1 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Wind Down with Jenne Kramer and Michael Coughlin and I'm 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:09,040 Speaker 1: her radio podcast excited for our guests today because we 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: have their book is Everybody Fights? Yeah, so why not 4 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,239 Speaker 1: get better at it? But it's interesting. It's just yeah, 5 00:00:18,280 --> 00:00:23,639 Speaker 1: it's an overall interesting topic because I had posted that 6 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: thing on social media kind of like talking about you 7 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: know how it can be hard at times and fights 8 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: happen and they stink, but you know, I sometimes take 9 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 1: photos to remember that even though in the that moment 10 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: it feels like the end of the world, it's not 11 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: really like once you get out of it. Um. But 12 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 1: it's interesting because so many people have them to me 13 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:56,319 Speaker 1: and said, like if you're so unhappy, like why like 14 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: why stay in your relationship? And I'm like, it has 15 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: nothing to do with an happiness, Like I may look 16 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: unhappy at times, like you know, because maybe we're fighting 17 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: or but it's not a general unhappiness general unhappiness. Does 18 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: that make sense? Like I think if it's every day 19 00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: and more times than not than yeah, Like I think 20 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,480 Speaker 1: you need to look in, you need to look inside 21 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: and be like, am I really happy? Like is this 22 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: relations serving relationships? Serving me? Am I? My best version 23 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: right now, you know, is it is this a constant thing, 24 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: but I think so many times, you know, when we 25 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: have arguments or disagreements, that it can it can feel 26 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: like the end of the world, and it can feel 27 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: you know, for for most of just like for me 28 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: or you know, it's very like I think it's one 29 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: or the other. Um, but I don't think it's a 30 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: like I don't think I'm unhappy, you know, well, like 31 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: I know I'm not unhappy, no, but I mean I 32 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: know no, but I mean, you know, like I've I've 33 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: written down because at times like it does feel like 34 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,959 Speaker 1: this is too hard and we fight and this and that, 35 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: so you know, you start, I started writing down and 36 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: that's been like a helpful tool for me because it's like, okay, 37 00:02:19,000 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: it's not every day. Has it been a little bit 38 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,920 Speaker 1: more consistent lately, Yeah, And I don't like that. But 39 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: if that continues on like that for the entire year, 40 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: and then that's when you go, okay, like maybe my 41 00:02:29,720 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: maybe I am more times than not unhappy, but that's 42 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 1: not the reality in this moment, Like more times than now, 43 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: I'm happy, We're happy, We're good, you know, I think 44 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 1: with Canada in the movie and you know some it 45 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: was a little bit more frequent, but and then I 46 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: think if that stays that way, then that's when you 47 00:02:48,120 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: have to, yeah, maybe evaluate your relationship. But that's not 48 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: But it's also like seasons, like people go through things 49 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 1: and you have to kind of look at it is 50 00:02:58,160 --> 00:02:59,920 Speaker 1: like is this all the time or is this just 51 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: a few times? Because I think a few times is normal. 52 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: Just like the book, like everyone fights, Like everyone has 53 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:11,919 Speaker 1: fights and disagreements and underlying you know, um resentments or 54 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: like it's just about how to fight better and like 55 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: you know, we talked about in our book, like the 56 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:18,919 Speaker 1: good fights about fighting for each other, not against each other. 57 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: But I just like, I don't know. That kind of 58 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: just kind of struck me where because I'm like, like, 59 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 1: if you're so unhappy? I was like, where did I 60 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: say I was unhappy? Like I know sometimes like we 61 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: may be sad, but it's aren't we all unhappy at times? 62 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: It just me, no, everybody is, And I think, you 63 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: know there's there's levels of this in our situation, you 64 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: know too, right, It's uh for some relationships that don't 65 00:03:48,920 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: have a traumatic history like we do, you know, their 66 00:03:55,680 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: fights might not carry as much weight because of there 67 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: there might not be past triggers and a bigger pain 68 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: that comes up underneath of something. So I think I 69 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 1: think that's a big part of it for for our situation, 70 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,200 Speaker 1: where you know, small fights can turn into something bigger 71 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:15,559 Speaker 1: because of the things that we've been through in our relationship. 72 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: And then I also think it's a personality thing too. 73 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 1: I think some people are just more inclined to, you know, uh, 74 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: have that feeling, not that it's negative or positive, just 75 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 1: some people are just kind of that way. And You're 76 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,160 Speaker 1: You've been more of one of those people to kind 77 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,839 Speaker 1: of be that way of where it just feels like 78 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 1: the way to the world at times. And I think 79 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: that is because of our past, because I'm like, I 80 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 1: don't want to have to like struggle all the time, 81 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:49,159 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like I don't want it 82 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:51,520 Speaker 1: to be like this heavy, and it shouldn't be, you know, 83 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 1: but unfortunately with our past, it's like we're way better 84 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: than we were for sure, but it's like sometimes just 85 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 1: like you know, I don't want to like be I 86 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:06,600 Speaker 1: don't want this to always feel so heavy when we 87 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: just have a simple argument, you know, um, And I 88 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: think that's like you said, it's just our situations a 89 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: little bit, you know, walking through that, and but I mean, 90 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: obviously we're like way better than it used to be. 91 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: But I think just the underlying question of it all 92 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 1: is this, you know. I think you can look at 93 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: your relationship and no, and I was just talking to 94 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: a girlfriend about this today on a walk. It's you 95 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 1: have to kind of just almost yeah, like righte it 96 00:05:35,640 --> 00:05:38,480 Speaker 1: out and be like because in the moment it feels 97 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 1: so like I'm so unhappy. Well, yeah, I'm unhappy right 98 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: now because either I'm not getting one of my needs 99 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: met or you're not getting one of your needs met. 100 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean like throw the towel and this 101 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 1: is over and it's terrible that we're fighting. It's like, no, okay, 102 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: someone's needs aren't getting met. Let's communicate and grow together 103 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: and get stronger. Now. The problem we're unhappiness, I think 104 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: becomes a thing is when there's just no love left 105 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 1: to continue to fight together. I mean that's what I say, Like, 106 00:06:11,600 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: apathy is the killer. As soon as someone's apathetic and 107 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: just doesn't give it anymore, that's when, you know. And 108 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting too, because you know that book, 109 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: um that we had been reading and we're going to 110 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: get back into now that we're back from Canada. Um 111 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: the vertical marriage with David Ann Wilson, that we're going 112 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: to try to have them on here in the near future. 