Speaker 1: Wind Down with Jenne Kramer and Michael Coughlin and I'm
Speaker 1: her radio podcast excited for our guests today because we
Speaker 1: have their book is Everybody Fights? Yeah, so why not
Speaker 1: get better at it? But it's interesting. It's just yeah,
Speaker 1: it's an overall interesting topic because I had posted that
Speaker 1: thing on social media kind of like talking about you
Speaker 1: know how it can be hard at times and fights
Speaker 1: happen and they stink, but you know, I sometimes take
Speaker 1: photos to remember that even though in the that moment
Speaker 1: it feels like the end of the world, it's not
Speaker 1: really like once you get out of it. Um. But
Speaker 1: it's interesting because so many people have them to me
Speaker 1: and said, like if you're so unhappy, like why like
Speaker 1: why stay in your relationship? And I'm like, it has
Speaker 1: nothing to do with an happiness, Like I may look
Speaker 1: unhappy at times, like you know, because maybe we're fighting
Speaker 1: or but it's not a general unhappiness general unhappiness. Does
Speaker 1: that make sense? Like I think if it's every day
Speaker 1: and more times than not than yeah, Like I think
Speaker 1: you need to look in, you need to look inside
Speaker 1: and be like, am I really happy? Like is this
Speaker 1: relations serving relationships? Serving me? Am I? My best version
Speaker 1: right now, you know, is it is this a constant thing,
Speaker 1: but I think so many times, you know, when we
Speaker 1: have arguments or disagreements, that it can it can feel
Speaker 1: like the end of the world, and it can feel
Speaker 1: you know, for for most of just like for me
Speaker 1: or you know, it's very like I think it's one
Speaker 1: or the other. Um, but I don't think it's a
Speaker 1: like I don't think I'm unhappy, you know, well, like
Speaker 1: I know I'm not unhappy, no, but I mean I
Speaker 1: know no, but I mean, you know, like I've I've
Speaker 1: written down because at times like it does feel like
Speaker 1: this is too hard and we fight and this and that,
Speaker 1: so you know, you start, I started writing down and
Speaker 1: that's been like a helpful tool for me because it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: it's not every day. Has it been a little bit
Speaker 1: more consistent lately, Yeah, And I don't like that. But
Speaker 1: if that continues on like that for the entire year,
Speaker 1: and then that's when you go, okay, like maybe my
Speaker 1: maybe I am more times than not unhappy, but that's
Speaker 1: not the reality in this moment, Like more times than now,
Speaker 1: I'm happy, We're happy, We're good, you know, I think
Speaker 1: with Canada in the movie and you know some it
Speaker 1: was a little bit more frequent, but and then I
Speaker 1: think if that stays that way, then that's when you
Speaker 1: have to, yeah, maybe evaluate your relationship. But that's not
Speaker 1: But it's also like seasons, like people go through things
Speaker 1: and you have to kind of look at it is
Speaker 1: like is this all the time or is this just
Speaker 1: a few times? Because I think a few times is normal.
Speaker 1: Just like the book, like everyone fights, Like everyone has
Speaker 1: fights and disagreements and underlying you know, um resentments or
Speaker 1: like it's just about how to fight better and like
Speaker 1: you know, we talked about in our book, like the
Speaker 1: good fights about fighting for each other, not against each other.
Speaker 1: But I just like, I don't know. That kind of
Speaker 1: just kind of struck me where because I'm like, like,
Speaker 1: if you're so unhappy? I was like, where did I
Speaker 1: say I was unhappy? Like I know sometimes like we
Speaker 1: may be sad, but it's aren't we all unhappy at times?
Speaker 1: It just me, no, everybody is, And I think, you
Speaker 1: know there's there's levels of this in our situation, you
Speaker 1: know too, right, It's uh for some relationships that don't
Speaker 1: have a traumatic history like we do, you know, their
Speaker 1: fights might not carry as much weight because of there
Speaker 1: there might not be past triggers and a bigger pain
Speaker 1: that comes up underneath of something. So I think I
Speaker 1: think that's a big part of it for for our situation,
Speaker 1: where you know, small fights can turn into something bigger
Speaker 1: because of the things that we've been through in our relationship.
Speaker 1: And then I also think it's a personality thing too.
Speaker 1: I think some people are just more inclined to, you know, uh,
Speaker 1: have that feeling, not that it's negative or positive, just
Speaker 1: some people are just kind of that way. And You're
Speaker 1: You've been more of one of those people to kind
Speaker 1: of be that way of where it just feels like
Speaker 1: the way to the world at times. And I think
Speaker 1: that is because of our past, because I'm like, I
Speaker 1: don't want to have to like struggle all the time,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like I don't want it
Speaker 1: to be like this heavy, and it shouldn't be, you know,
Speaker 1: but unfortunately with our past, it's like we're way better
Speaker 1: than we were for sure, but it's like sometimes just
Speaker 1: like you know, I don't want to like be I
Speaker 1: don't want this to always feel so heavy when we
Speaker 1: just have a simple argument, you know, um, And I
Speaker 1: think that's like you said, it's just our situations a
Speaker 1: little bit, you know, walking through that, and but I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously we're like way better than it used to be.
Speaker 1: But I think just the underlying question of it all
Speaker 1: is this, you know. I think you can look at
Speaker 1: your relationship and no, and I was just talking to
Speaker 1: a girlfriend about this today on a walk. It's you
Speaker 1: have to kind of just almost yeah, like righte it
Speaker 1: out and be like because in the moment it feels
Speaker 1: so like I'm so unhappy. Well, yeah, I'm unhappy right
Speaker 1: now because either I'm not getting one of my needs
Speaker 1: met or you're not getting one of your needs met.
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean like throw the towel and this
Speaker 1: is over and it's terrible that we're fighting. It's like, no, okay,
Speaker 1: someone's needs aren't getting met. Let's communicate and grow together
Speaker 1: and get stronger. Now. The problem we're unhappiness, I think
Speaker 1: becomes a thing is when there's just no love left
Speaker 1: to continue to fight together. I mean that's what I say, Like,
Speaker 1: apathy is the killer. As soon as someone's apathetic and
Speaker 1: just doesn't give it anymore, that's when, you know. And
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting too, because you know that book,
Speaker 1: um that we had been reading and we're going to
Speaker 1: get back into now that we're back from Canada. Um
Speaker 1: the vertical marriage with David Ann Wilson, that we're going
Speaker 1: to try to have them on here in the near future.
