WEBVTT - Holding it Together 0:00:01.840 --> 0:00:05.040 Wind Down with Jenne Kramer and Michael Coughlin and I'm 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:09.040 her radio podcast excited for our guests today because we 0:00:09.160 --> 0:00:14.560 have their book is Everybody Fights? Yeah, so why not 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:18.239 get better at it? But it's interesting. It's just yeah, 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:23.639 it's an overall interesting topic because I had posted that 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:27.600 thing on social media kind of like talking about you 0:00:27.640 --> 0:00:29.640 know how it can be hard at times and fights 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:33.280 happen and they stink, but you know, I sometimes take 0:00:33.479 --> 0:00:38.880 photos to remember that even though in the that moment 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:42.680 it feels like the end of the world, it's not 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:47.280 really like once you get out of it. Um. But 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:50.440 it's interesting because so many people have them to me 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:56.319 and said, like if you're so unhappy, like why like 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.160 why stay in your relationship? And I'm like, it has 0:00:59.200 --> 0:01:03.360 nothing to do with an happiness, Like I may look 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:07.160 unhappy at times, like you know, because maybe we're fighting 0:01:07.280 --> 0:01:11.600 or but it's not a general unhappiness general unhappiness. Does 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:16.000 that make sense? Like I think if it's every day 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:18.039 and more times than not than yeah, Like I think 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:20.480 you need to look in, you need to look inside 0:01:20.480 --> 0:01:22.720 and be like, am I really happy? Like is this 0:01:22.800 --> 0:01:26.560 relations serving relationships? Serving me? Am I? My best version 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:31.800 right now, you know, is it is this a constant thing, 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:36.280 but I think so many times, you know, when we 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:39.880 have arguments or disagreements, that it can it can feel 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:42.520 like the end of the world, and it can feel 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:47.080 you know, for for most of just like for me 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:49.160 or you know, it's very like I think it's one 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:52.760 or the other. Um, but I don't think it's a 0:01:55.120 --> 0:01:59.680 like I don't think I'm unhappy, you know, well, like 0:01:59.880 --> 0:02:03.600 I know I'm not unhappy, no, but I mean I 0:02:03.680 --> 0:02:07.160 know no, but I mean, you know, like I've I've 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:09.880 written down because at times like it does feel like 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.959 this is too hard and we fight and this and that, 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:16.680 so you know, you start, I started writing down and 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:19.000 that's been like a helpful tool for me because it's like, okay, 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:21.040 it's not every day. Has it been a little bit 0:02:21.120 --> 0:02:23.920 more consistent lately, Yeah, And I don't like that. But 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:26.720 if that continues on like that for the entire year, 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:29.320 and then that's when you go, okay, like maybe my 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:33.600 maybe I am more times than not unhappy, but that's 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:36.960 not the reality in this moment, Like more times than now, 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:39.919 I'm happy, We're happy, We're good, you know, I think 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:43.239 with Canada in the movie and you know some it 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:46.080 was a little bit more frequent, but and then I 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:48.080 think if that stays that way, then that's when you 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:51.280 have to, yeah, maybe evaluate your relationship. But that's not 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:56.400 But it's also like seasons, like people go through things 0:02:56.720 --> 0:02:58.120 and you have to kind of look at it is 0:02:58.160 --> 0:02:59.920 like is this all the time or is this just 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.200 a few times? Because I think a few times is normal. 0:03:02.280 --> 0:03:04.720 Just like the book, like everyone fights, Like everyone has 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:11.919 fights and disagreements and underlying you know, um resentments or 0:03:12.160 --> 0:03:14.600 like it's just about how to fight better and like 0:03:14.880 --> 0:03:16.160 you know, we talked about in our book, like the 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:18.919 good fights about fighting for each other, not against each other. 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:21.560 But I just like, I don't know. That kind of 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.080 just kind of struck me where because I'm like, like, 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:25.920 if you're so unhappy? I was like, where did I 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:29.880 say I was unhappy? Like I know sometimes like we 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:35.640 may be sad, but it's aren't we all unhappy at times? 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:39.280 It just me, no, everybody is, And I think, you 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:43.480 know there's there's levels of this in our situation, you 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:48.880 know too, right, It's uh for some relationships that don't 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:55.560 have a traumatic history like we do, you know, their 0:03:55.680 --> 0:04:00.600 fights might not carry as much weight because of there 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:03.600 there might not be past triggers and a bigger pain 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:07.400 that comes up underneath of something. So I think I 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:10.040 think that's a big part of it for for our situation, 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:13.200 where you know, small fights can turn into something bigger 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:15.559 because of the things that we've been through in our relationship. 