113 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: But in that book it says something that you and 114 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:40,160 Speaker 1: I related to where she was talking about there talking 115 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: about a situation and how Anne was saying she didn't 116 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: feel chosen um and it's the smallest thing, and todave 117 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:54,679 Speaker 1: to the man, he was just like, well, you said 118 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: yes to me on our wedding day. That's like enough 119 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: for me, you know. So I know that's kind of 120 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: how I feel at times. It's easier for me to 121 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: be optimistic, not only from our past right because on 122 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 1: the perpetrator, so obviously I just want to think of 123 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: the positive. And then I think too, It's just something 124 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: in me as a man where I'm just like I'm 125 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: and and being so reminded to I'm like, I'm committed 126 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: to you. I'm committed to our marriage and making it work. 127 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,239 Speaker 1: We're gonna have good days, bad days, good faces, bad phaces, 128 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,200 Speaker 1: but I'm in it like I'm in it for life. 129 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: And granted, yeah, I mean we have to grow and 130 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: fight for each other and do other things in between. 131 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: I don't mean to make it sounds simplistic um because 132 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: it's not easy. Simple. It's a simple simple in theory, 133 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: but it's not easy. But it's just, you know, I 134 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:49,680 Speaker 1: don't know. People are different handled things, different situations, and 135 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: I totally understand, like how at times you feel your 136 00:07:53,600 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: weight than maybe I do, meaning p because of your personality, 137 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 1: because of the trauma that I've put you through. It 138 00:08:06,080 --> 00:08:09,680 Speaker 1: being easy, it being more understandable for you to have 139 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 1: that mindset of like in this moment, I can't see 140 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:15,720 Speaker 1: the light at the end of the tunnel, Like it's 141 00:08:15,720 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: harder for you to see that than me, is what 142 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: I'm saying, You know what I mean. So I'm sure 143 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: a lot of relationships are like that, even if there 144 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: isn't a traumatic thing, just based on their personality, it 145 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: might be easier for one or simpler for one to 146 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,280 Speaker 1: see the light at the end of the of that 147 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 1: tunnel of that fight than the other person, which I 148 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: think is important because if both people are just what's 149 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: the point why I can't do this, then you're just 150 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 1: gonna You're not gonna get anywhere, you know. So, yeah, 151 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: I mean, that's it's a bummer that people would just 152 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: I can understand why people would see your posts and 153 00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: just make up that you're saying you're not happy. Yeah, 154 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: because I was like nowhere, I never said anywhere that 155 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: I wasn't happy. I said, you know, it's you said 156 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: I think I'm happy. No, I said, you know, it's 157 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: people fight. No relationship is perfect, even though it looks 158 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: like it on Instagram, you know. And yeah, someone noticed 159 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: that we weren't sleeping in the same bed and Canada. 160 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: It's like, Okay, this is doesn't mean that we're unhappy. 161 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: It's just we have things that, like any other relationship, 162 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: that we need to continue to grow and get better 163 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 1: at and communicate better. And you know, listen to what 164 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: we talked about in our own book, and but there's 165 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: nothing that's Yeah, it's just it's like, because everybody does fight, 166 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 1: and some are just a little heavier and maybe wigh 167 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 1: a little bit deeper. But a fight is a fight, 168 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: and you know, yeah, and my thing is like you 169 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: know what I tell you a lot of times when 170 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: we're back on the men, like after a rough patches, 171 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: like there's no one else in this world I'd rather 172 00:09:57,080 --> 00:10:00,840 Speaker 1: go through this within you, right, like go your life together, 173 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: and that's like the end of the day, that's my thing. 174 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: It's like it's gonna be the same if it's with 175 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: somebody else, you know. But so I'd rather just I 176 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: would rather do it with you because I love you 177 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: and I want to do it with you. Well, And 178 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: that's kind of like what my girlfriend never saying, Like 179 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,280 Speaker 1: if the love is still there and two people, like 180 00:10:20,280 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: we even talked about in our book, like two people 181 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: are willing to work and fight at it, like then 182 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 1: you can continue to grow. But when the love has 183 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 1: gone to that's just that's tough. But yeah, I mean 184 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:34,240 Speaker 1: I think you have to figure out what you want 185 00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 1: for yourself and look at it. Because if if I 186 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: was unhappy, like I don't want Like I have a 187 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: friend who is in a marriage that's not happy. He's 188 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: not changing, he's not willing to really change, and it's 189 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:50,360 Speaker 1: like and I look at her, and I'm like, I 190 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: don't want to spend you know, I'm gonna be forty 191 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 1: in the next few years. I don't want to spend 192 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: the next forty fighting so hard for this and like 193 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:07,079 Speaker 1: how my unhappy to have my happiness be? Um? In 194 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 1: in doubt, you know, like I I don't want my 195 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: kids to see that, Like I want the next sacrifice 196 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,079 Speaker 1: your happiness. Yeah, I don't want to sacrifice it, and 197 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 1: I don't. I'm like, I don't want to if it's 198 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: not going in the direction of stronger, healthier, growing, you know, happiness, 199 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: Like what's the like then I'm like I agree with 200 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:27,760 Speaker 1: people that you know, like, then what is the point? 201 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: Because like, I don't want to spend the next forty 202 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 1: miserable and unhappy and being with someone that doesn't want 203 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 1: to change, doesn't want to grow, doesn't want to work 204 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 1: on things. But it's like, that's not what's happening. What's 205 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: happening is we are fighting, and we're learning and we're growing, 206 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: and we can still be happy and still have fights. 207 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:49,280 Speaker 1: And I think that's what's so great about you know, 208 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: our book, their book. Everyone fights because there's ways to 209 00:11:54,559 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: realize that it's okay. Deal with it, listeners and yeah, 210 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: we fight, deal with it. Yeah they know they're subscribed. Um, well, 211 00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: let's take a break and get Kim and pen On 212 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: here and let's talk everything fights and their book and 213 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:31,840 Speaker 1: how they work through it. I have friends, How are 214 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 1: you guys. I'm Janna and this is my husband Mike. 215 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 1: You are I'm him, and this is Pen. Guys. I'm 216 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: excited to talk to you because last week we talked 217 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 1: about some kind of fights that we were having while 218 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: we were uh essentially re quarantining because we were in 219 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: Vancouver for six weeks. Um and I remember getting the 220 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,719 Speaker 1: breakdown and being like, oh, yes, I cannot wait to 221 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 1: talk to you because you have a book it's called 222 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 1: Everybody Fights, and you know, someone had asked me It's like, oh, 223 00:13:05,160 --> 00:13:07,760 Speaker 1: I noticed, like Mike wasn't sleeping in the bed, you know, 224 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 1: while a few nights while you were in Canada. And 225 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: I'm like, look, it's just sometimes we fight, you know 226 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: what I'm like, And that's okay, But want I just 227 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,839 Speaker 1: wanted how long have you guys been married for? We've 228 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 1: been married for going to make me do some math here, 229 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: uh sixteen sixteen years? He cheated sixteen years and we 230 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: believe you. You don't have that whole rule. I don't 231 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: go to bed angry. No, we go to bed angry 232 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: sometimes because and you know, like people have fomo, I 233 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: have like bombs, like instead of fear of missing out 234 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:41,719 Speaker 1: of a fear of missing sleep. So I'd rather get 235 00:13:41,760 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 1: to sleep, sleep well, wake up refreshed, and then we 236 00:13:45,679 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: can hash it out. Wait, but can you just kind 237 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: of like dropped a bomb though, Like you just said, 238 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: it's in sixteen years since he cheated, no getting the number? 