Speaker 1: But in that book it says something that you and
Speaker 1: I related to where she was talking about there talking
Speaker 1: about a situation and how Anne was saying she didn't
Speaker 1: feel chosen um and it's the smallest thing, and todave
Speaker 1: to the man, he was just like, well, you said
Speaker 1: yes to me on our wedding day. That's like enough
Speaker 1: for me, you know. So I know that's kind of
Speaker 1: how I feel at times. It's easier for me to
Speaker 1: be optimistic, not only from our past right because on
Speaker 1: the perpetrator, so obviously I just want to think of
Speaker 1: the positive. And then I think too, It's just something
Speaker 1: in me as a man where I'm just like I'm
Speaker 1: and and being so reminded to I'm like, I'm committed
Speaker 1: to you. I'm committed to our marriage and making it work.
Speaker 1: We're gonna have good days, bad days, good faces, bad phaces,
Speaker 1: but I'm in it like I'm in it for life.
Speaker 1: And granted, yeah, I mean we have to grow and
Speaker 1: fight for each other and do other things in between.
Speaker 1: I don't mean to make it sounds simplistic um because
Speaker 1: it's not easy. Simple. It's a simple simple in theory,
Speaker 1: but it's not easy. But it's just, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know. People are different handled things, different situations, and
Speaker 1: I totally understand, like how at times you feel your
Speaker 1: weight than maybe I do, meaning p because of your personality,
Speaker 1: because of the trauma that I've put you through. It
Speaker 1: being easy, it being more understandable for you to have
Speaker 1: that mindset of like in this moment, I can't see
Speaker 1: the light at the end of the tunnel, Like it's
Speaker 1: harder for you to see that than me, is what
Speaker 1: I'm saying, You know what I mean. So I'm sure
Speaker 1: a lot of relationships are like that, even if there
Speaker 1: isn't a traumatic thing, just based on their personality, it
Speaker 1: might be easier for one or simpler for one to
Speaker 1: see the light at the end of the of that
Speaker 1: tunnel of that fight than the other person, which I
Speaker 1: think is important because if both people are just what's
Speaker 1: the point why I can't do this, then you're just
Speaker 1: gonna You're not gonna get anywhere, you know. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's it's a bummer that people would just
Speaker 1: I can understand why people would see your posts and
Speaker 1: just make up that you're saying you're not happy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because I was like nowhere, I never said anywhere that
Speaker 1: I wasn't happy. I said, you know, it's you said
Speaker 1: I think I'm happy. No, I said, you know, it's
Speaker 1: people fight. No relationship is perfect, even though it looks
Speaker 1: like it on Instagram, you know. And yeah, someone noticed
Speaker 1: that we weren't sleeping in the same bed and Canada.
Speaker 1: It's like, Okay, this is doesn't mean that we're unhappy.
Speaker 1: It's just we have things that, like any other relationship,
Speaker 1: that we need to continue to grow and get better
Speaker 1: at and communicate better. And you know, listen to what
Speaker 1: we talked about in our own book, and but there's
Speaker 1: nothing that's Yeah, it's just it's like, because everybody does fight,
Speaker 1: and some are just a little heavier and maybe wigh
Speaker 1: a little bit deeper. But a fight is a fight,
Speaker 1: and you know, yeah, and my thing is like you
Speaker 1: know what I tell you a lot of times when
Speaker 1: we're back on the men, like after a rough patches,
Speaker 1: like there's no one else in this world I'd rather
Speaker 1: go through this within you, right, like go your life together,
Speaker 1: and that's like the end of the day, that's my thing.
Speaker 1: It's like it's gonna be the same if it's with
Speaker 1: somebody else, you know. But so I'd rather just I
Speaker 1: would rather do it with you because I love you
Speaker 1: and I want to do it with you. Well, And
Speaker 1: that's kind of like what my girlfriend never saying, Like
Speaker 1: if the love is still there and two people, like
Speaker 1: we even talked about in our book, like two people
Speaker 1: are willing to work and fight at it, like then
Speaker 1: you can continue to grow. But when the love has
Speaker 1: gone to that's just that's tough. But yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I think you have to figure out what you want
Speaker 1: for yourself and look at it. Because if if I
Speaker 1: was unhappy, like I don't want Like I have a
Speaker 1: friend who is in a marriage that's not happy. He's
Speaker 1: not changing, he's not willing to really change, and it's
Speaker 1: like and I look at her, and I'm like, I
Speaker 1: don't want to spend you know, I'm gonna be forty
Speaker 1: in the next few years. I don't want to spend
Speaker 1: the next forty fighting so hard for this and like
Speaker 1: how my unhappy to have my happiness be? Um? In
Speaker 1: in doubt, you know, like I I don't want my
Speaker 1: kids to see that, Like I want the next sacrifice
Speaker 1: your happiness. Yeah, I don't want to sacrifice it, and
Speaker 1: I don't. I'm like, I don't want to if it's
Speaker 1: not going in the direction of stronger, healthier, growing, you know, happiness,
Speaker 1: Like what's the like then I'm like I agree with
Speaker 1: people that you know, like, then what is the point?
Speaker 1: Because like, I don't want to spend the next forty
Speaker 1: miserable and unhappy and being with someone that doesn't want
Speaker 1: to change, doesn't want to grow, doesn't want to work
Speaker 1: on things. But it's like, that's not what's happening. What's
Speaker 1: happening is we are fighting, and we're learning and we're growing,
Speaker 1: and we can still be happy and still have fights.
Speaker 1: And I think that's what's so great about you know,
Speaker 1: our book, their book. Everyone fights because there's ways to
Speaker 1: realize that it's okay. Deal with it, listeners and yeah,
Speaker 1: we fight, deal with it. Yeah they know they're subscribed. Um, well,
Speaker 1: let's take a break and get Kim and pen On
Speaker 1: here and let's talk everything fights and their book and
Speaker 1: how they work through it. I have friends, How are
Speaker 1: you guys. I'm Janna and this is my husband Mike.
