1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: So we just have a lot of stuff at home, 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,800 Speaker 1: and so these are just some examples of bracelets that 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,760 Speaker 1: we've always had for the kids. The pink and blue 4 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: they say justice for Sarah and Jacob on them, always 5 00:00:14,880 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: in our hearts. 6 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,159 Speaker 2: The first time Beth Carris and I met Troy and 7 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 2: his wife Stephanie in suburban Maryland, they were covered in 8 00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:27,080 Speaker 2: Sarah and Jacob merch hats and shirts and buttons into 9 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 2: their jackets. 10 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: We have match boxes that we bring to the candle 11 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: light vigels that also say a voice for Sarah and Jacob. 12 00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: And we have flyers, you know, with Sarah and Jacob's 13 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: pictures on them, asking for information from the public to 14 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: help us in their recovery. 15 00:00:45,520 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 2: And can you tell me a little bit about the 16 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 2: candlelight vigils. 17 00:00:48,600 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: They've been held annually and we up until two years ago, 18 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: we would hold them in that parking lot of the 19 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,480 Speaker 1: restaurant where everything kind of just started. 20 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 2: Took Troy on that wild goose chase from daycare to daycare, 21 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:06,440 Speaker 2: always promising that the next one was where she had 22 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 2: dropped off the kids. After hours of driving, Catherine asked 23 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 2: Troy to stop off at a restaurant, so she could 24 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 2: get a soda, and while he waited in the car, 25 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:16,400 Speaker 2: she took off. 26 00:01:17,280 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: So we held them in that parking lot up until 27 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: two years ago. But they are on September seventh every year, 28 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: rain or shine, no matter the weather, because that's the 29 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: day that she took them. So in the last two years, 30 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,880 Speaker 1: we've done them at places that Sarah and Jacob used 31 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 1: to like to go. We've kept them a bit more 32 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: private and had them at locations that the kids enjoyed 33 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: being at. 34 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 2: I've seen this before with the families of missing children, 35 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 2: pictures of a kid frozen in time about to blow 36 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 2: out the candles at a fourth birthday party maybe, and 37 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 2: that picture gets transformed into a million T shirts and 38 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 2: posters and ball caps, wristbands are made, and hashtags are 39 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 2: created with the. 40 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 3: Flyers still like if someone happened to see something they 41 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 3: didn't realize they saw, and as things keep developing it 42 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 3: rings a bell, then hopefully we'll hear something. 43 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 4: Yea. 44 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 2: Do people ever come up to you when you're wearing 45 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 2: the shirts, when you have any of the sort of 46 00:02:16,000 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 2: stuff that you've put together on or with you and 47 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 2: ask what the story is? Yes? Yes, And. 48 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: We have people that message the social media that have 49 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:30,679 Speaker 1: some of the stuff and they say, oh, people were 50 00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: asking can I get some more, you know, wrisbeyans flyers, 51 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: I'd like to hand them out. So the community has 52 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: also engaged in trying to, you know, keep their names 53 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: out there. 54 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 2: These items are a way to raise awareness, for sure, 55 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 2: but it's also a version of keeping your missing kid alive, 56 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 2: of not letting anyone forget about them. It's a terrible cliche, 57 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 2: but in this case it really is true. Sarah and 58 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 2: Jacob disappeared without a trace. There have been no credible 59 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 2: sightings of the two kids since the night of September seventh, 60 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, and their mother, Catherine Hoggle, believed to be 61 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 2: the last person to see them, has refused to share 62 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 2: any details of what happened that night, and with the 63 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 2: charges against her now dismissed, Troy is doubtful that she'll 64 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 2: ever help. Ambiguous loss is a kind of grief without closure. 