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Speaker 1: Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. Ladies and gentlemen,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supreme. I mean

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Speaker 1: it's Quest Love and we have teams Supreme with us. Yea, hello,

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Speaker 1: how are you to day?

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Speaker 2: I am doing well, sir? How are you great?

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Speaker 1: Is that a new microphone?

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Speaker 3: Man?

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Speaker 2: It's like every day every time we do the show,

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Speaker 2: you you look at me more.

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Speaker 1: Not something new.

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Speaker 4: It's not new though.

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Speaker 1: It's like we're meeting for the first time exactly.

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Speaker 2: Just looked at me.

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Speaker 1: It's like we know each other since we were thirteen.

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Speaker 1: I'll start a sugar Steve.

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Speaker 5: How you doing, man, I'm doing great. Nice to see

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Speaker 5: you and me are nice to see your team.

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Speaker 1: That sounds like a deflection. How you really? We're all

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Speaker 1: of it all right. Now we're gonna rename.

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Speaker 2: You see.

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Speaker 5: Sugar Sugars, Double Sugars.

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Speaker 1: Can we start calling you cannot do this on my watch, man,

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Speaker 1: I'm not because I'm gonna.

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Speaker 5: Thank you for your concern. I'm going cold Turkey on

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Speaker 5: rock Cookie del I'm gonna be fine.

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Speaker 2: You are too old to be eating that. That's crazy.

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Speaker 5: I'm done with all that.

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Speaker 4: I'm done with it all right, Steve I'm now.

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Speaker 1: Implement some sugarless snacks in your day. To me, it'll

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Speaker 1: it'll work for you. Bill. How's life.

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Speaker 3: Everything's good.

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Speaker 1: I can't play I'm cool and anything. Fine.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, man, everything's cool over here. We're just chilling. Everybody's uh.

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Speaker 4: We staying staying low, staying healthy.

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Speaker 1: Were good. That's good? All right? Well, ladies and gentlemen,

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Speaker 1: I will say, probably during the pandemic, not only for me, well,

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Speaker 1: I will probably speak for the team. We probably watched

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Speaker 1: or revisited more content from film and TV in the

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Speaker 1: pandemic than we normally have. And and I will personally

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Speaker 1: say that I have a new appreciation for the teams

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Speaker 1: that make film. It's not just about the director just

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Speaker 1: about a particular actor or actress that you like. You

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Speaker 1: have to consider the producer of the cinematographer, the lighting director,

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Speaker 1: and most importantly, the editing of the film. And so

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Speaker 1: I will say that, as far as our guest is concerned,

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Speaker 1: started out his assent into the professional career of filmmaking

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Speaker 1: as an editor. First of all, in the groundbreaking what

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Speaker 1: I call one of the first hip hop films, Style Wars,

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Speaker 1: not to mention as an editor for some of my

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Speaker 1: favorite Spike Lee films like Mobetta, Blues, Junkle Fever, Juice, Clockers,

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Speaker 1: Girls Six, his documentaries for Little Girls, both of the

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Speaker 1: what I would call the New Orleans documentaries for the Levies,

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Speaker 1: not to mention also, I didn't realize Hooker's on the Point.

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize that Wow, you.

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Speaker 6: On the stroll holes on a roll.

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Speaker 4: Yes, I see, but the name remains the same.

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Speaker 1: Candy She So, oh my god, you like memorize this film, dude,

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Speaker 1: And you don't understand, bro, Me and my homies used to.

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Speaker 4: Watch because this is like I'm in like high school, right,

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Speaker 4: So me and my homies watch Hookers at the Point,

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Speaker 4: and then you come to school the next day and

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Speaker 4: know all that we'll be saying all the lines and classes.

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Speaker 4: I would like to.

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Speaker 7: Say that Hookers at the Point transcends all things.

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Speaker 1: I also because both of my.

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Speaker 3: Friends about Hooking the Point, like in a different way,

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Speaker 3: but I definitely watch them.

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Speaker 1: This makes an official that Bill and are the same person. God, dude, O, guys, guys, guys,

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Speaker 1: hang on Inton is powerful. Shirley Chisholm and his forays

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Speaker 1: into uh directing documentaries, not to eyes on the Prize,

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Speaker 1: which I especially in light of uh Black Messiah and Jesus,

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Speaker 1: Uh Jesus in the Black Messiah movie, him directing the

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Speaker 1: Eyes on the Prize film too. I'm sorry, Eyes on

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Speaker 1: the Prize too, of which uh the footage of that

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Speaker 1: film was used in in in uh in that particular film.

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Speaker 1: But there's also uh the Mister Soul documentary and his

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Speaker 1: his latest uh M l k FBI, which weighs heavily

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Speaker 1: into explores the what we can say, the harassment uh

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Speaker 1: in the monitoring of the jack Er Hoover led Bureau

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Speaker 1: into the life and uh kind of the affairs of

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Speaker 1: Martin Luther King Jr. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to

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Speaker 1: Quest Lifts, Sam Pollard, thank you. Okay, now back to

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Speaker 1: hookers on the point.

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Speaker 3: My god, what happened to.

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Speaker 2: Introver for you, sir, I'm sure terrible.

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Speaker 4: You've been out there fucking I even fucking.

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Speaker 8: Whole.

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Speaker 3: I don't memorizing, man, Bren, this is man.

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Speaker 1: I got a stage reading.

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Speaker 3: Wow. Man, she had to tone everything down.

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Speaker 4: Made an impact.

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Speaker 1: So how's it going right now? How are you doing?

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Speaker 3: I'm good, man, I'm pretty good. You know. I'm working

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Speaker 3: on a new film about Arthur ash Wow. Yeah, hoping

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Speaker 3: to kind of set by June and you know, developing

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Speaker 3: some other stuff.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'll let our I'll let our listeners know that

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Speaker 1: you and I are actually partnering up for hopefully, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the near future, will have the definitive

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Speaker 1: film about the Negro League. You know, I've been pounding

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Speaker 1: the pavement together, pitching to various companies and whatnot, So

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Speaker 1: that's very exciting for me. Yeah, I'll ask. As I

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Speaker 1: said at the top, I didn't realize how important or

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Speaker 1: how instrumental editors are to a film. You know, a

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Speaker 1: lot of the times, like people that aren't you know,

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Speaker 1: film buffs or whatnot, they just tend to think that

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Speaker 1: the director has complete control of everything, the screenwriting, everything,

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Speaker 1: but you know, almost feel as though the editor has

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Speaker 1: the hardest job of setting the tone. So I'll ask you,

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Speaker 1: first of all, as an editor, the general rule that

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Speaker 1: I've been taught is that once a film is done,

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Speaker 1: you're basically to hand your entire footage to your editor

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Speaker 1: and kind of sight unseen, just let them do their

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Speaker 1: thing and not micromanaged. Is that necessarily true or like,

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Speaker 1: what is the true job of an editor?

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Speaker 3: Well, I would I would say this, I would say

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Speaker 3: in the fiction world, you know, when you when you're

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Speaker 3: doing editing a fiction film, you're given a script and

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Speaker 3: you know, and everything that they shoot in that script,

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Speaker 3: you basically know exactly how to put together. Now, it

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Speaker 3: can change when you're sitting down editing sequences together, but

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Speaker 3: usually most directors leave you alone with a fiction film

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Speaker 3: that's sort of put together what we call the first

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Speaker 3: rough cut, you know, and then they come in and

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Speaker 3: they give reactions to everything you've cut outs for changes

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Speaker 3: and stuff, so that becomes a director's cut, you know.

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Speaker 3: So that's how it works in fiction film and in

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Speaker 3: the documentary world. The thing that one of the reasons

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Speaker 3: I became such a lover of documentaries is because, as

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Speaker 3: an editor, specifically, what you're speaking to a mirror. Many times,

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Speaker 3: when I was beginning to edit a documentary, the director

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Speaker 3: would come in with lots of footage and say, I

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Speaker 3: have this great idea to tell this story about hip

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Speaker 3: hop and break dancing and rap music, and I'm not

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Speaker 3: quite sure the order, but here's the footage, and then

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Speaker 3: they walk away and they give you, you know, give

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Speaker 3: me four or five, six months, seven months sometimes to

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Speaker 3: create the sequences, you know, and you're basically trying to

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Speaker 3: in some ways as the editor, read the director's mind

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Speaker 3: to get a sense of what the director is looking

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Speaker 3: for as you're shaping the sequences. Now, sometimes in the

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Speaker 3: documentary's the director comes in or he calls in and

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Speaker 3: he wants to see sequences to see where you're going

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Speaker 3: before you put the whole thing together, and you show

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Speaker 3: it to him or her and they react to it

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Speaker 3: and you make changes. But really in the furms of

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Speaker 3: the documentary, it's really the editors medium. The editor becomes

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Speaker 3: with the documentary much more so than with the features.

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Speaker 3: They become sort of the surrogate directors because they're shaping

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Speaker 3: the story arc, they're shaping the tone, the emotional tone.

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Speaker 3: They're shaping me sort of the up and downs of

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Speaker 3: the film as it unfolds. So, you know, as a

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Speaker 3: young editor, that's why I mean, I was I was

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Speaker 3: pretty shy back then, so the idea of being a

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Speaker 3: director didn't then entice me. It was the idea that

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Speaker 3: I had all this footage. And you know the big

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Speaker 3: thing about editing documentaries is that you can hit a

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Speaker 3: home run. You can hear, you can hear, you can

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Speaker 3: hit a ball that just pop out, and you could

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Speaker 3: completely fail. And uh, you know that's the responsibility as

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Speaker 3: a documentary that you have to take on, understanding that

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Speaker 3: sometimes a director to walk in and say that you

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Speaker 3: have to see your first cut. Ah, Sam, this is

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Speaker 3: exactly what I was thinking about. This is my vision

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Speaker 3: of the film. You found my vision. Or they can

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Speaker 3: walk in into the editing room and they'll say I

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Speaker 3: have to look at your cut. They'll say, oh, Sam,

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Speaker 3: that's terrible. You didn't understand anything I was trying to

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Speaker 3: do with this footage. We're gonna have to start all

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Speaker 3: over again. I've been on both sides of the of

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Speaker 3: the of those polls. You know, when I was young,

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Speaker 3: I would be like, oh my god, I'm terrible. Nobody

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Speaker 3: loves me. It doesn't work. As i've gotten older, that's

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Speaker 3: part of the process. You realize that's part of the process.

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Speaker 3: You're never going to make it right the first time.

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Speaker 3: That's why it's called re editing and re editing. I

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Speaker 3: mean you listed the films like that edited for Spike,

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Speaker 3: and even on the feature films, I never made a

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Speaker 3: cut that Spike completely said, oh it's one hundred percent work. Well, Sam, no, chick.

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Speaker 3: It just doesn't work that way. There's always going to

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Speaker 3: be changes.

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Speaker 4: Has there ever been a time where in your editing

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Speaker 4: career where you know, like you said, director comes to

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Speaker 4: you and says, hey, I want to tell this story

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Speaker 4: about breakdancing and hip hop or whatever, and so they

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Speaker 4: give you all this footage. But then during your editing

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Speaker 4: you kind of start putting together and you see, I

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Speaker 4: know this is what he thinks this is about, but

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Speaker 4: I think there's a bigger story that can be told

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Speaker 4: that maybe he's missing or maybe now when I have

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Speaker 4: all these pieces together, he may think that it's about,

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Speaker 4: you know, just hip hop and breakdancing, but there is

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Speaker 4: probably a deeper narrative that is starting to evolve as

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Speaker 4: I put this together. Has that ever happened?