Speaker 1: You are I'm him, and this is Pen. Guys. I'm
Speaker 1: excited to talk to you because last week we talked
Speaker 1: about some kind of fights that we were having while
Speaker 1: we were uh essentially re quarantining because we were in
Speaker 1: Vancouver for six weeks. Um and I remember getting the
Speaker 1: breakdown and being like, oh, yes, I cannot wait to
Speaker 1: talk to you because you have a book it's called
Speaker 1: Everybody Fights, and you know, someone had asked me It's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I noticed, like Mike wasn't sleeping in the bed, you know,
Speaker 1: while a few nights while you were in Canada. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, look, it's just sometimes we fight, you know
Speaker 1: what I'm like, And that's okay, But want I just
Speaker 1: wanted how long have you guys been married for? We've
Speaker 1: been married for going to make me do some math here,
Speaker 1: uh sixteen sixteen years? He cheated sixteen years and we
Speaker 1: believe you. You don't have that whole rule. I don't
Speaker 1: go to bed angry. No, we go to bed angry
Speaker 1: sometimes because and you know, like people have fomo, I
Speaker 1: have like bombs, like instead of fear of missing out
Speaker 1: of a fear of missing sleep. So I'd rather get
Speaker 1: to sleep, sleep well, wake up refreshed, and then we
Speaker 1: can hash it out. Wait, but can you just kind
Speaker 1: of like dropped a bomb though, Like you just said,
Speaker 1: it's in sixteen years since he cheated, no getting the number?
Speaker 1: I was. I whispered to her the numbers exclusive. No,
Speaker 1: I heard it too, and I was like maybe that
Speaker 1: I'll just keep on going. I hear everything. Sorry about that, Um,
Speaker 1: but it's it's great as your tag tagline is, why
Speaker 1: not get better at it? So? How do you guys
Speaker 1: fight better? Um? The start of it is we talk
Speaker 1: about the fights. The term that we use in the
Speaker 1: book is metic communicating. We take kind of a step
Speaker 1: back and we Monday morning quarterback, if you will. We
Speaker 1: kind of talk about it after it's over. Um, we're
Speaker 1: at the point now where we talk about it while
Speaker 1: it's going on, because there are a lot of things
Speaker 1: that happened to your brain and your body during fights
Speaker 1: that you can't control, and it causes you to do
Speaker 1: stupid crap all the time. And we've kind of learned
Speaker 1: what those things are. And once we see them coming, uh,
Speaker 1: we take a little bit of a beat, we de
Speaker 1: escalate and we come back when and our you know what,
Speaker 1: our nervous system isn't completely haywire well, and I do
Speaker 1: believe you know how to hurt your partner, Like you
Speaker 1: know exactly how you can hurt your person, right, you
Speaker 1: know the very specific ways there achilles healed in which
Speaker 1: you can torture them. So don't do it. And we
Speaker 1: know now how to zoom out that talking about the
Speaker 1: fight is if you've solved the fight, let's say that,
Speaker 1: like you have to come to resolution. But if you
Speaker 1: can zoom out, and that's when we recognize, like any
Speaker 1: fight that started at ten o'clock at night for me
Speaker 1: because I go to bed early because I wake up
Speaker 1: super early, that's not going to end well. So we
Speaker 1: just don't do it. Like so if something comes up
Speaker 1: at night, I'm like, you know what, we're going to
Speaker 1: work this out tomorrow. If that means he sleeps in
Speaker 1: the guest room, like we do that too, Like we've
Speaker 1: done times. Um, we know that after a couple of
Speaker 1: glasses of wine, nothing is going to get solved, So
Speaker 1: we don't do that. So now we just don't engage
Speaker 1: like we have these like peacetime conversations or wartime conversations.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think sometimes we do still engage. We
Speaker 1: just have to we when we once we realize we're engaging,
Speaker 1: we're like, Okay, we gotta do this some of the time.
Speaker 1: So I mean you talked about sleeping in separate rooms
Speaker 1: on that trip. That happens sometimes, and it's I think
Speaker 1: that's better than fighting when you're tired and drunk and hungry, hungry, Yeah,
Speaker 1: all the above. How long have you guys been together?
Speaker 1: Sixteen years? At what point in your marriage and relationship
Speaker 1: were you like, Okay, we need to start doing this different.
Speaker 1: We went to counseling, we started, I think it was
Speaker 1: really when we started working together, so about two thousand,
Speaker 1: thirteen and fourteen something like that. And I think our
Speaker 1: marriage was fine. Our marriage was good. We weren't calling
Speaker 1: the divorce lawyer. Um, it was fine, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, but we knew it could have been better.
Speaker 1: And then we kind of like poor gasoline on the fire,
Speaker 1: we started working together. So when you are in each
Speaker 1: other's faces all day, raising kids together, living together, and
Speaker 1: trying to be married to each other, it was we
Speaker 1: didn't have boundaries. We like we like work just kind
Speaker 1: of steamrolled all the way into the night and in
Speaker 1: the morning and then make it worse. I mean, Michael,
Speaker 1: I I don't know. Uh, maybe locker room talk was
Speaker 1: different when you were in the NFL and it is
Speaker 1: when you go home. My job before Kim, I wasn't
Speaker 1: in a locker room. I was in a newsroom. And
Speaker 1: I'm telling you it might be more foul and abrasive
Speaker 1: than an NFL locker the way that people talk in newsrooms.
Speaker 1: And I just thought that was how people talked when
Speaker 1: they work. I had done that for fifteen years and
Speaker 1: then I went to work with Kim and she called
Speaker 1: me on it and she's like, you're talking to me
Speaker 1: like b I mean, not like I mean. It was
Speaker 1: a lot of it was a lot of it was
Speaker 1: kind of stuff I picked up from my dad and
Speaker 1: also people in the newsroom, like a lot of passive
Speaker 1: aggressiveness and just I'm looking back on myself, I'm not proud,
Speaker 1: but that was one of the that was like one
Speaker 1: of the early stressors was I talked down to her
Speaker 1: and I talked abrasively to her. And I never knew
Speaker 1: that part of him because as a husband, he was
Speaker 1: he was great, Like it was fine, but then that
Speaker 1: kind of that work self displayed. Well, Melanie and I
Speaker 1: talked to each other like that all the time his
Speaker 1: work life, so like we talked to each other that way,
Speaker 1: and then that was kind of how it started. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, I can kind of relate to on that thing,
Speaker 1: because like one of our big fights that we got
Speaker 1: into in Canada was he brought up a work idea.
Speaker 1: And when we talk work, I'm he's I don't remember
Speaker 1: him as my husband or my friend. I go into
Speaker 1: business mode, I go into Chris Jenner. I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't know, like I think, like, you know, we
Speaker 1: should only do this many amounts and like and I
Speaker 1: just go and I don't think about feelings. I'm nice,
Speaker 1: but I just like I'm very direct with my like
Speaker 1: my words. And he takes it as because he'll get
Speaker 1: upset if I say, like, hey, where are you going?