65 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 2: It means living in a permanent fog of not knowing 66 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,480 Speaker 2: what happened to the person you love, where they are. 67 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 2: Even if Catherine revealed all today, even if the kid's 68 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 2: bodies were found, no one believes that their father, Troy 69 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 2: would be able to cheerfully move on with his life, 70 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 2: but still it would close one very particular type of wound, 71 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: the not knowing, the rational acceptance that the kids are 72 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,400 Speaker 2: most likely dead after so many years, but the inability 73 00:03:57,560 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 2: to completely quiet the tug that theirs still out there, 74 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 2: still waiting for their dad to pick them up and 75 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 2: bring them home. The loss of Sarah and Jacob, the 76 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 2: lack of answers nine years later, has created a huge 77 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 2: amount of emotional collateral damage, and not just for Troy. 78 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 2: Everyone who comes into contact with this family with this 79 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 2: story seems tainted by it. It's unshakable, and the deep 80 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 2: grief and near obsession the haunting that has become an 81 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,039 Speaker 2: everyday part of life have been shaped by two divergent 82 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 2: ways of looking at this case at what likely happened 83 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 2: to Sarah and Jacob, either staring at the grim Fax 84 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 2: head on or disappearing into a fantasy to avoid just 85 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 2: how awful the truth really is. I'm Sarah Trelevin and 86 00:04:52,440 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 2: this is Unrestorable, an original podcast from Anonymous content and iHeartRadio. 87 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 5: Nice to meet you guys. 88 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 6: Sarah's and Halifax and I'm in New York City. 89 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:23,560 Speaker 7: Okay, Yeah, thank you again for taking the time. 90 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 6: You do homicides right. 91 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 2: It took months for Beth and I to get Detective 92 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 2: Dmitri Ruven to talk to us. He's a homicide detective 93 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 2: with the Montgomery County Police Department, and he took the 94 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 2: lead on Sarah and Jacob's case, and he wasn't what 95 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 2: I expected. Dmitri has shoulder length, light brown hair with 96 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 2: day's old stubble, a whole hipster Jesus surfer kind of vibe. 97 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 2: Around the same time it became Troy's full time job 98 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:54,000 Speaker 2: to search for his children, it also became Dmitri Ruven's. 99 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 5: My sergeant at the time. There, I was like, hey, 100 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 5: we just got a call. There's a missing lady with 101 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 5: two of her children. 102 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 2: There was a lot of confusion when Catherine first disappeared 103 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 2: along with the kids. She hadn't been well. It felt 104 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 2: like a rescue effort for a family in disarray. But 105 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 2: things took a turn when Catherine was found later without 106 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 2: Sarah and Jacob. The police mobilized resources quickly. 107 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:25,039 Speaker 5: We had volunteers and dogs, and we were searching those 108 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 5: five six seven days. We were probably working eighteen twenty 109 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 5: hour days, searches, tips, sidings, and I think I've preceived 110 00:06:36,080 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 5: like over three hundred tips for months. 111 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 2: The police searched houses and fields, they used dogs and volunteers. 112 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 2: Dmitri thinks they searched more than thirty thousand acres. They 113 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 2: found nothing, and almost immediately there were indications that something 114 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 2: really bad had happened. 115 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 5: She had a conversation right before anybody even knew that 116 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 5: the kids were missing. 117 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 2: Dmitri is talking about a conversation that Catherine had the 118 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 2: morning of September eighth, when Troy thought the kids were 119 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:09,279 Speaker 2: in daycare. 120 00:07:10,240 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 5: She was at a day program where they helped people 121 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 5: with mental illnesses, and she spoke to somebody and that 122 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 5: person was going to a class and it was like 123 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 5: stress management class. And again, nobody even knows that the 124 00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 5: kids are missing at that time. And she's walking in 125 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 5: the hallway and that person says, Hey, Katherine, I'm going 126 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 5: to stress management. Do you want to come with me? 127 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 5: And she was like, yeah, I could use some stress 128 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:39,960 Speaker 5: management because I just and she kind of motions with 129 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 5: that hand. She's like, I just strangled my kids. That 130 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 5: person kind of stops, and then Catherine's kind of stoke 131 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:49,000 Speaker 5: and she goes, I'm just joking. 132 00:07:51,480 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 2: If it's true that she made this damning admission about 133 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:57,160 Speaker 2: strangling her children, it may be a critical piece of 134 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 2: the state's evidence. This seems to be the only time 135 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 2: that Catherine reference killing her children when asked. She's always 136 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 2: said that they're fine, that they're safe. But that's not 137 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 2: what the police or the FBI believe. 138 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 5: A lot of times with these you know, these kinds 139 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 5: of they call them authoristic. 