
Speaker 3: doping another, yes, human growth hormone, yes, testosterone yes. Did

1257
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 3: you use blood doping to win the Tour de France

1258
01:01:52,680 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 3: in all seven victories? Also? We so? He yeah, unmasked now.

1259
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 3: Oprah asked if it was the testimony of George Hinkapee

1260
01:02:01,880 --> 01:02:04,680
Speaker 3: that sealed his fate and Lance told Oprah, my fate

1261
01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:07,000
Speaker 3: was sealed by George. If George didn't say it, then

1262
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:10,000
Speaker 3: people would say, I'm sticking with Lance. George is the

1263
01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 3: most credible voice in all of this. We're still great friends.

1264
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:16,800
Speaker 3: I don't fault George. George knows the story better than anybody. Now.

1265
01:02:17,040 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 3: I find that fascinating because it all came down to

1266
01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:23,000
Speaker 3: one person, All those hundreds of millions of dollars at risk,

1267
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:25,200
Speaker 3: all those powerful figures willing to look the other way,

1268
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:28,440
Speaker 3: all those folks who were forced to apologize forever alleging

1269
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 3: that Lance had cheated, and it all comes crashing down

1270
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:35,960
Speaker 3: when one person, one teammate, comes clean. And George gained

1271
01:02:36,080 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 3: nothing by telling the truth. He wasn't trying to get

1272
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 3: out of trouble. He just told the truth, and as

1273
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:44,959
Speaker 3: a result, the whole machine grinds to a painful, costly halt.

1274
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 2: It's a painful, costly right.

1275
01:02:47,440 --> 01:02:50,040
Speaker 3: But the Department of Justice did not drop the charges.

1276
01:02:50,120 --> 01:02:54,160
Speaker 3: They're like, we don't watch Oprah. They were like about

1277
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 3: that money you owe us? And Lance settled then with

1278
01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 3: them for five million dollars that he paid against the

1279
01:03:01,360 --> 01:03:05,320
Speaker 3: thirty one million dollars he'd been paid by US Postal Service.

1280
01:03:05,120 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 2: Now thirty one million.

1281
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:08,080
Speaker 3: There was one other thing I found fascinating. I should

1282
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:11,000
Speaker 3: bring this up to. Yeah, twenty fifteen, the BBC asked

1283
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 3: Lance about his fall from grace and he said that

1284
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:16,520
Speaker 3: if it was nineteen ninety five right now he was

1285
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 3: just starting out, quote, he would probably do it again.

1286
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 2: Wow, because he knows he couldn't otherwise.

1287
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 3: I couldn't get it. I was like, was it just

1288
01:03:25,200 --> 01:03:27,120
Speaker 3: because like you got the taste of the seven victories,

1289
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:30,480
Speaker 3: you got that window of basically seven years or however

1290
01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 3: you want to count it, like eight nine years of glory.

1291
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 3: So what's a ridiculous takeaway here? Elizabeth?

1292
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:39,160
Speaker 2: You know what It's supposed to be a pure thing,

1293
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 2: cycling m hm, And a lot of things are supposed

1294
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 2: to be pure, but they're not. But it's this idea

1295
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:46,480
Speaker 2: that he would have done it all over again is

1296
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:49,200
Speaker 2: really disappointing. But I guess he knows that he's not

1297
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:50,400
Speaker 2: as great as he thought he was.

1298
01:03:50,480 --> 01:03:53,880
Speaker 3: He also knows he's a man. I'm willing to cheat

1299
01:03:53,960 --> 01:03:55,320
Speaker 3: for the screens and the applause.

1300
01:03:55,720 --> 01:04:00,640
Speaker 2: What about you? What's your takeaway away? Is?

1301
01:04:00,840 --> 01:04:01,040
Speaker 4: Is that?

1302
01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 3: And I don't mean to make this about me. But

1303
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:06,960
Speaker 3: I'm just making it more about instinct. My instinct was

1304
01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 3: I never liked him. I always thought he was a liar.

1305
01:04:09,800 --> 01:04:11,680
Speaker 3: I always thought he was a cheater. I don't know

1306
01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:14,240
Speaker 3: why I didn't have reason to think that. I wasn't

1307
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:16,640
Speaker 3: around the cycling world in nineteen ninety nine, I could

1308
01:04:16,760 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 3: just tell yeah, and almost I would say ninety nine

1309
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:22,680
Speaker 3: times out of one hundred, when I have a feeling

1310
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 3: about a person, I'm right, and I've just learned that

1311
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:28,320
Speaker 3: I need to wait for evidence. I'm not going to

1312
01:04:28,360 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 3: go around telling other people like what I think. But

1313
01:04:30,680 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 3: if I have the feeling that a person is bs,

1314
01:04:33,360 --> 01:04:35,520
Speaker 3: if they are, like, you know, not up to snuff,

1315
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:38,760
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna trust it entirely. Because looking back now

1316
01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:41,440
Speaker 3: over the numerous celebrities and even personal like you know,

1317
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 3: relationships I have, I'm very rarely wrong about that feeling.