239 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 1: I was. I whispered to her the numbers exclusive. No, 240 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: I heard it too, and I was like maybe that 241 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: I'll just keep on going. I hear everything. Sorry about that, Um, 242 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: but it's it's great as your tag tagline is, why 243 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: not get better at it? So? How do you guys 244 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: fight better? Um? The start of it is we talk 245 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: about the fights. The term that we use in the 246 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: book is metic communicating. We take kind of a step 247 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: back and we Monday morning quarterback, if you will. We 248 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 1: kind of talk about it after it's over. Um, we're 249 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 1: at the point now where we talk about it while 250 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: it's going on, because there are a lot of things 251 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: that happened to your brain and your body during fights 252 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 1: that you can't control, and it causes you to do 253 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:52,320 Speaker 1: stupid crap all the time. And we've kind of learned 254 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: what those things are. And once we see them coming, uh, 255 00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: we take a little bit of a beat, we de 256 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,080 Speaker 1: escalate and we come back when and our you know what, 257 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:06,200 Speaker 1: our nervous system isn't completely haywire well, and I do 258 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:09,080 Speaker 1: believe you know how to hurt your partner, Like you 259 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: know exactly how you can hurt your person, right, you 260 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: know the very specific ways there achilles healed in which 261 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: you can torture them. So don't do it. And we 262 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: know now how to zoom out that talking about the 263 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: fight is if you've solved the fight, let's say that, 264 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 1: like you have to come to resolution. But if you 265 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 1: can zoom out, and that's when we recognize, like any 266 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: fight that started at ten o'clock at night for me 267 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: because I go to bed early because I wake up 268 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: super early, that's not going to end well. So we 269 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: just don't do it. Like so if something comes up 270 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,760 Speaker 1: at night, I'm like, you know what, we're going to 271 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: work this out tomorrow. If that means he sleeps in 272 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: the guest room, like we do that too, Like we've 273 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 1: done times. Um, we know that after a couple of 274 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,040 Speaker 1: glasses of wine, nothing is going to get solved, So 275 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: we don't do that. So now we just don't engage 276 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: like we have these like peacetime conversations or wartime conversations. 277 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I think sometimes we do still engage. We 278 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,480 Speaker 1: just have to we when we once we realize we're engaging, 279 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: we're like, Okay, we gotta do this some of the time. 280 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: So I mean you talked about sleeping in separate rooms 281 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: on that trip. That happens sometimes, and it's I think 282 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 1: that's better than fighting when you're tired and drunk and hungry, hungry, Yeah, 283 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: all the above. How long have you guys been together? 284 00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: Sixteen years? At what point in your marriage and relationship 285 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: were you like, Okay, we need to start doing this different. 286 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: We went to counseling, we started, I think it was 287 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: really when we started working together, so about two thousand, 288 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: thirteen and fourteen something like that. And I think our 289 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 1: marriage was fine. Our marriage was good. We weren't calling 290 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: the divorce lawyer. Um, it was fine, you know what 291 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 1: I mean, but we knew it could have been better. 292 00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: And then we kind of like poor gasoline on the fire, 293 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: we started working together. So when you are in each 294 00:16:56,520 --> 00:17:00,080 Speaker 1: other's faces all day, raising kids together, living together, and 295 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: trying to be married to each other, it was we 296 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,640 Speaker 1: didn't have boundaries. We like we like work just kind 297 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: of steamrolled all the way into the night and in 298 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: the morning and then make it worse. I mean, Michael, 299 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 1: I I don't know. Uh, maybe locker room talk was 300 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:17,879 Speaker 1: different when you were in the NFL and it is 301 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: when you go home. My job before Kim, I wasn't 302 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:23,439 Speaker 1: in a locker room. I was in a newsroom. And 303 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: I'm telling you it might be more foul and abrasive 304 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,719 Speaker 1: than an NFL locker the way that people talk in newsrooms. 305 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: And I just thought that was how people talked when 306 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: they work. I had done that for fifteen years and 307 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: then I went to work with Kim and she called 308 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: me on it and she's like, you're talking to me 309 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,879 Speaker 1: like b I mean, not like I mean. It was 310 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 1: a lot of it was a lot of it was 311 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,119 Speaker 1: kind of stuff I picked up from my dad and 312 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: also people in the newsroom, like a lot of passive 313 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 1: aggressiveness and just I'm looking back on myself, I'm not proud, 314 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:54,719 Speaker 1: but that was one of the that was like one 315 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,040 Speaker 1: of the early stressors was I talked down to her 316 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:00,520 Speaker 1: and I talked abrasively to her. And I never knew 317 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,239 Speaker 1: that part of him because as a husband, he was 318 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,159 Speaker 1: he was great, Like it was fine, but then that 319 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: kind of that work self displayed. Well, Melanie and I 320 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 1: talked to each other like that all the time his 321 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,560 Speaker 1: work life, so like we talked to each other that way, 322 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 1: and then that was kind of how it started. Yeah, 323 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: I know, I can kind of relate to on that thing, 324 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:22,959 Speaker 1: because like one of our big fights that we got 325 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: into in Canada was he brought up a work idea. 326 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 1: And when we talk work, I'm he's I don't remember 327 00:18:32,560 --> 00:18:34,440 Speaker 1: him as my husband or my friend. I go into 328 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: business mode, I go into Chris Jenner. I'm like, well, 329 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 1: I don't know, like I think, like, you know, we 330 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: should only do this many amounts and like and I 331 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: just go and I don't think about feelings. I'm nice, 332 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: but I just like I'm very direct with my like 333 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: my words. And he takes it as because he'll get 334 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 1: upset if I say, like, hey, where are you going? 