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Speaker 1: How much leeway are you giving all the time?

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Speaker 3: That happens all the time an editor, As a creative editor,

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Speaker 3: you have to be open to the idea of seeing

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Speaker 3: the story in a different way and taking on that responsibility.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna say, you say to yourself, should I show

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Speaker 3: it to the director this way? Because I think it's worked?

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Speaker 3: So should I say, Well, I'm not sure it works,

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Speaker 3: let me show it to the way he asked me

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Speaker 3: to do it. I have the I always had the

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Speaker 3: tendency to show it to him the way I thought

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Speaker 3: it would work better, you know, and that you know,

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Speaker 3: that's part of the gamble. Sometimes you show it to

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Speaker 3: him and they say yeah. Sometimes you shoot them they

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Speaker 3: say no, that's how it works.

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Speaker 2: I just wanted for MLK FBI. Was it the decision

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Speaker 2: to not show the commentator the folks who were commentating's face.

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Speaker 2: Was that a SAM decision or was that just like

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Speaker 2: something that y'all had to established because I was noticing

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Speaker 2: and that was like a big different in a lot

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Speaker 2: of the documentaries that I see these days.

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Speaker 3: In that case, that was a SAM decision. Before we

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Speaker 3: even shot, I had said to the producer Ben Henden

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Speaker 3: that I didn't want anybody on camera. I wanted to

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Speaker 3: all be voiceover because I had seen a film that

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Speaker 3: Amyl was involved in the music for a black power mixtape,

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Speaker 3: you know, and I and they had no voice They

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Speaker 3: had nobody on camera in that film. I remembered that.

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Speaker 3: So when I got to do this one, I said,

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Speaker 3: we don't show anybody on camera. We're going to do

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Speaker 3: it all voiceover. And you know, that was a gamble,

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Speaker 3: but I was willing to take it.

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Speaker 1: You know, what was it?

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Speaker 4: What was the artistic kind of choice? What drove that decision?

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Speaker 3: You know? I felt I felt that in this particular film,

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Speaker 3: I wanted people who were either close confidence or doctor King,

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Speaker 3: or whose stories could talk about the mythology, the built

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Speaker 3: and growing mythology, the FBI, and I just felt like

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Speaker 3: I wanted people to not see people on camera. I

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Speaker 3: just wanted them to be immersed in the footage and

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Speaker 3: hear the voiceover.

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Speaker 1: That's what they do.

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Speaker 3: What happens when you put camera people on camera sometimes

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Speaker 3: it can it can break the emotional momentum of the footage,

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Speaker 3: you know. So I felt like, no, keep them, keep

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Speaker 3: them off camera, keep the footage, keep the archival footage

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Speaker 3: front and centers of people will engage. Now, as you

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Speaker 3: saw in the epilogue, we did show their faces when

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Speaker 3: they sort of wrapped up about what they thought about

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Speaker 3: the tape being released in twenty twenty seven. Now, I

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Speaker 3: would say that wasn't my idea. I thought the epilogue

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Speaker 3: is should be all voice over too. But the editor,

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Speaker 3: this was Laura Thomas Selley, she had the idea we

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Speaker 3: should put them on camera, So when I saw the

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Speaker 3: cut and she put them on camera, I said, Wow,

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Speaker 3: I wish I could take credit for this, but.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because it was a payoff.

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Speaker 1: It was like a break payoff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: fell down my own rabbit hole and just happened to

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Speaker 1: click on Black Power Mixtape. So apparently I won a

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Speaker 1: Swedish Oscar didn't know that she did know they had.

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Speaker 1: Apparently I won a gold Goold Bandage Award. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: would have to. Yeah, this is the second time I

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Speaker 1: found out I won something and wasn't told. Uh. Oh,

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Speaker 1: this very web this very podcast won a Webby and

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Speaker 1: we weren't told. So there's there's a history of that people. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: West Supreme, we win in awards and you don't even know.

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Speaker 2: Trying to keep us down the man you know about.

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Speaker 1: That fan keep it us on, Sam. What what brought

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Speaker 1: you to the film world or a passion? I'll say

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Speaker 1: that mostly like from my point of view and my observation,

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Speaker 1: people easily jump into music, people easily jump into sports,

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Speaker 1: but I rarely hear of people successfully having a passion

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Speaker 1: for film and jumping into that world and like making

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Speaker 1: a living and having a fruitful career in it. So

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Speaker 1: what started yours.

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Speaker 3: Well here, I was a young man who grew up

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Speaker 3: in East Tarlow. I was going to Blue College with

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Speaker 3: the majoring in marketing. I was in my junior year

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Speaker 3: and one day I looked around and I saw myself

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Speaker 3: being miserable taking all these marketing andstic statistics courses. And

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Speaker 3: I said, Jesus, I got to find some after school

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Speaker 3: activity to do. I just I can't handle this. So

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Speaker 3: I walked across the street to the counselor's office. I

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Speaker 3: saw my counselor's wonderful African American lady, and I said,

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Speaker 3: I was looking for an after school in turn internship.

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Speaker 3: And she said, well, what are your interests? And I said,

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Speaker 3: one of the things I really loved growing up in

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Speaker 3: my teens, I loved watching all these old Hollywood movies,

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Speaker 3: you know. I watched all those Warner Brothers and MGM

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Speaker 3: and Columbia pictures and RKO movies, Arko Studio movies, and

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Speaker 3: I love them. So she said. There was a PBS

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Speaker 3: station in New York City WNAT in nineteen sixty eight.

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Speaker 3: After Doctor King's assassination. This felt it was important to

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Speaker 3: get more people of color behind the scenes shooting editing,

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Speaker 3: taking sound producing, and she said that they had a

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Speaker 3: one year workshop every year from sixty eight this was

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Speaker 3: nineteen seventy one, and they had on Tuesday nights they

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Speaker 3: would have these classes from six to ten where professionals,

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Speaker 3: professional editor is, professional cinematographers, professional sound people, professionals producers

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Speaker 3: would come in and teach you about the process of

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Speaker 3: making television and films. And then on the weekends you

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Speaker 3: would go out with your crew group of people. There

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Speaker 3: was like fifteen of us. They would pair us off.

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Speaker 3: We'd go out and shoot little films. Then we'd go

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Speaker 3: into come back to an editing space, and we'd learned

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Speaker 3: how to edit these films together. So when she first

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Speaker 3: proposed that to me, I said, my response to her

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Speaker 3: was I like watching movies, but I don't really care

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Speaker 3: about how to make them. I don't care. But she

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Speaker 3: was very persuasive. She got me to have an interview

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Speaker 3: and I got accepted to this program. And I did

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Speaker 3: that for one year. And the thing that I got

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Speaker 3: attracted to wasn't the shooting, wasn't the producing, wasn't the

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Speaker 3: sound mixing. It was the editing. Because I could be

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Speaker 3: in a dark room, I could by yourself. Nobody could

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Speaker 3: see me make mistakes. If I made a mistake, I

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Speaker 3: could undo the foodge and splice it back together because

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Speaker 3: we were cutting on film. And at the end of

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Speaker 3: that workshop, I said I was interested in trying. They

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Speaker 3: said they'd try to find you a job, and I said,

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Speaker 3: I was interested in finding a job in editing. And

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Speaker 3: one day I was working the summer of seventy two,

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Speaker 3: I was working at a marketing firm on thirty third

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Speaker 3: in Park Avenue, and my mother called me and said

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Speaker 3: that this production manager called and said they were looking

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Speaker 3: to interview me to be an apprentice editor on a

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Speaker 3: low budget feature film called Ganjia and Heads, directed by

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Speaker 3: Bill Gunn. Bill Yeah, Bill Gunn, And most of the

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Speaker 3: crew was African American, but the editor was this Jewish guy.

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Speaker 3: His sister was this young white girl from Kentucky. So

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Speaker 3: I went and had an interview with this editor and

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Speaker 3: I got hired in nineteen seventy two. It's my first

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Speaker 3: first job.

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Speaker 4: And then Spike, he remade, that is the sweet blood

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Speaker 4: of Jesus.

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Speaker 3: He did it, the sweet blood of Jesus. Yeah, yeah, okay.

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Speaker 1: Well you mentioned w ne Et earlier, did you were

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Speaker 1: you interning there or.

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Speaker 3: Just they had the workshop there. The workshop was part

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Speaker 3: of NAT.

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Speaker 1: So did you have any interaction with like the well

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Speaker 1: you directed Mister Soul, but the original Soul show, Like.

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Speaker 3: Did you work at all? No, it didn't work on

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Speaker 3: it all. It was it was you know, it had

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Speaker 3: been canceled. By the time I got into that program,

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Speaker 3: it was sixty nine to seventy two, So by the

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Speaker 3: time I left the program, he had been canceled. I

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Speaker 3: used to watch it all the time. Yeah, what about.

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Speaker 1: Well, they had like a lot of black productions. I

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Speaker 1: remember you remember a show called Rebop or.

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Speaker 3: That was rethought. Was not in New York, it was

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Speaker 3: in Massachusetts, Oh okay, But in New York they had

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Speaker 3: Black Journal, they had Miss had Soul, they had like

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Speaker 3: it is Gil Noble on ABC. Bill was to produce

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Speaker 3: On Soul and some of the first African producers who

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Speaker 3: worked for Black journals, like Tony Batton and Saint Clair Bourne.

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Speaker 3: You know who I used to have who I who

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Speaker 3: became one of my mentors later in my career.

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Speaker 1: That's what I wanted to know, Like, who were your well,

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Speaker 1: it's contemporaries at least starting out with you at the

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Speaker 1: same time, like I know that Uh uh what's his name?

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Speaker 1: Uh director Dickerson? No, Uh, what's her name's father?

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Speaker 3: Uh?

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Speaker 4: God, that's uh.

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Speaker 1: What's your names? Father?

360
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Speaker 3: Stand was already director and soul in Black Journal. By

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Speaker 3: the time I got to the business, Sam, Sam was okay.

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Speaker 1: But what I wanted to know was like, was there

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Speaker 1: uh like a crew of view as young black up

364
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Speaker 1: starts trying to get into film or was it just

365
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Speaker 1: all of you independently treading in?

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Speaker 3: The program I was in was like fifteen that us.

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Speaker 3: We're all African American, and some of us, you know,

368
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,159
Speaker 3: got into the business. Some people went to CBS, some

369
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Speaker 3: people with the ABC, some people freelance like I did.

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Speaker 3: That was the crew I was with, you know. And

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Speaker 3: then after I did the six months as an apprentice

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Speaker 3: editor on God and Hess, that same editor who hired

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Speaker 3: me then made me his assistant and I was his

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Speaker 3: assistant for three years from twenty two twenty three, twenty

375
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Speaker 3: four to twenty five years old. George Bowers No, No,

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Speaker 3: I met George right around seventy five. Had I sort

377
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Speaker 3: of was looking for a job and I went to

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Speaker 3: this editing room and George Bowers was editing a film

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Speaker 3: called Campdown on Cassini directed by Assy Davis with Ruby

380
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Speaker 3: d and Greg Morris from Mission Impossible. George turned me

381
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Speaker 3: on to doing a little film, had me he hired.

