1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:07,760 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Natalman, and this is Psychoactive, a production 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,840 Speaker 1: of iHeart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the show 3 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: where we talk about all things drugs. But any views 4 00:00:15,440 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: expressed here do not represent those of iHeart Media, Protozoa Pictures, 5 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed, as an inveterate contrarian, 6 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: I can tell you they may not even represent my own. 7 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: And nothing contained in this show should be used as 8 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: medical advice or encouragement to use any type of drug. Hello, 9 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:49,239 Speaker 1: Psychoactive listeners. Today's guest is Sineon Schnapper. He is the 10 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: co founder and director of the j l S Fund, 11 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: which is one of the more significant investment funds placing 12 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: bets basically and learning the whole field of psychedelics, innovation 13 00:01:03,480 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: and psychedelics business. I said, say, I just met Simeon, 14 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: and interestingly enough, through another guest of Psychoactive. It was 15 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: Leonard Picard, who some of you may have listened to. 16 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: He was in town, we were getting to know one 17 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: another and then he brings me over to meet his 18 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: buddy Simeon Snapper, and we hit it off and so 19 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: full disclosure, Uh, you know, after hitting it off, he 20 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: asked me to be an advisor to this fund, so 21 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: I had a you know, full disclosure, I'm an advisor 22 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: to Simeon's Jails fund, and one of the one of 23 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: the implications of that is that if it does well, 24 00:01:35,560 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: I'll make some money as a result. Um. But also 25 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: as a result, I've enjoyed getting to know him and 26 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: really coming to appreciate the extent to which he is respected, 27 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: admired and liked in this psychedelics area. And he's also 28 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: one of the people on the investment side who's been 29 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 1: involved in this space, not just investment but psychedelics for 30 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 1: quite a long time. So Simeon, welcome, Thank you so much. Ethan. Well, 31 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:08,120 Speaker 1: you know, we we recently crossed paths at uh this 32 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,920 Speaker 1: wonderful conference in New York called the Horizons Conference. I mean, 33 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: actually the month before that we were down in Miami 34 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,919 Speaker 1: at the Miami Wonderland Conference on in Business, which was 35 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: a more heavily business one. Horizons goes back, you know, 36 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 1: fourteen years. I think I spoke at the first one 37 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: of their conference in New York back in two thousand 38 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:28,119 Speaker 1: and seven. But it's really growing in leaps and bounds, 39 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: and there was this incredible energy going on, and and 40 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: there is truly a psychedelic renaissance underway right now. And 41 00:02:38,040 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: why do you think it's happening now? Um, There's so 42 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,679 Speaker 1: many ways to answer it, but the default is kind 43 00:02:45,720 --> 00:02:50,399 Speaker 1: of the conflation of you know, three major things happening. 44 00:02:50,520 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: You have, you know, regulatory stuff from the f d 45 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 1: A with breakthrough designation. You have the decriminalization of psycho 46 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: alex and or even the legalization. You have a velocity 47 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: of research coming out of universities, etcetera, etcetera. And this 48 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:13,160 Speaker 1: is all being powered fueled by you know, what we 49 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: call generating alpha, which is money and the energy of money. 50 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,679 Speaker 1: So it's really this perfect fire that's, in our opinion, 51 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: creating this renaissance. You know, I've mentioned on Psychoactive many 52 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: times my friend Rick Doblin, who founded MAPS back in 53 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: the mid nineteen eighties and has just been the trooper 54 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: building this thing in an incredible way. And for so 55 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: long it was all about philanthropic contributions, just as I 56 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: rely on philathropic contributions to build Drug Policy Alliance and uh, 57 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 1: you know and run the ballot initiatives and all that 58 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 1: sort of stuff. But now there's this remarkable infusion of funding. 59 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: I think more a lot on the philanthropic side, but 60 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: that's now I think being sort of dwarfed on the 61 00:03:55,240 --> 00:04:00,920 Speaker 1: investment side. Yes, it is, and it's it's very delicate too. 62 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: I mean there's the pure play you know, venture capitalists 63 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: or private equity or just investor on the money side, 64 00:04:07,280 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: and then there's how do you invest into psychedelics. But 65 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: for me, it's always been this interesting dance between the 66 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,360 Speaker 1: drug world and the the energy in the world of money. 67 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: I can imagine it's a fascinating well. I mean, right now, 68 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 1: I see there's some companies that have gone public that 69 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,640 Speaker 1: I have billion dollar valuations on the market. Are we 70 00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:29,479 Speaker 1: going to see many more companies going that way and 71 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 1: many more billion billion dollar valuations? Easily? I think you're 72 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: gonna see a lot of news and you know, this 73 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: first quarter of two you're also going to see a 74 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: shift probably from mental health to you know, everything in 75 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 1: central nervous system and anything that's inflammation from Alzheimer's to Parkinson's, uh, etcetera. 76 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: But for right now, you're definitely seeing the bunch of 77 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,280 Speaker 1: companies going public and attaining you know what people call 78 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: you know, unicorn status, that billion dollar plusvaluation on senior exchanges. 79 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,480 Speaker 1: For me, it's, you know, it's exciting. It's to some extent, 80 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: something I've been waiting for for you know, a few decades. 81 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: I've always loved starting something new, and I've always loved, 82 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: if done intelligently and done ethically, how provocative and important 83 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,720 Speaker 1: money could be to help move the needle. And then 84 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: of course I've always loved the substances. So it's an 85 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: exciting time for this all to be uh kind of 86 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: colliding if you will. Yeah, well, let's break it down 87 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:30,360 Speaker 1: for our audience then. So, I mean there was MAPS 88 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: that was out there first and real true pioneer Rick 89 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 1: Doblin and his colleagues raising tensive millions of dollars to 90 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 1: move forward with studies on using M D M A 91 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: a K ecstasy to treat PTSD, And they've been moving 92 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: that process through the FDA for many years and there's 93 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,359 Speaker 1: a possibility they think it's quite likely in fact, that 94 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,799 Speaker 1: the FDA will give a green light, uh two years 95 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,640 Speaker 1: from now for this to be basically allowed for doctors 96 00:05:56,680 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: to prescribe UM. But MAPS was always involved in, you know, 97 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:06,440 Speaker 1: doing everything from philanthropists, and now they've created a public 98 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: benefit corporation, basically a for profit corporation owned by the 99 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: nonprofit organization. They've just made a deal with you know, 100 00:06:15,360 --> 00:06:18,480 Speaker 1: a major investor and I think seventy billion dollars to 101 00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 1: help finish this off. UM. So I you know, and 102 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: I know Rick Doblin has been worried about the role 103 00:06:26,240 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: of money emerging too quickly in this space, but he 104 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: also sees it as essential. Do you have worries? I 105 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:39,119 Speaker 1: think worry would be too strong, but concern. I could, 106 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: you know, to some great extent empathize though with Rick, right. 107 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: I mean, there was all this progress for decades purely philanthropically, um, 108 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,200 Speaker 1: and then something shifted, you know, about three years ago 109 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: with the kind of this opening of wait, these are 110 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 1: really important molecules and there's really important science going on, 111 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 1: and is this at a capital markets opportunity? So I 112 00:07:07,240 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: could definitely empathize with Rick and others who have done 113 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: such an amazing job of raising capital or getting the 114 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: donors to get m d M A where it is. 115 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: But there's a lot of other molecules and other indications, 116 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 1: and you know, I think it just kind of got 117 00:07:23,520 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: to this point where it's like, Okay, maybe we can 118 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 1: do something unique. Yeah, you know. You know, Rick talks 119 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:32,800 Speaker 1: about having in some respects's been a victim of his 120 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: own success in raising so much money moving this thing forward, 121 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: and I can relate because, you know, forever and ever, 122 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,800 Speaker 1: in raising the money to legalize marijuana, first for medical 123 00:07:41,840 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: purposes and then more broadly, it was entirely grounded in 124 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: philanthropic contributions. And even in the last years I was 125 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: doing this in fifteen sixteen, even when I could raise 126 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: a little bit of money from folks in the marijuana industry, 127 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: you know, it was always clear I would talk to 128 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: those guys because they were stakeholders, but I would never 129 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 1: try to raise money from them until after we had 130 00:08:01,880 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: drafted the ballot initiatives. We didn't want them to have 131 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: undo influence over it. And then once we won the 132 00:08:07,760 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 1: California initiative in twenty sixteen, everybody saw it was like 133 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: game over. Marijuana is going to be legalized across the country. 