Speaker 1: If I don't put like where are you going babe,
Speaker 1: like a softer tone or even though I mean no
Speaker 1: malicious nous or what are you doing? I'm doing work?
Speaker 1: Well what kind of work? But like he gets so
Speaker 1: like annoyed. So it's like I have to always like
Speaker 1: sugarcoat it a little bit. And when I'm talking about work.
Speaker 1: It's very hard for me to sugarcoat work. And so
Speaker 1: it was something where it's like I have to like
Speaker 1: remember in those conversations, like, oh, I'm yes, he's still
Speaker 1: my work partner, but he's also my husband. I need
Speaker 1: to be a little softer with like my my tone,
Speaker 1: I guess, and I have to be like I have
Speaker 1: to throw in a baby here, like a baby, a
Speaker 1: little baby, little honey. So I feel that, and I
Speaker 1: feel like we've had that issue before in in that
Speaker 1: sometimes like a lot of the ideas for silly videos
Speaker 1: will come out of my head and then pen does
Speaker 1: the magic and goes into the magic song room and
Speaker 1: make a song about it or something like that. But
Speaker 1: sometimes I'll say stuff and he's just not listening, and
Speaker 1: then when another person says it, it's a brilliant idea,
Speaker 1: so it's that same. And then or I'll have an
Speaker 1: idea and we call it like duck hunting or whatever,
Speaker 1: what a clay pigeon or whatever you like, and just
Speaker 1: shoot it out of the sky. And so I'll have
Speaker 1: I'll have an idea and he'll just do the same thing.
Speaker 1: But we had we actually wrote about it in the
Speaker 1: book one thing. I put it like this big scary
Speaker 1: idea that I wanted to, like we wrote about in
Speaker 1: the book. Because I had this big scary idea, I
Speaker 1: felt like, we should write a Broadway musical. By the way,
Speaker 1: it takes like twenty years to get a musical on Broadway.
Speaker 1: It is the most like scariest, weirdest thing ever. Right,
Speaker 1: And so you say that loud, and you say it
Speaker 1: to your partner and then so his his his business
Speaker 1: hat goes on right just like you were talking. And
Speaker 1: his response was, is that the best use of your time?
Speaker 1: And I was like, now, I didn't say that mean now,
Speaker 1: I would just be like, I just think there's I
Speaker 1: wouldn't say like, because that's that's what I would love
Speaker 1: to say. But I've learned, like, and so I'm better
Speaker 1: than pen he learned. And then I didn't handle it
Speaker 1: well because I got out of a moving car and
Speaker 1: walked home. Um, and so I didn't handle that well.
Speaker 1: But literally, like we took that fight to our counselor
Speaker 1: and like we we talked about that way. So we've
Speaker 1: both learned a lot. We learned a lot from counseling,
Speaker 1: We learned a lot from writing this book. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: being married, have you ever had something where you're just like,
Speaker 1: I just don't know if like I can continue on
Speaker 1: this journey where it's just it's it's just too hard,
Speaker 1: or it's just there's you just don't cease anything changing
Speaker 1: and you feel like you're just like beating your head
Speaker 1: up against the wall. Or is that just normal marriage
Speaker 1: feelings and thoughts. I've had those micro feelings, um, And
Speaker 1: by that, I mean like, while I'm in the thick
Speaker 1: of an argument where I realized that I'm just not
Speaker 1: getting anywhere and we're going in the same space. There's
Speaker 1: this sort of grief and hopelessness that comes with that,
Speaker 1: And I'm I feel very lucky to say that it's
Speaker 1: never lasted more than a few moments, um, but I
Speaker 1: know that that does happen. Yeah, And my my parents
Speaker 1: got divorced, and they were they were separated and back
Speaker 1: together and separating back together before they got divorced, like
Speaker 1: my entire childhood. So I learned. And one of the
Speaker 1: things we we learned about each other's like our fighting
Speaker 1: styles and mine was what I saw modeled right, which
Speaker 1: was you just leave. So when Penn said, is that
Speaker 1: the best use super time which is not what he meant,
Speaker 1: and it just came out really abrasively instead of engaging.
Speaker 1: I literally got out of a moving car and left.
Speaker 1: And so the beginning and up until we went to therapy,
Speaker 1: my instinct was, he says something that I don't agree with,
Speaker 1: I feel I feel belittled, I feel stupid, and I leave.
Speaker 1: And so that is my instinct. So my instinct is
Speaker 1: to leave, and it works on me because my biggest
Speaker 1: fear and my the thing that hurts me the most
Speaker 1: is being alone or or more simply just people not
Speaker 1: liking me, like I'm one of those guys that needs
Speaker 1: everybody to like him. I'm sorry, I'm just gonna call
Speaker 1: it like it is, and and so so you know,
Speaker 1: that's that's where some of the hopelessness comes from. And
Speaker 1: what we're learning through a lot of this is I
Speaker 1: still believe that was not the best use of her time.
Speaker 1: I'll take that she was doing like a billion things.
Speaker 1: We can talk about this now because we've deescalated from
Speaker 1: the fight. She even admits she like had she had
Speaker 1: taken on a lot of things, and the inside in
Speaker 1: my head was like, oh my god, she's taking on
Speaker 1: something else. We can't do any more of this. I'm
Speaker 1: not getting asleep as it is. We're doing a thousand things.
Speaker 1: But you should never answer a question that way, in
Speaker 1: a demeaning way, and project back on that person that's
Speaker 1: invalidating their feelings. You should say back, I hear you,
Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying. Here's what I feel. I
Speaker 1: didn't do any of those things. I just I just
Speaker 1: kind of, you know, put the shotgun out and shot
Speaker 1: it down. So if I could have gotten my opinion across,
Speaker 1: and we would have been fine if I just found
Speaker 1: the right way to come. But to answer your question, like,
Speaker 1: are were there moments? There were There's never been a
Speaker 1: moment personally, and I think Kendall say the same, where
Speaker 1: we were on the brink of not making it. But
Speaker 1: are there moments and flashes where all of my personal
Speaker 1: history comes up and I think, you know what, I'm
Speaker 1: packing the kids up and I'm heading out of town.
Speaker 1: Like I've had plenty of those moments because that's my instinct.
Speaker 1: So we've learned, Like, so now I have to do
Speaker 1: the work and sit in my butt in the chair
Speaker 1: and take the rest, and I have to sit there
Speaker 1: and I have to engage because that's what's hard for me.
