WEBVTT - Episode 7 – Lost 0:00:02.720 --> 0:00:05.440 So we just have a lot of stuff at home, 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:08.800 and so these are just some examples of bracelets that 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:11.760 we've always had for the kids. The pink and blue 0:00:11.800 --> 0:00:14.840 they say justice for Sarah and Jacob on them, always 0:00:14.880 --> 0:00:15.560 in our hearts. 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:19.159 The first time Beth Carris and I met Troy and 0:00:19.200 --> 0:00:22.599 his wife Stephanie in suburban Maryland, they were covered in 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:27.080 Sarah and Jacob merch hats and shirts and buttons into 0:00:27.120 --> 0:00:28.000 their jackets. 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.000 We have match boxes that we bring to the candle 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:35.600 light vigels that also say a voice for Sarah and Jacob. 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:39.280 And we have flyers, you know, with Sarah and Jacob's 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:42.640 pictures on them, asking for information from the public to 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:44.000 help us in their recovery. 0:00:45.520 --> 0:00:47.239 And can you tell me a little bit about the 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:48.159 candlelight vigils. 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:53.440 They've been held annually and we up until two years ago, 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:56.120 we would hold them in that parking lot of the 0:00:56.160 --> 0:00:58.480 restaurant where everything kind of just started. 0:01:00.280 --> 0:01:03.480 Took Troy on that wild goose chase from daycare to daycare, 0:01:03.880 --> 0:01:06.440 always promising that the next one was where she had 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:10.720 dropped off the kids. After hours of driving, Catherine asked 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:12.520 Troy to stop off at a restaurant, so she could 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:15.080 get a soda, and while he waited in the car, 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:16.400 she took off. 0:01:17.280 --> 0:01:19.039 So we held them in that parking lot up until 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:21.640 two years ago. But they are on September seventh every year, 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:25.800 rain or shine, no matter the weather, because that's the 0:01:25.880 --> 0:01:30.520 day that she took them. So in the last two years, 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:34.880 we've done them at places that Sarah and Jacob used 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:37.080 to like to go. We've kept them a bit more 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:40.640 private and had them at locations that the kids enjoyed 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:41.600 being at. 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:46.440 I've seen this before with the families of missing children, 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:49.760 pictures of a kid frozen in time about to blow 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:52.520 out the candles at a fourth birthday party maybe, and 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:55.960 that picture gets transformed into a million T shirts and 0:01:56.040 --> 0:02:00.120 posters and ball caps, wristbands are made, and hashtags are 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:01.600 created with the. 0:02:01.560 --> 0:02:04.440 Flyers still like if someone happened to see something they 0:02:04.480 --> 0:02:07.320 didn't realize they saw, and as things keep developing it 0:02:07.400 --> 0:02:10.720 rings a bell, then hopefully we'll hear something. 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:11.040 Yea. 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:13.920 Do people ever come up to you when you're wearing 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:15.920 the shirts, when you have any of the sort of 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:18.800 stuff that you've put together on or with you and 0:02:18.919 --> 0:02:22.600 ask what the story is? Yes? Yes, And. 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:28.160 We have people that message the social media that have 0:02:28.320 --> 0:02:30.679 some of the stuff and they say, oh, people were 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:35.280 asking can I get some more, you know, wrisbeyans flyers, 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:38.120 I'd like to hand them out. So the community has 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:41.360 also engaged in trying to, you know, keep their names 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:41.720 out there. 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:45.320 These items are a way to raise awareness, for sure, 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:49.160 but it's also a version of keeping your missing kid alive, 0:02:49.840 --> 0:02:56.040 of not letting anyone forget about them. It's a terrible cliche, 0:02:56.240 --> 0:02:59.880 but in this case it really is true. Sarah and 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:04.200 Jacob disappeared without a trace. There have been no credible 0:03:04.240 --> 0:03:07.120 sightings of the two kids since the night of September seventh, 0:03:07.200 --> 0:03:11.480 twenty fourteen, and their mother, Catherine Hoggle, believed to be 0:03:11.520 --> 0:03:14.240 the last person to see them, has refused to share 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.600 any details of what happened that night, and with the 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:20.680 charges against her now dismissed, Troy is doubtful that she'll 0:03:20.720 --> 0:03:27.320 ever help. Ambiguous loss is a kind of grief without closure. 