335 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 1: If I don't put like where are you going babe, 336 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,760 Speaker 1: like a softer tone or even though I mean no 337 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:59,160 Speaker 1: malicious nous or what are you doing? I'm doing work? 338 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: Well what kind of work? But like he gets so 339 00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: like annoyed. So it's like I have to always like 340 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: sugarcoat it a little bit. And when I'm talking about work. 341 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 1: It's very hard for me to sugarcoat work. And so 342 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: it was something where it's like I have to like 343 00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: remember in those conversations, like, oh, I'm yes, he's still 344 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,639 Speaker 1: my work partner, but he's also my husband. I need 345 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: to be a little softer with like my my tone, 346 00:19:20,440 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: I guess, and I have to be like I have 347 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: to throw in a baby here, like a baby, a 348 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: little baby, little honey. So I feel that, and I 349 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,439 Speaker 1: feel like we've had that issue before in in that 350 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,880 Speaker 1: sometimes like a lot of the ideas for silly videos 351 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,880 Speaker 1: will come out of my head and then pen does 352 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: the magic and goes into the magic song room and 353 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:44,719 Speaker 1: make a song about it or something like that. But 354 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: sometimes I'll say stuff and he's just not listening, and 355 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,439 Speaker 1: then when another person says it, it's a brilliant idea, 356 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: so it's that same. And then or I'll have an 357 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 1: idea and we call it like duck hunting or whatever, 358 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,960 Speaker 1: what a clay pigeon or whatever you like, and just 359 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: shoot it out of the sky. And so I'll have 360 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 1: I'll have an idea and he'll just do the same thing. 361 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: But we had we actually wrote about it in the 362 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 1: book one thing. I put it like this big scary 363 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 1: idea that I wanted to, like we wrote about in 364 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 1: the book. Because I had this big scary idea, I 365 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: felt like, we should write a Broadway musical. By the way, 366 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: it takes like twenty years to get a musical on Broadway. 367 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: It is the most like scariest, weirdest thing ever. Right, 368 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 1: And so you say that loud, and you say it 369 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: to your partner and then so his his his business 370 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: hat goes on right just like you were talking. And 371 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 1: his response was, is that the best use of your time? 372 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 1: And I was like, now, I didn't say that mean now, 373 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:48,480 Speaker 1: I would just be like, I just think there's I 374 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't say like, because that's that's what I would love 375 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,160 Speaker 1: to say. But I've learned, like, and so I'm better 376 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: than pen he learned. And then I didn't handle it 377 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: well because I got out of a moving car and 378 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 1: walked home. Um, and so I didn't handle that well. 379 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,400 Speaker 1: But literally, like we took that fight to our counselor 380 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: and like we we talked about that way. So we've 381 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,880 Speaker 1: both learned a lot. We learned a lot from counseling, 382 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 1: We learned a lot from writing this book. So, yeah, 383 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 1: being married, have you ever had something where you're just like, 384 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: I just don't know if like I can continue on 385 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: this journey where it's just it's it's just too hard, 386 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:29,600 Speaker 1: or it's just there's you just don't cease anything changing 387 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: and you feel like you're just like beating your head 388 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: up against the wall. Or is that just normal marriage 389 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: feelings and thoughts. I've had those micro feelings, um, And 390 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: by that, I mean like, while I'm in the thick 391 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 1: of an argument where I realized that I'm just not 392 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: getting anywhere and we're going in the same space. There's 393 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: this sort of grief and hopelessness that comes with that, 394 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: And I'm I feel very lucky to say that it's 395 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: never lasted more than a few moments, um, but I 396 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: know that that does happen. Yeah, And my my parents 397 00:22:03,800 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 1: got divorced, and they were they were separated and back 398 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 1: together and separating back together before they got divorced, like 399 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: my entire childhood. So I learned. And one of the 400 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: things we we learned about each other's like our fighting 401 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 1: styles and mine was what I saw modeled right, which 402 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: was you just leave. So when Penn said, is that 403 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: the best use super time which is not what he meant, 404 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,719 Speaker 1: and it just came out really abrasively instead of engaging. 405 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: I literally got out of a moving car and left. 406 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: And so the beginning and up until we went to therapy, 407 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:42,560 Speaker 1: my instinct was, he says something that I don't agree with, 408 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,880 Speaker 1: I feel I feel belittled, I feel stupid, and I leave. 409 00:22:47,440 --> 00:22:50,639 Speaker 1: And so that is my instinct. So my instinct is 410 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: to leave, and it works on me because my biggest 411 00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: fear and my the thing that hurts me the most 412 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 1: is being alone or or more simply just people not 413 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:01,240 Speaker 1: liking me, like I'm one of those guys that needs 414 00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: everybody to like him. I'm sorry, I'm just gonna call 415 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,239 Speaker 1: it like it is, and and so so you know, 416 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: that's that's where some of the hopelessness comes from. And 417 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 1: what we're learning through a lot of this is I 418 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: still believe that was not the best use of her time. 419 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: I'll take that she was doing like a billion things. 420 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: We can talk about this now because we've deescalated from 421 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 1: the fight. She even admits she like had she had 422 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 1: taken on a lot of things, and the inside in 423 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: my head was like, oh my god, she's taking on 424 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,360 Speaker 1: something else. We can't do any more of this. I'm 425 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: not getting asleep as it is. We're doing a thousand things. 426 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 1: But you should never answer a question that way, in 427 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: a demeaning way, and project back on that person that's 428 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: invalidating their feelings. You should say back, I hear you, 429 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,639 Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying. Here's what I feel. I 430 00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: didn't do any of those things. I just I just 431 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:53,879 Speaker 1: kind of, you know, put the shotgun out and shot 432 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: it down. So if I could have gotten my opinion across, 433 00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: and we would have been fine if I just found 434 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: the right way to come. But to answer your question, like, 435 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,959 Speaker 1: are were there moments? There were There's never been a 436 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: moment personally, and I think Kendall say the same, where 437 00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: we were on the brink of not making it. But 438 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 1: are there moments and flashes where all of my personal 439 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 1: history comes up and I think, you know what, I'm 440 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: packing the kids up and I'm heading out of town. 441 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: Like I've had plenty of those moments because that's my instinct. 442 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: So we've learned, Like, so now I have to do 443 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: the work and sit in my butt in the chair 444 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,440 Speaker 1: and take the rest, and I have to sit there 445 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: and I have to engage because that's what's hard for me. 446 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: And then his like he used to just like i'm sorry, 447 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, anything, to just de escalate anything. 448 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: It's so hard. So now he has to sit his 449 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,359 Speaker 1: butt in the chair and say no, that hurt my feelings. 