Speaker 1: And then his like he used to just like i'm sorry,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, anything, to just de escalate anything.
Speaker 1: It's so hard. So now he has to sit his
Speaker 1: butt in the chair and say no, that hurt my feelings.
Speaker 1: Like when you left me, that hurt my feelings. So
Speaker 1: we have to show up in different ways. But it
Speaker 1: was all about learning how our fighting styles. How about
Speaker 1: when it came to working together. Obviously you guys do
Speaker 1: a million things together, but when it came to the
Speaker 1: book and you guys are sitting down starting, it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: we're going to write a book. Let's do this. How
Speaker 1: was that process for you and with your working styles?
Speaker 1: Because I know for us we worked completely different, So
Speaker 1: it was a challenge to figure out that kind of dance. Right,
Speaker 1: how is that for you guys? Well, Kim was already
Speaker 1: very up for self help, self improvement, self advancement. I've
Speaker 1: read every book. I've read every Yeah, I've read them all.
Speaker 1: I don't I do not read those books. I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: Like I had to read them a ton during research
Speaker 1: for this book. But I mean we had to get
Speaker 1: over the initial hump, which was. I felt like everything
Speaker 1: was pretty good. I felt like we were doing okay,
Speaker 1: like we were getting passing grades. Kim thought that we
Speaker 1: could be better. I thought that that meant that she
Speaker 1: was saying that she didn't like our marriage and that
Speaker 1: this whole thing was a failure. Um, she had to
Speaker 1: reassure me of that. And then really we had to
Speaker 1: kind of find a really trusted person to come in
Speaker 1: and start talking to us. The guy who helped write
Speaker 1: the book with us. He's our church pastor, but he's
Speaker 1: also been a friend of mine for twenty years and
Speaker 1: he I mean, the process became very easy when he
Speaker 1: came in because he broke it down for me two
Speaker 1: data points and ones and zeros and things that you
Speaker 1: can and things that you can't do and what goes
Speaker 1: on in your brain the way that I can understand it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And so let's be clear, he's the person that he
Speaker 1: specializes in like marriage counseling, a marriage care and he's
Speaker 1: the person that we went to. So we basically took
Speaker 1: the ten fights and it worked best with like the
Speaker 1: ten fights. And we think everybody has which is like
Speaker 1: we're having enough sex. I do everything, you do nothing,
Speaker 1: you're spending too much money like those those ten fight topics.
Speaker 1: And then we it became simpler. That's all we do about.
Speaker 1: It became simpler when we figured out, like I'm going
Speaker 1: to write my part, he writes his part, and then
Speaker 1: an editor kind of cut cuts and past they reached it,
Speaker 1: and then Christopher says stuff, and then we do research. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then we did a bunch of research. I'm so
Speaker 1: excited to read this. It's I feel like it's just
Speaker 1: comfortable right into place for us. Yeah, too, we had
Speaker 1: fun and in audible you'll like that one too. I
Speaker 1: feel like it's similar where we have because we wrote
Speaker 1: a book as well where we kind of share both
Speaker 1: of our sides, and you know, I feel like it's
Speaker 1: it's it's just it's good that these books are coming
Speaker 1: out because I like when people couples share their experiences
Speaker 1: from both sides, because it's both sides need to be heard.
Speaker 1: And I think that's where and even relationships, why we
Speaker 1: escalate is because we're just wanting to be heard, you know,
Speaker 1: and from wanting to be heard, we just escalate to
Speaker 1: the you know, the worst degree. That's right, And I
Speaker 1: wonder I'm curious if you guys had a similar response
Speaker 1: that I did. Maybe one of you did or both
Speaker 1: of you did. I uh, we're public figures were on
Speaker 1: the internet all the time we wrote the book. Um,
Speaker 1: we put the pen down to paper and it felt okay,
Speaker 1: and then I had to read the audible version of
Speaker 1: it and some of the stuff was really deep. It
Speaker 1: was like, I was so uncomfortable. The first time I
Speaker 1: had to say that was like you're reading a diary entreat.
Speaker 1: I'm like this about our sex life and now people,
Speaker 1: my mom's going to hear this. Once I got over it,
Speaker 1: it was tough. The first time, it was crazy. It
Speaker 1: was Yeah, we had the at least I know, I
Speaker 1: had the same experience where we're sitting there in the
Speaker 1: studio kind of like this and we're sitting there reading
Speaker 1: it like back and forth our parts, and I'll just
Speaker 1: kind of step back, like do we are we sure
Speaker 1: we really want to do this? Like the stuff that
Speaker 1: we're saying right now, like is this going to be
Speaker 1: received the way we hope it's going to be received?
Speaker 1: Because it's I mean, but it's good that, like Jenna say,
Speaker 1: it's like so many books before you know, some of these,
Speaker 1: like you guys are putting out. It's from one person
Speaker 1: on who's a clinical professional, who you know, acts like
Speaker 1: they have it all figured out and this is the
Speaker 1: steps to do it. But then you know they haven't
Speaker 1: gone through them themselves maybe, And so to hear from
Speaker 1: somebody like you, guys, I know, for us, it's gonna
Speaker 1: be refreshing to hear y'all's words, be like, man, we're
Speaker 1: not alone either, yeah, And don't you feel like you know,
Speaker 1: when you're dating somebody, like you can talk to your
Speaker 1: girlfriends about like, oh, we got in a fight and
Speaker 1: every you know, and you can talk about that, But
Speaker 1: as soon as you're married, there's this like veil of secrecy,
Speaker 1: like we no longer talk about our relationships with people really.