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Speaker 3: He got me hired to do a little film about

383
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Speaker 3: the first three black mayors of major cities, Tom Bradley

384
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Speaker 3: of Los Angeles, Coleman, Coleman Young of the Detroit Accident

385
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Speaker 3: of Atlanta. And it was being directed by David Parks,

386
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Speaker 3: Gordon Parks's son.

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Speaker 1: Wow, oh wow, okay.

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Speaker 3: And I edited it that when I was like twenty

389
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Speaker 3: six years old. And then George hired me to edit

390
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Speaker 3: some films for him, and then he moved out to

391
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Speaker 3: California to direct some low budget features. That in nineteen

392
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Speaker 3: eighty I went out to la and directed and edited

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Speaker 3: it for him a film. I don't know if you

394
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Speaker 3: remember this film, Body and Soul with Leon Isaac Kennedy.

395
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Speaker 4: And yes, yeah, I know.

396
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Speaker 3: I edited that film in nineteen eighty.

397
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know this. I know of this film. Yeah,

398
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Speaker 1: I was at the time in the seventies. Did you like,

399
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Speaker 1: what was your kind of your what in your mind

400
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:50,119
Speaker 1: would have been your endgame or your your your goal

401
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,520
Speaker 1: to get to at the time when you were sort

402
00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 1: of finding your way in the early seventies.

403
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Speaker 3: My endgame was I had this dream of becoming a

404
00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,560
Speaker 3: big time featured film that, you know, I wanted to

405
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,960
Speaker 3: edit feature films. That was the big time. That was

406
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Speaker 3: the goal, you know. Nineteen seventy, ninety, seventy seven, seventy eight,

407
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Speaker 3: I was adding docs, but I wanted to be at

408
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 3: a big time feature edited in George let me edited

409
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Speaker 3: Body and Soul, and then I went back to New

410
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Speaker 3: York and I was adding more docs. And then George

411
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,200
Speaker 3: did this film in nineteen eighty four with a young

412
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Speaker 3: Johnny Depp called Private Resort that I edited in California.

413
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Speaker 4: That film too, Man, I don't remember that one. I've

414
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 4: never heard of that one.

415
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Speaker 1: It feels like one of those films that would come

416
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Speaker 1: on prison or Showtime.

417
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Speaker 3: Actually, yeah, that's it was my Showtime.

418
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Speaker 5: Yeah.

419
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Speaker 3: And then I and then I came back to New

420
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Speaker 3: York with some other films, and then I got hired

421
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 3: by Henry Hampton in eighty seven to work on Ice Too.

422
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Speaker 3: And I was working on Ice Too for like a year,

423
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Speaker 3: shooting and my first time producing. And then one day

424
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,840
Speaker 3: I was living in the back base of Boston and

425
00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:03,920
Speaker 3: my son, who was ten years old at the time.

426
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,120
Speaker 3: The phone rang. He picked it up and he said, Dad,

427
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Speaker 3: Spike Lee, and I had just seen you the Right

428
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 3: Thing in the movies. And I said, Jason, will you're

429
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 3: messing with me for a man, Spike Lee didn't call me.

430
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 3: It's not calling me, not Dad, Spike Lee. So I

431
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,399
Speaker 3: down the phone and sure enough it was Spike and

432
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Speaker 3: a buddy of mine who was his production manager and

433
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Speaker 3: Do the Right Thing had recommended me to Spike to

434
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Speaker 3: cut No Better Blues okay, and I turned him down.

435
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 3: Wait wow, I turned him down the first time because

436
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 3: I was still in the middle of Eyes on the

437
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 3: Prize too, So I said, Spike, I'm busy. Thanks for

438
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 3: the call, but I can't I say no. And then

439
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 3: Saint clair Bourne had done a documentary about Do the

440
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 3: Right Thing called Making Do the Right Thing, and I

441
00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:51,159
Speaker 3: had worked for Saint in the early eighties cutting two

442
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,119
Speaker 3: or three films. And then Saint recommended me to Spike,

443
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 3: and about six weeks later Spike called me again, asked

444
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 3: me again to know better, and this time I said well.

445
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 3: He said, let's meet up, and we were both going

446
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 3: up to the venue to Oak Bluffs and separately, and

447
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 3: we met up at Oak Bluff. We went to a

448
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 3: little coffee shop. We spent a half hour in that

449
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 3: coffee shop, and I basically talked myself at the taking

450
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,640
Speaker 3: the job, because he didn't talk about.

451
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 1: Okay, well, you said that, and you know you wanted

452
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: to concentrate on your your one project. And you said

453
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 1: the word no, which I clearly don't know the meaning

454
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: of that word. How many projects can you realistically juggle? Okay,

455
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:47,000
Speaker 1: I'll rephrase that, how many projects should you juggle any

456
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: calendar year? If you are an.

457
00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,000
Speaker 3: Editor, you can't. You can't do but maybe one or two.

458
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,720
Speaker 1: So if you're actively working on a project.

459
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 3: It's very hard. If you're actually physically editing, it's very

460
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,960
Speaker 3: hard to do another film unless you know, you know, Listen,

461
00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 3: When I was a young man, I would do two films,

462
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 3: edit two films. I would edit probably somebody's film all

463
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 3: day in the day. It'd be my prime time job.

464
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 3: And I'd come home. I remember working in Washington on

465
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 3: a serious close Smithsonian World, and I would edit all

466
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,200
Speaker 3: day from from like nine to six. I'd go home

467
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 3: and have some dinner and Saint I was doing a

468
00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 3: film for Saint real dramatic film for Saint, and I

469
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,000
Speaker 3: would edit for Saint from I would edit my apartment

470
00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 3: on the steam back from like seven till midnight. So yeah,

471
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 3: I would edit two films. You know, that's when I

472
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 3: was a young man.

473
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 4: We don't do that type shit at the moment.

474
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 7: When it switched over to digital, did that help it all?

475
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 3: I could probably do three. Oh, I didn't sleep as much,

476
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 3: you know. But it's very hard when you're editing. You know,

477
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 3: it's easier to multitask when you're producing and directing somebody

478
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,959
Speaker 3: else's so you can. You can, you can do more

479
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 3: than one show you're producing directly because you know, you

480
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 3: know this. I mean, you got a team right now.

481
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 3: You got you got other associate producers, you got archival producers,

482
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,360
Speaker 3: you got editors, so you don't have to do everything yourself.

483
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 3: You're not sitting there at the machine editing, you know.

484
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: Actually, Bill brought up a point that I didn't think about.

485
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: At least for musicians. I feel like a lot of

486
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: us made the full like the full jump into pro

487
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: tools like around like ninety two, ninety three and full

488
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 1: fledged like in mid to late nineties. But for the

489
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: film world, when did that jump. When did that jump

490
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 1: with that paradigm shift occur, like from digital editing.

491
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 3: To around ninety four ninety five. Yeah, I cut my

492
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 3: last film. I cut the last piece on film for

493
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 3: Spike in ninety six. It was Girl six.

494
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: Okay, that was done on film.

495
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 3: That was done on film. Then after Girls six, I

496
00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 3: never did anything else on the shelf. It was fine.

497
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 3: I mean, full Little Girls was was digital. You know,

498
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 3: Bamboozle was digital. Everything after that was digital.

499
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 1: How hard is that adjustment in learning new language? Learning?

500
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,199
Speaker 1: Like Protess steal all my questions all the time on

501
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:30,639
Speaker 1: every show, Sugar, Steve wants to know how hard? Steve

502
00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: asked a question.

503
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, well, I just yeah, What was the transition

504
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:34,719
Speaker 5: like for you?

505
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 1: Was it?

506
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:37,399
Speaker 5: Was it exciting or frustrating?

507
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 3: Or at first it was frustrating because you know, I

508
00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:42,120
Speaker 3: didn't think of myself as computer savvy, so I had

509
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 3: to I had to get up to speed. I'm working

510
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 3: on the computer and stuff and figuring out how to

511
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 3: do things technically.

512
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,679
Speaker 5: Did how old were you? Sorry, how old were you

513
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 5: at that time?

514
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,680
Speaker 3: Forty five mm? So you know, it used to be

515
00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 3: they used to have they used to have you could

516
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 3: call you Avid support all the time, and you had questions.

517
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,640
Speaker 3: So the first film I could an avid, I think

518
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 3: it was an average support every day. You know, this

519
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 3: doesn't work. How do I make this work? Or do

520
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,320
Speaker 3: I do this? You know? Avid support, avid support, you know.

521
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 3: But but you know I adjusted to it because I

522
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 3: you know, I didn't want to stop editing, so you know,

523
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:20,679
Speaker 3: I didn't want someone else to edit for me, so

524
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 3: I learned how to do it digital.

525
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 5: Did you find that you were able to be more

526
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 5: creative with digital or than you were with film as

527
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 5: an editor?

528
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 3: The big, the big advantage to editing digitally is that

529
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,199
Speaker 3: you know, when you say edit film you want to

530
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 3: recut a sequence a different way, and say the old sequence,

531
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 3: you'd have to even make a dupe of the old

532
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:46,240
Speaker 3: sequence and then unsplice all the shots to rebuild it

533
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 3: another way. Digitally, you can do it in one way

534
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 3: and then you can just do another version and you

535
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 3: keep the other one. You know, and you know that

536
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 3: to me was like a great sort of plus, I

537
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 3: could see three versions of my cut. Now. The issue

538
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 3: the challenge is is if you sort of don't make

539
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 3: a decision, then you say you got to see six

540
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 3: versions of your pet because then you can't make a decision.

541
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 3: You got to you gotta be mindful of how many

542
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,720
Speaker 3: cuts you want to see before you say, okay, this

543
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 3: is the one. You know, maybe you make it so

544
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 3: real adjustment.

545
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, as far as the quality is concerned, I know

546
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: that as a musician, even though I do use digital technology,

547
00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: I'm pretty much using that digital technology to make it

548
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 1: sound like I'm doing analog, trying to make it sound

549
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 1: as cheap and whatever. Like are you the type of

550
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 1: editor or do or do editors in general still try

551
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 1: to I don't know, execute that same process as far

552
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: as uh, you know, like we we will use terms

553
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: like well, there's a warmth sound with analog that you

554
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,520
Speaker 1: don't get with digital and it sounds fold. Is that

555
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:01,360
Speaker 1: the same with you?

556
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you're still trying to You're still trying

557
00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 3: to figure out when you're you know, in terms of

558
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 3: your aesthetic, how to make it still feel like you're

559
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 3: making a movie and you know, I try to do

560
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 3: a commercial, you know, so you're crafting it in a

561
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 3: certain way. So you're saying the film aesthetic that I

562
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 3: learned when it was film, I'm trying to apply that

563
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 3: to the digital technology. You know, I'm trying not to

564
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 3: edit films like what I would see the fast paced

565
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 3: commercials or something on you know, these music videos. I'm

566
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 3: still trying to bring to it the storytelling editorial storytelling

567
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 3: techniques I learned when I was editing film, you know,

568
00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 3: and I try to still apply those, you know, And

569
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 3: then depends on who shoots your material. I mean a

570
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 3: lot of documentary filmmakers still have the ability to have

571
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 3: their camera people shoot it so it's twenty fourth rings

572
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 3: per second, you know, it looks like you're shooting it

573
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 3: on film. You know, sometimes you want to change the

574
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 3: textures and the coloring of it so it has a

575
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 3: more sort of film and texture. And think about all

576
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 3: those things you know, when you when you shoot, you go.