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:30.840 It means living in a permanent fog of not knowing 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:33.480 what happened to the person you love, where they are. 0:03:34.639 --> 0:03:37.760 Even if Catherine revealed all today, even if the kid's 0:03:37.800 --> 0:03:41.080 bodies were found, no one believes that their father, Troy 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:44.400 would be able to cheerfully move on with his life, 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:48.800 but still it would close one very particular type of wound, 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:53.480 the not knowing, the rational acceptance that the kids are 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:57.400 most likely dead after so many years, but the inability 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:00.800 to completely quiet the tug that theirs still out there, 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.240 still waiting for their dad to pick them up and 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:09.280 bring them home. The loss of Sarah and Jacob, the 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:12.400 lack of answers nine years later, has created a huge 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:15.760 amount of emotional collateral damage, and not just for Troy. 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:19.120 Everyone who comes into contact with this family with this 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:24.479 story seems tainted by it. It's unshakable, and the deep 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:27.600 grief and near obsession the haunting that has become an 0:04:27.720 --> 0:04:31.039 everyday part of life have been shaped by two divergent 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:34.400 ways of looking at this case at what likely happened 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:37.719 to Sarah and Jacob, either staring at the grim Fax 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:42.520 head on or disappearing into a fantasy to avoid just 0:04:42.640 --> 0:04:52.400 how awful the truth really is. I'm Sarah Trelevin and 0:04:52.440 --> 0:04:58.840 this is Unrestorable, an original podcast from Anonymous content and iHeartRadio. 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:15.919 Nice to meet you guys. 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.640 Sarah's and Halifax and I'm in New York City. 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:23.560 Okay, Yeah, thank you again for taking the time. 0:05:25.040 --> 0:05:26.120 You do homicides right. 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:30.159 It took months for Beth and I to get Detective 0:05:30.200 --> 0:05:33.320 Dmitri Ruven to talk to us. He's a homicide detective 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:35.800 with the Montgomery County Police Department, and he took the 0:05:35.880 --> 0:05:39.240 lead on Sarah and Jacob's case, and he wasn't what 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:43.080 I expected. Dmitri has shoulder length, light brown hair with 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:47.039 day's old stubble, a whole hipster Jesus surfer kind of vibe. 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:50.279 Around the same time it became Troy's full time job 0:05:50.360 --> 0:05:54.000 to search for his children, it also became Dmitri Ruven's. 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:57.880 My sergeant at the time. There, I was like, hey, 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:01.440 we just got a call. There's a missing lady with 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:02.400 two of her children. 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:06.520 There was a lot of confusion when Catherine first disappeared 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:09.719 along with the kids. She hadn't been well. It felt 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:12.760 like a rescue effort for a family in disarray. But 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.920 things took a turn when Catherine was found later without 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:20.240 Sarah and Jacob. The police mobilized resources quickly. 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:25.039 We had volunteers and dogs, and we were searching those 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:28.719 five six seven days. We were probably working eighteen twenty 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:36.039 hour days, searches, tips, sidings, and I think I've preceived 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:38.880 like over three hundred tips for months. 0:06:38.920 --> 0:06:42.800 The police searched houses and fields, they used dogs and volunteers. 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:46.880 Dmitri thinks they searched more than thirty thousand acres. They 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:51.960 found nothing, and almost immediately there were indications that something 0:06:52.279 --> 0:06:53.599 really bad had happened. 0:06:55.440 --> 0:07:01.480 She had a conversation right before anybody even knew that 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:02.719 the kids were missing. 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:06.440 Dmitri is talking about a conversation that Catherine had the 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:08.760 morning of September eighth, when Troy thought the kids were 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:09.279 in daycare. 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:13.280 She was at a day program where they helped people 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:18.040 with mental illnesses, and she spoke to somebody and that 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:20.760 person was going to a class and it was like 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:25.880 stress management class. And again, nobody even knows that the 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.160 kids are missing at that time. And she's walking in 0:07:29.160 --> 0:07:32.840 the hallway and that person says, Hey, Katherine, I'm going 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:34.760 to stress management. Do you want to come with me? 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:37.400 And she was like, yeah, I could use some stress 0:07:37.400 --> 0:07:39.960 management because I just and she kind of motions with 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:43.360 that hand. She's like, I just strangled my kids. That 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:47.600 person kind of stops, and then Catherine's kind of stoke 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:49.000 and she goes, I'm just joking. 