Speaker 1: Wind down and Michael and podcast spoiler alert. Oh, welcome
Speaker 1: back to the show. My Mom January is over. I
Speaker 1: gotta ask you a question. Did you listen to any
Speaker 1: of the Mom January? I haven't yet have that. No,
Speaker 1: I'm going to I think it was I missed it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it was it was hard. It's like it was
Speaker 1: kind of like when you know, I first got out
Speaker 1: of football. I couldn't watch football that first season because
Speaker 1: I wasn't a part of the team anymore. So it
Speaker 1: was like, uh, I'm not ready to listen yet. You're
Speaker 1: always a part of the team. Yeah, but I was
Speaker 1: kind of exile. You were not exibbed, although we were
Speaker 1: side commenting being like, you know, someone saved Mike. Where's
Speaker 1: throughout the raft and Mike, Um, No, it's just you know,
Speaker 1: we had it one episode. I think the first one
Speaker 1: was with Sean. I believe it was with Sean and
Speaker 1: Kristen and Catherine, and the reaction to the moms were
Speaker 1: just like, we want another one. So I figured where
Speaker 1: we were at, it would be a good opportunity to
Speaker 1: you know what, what can we turn this into? Because
Speaker 1: you know, I'm always trying to trying to be like Okay,
Speaker 1: what like, what can we do with with where we're
Speaker 1: at and like, you know, the podcast, and to make
Speaker 1: it something where it's still feels authentic and still feels
Speaker 1: real and um, you know, not fake or not any lies.
Speaker 1: So it's like mom January and someone just came up
Speaker 1: with mom Uary and I'm like, shoot, I gotta used
Speaker 1: that in January. So maybe next Momuary we'll do it again.
Speaker 1: But then you can come on and be the the dad,
Speaker 1: the voice for the husband, the voice for the husbands.
Speaker 1: Mark came in clutch a few times, but it's uncle
Speaker 1: Mark of courtunated. But no, I mean, I know Easton
Speaker 1: missed you. You know, It's funny. When I was uh unavailable,
Speaker 1: I texted Easton. I texted him a pictures. It was
Speaker 1: I was up in the media room and I was
Speaker 1: building that millennium falcon, Lego said, And that's when I said, hey,
Speaker 1: do you guys wanna where Mike's been building the up?
Speaker 1: And I sent it to Easton. I was like, well,
Speaker 1: I guess being an exilely too bad. Now, Okay, I
Speaker 1: mean I feel like we should address that elephant in
Speaker 1: the room because I don't want the listeners to think
Speaker 1: that I just kicked you off the podcast or that
Speaker 1: it was just like because that's that's not the case
Speaker 1: at all, and all right, all joking aside, real talk time,
Speaker 1: serious wine down time. The thing is, you know, Jane
Speaker 1: and I are very honest, very vulnerable on this podcast.
Speaker 1: That's part of why all of you listen, which we
Speaker 1: greatly appreciate. The fact of the matter is we are
Speaker 1: still two people with real life problems, and we still
Speaker 1: reserve our right to privacy to a certain extent, and
Speaker 1: it's our choice to come out and share a lot
Speaker 1: of this with you. We learned the hard way when
Speaker 1: we came out and try to have that show after
Speaker 1: the whole picture deleting incident, and we realized after that,
Speaker 1: we learned a lot that you know, we can't share
Speaker 1: open wounds. They have to be scars and has to
Speaker 1: be something we process first together. And so this past month,
Speaker 1: you know, we still have growing to do in our
Speaker 1: relationship um together and both individually and for me, it's uh,
Speaker 1: it was really a time with things that went on
Speaker 1: with us to really dig into and and face face
Speaker 1: the facts of things that can be doing better in
Speaker 1: my own recovery and growing as a person. And growing
Speaker 1: as a husband. Um, so we're really kind of like
Speaker 1: Janna said, she she was able to buy buy me
Speaker 1: some more time to do that, which I which I appreciate. UM,
Speaker 1: And I was very you know, understanding supportive of her.
Speaker 1: And you know, I did an individual intensive um over
Speaker 1: a long weekend and did a lot of work on myself.