140 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: Mothers, altruistic mothers. Can you explain what that is and 141 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,880 Speaker 2: also how Catherine Hobble fits that profile. 142 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 5: It's basically the view that kids as possessions. You know, 143 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 5: a lot they don't view those children as, you know, 144 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 5: like kids and I'm a mom and I love them. 145 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 5: They kind of view them as possessions that you can 146 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:40,320 Speaker 5: just get rid of. If they're no longer convenience too, 147 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 5: you can just put them in trash, like, which is 148 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 5: what you would do with an object, right, Like, if 149 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,479 Speaker 5: you don't need an object anymore, you would just trash it. 150 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 5: And I think it's probably applicable in her case. 151 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 2: No one but Catherine really knows. 152 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 5: That could have been a million places she could have 153 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 5: done it, Like, I think it's very possible that she 154 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 5: could have just you know, buried them. When we first 155 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 5: got it, she had all this dirt under her fingernails, 156 00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 5: like it looks like she was in the woods. So 157 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 5: there's still a part of me that thinks, hey, they're 158 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 5: still out there and maybe we just miss them. 159 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 2: The idea that the kids are still out there, dead 160 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,319 Speaker 2: or alive serves as both the hope and the haunting 161 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 2: of this family of one detective who almost a decade later, 162 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 2: still talks with Troy on the phone, and he still 163 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 2: wonders if there's something he could have done differently. 164 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, there's two kids involved, and you're supposed to, you know, 165 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 5: have some kind of resolution, whether you you know, find them, 166 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 5: find their bodies, at least tell Troy, like what happened. 167 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 5: But like t this day, we really can't. The case 168 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 5: is still on my desk because I'm like, what if 169 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,679 Speaker 5: we get a call tomorrow while I'm still here and 170 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 5: you know, somebody finds them, like they're building condoms or something, 171 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 5: and somebody finds them in the woods. You know, we 172 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 5: don't have that many cases that you know that's a 173 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 5: known body case, right, Like, it's pretty rare, and it's 174 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 5: even more rare when his kids so like, yeah, definitely effective. 175 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:12,720 Speaker 2: Only can you comment a little bit about what you 176 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 2: see in terms of Troy's situation and his sense of 177 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 2: failed justice in this case. 178 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 5: He's a very like goal oriented matter of fact, like 179 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 5: I'm going to find my kids. I think a lot 180 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 5: of people in his situation would have just kind of 181 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:31,160 Speaker 5: just wanted the world to like stop and just leave 182 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 5: them alone and let him read. But he just he 183 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 5: just goes and he's like one hundred miles an hour 184 00:10:35,360 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 5: and that's like his mission in life. But yeah, I 185 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 5: mean I do feel like, you know, as a police department, 186 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 5: as you know, society kind of failed him, like he 187 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 5: never got any closure and she knows what happened and 188 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 5: she's the only person, like we couldn't get her to 189 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 5: tell us whether we didn't ask the right questions then 190 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 5: use the right themes. I don't know. I don't think 191 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 5: that's easy to accept as a dad. And I get it, 192 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 5: you know, I get it. We never gave Troy like 193 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:11,720 Speaker 5: a definite answer like what happened? And I mean he 194 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 5: deserves it, you know, these days kids and we never 195 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:19,080 Speaker 5: found them, and it sounds like the person that did 196 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 5: it is going to get away with it. 197 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 2: While Dmitri Ruven still ruminates over the possibility of finding 198 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 2: Sarah and Jacob's bodies, of delivering the worst possible news 199 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:49,079 Speaker 2: to Troy as a form of consolation prize, Catherine's mother, Lindsay, 200 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 2: has channeled all of this ambiguity into a different kind 201 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: of purpose. She spent the last nine years developing her 202 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 2: own theories of this case, walking the tightrope of what 203 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 2: it means to support her daughter and advocate for her grandchildren. 204 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 7: Well, I think it very quickly became you know, she's 205 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 7: got mental illness. You know she probably harmed them, which 206 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 7: there's no data for that kind of belief. 