Speaker 1: And then it was only when we kind of told
Speaker 1: our circle of friends we were doing the research for
Speaker 1: this book and we were writing this book that people
Speaker 1: can fide in us about a lot of the issues
Speaker 1: they were having and they were asking us for advice,
Speaker 1: and I was like, guys, we should be talking about this,
Speaker 1: and let's normalize the fact that no marriage is perfect,
Speaker 1: no relationship is perfect. A good marriage can become a
Speaker 1: great marriage. And really, there are some really easy communication
Speaker 1: hacks that we've put into place. So how can a
Speaker 1: good marriage become a great marriage? I mean it's communication based,
Speaker 1: at least in our book it is. I mean, fights
Speaker 1: are all about going back and forth. The cliffs notes
Speaker 1: of it is. We have these scripts, and we have
Speaker 1: these magic words you can say when you're in the
Speaker 1: middle of a of an argument. Could you give us
Speaker 1: right now? Yeah? Sure, um, you just that you kind
Speaker 1: of almost did do when they're tell me more is
Speaker 1: one of the best ones that you can do when
Speaker 1: someone's finished talking, instead of turning it around and disagreeing
Speaker 1: with it, make an effort to try to understand it
Speaker 1: better and say tell me more. So even said when
Speaker 1: I had said, Penn, I think we should read a
Speaker 1: Broadway musical. If Penn and said tell me more, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm really just you know, yearning for creative
Speaker 1: outlet right now, I feel really bogged down with this,
Speaker 1: this this. If you had followed up with tell me
Speaker 1: more about that, if you just let me spiral and
Speaker 1: talk that that wasn't even a fight, right, Oh my god,
Speaker 1: that would have helped us so much. When we were
Speaker 1: in Vancouver because I was overwhelmed with work, like had
Speaker 1: been filming a movie for you know, three and a
Speaker 1: half weeks, and I was like, Mike, I I'm feeling
Speaker 1: like claustrophobic. I don't I don't want to go home yet,
Speaker 1: like I feel like I haven't had it. I need
Speaker 1: to have fun. I need to decompress before I go
Speaker 1: back home to Nashville. And I'm back in mom work mode.
Speaker 1: And he's like, if you would have said tell me more,
Speaker 1: I would have I would have felt so heard and
Speaker 1: just like you care. And if I would have said
Speaker 1: tell me more about your gun business you wanted to
Speaker 1: do instead of being like that's what you want to
Speaker 1: do right now? Like yeah, like are you trying? It's
Speaker 1: the best easy of your time, said Penn, But really,
Speaker 1: what Jenna want. I'm gonna start hearing Penn's voice now
Speaker 1: every time, like I know you want to say that
Speaker 1: Pen's voice, but also simple to say, like tell me more,
Speaker 1: because you don't have to agree with it, understand it,
Speaker 1: but you to be like I would love to hear
Speaker 1: like tell me more, man, I'm interested, and then repeat
Speaker 1: back what what he's saying. It's like, okay, so what
Speaker 1: I hear you say is you're really interested in starting
Speaker 1: this business, Okay, and then so you just like repeat
Speaker 1: back and it doesn't commit you to an answer. But
Speaker 1: I think you had pointed this out in the beginning,
Speaker 1: is that we are all here in this partnership just
Speaker 1: to be seen. And my job in this part ownership
Speaker 1: is just to be a witness to his life story.
Speaker 1: My job is to be his pr person. My job
Speaker 1: is to be his hype man. Right. He does not
Speaker 1: complete me, I do not complete him. But we are partners.
Speaker 1: We are jumping off this cliff together and holding hands.
Speaker 1: And if we can't show up for each other in
Speaker 1: that way and he can't see me, and if I
Speaker 1: can't really see him, and what are we doing? Right?
Speaker 1: And so that's why our marriage was fine. Our marriage
Speaker 1: was fine. We did carpool, we would get in a fight,
Speaker 1: we would laugh at a TV show, we'd have sex.
Speaker 1: We were and it was fine. But like to really
Speaker 1: have those great those great moments of connection, um, those
Speaker 1: really just weren't even happening. So that's why I just
Speaker 1: when I went that I'm a very um, I just
Speaker 1: recently learned I'm in any Graham type one and that
Speaker 1: means I'm a perfectionists allegedly. I know, right, I'm not.
Speaker 1: I'm not a type plan. I'm a I'm a what
Speaker 1: a positives? My ever a Blone Retriever job would be,
Speaker 1: I'm a futuristic positives. He's like a messy, happy person.
Speaker 1: And so when I went into this counseling, I had
Speaker 1: a notebook. I'm like, just tell me exactly what to say.
Speaker 1: Tell me what to say when he comes at me
Speaker 1: with this, or tell me what to say when I'm
Speaker 1: feeling because I have anxiety and depression, like when I'm
Speaker 1: spiraling and he doesn't understand me. That tell me the
Speaker 1: words to say. And then that's exactly just like what
Speaker 1: we wrote in our book at the end of the
Speaker 1: chapters were like, shortcut, just say this because there are
Speaker 1: times when I'm like, you're saying claustrophobic. That's what anxiety
Speaker 1: feels like to me. It feels like somebody standing on
Speaker 1: my chest and I have trouble breathing. And how do
Speaker 1: I explain that to somebody who's like a Golden Retriever, right,
Speaker 1: Like he's experience that in his whole life. But then
Speaker 1: but through this he's been able to see and hear
Speaker 1: me and knows now exactly what I need in those moments,
Speaker 1: and then you know, and then I can help him
Speaker 1: through his I love tell me more where I'm definitely
Speaker 1: gonna take that. Do it. I've got some more for
Speaker 1: you if you want to. Here's another one. If you
Speaker 1: want something and this includes sex, this includes anything. If
Speaker 1: you want something, tell the person what you want and
Speaker 1: and say because after whatever it is that you want,
Speaker 1: say because it's like scientifically proven if you give a
Speaker 1: reason for what you want, you're more likely to. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The other the other thing you can do to go
Speaker 1: even further is Kim can say why, and you can
Speaker 1: say because it can and then she can say why
Speaker 1: and you can say because again and after the third
Speaker 1: because you're really getting to the heart of the matter
Speaker 1: at that point. Yeah, like I really I've been working
Speaker 1: so hard and this movie, I really feel the need
Speaker 1: to relax and online. But we did that and there
Speaker 1: was a no. Well, and then he's well, and you said,
Speaker 1: because I feel like we need to connect before we
Speaker 1: just jump back into our lives as parents, as working people,
Speaker 1: and then he said no, and then what happens and
Speaker 1: then and then you say I and feel I feel
Speaker 1: because you keep going this until you understand each other.
Speaker 1: That one might be a little harder because I feel
Speaker 1: like I am semi direct with my words better. I
Speaker 1: used to be super passive, and I feel like now
Speaker 1: I'm more on train or on track of being direct. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's kind of a motto in our marriage is like
Speaker 1: mature people ask for what they want. I used to
Speaker 1: just like he's like, what do you want for lunch?
Speaker 1: And like I don't care, just get me whatever? Like no,
Speaker 1: just mature people, Like, yeah, mature people need more pen.
Speaker 1: There's a bunch, um there is h This one takes
Speaker 1: a little bit of explaining. Um, we have a we
Speaker 1: have a code that we say called secret contract and
Speaker 1: it basically means, okay, so you guys have secret contracts.