134 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 1: And at that point, basically many of the philanthropists were saying, 135 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: ethan at this point rely on the for profit guys. 136 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: I've been giving you the money and getting my taxi 137 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: or they couldn't get tax deductions for the ballot initiatives, 138 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 1: but I've been doing it philanthropically, it doesn't really make 139 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: any sense anymore. So I think Rick sometimes now find 140 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: themselfs competing right to get philanthropic contributions when many of 141 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 1: the rich guys who want to put this money in 142 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: are saying, let me just invest the whole thing, you know, 143 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 1: for profit. Why give away money when I could be 144 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,960 Speaker 1: just you know, getting a return on my investment very directly, 145 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 1: It's a really difficult argument to win sometimes. And you know, 146 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: maps and Rick is one of uh several in this 147 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 1: space who you know, I've all either worked with personally 148 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,160 Speaker 1: or have known over the years, and I would is 149 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: way off, like, you know, to two and a half 150 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: years ago when we started you know, quote unquote deploying 151 00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: capital in the space. I thought this is gonna really 152 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 1: benefit the nonprofits too, and I just I totally missed 153 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:18,640 Speaker 1: that because then I sat down with, you know, to 154 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: your whole point, people who had been donors in the 155 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: space for a long time, and I'm talking to them 156 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: about our fund and our o eyes and you know, 157 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:32,360 Speaker 1: quote unquote making money as well as doing good, and 158 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: a lot of them were like, well, wait a minute. 159 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: If I'm investing and it's going to be the same outcome, 160 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: why wouldn't I invest and get a return which I 161 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 1: could donate to another industry or another area that isn't 162 00:09:47,880 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: that far along um in integrating capital markets to solve 163 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: a big problem. So it was a big like like really, yeah, 164 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: I mean you see all these universities now being up 165 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: with research institutes right or you know, or hostibly and 166 00:10:02,720 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 1: why you land going in New York, Johns Hopkins, University 167 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: of California, Imperial College in London. Uh, you know, I 168 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: know this programs at Harvard and Yale and just more 169 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 1: and more popping up, either into you know, a few 170 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,320 Speaker 1: a few researchers or sometimes entire projects. Uh. Are those 171 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: being funded purely philanthropically or is it a mixed investment 172 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,599 Speaker 1: where the investors are going to have some profitability to 173 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: be made from those investments. Yeah, it's definitely more of 174 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: the ladder, and each of the ones you mentioned are 175 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: unique and how they're structuring. I've definitely had the opportunity 176 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: to participate on drafting of several and I've kind of 177 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: watched certain ones evolve over the years, but generally UM. 178 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:49,320 Speaker 1: The bigger ones are contemplating an interdisciplinary approach where they're 179 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: accessing everything the universities have to offer. So it's not 180 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: just the chemistry. It's the political science, it's the anthropology, 181 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:01,359 Speaker 1: it's the math, it's the academic computing. So that benefits 182 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: them from recruiting new students to just on the science 183 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 1: side and the research side. There's always been I P 184 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 1: and licensing deals out of universities. That's why some universities, 185 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: I mean, if you really dig into the balance sheets, 186 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,679 Speaker 1: have these endowments that are massive. And a lot of 187 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: those endowments was not just alumni donations or you know, 188 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:29,079 Speaker 1: they had antiquities from some bygone era that appreciated in value, 189 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: but it was some of the deals that flowed into 190 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: the university UM from various departments that had either had 191 00:11:35,840 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 1: royalties or i P assignments with royalties, etcetera. So I'm 192 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: watching a whole mess of universities and colleges kind of 193 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,440 Speaker 1: look at this and say, wait, if A, B and 194 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: C are doing it, why aren't we setting up a 195 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 1: psychedelic institute. And I had a call from a provost 196 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 1: even a month ago, and this is from a community 197 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: college they don't even have a chemistry and re church department. 198 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 1: And he's like, Hey, what do you know about this, 199 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: uh this institute thing? Should we do one of those? 200 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: And I'm like, and I just was like, what is happening? Well, 201 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I see me. I'll tell you a funny 202 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: story about that. Rick called me last year, a year 203 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,160 Speaker 1: and a half ago, and he wanted me to introduce 204 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: him to Kurt Smoke. Now, Kurt Smoke was the mayor 205 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: of Baltimore in the late eighties. Uh, and he was 206 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,160 Speaker 1: the one who surprised everybody by calling for a major 207 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: reconsideration the drug war and drug prohibition at the same 208 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:34,480 Speaker 1: time that I was a young assistant professor Princeton making 209 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: similar arguments. And he and I became the kind of 210 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: you know, the Baltimore mayor and the Princeton professor making 211 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: these arguments. And then he moved on from being mayor, 212 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: you know, he became the protost I think at Howard University, 213 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:48,400 Speaker 1: and now he's the president of the University of Baltimore, 214 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,319 Speaker 1: which is basically the City College of Baltimore. And Rick 215 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: wanted to meet him because the guy who founded Go Daddy, 216 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 1: he actually was interested in the issue of veterans and 217 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: veterans mental health and psychelics research and d m A. 218 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: And he I think was one of the biggest donors 219 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: of University of Baltimore, and so it was all about 220 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: saying whether this local college, University of Baltimore, could begin 221 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: to have a little psychedelics you know, research component to it. 222 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,120 Speaker 1: So I think you're exactly right. It's not just the 223 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: major institutions, you know, it's a whole bunch of others. 224 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: Let's take a break here and go to an ad. Now, 225 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,440 Speaker 1: let's just step back for a second. You know, a 226 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: lot of the focus right now is on M d 227 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: M A getting approved with maps effort by the f 228 00:13:38,440 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: d A. And the other one that everybody talks about 229 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 1: is this company called Compass, started by the Goldsmiths um 230 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: which also now has a billion dollar plus valuation in 231 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: the markets, which is looking at psilocybin I think, to 232 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: treat depression, right, And that's the other one that people 233 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: are optimistic will be approved by the FDA in coming years. 234 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: And so what else is on the horizon in terms 235 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:05,079 Speaker 1: of potential treatments or companies that look to be third, fourth, 236 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: and fifth in this place, or is that the sixty 237 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 1: four dollar question for you as an investor in all 238 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: of this. Yeah, I would say it's a sixty three 239 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: thousand dollar question because there's no it's not a matter 240 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 1: of um of if you know from our thesis, it's 241 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: a matter of when. So whether it's if we're just 242 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: talking at the molecular level, you know, M d M 243 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 1: A versus psilocybin versus five M e O d M 244 00:14:29,040 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: T versus LSD. There's so many studies happening right now, 245 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: and there's so much promise that it's really going to 246 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 1: be based on the teams that are able to execute faster. 