207 00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,080 Speaker 2: Lindsay thinks the police jumped to conclusions about Catherine because 208 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 2: she's schizophrenic. They assumed that Catherine must have killed her 209 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 2: kids and declared the case a likely homicide within days. 210 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: That they operated under biases about mental illness, convincing themselves 211 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 2: that Catherine must be dangerous, even though Lindsay says she's 212 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 2: only ever been a danger to herself. What do you 213 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 2: think happened to the children, What do you think happened 214 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 2: that night? 215 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 7: I think I think she had had somebody help her plan. 216 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 2: An escape. 217 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:56,120 Speaker 7: She had been unhappy for a while, and you know, 218 00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 7: a lot of it was just family tension, family dysfunction 219 00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 7: that happens in every family, but this was a little 220 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,439 Speaker 7: bit different, and I think she saw that as her 221 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 7: only escape is just to disappear with the children. 222 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 2: Lindsey insists that Sarah and Jacob are still out there, 223 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 2: still alive, that Catherine was actually dropping the kids off 224 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:22,679 Speaker 2: with someone for safe keeping, just as Catherine has always insisted. 225 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 2: I mean, the idea that the kids are alive somewhere 226 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 2: and being sheltered by someone, it's it's challenging to accept because, 227 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 2: you know, because the logistics of it, like what are 228 00:13:44,120 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 2: these kids, you know, living under false identities? You know, 229 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 2: who would be willing to take this risk? You know, 230 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 2: all of this stuff. It's just it is really when 231 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,319 Speaker 2: you think I understand it, yeah yeah, I mean, so, 232 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 2: so what is the narrative there for you? What makes 233 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 2: sense to you? 234 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 7: I think she was put in touch with the right people, 235 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 7: and I understand when people are this is just too 236 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 7: wild to believe. And that's the whole story. I mean, 237 00:14:14,760 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 7: every single twist and turn of the story is just 238 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 7: you know, you kind of get to the point where 239 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 7: it's like someone could write something so bizarre. It's there 240 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 7: are things that I know about people she might have 241 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 7: been in touch with that make me believe, yes, this 242 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 7: could happen. It is unfortunate that we've not spent more 243 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 7: time looking for the possibility of that they could be 244 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 7: out there. But you know, I have enough information that 245 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 7: I believe that I'm not going to stop until I 246 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 7: find out what the answer is. And Catherine knows that. 247 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 2: Lindsay was careful and a bit vague when Beth and 248 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 2: I sat down with her at her townhouse in Gaithersburg, 249 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 2: but she's elaborated in other conversations and in posts she's 250 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 2: created online where she poores over the details of Sarah 251 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 2: and Jacob's case. Lindsay believes it's possible that Catherine took 252 00:15:20,080 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 2: Sarah and Jacob to some kind of underground safehouse for 253 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 2: women and their children, that Catherine was worried she would 254 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 2: lose custody and wanted to get them away from Troy, 255 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 2: And for the last nine years, Lindsay has been trying 256 00:15:31,520 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 2: to get Catherine to confirm her theory, to provide her 257 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 2: with the kind of lead she needs to go out 258 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 2: and find her grandchildren. Jacob, who would now be eleven 259 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 2: years old and Sarah twelve. She also wants the reassurance 260 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 2: that her daughter isn't capable of doing the really awful 261 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 2: thing that everyone says she did. 262 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:54,320 Speaker 7: Wait, i'd say what happened to Sarah and Jacob, She's like, 263 00:15:54,360 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 7: nothing happened to them. And so I've been persistent in 264 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 7: that path with her, and she knows how I stand. 265 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 7: I'm you know, I'm again. I've had advice that I 266 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 7: should just cut her off, and I said, you know, 267 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 7: I I'm the only one that can approach her from 268 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,760 Speaker 7: the standpoint being a mother. You can't sub anybody else in. 269 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 7: And I've seen and know enough of the players in 270 00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 7: this tragedy to know what you've been through or what 271 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 7: she's been through. And so I did what I thought 272 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 7: was the best for her and for the children, because 273 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 7: I figured if anybody could get the answers out of her, 274 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 7: I should be able to. And I wasn't. I wasn't 275 00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 7: able to get that answer. 