Speaker 1: And I mean, Jane and I are in the myths
Speaker 1: of doing a couple is intensive right now and doing work, um,
Speaker 1: you know, with each other. But it's, uh, it's something
Speaker 1: that we're gonna we're gonna dive into at her at
Speaker 1: a later time, right, honey. Well, if I'm if I'm
Speaker 1: listener and if I'm Mark, you know, they're always like
Speaker 1: why dance around it? And um, if you're going to
Speaker 1: be honest, be honest. And I feel like and I
Speaker 1: get that piece and I understand what you're saying to
Speaker 1: you know, the actual specifics is something where you know,
Speaker 1: we've been we've been journaling and writing stories. Our story
Speaker 1: that sounds so crazy on paper, you know, and it
Speaker 1: doesn't make sense. Since I was reading it, I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: I like this is crazy. But we've also been able
Speaker 1: to write down the resolve of how we were able
Speaker 1: to resolve that certain issue. And you know, with this incident,
Speaker 1: are we ready to share it? No? But will we yes?
Speaker 1: And whether that's us putting something out there later. Right now,
Speaker 1: it just feels like what we learned from that incident.
Speaker 1: And I think what it's hard to is because you know,
Speaker 1: everyone's just looking for like the next headline. And what
Speaker 1: hurts us is, like Mike said, we're two people were
Speaker 1: trying to share. We are sharing, We're being vulnerable with you.
Speaker 1: But when someone gets it wrong, you know, for example,
Speaker 1: you know they have they will have put Mike relapsed.
Speaker 1: Well that's to someone. They're gonna think, Okay, he relapsed
Speaker 1: with another person, or he relapsed. You know, they're going
Speaker 1: to come up with something that is harmful for not
Speaker 1: only us, but harmful to what we're building and harmful
Speaker 1: to the message that we're like no, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: like they're just reading, oh no, he relapsed again. I
Speaker 1: remember reading that, thinking but he didn't. He didn't. He
Speaker 1: didn't physically cheat. It within me like he yes, he
Speaker 1: with he might have broken a boundary, but that isn't
Speaker 1: he didn't. So I'm like still hurt, but yet still
Speaker 1: trying to defend him at the same time, and it
Speaker 1: becomes this massive conflict where it's that we want to share,
Speaker 1: but then we get afraid of what they're gonna misread
Speaker 1: and that and you know, what we know is and
Speaker 1: I think you can attest to this is what you
Speaker 1: know is the last out when you were so um
Speaker 1: when the last year and a half, since the one
Speaker 1: relapse that was a potential like you were, You've came
Speaker 1: out with that that you almost acted on it, that
Speaker 1: was that was a relapse, but you didn't act on it.
Speaker 1: But since then you've come to realize that you haven't
Speaker 1: been truly working your program. Yeah. And in something I've've
Speaker 1: kind of discovered in my own work this past month
Speaker 1: and that I've kind of had discussions with Jana about,
Speaker 1: is you know, there's a big difference between Live being
Speaker 1: a not acting out program or not drinking programmer, or
Speaker 1: not using drugs program versus a life changing program. And
Speaker 1: I had to get real with myself and I had
Speaker 1: to realize, I'm like, there's a lot of things in
Speaker 1: my life that I'm not doing different, and it just
Speaker 1: feels like at times I'm going through the motion and
Speaker 1: but when I'm regardless, even if I'm not relapsing or
Speaker 1: acting out or stepping outside of our marriage, if I'm
Speaker 1: still breaking boundaries, we're not being completely honest with things
Speaker 1: like that picture stuff and other things. It's like, how
Speaker 1: is that sober? How is that life changing? How is
Speaker 1: that living with integrity? It's not, And so it just
Speaker 1: you know, we needed time to again grow individually, grow
Speaker 1: as a couple, and like Janna said, we're not trying
Speaker 1: to dance around anything or withhold it from our listeners.
Speaker 1: I mean, the reality is there was a boundary that
Speaker 1: was broken, but that was harmful for me because it
Speaker 1: was a discovery. But again, it wasn't a physical acting out.