247 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: Just to back up for seconds, So for our listeners, 248 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: when Seeming is referring to a psilocybin, he's talking about 249 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: the key ingredient in mushrooms, psilocypic mushrooms. And when he's 250 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: talking about five M e O d MT, that's something 251 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: that's oftentimes associated with the toad from the Sonoran desert um. 252 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: But also it can be produced synthetically, as can be 253 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: mess s goal in, which is a key ingredient in 254 00:15:02,040 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: peyote or in san pedro. So those are the substance 255 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: we're talking about, but just to stick for a moment, 256 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: simeon on this research f d A route. Um do 257 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: you I mean if you had a bet like, are 258 00:15:12,840 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: what are going to be the next substances or molecules 259 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: for which types of mental health conditions? You have the molecule, 260 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: the indication, and where they're at on the f d 261 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:30,320 Speaker 1: A path. So m d m A is tied right 262 00:15:30,360 --> 00:15:34,280 Speaker 1: now to the indication of post traumatic stress disorder, and 263 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 1: that's very close to being approved right it's in its 264 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: second clinical trial phase three. You have psilocybin or the 265 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: mushroom you'd reference compass in a phase two around the 266 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: indication of treatment resistant depression. So something might not go through. 267 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: There's a lot of drugs that you know, don't even 268 00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: get to a phase one that are pre clinical. There's 269 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: drugs that get the phase two and then and then fail. Um. 270 00:16:01,040 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 1: So that's not a d and indicative, but it's a 271 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,760 Speaker 1: good it's a good guess. It's a good barometer. So 272 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: when m DAMA gets approved for treating PTSD, at that 273 00:16:11,120 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: point it may have a more rapid progress in terms 274 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: of being used to treat other medical conditions, whether it's 275 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: an eating disorder or whether it's a range of other things, 276 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: and ditto for psilocybin, which Compass is moving forward with now. Right, 277 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: So you have those sorts of things, then you have, 278 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: you know, the question about whether something like LSD, which 279 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: I understand a lot of researchers don't do as much 280 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: with in part because it's a much longer experience and 281 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: therefore the time of the therapist, you know, is you know, 282 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: that costs a lot more and because LSD still has 283 00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: a negative association in the public and the political mind. 284 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: Um that mesclan is a possibility, that I begins a possibility. Um, 285 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: But that in addition, there are these companies creating new molecules, right, 286 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: I mean, creating variants on each of these drugs that 287 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: they hope will have more upside and us downside. Yeah, 288 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 1: you know, a lot of people are basing this on 289 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: the you know, the odd few dozen you know, classical psychedelics, 290 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: and it's very interesting. Some companies are viewing it through 291 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 1: the perspective and we can make these better because it's 292 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: the right thing to do. Other companies are viewing if 293 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,240 Speaker 1: we can make these not necessarily better, but different, so 294 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,119 Speaker 1: that we can you know, turn more patients through the 295 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: door every day. UM, there's definitely a trend to you know, 296 00:17:28,840 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: for me at least, who has been you know, a 297 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: long time psycho Nott and have you know, played in 298 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: a lot of UM, a lot of different intersections of 299 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: this space. UM. I've always appreciated the catharsis of you know, 300 00:17:42,760 --> 00:17:46,120 Speaker 1: an actual therapeutic trip. And there's a lot of narratives 301 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: right now that are like the hallucination the trip confronting 302 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: yourself is a side effect, and let's eliminate that altogether, 303 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,640 Speaker 1: presuming that we could have the same effect simply by 304 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,880 Speaker 1: um creating the same levels of neuro plasticity and brain 305 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 1: chemistry that will quote unquote solve that indication. I mean, 306 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,200 Speaker 1: I guess most creating compounds where you don't get nauseous, 307 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,119 Speaker 1: or they last less time or things like that. Right 308 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: certainly in the fungi world, I mean we've looked at 309 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 1: I mean, mushrooms are and it's it's its own universe. 310 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: They're so amazing in general, but you could find a 311 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: strain of soelocity and depending on how you cultivate it, 312 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: eliminate the nausea from the whole effect which has been 313 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 1: there you know previously or commonly and the same thing 314 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: obviously can be done at the synthetic level depending on 315 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 1: what molecules you're looking at, So you know, to heach 316 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,159 Speaker 1: his own on the on the side effect or uh 317 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 1: creating something new that's that's better or um faster or cheaper. 318 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: And when you look at all the potential mental health 319 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: conditions that are out there, what are some of the 320 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: other ones? Yeah, the answer is limited by the human 321 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: condition in but you know, the next top ten, Like 322 00:19:03,040 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 1: we're looking at a lot of invested in companies focusing 323 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: on traumatic brain injury as an example, UM, any range 324 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: of eating disorders, of which there's you know, hundreds, and 325 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: there's nuances in each of those hundreds that are different. UM. 326 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: Obviously anything in in depression from treatment resistant to m 327 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 1: d D too. You know, generalized anxiety disorder or social 328 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: anxiety disorder, which you know, I look at those indications 329 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: and they're very nuanced and very complex. But if I 330 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 1: look at you know, a DSM manual like so many 331 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 1: of those, at least in the UH generalized anything anxiety disorder, 332 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,640 Speaker 1: it is like, oh my god, that's was my last 333 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:48,480 Speaker 1: twenty four hours. Oh my god, wait, that's been my 334 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: last ten years. It's so pervasive. So you know, it 335 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: was a bit tongue in cheek. The the amount of 336 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: indications are only limited by the human condition at least 337 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: where we're at right now as a specie. But there's 338 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:05,040 Speaker 1: a lot out there well so, so some of the 339 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: money has got to be made by patenting these new molecules, 340 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 1: right And I've heard Compass, you know, which is now 341 00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: the biggest in the companies right now, um taking some 342 00:20:14,440 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 1: real flak for being overly aggressive in trying to claim 343 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: patents on things that they should not rightfully be trying 344 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 1: to patent and own. And you know their responses, Hey, 345 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: that's just the way people operating the patent world. But 346 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 1: people in the side else world are saying, we're trying 347 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: to do something different here, like cut that ship out. 348 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: What's your take on that? Yeah, I think that. I 349 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 1: think I'm more in the camp of cut that ship out, um. 350 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: And there's definitely been responses from leadership of we're going 351 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: to cut that ship out. Um. Time will tell how 352 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: true that is. I also know, you know, from other industries, 353 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 1: from tech, from education, like patents are the path. It's 354 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 1: it's how the system works. And it gets really hard 355 00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: to like like what are we trying to do? Are 356 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: we trying to heal people and create greater patient outcomes? 357 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:07,639 Speaker 1: And the answer I think is yes to all that. 358 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: But then the bigger question comes as the system broken 359 00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: or is there a way to fix the underlying system? 