Speaker 1: If you've been married, if you've been together for a week,
Speaker 1: you start building these things. They're unspoken things that you
Speaker 1: do that you just do. Kim just changes the toilet paper,
Speaker 1: always changed. She does the cooking, I do the dishes.
Speaker 1: She wakes the kids up, I take him to school
Speaker 1: because she doesn't want to put a brawl on. Um
Speaker 1: I uh yeah, I put the dogs to sleep, she
Speaker 1: lets me sleep in. Most of these are really good contracts,
Speaker 1: but every once in a while, there's something that you
Speaker 1: have been kind of tasked with doing that deep down
Speaker 1: you hate, and that will bubble up into in Kim's case,
Speaker 1: like a giant um week long strike against toilet paper
Speaker 1: that she took to Instagram on and like publicly shamed
Speaker 1: her husband about not changing for a week. We there
Speaker 1: was no toilet paper in the bathroom and he continued
Speaker 1: to use it. No, no, because there was a clean
Speaker 1: X box underneath the sink, and clean X if you like,
Speaker 1: let it sit in the toilet for a little while.
Speaker 1: It won't call it the toilet, and it's a hundred
Speaker 1: times softer and better than toilet. Ever, I'm just saying
Speaker 1: that out loud if some might call your genius. But
Speaker 1: then it's so secret. Contracts were great if they work
Speaker 1: for you, right, But I was very presentable because I
Speaker 1: did all the house where his secret contract the role
Speaker 1: he plays, he has the Golden retreat for in our marriage. Right,
Speaker 1: So he's the he's the hype man, he's the cheerleader,
Speaker 1: he's the fun guy. But what happens when he goes
Speaker 1: through some stuff and he needs to be sad, Like
Speaker 1: he always feels like he has to be happy, and
Speaker 1: so I just if I know he's going through stuff,
Speaker 1: like he's gone through some stuff with his parents, I'll
Speaker 1: just say a secret contract. I got this. You can
Speaker 1: be sad now I can. I got this. And if
Speaker 1: kims head anxiety and she's been up all night, she'll she'll,
Speaker 1: you know, she'll kind of rub my shoulder at about
Speaker 1: seven o'clock and say, secret contract, I need you to
Speaker 1: take the kids. And it's it's one of those situations
Speaker 1: where you know, as soon as she says that I
Speaker 1: do this all the time, it's okay, but for now
Speaker 1: I'd like to change it. Um so's Yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: kind of like the roles like we've talked about. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just and we defined talk about we never had
Speaker 1: the discussion that I was always going to be the
Speaker 1: person who would change the toilet paper. I never already
Speaker 1: decided that. It was just it just happened, you know.
Speaker 1: I think it's I think that's a really important one,
Speaker 1: because you start to have resentment if you if those
Speaker 1: roles aren't if it's actually something you don't want to
Speaker 1: be doing. It's like laundry for her, she always just
Speaker 1: kind of happens to do it. Like the kids laundry,
Speaker 1: and we never decided, but I think that's the one
Speaker 1: you hold resentment. It's just acknowledgement sometimes, you know, just
Speaker 1: the I'm obviously my mom. I'm it's fine, it's part
Speaker 1: of one of my duties. But it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: we usually we discuss like you're the cook, I'm the cleaner.
Speaker 1: You know, it's just the right I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: really what we don't want to discuss. It just kind
Speaker 1: of well like we do when am I going to cook?
Speaker 1: I don't cook right because I'm a better cook and
Speaker 1: it works. So that's a super contract that works, right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you keep people fed and then you clean and then yeah, um,
Speaker 1: where can our listeners find all of this stuff? Like
Speaker 1: you guys on Instagram? Obviously? The book are on the
Speaker 1: on the social media's we are the Holderness family, um
Speaker 1: and kind likes to say it's like wilderness but with
Speaker 1: a hoe. So I see you guys, Oh cute follow back,
Speaker 1: I love you, um. And then this is Everybody Fights
Speaker 1: book dot com and yeah, um, I'm super excited to
Speaker 1: deep dive right now into your Instagram because the first
Speaker 1: thing I see is how I really feel. I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: I cannot wait. Um, it's basically me because I'm an
Speaker 1: introvert to quarantine. Actually wasn't terrible for me, and I
Speaker 1: just want to spit in my pajamas all day long. Um,
Speaker 1: it's basically how I really feel. We're getting vaccinated. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I have to go out in public. I'm kind of
Speaker 1: cool just staying here, guys, because you guys are in rally, right, Yeah, okay, Well,
Speaker 1: whenever you guys come to Nashville, let us know. We
Speaker 1: love Nashville. Isn't that where the book people are. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of publishing in Nashville. Right, So come
Speaker 1: and we're open. Come on, We're gonna vaccinated soon. Hang on, almost,
Speaker 1: I have to ask this question. So you were in Vancouver.
Speaker 1: I'm putting some pieces together. You were in Vancouver shooting
Speaker 1: over the winter. That's usually like Hallmark movies, right, and
Speaker 1: it's even better. We so we did like a bunch
Speaker 1: of parodies of Hallmark and Lifetime Christmas movies in December. Yes,
Speaker 1: and the reasons here's the reason why we so like
Speaker 1: quarantine and COVID. Particularly on my girls, they got really
Speaker 1: bummed out when Christmas time came around, and so they
Speaker 1: binge watched all these amazing movies. Sorry, amazing Christmas. I
Speaker 1: love them. Amazing plots. I want to stories. I don't
Speaker 1: want to be surprised. I want to know exactly how
Speaker 1: it's going to end. Beautiful girl meets handsome guy. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: big city girl. There's a festival in her home. There's
Speaker 1: a festival where there's a tree lighting. Is what I
Speaker 1: wanted in all twenty seven the same plot twist me
Speaker 1: I don't make don't make it a murder mystery. None
Speaker 1: of that actually, so another one of the ideas I
Speaker 1: threw out. I'm like, I want to write one of those,
Speaker 1: like I don't have so please please do. But everything
Speaker 1: I'm right, I want to make it a musical obviously,
Speaker 1: but everything I'm writing is like, there's only one storyline.
Speaker 1: I can't even get creative with it. I have plenty
Speaker 1: of time, like Pen says, you can plenty of time,
Speaker 1: lots of time, lots of free sime. Well, we can't
Speaker 1: wait to watch it. Um, you guys are so sweet.