577
00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 3: When you watch some of these films I've done in the

578
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 3: last few years, they all I still try to give

579
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 3: it a sort of an emotional film sensibility in terms

580
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 3: of the approach.

581
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: You know that That leads to my question, Okay, you

582
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: brought up Bamboozle. So at the time when we shot

583
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 1: that with Spike, and Spike was explaining to me that

584
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 1: Yo're going to shoot this all in digital, and I

585
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 1: think that was like new to him at the time,

586
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: Like the way he shot that film was was way different.

587
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: So even watching him on the set and how him

588
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: and was Malik his his Linesman, I'm not.

589
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 3: Certain cis shot.

590
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: Okay. Now, when I saw that film and it was digital,

591
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 1: it still had a I don't know what to call

592
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 1: the type of film that like they use when they

593
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: do soap operas.

594
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 3: But that film because because that's what they wanted to.

595
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 1: Is that is that video or is that? But that's

596
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: why I was asking was that done on purpose? Because

597
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: then you know you cut to cut to she Hate Me?

598
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 1: She Hate Me still had a kind of you don't

599
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 1: know if it's video or.

600
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:20,479
Speaker 3: Had the videos of the old television shows texture how

601
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 3: know as you're talking about.

602
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: But now it's like it's borderline, Like it feels like

603
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: it's thirty five millimeters when I'm watching it. Like in

604
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,479
Speaker 1: the beginning, when I first got my digital TV, everything

605
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: felt like it's so proper. Maybe like after ten years

606
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 1: of watching it, I've just conditioned myself to accept this

607
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 1: is the norm. But are they still like rewriting the

608
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: quality of what digital is?

609
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 3: Well, the thing you should remember, you know what your TVs,

610
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 3: you know there's settings in your.

611
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 4: TV and you got to set that frame rate.

612
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 3: You got to set the frame rate so it doesn't

613
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 3: look like digital. You go to these hotels sometimes you're

614
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 3: watching things and man, that looks you know, it looks.

615
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 4: Like a play right, Yeah, it's so proper, right, But.

616
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 3: If you set your frame rate on your television, it

617
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 3: won't look like that. If you said it for twenty

618
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 3: four frames per second, they're gonna look like thirty frames

619
00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:10,640
Speaker 3: per second.

620
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 2: Service love a good lesson, Let me go get my promote.

621
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,000
Speaker 4: That's because on the new iPhones, like on the because

622
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 4: like I got the twelve, I got the twelve pro

623
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 4: macs and naked you can shoot it.

624
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 5: You can shoot.

625
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 4: Thirty frames per second video four and then you can

626
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 4: shoot sixty frames, and the sixty frames just's yeah, it's like, nah,

627
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,440
Speaker 4: it looks plastic like, it looks so real. It looks fake.

628
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 4: It's crazy.

629
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 3: The other thing is, you know, the other thing. The

630
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 3: other thing too is that with Bamboozle, Spike was shooting

631
00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 3: on DV cameras, the first DV cameras, and the frame

632
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 3: rate was thirty frames per second, but it really had

633
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 3: a real digital feeling. What's happened with the cameras, those

634
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,920
Speaker 3: DV cameras. Nobody uses those anymore. So the technology has improved.

635
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 3: So now when you shoot with these video cameras, they

636
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 3: and if you get to if you use the right lenses,

637
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 3: you can feel like you're watching films. You know, that's technology.

638
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: So if they were well, I already know that they

639
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 1: did a uh like criteria, I know they did. Yeah,

640
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 1: they already did a Criterion reissue. So what I'm asking

641
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 1: is if there's a remastering process.

642
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,839
Speaker 3: It will still look the same, so you.

643
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:25,920
Speaker 1: Can keep it looking just like it did in two thousand.

644
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I just watched it too on Criteria. It

645
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 3: looks the same. It looks just like it did when

646
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 3: they shot it. You're not going to be able to

647
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 3: change that. That look. That's the field that they got

648
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 3: and it's not going to change.

649
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: So at the time when you were doing it and

650
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 1: watching it was it was it sort of off putting, like, Okay,

651
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: is this going to be the future of movies now?

652
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: Like is everything going to look like yeah, it was,

653
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: you know, I picked up a video camera and made

654
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: it look like this, or yeah.

655
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 3: It's a little off putting. It definitely did but you know,

656
00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,439
Speaker 3: Spike was you know, Spike did it for a couple

657
00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 3: of reasons. I mean, he had access to all these cameras.

658
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,439
Speaker 3: He shot with six cameras, you remember, Yeah, he shot

659
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 3: with lots of cameras. And also it had an impact

660
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 3: on the budget because shooting with those cameras, he didn't

661
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 3: spend as much money he was shooting on film. You know,

662
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:19,560
Speaker 3: he did shoot the performance stuff with you know, with

663
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 3: Tommy Davison and and Save You on he shot that

664
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 3: on film six Super sixteen, but everything else was video.

665
00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 4: Okay, I see, what is a question I had? Just

666
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:35,560
Speaker 4: what is an example? And you don't have to, you know,

667
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 4: name any particular movies if you don't want, But what

668
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 4: is an example of just bad editing? Just kind of

669
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,320
Speaker 4: just you know, just from a fundamental standpoint, because the

670
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 4: movies I watch and I'm just like, yeah, they felt

671
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:48,760
Speaker 4: like they could have cut maybe ten to fifteen minutes

672
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 4: out of that it felt too long or whatever. But

673
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 4: what is bad editing?

674
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 3: I never say that anymore, you know, Okay, but most

675
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:58,880
Speaker 3: films when you watched him, I watched the film the

676
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:02,800
Speaker 3: Other Night from twenty fifteen with Sean Penn and Idris

677
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 3: Elba and javardin called Gunman, you know, and they shot

678
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 3: all of it. But they shot and they shot in

679
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 3: South Africa, they shot in Spain, Barcelona, they shot in England.

680
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 3: And it's not a good film. It's not a good

681
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 3: film at all. But it's not about the editing. It's

682
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:22,800
Speaker 3: not about the cinematography, because it looks great. It's edited

683
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 3: pretty well, ain'ty. Remember it's usually not bad editing. It's

684
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 3: usually bad scripts.

685
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:28,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, bad storytelling.

686
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a bad storytelling, you know, because the technology

687
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 3: has improved to such a degree that most films look fantastic.

688
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 3: Most films are edited well. The problem is is the

689
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 3: story sucks. You know, So when the story sucks, it

690
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 3: doesn't matter how well it's put together, it just doesn't work,

691
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 3: you know. So I'm you know, I never really see

692
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 3: that term bad editing anymore. You know, it's really bad storytelling.

693
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was just so. Yeah, that was curious for

694
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 4: things cleaning it up, because I wonder like, yeah, where

695
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 4: is it? Where does it get made? Is it the

696
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 4: story or is it Can you have a good story

697
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 4: and then a back cut can mess it up?

698
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 3: You know, it's rare, you could, but it's rare. You

699
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 3: can definitely have a bad story and the cuts won't

700
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 3: help it.

701
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,240
Speaker 1: Well, I was going to say, I was going to say,

702
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 1: what happens in the case of a film like The Irishman,

703
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:29,240
Speaker 1: which clearly I see more of it as a curtain

704
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 1: call than I do a film like I don't know

705
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: if I would name The Irishman in my school, you know, no, no, no.

706
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: But the thing is is that I enjoyed it, but

707
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 1: I saw it more as a curtain call, Like, Okay,

708
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:48,479
Speaker 1: this is obviously the last time we're going to see

709
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: Paccino and de Niro and Scorsese and school micer like

710
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 1: at this level and this intensity of a gangster film.

711
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:59,759
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like, Okay, I forgave the fact

712
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,839
Speaker 1: that three hours and forty five minutes however long it was,

713
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: but in your mind. But I'm also not a film buff,

714
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: so there are a lot of things that I will

715
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:13,480
Speaker 1: let slide that a lot of my film buff films

716
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: friends will just start criticizing. Now, I know it might

717
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:21,960
Speaker 1: be sacrilegious or whatever, but what do you do in

718
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: what would you do in the case of a film

719
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 1: like The Irishman, where well, here's.

720
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 3: My take on the ash Man. And you know, there's

721
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 3: some people I know who love it, well, absolutely love

722
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 3: that film to me. To me, I feel like you

723
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 3: it was what I call Scorsese's sort of like the

724
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 3: last trail. You know, he's on this his swan song.

725
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 3: He'll make more films. But in terms of the Gangs,

726
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 3: to mill you, he should leave it alone because for

727
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 3: me it was too long and I didn't buy the

728
00:38:55,160 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 3: idea that Joe Peshew and de Niro look like young men.

729
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 4: Oh my god? What is that about it? All?

730
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 2: Is this effect?

731
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 4: It doesn't work on everybody? Did they try?

732
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 3: It didn't work at all and did not.

733
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 1: But wasn't that also like a primitive like in my mind,

734
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: is that bamboozled in two thousand where it's just like

735
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: this new technology that they're working on. And obviously though

736
00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 1: you know.

737
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,279
Speaker 3: It could be one of those things where in ten

738
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,440
Speaker 3: years people when need to visit that film say it

739
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 3: was a master piece. To me, it was too long

740
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 3: and it was a curtain call and you know, and

741
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 3: I don't need to see the narrow but Joe Pesci

742
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 3: played gagsters ever again, you know, I agree, you know,

743
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 3: it was just you know, and you know you know,

744
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 3: I'm a big fan of Marty films, you know, Raging

745
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 3: Bull and Good Photos, even Casino, but this one.

746
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 4: Was like yeah, casinos, yeah.

747
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 3: This one. This one was like, Okay, this is time

748
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 3: to stop this this journey, you know, the one.

749
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 4: I will say. The thing I liked about it that

750
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 4: I thought was interesting was that he he wore his

751
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 4: old films. You know, he was kind of shown as

752
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 4: you know, glorifying the gangster life with Casino and Goodfellas,

753
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 4: you kind of should see the shiny side of it.

754
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,759
Speaker 4: But with this one, it was more more so for

755
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 4: lack of vetter termin It was just a blue collar gangster,

756
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 4: like he wasn't rich, he wasn't you know, you know,

757
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 4: he was just that. So I did think that that

758
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 4: was an interesting shift, you know, tone wise, But I agree,

759
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 4: I don't think we need to see them play gangsters.

760
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 4: I think they don't have nothing new to say in

761
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 4: that way.

762
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 3: And it was watching, you know, even the scene I do.

763
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 3: I remember the scene Narrow's character beats up to kicks

764
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 3: the gangster in the street.

765
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 4: Dude, he's like eighty years old.

766
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 3: I said, I said, this guy's an old man.

767
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:49,280
Speaker 1: I mean, he can his leg, but I well, see

768
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:53,240
Speaker 1: I thought that, uh, like, normally, especially if you watch

769
00:40:53,480 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: Goodfellas and Casino, the way that Filma does cuts and

770
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: edits very intensely and things that you know, trademarks that

771
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: Scorsese is known for. This was the first time where

772
00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:14,399
Speaker 1: I didn't see that fast paced kind of editing action

773
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 1: that makes it more intense. So I actually thought that

774
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,680
Speaker 1: it was unique for them to do a slower a

775
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: slower cut kind of Scarsese gangster film. That wasn't.