450 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,119 Speaker 1: Like when you left me, that hurt my feelings. So 451 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,200 Speaker 1: we have to show up in different ways. But it 452 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: was all about learning how our fighting styles. How about 453 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: when it came to working together. Obviously you guys do 454 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 1: a million things together, but when it came to the 455 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,640 Speaker 1: book and you guys are sitting down starting, it's like, okay, 456 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 1: we're going to write a book. Let's do this. How 457 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: was that process for you and with your working styles? 458 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:07,959 Speaker 1: Because I know for us we worked completely different, So 459 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 1: it was a challenge to figure out that kind of dance. Right, 460 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: how is that for you guys? Well, Kim was already 461 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: very up for self help, self improvement, self advancement. I've 462 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,440 Speaker 1: read every book. I've read every Yeah, I've read them all. 463 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: I don't I do not read those books. I'm sorry, 464 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,400 Speaker 1: Like I had to read them a ton during research 465 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: for this book. But I mean we had to get 466 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,640 Speaker 1: over the initial hump, which was. I felt like everything 467 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: was pretty good. I felt like we were doing okay, 468 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 1: like we were getting passing grades. Kim thought that we 469 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 1: could be better. I thought that that meant that she 470 00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:44,320 Speaker 1: was saying that she didn't like our marriage and that 471 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: this whole thing was a failure. Um, she had to 472 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: reassure me of that. And then really we had to 473 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,479 Speaker 1: kind of find a really trusted person to come in 474 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: and start talking to us. The guy who helped write 475 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: the book with us. He's our church pastor, but he's 476 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: also been a friend of mine for twenty years and 477 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: he I mean, the process became very easy when he 478 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: came in because he broke it down for me two 479 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,600 Speaker 1: data points and ones and zeros and things that you 480 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:12,360 Speaker 1: can and things that you can't do and what goes 481 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 1: on in your brain the way that I can understand it. Yeah, 482 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: And so let's be clear, he's the person that he 483 00:26:17,920 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: specializes in like marriage counseling, a marriage care and he's 484 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 1: the person that we went to. So we basically took 485 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,280 Speaker 1: the ten fights and it worked best with like the 486 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 1: ten fights. And we think everybody has which is like 487 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: we're having enough sex. I do everything, you do nothing, 488 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 1: you're spending too much money like those those ten fight topics. 489 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: And then we it became simpler. That's all we do about. 490 00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: It became simpler when we figured out, like I'm going 491 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: to write my part, he writes his part, and then 492 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 1: an editor kind of cut cuts and past they reached it, 493 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: and then Christopher says stuff, and then we do research. Yeah, 494 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: and then we did a bunch of research. I'm so 495 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: excited to read this. It's I feel like it's just 496 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: comfortable right into place for us. Yeah, too, we had 497 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 1: fun and in audible you'll like that one too. I 498 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 1: feel like it's similar where we have because we wrote 499 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: a book as well where we kind of share both 500 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: of our sides, and you know, I feel like it's 501 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 1: it's it's just it's good that these books are coming 502 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,440 Speaker 1: out because I like when people couples share their experiences 503 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,640 Speaker 1: from both sides, because it's both sides need to be heard. 504 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,160 Speaker 1: And I think that's where and even relationships, why we 505 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 1: escalate is because we're just wanting to be heard, you know, 506 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,199 Speaker 1: and from wanting to be heard, we just escalate to 507 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: the you know, the worst degree. That's right, And I 508 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: wonder I'm curious if you guys had a similar response 509 00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: that I did. Maybe one of you did or both 510 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 1: of you did. I uh, we're public figures were on 511 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: the internet all the time we wrote the book. Um, 512 00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: we put the pen down to paper and it felt okay, 513 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:52,919 Speaker 1: and then I had to read the audible version of 514 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: it and some of the stuff was really deep. It 515 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:59,040 Speaker 1: was like, I was so uncomfortable. The first time I 516 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 1: had to say that was like you're reading a diary entreat. 517 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: I'm like this about our sex life and now people, 518 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: my mom's going to hear this. Once I got over it, 519 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 1: it was tough. The first time, it was crazy. It 520 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: was Yeah, we had the at least I know, I 521 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: had the same experience where we're sitting there in the 522 00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: studio kind of like this and we're sitting there reading 523 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: it like back and forth our parts, and I'll just 524 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: kind of step back, like do we are we sure 525 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,679 Speaker 1: we really want to do this? Like the stuff that 526 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: we're saying right now, like is this going to be 527 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,680 Speaker 1: received the way we hope it's going to be received? 528 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,360 Speaker 1: Because it's I mean, but it's good that, like Jenna say, 529 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: it's like so many books before you know, some of these, 530 00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: like you guys are putting out. It's from one person 531 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: on who's a clinical professional, who you know, acts like 532 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 1: they have it all figured out and this is the 533 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: steps to do it. But then you know they haven't 534 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: gone through them themselves maybe, And so to hear from 535 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: somebody like you, guys, I know, for us, it's gonna 536 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: be refreshing to hear y'all's words, be like, man, we're 537 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: not alone either, yeah, And don't you feel like you know, 538 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: when you're dating somebody, like you can talk to your 539 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: girlfriends about like, oh, we got in a fight and 540 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 1: every you know, and you can talk about that, But 541 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: as soon as you're married, there's this like veil of secrecy, 542 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,200 Speaker 1: like we no longer talk about our relationships with people really. 543 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: And then it was only when we kind of told 544 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: our circle of friends we were doing the research for 545 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: this book and we were writing this book that people 546 00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: can fide in us about a lot of the issues 547 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,920 Speaker 1: they were having and they were asking us for advice, 548 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: and I was like, guys, we should be talking about this, 549 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,520 Speaker 1: and let's normalize the fact that no marriage is perfect, 550 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: no relationship is perfect. A good marriage can become a 551 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: great marriage. And really, there are some really easy communication 552 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: hacks that we've put into place. So how can a 553 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: good marriage become a great marriage? I mean it's communication based, 554 00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: at least in our book it is. I mean, fights 555 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: are all about going back and forth. The cliffs notes 556 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 1: of it is. We have these scripts, and we have 557 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:00,960 Speaker 1: these magic words you can say when you're in the 558 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: middle of a of an argument. Could you give us 559 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: right now? Yeah? Sure, um, you just that you kind 560 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: of almost did do when they're tell me more is 561 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: one of the best ones that you can do when 562 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: someone's finished talking, instead of turning it around and disagreeing 563 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: with it, make an effort to try to understand it 564 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: better and say tell me more. So even said when 565 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: I had