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:18.240 And then I also think it's a personality thing too. 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:23.919 I think some people are just more inclined to, you know, uh, 0:04:24.160 --> 0:04:28.760 have that feeling, not that it's negative or positive, just 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:33.200 some people are just kind of that way. And You're 0:04:33.240 --> 0:04:35.160 You've been more of one of those people to kind 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.839 of be that way of where it just feels like 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:41.920 the way to the world at times. And I think 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.120 that is because of our past, because I'm like, I 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:47.080 don't want to have to like struggle all the time, 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:49.159 you know what I mean, Like I don't want it 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:51.520 to be like this heavy, and it shouldn't be, you know, 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:55.039 but unfortunately with our past, it's like we're way better 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:58.560 than we were for sure, but it's like sometimes just 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:03.120 like you know, I don't want to like be I 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:06.600 don't want this to always feel so heavy when we 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:10.960 just have a simple argument, you know, um, And I 0:05:11.000 --> 0:05:13.080 think that's like you said, it's just our situations a 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.520 little bit, you know, walking through that, and but I mean, 0:05:16.560 --> 0:05:19.000 obviously we're like way better than it used to be. 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:22.280 But I think just the underlying question of it all 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:26.480 is this, you know. I think you can look at 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:29.599 your relationship and no, and I was just talking to 0:05:29.640 --> 0:05:33.479 a girlfriend about this today on a walk. It's you 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:35.599 have to kind of just almost yeah, like righte it 0:05:35.640 --> 0:05:38.480 out and be like because in the moment it feels 0:05:38.720 --> 0:05:42.440 so like I'm so unhappy. Well, yeah, I'm unhappy right 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:45.360 now because either I'm not getting one of my needs 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:47.200 met or you're not getting one of your needs met. 0:05:47.560 --> 0:05:49.560 But that doesn't mean like throw the towel and this 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:54.440 is over and it's terrible that we're fighting. It's like, no, okay, 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:59.720 someone's needs aren't getting met. Let's communicate and grow together 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:02.720 and get stronger. Now. The problem we're unhappiness, I think 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.880 becomes a thing is when there's just no love left 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:11.480 to continue to fight together. I mean that's what I say, Like, 0:06:11.600 --> 0:06:15.520 apathy is the killer. As soon as someone's apathetic and 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:19.720 just doesn't give it anymore, that's when, you know. And 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:22.400 I think it's interesting too, because you know that book, 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:26.720 um that we had been reading and we're going to 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:29.200 get back into now that we're back from Canada. Um 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:32.520 the vertical marriage with David Ann Wilson, that we're going 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:34.240 to try to have them on here in the near future. 0:06:34.920 --> 0:06:36.599 But in that book it says something that you and 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:40.160 I related to where she was talking about there talking 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:44.960 about a situation and how Anne was saying she didn't 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:52.040 feel chosen um and it's the smallest thing, and todave 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:54.679 to the man, he was just like, well, you said 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:57.320 yes to me on our wedding day. That's like enough 0:06:57.360 --> 0:07:00.640 for me, you know. So I know that's kind of 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:02.960 how I feel at times. It's easier for me to 0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:06.480 be optimistic, not only from our past right because on 0:07:06.560 --> 0:07:08.680 the perpetrator, so obviously I just want to think of 0:07:08.680 --> 0:07:11.400 the positive. And then I think too, It's just something 0:07:11.920 --> 0:07:16.600 in me as a man where I'm just like I'm 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:18.880 and and being so reminded to I'm like, I'm committed 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:21.040 to you. I'm committed to our marriage and making it work. 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.239 We're gonna have good days, bad days, good faces, bad phaces, 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:27.200 but I'm in it like I'm in it for life. 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:30.320 And granted, yeah, I mean we have to grow and 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:33.600 fight for each other and do other things in between. 