776
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, you could say that, you could say that, you know.

777
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 3: The other way to look at it, you know, is

778
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,960
Speaker 3: that sometimes you know this sometimes when when when an

779
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 3: autist gets older, their their rhythms and their paces slow down.

780
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 3: You know.

781
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 1: See I thought that was on purpose, No, I you know, sometimes.

782
00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 3: It is, and sometimes I mean I gave you a

783
00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 3: great example, you know. You know, I've been doing the

784
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:55,080
Speaker 3: Max Roach film right right, And so you watch Max

785
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,000
Speaker 3: in the forties and you listen to Max and the

786
00:41:57,040 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 3: Poison and fifties of Quickly Brown, I mean everything is

787
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 3: in the seventies, he's still playing, you know, he's doing

788
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,280
Speaker 3: you know, it's drum also losses, but you can tell

789
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 3: it's slowed down.

790
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 1: Right, Wait, It's funny you said that. I had a moment,

791
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: probably one of Max's last public performances before he passed away,

792
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: where they set up this drum thing between him and I,

793
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:34,240
Speaker 1: and uh this, I feel so fuck boyish recalling this story.

794
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 1: You know, I was like, all right, I got it.

795
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: I'm going up against Max roach Man. I better prepare.

796
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: So I spent a month like working on my technique. No, well,

797
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: the thing was I had going up against. I did

798
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 1: this with Cindy Blackman maybe seven months before, and.

799
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 2: Did it with Roy Haynes too, and this.

800
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 1: Was four hundred No I know, No, I did not

801
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:05,719
Speaker 1: battle Roy Haines, but I'm just saying that with Cindy one,

802
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 1: I was way out of shape. I was like four

803
00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,840
Speaker 1: hundred pounds whatever, and like three minutes into the solo,

804
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: she just dusted me. And I was like I was

805
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: on my never again joined And so I was like,

806
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 1: all right, Max Roach, I don't care, I'm gonna dust

807
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: his ass. And I didn't realize that he was like,

808
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:27,040
Speaker 1: you know, his late eighties and just he was just

809
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: happy to be there. He's like playing a little and

810
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 1: I felt like an asshole at the end, like a man.

811
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: I was showing out, and then I.

812
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 4: Think too because by that point in your career you

813
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 4: don't really have anything left to prove. I mean, it's like, motherfucker,

814
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:43,839
Speaker 4: I'm Max Rose, Like, what that's it?

815
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:44,359
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?

816
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 4: If I get I can play fucking spoons and bottles,

817
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:48,319
Speaker 4: you know what I mean?

818
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 3: Whatever, that's true, That's true, exactly true.

819
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: I want to ask you about style wars for a

820
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 1: lot of hip hop aficionados, especially old school cats like

821
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: between Wild Style and Star Wars like those are the first,

822
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:13,200
Speaker 1: probably the two really authentic looks at early hip hop.

823
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 1: How did you did you talk about getting involved in

824
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,759
Speaker 1: that that project and was it a big deal to

825
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: you that that that sort of thing was greenlit to

826
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: make in the first place.

827
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 3: Well, it was interesting the director Tony Silver. I was

828
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 3: working for Victor Kaneski, the guy who trained me, and yeah,

829
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 3: he had this editing service and we had been doing trailers.

830
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 3: Tony Silvery used to do these movie trailers, these little

831
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 3: two three minute movie trailers, and we used to edit

832
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 3: those for Tony And one day he said he had

833
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 3: a buddy named Henry Chaufman who would go up to

834
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:51,239
Speaker 3: the Bronx and Queens and he would photograph and these

835
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 3: all these graffiti artists doing their thing, and he decided

836
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,440
Speaker 3: Tony decided to take a camera crew and start shooting.

837
00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 3: And so he just started shooting all the guys, the

838
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 3: breakdancing and all the artists, you know, all of them.

839
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 3: And then he came to Victory and says, I got

840
00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 3: all this footage. I don't have a lot of money,

841
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 3: but you guys, I'll pay something so we could start editing.

842
00:45:10,880 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 3: So in like nineteen eighty one eighty two, we started

843
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,400
Speaker 3: editing that film for not a lot of money, you know.

844
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 3: And I knew about the whole hip hop world, you know,

845
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,560
Speaker 3: I knew about graffiti, but this was a deep dive.

846
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 3: It took us a whole year to edit that film,

847
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 3: you know, because Tony was always changing every cuts we made.

848
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 3: Held look at the cuts, O, this is not right,

849
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 3: this is not working, which we edit the restructure, We

850
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 3: edit restructure. And by the time that whole year was

851
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 3: over editing that film, I was so angry and disgusted

852
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 3: with Tony. I didn't want to see him again. Yeah,

853
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 3: because we just worked so hard on it. It really

854
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 3: worked hard, and you know, I never realized that the

855
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 3: film would really take off like it did. You know,

856
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 3: we knew that it was an audience. We didn't realize it.

857
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:00,280
Speaker 3: We really had such a big splash. I mean even today.

858
00:46:00,440 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 3: I mean I've had students, you know, in the last

859
00:46:03,719 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 3: ten years who've seen that film. I mean even Spike

860
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 3: said he didn't know I edited that film after I

861
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 3: did No Better Blues and saw my credits. What is

862
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 3: you edited one of the editors on the Star Wars.

863
00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:15,640
Speaker 3: But yeah, man, you know.

864
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 1: So you had no clue that this was something revolutionary.

865
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 4: Like not.

866
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 3: I knew it was revolutionary, but I didn't realize it

867
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 3: was going to have such a wide reaching impact, you know,

868
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,839
Speaker 3: because when we finished it, Tony took it away and

869
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 3: we knew it got in some festival. You know, we didn't,

870
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 3: you know, back then, when I was editing films, I

871
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 3: didn't think much about how where they were going to

872
00:46:37,440 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 3: go so much. I was just it was, you know,

873
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 3: I was trying to make a good film and didn't

874
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 3: move on. So it was one of those things you said, Wow,

875
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 3: I really had an impact.

876
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 1: I guess that said for me, the film seems so

877
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 1: guerrilla like, like did it have did they at least

878
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 1: go into the project with some sort of like plan

879
00:46:59,719 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 1: or or was it just like we'll just shoot as

880
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,480
Speaker 1: we go along and try to make create a story

881
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,879
Speaker 1: out of this, because it wasn't like they were there

882
00:47:06,920 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 1: to teach us the history. It was almost like a

883
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 1: reality show.

884
00:47:10,920 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 3: So it was it was gorilla or I mean, sometimes

885
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 3: they would they would go to these yards and they

886
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 3: would shoot the guys doing their thing. Sometimes they did

887
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:20,759
Speaker 3: have a little bit of a plan, like when Case

888
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,399
Speaker 3: went into his house, you know, when you see Kase

889
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 3: walking through the projects, walking through the playground, walks to

890
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 3: his house, the camera fan doll pans out. They decided

891
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 3: to do that. Then they would have stars and they

892
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,319
Speaker 3: sat down with Case and his two buddies and had

893
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 3: them drawing in cases telling you his story about how

894
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 3: he lost his arm and stuff right and seeing with

895
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 3: those guys on the train when casing his guys up

896
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 3: on the L train, you know. And then you know,

897
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,160
Speaker 3: like when we put the we did that montage that

898
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:49,560
Speaker 3: was sort of Tony said, let's let's do a montage.

899
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:51,919
Speaker 3: Let's figure out a montage. So we found that song

900
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 3: when they're saying, you know, they're doing that wrap right

901
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 3: on the music, and we just created some of these

902
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 3: things were spontaneous, and these things were a little set up,

903
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 3: but most of those gorilla type filmmaking.

904
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 1: Well, when you're in that situation, what happens if you're

905
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:12,959
Speaker 1: I assume that if you're editing already, you're at least

906
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: towards the end stage or the fourth quart of the project.

907
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 1: What if you're in a situation in which, uh, you

908
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 1: have like way more broth, then you have stue content

909
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 1: for that particular meal. In other words, like if you're

910
00:48:33,840 --> 00:48:38,800
Speaker 1: editing and you're trying to create a sort of coherent

911
00:48:38,920 --> 00:48:42,040
Speaker 1: storyline and it's not all the way there yet, Like,

912
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: do you guys go back out to shoot some more stuff?

913
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:48,600
Speaker 3: Some Yeah, Sometimes if they have the budget and you

914
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 3: can get them to go back out, they do shues.

915
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 3: Sometimes if they don't have the budget, then you got

916
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 3: to improvise even more to figure out how to make

917
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,359
Speaker 3: it coherent and work. If you have more broth than

918
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 3: stu ste ingredients, you know. So the thing you always

919
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 3: have to remember when you make it a film is

920
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 3: always keep yourself, keep on your toes with the surprises.

921
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 3: Never settle into the idea that, oh this is going

922
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 3: to be a material I have. I got to make

923
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:17,839
Speaker 3: it work this way you can always with film, it's

924
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 3: really malleable. You can try different things and all the

925
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 3: time to come up with different ways and look at

926
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,959
Speaker 3: a sequence, you know, and a really good filmmaker will

927
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 3: always be open to try different things, because if you're not,

928
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 3: then someone's going to take it from you and say, well,

929
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 3: you know, there's another way, because there's always another way

930
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,080
Speaker 3: to make a film always.

931
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 7: Okay, Can you talk about your relationship with composers and

932
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:45,240
Speaker 7: music editors. I mean, we just we just recently interviewed

933
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 7: Terrence Blanchard, who I'm sure you know, and I've been

934
00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 7: working on a bunch of films lately, and I find

935
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:53,759
Speaker 7: that that relationship is always very different as editors. Some

936
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 7: usually work with the same composers, some don't, and just

937
00:49:56,360 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 7: figuring out that situation and how that how to achieve

938
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,560
Speaker 7: the best posts will think and what comes first?

939
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:02,439
Speaker 3: Music or not music?

940
00:50:02,480 --> 00:50:03,959
Speaker 1: What are you using? Ya ya YadA.