Speaker 1: So that's why I'm very careful, and because I do
Speaker 1: want to protect you as well, because I don't want
Speaker 1: people to think that it was a physical relapse. But
Speaker 1: it was also it was such a big discovery with
Speaker 1: a boundary that it was harmful to me in our relationship,
Speaker 1: which made you then realize, oh my god, I've been
Speaker 1: living in this lies of justifications, and I mean, you
Speaker 1: can speak more on that. So the people the females
Speaker 1: are listeners can maybe understand their husbands or their partners
Speaker 1: a little bit more, but where they're living in that
Speaker 1: they think that because they're not acting out, it's okay
Speaker 1: to do a B and C, when in all actuality,
Speaker 1: that's if that partner finds out and that's a boundary,
Speaker 1: it's going to affect them, and it's it is that
Speaker 1: justification where you know, sometimes at least for myself, I
Speaker 1: can't speak for everyone, but it is we try to
Speaker 1: make it or I try to make it black and
Speaker 1: white where it's like, hey, I'm not acting out. I'm
Speaker 1: not you know, physically looking at anything, physically looking at
Speaker 1: anything inappropriate. I'm not you know, acting it's out of marriage,
Speaker 1: I'm not whatever it is, I'm not doing that. So
Speaker 1: what I'm doing is okay. And it's like that justification
Speaker 1: where that's my defense and it's taking some time for
Speaker 1: me to realize, like, oh wait, this is still triggering
Speaker 1: you in ways that didn't realize. And there's also that
Speaker 1: piece where it's still a lie and still the justification
Speaker 1: is a lie with what you're telling our relationship. So
Speaker 1: that piece is still when I ask you, hey, any
Speaker 1: secrets are lies that can be that is a secret
Speaker 1: and a lie, but you've justified it as not being one,
Speaker 1: and that's harmful when someone discovers it and it's like,
Speaker 1: but wait, I thought, but I can. I can totally
Speaker 1: see on your side where you think where you can
Speaker 1: think that. But I think now you've also seen the
Speaker 1: opposite effect too of what that discovery and what that
Speaker 1: lie does, because I've always said, it's not about the act,
Speaker 1: it's about the lie, it's about the discovery. It's about
Speaker 1: because that brings me back to day one of the
Speaker 1: discovery for sure. So yeah, to bring it full circle,
Speaker 1: it's we're not trying to dance around it. We're just
Speaker 1: trying to reserve the right to us details right now
Speaker 1: for our own privacy, because we've seen how when tabloids
Speaker 1: or publications listen to this and they take things and
Speaker 1: run with it, it is harmful for our relationship when
Speaker 1: they get it wrong. And then next thing, you know,
Speaker 1: I have to see shameful things in the news. Janna
Speaker 1: has to see comments that are degrading or judgmental, and
Speaker 1: that that takes a toll on you. I don't care
Speaker 1: who you are, and as much as we don't let
Speaker 1: it affect us, after a while, it does, especially when
Speaker 1: you leave live and share this openly and vulnerably vulnerably
Speaker 1: that we do. And again hopefully we'll be able to
Speaker 1: come out with you know, our stories and then we
Speaker 1: will certain things like hey, this happened. Uh yeah, um no,
Speaker 1: but where it's like this happened and this is how
Speaker 1: we dealt with it. And I think you know bottom
Speaker 1: line was you know, was a boundary broken? Yes? Was
Speaker 1: it harmful for me? Yes? Because of now was it
Speaker 1: out of marriage? Did he relapse? No? But I mean
Speaker 1: you can speak on it like you've re Yeah, every
Speaker 1: set my time, because that was what I needed to
Speaker 1: I would have felt like I was still justifying if
Speaker 1: I didn't, like I'll still I would still be excusing
Speaker 1: behavior that really wasn't different from what I was doing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I wasn't acting out, but still, how is that? How
Speaker 1: is that any change? You know? How is that showing
Speaker 1: you anything and showing myself anything? So I know the
Speaker 1: answer because we've danced around this the past month with
Speaker 1: the therapy and you know, been on my knees trying
Speaker 1: to understand it, and um, for everyone that's listening and
Speaker 1: that it's kind of in this has been in the
Speaker 1: same situation. How well, why why do you justify What
Speaker 1: makes you justify um when you know that it could
Speaker 1: be hurtful or harmful and it's and then it's a
Speaker 1: boundary that you know that I said I wouldn't do this,
Speaker 1: but uh so what to help the other ladies out
Speaker 1: there understand because I know now, because you know, but
Speaker 1: it might be helpful for other people to hear that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's uh it's it's. It is a difficult thing to explain.