276 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 2: She'd given you a narrative for what happened that night 277 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 2: and morning that Sarah and Jacob disappeared. Has she like 278 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,399 Speaker 2: sort of accounted for that time or given you her 279 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 2: her version of events. 280 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 7: Not really. 281 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,480 Speaker 2: At the end of the day, Lindsay says, there are 282 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 2: no bodies, no actual proof that Catherine killed her kids. 283 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 7: Whatever people think, you know, it's been well, you're just 284 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 7: a distract grandmother, and like I'm more than a distract grandmother. 285 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 7: I mean, you know, and there are ways you grieve, 286 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 7: even though I believe they're alive. But my body and 287 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 7: my brain still grieve and I've been through that, and 288 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 7: so I know exactly what people may think. 289 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 2: And it doesn't matter. Do you expect one day that 290 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 2: you will be reunited with Sarah Jacob? 291 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,400 Speaker 7: You know that's that's difficult, just due to the dynamics 292 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 7: at hand. You know, I may not be right, but 293 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 7: I feel like I'm the only one right now with 294 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 7: enough information to say I think they're alive and hopes 295 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 7: that we can put aside some of the pain of 296 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 7: this and bring those three children together. But yeah, I've 297 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 7: not given up. 298 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 2: Is there anything else you can tell us about the 299 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 2: leads you're following and where you think Sarah Jacob might be. 300 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,240 Speaker 7: There's not anything I'm gonna say on the record. 301 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 2: No. 302 00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:35,399 Speaker 7: I mean, like I said, I have information, but until 303 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:41,159 Speaker 7: you can, you know, prove probable cause it's not something 304 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 7: that police are, the authorities or National Center for Missing 305 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 7: Exploited Children can follow up on. 306 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 2: And you alluded before to Catherine having help from someone. 307 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 2: Do you think that's from someone you know or from 308 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,720 Speaker 2: a stranger both? It could be both. 309 00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 6: Yeah, their goal is not to find my children. 310 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 2: Troy has limited patients for the alternative reality. He says, 311 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 2: both of Catherine's parents live in their inability to accept 312 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 2: the truth and push Catherine to cooperate with authorities and 313 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 2: admit what she did. 314 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 6: They don't care about my children. 315 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 3: They care about painting their white big offense and coddling 316 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 3: their little monster or whatever. 317 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:33,399 Speaker 6: I don't know know. 318 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 2: For Detective Dmitri Ruven too, Lindsay's wishful thinking doesn't really 319 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 2: add up. 320 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 5: So yeah, I mean, of course she's a mom and 321 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 5: she has to, Like I don't know, I don't know 322 00:19:44,960 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 5: how I would feel that, like my kids charged with 323 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 5: something like that, of course I would hold out hope. 324 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,720 Speaker 5: But like to me, it's just not logical. I mean, 325 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 5: she's been sitting in a mental institution, she was getting 326 00:19:56,240 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 5: ready to be prosecuted for double murder. Right, kids are 327 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 5: somewhere with a friend whoever they are you don't even 328 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 5: have to, like Graham to port, just have a picture 329 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:09,880 Speaker 5: of them and then the charges that dismissed. 330 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 2: I was going to ask, have you seen this in 331 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: other cases with family members where there's this real struggle 332 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 2: to grapple with what's in front of them. 333 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,440 Speaker 5: Of course happens all the time, especially with moms. Happens 334 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:27,880 Speaker 5: all the time, with murderers, with rapists, you know, happens 335 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 5: all the time. Troy and maybe lindsay they don't have 336 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 5: to be logical about it, like we can stay back 337 00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:39,840 Speaker 5: and be logical, But for them, I think it's not 338 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 5: a logical thing. 339 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 2: Troy has tried his best to live in reality. He 340 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,639 Speaker 2: spent nine years mired in the truth of what likely 341 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 2: happen into his kids, observing every piece of bad news, 342 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 2: every failed lead, like having one bucket of cold water 343 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 2: after another dumped over his head. When the kids first disappeared, 344 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 2: Troy didn't go to work for six months. He barely slept. 