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:54.240 If it's true that she made this damning admission about 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:57.160 strangling her children, it may be a critical piece of 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:00.360 the state's evidence. This seems to be the only time 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:04.320 that Catherine reference killing her children when asked. She's always 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:07.880 said that they're fine, that they're safe. But that's not 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:09.920 what the police or the FBI believe. 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:14.440 A lot of times with these you know, these kinds 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:16.360 of they call them authoristic. 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:20.680 Mothers, altruistic mothers. Can you explain what that is and 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:23.880 also how Catherine Hobble fits that profile. 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:27.800 It's basically the view that kids as possessions. You know, 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:31.160 a lot they don't view those children as, you know, 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:33.720 like kids and I'm a mom and I love them. 0:08:33.720 --> 0:08:35.880 They kind of view them as possessions that you can 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:40.320 just get rid of. If they're no longer convenience too, 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:42.480 you can just put them in trash, like, which is 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:44.480 what you would do with an object, right, Like, if 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:48.479 you don't need an object anymore, you would just trash it. 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:52.280 And I think it's probably applicable in her case. 0:08:53.720 --> 0:08:56.160 No one but Catherine really knows. 0:08:57.040 --> 0:08:59.640 That could have been a million places she could have 0:08:59.679 --> 0:09:02.680 done it, Like, I think it's very possible that she 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:06.000 could have just you know, buried them. When we first 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:08.680 got it, she had all this dirt under her fingernails, 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:11.400 like it looks like she was in the woods. So 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:14.480 there's still a part of me that thinks, hey, they're 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:18.280 still out there and maybe we just miss them. 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:20.680 The idea that the kids are still out there, dead 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:23.319 or alive serves as both the hope and the haunting 0:09:23.400 --> 0:09:27.120 of this family of one detective who almost a decade later, 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:30.160 still talks with Troy on the phone, and he still 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:32.400 wonders if there's something he could have done differently. 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:37.480 Yeah, there's two kids involved, and you're supposed to, you know, 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:41.760 have some kind of resolution, whether you you know, find them, 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:44.840 find their bodies, at least tell Troy, like what happened. 0:09:44.840 --> 0:09:47.680 But like t this day, we really can't. The case 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:50.000 is still on my desk because I'm like, what if 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:52.679 we get a call tomorrow while I'm still here and 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.240 you know, somebody finds them, like they're building condoms or something, 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:59.000 and somebody finds them in the woods. You know, we 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.560 don't have that many cases that you know that's a 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:04.640 known body case, right, Like, it's pretty rare, and it's 0:10:04.720 --> 0:10:08.680 even more rare when his kids so like, yeah, definitely effective. 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:12.720 Only can you comment a little bit about what you 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:16.800 see in terms of Troy's situation and his sense of 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:18.920 failed justice in this case. 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:23.240 He's a very like goal oriented matter of fact, like 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:26.040 I'm going to find my kids. I think a lot 0:10:26.080 --> 0:10:28.079 of people in his situation would have just kind of 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:31.160 just wanted the world to like stop and just leave 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:33.200 them alone and let him read. But he just he 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:35.240 just goes and he's like one hundred miles an hour 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:38.440 and that's like his mission in life. But yeah, I 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:41.840 mean I do feel like, you know, as a police department, 0:10:42.000 --> 0:10:44.920 as you know, society kind of failed him, like he 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:49.480 never got any closure and she knows what happened and 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:52.640 she's the only person, like we couldn't get her to 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:55.839 tell us whether we didn't ask the right questions then 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:59.600 use the right themes. I don't know. I don't think 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:02.280 that's easy to accept as a dad. And I get it, 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:07.840 you know, I get it. We never gave Troy like 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:11.720 a definite answer like what happened? And I mean he 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:15.000 deserves it, you know, these days kids and we never 0:11:15.040 --> 0:11:19.080 found them, and it sounds like the person that did 0:11:19.080 --> 0:11:20.880 it is going to get away with it. 