Speaker 1: But from the work we've done, the work I've done,
Speaker 1: what it's come down to for me is it really
Speaker 1: it's a selfish thought. First of all, it's self preservation
Speaker 1: and it's really entitlement to Yeah, it's it's pride, an
Speaker 1: entitlement because it's really hard to sit in the pain
Speaker 1: and the consequences of our actions, it really is. And
Speaker 1: as a man two sit in the in that pain
Speaker 1: and that shame of what you've done and what you've
Speaker 1: done to somebody that you love. How do you think
Speaker 1: of yourself if as a man, you know, if if
Speaker 1: you're not living with integrity and the way a good
Speaker 1: man and good husband should. So, how do we regain that?
Speaker 1: It's by trying to puff out our chest, plan our
Speaker 1: flag on the mountain with pride, an ego and entitlement
Speaker 1: and incomes justification for doing things that we know rationally
Speaker 1: probably shouldn't be doing. It can be harmful. Um. And
Speaker 1: that's just that's just been real, honestly, And that's what
Speaker 1: comes down to you for me when you're in that
Speaker 1: place and you know I know that. Again. We danced
Speaker 1: on this a lot the last month and I said
Speaker 1: it every night we've done a check in and he said,
Speaker 1: no lies, no secrets. How do you justify that's not
Speaker 1: a line, that's not a secret. Please know that I'm
Speaker 1: not like I'm beating you up right now, just for
Speaker 1: sure feel like we're in a good space. No, we're
Speaker 1: in a great space. It's a it comes down to
Speaker 1: looking at it black and white, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: where it's just like it's not a line of secret
Speaker 1: because I'm not really acting now. I'm not doing the
Speaker 1: big things that the tabloids say that, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean that the real major big things that everyone
Speaker 1: assumes is the issue. Um. And so it is it's
Speaker 1: just that rational rationalization justification that I'm a man, I
Speaker 1: can I can do this. It's not I'm not doing
Speaker 1: the big thing. I'm not taking a drink, mh. I'm
Speaker 1: just doing something different that you know, and that's where
Speaker 1: you know kind of Over the last month we talked
Speaker 1: about where I think for the first time, I've realized
Speaker 1: and accepted that boundaries that we have in our relationship
Speaker 1: aren't about controlling me. It is about your safety. And
Speaker 1: even if I said that in the past, I don't
Speaker 1: know if, like in my core, I felt that or
Speaker 1: believed it because I didn't think I had a choice.
Speaker 1: I just thought I had to do what you need
Speaker 1: and what you said because that's what you said you needed,
Speaker 1: and I just is it not what your program And
Speaker 1: that's and but that's the ship, right, that's the difference
Speaker 1: between me then and me now realizing that that's not
Speaker 1: just for your safety, that's for my safety. You know
Speaker 1: that at I need that too to to be where
Speaker 1: I want to be and go where I want to
Speaker 1: go and be who I am. So it's a but
Speaker 1: it's tough for any man to too. I don't think
Speaker 1: there are many men out there that, when in these
Speaker 1: kind of situations, when boundaries come up, that were like,
Speaker 1: all right, sounds great, and just live within the boundaries
Speaker 1: with no kind of feeling internally there's gonna be that
Speaker 1: eventual pushback by majority of men. Is it because you
Speaker 1: put us in that role of you can't do this
Speaker 1: like the dictator? Yeah? And it's hard because even though
Speaker 1: our actions are what created that dynamic, h, we still
Speaker 1: want to blame you. It's so interesting and it's messed up.
Speaker 1: It is, you know, it's just like, uh, what what?