1318
01:04:45,080 --> 01:04:47,960
Speaker 3: I'm like, nah, that dudes ain't right. I don't know

1319
01:04:48,040 --> 01:04:49,320
Speaker 3: what it is. I don't know if it's just like

1320
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:52,080
Speaker 3: some like old southern boy thing of like that dog

1321
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:54,680
Speaker 3: don't hunt. But I just do like I knew. And

1322
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:57,800
Speaker 3: that's why we had the lass, because I wanted to

1323
01:04:57,880 --> 01:04:59,680
Speaker 3: mock him even when he was at the zenith of

1324
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 3: his right. So my dick is takeaway here is listen

1325
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 3: to the little hateration voice inside of you. So true,

1326
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:08,080
Speaker 3: because it's probably right, so true. So you in the

1327
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:10,919
Speaker 3: mood for talkback, we can let this one ride away.

1328
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 2: I am always in the mood for a talkback.

1329
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 3: Oh, oh my god, I love get.

1330
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 5: Hi, Elizabeth Hiseron, It's Keit, your favorite ridiculous ursuitmaker. Never

1331
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 5: thought I'd have a personal ridiculous crime. But Thanksgiving night,

1332
01:05:33,720 --> 01:05:37,360
Speaker 5: my stepdad's TCG store got broken into and they stole

1333
01:05:37,520 --> 01:05:41,040
Speaker 5: thirty thousand plus dollars of Pokemon and magic card. And

1334
01:05:41,160 --> 01:05:44,040
Speaker 5: then later that week another local store get broken into,

1335
01:05:44,320 --> 01:05:47,280
Speaker 5: and now the local news is calling him the Pokemon bandit.

1336
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:49,920
Speaker 5: So I really hope they catch him so you can

1337
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:51,840
Speaker 5: cover it, because I feel like it's right up your

1338
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:53,640
Speaker 5: alley anyways, Love you.

1339
01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 3: We love you. I'm so sorry.

1340
01:05:55,960 --> 01:05:58,240
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I want to hunt this person down.

1341
01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:01,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I want to mock him derisively. Yes, that's horrible.

1342
01:06:01,520 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry to hear that.

1343
01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 3: He's I'm not a fan of him, like boo that,

1344
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:09,000
Speaker 3: but hey, I'm glad to hear from you. I hope

1345
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:10,560
Speaker 3: all is well. I hope the first kitts are going

1346
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:13,800
Speaker 3: well and you're keeping that thimble on your exactly exactly,

1347
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 3: so Elizabeth, Yeah, do you know where you can find

1348
01:06:17,080 --> 01:06:21,640
Speaker 3: us online at Ridiculous Crime on social media? Yes, exactly.

1349
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 3: You go to blue Sky, Twitter or Instagram to forget Twitter,

1350
01:06:25,160 --> 01:06:27,280
Speaker 3: you know, look around you can find us now. We

1351
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:31,320
Speaker 3: do also have our account Ridiculous Crime pod pod on YouTube.

1352
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:33,640
Speaker 3: That's worth a listen and if you like taking your

1353
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:37,280
Speaker 3: podcast there. We also have our website ridiculous Crime dot com.

1354
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 3: No podcasts there, but plenty of merch merch out the

1355
01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:43,240
Speaker 3: wazoo and then also a bunch of fun artwork for you.

1356
01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:47,080
Speaker 3: It is been nominated for the Ryan Heisker Boat and

1357
01:06:47,160 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 3: Best Ale of the Year.

1358
01:06:48,800 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 2: You're kidding.

1359
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:50,720
Speaker 3: I don't know if they know it's a website, but

1360
01:06:50,760 --> 01:06:54,200
Speaker 3: whatever you know. Now, we do love your talkbacks obviously,

1361
01:06:54,320 --> 01:06:56,120
Speaker 3: so please go to your heart app download it, leave

1362
01:06:56,160 --> 01:06:59,040
Speaker 3: a talkback and maybe you'll hear your voice here. We'd

1363
01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:01,280
Speaker 3: love to hear it. Also emails if you want to

1364
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:04,440
Speaker 3: Ridiculous Crime at gmail dot com. Thanks for listening and

1365
01:07:04,520 --> 01:07:12,600
Speaker 3: we will catch you next crime. Ridiculous Crime is hosted

1366
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:15,880
Speaker 3: by Elizabeth Dutton and Zaren Burnette, produced and edited by

1367
01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:20,080
Speaker 3: our own doctor Ferrari Mister Dave Kustin and starring Annalys

1368
01:07:20,200 --> 01:07:24,200
Speaker 3: Rutger as Judith. Research is by George Hankape's fan club,

1369
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:27,280
Speaker 3: Marissa Brown and Jabbari Davis. Our theme song is by

1370
01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:30,520
Speaker 3: our house band, blood Bag and the Coat Haangers aka

1371
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:33,880
Speaker 3: Thomas Lee and Travis Dutton. The hosts wardrobe provided by

1372
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:37,880
Speaker 3: Botany five hundred, guest Haarn, makeup by Sparkleshot and Mister Andre.

1373
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:42,280
Speaker 3: Executive producers are the former co directors of the Livestrong Foundation,

1374
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:44,440
Speaker 3: Ben Bolden and Nolan Brown.

1375
01:07:51,520 --> 01:07:55,240
Speaker 2: CUI Say It One More Time Crime.

1376
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:59,680
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Crime is a production of iHeartRadio four More Podcasts.

1377
01:07:59,760 --> 01:08:02,960
Speaker 1: My heart Radio visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1378
01:08:03,000 --> 01:08:04,720
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.