said, Penn, I think we should read a 566 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:25,440 Speaker 1: Broadway musical. If Penn and said tell me more, and 567 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm really just you know, yearning for creative 568 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: outlet right now, I feel really bogged down with this, 569 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: this this. If you had followed up with tell me 570 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: more about that, if you just let me spiral and 571 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 1: talk that that wasn't even a fight, right, Oh my god, 572 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: that would have helped us so much. When we were 573 00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: in Vancouver because I was overwhelmed with work, like had 574 00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: been filming a movie for you know, three and a 575 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: half weeks, and I was like, Mike, I I'm feeling 576 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 1: like claustrophobic. I don't I don't want to go home yet, 577 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:53,880 Speaker 1: like I feel like I haven't had it. I need 578 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:55,840 Speaker 1: to have fun. I need to decompress before I go 579 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: back home to Nashville. And I'm back in mom work mode. 580 00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 1: And he's like, if you would have said tell me more, 581 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,880 Speaker 1: I would have I would have felt so heard and 582 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: just like you care. And if I would have said 583 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 1: tell me more about your gun business you wanted to 584 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: do instead of being like that's what you want to 585 00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: do right now? Like yeah, like are you trying? It's 586 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 1: the best easy of your time, said Penn, But really, 587 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: what Jenna want. I'm gonna start hearing Penn's voice now 588 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: every time, like I know you want to say that 589 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: Pen's voice, but also simple to say, like tell me more, 590 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 1: because you don't have to agree with it, understand it, 591 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: but you to be like I would love to hear 592 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 1: like tell me more, man, I'm interested, and then repeat 593 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: back what what he's saying. It's like, okay, so what 594 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,719 Speaker 1: I hear you say is you're really interested in starting 595 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,480 Speaker 1: this business, Okay, and then so you just like repeat 596 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:52,120 Speaker 1: back and it doesn't commit you to an answer. But 597 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: I think you had pointed this out in the beginning, 598 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: is that we are all here in this partnership just 599 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,520 Speaker 1: to be seen. And my job in this part ownership 600 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:02,720 Speaker 1: is just to be a witness to his life story. 601 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: My job is to be his pr person. My job 602 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: is to be his hype man. Right. He does not 603 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: complete me, I do not complete him. But we are partners. 604 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: We are jumping off this cliff together and holding hands. 605 00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: And if we can't show up for each other in 606 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: that way and he can't see me, and if I 607 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: can't really see him, and what are we doing? Right? 608 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: And so that's why our marriage was fine. Our marriage 609 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: was fine. We did carpool, we would get in a fight, 610 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 1: we would laugh at a TV show, we'd have sex. 611 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: We were and it was fine. But like to really 612 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 1: have those great those great moments of connection, um, those 613 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: really just weren't even happening. So that's why I just 614 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: when I went that I'm a very um, I just 615 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: recently learned I'm in any Graham type one and that 616 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: means I'm a perfectionists allegedly. I know, right, I'm not. 617 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 1: I'm not a type plan. I'm a I'm a what 618 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 1: a positives? My ever a Blone Retriever job would be, 619 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: I'm a futuristic positives. He's like a messy, happy person. 620 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,520 Speaker 1: And so when I went into this counseling, I had 621 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,880 Speaker 1: a notebook. I'm like, just tell me exactly what to say. 622 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: Tell me what to say when he comes at me 623 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: with this, or tell me what to say when I'm 624 00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: feeling because I have anxiety and depression, like when I'm 625 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 1: spiraling and he doesn't understand me. That tell me the 626 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: words to say. And then that's exactly just like what 627 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,200 Speaker 1: we wrote in our book at the end of the 628 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 1: chapters were like, shortcut, just say this because there are 629 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: times when I'm like, you're saying claustrophobic. That's what anxiety 630 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: feels like to me. It feels like somebody standing on 631 00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: my chest and I have trouble breathing. And how do 632 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:40,800 Speaker 1: I explain that to somebody who's like a Golden Retriever, right, 633 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: Like he's experience that in his whole life. But then 634 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 1: but through this he's been able to see and hear 635 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: me and knows now exactly what I need in those moments, 636 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: and then you know, and then I can help him 637 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: through his I love tell me more where I'm definitely 638 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: gonna take that. Do it. I've got some more for 639 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: you if you want to. Here's another one. If you 640 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: want something and this includes sex, this includes anything. If 641 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: you want something, tell the person what you want and 642 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: and say because after whatever it is that you want, 643 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 1: say because it's like scientifically proven if you give a 644 00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,440 Speaker 1: reason for what you want, you're more likely to. Yeah. 645 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 1: The other the other thing you can do to go 646 00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,399 Speaker 1: even further is Kim can say why, and you can 647 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,479 Speaker 1: say because it can and then she can say why 648 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,359 Speaker 1: and you can say because again and after the third 649 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,520 Speaker 1: because you're really getting to the heart of the matter 650 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: at that point. Yeah, like I really I've been working 651 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,239 Speaker 1: so hard and this movie, I really feel the need 652 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: to relax and online. But we did that and there 653 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 1: was a no. Well, and then he's well, and you said, 654 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: because I feel like we need to connect before we 655 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: just jump back into our lives as parents, as working people, 656 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 1: and then he said no, and then what happens and 657 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,240 Speaker 1: then and then you say I and feel I feel 658 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: because you keep going this until you understand each other. 659 00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,239 Speaker 1: That one might be a little harder because I feel 660 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: like I am semi direct with my words better. I 661 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: used to be super passive, and I feel like now 662 00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:22,760 Speaker 1: I'm more on train or on track of being direct. Yeah. 663 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: It's kind of a motto in our marriage is like 664 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,960 Speaker 1: mature people ask for what they want. I used to 665 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 1: just like he's like, what do you want for lunch? 666 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: And like I don't care, just get me whatever? Like no, 667 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:35,440 Speaker 1: just mature people, Like, yeah, mature people need more pen. 668 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: There's a bunch, um there is h This one takes 669 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: a little bit of explaining. Um, we have a we 670 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 1: have a code that we say called secret contract and 671 00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: it basically means, okay, so you guys have secret contracts. 672 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,439 Speaker 1: If you've been married, if you've been together for a week, 673 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: you start building these things. They're unspoken things that you 674 00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:59,839 Speaker 1: do that you just do. Kim just changes the toilet paper, 675 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 1: always changed. She does the cooking, I do the dishes. 