Speaker 1: I think it's the immaturity of men um where it's
Speaker 1: just like a kid, right, like most kids are high
Speaker 1: schoolers are immature. So when our parents disciplined us as
Speaker 1: high schoolers or as kids, even though our actions are
Speaker 1: there are what our discipline has got us in this situation,
Speaker 1: we still say that's not fair. It's so unfair. Why
Speaker 1: would you do that? Well, it's because you did something
Speaker 1: we asked you not to do, so I think that's
Speaker 1: that's what comes up for us. It's like the child
Speaker 1: inside of us and men I think just a naturally
Speaker 1: more immature, right than than women, especially emotionally more immature
Speaker 1: than women. So it's like that little boy inside of
Speaker 1: us that's like, that's not fair. I don't want to
Speaker 1: don't ground me, you know, I want to play Mario brothers.
Speaker 1: So it's it is part of that. And and so
Speaker 1: finally feeling like I can be in a place to accept,
Speaker 1: truly accept responsibilities for my actions but not just think
Speaker 1: of think of them as the responsibility consequences of my actions,
Speaker 1: but also realizing that it's for safety for both of us,
Speaker 1: and boundaries are something that we agree upon. Okay, I
Speaker 1: am are you okay? I see your eyes a little bit.
Speaker 1: It's just been a really heavy month. Yeah, And the
Speaker 1: heaviness isn't um sorry, um, it's a it's a heaviness,
Speaker 1: but it's also like a gratefulness that like we can
Speaker 1: still be sitting here conversating um. But it's also that
Speaker 1: fear too. I think that's the been the hardest part
Speaker 1: of this month, is you know, we've both individually done
Speaker 1: a lot of work and then we've done obviously you
Speaker 1: were now intensive from nine am to five pm today,
Speaker 1: So it's just like just a lot of work, and
Speaker 1: so it just feels I feels so heavy, um. But
Speaker 1: it also feels um, you know, I feel and I
Speaker 1: never m I think I've always been afraid to use
Speaker 1: this word, but I do feel hopeful for like the
Speaker 1: tools that we've been learning. Um, but it's also very scary,
Speaker 1: and you know, I feel like I have some ownership
Speaker 1: and you know feeling. You know, I've read back on
Speaker 1: comments about this and they're like, you know, you don't
Speaker 1: seem like you respect your husband or you talk down
Speaker 1: to him, and you know, there's ownership that I can
Speaker 1: take in that, because I've had a hard time respecting
Speaker 1: you at times because of the constant betrayals and that's
Speaker 1: but I's so so it's so hard, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I want to take an accountability for it, but yet
Speaker 1: then it's so hard because I'm so afraid to be hurt.
Speaker 1: So it's easier to just shell up and just and
Speaker 1: to be nasty or too that makes sense. It's easier,
Speaker 1: it's easier to be angry. It's easier. It's more fun
Speaker 1: to be angry. No, it's not fun. Um, it's easier,
Speaker 1: but it is. I guess I'm I guess I'm looking
Speaker 1: right now for empathy. Yeah, in this moment right now,
Speaker 1: with like and the people that have had in the
Speaker 1: same situation, maybe I can speak on the wives and say,
Speaker 1: because of the constant lies, can you see how it
Speaker 1: might be hard to lean into you and to and
Speaker 1: to trust your word. Yeah. Absolutely, and I want you
Speaker 1: to know that right now. First of all, I appreciate
Speaker 1: I appreciate your vulnerability, and like I hear you and
Speaker 1: I see you right now, and I feel I feel
Speaker 1: your pain. I can't imagine how hard it is to
Speaker 1: lean into somebody who's hurt you so much. That is
Speaker 1: terrifying and I'll never know exactly how that feels because
Speaker 1: you haven't done that to me, And so I have
Speaker 1: so much respect for you. I have so much love
Speaker 1: for you and your willingness two to do work in
Speaker 1: our relationship, to even to be even to be able
Speaker 1: to even say that you're hopeful and willing to take
Speaker 1: ownership and look at yourself for a fraction of it.
Speaker 1: But I can totally get how hard that must be
Speaker 1: when you're like, well, look, dickhead, you should stop doing that.
Speaker 1: It won't be so mean, you know, mm hmm um.