Speaker 1: Seriously come visit. Thank you for coming on wine Down
Speaker 1: And I'm excited to read your guys book because everyone
Speaker 1: does fight so especially yes Pen Kim thank you guys
Speaker 1: so much. We appreciate your time. We love to have
Speaker 1: you guys back on to thank you, Thank you guys.
Speaker 1: You know, as much as we've gotten validated through our
Speaker 1: book and people responding to it and just saying how
Speaker 1: much they appreciate it and can relate, I love talking
Speaker 1: to people like Kim and Penn and just hearing their
Speaker 1: stories being like, man, we're not the only ones, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it just it feels it feels good. I mean,
Speaker 1: even like when we talk to people like Liza and
Speaker 1: having those conversations and reading you know, other books of
Speaker 1: other couples that we look up to that it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: they have crossroads and they have fights and they have arguments,
Speaker 1: but yet they're still in love and they're still happy
Speaker 1: to like, I don't know, I like that. Do we
Speaker 1: have any emails? We do have some emails. Interesting, all right,
Speaker 1: This is from Alexandra. My best friend's husband has become
Speaker 1: an alcoholic and isn't asked to her more and more frequently.
Speaker 1: They have a year and a half old son, and
Speaker 1: she has settled down stopped drinking during pregnancy, and he didn't. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: his problem seems to be getting worse. Oh, he's not
Speaker 1: physically abusive. I fear from my friend and my godson
Speaker 1: that he might become that. Their parents all want her
Speaker 1: to leave him and get a divorce. She's not ready
Speaker 1: to make that decision yet. As a friend, how do
Speaker 1: I support her? And what advice can I give her?
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess this kind of goes with what
Speaker 1: we've been talking about, is there's relationships that can work,
Speaker 1: and then there's the relationships where someone is just an
Speaker 1: active addiction and that person is wanting and that person
Speaker 1: is wanting to not believe it. Maybe they're an active
Speaker 1: addiction and fight through it, but it's just that's so
Speaker 1: hard because you're not going to get anywhere if like
Speaker 1: if if you were like acting out in an active addiction,
Speaker 1: it's like you can't, I can't hold all those pieces together,
Speaker 1: Like that'd be impossible. So to support her or I
Speaker 1: would just say that, I mean, she's gonna want to try,
Speaker 1: but don't isolate her, but also don't continue to tell
Speaker 1: her that she'd be okay alone. Yeah, I would say,
Speaker 1: you know, in situations like this, no one from the
Speaker 1: outside is going to be able to make the decision
Speaker 1: for your friend. So your job as a friend and
Speaker 1: as godmother to her son is to just ask her
Speaker 1: questions so she gets to the verdict herself, right, So
Speaker 1: ask her why, like, what are your reasons for staying?
Speaker 1: What are your fears around it? What are your fears
Speaker 1: about leaving? And have those conversations and allow her to
Speaker 1: talk through it and have the dialogue with you and
Speaker 1: for her to realize, Man, the only reasons I am
Speaker 1: starting staying are X and Y. But the reasons you
Speaker 1: know I should leave our you know, A through Z.
Speaker 1: You know, there's a significant more amount of reasons. So
Speaker 1: just allowing them to figure it out themselves as you
Speaker 1: kind of help navigate them through these questions and ask
Speaker 1: the appropriate questions. Is is my biggest advice for what
Speaker 1: for what I would do? And if I had a
Speaker 1: friend in that situation, Yeah, and if f thro P
Speaker 1: is really bad, you know, but then you get D
Speaker 1: through D and G and then oh through you know X.
Speaker 1: You know, I was just shooting from hip on that one, guys,
Speaker 1: but you get what I'm saying, Alexandra. Just allow her
Speaker 1: to figure it out for herself as you guide her.
Speaker 1: I don't know that because C could really be a
Speaker 1: bummer onto the next email. This is from Alyssa. I
Speaker 1: will be twenty seven and April. My husband just turned
Speaker 1: thirty five. I suffer from Pico's PCOS and am lucky
Speaker 1: if I have two periods a year. Because we knew
Speaker 1: this would be difficult for us, we started to try
Speaker 1: to get pregnant about a month after we were married.
Speaker 1: We got pregnant off the bat. Then I'm miscarried around
Speaker 1: six weeks. Since then, we have not been able to
Speaker 1: get pregnant. We started going to a chain of doctors
Speaker 1: specialist medications, and I'm afraid we're getting to the point
Speaker 1: of I U I and I VF. I feel like
Speaker 1: my husband isn't as emotional about this as I am.
Speaker 1: I know he wants children. He just says to trust
Speaker 1: in God and enjoy the time we have together before
Speaker 1: children come into the mix. I love that thought process,
Speaker 1: but I still get sad with bad news. So I
Speaker 1: wanted to ask Mike, what were your thoughts and feelings
Speaker 1: as you and Jana were going through treatment. You know,
Speaker 1: it's tough because as a as a guy, you know,
Speaker 1: we have our own feelings, but also you know our
Speaker 1: feelings only go to a certain depth. Because we don't
Speaker 1: have as much of the um feeling of responsibility as
Speaker 1: the female does. So I don't want to say that
Speaker 1: our feelings are the same as y'all's, because they're not
Speaker 1: at all. And so when Jana was going through that stuff,
Speaker 1: all I could do, and what I thought my job
Speaker 1: was was to just be as positive as I could
Speaker 1: without minimizing what she was feeling or the situation. So
Speaker 1: it's great for your for your husband to stay positive,
Speaker 1: but he also needs to allow the space for sadness
Speaker 1: and for you to feel that because if he's just like,
Speaker 1: don't worry, it's in God's hands and now you don't worry,
Speaker 1: it's gonna happen. Let's just enjoy the time together. If
Speaker 1: it's that's good. But if it's that continuously, then he's
Speaker 1: not really giving you the space to have the feelings
Speaker 1: that you need to express. And that's very important. Just
Speaker 1: from our experience through this UM and having done that
Speaker 1: a couple of times, it's very important for for the
Speaker 1: female to have that space and for the male to
Speaker 1: find that happy dance between optimistic and empathetic. Yeah. Um, well,
Speaker 1: good show, guys, good show. Um, We've got some good stuff.
Speaker 1: Coming in the books, coming down the pipeline that we're
Speaker 1: really pumped about. So you know, that's what we want
Speaker 1: to do. Give you guys something entertaining to listen to
Speaker 1: and to grow as a person. So I appreciate you
Speaker 1: all listening. La