360 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: By the system, you mean patents or you mean the 361 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,080 Speaker 1: broader you know, nature of capitalism and capital markets, patents, 362 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: the US health care system, capitalism in general. Right, it's like, 363 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: we know it's not the best, and I'm not necessarily 364 00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: resolving to say, well, it's what we have, because we're 365 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:35,840 Speaker 1: always evolving, we're always iterating in civilization and certainly democracies 366 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 1: or governments or laws and rules. But I've definitely heard 367 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 1: and been disappointed that they didn't have a greater solution 368 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: when somebody's like, there's a better way to do this, 369 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: Like why would you invest in a company that's trying 370 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: to pat molecules? And I'm like, well, if they're new molecules, 371 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: it should be because that's a system and it drives 372 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 1: innovation and it protects, you know, the people who are 373 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: in some cases working years and years and years on 374 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:10,320 Speaker 1: something molecular that they think is unique. Um, how else 375 00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: will they be protected if not by a patent. I see. Okay, 376 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:15,879 Speaker 1: so we're getting in the weeds here is seeming at 377 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,720 Speaker 1: this point I just gotta drop back because I I 378 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: hope our audience is fully engaged here. But you know, 379 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: when you and I met, you know, you told me 380 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: a little your past, and then I have listened to 381 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: you speaking in other places, and so you know, I mean, 382 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 1: just hear you. I mean my understand as you grew 383 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: up in Chicago, but at the front end, when you're 384 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: a little kid, you were following your Peace Corps volunteer 385 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: parents around the world, and then your last years of 386 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: high school, you know, you were in Ghana in West Africa, 387 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: and then you spent a little time at the Maharishi 388 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 1: University or whatever. But meanwhile, you know, tell me in 389 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: the midst of all this, where you're you know, you 390 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: also mentioned having read the classic book Robert Masters and 391 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: Gene Houston's The Variety of Cyclic Experience. So so I mean, when, 392 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: when when do you start doing the psychelics? Are you 393 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: like a precocious thirteen year old doing it? Are you 394 00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: wait till you're in college? Or yeah? I was, I 395 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: was really although I've I've never been accused of being precocious, 396 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: but I guess that is the best word. God. It 397 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 1: must have been like shortly after my bar mitzvah, and 398 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: I didn't get this feeling of like now I'm a man, 399 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: like this rite of passage, and I'm like, what else 400 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 1: is there? And I remember ruffling through boxes in our 401 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 1: basement in Roger's Park in Chicago. Um, and I found 402 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 1: two books in my dad's collection. One was Ramdas is 403 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: the only Dance there is and the other one was 404 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,600 Speaker 1: The Diatic Cyclone by John C. Lily. So I must 405 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: have been, you know, um, thirteen and a half ish, 406 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 1: and I read them and I was like, what the 407 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: hell is this? You know, the Rabbi never told me 408 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: any of this stuff. UM. And that kind of began 409 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 1: the journey of just trying to read as much as possible. 410 00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 1: And then around fifteen six teen, I had the great 411 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: fortune of meeting of meeting Robert Masters in gene Houston. 412 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: They had become really dear friends with my best friend 413 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: in the world. He passed away a while ago. And yeah, 414 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,760 Speaker 1: that was the beginning of Oh, there's actually psychedelic therapeutic 415 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: protocols and you guys are playing with LSD in the Psyche. 416 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, my teen years it was um, you know, 417 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: pretty full on. Um. Yeah, it's funny. I found Ah. 418 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: I was up at my mom's in Michigan a few 419 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: months ago and she said, uh, hey, sam My, you 420 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,640 Speaker 1: know there's there was some water damage in the basement, 421 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 1: and go check out and see see what happened. And 422 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 1: I came across the book uh and the journal from 423 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: that time in history, So I was able to like 424 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: flip through hundreds of pages of quote unquote experiments I 425 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 1: was doing, um, you know, following uh, Bob and Jean's 426 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: book and other books I had accumulated at that time, uh, 427 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: with psychedelics. The other thing I found was a hard 428 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 1: drive with a bunch of bitcoins that me and my 429 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 1: older brother had and forgot about when we were buying 430 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: bitcoins are under a buck to buy other things. It 431 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,640 Speaker 1: was a pleasant surprise. It was a very pleasant surprise. 432 00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: Did anyone experience really stand out here in these years 433 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: that had some transformative impact or insight? Uh No, it's 434 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: like they've all kind of conflated generally, in you know, 435 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: the teen years, in the in the you know, the twenties, 436 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: was a lot of ceremony. I spent a lot of 437 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 1: time in the Amazon. I spent a lot of time 438 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 1: and you know, wherever there was a forest culture or 439 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 1: a culture that had medicine. Um. And then you know, 440 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:57,399 Speaker 1: personally just you know, tried everything. UM. So there's no 441 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: one great experience or one one transformative experience. It's kind 442 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,440 Speaker 1: of like there were hundreds and they all had meaning 443 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: in their own way. And I'm still working through it, um. 444 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: And I'm still petrified each time I do a substance, 445 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 1: even after all these years. But you know, also going 446 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 1: back to your younger years, I mean, I know you 447 00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: were getting involved in tech, but as it's true of 448 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: many people who maybe not about many, but at least 449 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: some of the people involved in psychedelics and people involved 450 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: in tech, many of them cut their teeth on entrepreneurship 451 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,480 Speaker 1: by doing things like selling weed or other drugs. Was 452 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 1: that your story as well, seeing it? Yes, it was. Um. 453 00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,320 Speaker 1: I was never you know, a drug dealer, but always 454 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: helped facility. No, I guess I was. You know, I 455 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: was selling like dying bags, and I always liked you know, cannabis, 456 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,879 Speaker 1: and I always liked you know, other molecules. It was 457 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: never a full time thing. It was just like I 458 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: had the ability to source and I had the ability 459 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: to share, and sometimes I make some money on that. 460 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, I guess technically in those early early early years. Um. 461 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:08,240 Speaker 1: It's funny though, because um, a family member maybe a 462 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: year ago, he's like, I read this thing in the 463 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: the paper. Is this this ecstasy and and helping vets? 464 00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: And I go yeah, and he's like is that what 465 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 1: you do? And I'm like, that's exactly what I'm doing. 466 00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: And he's like, ah, I always thought you were just 467 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: a drug dealer. Um, so now you're legitimate. Yes, yes, indeed, 468 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,560 Speaker 1: uh huh. Well let me ask you also. I remember 469 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: you said when we first smith this past summer, you said, 470 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 1: you know Ethan. You and I met before, and I 471 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: think it was at one of the early MAPS conferences 472 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,879 Speaker 1: in San Jose and I think ten and then I 473 00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: don't know you were you were you? Did you have 474 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 1: some table you're selling something back then? And and was 475 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: there something you told me about running like a psycholics 476 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,159 Speaker 1: arts gallery and Venice Beach? How far back do you 477 00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: go with this Psychelics thing? Yeah, I mean at least 478 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 1: on that that junk or I had opened the world's 479 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:05,160 Speaker 1: first psychedelic art gallery and medical marijuana dispensary in two 480 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: thousand and eight city. What were you doing with the 481 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,119 Speaker 1: psychedelic art gallery. Yeah, that was a I've always kind 482 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: of liked new new things. So I had exited a 483 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: company UM in Shanghai. I was living in Shanghai for 484 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: seven years, and I was like, what's next. And I 485 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: was kind of looking at California and my partners at 486 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 1: the time we're like, hey man, there's this green rush 487 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, I like, I like that's a 488 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 1: new business, that's a new area, and I like cannabis 489 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: and UM. I also really like art. Let's kind of 490 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: conflate the two UM and Yeah. So we opened the 491 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: world's first psychedelic art gallery medical marijuana dispensary. We hosted God, 492 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 1: I think we