Speaker 1: I'm devastated by that, and I'm really sorry that I've
Speaker 1: made it so difficult because I see you trying, I
Speaker 1: really do, and I see why you or the way
Speaker 1: you are at times because it's part of the environment
Speaker 1: that I created, and I have to own that Yeah, mhm, yeah,
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. It's it's Um, I want so bad
Speaker 1: badly to move forward and to have that marriage that
Speaker 1: we've always talked about and to see the man that
Speaker 1: you say you're always going to be. And I think
Speaker 1: a lot of other women can maybe relate to this
Speaker 1: to where it's like they keep saying, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to do that again, or I'll do better next time. UM.
Speaker 1: A therapist that we're working with right now, she said,
Speaker 1: I'll try is a lie. When someone says I'll try
Speaker 1: to do better, that's a lie. I'll try means that's
Speaker 1: that's that's a lie. Um. And so when that keeps happening,
Speaker 1: then I feel like, so so when the betrayal and
Speaker 1: the lies and the discoveries keep happening, it's becomes insanity
Speaker 1: in my world. And then I start to feel insane.
Speaker 1: I start to feel like and I think other women
Speaker 1: out there feel like they're creating or they're repeating it. Um,
Speaker 1: it's insanity repeating itself. Yeah, it's a groundhome day. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And it's like, but you say you're going to be
Speaker 1: this other man, but then you're not doing it, and
Speaker 1: then it makes us feel crazy and it makes us
Speaker 1: feel like we do we not deserve better? Do we
Speaker 1: not deserve more? Do we not deserve to feel love?
Speaker 1: Do we not deserve to be told the truth and
Speaker 1: to be honest with So then it just tail spins
Speaker 1: us and then I make up, and then I start
Speaker 1: taking off pictures on Instagram because I'm tail spinning. My
Speaker 1: my my younger child is like, I'm, I'm, I'm you know,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm. I start just spinning out of control. It's cold,
Speaker 1: shut up, no, but I I just I feel like
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm not the only woman out there
Speaker 1: that's done that, but it's just it becomes so out
Speaker 1: of control that when you and that you know me,
Speaker 1: and I'm I'm already at my limit with discoveries and
Speaker 1: lies that I've I hit it and I was just
Speaker 1: like I pressed the button. I said, yes, this is
Speaker 1: where I'm now unraveling. And now I'm harmed again, and
Speaker 1: now it's shame on me. So I'm gonna I'm gonna
Speaker 1: wall up. And it's just and what I've learned with
Speaker 1: my therapist now that I feel like I can maybe
Speaker 1: give back to some of the women or men out
Speaker 1: there that I've got are going through similar situations, is
Speaker 1: you know what's hurt hurt versus harm Because a lot
Speaker 1: of times with people that have been in trauma relationships
Speaker 1: or um traumatic relationships is for me, where I go
Speaker 1: is I'm like, oh my god, I can't do this.
Speaker 1: I I like, you know, there you are again showing
Speaker 1: your cards. I'm I'm out, I want a divorce, like
Speaker 1: I can't do this. But really what I'm wanting is
Speaker 1: safety and to feel loved and to feel security, and
Speaker 1: to want to feel like he chooses me and that
Speaker 1: I'm good enough to be told the truth. But what
Speaker 1: happens is whether it's a hurt or harm, I go
Speaker 1: straight to the the I can't do this, Oh my god.
Speaker 1: And so what I've had to discover and therapy is, Okay,
Speaker 1: what is hurtful verse harmful? What? Because I know you're
Speaker 1: going to hurt me again. I know that we were
Speaker 1: going to have arguments that are going to hurt, and
Speaker 1: we're going to say things and it's not going to
Speaker 1: be perfect. I know. But I can't go down the
Speaker 1: line of oh my god, I can't do this anymore
Speaker 1: because that's just that's a cycle that we both It's
Speaker 1: not fair for you. It's not fair for me. It's
Speaker 1: not fair for anyone. It's not fair for my friends
Speaker 1: that call. They're like, oh Jesus, your thirtieth time, and
Speaker 1: he said you're done. So it becomes this like run
Speaker 1: on and so it's like, okay, I wrote down a
Speaker 1: list of for me in this might be something that
Speaker 1: can be helpful for the listeners to. I wrote down
Speaker 1: a list of what's hurtful and what's harmful. What's something
Speaker 1: where I physically cannot hold anymore. I physically cannot handle
Speaker 1: if he lies about this or I discover this, or
Speaker 1: this happens versus. You know, he was mean and said
Speaker 1: something mean to me. Am I going to go to
Speaker 1: I can't do this anymore, you know, But my first
Speaker 1: reaction is always to go to that I can't do
Speaker 1: this anymore. You haven't and sorry, real fast. I just
Speaker 1: want to get this piece because I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people can wait to this do. I go to,
Speaker 1: you don't know what you've done, you don't know how
Speaker 1: bad you've hurt me. You have no empathy for what
Speaker 1: I've gone through, and you don't feel my pain. And
Speaker 1: I start then repeating the trauma and he's like, you know,
Speaker 1: he and he's like, you've already said that a million times,
Speaker 1: But I keep repeating and repeating and repeating it because
Speaker 1: I don't feel the empathy and I don't feel that
Speaker 1: he truly understands it. So that's why I keep repeating
Speaker 1: it a million times, because I'm like, listen to me,
Speaker 1: hear me. I'm my five year old self right now.