941
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 3: That's what usually in my process is, you know, I'll

942
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:10,879
Speaker 3: put a cut together. Like I just mentioned this other

943
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,279
Speaker 3: film for HBO called Black Art in the Affence of

944
00:50:13,320 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 3: Life about these different artists from Carrie may Leans to

945
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,759
Speaker 3: Carol Walker to Carrie James Bush. So we put the

946
00:50:19,760 --> 00:50:23,160
Speaker 3: film together and the editor said, what kind of tent

947
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 3: music going to use? I said, well, there's a composer

948
00:50:26,080 --> 00:50:29,000
Speaker 3: out in La Na, Katherine Bostic, and I want to

949
00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 3: use her music. So she had done the music for

950
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,799
Speaker 3: my August Wilson film, so I said, let's go back,

951
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 3: and I had her send me some of that music

952
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:37,719
Speaker 3: that she had done for the August Wilson post. Let's

953
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:40,359
Speaker 3: use some of your music as temps. Send me some

954
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 3: other pieces that you can use as temp and then

955
00:50:43,239 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 3: we laid in some of her music. Some of it

956
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 3: worked and it didn't work. But when we got to

957
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 3: a cut where we had some of this tent music in,

958
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:51,720
Speaker 3: and then I had some other music that I found

959
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 3: that I liked it I used. I use some Cold

960
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,920
Speaker 3: Traine music. I use some some Billy Straighthorn, which I

961
00:50:57,960 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 3: knew I couldn't keep because it was going to cost

962
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 3: too much money. So then we had a music session

963
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 3: where I said to Katherine, you know, here's the feel

964
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 3: I'm looking for, here's the tonalities, you know, and I

965
00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 3: play an instruments I'm always talking about. Here's the kind

966
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:13,200
Speaker 3: of instruments I want you to try. I want I

967
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 3: want flutes here, I want woodwinds here. I think you

968
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 3: should what's your instrument? I play flute. I used to

969
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 3: play side yeah, okay, so so you know, and you know,

970
00:51:24,520 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 3: so I'm talking about the rhythm and the pace and

971
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 3: the tonal. Now, some people, you know, some of the

972
00:51:28,960 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 3: directors don't know music, can't use musical terms. They say,

973
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:37,439
Speaker 3: you know, I wanted to be strong, I want to yellow. Yeah,

974
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:40,960
Speaker 3: But I try to give them some real specific so

975
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 3: I'll say, like i'm talking, I'm talking to this composer

976
00:51:43,719 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 3: now about this zard astron And I said, you know, man,

977
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 3: we're trying to create that seventies feel. So go back

978
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 3: that sixties and seventies steel. Go back and listen to

979
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 3: the scores that Quincy Jones did for in the Heat

980
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 3: of the Night in the nineteen sixty eight called The Pawnbroker.

981
00:51:58,400 --> 00:52:00,680
Speaker 3: Listen to that rhythmic field, Listen to rhythm and the

982
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 3: pacing of that. I want that kind of feel for

983
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 3: this score for this film, you know, you know, and

984
00:52:06,320 --> 00:52:08,799
Speaker 3: we're using we're keeping some music. We're having a film

985
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,799
Speaker 3: that when Art da Ash goes to South Africa, we're

986
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 3: gonna use Gilbert gil Gilskharens Johannesburg. You know we're going

987
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 3: to use the temptations how I wish every grain, you know,

988
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 3: but so listen to those pieces to see if you

989
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 3: can sort of instrumentally replicate that feel for some of

990
00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 3: the other sections of the film. So I mean, I'm

991
00:52:30,080 --> 00:52:32,759
Speaker 3: trying to be very specific with composers, you know.

992
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 4: Now, the fact that you can speak music and film

993
00:52:35,640 --> 00:52:36,919
Speaker 4: that goes a long way.

994
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: It helps.

995
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 3: It really helps.

996
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:46,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, for me, of all your work with Spike Lee,

997
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 1: I will say, and it's weird, and I hope you

998
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:55,240
Speaker 1: know this. This statement isn't hyperbolic or timely, only because

999
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 1: the film has not been seen in thirty years for

1000
00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 1: some reason, he hadn't allowed it on streaming or whatever.

1001
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:08,320
Speaker 1: But for me at the time in ninety one, watching

1002
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:15,319
Speaker 1: that taj Mahal scene jungle Fever, to me, that was

1003
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:20,520
Speaker 1: I of all of it in Spike's whole canon, I

1004
00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:25,920
Speaker 1: don't think six minutes really hasn't gripped me or frightened

1005
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:29,359
Speaker 1: me as much as watching that film like it wasn't

1006
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: over exaggerated. And oftentimes you know, Spike will hammer point

1007
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 1: home with over exaggeration or that sort of thing. But

1008
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: it was just like to watch that scene in its

1009
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 1: six minute glory, like to the backdrop of Stevie Wonders

1010
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,280
Speaker 1: living for the City and the way that was edited

1011
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,320
Speaker 1: and all that stuff. Could you talk about just the

1012
00:53:50,239 --> 00:53:53,880
Speaker 1: choreography of how that scene came to be?

1013
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 3: I think, you know, you'd have to aspect this, but

1014
00:53:57,800 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 3: I think he played that music and he was shooting

1015
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 3: that scene oh wow, because it was interesting to me.

1016
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 3: But when I cut that scene and Spotty said he

1017
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,560
Speaker 3: wanted to use Living in the City, I don't think

1018
00:54:08,560 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 3: I made a music cut. You know, usually I don't

1019
00:54:12,680 --> 00:54:14,200
Speaker 3: think I made a music cut. I know, if you

1020
00:54:14,239 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 3: go back to you guys watch The Love Supreme at

1021
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:19,399
Speaker 3: the end of My Better Blues, I made a big

1022
00:54:19,480 --> 00:54:23,320
Speaker 3: music cut there, you know, between when the Babies.

1023
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:27,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I made a big music cut there.

1024
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 3: But on Living in the City, I don't think I

1025
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:31,640
Speaker 3: made a music cut.

1026
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:34,359
Speaker 2: Now, Sam, you know you got to break that down

1027
00:54:34,400 --> 00:54:35,840
Speaker 2: because I'm like, wait, music, what are you saying a

1028
00:54:35,960 --> 00:54:36,560
Speaker 2: music cut or.

1029
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 3: Music cart a music cut where you said you removed

1030
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:41,319
Speaker 3: some of the music to make it.

1031
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 1: Work to work in the scene.

1032
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:45,520
Speaker 3: But this one, I don't think I made any music cuts.

1033
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 3: Live in the City because I think with.

1034
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 1: The exception of the occasional cut of them smoking crack

1035
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 1: across the screen, it almost felt like it was one

1036
00:54:56,200 --> 00:55:00,120
Speaker 1: long take, but I know that you used multiple.

1037
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 3: I used my mostle visual take. I'm talking about it.

1038
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:03,839
Speaker 3: I didn't make any music edits.

1039
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, the music was it plays straight through.

1040
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:09,880
Speaker 3: Usually I make a music edit because the sequence is

1041
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,400
Speaker 3: too long. But the two films I never made a

1042
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 3: music edit was on that one and the sequence in

1043
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:18,400
Speaker 3: Girls six when what your name is? Going to the beach.

1044
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: And how come you don't call me anymore?

1045
00:55:21,360 --> 00:55:22,439
Speaker 4: And I love that.

1046
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,759
Speaker 3: Scene scene too, man, I don't think I made a

1047
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:28,879
Speaker 3: music cut, you know, the.

1048
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:34,360
Speaker 1: First Catfish one film, the first the first two of

1049
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 1: the fly Out story going Wrong.

1050
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,239
Speaker 3: It was it was almost like Spike It and Edit

1051
00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 3: had shot that scene in in the pace and the

1052
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:47,319
Speaker 3: rhythm that I didn't have to. I made all these

1053
00:55:47,320 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 3: individual picture cuts that were but it was like they

1054
00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 3: were just right. Everything was just right. I was like, Wow,

1055
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:53,880
Speaker 3: I couldn't believe it.

1056
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 1: I cut it at one point, I borderline felt like

1057
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:03,320
Speaker 1: he started with Living for the City and then somehow

1058
00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 1: like wrote the film around that because I just.

1059
00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:09,879
Speaker 3: What I think he did. That's exactly what I think

1060
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 3: he did. Man, I think he Yeah. I think he

1061
00:56:12,440 --> 00:56:14,880
Speaker 3: started with the song and he then built the scene

1062
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 3: from that because that's how it works.

1063
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 1: And dressed okay, yeah, because it's just so unusual too.

1064
00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:25,000
Speaker 1: And again Living for the City is like six minutes long.

1065
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 1: But I just wondered how with editing is concerned, Like,

1066
00:56:30,239 --> 00:56:32,680
Speaker 1: how is he like, because the timing has to be

1067
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 1: perfect because literally, for the for those that haven't seen

1068
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 1: the film, there's a scene where Flipper Purify played by

1069
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:47,360
Speaker 1: Wesley Snipes, has to confront his brother for stealing the

1070
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:53,520
Speaker 1: family television the TV. Yeah, Sam Jackson playing a crackhead

1071
00:56:53,520 --> 00:57:00,359
Speaker 1: his older crackheat butter brother Flipper gataa data. As matter

1072
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: of fact, I believe that cons had to invent a

1073
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 1: category just so that Sam Jackson could win Best Supporting Actor.

1074
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:12,720
Speaker 1: They didn't have a supporting scene. So basically what happens

1075
00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:19,400
Speaker 1: is Wesley Snipe starts at one point in Harlem and

1076
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 1: does a real time walk what seems to be four

1077
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 1: blocks or whatever to a crack house, a crack then

1078
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 1: of which once he gets there. You know, especially for

1079
00:57:31,920 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 1: ninety one, when people were still had their heads in

1080
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 1: the sand over the crack epidemic, like to visually see

1081
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,280
Speaker 1: that shot. I'm really shocked. We didn't even ask Spike

1082
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 1: about the scene when he was on the show twice.

1083
00:57:44,560 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 1: I forgot.

1084
00:57:45,680 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 2: But doesn't it pauls in the middle when when Leslie

1085
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:53,680
Speaker 2: has the conversation with was it Charlie Murphy Charlie okay, okay?

1086
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 1: No, music is still going, music is still going, right,

1087
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:58,960
Speaker 1: So I guess what I wanted to like, did they

1088
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 1: did they have to quirre gra that in terms of

1089
00:58:01,520 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 1: or was that just great editing? Because as far as

1090
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 1: I know, Wesley Snipe starts four blocks ahead, walks to

1091
00:58:08,240 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: the Tasma hall four blocks later, confronts Halle Berry and

1092
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:17,200
Speaker 1: Sam Jackson, and you know, of course this has to

1093
00:58:17,240 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: work in coordinance with with the song, you know, and

1094
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 1: stopping to talk to child.

1095
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:23,800
Speaker 3: That's what I'm saying.

1096
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 9: I think I think Spike played the track while he

1097
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 9: was shooting as okay, because it almost works so perfect

1098
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:34,600
Speaker 9: when I cut it, I couldn't believe how it worked.

1099
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,040
Speaker 1: It works so well, right, Yeah, that to me is

1100
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 1: like one of his I don't know, And again I

1101
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 1: don't know timing wise, if it still could work in

1102
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. I beg him all the time, like

1103
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:51,960
Speaker 1: why haven't why is this the only film of yours

1104
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 1: that's not, you know, available for screening?

1105
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 3: Was he saying, I don't know.

1106
00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 1: I you know, and it's weird. I've I've done some

1107
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:05,880
Speaker 1: uh you know, I've read a few blogs or whatever,

1108
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 1: and they'll try to say like, well, you know, this

1109
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 1: is his only film that wasn't as timely or you

1110
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:14,520
Speaker 1: know that sort of thing like it it didn't age

1111
00:59:14,520 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: well or that sort of. I don't know, but he's

1112
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:20,440
Speaker 1: sort of just he shruggish about it. But for me,

1113
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 1: I don't know. I I between Matt scene and the

1114
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:29,040
Speaker 1: final scene with Ozzie Davis and Sam Jackson, I thought

1115
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 1: that was some of his most powerful visuals. So I

1116
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 1: guess I want to jump into you as a director,

1117
00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 1: not just as an editor, as I mentioned at the top.