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:40.840 While Dmitri Ruven still ruminates over the possibility of finding 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:44.680 Sarah and Jacob's bodies, of delivering the worst possible news 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:49.079 to Troy as a form of consolation prize, Catherine's mother, Lindsay, 0:11:49.240 --> 0:11:52.280 has channeled all of this ambiguity into a different kind 0:11:52.280 --> 0:11:55.760 of purpose. She spent the last nine years developing her 0:11:55.800 --> 0:11:58.960 own theories of this case, walking the tightrope of what 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:02.400 it means to support her daughter and advocate for her grandchildren. 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:06.640 Well, I think it very quickly became you know, she's 0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:09.640 got mental illness. You know she probably harmed them, which 0:12:09.679 --> 0:12:12.680 there's no data for that kind of belief. 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:17.080 Lindsay thinks the police jumped to conclusions about Catherine because 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:20.400 she's schizophrenic. They assumed that Catherine must have killed her 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:23.760 kids and declared the case a likely homicide within days. 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:28.920 That they operated under biases about mental illness, convincing themselves 0:12:28.920 --> 0:12:32.200 that Catherine must be dangerous, even though Lindsay says she's 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:36.160 only ever been a danger to herself. What do you 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.040 think happened to the children, What do you think happened 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:39.400 that night? 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:47.000 I think I think she had had somebody help her plan. 0:12:49.160 --> 0:12:51.120 An escape. 0:12:51.320 --> 0:12:56.120 She had been unhappy for a while, and you know, 0:12:56.200 --> 0:13:00.480 a lot of it was just family tension, family dysfunction 0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.440 that happens in every family, but this was a little 0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:06.439 bit different, and I think she saw that as her 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:09.559 only escape is just to disappear with the children. 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:14.640 Lindsey insists that Sarah and Jacob are still out there, 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:18.600 still alive, that Catherine was actually dropping the kids off 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:22.679 with someone for safe keeping, just as Catherine has always insisted. 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:30.920 I mean, the idea that the kids are alive somewhere 0:13:31.679 --> 0:13:39.720 and being sheltered by someone, it's it's challenging to accept because, 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:44.120 you know, because the logistics of it, like what are 0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:48.880 these kids, you know, living under false identities? You know, 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:51.840 who would be willing to take this risk? You know, 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:55.840 all of this stuff. It's just it is really when 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:58.319 you think I understand it, yeah yeah, I mean, so, 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:00.640 so what is the narrative there for you? What makes 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:01.200 sense to you? 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:06.200 I think she was put in touch with the right people, 0:14:06.640 --> 0:14:10.200 and I understand when people are this is just too 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:14.760 wild to believe. And that's the whole story. I mean, 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:17.400 every single twist and turn of the story is just 0:14:18.040 --> 0:14:19.760 you know, you kind of get to the point where 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:31.520 it's like someone could write something so bizarre. It's there 0:14:31.520 --> 0:14:35.320 are things that I know about people she might have 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:39.160 been in touch with that make me believe, yes, this 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:43.320 could happen. It is unfortunate that we've not spent more 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:46.080 time looking for the possibility of that they could be 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:52.560 out there. But you know, I have enough information that 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:57.040 I believe that I'm not going to stop until I 0:14:57.040 --> 0:14:59.320 find out what the answer is. And Catherine knows that. 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:05.200 Lindsay was careful and a bit vague when Beth and 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:07.720 I sat down with her at her townhouse in Gaithersburg, 0:15:08.480 --> 0:15:11.800 but she's elaborated in other conversations and in posts she's 0:15:11.840 --> 0:15:15.200 created online where she poores over the details of Sarah 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:20.040 and Jacob's case. Lindsay believes it's possible that Catherine took 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:22.640 Sarah and Jacob to some kind of underground safehouse for 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.760 women and their children, that Catherine was worried she would 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:28.200 lose custody and wanted to get them away from Troy, 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:31.480 And for the last nine years, Lindsay has been trying 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:34.560 to get Catherine to confirm her theory, to provide her 0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:36.960 with the kind of lead she needs to go out 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:40.800 and find her grandchildren. Jacob, who would now be eleven 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:45.640 years old and Sarah twelve. She also wants the reassurance 0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:49.040 that her daughter isn't capable of doing the really awful 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:50.640 thing that everyone says she did. 