Speaker 1: I need you to freaking hold me. I need you
Speaker 1: to tell me that you love me and that you're
Speaker 1: here from me and that you won't leave me, and
Speaker 1: then I'm worth it, and then I deserve it. Mhm.
Speaker 1: So I think finding and that's the piece. Like the
Speaker 1: other day, we got into an argument, you know, just
Speaker 1: as silly poke back, poke back kind of argument, and
Speaker 1: in my past I would have said, oh my god, sir,
Speaker 1: you're not changing. I don't want to do this, I'm
Speaker 1: over it, and instead I was just like okay, Like
Speaker 1: I I was like, this is just a hurt, and
Speaker 1: we're going to figure this out from from the hurt place,
Speaker 1: not from the harm place, because the harm place. You
Speaker 1: now know how serious I am with what's going to
Speaker 1: happen in the hard place. Okay, So now that we
Speaker 1: have very clear boundaries of what is And I don't
Speaker 1: say that from I know that sounded probably like from
Speaker 1: a uh finger pointing, but you know, and from a
Speaker 1: very like soft place. And you know what is harmful
Speaker 1: for to me? That And it's not even in acting out, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not even there's something on that harmful list that
Speaker 1: doesn't involve him acting out with another female, but it's
Speaker 1: something that's so harmful for me, Like, for example, I'll
Speaker 1: tell you one a discovery. If I find a different
Speaker 1: discovery that involves a lie, I that is harmful for
Speaker 1: me and I physically cannot hold it anymore. And you've
Speaker 1: seen what happens when I when it does happen, and
Speaker 1: in the repeatedness of it, it's just and I think
Speaker 1: it's truly you've you've saw the past of mind because
Speaker 1: this has been the longest that we've been at odds,
Speaker 1: and I think you've really saw the Okay, wow, this
Speaker 1: is what happens for you when you discover X, Y,
Speaker 1: and Z and what that lie does to you. And
Speaker 1: you know, our therapist in Los Angeles and you're scraping
Speaker 1: him with the other day, he's like, most marriages don't
Speaker 1: end because of them cheating on their spouse. It ends
Speaker 1: because they lied to them. It ends because the other
Speaker 1: spouse discovered something, and that's what ends the marriage. And
Speaker 1: for and for the guy or for the person in
Speaker 1: my shoes in the relationship, we're like, Okay, yeah, we
Speaker 1: hear that, but we don't really believe it. Like I'm
Speaker 1: not cheating on you, I'm not sleeping with anybody else.
Speaker 1: It's not the same thing. It's not the same thing.
Speaker 1: You're that's bullsh You're not gonna, you know, be me
Speaker 1: because I just didn't tell you the exact truth or whatever.
Speaker 1: But no, they will. But why, like I mean, joking aside,
Speaker 1: joking aside, it's it's because it is so triggering because
Speaker 1: chances are people in our situation, the affair or the infidelity,
Speaker 1: it's most likely discovered. Very seldom are the cases that
Speaker 1: someone was honest and brought it to him, which kudos
Speaker 1: to you, but usually they are discovered. So it's not
Speaker 1: what they discovered is that act of discovering. So for Janna,
Speaker 1: when she has to has to discover something, it brings
Speaker 1: her right back to the beginning when initial discovery happened,
Speaker 1: and that is that is the trauma, especially if the
Speaker 1: lie was attached to it. That is the trauma in
Speaker 1: in in her life that I created because of my actions.