345 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 2: He spent all of his days and most of his 346 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 2: nights looking for Sarah and Jacob, driving around and handing 347 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 2: out flyers. He went on TV news programs and announced 348 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 2: that he kept his door unlocked in case anyone wanted 349 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 2: to drop off his kids, no questions asked. But months 350 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 2: passed and Sarah and Jacob didn't come home. Troy still 351 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 2: had another kid to raise, and at some point he 352 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 2: had to go back to work find a way to 353 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,199 Speaker 2: move on but without forgetting, and he found help to 354 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 2: do that. 355 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: I was new to the area, so I was looking 356 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:58,159 Speaker 1: for I just had one child, she was getting older, 357 00:21:58,280 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: and I was like, I need some probably need some 358 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: ad friends. So I think that we initially met online, 359 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: but then he was down close to the area where 360 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:12,400 Speaker 1: I worked at and ended up meeting up in person 361 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,880 Speaker 1: there and we just kind of, I don't know, we 362 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: just sort of clicked. 363 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 2: Troy's wife, Stephanie, is slim and tall, with glasses, and 364 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,120 Speaker 2: she typically wears her brown hair up in a ponytail. 365 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 2: She's a nurse in her forties, and she both gives 366 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 2: off a no nonsense vibe and has a discernible nervous energy. 367 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 2: She met Troy at the oddest time, what would seem 368 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,480 Speaker 2: like the worst time. It was just six months after 369 00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 2: Sarah and Jacob were taken. 370 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 1: I think the first time we met we went to 371 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: the mall, and I believe we were looking for shoes 372 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: for one of his nephews, and I remember him kind 373 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: of being flirtatious and kind of being shocked by that, 374 00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: just kind of like we were teenagers almost. We were 375 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: like in a shoe star were in the mall and 376 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: it was, yeah, is this. 377 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 2: Your signature move taking women to shoe stores? 378 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 6: No? 379 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 4: No, my nephew. He's what like six eight or something. 380 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 4: He wears like a size whatever, like fifteen or seventeen something, 381 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 4: So he was having trouble finding like there was some 382 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 4: shoes he wanted for basketball, and oh, I wanted to 383 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 4: get him. 384 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 2: When is the first time that Troy tells you about 385 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 2: Sarah and Jacob? 386 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:30,199 Speaker 4: We were I. 387 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:31,879 Speaker 1: Don't remember exactly when it was, but we were on 388 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,719 Speaker 1: the phone one night and he just kind of stopped 389 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,359 Speaker 1: me and he said, I just have to tell you 390 00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: something before we continue on. 391 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 2: And I remember going, oh, my god, I mean. 392 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: We're older were and just the way he said it, 393 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: I just I couldn't imagine what it could have been. 394 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: And he told me that his two kids were missing, 395 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: and honestly, I don't think that I believed him. I 396 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:01,520 Speaker 1: didn't know him very well, and people say a lot 397 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:03,239 Speaker 1: of things. I mean, I don't know who would say that, 398 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 1: but I was just maybe it was the shock of it. 399 00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: I didn't know the story. I had never seen it 400 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 1: on the news. I didn't know anything of it. So 401 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, well, maybe this is just some kind of 402 00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: custody drama, you know, some kind of they don't get 403 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 1: along anymore. I really had no idea the extent of 404 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:24,199 Speaker 1: what it really was. 405 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 2: Stephanie was falling for Troy, but she was wary and 406 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,120 Speaker 2: her family worried about her getting involved in all of this. 407 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 2: But something shifted in her when she met Troy's son. 408 00:24:37,160 --> 00:24:40,360 Speaker 1: When it comes to the oldest child, I just had 409 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: this loyalty. 410 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 2: It's like almost immediate. Yeah you felt like he was 411 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 2: meant to be yours? 412 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah I did. We kind of almost just bonded 413 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,679 Speaker 1: in that way. It wasn't even neither of us had to. 414 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 1: It wasn't like we tried. 415 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 2: It just happened. 416 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: It was just I just started doing the things for 417 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,400 Speaker 1: him that I would do that any child deserves. 418 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 2: Stephanie soon adopted Troy's mission to find the kids, and 419 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 2: their life together has been overshadowed by that mission and 420 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 2: by grief from the very beginning. 