676 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: She wakes the kids up, I take him to school 677 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: because she doesn't want to put a brawl on. Um 678 00:36:09,680 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 1: I uh yeah, I put the dogs to sleep, she 679 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,239 Speaker 1: lets me sleep in. Most of these are really good contracts, 680 00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: but every once in a while, there's something that you 681 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: have been kind of tasked with doing that deep down 682 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,359 Speaker 1: you hate, and that will bubble up into in Kim's case, 683 00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:30,320 Speaker 1: like a giant um week long strike against toilet paper 684 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,800 Speaker 1: that she took to Instagram on and like publicly shamed 685 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: her husband about not changing for a week. We there 686 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,880 Speaker 1: was no toilet paper in the bathroom and he continued 687 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:39,879 Speaker 1: to use it. No, no, because there was a clean 688 00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 1: X box underneath the sink, and clean X if you like, 689 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:44,399 Speaker 1: let it sit in the toilet for a little while. 690 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,280 Speaker 1: It won't call it the toilet, and it's a hundred 691 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: times softer and better than toilet. Ever, I'm just saying 692 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 1: that out loud if some might call your genius. But 693 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: then it's so secret. Contracts were great if they work 694 00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 1: for you, right, But I was very presentable because I 695 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,000 Speaker 1: did all the house where his secret contract the role 696 00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:04,520 Speaker 1: he plays, he has the Golden retreat for in our marriage. Right, 697 00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 1: So he's the he's the hype man, he's the cheerleader, 698 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 1: he's the fun guy. But what happens when he goes 699 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 1: through some stuff and he needs to be sad, Like 700 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: he always feels like he has to be happy, and 701 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: so I just if I know he's going through stuff, 702 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: like he's gone through some stuff with his parents, I'll 703 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 1: just say a secret contract. I got this. You can 704 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 1: be sad now I can. I got this. And if 705 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 1: kims head anxiety and she's been up all night, she'll she'll, 706 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,439 Speaker 1: you know, she'll kind of rub my shoulder at about 707 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,320 Speaker 1: seven o'clock and say, secret contract, I need you to 708 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,720 Speaker 1: take the kids. And it's it's one of those situations 709 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 1: where you know, as soon as she says that I 710 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: do this all the time, it's okay, but for now 711 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 1: I'd like to change it. Um so's Yeah, it's just 712 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: kind of like the roles like we've talked about. Yeah, 713 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 1: it's just and we defined talk about we never had 714 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:52,680 Speaker 1: the discussion that I was always going to be the 715 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: person who would change the toilet paper. I never already 716 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,759 Speaker 1: decided that. It was just it just happened, you know. 717 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:00,560 Speaker 1: I think it's I think that's a really important one, 718 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:03,839 Speaker 1: because you start to have resentment if you if those 719 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 1: roles aren't if it's actually something you don't want to 720 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: be doing. It's like laundry for her, she always just 721 00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: kind of happens to do it. Like the kids laundry, 722 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,960 Speaker 1: and we never decided, but I think that's the one 723 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:19,359 Speaker 1: you hold resentment. It's just acknowledgement sometimes, you know, just 724 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 1: the I'm obviously my mom. I'm it's fine, it's part 725 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,359 Speaker 1: of one of my duties. But it's like, you know, 726 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,720 Speaker 1: we usually we discuss like you're the cook, I'm the cleaner. 727 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: You know, it's just the right I mean, you know, 728 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:35,879 Speaker 1: really what we don't want to discuss. It just kind 729 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 1: of well like we do when am I going to cook? 730 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,719 Speaker 1: I don't cook right because I'm a better cook and 731 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: it works. So that's a super contract that works, right. Yeah, 732 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: you keep people fed and then you clean and then yeah, um, 733 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,279 Speaker 1: where can our listeners find all of this stuff? Like 734 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,319 Speaker 1: you guys on Instagram? Obviously? The book are on the 735 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:04,680 Speaker 1: on the social media's we are the Holderness family, um 736 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: and kind likes to say it's like wilderness but with 737 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,399 Speaker 1: a hoe. So I see you guys, Oh cute follow back, 738 00:39:11,920 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 1: I love you, um. And then this is Everybody Fights 739 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 1: book dot com and yeah, um, I'm super excited to 740 00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:23,399 Speaker 1: deep dive right now into your Instagram because the first 741 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,319 Speaker 1: thing I see is how I really feel. I'm like, oh, 742 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 1: I cannot wait. Um, it's basically me because I'm an 743 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: introvert to quarantine. Actually wasn't terrible for me, and I 744 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,320 Speaker 1: just want to spit in my pajamas all day long. Um, 745 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:39,759 Speaker 1: it's basically how I really feel. We're getting vaccinated. I'm like, 746 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 1: I have to go out in public. I'm kind of 747 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,640 Speaker 1: cool just staying here, guys, because you guys are in rally, right, Yeah, okay, Well, 748 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,799 Speaker 1: whenever you guys come to Nashville, let us know. We 749 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 1: love Nashville. Isn't that where the book people are. Yeah, 750 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot of publishing in Nashville. Right, So come 751 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 1: and we're open. Come on, We're gonna vaccinated soon. Hang on, almost, 752 00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,520 Speaker 1: I have to ask this question. So you were in Vancouver. 753 00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,480 Speaker 1: I'm putting some pieces together. You were in Vancouver shooting 754 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 1: over the winter. That's usually like Hallmark movies, right, and 755 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,359 Speaker 1: it's even better. We so we did like a bunch 756 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: of parodies of Hallmark and Lifetime Christmas movies in December. Yes, 757 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 1: and the reasons here's the reason why we so like 758 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,200 Speaker 1: quarantine and COVID. Particularly on my girls, they got really 759 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: bummed out when Christmas time came around, and so they 760 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: binge watched all these amazing movies. Sorry, amazing Christmas. I 761 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:45,239 Speaker 1: love them. Amazing plots. I want to stories. I don't 762 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 1: want to be surprised. I want to know exactly how 763 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:53,080 Speaker 1: it's going to end. Beautiful girl meets handsome guy. Yeah yeah, 764 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: big city girl. There's a festival in her home. There's 765 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: a festival where there's a tree lighting. Is what I 766 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:06,360 Speaker 1: wanted in all twenty seven the same plot twist me 767 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,640 Speaker 1: I don't make don't make it a murder mystery. None 768 00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,719 Speaker 1: of that actually, so another one of the ideas I 769 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 1: threw out. I'm like, I want to write one of those, 770 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:19,560 Speaker 1: like I don't have so please please do. But everything 771 00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 1: I'm right, I want to make it a musical obviously, 772 00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: but everything I'm writing is like, there's only one storyline. 773 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: I can't even get creative with it. I have plenty 774 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,439 Speaker 1: of time, like Pen says, you can plenty of time, 775 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,120 Speaker 1: lots of time, lots of free sime. Well, we can't 776 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 1: wait to watch it. Um, you guys are so sweet. 