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:39.080 I don't mean to make it sounds simplistic um because 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.800 it's not easy. Simple. It's a simple simple in theory, 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:47.080 but it's not easy. But it's just, you know, I 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:49.680 don't know. People are different handled things, different situations, and 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:53.600 I totally understand, like how at times you feel your 0:07:53.600 --> 0:08:01.040 weight than maybe I do, meaning p because of your personality, 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:05.920 because of the trauma that I've put you through. It 0:08:06.080 --> 0:08:09.680 being easy, it being more understandable for you to have 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:13.360 that mindset of like in this moment, I can't see 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:15.720 the light at the end of the tunnel, Like it's 0:08:15.720 --> 0:08:17.480 harder for you to see that than me, is what 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:20.720 I'm saying, You know what I mean. So I'm sure 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:22.640 a lot of relationships are like that, even if there 0:08:22.680 --> 0:08:24.800 isn't a traumatic thing, just based on their personality, it 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:27.640 might be easier for one or simpler for one to 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:29.280 see the light at the end of the of that 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:33.520 tunnel of that fight than the other person, which I 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:37.400 think is important because if both people are just what's 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.520 the point why I can't do this, then you're just 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:46.320 gonna You're not gonna get anywhere, you know. So, yeah, 0:08:46.320 --> 0:08:50.240 I mean, that's it's a bummer that people would just 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:53.640 I can understand why people would see your posts and 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:57.920 just make up that you're saying you're not happy. Yeah, 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:01.360 because I was like nowhere, I never said anywhere that 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:04.040 I wasn't happy. I said, you know, it's you said 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:08.040 I think I'm happy. No, I said, you know, it's 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:11.600 people fight. No relationship is perfect, even though it looks 0:09:11.600 --> 0:09:15.640 like it on Instagram, you know. And yeah, someone noticed 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:18.120 that we weren't sleeping in the same bed and Canada. 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:21.400 It's like, Okay, this is doesn't mean that we're unhappy. 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:24.400 It's just we have things that, like any other relationship, 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:26.640 that we need to continue to grow and get better 0:09:26.640 --> 0:09:29.280 at and communicate better. And you know, listen to what 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.960 we talked about in our own book, and but there's 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:37.360 nothing that's Yeah, it's just it's like, because everybody does fight, 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.960 and some are just a little heavier and maybe wigh 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:44.760 a little bit deeper. But a fight is a fight, 0:09:45.679 --> 0:09:48.960 and you know, yeah, and my thing is like you 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:51.120 know what I tell you a lot of times when 0:09:52.400 --> 0:09:54.960 we're back on the men, like after a rough patches, 0:09:55.040 --> 0:09:57.040 like there's no one else in this world I'd rather 0:09:57.080 --> 0:10:00.840 go through this within you, right, like go your life together, 0:10:01.400 --> 0:10:03.800 and that's like the end of the day, that's my thing. 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.160 It's like it's gonna be the same if it's with 0:10:07.200 --> 0:10:11.920 somebody else, you know. But so I'd rather just I 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:13.360 would rather do it with you because I love you 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:15.000 and I want to do it with you. Well, And 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:16.880 that's kind of like what my girlfriend never saying, Like 0:10:17.320 --> 0:10:20.280 if the love is still there and two people, like 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:21.800 we even talked about in our book, like two people 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.680 are willing to work and fight at it, like then 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.080 you can continue to grow. But when the love has 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:32.280 gone to that's just that's tough. But yeah, I mean 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:34.240 I think you have to figure out what you want 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:38.079 for yourself and look at it. Because if if I 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:40.160 was unhappy, like I don't want Like I have a 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:43.679 friend who is in a marriage that's not happy. He's 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:47.600 not changing, he's not willing to really change, and it's 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:50.360 like and I look at her, and I'm like, I 0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:53.440 don't want to spend you know, I'm gonna be forty 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:55.120 in the next few years. I don't want to spend 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:59.679 the next forty fighting so hard for this and like 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:07.079 how my unhappy to have my happiness be? Um? In 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:09.640 in doubt, you know, like I I don't want my 0:11:09.720 --> 0:11:12.120 kids to see that, Like I want the next sacrifice 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:14.079 your happiness. Yeah, I don't want to sacrifice it, and 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:16.079 I don't. I'm like, I don't want to if it's 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:22.960 not going in the direction of stronger, healthier, growing, you know, happiness, 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:25.920 Like what's the like then I'm like I agree with 0:11:25.960 --> 0:11:27.760 people that you know, like, then what is the point? 