created like a dozen shows. Uh, We're 493 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: able to drive a lot of money to all the 494 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: nonprofits and psychedelics. I mean people would come in and cry. 495 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: Like they would walk into the the gallery and they'd 496 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: see the art, and then they'd walk into the dispensary 497 00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: side before they got to the backyard the Garden of Weeden, 498 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 1: and they'd be like, I never thought this would happen 499 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: in my lifetime. Um, I mean, little did they know 500 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: we kind of It was a sketchy time in cannabis 501 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: back then. From the FED side. There were a lot 502 00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 1: of raids happening. There was a lot of uncertainty. Um, 503 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: a fellow dispensary down the way I was rated, they 504 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: killed his dogs. They shot his dogs. It was just 505 00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: like it was just one of those things. It's like, well, 506 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: maybe the world isn't ready for this. It came to 507 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,959 Speaker 1: an end. Basically, I remember bringing everyone around a table, 508 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: the staff, my partners, and asking from a show of hands, 509 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: who wants to go to jail? And nobody raised their hand. 510 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 1: So basically, uh, you know, shifted to delivery because at 511 00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:01,560 Speaker 1: that time under prop to fifteen having a cannabis dispensary 512 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 1: with sketchy but so many people over those years, you know, 513 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: if they're not in jail, um are becoming public company CEOs, 514 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: joining scientific advisory boards. There's just been a huge shift. 515 00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: So I really cherished those years then because it taught 516 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: us so much and also, you know, we got to 517 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: create this space that allowed people to talk openly about 518 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: this just felt like a very different time. Yeah, I've 519 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: been thinking a lot now about the lessons and similar 520 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: and differences between the way that marijuana legalization and the 521 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: commercialization has evolved and how it's happening in psychedelics as well. 522 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:42,800 Speaker 1: And you know, you pointed out before that you know, 523 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 1: obviously to some extent, when you see these decrim initiatives 524 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: and legislation passing in places you know, first Denver, the 525 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: Oakland or recently Detroit of the statewide one in Oregon, 526 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: he's becoming models for elsewhere. There's sort of following the 527 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: model that we pioneered with first medical marijuana, marijuana legalization, 528 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,160 Speaker 1: and then when you see the growing role of money 529 00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:04,560 Speaker 1: coming in all albeit in some different ways. And so 530 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:06,200 Speaker 1: I'm curious. I mean, first of all, is there a 531 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: fair bit of overlap or people who have been invested 532 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,360 Speaker 1: in the marijuana space playing in every bigger role in 533 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 1: the psychelic space or is it still fairly separate, And 534 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: if so, why, I think there's definitely crossover um from 535 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: you know, I refer to them as cannabros, and you know, 536 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: there's crypto bros and other bros. It's kind of a 537 00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,720 Speaker 1: generalized archetype. But because of the success on the money 538 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: side of the cannabis playbook, i e. You first go 539 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:40,240 Speaker 1: public in Canada, then you presume your uplist to a 540 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: senior exchange NASDAC, New York Stock Exchange, etcetera. Cannabro saw 541 00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,560 Speaker 1: that and saw psychedelics and I said, oh, this is 542 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: gonna be the same. Some were good actors, many were not. 543 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: Many were You know what you hear is pump and dumps. 544 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: I think those have for the most part all been 545 00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,239 Speaker 1: eliminated because people are saying that this is more than 546 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: just the blip of a one time opportunity, that this 547 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: is going to be a vibrant, huge industry. So that's 548 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,880 Speaker 1: one side, and there's definitely that camp, and there's still 549 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 1: activity there. On the other side, where it's completely different, 550 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 1: is more of a biotech pharma kinda side to it. 551 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,640 Speaker 1: FDA trials being able to be reimbursed by insurance, you know, 552 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,000 Speaker 1: tons of research and can we create the drug or 553 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: can we create the system that allows us to build 554 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 1: a patient um So you're kind of seeing both and 555 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: it's shifting from month to month. I'm curious also whether 556 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: there is synergy or a competition between the growing legal 557 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: and legally commercialized markets. On the one hand and the 558 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 1: underground and illicit markets. You know, the first I think 559 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: major medical merill Wanna company was out of the UK, 560 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: GW pharmaceutical And then fast forward to about ten years 561 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,400 Speaker 1: ago and g W Pharmaceuticals trying to get a approval 562 00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: for its medical marijuana medicine, which is a very good 563 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,479 Speaker 1: thing to treat, you know, a type of epileptic condition 564 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 1: in children. Um, but they hire a former deputy drugs 565 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: are in the Bush administration to lobby against the broader 566 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 1: legalization of medical marijuana through the political process, and it's 567 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: just remarkably offensive. And I even see in the you know, 568 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,360 Speaker 1: in the current world, you see people who are involved 569 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: in the legal medical or you know, adult use marijuana 570 00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: markets basically pushing to ban homegrow of marijuana by individuals 571 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: or to push for tougher sanctions. I'm definitely starting to 572 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: see some of the same contentions happen around companies that 573 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 1: have psilocybin as a part of their you know, quote 574 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 1: unquote portfolio of i P that they're developing and watching, 575 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: you know, not just Oregon, but other states. You know, 576 00:33:55,240 --> 00:34:01,640 Speaker 1: go wait a minute, um, will psilocybin legal at the 577 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: state level before it gets through an f D A 578 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 1: Phase three trial, and what does that do for us? 579 00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: So it'll be very interesting in the same way you 580 00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: witness that with g W and their hiring practices, how 581 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,799 Speaker 1: companies who have psilocybin and their portfolio, how they're going 582 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:26,480 Speaker 1: to play that. When you and I first met, were 583 00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: sitting on your patio and I don't know if you 584 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 1: offered me a join or not. You know, but you 585 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: New York City and many other places you have these 586 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,840 Speaker 1: marijuana delivery services, and you pull out the menu of 587 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: what had been a marijuanna delivery service, but now it's 588 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: got six different types of not just you know, marijuana 589 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: chocolate bars, but you know, mushroom chocolate bars, psilocybin chocolate bars, 590 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 1: to C B, M, D M A, all sorts of 591 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 1: other concoctions that it just seems this extraordinarily booming um 592 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: black market in these products, which with which fortunately law 593 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,600 Speaker 1: enforcement doesn't seem overly concerned and we're not hearing much 594 00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,799 Speaker 1: in the way of people really getting hurt, although that's 595 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,640 Speaker 1: a risk. But what's your perception of what's going on 596 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: with respect to the illicit market and all these products. Now, yeah, 597 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: it's thriving. I mean not just similar to you know, 598 00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 1: cannabis is now you know, legal and the majority of 599 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 1: the US, and the black markets even bigger. I think 600 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: as it relates to, you know, just the delivery services 601 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,840 Speaker 1: in this city, and they're they're in every city, people 602 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:31,080 Speaker 1: started to say we should sell psychedelics too, and you know, 603 00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 1: I watched that because you know, I always keep a 604 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: keen eye into the gray and black markets, right, because 605 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,399 Speaker 1: those are strong signals. It's in a lot of ways 606 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,360 Speaker 1: the zeitgeist, right. So yeah, a lot of these delivery 607 00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:46,080 Speaker 1: services who were you know, doing pretty well selling cannabis 608 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,000 Speaker 1: illegally because you know, it wasn't legal in New York. 609 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: UM said, well, if we're breaking the law anyway, and 610 00:35:54,560 --> 00:36:00,040 Speaker 1: we can now sell micro dose mushroom caps at and 611 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,239 Speaker 1: margins and there's a demand for it, why wouldn't we. 612 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,760 Speaker 1: I think there was one I saw that in parentheses. 