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:54.320 Wait, i'd say what happened to Sarah and Jacob, She's like, 0:15:54.360 --> 0:16:00.880 nothing happened to them. And so I've been persistent in 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:05.800 that path with her, and she knows how I stand. 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:10.520 I'm you know, I'm again. I've had advice that I 0:16:10.520 --> 0:16:12.720 should just cut her off, and I said, you know, 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:16.880 I I'm the only one that can approach her from 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:20.760 the standpoint being a mother. You can't sub anybody else in. 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:25.600 And I've seen and know enough of the players in 0:16:25.640 --> 0:16:31.080 this tragedy to know what you've been through or what 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:36.000 she's been through. And so I did what I thought 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:40.160 was the best for her and for the children, because 0:16:40.200 --> 0:16:43.960 I figured if anybody could get the answers out of her, 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.480 I should be able to. And I wasn't. I wasn't 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:50.600 able to get that answer. 0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:57.280 She'd given you a narrative for what happened that night 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:01.120 and morning that Sarah and Jacob disappeared. Has she like 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:04.399 sort of accounted for that time or given you her 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:05.960 her version of events. 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:07.040 Not really. 0:17:09.280 --> 0:17:11.480 At the end of the day, Lindsay says, there are 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:15.600 no bodies, no actual proof that Catherine killed her kids. 0:17:15.960 --> 0:17:20.199 Whatever people think, you know, it's been well, you're just 0:17:20.240 --> 0:17:23.800 a distract grandmother, and like I'm more than a distract grandmother. 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:26.560 I mean, you know, and there are ways you grieve, 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.840 even though I believe they're alive. But my body and 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:34.240 my brain still grieve and I've been through that, and 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:37.919 so I know exactly what people may think. 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:41.080 And it doesn't matter. Do you expect one day that 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.439 you will be reunited with Sarah Jacob? 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.400 You know that's that's difficult, just due to the dynamics 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:53.040 at hand. You know, I may not be right, but 0:17:53.280 --> 0:17:56.639 I feel like I'm the only one right now with 0:17:56.840 --> 0:18:00.600 enough information to say I think they're alive and hopes 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:07.320 that we can put aside some of the pain of 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:14.000 this and bring those three children together. But yeah, I've 0:18:14.040 --> 0:18:14.639 not given up. 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:18.960 Is there anything else you can tell us about the 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.960 leads you're following and where you think Sarah Jacob might be. 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:28.240 There's not anything I'm gonna say on the record. 0:18:28.400 --> 0:18:28.680 No. 0:18:29.520 --> 0:18:35.399 I mean, like I said, I have information, but until 0:18:35.480 --> 0:18:41.159 you can, you know, prove probable cause it's not something 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:44.000 that police are, the authorities or National Center for Missing 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:45.960 Exploited Children can follow up on. 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:50.159 And you alluded before to Catherine having help from someone. 0:18:50.240 --> 0:18:53.080 Do you think that's from someone you know or from 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:56.720 a stranger both? It could be both. 0:18:56.800 --> 0:19:11.600 Yeah, their goal is not to find my children. 0:19:12.359 --> 0:19:16.840 Troy has limited patients for the alternative reality. He says, 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:20.560 both of Catherine's parents live in their inability to accept 0:19:20.560 --> 0:19:24.000 the truth and push Catherine to cooperate with authorities and 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:25.240 admit what she did. 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:26.960 They don't care about my children. 0:19:27.320 --> 0:19:31.280 They care about painting their white big offense and coddling 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:32.840 their little monster or whatever. 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:33.399 I don't know know. 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:38.440 For Detective Dmitri Ruven too, Lindsay's wishful thinking doesn't really 0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:39.000 add up. 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:42.240 So yeah, I mean, of course she's a mom and 0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:44.919 she has to, Like I don't know, I don't know 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:46.879 how I would feel that, like my kids charged with 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.040 something like that, of course I would hold out hope. 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:52.720 But like to me, it's just not logical. I mean, 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:56.240 she's been sitting in a mental institution, she was getting 0:19:56.240 --> 0:20:00.520 ready to be prosecuted for double murder. Right, kids are 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:04.359 somewhere with a friend whoever they are you don't even 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:07.840 have to, like Graham to port, just have a picture 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:09.880 of them and then the charges that dismissed. 