0:11:28.920 --> 0:11:31.280 Because like, I don't want to spend the next forty 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:34.559 miserable and unhappy and being with someone that doesn't want 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:36.680 to change, doesn't want to grow, doesn't want to work 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:39.680 on things. But it's like, that's not what's happening. What's 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.760 happening is we are fighting, and we're learning and we're growing, 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:46.680 and we can still be happy and still have fights. 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:49.280 And I think that's what's so great about you know, 0:11:49.720 --> 0:11:53.280 our book, their book. Everyone fights because there's ways to 0:11:54.559 --> 0:12:02.480 realize that it's okay. Deal with it, listeners and yeah, 0:12:02.480 --> 0:12:09.720 we fight, deal with it. Yeah they know they're subscribed. Um, well, 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:12.520 let's take a break and get Kim and pen On 0:12:12.559 --> 0:12:16.080 here and let's talk everything fights and their book and 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:31.840 how they work through it. I have friends, How are 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:34.200 you guys. I'm Janna and this is my husband Mike. 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:41.000 You are I'm him, and this is Pen. Guys. I'm 0:12:41.040 --> 0:12:44.160 excited to talk to you because last week we talked 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:48.600 about some kind of fights that we were having while 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:52.880 we were uh essentially re quarantining because we were in 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:57.400 Vancouver for six weeks. Um and I remember getting the 0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:59.719 breakdown and being like, oh, yes, I cannot wait to 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:02.000 talk to you because you have a book it's called 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:05.120 Everybody Fights, and you know, someone had asked me It's like, oh, 0:13:05.160 --> 0:13:07.760 I noticed, like Mike wasn't sleeping in the bed, you know, 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:09.559 while a few nights while you were in Canada. And 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:12.920 I'm like, look, it's just sometimes we fight, you know 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:17.200 what I'm like, And that's okay, But want I just 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:19.839 wanted how long have you guys been married for? We've 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:22.439 been married for going to make me do some math here, 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:27.960 uh sixteen sixteen years? He cheated sixteen years and we 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:31.000 believe you. You don't have that whole rule. I don't 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:33.240 go to bed angry. No, we go to bed angry 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:36.480 sometimes because and you know, like people have fomo, I 0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:39.480 have like bombs, like instead of fear of missing out 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:41.719 of a fear of missing sleep. So I'd rather get 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:45.679 to sleep, sleep well, wake up refreshed, and then we 0:13:45.679 --> 0:13:47.720 can hash it out. Wait, but can you just kind 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:49.920 of like dropped a bomb though, Like you just said, 0:13:50.320 --> 0:13:56.240 it's in sixteen years since he cheated, no getting the number? 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:04.280 I was. I whispered to her the numbers exclusive. No, 0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:05.760 I heard it too, and I was like maybe that 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:14.240 I'll just keep on going. I hear everything. Sorry about that, Um, 0:14:14.280 --> 0:14:16.920 but it's it's great as your tag tagline is, why 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:19.320 not get better at it? So? How do you guys 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:26.800 fight better? Um? The start of it is we talk 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:29.880 about the fights. The term that we use in the 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:32.360 book is metic communicating. We take kind of a step 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:34.800 back and we Monday morning quarterback, if you will. We 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:37.600 kind of talk about it after it's over. Um, we're 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:39.320 at the point now where we talk about it while 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.720 it's going on, because there are a lot of things 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:45.280 that happened to your brain and your body during fights 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:48.320 that you can't control, and it causes you to do 0:14:48.440 --> 0:14:52.320 stupid crap all the time. And we've kind of learned 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:56.120 what those things are. And once we see them coming, uh, 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:57.880 we take a little bit of a beat, we de 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:02.080 escalate and we come back when and our you know what, 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:06.200 our nervous system isn't completely haywire well, and I do 0:15:06.320 --> 0:15:09.080 believe you know how to hurt your partner, Like you 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.320 know exactly how you can hurt your person, right, you 0:15:12.360 --> 0:15:16.000 know the very specific ways there achilles healed in which 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:20.080 you can torture them. So don't do it. And we 0:15:20.200 --> 0:15:23.120 know now how to zoom out that talking about the 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:26.680 fight is if you've solved the fight, let's say that, 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:28.640 like you have to come to resolution. But if you 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:31.840 can zoom out, and that's when we recognize, like any 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:33.880 fight that started at ten o'clock at night for me 0:15:33.920 --> 0:15:35.680 because I go to bed early because I wake up 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:38.200 super early, that's not going to end well. So we 0:15:38.280 --> 0:15:40.240 just don't do it. Like so if something comes up 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:42.760 at night, I'm like, you know what, we're going to 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:44.440 work this out tomorrow. If that means he sleeps in 0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:46.600 the guest room, like we do that too, Like we've 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.800 done times. Um, we know that after a couple of 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:53.040 glasses of wine, nothing is going to get solved, So 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:55.320 we don't do that. So now we just don't engage 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:59.280 like we have these like peacetime conversations or wartime conversations. 