613 00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:13,600 Speaker 1: It was for micro dose psilocybin type product and they 614 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: were calling it Upper west Side zan X. I laughed, 615 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:21,759 Speaker 1: and it's like it was becoming so pervasive that, you know, 616 00:36:22,040 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 1: the delivery service who was focusing on that area gave 617 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:26,880 Speaker 1: it the label and then I saw it and I 618 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: was like, well, we were and I you know, I 619 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: was like, how did you come up with that? I 620 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,040 Speaker 1: was like, well, we were thinking Upper West Side divorces, 621 00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: but then we learned they all take xan x and 622 00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: now they're taking micro dos psilocybin and they're off the 623 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: xanax or other benzos, so we've just kept it Upper 624 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,239 Speaker 1: West Side zanex. So those are really really big signals. Well, 625 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 1: you you mentioned Oregon before, right, I mean Oregon. You know, 626 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,400 Speaker 1: for our listeners may people who know that Oregon in 627 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,200 Speaker 1: past two ballot initiatives um each of them by about 628 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: fifty six percent margins of victory. One was an old 629 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: drug d krim one that basically embraced the Portugal model 630 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: where you don't put people in jail for simple drug 631 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: possession of anything. And that one was led by my organization, 632 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: Drug Policy Alliance under my successors, together with locals and Oregon. 633 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 1: The other one was the Oregon Psychelics Initiative, which you 634 00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,360 Speaker 1: don't really shocked people on bypassing, and now there's a 635 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: huge investment and making sure this gets implemented correctly. You know, 636 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: the State of Oregon is set up a whole implementation 637 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:29,800 Speaker 1: board and agency. It's not just for medical therapeutic purposes 638 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,280 Speaker 1: in terms of curing you know, serious illness of PTSD. 639 00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,839 Speaker 1: It's even for general wellness conditions. So you know, one 640 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:38,719 Speaker 1: can do it without having been diagnosed with any sort 641 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: of significant mental illness. But I'm curious with respect to Oregon, 642 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:46,399 Speaker 1: what do you see? Are there going to be significant 643 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: commercial opportunities in Oregon? Is it going to be clinics? 644 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 1: How is it going to transform the world. Yeah, yeah, 645 00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,919 Speaker 1: nobody knows exactly, but there's a lot of money coming 646 00:37:55,960 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: into Oregon betting hedging that one will get a cultivation license, 647 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,520 Speaker 1: one will get you know, the equivalent of a dispensary 648 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: license or a clinic license. One will get the you know, 649 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: state level no bid contract to train the psychedelic assisted 650 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,200 Speaker 1: you know, therapists or trip sitters or facilitators. The labels 651 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: are changing. But it's all happening like kind of in 652 00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 1: the next year, like those quote unquote rules will be established. 653 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: And what's even more fathoming um is when I'm in 654 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,960 Speaker 1: meetings with other legislators or other state leaders or even 655 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: other governments. It's funny. It's like this isn't verbatim, but 656 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:44,760 Speaker 1: like somebody said, Oregon, what we're a bigger state. When's 657 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,080 Speaker 1: the deadline. Let's beat him to the punch. And then 658 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,720 Speaker 1: as we got into it, they realized, no, it's not cannabis. 659 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 1: Two point Oh, I'm guessing most of it as it 660 00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:57,879 Speaker 1: rolls out. Um, in Oregon and other states and other 661 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: other jurisdictions, will WILL WILL have a component of assistant therapy. Um. 662 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: How exactly that looks, no one knows exactly. But um, 663 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,440 Speaker 1: it's a very open group, all the leadership, all the 664 00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 1: different subcommittees. I mean, you can jump on a zoom 665 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 1: anytime and like watch it. You know, this living breathing 666 00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 1: revolution in the sense of granting psychedelics to you know, 667 00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:27,239 Speaker 1: constituents or citizens of that state kind of happen overnight. Um. 668 00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:30,520 Speaker 1: The other bullet point, or the last bullet point, which 669 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: might kind of up end it all, is this prevalence 670 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: of micro dosing and will a regulatory body, will the 671 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 1: powers that be allow that to happen? And might that 672 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,839 Speaker 1: be kind of an opening of the floodgates where yeah, 673 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 1: there's a little psychedelic in this, but it's safe and 674 00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:52,920 Speaker 1: it's sub perceptual and as long as you you know, 675 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,720 Speaker 1: you don't take the whole bottle or the whole tab 676 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 1: or you know, now you have this great technology that's 677 00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:01,840 Speaker 1: able to dose you via a patch or an implant 678 00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: or something else. Might that jump ahead of everything else? Yeah, 679 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:07,880 Speaker 1: because I mean, if you think about it, right, I 680 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 1: mean people talk about, you know, basically the pharmaceutical industry 681 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,560 Speaker 1: confirming a fundamental challenge because if in fact, these psychedelics 682 00:40:15,640 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: and m d m A turn out to be as 683 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:21,560 Speaker 1: efficacious in dealing with all forms of mental illness as 684 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: the promise suggests, it means that people who have been 685 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 1: taking daily antidepressants, anti daily anti anxiety drugs, daily, this 686 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: and that, for which you know, insurance companies are paying 687 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,279 Speaker 1: billions of dollars, and pharmacutic companies are making billions or 688 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,759 Speaker 1: tens of billions of dollars. Now people are going to 689 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: be getting better sometimes by using a substance just once 690 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:46,040 Speaker 1: or five or ten or twenty times in a therapeutic context, 691 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 1: which means that the amount of money that can be 692 00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:52,279 Speaker 1: made from that these are not repeat drugs. Essentially, So 693 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 1: the question becomes, I mean, first of all, are these 694 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:56,720 Speaker 1: new molecules are gonna be able to charge a fortune 695 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,640 Speaker 1: for these things? You know? B is the micro dose 696 00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 1: thing going to be the one that opens up where 697 00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,840 Speaker 1: you know, these things become widely consumed products, and and 698 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 1: that's where're gonna be the big money or is the 699 00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: truly big money gonna be about providing the clinics and 700 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:15,120 Speaker 1: the therapists and the standard certification and the support services 701 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: and the retreats. Five ten years from now, you will 702 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,440 Speaker 1: see everything you mentioned have a roll um. If someone 703 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,560 Speaker 1: you know cures themselves or at least lessons, whatever their 704 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: indication is, there could always be a continuation of whatever 705 00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:36,800 Speaker 1: the molecule is, either sub or quarterly or annually. But 706 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:40,400 Speaker 1: you know, humanity likes to have, you know, a single 707 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:42,800 Speaker 1: experience that makes them feel good, but then you know, 708 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 1: kind of support along the way. As far as clinics retreats, 709 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:50,879 Speaker 1: we're not doing any of those right now from the fund, 710 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: not that we don't believe in them or think there's 711 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,200 Speaker 1: a great value there. But there will be an interesting 712 00:41:56,719 --> 00:41:58,360 Speaker 1: you know, I'm already starting to see it in some 713 00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 1: ketamine roll ups where once these drugs, which is where 714 00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 1: it's all starting from our legal um, and they've gone 715 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 1: through their trials and they're reimbursable, will there be the 716 00:42:09,880 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: need for clinics outside of a hospital. UM. And that's 717 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: where your last question about psychotherapy is a really important one, 718 00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 1: because the presumption right now is at least the way 719 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,280 Speaker 1: the laws are being written is including the psychedelic assistant therapy. 720 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,239 Speaker 1: So I think that component is still going to stay there, 721 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,680 Speaker 1: and that will afford the continual scaling of you know, 722 00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 1: these retreats and these clinics. UM. I don't know if 723 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,480 Speaker 1: I answer to your question or just created a hundred 724 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:38,920 Speaker 1: more questions. No, I mean you sort of did, and yes, 725 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 1: and you did create a hundred more. But you know, 726 00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,239 Speaker 1: in THEA, which like Maps, is trying to figure out 727 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,759 Speaker 1: as quickly as possible how to get the big insurance 728 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:52,080 Speaker 1: companies and public health insurance to cover psychedelic assisted therapy, 729 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:53,800 Speaker 1: I think in the way that some of the Kenemy 730 00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,840 Speaker 1: treatment is now being covered, and so obviously that seems 731 00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:00,840 Speaker 1: pivotal because that's the potential source of billions and billions 732 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,440 Speaker 1: of dollars coming in to pay for all sorts of 733 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,239 Speaker 1: you know, psychedelic related stuff. Do you have any insights 734 00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,120 Speaker 1: about how likely and how fast it is to happen. 