777 00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:39,879 Speaker 1: Seriously come visit. Thank you for coming on wine Down 778 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:42,240 Speaker 1: And I'm excited to read your guys book because everyone 779 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 1: does fight so especially yes Pen Kim thank you guys 780 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,000 Speaker 1: so much. We appreciate your time. We love to have 781 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 1: you guys back on to thank you, Thank you guys. 782 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,640 Speaker 1: You know, as much as we've gotten validated through our 783 00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:09,279 Speaker 1: book and people responding to it and just saying how 784 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,760 Speaker 1: much they appreciate it and can relate, I love talking 785 00:42:11,760 --> 00:42:14,319 Speaker 1: to people like Kim and Penn and just hearing their 786 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: stories being like, man, we're not the only ones, you know, yeah, 787 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:22,560 Speaker 1: and it just it feels it feels good. I mean, 788 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:24,600 Speaker 1: even like when we talk to people like Liza and 789 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 1: having those conversations and reading you know, other books of 790 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,799 Speaker 1: other couples that we look up to that it's like, oh, 791 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,640 Speaker 1: they have crossroads and they have fights and they have arguments, 792 00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,680 Speaker 1: but yet they're still in love and they're still happy 793 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 1: to like, I don't know, I like that. Do we 794 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 1: have any emails? We do have some emails. Interesting, all right, 795 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 1: This is from Alexandra. My best friend's husband has become 796 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,440 Speaker 1: an alcoholic and isn't asked to her more and more frequently. 797 00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 1: They have a year and a half old son, and 798 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 1: she has settled down stopped drinking during pregnancy, and he didn't. Unfortunately, 799 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 1: his problem seems to be getting worse. Oh, he's not 800 00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:03,800 Speaker 1: physically abusive. I fear from my friend and my godson 801 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,000 Speaker 1: that he might become that. Their parents all want her 802 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:07,919 Speaker 1: to leave him and get a divorce. She's not ready 803 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 1: to make that decision yet. As a friend, how do 804 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,600 Speaker 1: I support her? And what advice can I give her? 805 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,359 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess this kind of goes with what 806 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:24,960 Speaker 1: we've been talking about, is there's relationships that can work, 807 00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:27,319 Speaker 1: and then there's the relationships where someone is just an 808 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:34,280 Speaker 1: active addiction and that person is wanting and that person 809 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:39,160 Speaker 1: is wanting to not believe it. Maybe they're an active 810 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:43,760 Speaker 1: addiction and fight through it, but it's just that's so 811 00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:49,000 Speaker 1: hard because you're not going to get anywhere if like 812 00:43:49,040 --> 00:43:52,120 Speaker 1: if if you were like acting out in an active addiction, 813 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:56,400 Speaker 1: it's like you can't, I can't hold all those pieces together, 814 00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:00,759 Speaker 1: Like that'd be impossible. So to support her or I 815 00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:05,160 Speaker 1: would just say that, I mean, she's gonna want to try, 816 00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:10,799 Speaker 1: but don't isolate her, but also don't continue to tell 817 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: her that she'd be okay alone. Yeah, I would say, 818 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,680 Speaker 1: you know, in situations like this, no one from the 819 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,239 Speaker 1: outside is going to be able to make the decision 820 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: for your friend. So your job as a friend and 821 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:31,600 Speaker 1: as godmother to her son is to just ask her 822 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: questions so she gets to the verdict herself, right, So 823 00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:39,400 Speaker 1: ask her why, like, what are your reasons for staying? 824 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,520 Speaker 1: What are your fears around it? What are your fears 825 00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:45,560 Speaker 1: about leaving? And have those conversations and allow her to 826 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:47,880 Speaker 1: talk through it and have the dialogue with you and 827 00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,920 Speaker 1: for her to realize, Man, the only reasons I am 828 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:55,480 Speaker 1: starting staying are X and Y. But the reasons you 829 00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:59,320 Speaker 1: know I should leave our you know, A through Z. 830 00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,600 Speaker 1: You know, there's a significant more amount of reasons. So 831 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,000 Speaker 1: just allowing them to figure it out themselves as you 832 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:10,439 Speaker 1: kind of help navigate them through these questions and ask 833 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:13,600 Speaker 1: the appropriate questions. Is is my biggest advice for what 834 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:15,040 Speaker 1: for what I would do? And if I had a 835 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 1: friend in that situation, Yeah, and if f thro P 836 00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,239 Speaker 1: is really bad, you know, but then you get D 837 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,359 Speaker 1: through D and G and then oh through you know X. 838 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:27,280 Speaker 1: You know, I was just shooting from hip on that one, guys, 839 00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:30,600 Speaker 1: but you get what I'm saying, Alexandra. Just allow her 840 00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,160 Speaker 1: to figure it out for herself as you guide her. 841 00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,319 Speaker 1: I don't know that because C could really be a 842 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:41,279 Speaker 1: bummer onto the next email. This is from Alyssa. I 843 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,439 Speaker 1: will be twenty seven and April. My husband just turned 844 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,759 Speaker 1: thirty five. I suffer from Pico's PCOS and am lucky 845 00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:51,080 Speaker 1: if I have two periods a year. Because we knew 846 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:52,919 Speaker 1: this would be difficult for us, we started to try 847 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:55,240 Speaker 1: to get pregnant about a month after we were married. 848 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,240 Speaker 1: We got pregnant off the bat. Then I'm miscarried around 849 00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 1: six weeks. Since then, we have not been able to 850 00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,280 Speaker 1: get pregnant. We started going to a chain of doctors 851 00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,200 Speaker 1: specialist medications, and I'm afraid we're getting to the point 852 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:09,520 Speaker 1: of I U I and I VF. I feel like 853 00:46:09,560 --> 00:46:12,319 Speaker 1: my husband isn't as emotional about this as I am. 854 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 1: I know he wants children. He just says to trust 855 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,640 Speaker 1: in God and enjoy the time we have together before 856 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,600 Speaker 1: children come into the mix. I love that thought process, 857 00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:22,080 Speaker 1: but I still get sad with bad news. So I 858 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,600 Speaker 1: wanted to ask Mike, what were your thoughts and feelings 859 00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:29,799 Speaker 1: as you and Jana were going through treatment. You know, 860 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:35,600 Speaker 1: it's tough because as a as a guy, you know, 861 00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:40,760 Speaker 1: we have our own feelings, but also you know our 862 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:45,000 Speaker 1: feelings only go to a certain depth. Because we don't 863 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:52,399 Speaker 1: have as much of the um feeling of responsibility as 864 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,000 Speaker 1: the female does. So I don't want to say that 865 00:46:56,040 --> 00:46:58,680 Speaker 1: our feelings are the same as y'all's, because they're not 866 00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:03,920 Speaker 1: at all. And so when Jana was going through that stuff, 867 00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:07,080 Speaker 1: all I could do, and what I thought my job 868 00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,920 Speaker 1: was was to just be as positive as I could 869 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:17,759 Speaker 1: without minimizing what she was feeling or the situation. So 870 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,520 Speaker 1: it's great for your for your husband to stay positive, 871 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,560 Speaker 1: but he also needs to allow the space for sadness 872 00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:27,920 Speaker 1: and for you to feel that because if he's just like, 873 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:29,960 Speaker 1: don't worry, it's in God's hands and now you don't worry, 874 00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:31,719 Speaker 1: it's gonna happen. Let's just enjoy the time together. If 875 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:36,920 Speaker 1: it's that's good. But if it's that continuously, then he's 876 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:39,560 Speaker 1: not really giving you the space to have the feelings 877 00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,480 Speaker 1: that you need to express. And that's very important. Just 878 00:47:43,560 --> 00:47:47,399 Speaker 1: from our experience through this UM and having done that 879 00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:51,279 Speaker 1: a couple of times, it's very important for for the 880 00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,120 Speaker 1: female to have that space and for the male to 881 00:47:54,239 --> 00:48:03,480 Speaker 1: find that happy dance between optimistic and empathetic. Yeah. Um, well, 882 00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:08,760 Speaker 1: good show, guys, good show. Um, We've got some good stuff. 883 00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,719 Speaker 1: Coming in the books, coming down the pipeline that we're 884 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,399 Speaker 1: really pumped about. So you know, that's what we want 885 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,200 Speaker 1: to do. Give you guys something entertaining to listen to 886 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,400 Speaker 1: and to grow as a person. So I appreciate you 887 00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:19,600 Speaker 1: all listening. La