1118
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:45,280
Speaker 1: With Eyes on the Prize too.

1119
00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 3: Uh.

1120
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 1: The aforementioned Jesus in the Black Messiah film is based

1121
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:56,400
Speaker 1: Judas and the Black I'm sorry I keep saying Jesus

1122
00:59:56,680 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 1: the only one. Wait a minute, I've went on a

1123
01:00:00,440 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 1: record in other places publicly said Jesus and no one

1124
01:00:03,880 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 1: has ever corrected me.

1125
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:09,640
Speaker 7: That's because we weren't there, because we weren't there, and

1126
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:10,440
Speaker 7: that's what we do.

1127
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:11,360
Speaker 3: We correct you.

1128
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:19,040
Speaker 1: Anyway. So they use the footage from your documentary interviewing

1129
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:27,160
Speaker 1: I forget his name, Yeah, William O'Neill, and of course

1130
01:00:27,280 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 1: they they also note that he commits suicide the day

1131
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 1: that Eyes on the Prize finally gets televised at the time.

1132
01:00:39,320 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 1: Why did you choose to uh include him in your film?

1133
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:49,080
Speaker 1: And was he as brash as that clip seemed to be.

1134
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 1: You know, he kind of spoke with like no remorse, like, well,

1135
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:55,120
Speaker 1: at least at least I did something.

1136
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:58,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I think he was. I think he was conflicted.

1137
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:01,480
Speaker 3: And you know, I think he was a complicated man.

1138
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 3: And when when when? You know, because I didn't produce

1139
01:01:04,760 --> 01:01:08,200
Speaker 3: that particular segment, but I was on the series and uh.

1140
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 1: Oh okay, I thought you directed.

1141
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:14,440
Speaker 3: That I didn't direct, but and you know, the producers

1142
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:17,960
Speaker 3: whose voices really asked the question was a woman, you know,

1143
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 3: so it's you know, I think I don't think of it.

1144
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:24,160
Speaker 3: I think he was a conflicted man. I just think

1145
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:25,920
Speaker 3: he was. He was torn, as you can see in

1146
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 3: the film, and he caught up with him emotionally and psychically.

1147
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 4: You know, you know, and also too they just didn't

1148
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:35,600
Speaker 4: show uh well not the shortened movie, but I think

1149
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:37,880
Speaker 4: a lot of times context is lost on just how

1150
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 4: young they were when they got involved doing this ship.

1151
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:42,960
Speaker 3: He was caught up, he was caught up between a

1152
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 3: rock and a hard place. Yeah, you know, so you know,

1153
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:50,160
Speaker 3: he was a conflicted man. So it's a sad story,

1154
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:51,760
Speaker 3: quite honestly, very sair.

1155
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1156
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:58,400
Speaker 1: So with h m ok FBI, what what prompted you

1157
01:01:58,840 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 1: to even return to the story or like to investigate

1158
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 1: the story because I guess for a lot of people,

1159
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:09,680
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's sort of a fatigue on civil

1160
01:02:09,720 --> 01:02:12,240
Speaker 1: rights and how many ways we can tell the story.

1161
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:14,600
Speaker 1: How did you know that there was another story to

1162
01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:15,960
Speaker 1: tell that we weren't aware of?

1163
01:02:16,600 --> 01:02:18,960
Speaker 3: It was a book. We read, this book by David Garrow,

1164
01:02:19,080 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 3: historian about the surveillance of King by the FBI and Hoover,

1165
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:25,040
Speaker 3: and we thought it would be a good story if

1166
01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 3: we told it right, We thought we could make it work.

1167
01:02:27,320 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 3: And you know the reality is is that I don't

1168
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 3: think there's going to be a fatigue on stories about

1169
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 3: King or Malcolm or even you know, Fred Hampton. I mean,

1170
01:02:35,600 --> 01:02:38,280
Speaker 3: there's always an appetite and this is this is history now,

1171
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 3: this is forty years almost fifty years ago, so this

1172
01:02:41,400 --> 01:02:44,320
Speaker 3: has become really important history. So we thought we could

1173
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,280
Speaker 3: give it a new spin. You did, you did, and

1174
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 3: that's what we did, you know, That's that's why we

1175
01:02:49,400 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 3: did it. You know, it was a new way to

1176
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 3: tell the story.

1177
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:56,200
Speaker 1: How did you? As far as the film concerns, it

1178
01:02:56,240 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 1: really gets deep into how the FBI tries to to intimidate,

1179
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:08,680
Speaker 1: a manipulate and use propaganda against King, especially his uh

1180
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 1: kind of philandering if you will with other women and

1181
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:16,800
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Was there any apprehension whatsoever to

1182
01:03:16,840 --> 01:03:19,000
Speaker 1: sort of let that cat out of the back even

1183
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 1: though these things are on record. I know they're on record,

1184
01:03:22,800 --> 01:03:25,160
Speaker 1: but the I don't think the average Joe likes says

1185
01:03:25,360 --> 01:03:28,120
Speaker 1: I'm a good FI and and you know.

1186
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:31,320
Speaker 3: There were reservations. You know, we we talked about it.

1187
01:03:31,400 --> 01:03:33,640
Speaker 3: You know, we felt like, you know, what's going to

1188
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 3: happen if we put this stuff in? You know, is

1189
01:03:35,440 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 3: it gonna are we going to be doing this the

1190
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:41,000
Speaker 3: service of the FBI. And we talked about it constantly,

1191
01:03:41,080 --> 01:03:42,840
Speaker 3: but we knew that if we left it out, someone

1192
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:45,720
Speaker 3: would say, well, you guys really just you know, tried

1193
01:03:45,720 --> 01:03:49,080
Speaker 3: to clean this up and not whitewashed actor King whitewash it.

1194
01:03:49,160 --> 01:03:51,640
Speaker 3: So you know, we we talked about it, We talked

1195
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:53,600
Speaker 3: about we talked about it, We tried that, we tried

1196
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:57,360
Speaker 3: different versions of the section about supposed the supposed great

1197
01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:00,960
Speaker 3: until we felt we were doing we were being responded filmmakers.

1198
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 3: So you know, it's it's never sometimes the decisions you

1199
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:07,520
Speaker 3: make are never easy, but you have to make a decision.

1200
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:10,320
Speaker 3: And that's that when we say, okay, let's make the decision.

1201
01:04:10,320 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 3: We're going to put it in. We're going to try

1202
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:13,840
Speaker 3: to be responsible filmmakers and tell it in a way

1203
01:04:14,240 --> 01:04:16,600
Speaker 3: that doesn't sound doesn't seem salacious.

1204
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 1: Were there things that you discovered in Uh? Well, first

1205
01:04:21,000 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 1: of all, what is the research besides the book? How

1206
01:04:26,040 --> 01:04:29,880
Speaker 1: much personal research do you as director have to do

1207
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:32,640
Speaker 1: and not just like okay with your team or that

1208
01:04:32,760 --> 01:04:33,440
Speaker 1: sort of No.

1209
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:35,640
Speaker 3: No, you got to read books, you got to read articles.

1210
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:37,520
Speaker 3: You know, you try to do as much research as

1211
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:41,040
Speaker 3: you can so you understand the subject you're going to tackle,

1212
01:04:41,720 --> 01:04:43,960
Speaker 3: and then you bring on an archivo producer to help

1213
01:04:44,000 --> 01:04:47,160
Speaker 3: you find the material that you think can help visualize

1214
01:04:47,240 --> 01:04:50,960
Speaker 3: and orally tell orally tell the story, you know, so

1215
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:53,160
Speaker 3: you always I mean, when you're making these films, you

1216
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 3: got to do homework. You know, you could do homework.

1217
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 3: You could you could do homework on any of these

1218
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:01,560
Speaker 3: documentaries for two three years before you make the film.

1219
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:04,400
Speaker 3: But sometimes you get schedules and you have to sort

1220
01:05:04,440 --> 01:05:07,560
Speaker 3: of do it faster, you know. So I read the book,

1221
01:05:08,080 --> 01:05:09,920
Speaker 3: I read some of the letters, I read some of

1222
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:14,040
Speaker 3: the friend of Freedom of Information Act material, you know,

1223
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:17,120
Speaker 3: and Ben did also, so we knew what we were doing.

1224
01:05:17,600 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 2: You know, did the King family have well given especially

1225
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:23,160
Speaker 2: given who you are, did they have any like heads

1226
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:23,680
Speaker 2: up or.

1227
01:05:25,520 --> 01:05:25,840
Speaker 1: Okay?

1228
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:30,120
Speaker 3: Because we know the King family is litigious. You know,

1229
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:34,160
Speaker 3: they're looking at they're looking to make money, you know,

1230
01:05:34,400 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 3: and when they're making money, it's you know, we knew

1231
01:05:38,120 --> 01:05:41,040
Speaker 3: that they want to they want to charge for any

1232
01:05:41,080 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 3: time you see doctor King's image or hear his voice.

1233
01:05:44,360 --> 01:05:48,200
Speaker 3: And you know, the amazing thing, you know is that

1234
01:05:48,280 --> 01:05:51,320
Speaker 3: they didn't shoot that footage. It was shot by networks

1235
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:54,320
Speaker 3: and stuff like that. But they feel proprietory sort of

1236
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:57,160
Speaker 3: you know, ownership of their father's image.

1237
01:05:57,240 --> 01:05:59,760
Speaker 2: And this brings up a good subject because I we

1238
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:05,480
Speaker 2: this of Mike Africa and uh, well, I'm sorry the directors,

1239
01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:16,280
Speaker 2: Tommy Tommy, yes, Tommy Oliver, I'm sorry who did it?

1240
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:19,840
Speaker 2: Who did their documentary? And it's interesting that people layman

1241
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:24,440
Speaker 2: don't understand how people get paid for like their appearances

1242
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:28,080
Speaker 2: in documentaries and things of that nature. And I was

1243
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 2: I kind of learned a little on this process of

1244
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:33,520
Speaker 2: a mirror doing songs of songs that shook, but just

1245
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:36,680
Speaker 2: of archival and breaking down like how it's not really

1246
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:41,800
Speaker 2: a money making situation with documentaries, right, Like you shouldn't

1247
01:06:41,840 --> 01:06:44,479
Speaker 2: be thinking in that way, but when you do, there's

1248
01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:47,480
Speaker 2: a way, there's a different way of doing things. Am

1249
01:06:47,480 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 2: I wrong in saying that? Well, it's correct me saying

1250
01:06:51,240 --> 01:06:52,440
Speaker 2: correctly If I'm not.

1251
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:55,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, you should never you should never think you're going

1252
01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:58,400
Speaker 3: to make a documentary to make money because that's not

1253
01:06:58,760 --> 01:07:00,000
Speaker 3: really ever happened.

1254
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:02,320
Speaker 2: But even some of the participants who feel like they're

1255
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:04,320
Speaker 2: a part of this story and this mood, this this

1256
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:06,920
Speaker 2: project is going to make money. So if I'm seeing

1257
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:11,200
Speaker 2: on camera, then I should make a But even.

1258
01:07:11,000 --> 01:07:17,480
Speaker 1: If they break the record for highest documentary, the.

1259
01:07:17,480 --> 01:07:19,640
Speaker 3: Rule of thumb is you should never pay a subject

1260
01:07:19,640 --> 01:07:20,600
Speaker 3: to do a documentary.