735 00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,920 Speaker 1: It's definitely a matter of when, not if, UM, I 736 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,279 Speaker 1: mean it's already happening with ketamine right. You know, even 737 00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,040 Speaker 1: when I had my dispensary, I figured out how to 738 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:27,080 Speaker 1: code things to reimburse some of my patients under prop 739 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 1: to fifteen, almost complete reimbursability. So I do think it's 740 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 1: a matter of when, not if, for that around psychedelics, 741 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:40,360 Speaker 1: because you know, at least in an THEA who you 742 00:43:40,440 --> 00:43:45,280 Speaker 1: had named, who's an amazing organization, they're doing it very smart, 743 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,120 Speaker 1: very tactfully. And as these drugs come into market, you 744 00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 1: know they'll be the ones who have set up the 745 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 1: right infrastructure and have played by the right rules and 746 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 1: have really listened. You know that you even mentioning ketamine 747 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:00,800 Speaker 1: right here. You know. One of those speakers at the 748 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,080 Speaker 1: Horizons conference, so I thought he had a great talk 749 00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,200 Speaker 1: was one of the leading ken amine therapist, Dr Gidabad, 750 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,279 Speaker 1: And part of her speech was this pointing out that 751 00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 1: some people think ketamine is just going to be a placeholder, 752 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:17,040 Speaker 1: that it's not the real psychedelic um once all these 753 00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:19,479 Speaker 1: other types of psilocybin and m d M A center 754 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:22,279 Speaker 1: stuff submerged. And she says, no, that's not going to 755 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,040 Speaker 1: be the case. And so I'm curious, I mean, do 756 00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,280 Speaker 1: you agree with her. Is kenemine just gonna keep growing, 757 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,320 Speaker 1: notwithstanding what happens on the n d M A and 758 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:33,320 Speaker 1: psilocybin and other fronts, And does it provide a model 759 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:35,160 Speaker 1: for the way these other things are going to evolve? 760 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:38,080 Speaker 1: On the latter question, it absolutely provides a model, because 761 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,920 Speaker 1: it's already happening, right, I mean right now if you 762 00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: go to academy clinic, not the majority, but several are 763 00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,960 Speaker 1: the ones I've worked with are able to fully reimburse. 764 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,799 Speaker 1: And you know, personally, a few years ago, I got 765 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,480 Speaker 1: lime disease, and you know, basically it was in bed 766 00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:58,000 Speaker 1: for a year, just totally knocked out. Then I experienced apathy. 767 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:01,719 Speaker 1: And apathy is the time like I would wake up 768 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,320 Speaker 1: and I would not care about anything. I was like, 769 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,040 Speaker 1: I remember waking up one day and going like, God, 770 00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,680 Speaker 1: I wish I cared enough even to commit suicide. It 771 00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:13,279 Speaker 1: was like nothing mattered, right, It's horrible, And it was 772 00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:15,840 Speaker 1: coming up on a holiday. So I called the you know, 773 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:18,960 Speaker 1: the doctor who's also my GP that I helped set 774 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:21,279 Speaker 1: up some of the first ketamine clinics, and I'm like, 775 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:23,200 Speaker 1: you know, I'll be in town. You want to, you know, 776 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:27,000 Speaker 1: grab a pointer let's meet up. And he's like absolutely, 777 00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:29,600 Speaker 1: and he's like, how's your how's your line? And I'm like, honestly, 778 00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 1: I got this this apathy thing. Um. He's like, all right, well, 779 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:36,120 Speaker 1: I'm booking you for a Monday, Wednesday, Friday session. Over 780 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,440 Speaker 1: the holidays offices are closed, but you know, I'm just 781 00:45:39,480 --> 00:45:43,719 Speaker 1: gonna do you full I V And that next Saturday, 782 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:48,120 Speaker 1: the apathy was completely gone. I was blown away, having 783 00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,000 Speaker 1: you know, explored ketamine for other things, and certainly having 784 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:56,040 Speaker 1: spent time, you know, in the club world, was pretty 785 00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:59,560 Speaker 1: familiar with the effects of it. Um. I just had 786 00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,880 Speaker 1: never did for an indication I had. It was magical 787 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,560 Speaker 1: and I don't know, like I didn't try m D 788 00:46:05,719 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 1: m A, I didn't try psilocybin, I didn't try anything else. 789 00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:12,480 Speaker 1: It was just a doctor who said, listen, I think 790 00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,799 Speaker 1: this could work for you. And I'm like, all right, well, 791 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,200 Speaker 1: worst cases, I'll get to hang out in the ca 792 00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,960 Speaker 1: hole for three days this Thanksgiving week. UM. So yeah, 793 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,600 Speaker 1: I don't think. I think every molecule has its place 794 00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:28,560 Speaker 1: based on the indication and then based on you know, 795 00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:32,160 Speaker 1: the other huge trend which I don't think we've talked about, 796 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,240 Speaker 1: which is you know, precision medicine, and just the fact 797 00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,120 Speaker 1: that we're getting really close to being able to say, Okay, 798 00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,400 Speaker 1: this is your thing based on this algorithm or this 799 00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:44,520 Speaker 1: machine learning algorithm, this is the drug you need, and 800 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:48,239 Speaker 1: this is the therapy you need. So that's going to 801 00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,000 Speaker 1: be pretty revolutionary in the next few years as well, 802 00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,759 Speaker 1: which will basically ameliorate this whole is one better than 803 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,319 Speaker 1: the other, well, one might be better than the other 804 00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:00,319 Speaker 1: based on who you are as a human and being 805 00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,879 Speaker 1: your genetic profile, your how your brain talks to your gut, 806 00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,080 Speaker 1: the whole set setting in matrix. But I don't think 807 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,239 Speaker 1: these others are going to replace ketamine or vice versa. 808 00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:13,560 Speaker 1: But let me take you where you were going right there, 809 00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:16,600 Speaker 1: which is looking the future. And you sad this earlier on. 810 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,440 Speaker 1: You know, it's not just going to be about psychedelics 811 00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:23,040 Speaker 1: and mental health. It's gonna be about psychedelics and other 812 00:47:23,120 --> 00:47:25,600 Speaker 1: types of health and looking at the component elements of 813 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,799 Speaker 1: the molecules within psychedelics. And so I'm curious, I mean, 814 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,399 Speaker 1: and when you're talking about these other things about greater 815 00:47:31,480 --> 00:47:36,880 Speaker 1: specificity and targeting of disease, and what's the relationship between 816 00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:41,399 Speaker 1: you know, this rapid evolution with psychedelics and uh, these 817 00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:45,360 Speaker 1: broader areas of medical care, the non mental illness conditions. 818 00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,839 Speaker 1: There's so much anecdotal information. There's a few companies working 819 00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:54,160 Speaker 1: on it right now, um that are preclinical. Um, well 820 00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:56,239 Speaker 1: that's not true. Not all are preclinical, but there's a 821 00:47:56,320 --> 00:47:59,480 Speaker 1: lot that are pre clinical who are not focusing on 822 00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:04,080 Speaker 1: the narrow of mental health. They're focusing on inflammation, they're 823 00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 1: focusing on brain degenerative disorders, they're focusing on um general health. 824 00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:15,080 Speaker 1: And that's going to be a big narrative as we're 825 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:22,200 Speaker 1: able to test that these molecules also help with CNS disorders, UM, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's. 826 00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,560 Speaker 1: It just doesn't have the same prominence as quote unquote 827 00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: mental health has because you know, again my argument that 828 00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:35,000 Speaker 1: it's the human condition. Um, everybody is dealing with some 829 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:39,680 Speaker 1: some level, some severe, uh some barely even noticeable, but 830 00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:43,240 Speaker 1: could be optimized mental health issue. So it's mid December, 831 00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,080 Speaker 1: December fifte and I was just checking out some of 832 00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,960 Speaker 1: these biggest companies and looking at their stock prices, and 833 00:48:49,160 --> 00:48:51,160 Speaker 1: just this week some of the biggest ones, I think 834 00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:53,560 Speaker 1: a tie which is like the eight pound guerilla of 835 00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,760 Speaker 1: psycholic investment funds and Compass that we were talking about, 836 00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,120 Speaker 1: and I think a few others, like the stock prices 837 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,720 Speaker 1: dive bonb this week. You know, what was that about? 838 00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:04,960 Speaker 1: Is it just a blip? Are we gonna keep seeing 839 00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:07,600 Speaker 1: these kind of things, or what's your take on it? 840 00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,799 Speaker 1: I think today was a combination of you know, today 841 00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,239 Speaker 1: was a significant day. Like you had mentioned a tie. 842 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,680 Speaker 1: You know, it was very interesting that the first you know, 843 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:22,360 Speaker 1: press release was about founders signing a voluntary uh memo 844 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,200 Speaker 1: saying they would stay in lock up another twenty four months. 