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:01.840 I mean, I think sometimes we do still engage. We 0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:05.480 just have to we when we once we realize we're engaging, 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:07.400 we're like, Okay, we gotta do this some of the time. 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:11.200 So I mean you talked about sleeping in separate rooms 0:16:11.520 --> 0:16:14.200 on that trip. That happens sometimes, and it's I think 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:21.440 that's better than fighting when you're tired and drunk and hungry, hungry, Yeah, 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:24.320 all the above. How long have you guys been together? 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:26.800 Sixteen years? At what point in your marriage and relationship 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.760 were you like, Okay, we need to start doing this different. 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:33.800 We went to counseling, we started, I think it was 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:37.360 really when we started working together, so about two thousand, 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:40.760 thirteen and fourteen something like that. And I think our 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:43.880 marriage was fine. Our marriage was good. We weren't calling 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:46.960 the divorce lawyer. Um, it was fine, you know what 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:49.400 I mean, but we knew it could have been better. 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.200 And then we kind of like poor gasoline on the fire, 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.480 we started working together. So when you are in each 0:16:56.520 --> 0:17:00.080 other's faces all day, raising kids together, living together, and 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:02.920 trying to be married to each other, it was we 0:17:02.960 --> 0:17:05.640 didn't have boundaries. We like we like work just kind 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:07.600 of steamrolled all the way into the night and in 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:11.040 the morning and then make it worse. I mean, Michael, 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:16.159 I I don't know. Uh, maybe locker room talk was 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:17.879 different when you were in the NFL and it is 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:21.840 when you go home. My job before Kim, I wasn't 0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:23.439 in a locker room. I was in a newsroom. And 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:26.119 I'm telling you it might be more foul and abrasive 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:29.719 than an NFL locker the way that people talk in newsrooms. 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:31.840 And I just thought that was how people talked when 0:17:31.840 --> 0:17:34.359 they work. I had done that for fifteen years and 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:37.040 then I went to work with Kim and she called 0:17:37.040 --> 0:17:38.560 me on it and she's like, you're talking to me 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:42.879 like b I mean, not like I mean. It was 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:43.720 a lot of it was a lot of it was 0:17:43.800 --> 0:17:45.119 kind of stuff I picked up from my dad and 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:46.760 also people in the newsroom, like a lot of passive 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:52.360 aggressiveness and just I'm looking back on myself, I'm not proud, 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:54.719 but that was one of the that was like one 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:57.040 of the early stressors was I talked down to her 0:17:57.119 --> 0:18:00.520 and I talked abrasively to her. And I never knew 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.239 that part of him because as a husband, he was 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:05.159 he was great, Like it was fine, but then that 0:18:06.040 --> 0:18:09.280 kind of that work self displayed. Well, Melanie and I 0:18:09.280 --> 0:18:11.280 talked to each other like that all the time his 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.560 work life, so like we talked to each other that way, 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:16.880 and then that was kind of how it started. Yeah, 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:19.560 I know, I can kind of relate to on that thing, 0:18:19.640 --> 0:18:22.959 because like one of our big fights that we got 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:27.480 into in Canada was he brought up a work idea. 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:32.480 And when we talk work, I'm he's I don't remember 0:18:32.560 --> 0:18:34.440 him as my husband or my friend. I go into 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:36.480 business mode, I go into Chris Jenner. I'm like, well, 0:18:36.480 --> 0:18:37.879 I don't know, like I think, like, you know, we 0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:39.840 should only do this many amounts and like and I 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:42.440 just go and I don't think about feelings. I'm nice, 0:18:42.560 --> 0:18:44.639 but I just like I'm very direct with my like 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:48.680 my words. And he takes it as because he'll get 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:50.400 upset if I say, like, hey, where are you going? 