421 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I think we had some fun in the 422 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 1: very beginning, you know, when we were first getting to 423 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: know each other, but it was still there. So I 424 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: don't think in a situation like this you can ever 425 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: really have that complete freedom. 426 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 3: I mean, we would have fun, but then I would 427 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 3: like call Catherine, you know, and try to get information. 428 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 3: It's like, you know, it's not that we've never had 429 00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,840 Speaker 3: fun together, but it's like, you know that it's like 430 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 3: you said, it's always there. We you know, we so 431 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 3: we're having fun and then and then maybe we go 432 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 3: to a concert and then come home and then there's 433 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 3: five leads that we're looking at online, you know. 434 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: So it was definitely difficult. 435 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 2: I think it's still difficult. 436 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: All these years later, to build maybe what we couldn't 437 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 1: have or didn't to maintain things. 438 00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:08,639 Speaker 2: It goes back and forth. 439 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: Our relationship definitely isn't the priority. But I also came 440 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: into the picture as a mother. I came in as 441 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: you know, having a full time career, so I understand priorities, 442 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: and you know, our kids were our priorities. 443 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 2: Troy and Stephanie have created a blended family, which also 444 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 2: includes Stephanie's daughter from a previous relationship. They live in 445 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 2: a tidy home not far from DC, with lots of 446 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 2: framed family photos, those decorative inspirational sayings, and the kind 447 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 2: of overstuffed couches that are perfect for napping for family 448 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:43,440 Speaker 2: movie nights. 449 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: I mean, Troy takes our son to school every morning. 450 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 2: You know. 451 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:50,760 Speaker 1: We have dogs and a home, and I do laundry 452 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: and dinner's at six o'clock every night, and we go 453 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: to church on Sundays, and we go to my parents' 454 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:04,600 Speaker 1: house and visit. You know, we have to regularly kind 455 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: of weigh things, and I constantly feel like I'm choosing 456 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: the two children at home over Sarah and Jacob or 457 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: vice versa. It's a constant battle as parents that I 458 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: think that we deal with all the time. But I 459 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: have a loyalty to Sarah and Jacob, and I have 460 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 1: a loyalty to my son that these are his siblings, 461 00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: So we just have to keep going. 462 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,919 Speaker 2: Stephanie runs the social media pages for Sarah and Jacob, 463 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,800 Speaker 2: posting their pictures on Facebook and Instagram, updating followers on 464 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 2: developments and milestones, in the case celebrating their birthdays. 465 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: This is kind of also my way of making sure 466 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,400 Speaker 1: that they still have a voice that someone is speaking 467 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,280 Speaker 1: and advocating for them, that people don't forget that they're 468 00:27:56,280 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 1: real children, that we're really here, and they deserve to 469 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: never be forgotten, to not even just be remembered, but 470 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: to be reminded of. 471 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 2: And be part of our daily lives. I saw a 472 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 2: picture on Facebook of a portrait, a family portrait that 473 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 2: you must have had commissioned. Troy did that Troy had commissioned? Yes, 474 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 2: that was my Christmas gift. 475 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: Troy had a family portrait made of him and I 476 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:33,919 Speaker 1: and our oldest son, Sarah and Jacob, my daughter, and 477 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 1: then our two dogs. So kind of our combined family, 478 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,080 Speaker 1: you know, all together in one place, even if everyone's 479 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 1: not here. 480 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 2: And what did it mean to you to get that? 481 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: It's something that I would hope for. 482 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 2: Next time on Unrestorable. 483 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 3: There's no end of the road there, so we keep fighting, 484 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,080 Speaker 3: we keep looking if we never find them all by looking. 485 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 2: Unrestorable is executive produced and hosted by Me, Sarah Trelevin, 486 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,479 Speaker 2: and Beth Carris. Our story editor is Kathleen Goldheart. Mixing 487 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 2: and sound designed by Mitchell Stewart for anonymous content. Jessica 488 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 2: Grimshaw is our executive producer. Jennifer Sears is our executive 489 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 2: in charge of production, and nick Yannas is our legal 490 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 2: counsel for iHeart, executive producer Christina Everett and supervising producer 491 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 2: Abu Zaphar.