845 00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:28,919 Speaker 1: Just explain stay in lock up to our audience. Yeah, 846 00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:31,840 Speaker 1: lock up is you know, in so many of these companies, 847 00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,640 Speaker 1: the ones you're seeing in public markets, they were in 848 00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:40,360 Speaker 1: most cases almost unanimously private companies. And when you invest 849 00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:44,920 Speaker 1: in a private company, um, because you're early, you're locked up. 850 00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:47,439 Speaker 1: Like even if the company goes public, you can't sell 851 00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:49,759 Speaker 1: your shares um And that has a lot to do 852 00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:53,879 Speaker 1: with compliance and SEC and other regulatory bodies. And that's 853 00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:57,480 Speaker 1: almost always true of the founders, right or anyone who's director, 854 00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:01,839 Speaker 1: you're they cannot sell their shares until a certain lock 855 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,640 Speaker 1: up period expires. And this isn't just psychedelics, This is 856 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,719 Speaker 1: any industry. But you know, there's a lot of retail investors, 857 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,919 Speaker 1: there's a lot of institutional investors who are like, well, 858 00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,759 Speaker 1: does the management believe in this company? And I think 859 00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,040 Speaker 1: that was the ovation that came out of a tie 860 00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,279 Speaker 1: this morning that they do and they're going to hold 861 00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,279 Speaker 1: for another two years and not sell a single share. 862 00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:27,680 Speaker 1: In theory, I mean, there's you could definitely deconstruct the 863 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,320 Speaker 1: memo and see that there's ways to get out of that, 864 00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:33,560 Speaker 1: but um, that was the narrative they lead with. Now 865 00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,320 Speaker 1: why it dipped in value, I think a lot of 866 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,719 Speaker 1: that had to do with the fact that a lot 867 00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:42,120 Speaker 1: of lock ups expired today and a lot of people 868 00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:45,160 Speaker 1: wanted to take their gains or not take more losses. 869 00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:49,480 Speaker 1: And that happens in every industry and anything that's public 870 00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,520 Speaker 1: from time to time. So I do think this is 871 00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:58,320 Speaker 1: a blip. It's also hard to argue that it's something 872 00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,759 Speaker 1: other than that, because how much data do we have 873 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:04,680 Speaker 1: if we call it, you know, psychedelic public markets, we 874 00:51:04,760 --> 00:51:06,600 Speaker 1: have what a couple of years of it. You're gonna 875 00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,640 Speaker 1: look to see n s, You're gonna look at biotech 876 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,319 Speaker 1: to try and to correlate it, but it's still too 877 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:15,320 Speaker 1: early to really qualify if this is like the future, 878 00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:17,920 Speaker 1: just because today was a sell off day for for 879 00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:21,000 Speaker 1: some on the flip side. I can show you, you know, uh, 880 00:51:21,320 --> 00:51:24,920 Speaker 1: four seventeen other stocks that all rose by ten to 881 00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:30,080 Speaker 1: in psychedelics did I don't do. I don't really have 882 00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:34,440 Speaker 1: the bandwidth to day trade I wish. UM. I mean, 883 00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:38,160 Speaker 1: we definitely watch it for sentiment, but we're focused on 884 00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:43,400 Speaker 1: private companies. We're usually like seed to a so often 885 00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:47,520 Speaker 1: you know, well before there's a liquidity event, which is 886 00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:51,000 Speaker 1: often okay, hey it's liquid, there's money, it's it's now 887 00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:55,080 Speaker 1: it's public and it's on the nastact that kind of narrative. Um. 888 00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:59,040 Speaker 1: But we don't focus on on public companies in the 889 00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:03,120 Speaker 1: fund and way too busy just talking to founders and 890 00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:07,080 Speaker 1: going through decks and helping strategize to uh to be 891 00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:10,320 Speaker 1: a day trader. But if I did, today would have 892 00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:12,920 Speaker 1: been the day to do. You know. I I was 893 00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:18,040 Speaker 1: listening to uh, your colleague Lindsay Hoover being asked, you know, 894 00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:20,120 Speaker 1: how do you figure out what to invest in? And 895 00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:22,040 Speaker 1: she said, well, you know, it's kind of like you know, 896 00:52:22,160 --> 00:52:25,040 Speaker 1: with real estate, it's location, location, location, and when you're 897 00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:27,640 Speaker 1: investing in startups, it's the team, the team, the team. 898 00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:30,680 Speaker 1: Is there more to say beyond that about when you're 899 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,440 Speaker 1: trying to make your choices and who you're gonna put 900 00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:37,320 Speaker 1: money on. Uh No, Lindsay really summed it up clearly, 901 00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,800 Speaker 1: obviously more nuanced, but you know, you bet on the 902 00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:44,480 Speaker 1: jockey and not the horse, and there's you know, a 903 00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,879 Speaker 1: million business metaphors to it. But yeah, we always start 904 00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:52,120 Speaker 1: with the team. Sometimes we'll see some amazing I p 905 00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:57,640 Speaker 1: or an amazing novel novelty and go to market strategy 906 00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:00,680 Speaker 1: that doesn't have the team yet. Um, so we'll do 907 00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:03,920 Speaker 1: some matchmaking, but we always like to start with the 908 00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,440 Speaker 1: people and the humans who you know, we're entrusting, you know, 909 00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:11,040 Speaker 1: our limited partners money to make them a return and 910 00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,560 Speaker 1: or we're entrusting them to do the right thing. And 911 00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,440 Speaker 1: that's that's never going to be an algorithm quite yet. 912 00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:21,160 Speaker 1: Um maybe in a year we'll dow it all out, 913 00:53:21,280 --> 00:53:24,160 Speaker 1: but uh yeah, team is you know, it's the people. 914 00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:26,040 Speaker 1: That's still the world we live in. So we always 915 00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,239 Speaker 1: start with the team. Yeah, you know, I seeming I 916 00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:29,960 Speaker 1: saw you Cuote. I don't know if you're quoting somebody 917 00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:31,960 Speaker 1: else or making this up to yourself when you say 918 00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:36,080 Speaker 1: something like we're in the business of medicalizing the mystical um, 919 00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:38,120 Speaker 1: and I guess that's as we make clear, that's not 920 00:53:38,239 --> 00:53:40,560 Speaker 1: all of it. Well, listen to Seeming. I'm grateful to 921 00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:43,959 Speaker 1: Leonard Picard's for introducing us, and it's a pleasure getting 922 00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:46,279 Speaker 1: to know you. I look forward to many more and 923 00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,399 Speaker 1: also the great success of your Jails fund. So thank 924 00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:52,120 Speaker 1: you ever so much for joining me and our Psychoactive 925 00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,600 Speaker 1: listeners today. It's my absolute pleasure. Ethan, thank you as well. 926 00:53:55,880 --> 00:54:00,560 Speaker 1: Have a great rest of your night. Join me next 927 00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,719 Speaker 1: week when I speak with Cirston Smith, a research or 928 00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:07,280 Speaker 1: at the National Institute on Drug Abuse who's been studying creatum, 929 00:54:07,480 --> 00:54:10,640 Speaker 1: the fascinating drug out of Southeast Asia which millions of 930 00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:14,080 Speaker 1: Americans are now using to deal with drug dependencies, pain, 931 00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,600 Speaker 1: or simply to improve their mood. You know, if I 932 00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:19,560 Speaker 1: didn't think creatum was going to be relevant, I wouldn't 933 00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,120 Speaker 1: be sitting here talking to you. I mean relevant on 934 00:54:22,280 --> 00:54:26,000 Speaker 1: many different levels, both creating products, proliferating in real world 935 00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:31,600 Speaker 1: studying therapeutics such that there's like a medicinal creatum situation 936 00:54:31,680 --> 00:54:34,600 Speaker 1: going on. Similar to cannabis again. You know it's not 937 00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:37,960 Speaker 1: even my gut. If I thought it was not helping people, 938 00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:41,719 Speaker 1: I would be working on something else. Subscribe to Psychoactive now, 939 00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:43,919 Speaker 1: see it, don't miss it. If you'd like to share 940 00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:47,080 Speaker 1: your own stories, comments or ideas, please leave us a 941 00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:53,080 Speaker 1: message at eight three three seven seven nine sixty. That's 942 00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:58,840 Speaker 1: one eight three three psycho zero. You can also email 943 00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:02,000 Speaker 1: us at Psychoactive of at protozoa dot com, or find 944 00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:04,800 Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Ethan Nadelman. And if you couldn't 945 00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:07,360 Speaker 1: keep track of all this, find the information in the 946 00:55:07,400 --> 00:55:11,720 Speaker 1: show notes. Psychoactive is a production of I Heart Radio 947 00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:15,919 Speaker 1: and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted by me Ethan Nadelman. It's 948 00:55:15,960 --> 00:55:20,160 Speaker 1: produced by Katcha Kumkova and Ben Kibrick. The executive producers 949 00:55:20,239 --> 00:55:24,480 Speaker 1: are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel, Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronovski 950 00:55:24,600 --> 00:55:28,200 Speaker 1: for Protozoa Pictures, Alex Williams and Matt Frederick for I 951 00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:32,120 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and me Ethan Naedelman. Our music is by 952 00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:35,400 Speaker 1: Ari Belusian and a special thanks to a vi Vit Brio, 953 00:55:35,480 --> 00:55:38,200 Speaker 1: Seph Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Beatty,