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:52.600 If I don't put like where are you going babe, 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:55.760 like a softer tone or even though I mean no 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:59.160 malicious nous or what are you doing? I'm doing work? 0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:00.879 Well what kind of work? But like he gets so 0:19:01.000 --> 0:19:03.600 like annoyed. So it's like I have to always like 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:06.120 sugarcoat it a little bit. And when I'm talking about work. 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:08.679 It's very hard for me to sugarcoat work. And so 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:10.520 it was something where it's like I have to like 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:14.600 remember in those conversations, like, oh, I'm yes, he's still 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:16.639 my work partner, but he's also my husband. I need 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:20.359 to be a little softer with like my my tone, 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:22.280 I guess, and I have to be like I have 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:25.240 to throw in a baby here, like a baby, a 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:29.359 little baby, little honey. So I feel that, and I 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:33.439 feel like we've had that issue before in in that 0:19:33.680 --> 0:19:36.880 sometimes like a lot of the ideas for silly videos 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:39.880 will come out of my head and then pen does 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:42.240 the magic and goes into the magic song room and 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:44.719 make a song about it or something like that. But 0:19:44.880 --> 0:19:47.760 sometimes I'll say stuff and he's just not listening, and 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:51.439 then when another person says it, it's a brilliant idea, 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:54.680 so it's that same. And then or I'll have an 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:57.480 idea and we call it like duck hunting or whatever, 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:00.960 what a clay pigeon or whatever you like, and just 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.840 shoot it out of the sky. And so I'll have 0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:07.520 I'll have an idea and he'll just do the same thing. 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:09.960 But we had we actually wrote about it in the 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:12.360 book one thing. I put it like this big scary 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:15.280 idea that I wanted to, like we wrote about in 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:18.879 the book. Because I had this big scary idea, I 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:22.760 felt like, we should write a Broadway musical. By the way, 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:24.920 it takes like twenty years to get a musical on Broadway. 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:28.440 It is the most like scariest, weirdest thing ever. Right, 0:20:28.560 --> 0:20:30.159 And so you say that loud, and you say it 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:34.000 to your partner and then so his his his business 0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:36.520 hat goes on right just like you were talking. And 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:39.520 his response was, is that the best use of your time? 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:46.800 And I was like, now, I didn't say that mean now, 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:48.480 I would just be like, I just think there's I 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:51.000 wouldn't say like, because that's that's what I would love 0:20:51.040 --> 0:20:54.160 to say. But I've learned, like, and so I'm better 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:58.560 than pen he learned. And then I didn't handle it 0:20:58.560 --> 0:21:00.560 well because I got out of a moving car and 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:04.520 walked home. Um, and so I didn't handle that well. 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:07.400 But literally, like we took that fight to our counselor 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:09.760 and like we we talked about that way. So we've 0:21:09.800 --> 0:21:11.880 both learned a lot. We learned a lot from counseling, 0:21:11.920 --> 0:21:15.120 We learned a lot from writing this book. So, yeah, 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:18.400 being married, have you ever had something where you're just like, 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:22.040 I just don't know if like I can continue on 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:26.639 this journey where it's just it's it's just too hard, 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:29.600 or it's just there's you just don't cease anything changing 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:31.520 and you feel like you're just like beating your head 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:34.320 up against the wall. Or is that just normal marriage 0:21:34.800 --> 0:21:39.680 feelings and thoughts. I've had those micro feelings, um, And 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:41.480 by that, I mean like, while I'm in the thick 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:44.160 of an argument where I realized that I'm just not 0:21:44.200 --> 0:21:47.000 getting anywhere and we're going in the same space. There's 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:50.080 this sort of grief and hopelessness that comes with that, 0:21:50.800 --> 0:21:53.840 And I'm I feel very lucky to say that it's 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:59.879 never lasted more than a few moments, um, but I 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:03.800 know that that does happen. Yeah, And my my parents 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:08.320 got divorced, and they were they were separated and back 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:10.720 together and separating back together before they got divorced, like 0:22:10.840 --> 0:22:14.600 my entire childhood. So I learned. And one of the 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:17.040 things we we learned about each other's like our fighting 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:21.080