0:20:10.720 --> 0:20:12.240 I was going to ask, have you seen this in 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:16.320 other cases with family members where there's this real struggle 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:17.880 to grapple with what's in front of them. 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:22.440 Of course happens all the time, especially with moms. Happens 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:27.880 all the time, with murderers, with rapists, you know, happens 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:34.760 all the time. Troy and maybe lindsay they don't have 0:20:34.840 --> 0:20:37.280 to be logical about it, like we can stay back 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:39.840 and be logical, But for them, I think it's not 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:40.720 a logical thing. 0:20:54.240 --> 0:20:57.000 Troy has tried his best to live in reality. He 0:20:57.119 --> 0:20:59.639 spent nine years mired in the truth of what likely 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:03.399 happen into his kids, observing every piece of bad news, 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:07.120 every failed lead, like having one bucket of cold water 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:12.679 after another dumped over his head. When the kids first disappeared, 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:16.560 Troy didn't go to work for six months. He barely slept. 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:19.199 He spent all of his days and most of his 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:23.280 nights looking for Sarah and Jacob, driving around and handing 0:21:23.320 --> 0:21:27.080 out flyers. He went on TV news programs and announced 0:21:27.080 --> 0:21:29.960 that he kept his door unlocked in case anyone wanted 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:35.919 to drop off his kids, no questions asked. But months 0:21:35.960 --> 0:21:40.359 passed and Sarah and Jacob didn't come home. Troy still 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:42.639 had another kid to raise, and at some point he 0:21:42.760 --> 0:21:45.439 had to go back to work find a way to 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:49.199 move on but without forgetting, and he found help to 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:49.520 do that. 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:54.320 I was new to the area, so I was looking 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:58.159 for I just had one child, she was getting older, 0:21:58.280 --> 0:21:59.760 and I was like, I need some probably need some 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:04.720 ad friends. So I think that we initially met online, 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:08.200 but then he was down close to the area where 0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:12.400 I worked at and ended up meeting up in person 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:16.880 there and we just kind of, I don't know, we 0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:17.760 just sort of clicked. 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:23.399 Troy's wife, Stephanie, is slim and tall, with glasses, and 0:22:23.440 --> 0:22:26.120 she typically wears her brown hair up in a ponytail. 0:22:26.520 --> 0:22:28.800 She's a nurse in her forties, and she both gives 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:32.439 off a no nonsense vibe and has a discernible nervous energy. 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:36.560 She met Troy at the oddest time, what would seem 0:22:36.640 --> 0:22:39.480 like the worst time. It was just six months after 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:40.879 Sarah and Jacob were taken. 0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:44.439 I think the first time we met we went to 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:48.720 the mall, and I believe we were looking for shoes 0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:53.240 for one of his nephews, and I remember him kind 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:56.000 of being flirtatious and kind of being shocked by that, 0:22:57.520 --> 0:22:59.359 just kind of like we were teenagers almost. We were 0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:01.040 like in a shoe star were in the mall and 0:23:01.640 --> 0:23:03.280 it was, yeah, is this. 0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:06.120 Your signature move taking women to shoe stores? 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:07.000 No? 0:23:07.000 --> 0:23:10.879 No, my nephew. He's what like six eight or something. 0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:14.639 He wears like a size whatever, like fifteen or seventeen something, 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:17.320 So he was having trouble finding like there was some 0:23:17.359 --> 0:23:20.720 shoes he wanted for basketball, and oh, I wanted to 0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:21.040 get him. 0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:27.760 When is the first time that Troy tells you about 0:23:27.760 --> 0:23:28.480 Sarah and Jacob? 0:23:29.720 --> 0:23:30.199 We were I. 0:23:30.200 --> 0:23:31.879 Don't remember exactly when it was, but we were on 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:34.719 the phone one night and he just kind of stopped 0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:38.359 me and he said, I just have to tell you 0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:40.320 something before we continue on. 0:23:41.480 --> 0:23:44.480 And I remember going, oh, my god, I mean. 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:48.040 We're older were and just the way he said it, 0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:50.560 I just I couldn't imagine what it could have been. 0:23:51.920 --> 0:23:54.080 And he told me that his two kids were missing, 0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:58.080 and honestly, I don't think that I believed him. I 0:23:58.119 --> 0:24:01.520 didn't know him very well, and people say a lot 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:03.239 of things. I mean, I don't know who would say that, 0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:05.640 but I was just maybe it was the shock of it. 0:24:06.280 --> 0:24:08.320 I didn't know the story. I had never seen it 0:24:08.359 --> 0:24:11.439 on the news. I didn't know anything of it. So 0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:13.639