1261
01:07:21,680 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 1: I found out something in this process. Okay, Well, I

1262
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:29,800
Speaker 1: found out that if the subject is the executive producer

1263
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:33,600
Speaker 1: of the project, like, that's kind of a conflict of interest.

1264
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:38,280
Speaker 1: So that in other words, like because Wu Tang insisted

1265
01:07:38,400 --> 01:07:42,680
Speaker 1: on being the executive producers of that documentary, they're not

1266
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:48,120
Speaker 1: eligible for uh you know, like awards. He's like for it.

1267
01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:51,240
Speaker 1: I guess that would be an Emmy thing. They wouldn't

1268
01:07:51,280 --> 01:07:55,680
Speaker 1: be eligible. And also you cannot pay yourself. You can't

1269
01:07:55,680 --> 01:08:01,040
Speaker 1: pay a subject to be a talking head. However, right, however,

1270
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:05,680
Speaker 1: I found out there's a slight. I don't know if

1271
01:08:05,680 --> 01:08:08,000
Speaker 1: this is the magician giving away that's.

1272
01:08:07,880 --> 01:08:09,480
Speaker 2: What I thought I was doing when I said the

1273
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:11,800
Speaker 2: archival thing, right, yeah.

1274
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:14,600
Speaker 3: If someone has if someone has something that you wanted

1275
01:08:14,600 --> 01:08:17,200
Speaker 3: to use in your film, arch title or skills.

1276
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:19,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, you say quote archival.

1277
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:23,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're paying your license in their materials that you

1278
01:08:23,800 --> 01:08:24,120
Speaker 3: can do.

1279
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:28,519
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I will say that that's that's a loop

1280
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:32,799
Speaker 1: around it. You can do archival. Okay, Okay, that's the sort.

1281
01:08:32,640 --> 01:08:38,120
Speaker 3: Of thing I'm never going to pay.

1282
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:42,880
Speaker 2: I got though, I get it together.

1283
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:44,599
Speaker 3: That may change it.

1284
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:49,799
Speaker 1: So, Sam, I just want to talk about the upcoming

1285
01:08:49,880 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 1: projects you have. Well, in particular the the the Negro

1286
01:08:55,120 --> 01:08:58,000
Speaker 1: League project that you're proposing. So since you're at the

1287
01:08:58,040 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 1: beginning of it, what in your like, in your mind,

1288
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:04,000
Speaker 1: do you already have an outline of what you want

1289
01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:05,880
Speaker 1: to achieve or is it still a thing where you

1290
01:09:05,920 --> 01:09:09,920
Speaker 1: have to see what you're given and then add to

1291
01:09:09,960 --> 01:09:10,880
Speaker 1: it later, or.

1292
01:09:11,640 --> 01:09:14,200
Speaker 3: It's a it's a combination of both. I mean, in

1293
01:09:14,240 --> 01:09:16,960
Speaker 3: the case of the negro Leagues, we know we have

1294
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:22,000
Speaker 3: you know, uh, Bob Madley, Brian's father to help tell

1295
01:09:22,040 --> 01:09:24,920
Speaker 3: that story, right, he's gonna We're gonna do it. And

1296
01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:27,760
Speaker 3: I've been reading this book again, so we know we're

1297
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:30,439
Speaker 3: gonna have elements from his life to tell that story.

1298
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:33,000
Speaker 3: And then the other element I know that we're going

1299
01:09:33,080 --> 01:09:35,799
Speaker 3: to have to tell the story is the archival images,

1300
01:09:36,040 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 3: religion stills to tell the story. And we also have

1301
01:09:39,920 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 3: this this this this box full of interviews that that

1302
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:45,559
Speaker 3: Byron did over the years, and I'm gonna use and

1303
01:09:45,640 --> 01:09:48,120
Speaker 3: in this particular case, because some of it's not shot,

1304
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:50,439
Speaker 3: so well, I'm gonna use it as audio. I'm gonna

1305
01:09:50,479 --> 01:09:54,240
Speaker 3: use it as audio only, okay, because I don't want

1306
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:55,800
Speaker 3: to see some of these people on camera. I'm gonna

1307
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:58,120
Speaker 3: do it audio to help tell that story, you know.

1308
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:01,160
Speaker 3: And the other element that that I you know, you've

1309
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:05,000
Speaker 3: heard me say this is to create these impressionistic recreations

1310
01:10:05,040 --> 01:10:08,120
Speaker 3: of the fields, of the places they played, of the

1311
01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:10,960
Speaker 3: of the of the locker rooms they were in, give

1312
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:15,280
Speaker 3: you a sense of that experience to make it. My

1313
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:18,320
Speaker 3: attitude is to try to make this film as poetic

1314
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:22,760
Speaker 3: and informative it's possible, you know, in a different way

1315
01:10:22,800 --> 01:10:25,200
Speaker 3: than I've did in ok FBI. This one. I wanted

1316
01:10:25,200 --> 01:10:27,720
Speaker 3: to have more poetry, you know, this, whereas I want

1317
01:10:27,720 --> 01:10:31,479
Speaker 3: the music to sort of you know, replicate the period

1318
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:36,120
Speaker 3: that the negro leagues evolved through, you know. So that'll

1319
01:10:36,160 --> 01:10:38,800
Speaker 3: take me back to this. There was a great musician

1320
01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 3: for my taste, you know, from the from the early thirties,

1321
01:10:43,720 --> 01:10:48,880
Speaker 3: you know, you know name, what was his name, Ernie Fields.

1322
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:51,360
Speaker 3: He had he had he had a great jump band

1323
01:10:51,360 --> 01:10:54,320
Speaker 3: in the thirties, and his music would be absolutely appropriate

1324
01:10:54,360 --> 01:10:57,280
Speaker 3: for the negro leagues, you know, even quite honestly, you know,

1325
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:01,200
Speaker 3: Count Besie's early bands come out of that side. What's feel,

1326
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:04,040
Speaker 3: you know whatever, That would be a great feel for

1327
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:08,400
Speaker 3: that period. Also, you know, yeah, herschel Evans and Lester Young,

1328
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:12,160
Speaker 3: you know, and Ben Webster. You know. So my head's

1329
01:11:12,200 --> 01:11:15,200
Speaker 3: already thinking the kind of musical template I want to

1330
01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:16,920
Speaker 3: use to help tell this story.

1331
01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:21,280
Speaker 1: My final question is is there a film project that

1332
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:26,599
Speaker 1: you long to do that you haven't and that also

1333
01:11:26,640 --> 01:11:30,679
Speaker 1: includes nondocumentary stuff as well, like is there a fantasy

1334
01:11:30,720 --> 01:11:33,960
Speaker 1: film that you want to knock out the box?

1335
01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:36,720
Speaker 3: Well? You know, I got the Max Shrow Show, which

1336
01:11:36,760 --> 01:11:40,519
Speaker 3: is almost done tweaking now, and if I had, if

1337
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:43,960
Speaker 3: there's if there was a fantasy film I had to do. Man,

1338
01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:49,400
Speaker 3: you know, I was listening to I would do a film.

1339
01:11:50,360 --> 01:11:53,080
Speaker 3: I would do a film not about Blue Note Records.

1340
01:11:53,520 --> 01:11:57,439
Speaker 3: I would do a film about the musicians who were

1341
01:11:57,479 --> 01:11:59,720
Speaker 3: probably Blue Note Records, but who had a style that

1342
01:12:00,120 --> 01:12:03,040
Speaker 3: the change from what I call that Hardbot period to

1343
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:08,880
Speaker 3: the post Coltrane McCoy tyner period. Listening to people like

1344
01:12:08,960 --> 01:12:14,120
Speaker 3: Joe Henderson and Sonny Rollins, you know, Freddie Waits, you know,

1345
01:12:14,439 --> 01:12:16,360
Speaker 3: you know, because I mean I'm so into the music

1346
01:12:16,400 --> 01:12:17,760
Speaker 3: that's my head always, you know.

1347
01:12:18,280 --> 01:12:21,679
Speaker 1: Okay, So basically the stuff that Ken didn't cover in

1348
01:12:21,720 --> 01:12:24,040
Speaker 1: his documentary.

1349
01:12:23,439 --> 01:12:28,640
Speaker 3: Is exactly right, man, exactly right. Joe Henderson, Man, No,

1350
01:12:28,840 --> 01:12:30,000
Speaker 3: Freddie waits you know.

1351
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:33,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I get it. Well, Sam, I thank you for

1352
01:12:33,800 --> 01:12:35,960
Speaker 1: coming on the show. We really appreciate it was fun.

1353
01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:38,000
Speaker 3: It was fun, guys, and this.

1354
01:12:38,040 --> 01:12:38,639
Speaker 4: Was super fun.

1355
01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:39,160
Speaker 1: Yeah man.

1356
01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:41,240
Speaker 4: And if you see Brendon's telling myself what up?

1357
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:42,960
Speaker 1: Because give me that, give me that wrapp again?

1358
01:12:43,080 --> 01:12:44,320
Speaker 3: Man for the opening.

1359
01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:49,920
Speaker 6: Pimps on a stroll, Holes on the road, meet can

1360
01:12:50,040 --> 01:12:55,879
Speaker 6: did she's looking Dan dig on a Friday night. Everyone knows.

1361
01:12:56,080 --> 01:13:00,760
Speaker 6: The names change, but the game remain. It's the same.

1362
01:13:03,120 --> 01:13:06,200
Speaker 1: I don't know who you are any more fun. I

1363
01:13:06,280 --> 01:13:11,240
Speaker 1: do not know who you are, ladies and gentlemen.

1364
01:13:11,280 --> 01:13:12,479
Speaker 4: Who who's scoring?

1365
01:13:12,640 --> 01:13:13,280
Speaker 1: What's at the point?

1366
01:13:13,600 --> 01:13:14,240
Speaker 3: Anybody?

1367
01:13:14,280 --> 01:13:20,280
Speaker 1: Anybody you know?

1368
01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:23,640
Speaker 3: Because because bo is his brother is Jimmy Owens a

1369
01:13:23,680 --> 01:13:25,120
Speaker 3: trumpet player? Good night?

1370
01:13:28,360 --> 01:13:32,920
Speaker 1: Yes that's crazy, all right? Well on behalf of like yeah,

1371
01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:35,960
Speaker 1: sugar Steve, I'm paying Bill and Fante and thank you

1372
01:13:35,960 --> 01:13:38,320
Speaker 1: saying Paula this quest left signing off we will see

1373
01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:39,920
Speaker 1: you on the next go around and west left Supreme,

1374
01:13:40,000 --> 01:13:44,200
Speaker 1: thank you good, take care of very yo.

1375
01:13:44,320 --> 01:13:46,680
Speaker 4: What's up? This is Fante. Make sure you keep up

1376
01:13:46,720 --> 01:13:49,400
Speaker 4: with us on Instagram at quls and let us know

1377
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:50,960
Speaker 4: what you think. And we should be next to sit

1378
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:53,639
Speaker 4: down with us. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast

1379
01:13:53,800 --> 01:13:54,160
Speaker 4: all Right.

1380
01:13:54,640 --> 01:14:04,920
Speaker 8: Peace Must Love Supreme is a production on iHeartRadio.

1381
01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:12,280
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1382
01:14:12,680 --> 01:14:14,360
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.