Speaker 1: And that's something, like Janna said, I clearly feel and
Speaker 1: understand in a way that I haven't before. Can I ask,
Speaker 1: just for the women are men, it took you to
Speaker 1: understand it now? Like what maybe why didn't you see
Speaker 1: the pain before? Why didn't you see it when you
Speaker 1: were in treatment? Or why didn't So I'm just like what,
Speaker 1: Like again, I know the answer, but I'm just what
Speaker 1: is it that? Why does it take certain relapses, are
Speaker 1: certain falls or certain and I think it's something something
Speaker 1: interesting you said to me too. I don't know if
Speaker 1: you want touch him, but you said I knew you
Speaker 1: wouldn't have left for the other times, So I don't
Speaker 1: know if you want touch on that too. Let's take
Speaker 1: a break and then I'll fill everybody in Welcome back, Mike.
Speaker 1: So before the break, Janna asked, basically what was the
Speaker 1: missing empathy piece? Like why is it taken this long
Speaker 1: for me to really see your pain? I think because
Speaker 1: I think that was when we went through our incident
Speaker 1: before the New year, it was just and it's like
Speaker 1: you saw the pain then but it's like, well, what
Speaker 1: took you? Like? What what about all the other times
Speaker 1: that you saw me in pain like that piece? It's
Speaker 1: like you know, and for women out there that feel
Speaker 1: the same way, where it's like a r will they
Speaker 1: ever feel the empathy and then be what what was
Speaker 1: it that took you to that piece? Um? It's just
Speaker 1: like in a lot of things in life or addiction
Speaker 1: or anything, it's you know, you don't really know that
Speaker 1: you hit bottom until you're there. And even when you
Speaker 1: think you hit bottom, you hit another bottom, and you
Speaker 1: think you hit bottom, you hit another bottom. Um, And
Speaker 1: I think too is and I'm not I don't want this.
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to make this a trend on this
Speaker 1: episode about speaking about men in general. But empathy doesn't
Speaker 1: come as natural maybe two men. And so I think
Speaker 1: part of how we're created and how we're the environment
Speaker 1: which we're raised, um, whether in home or societal. And
Speaker 1: uh so it's not a flip of a switch. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: it takes time. It takes time to learn how to
Speaker 1: actually lean in and not deaf, you know, defend your pride,
Speaker 1: to really just here the pain and sit in the
Speaker 1: pain and feel the pain of somebody else, they their
Speaker 1: pain is because of me. That's hard to do. We're
Speaker 1: not taught how to do that. We're taught to defend ourselves,
Speaker 1: to stand up for ourselves, to get over it, to
Speaker 1: not show emotion. So to be asked to sitting someone
Speaker 1: else's emotion, we can't even sit in ours. So it's
Speaker 1: you know, it just it took me time, unfortunately, and
Speaker 1: I'm sad about that because that's just adding more pain
Speaker 1: and more distance between us and our marriage. And I
Speaker 1: wish it we didn't have to go through so much.
Speaker 1: I really don't, you know, because I do choose you,
Speaker 1: I do love you, I do respect you, and I
Speaker 1: truly feel those things. But I know my actions I
Speaker 1: haven't always shown it and you always haven't felt it
Speaker 1: because of this, because of those actions. Ye. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean everyone else, everyone has their own timeline and
Speaker 1: the what do you do with the entitlement piece or
Speaker 1: the you know, for the guys or women that have
Speaker 1: that entitlement piece where it's um. You know, you've even
Speaker 1: said with your addict that you're like, yeah, I got it,
Speaker 1: What do you do with this? What are the steps
Speaker 1: that you're taking? I mean, I know but like, what
Speaker 1: for those out there that what are steps that you're
Speaker 1: doing too? Because I'm gonna say my steps that I
Speaker 1: have to do now, you know with the recovery piece,
Speaker 1: but what for you? What are the steps that is
Speaker 1: it acknowledgement? Is it leaning into recovery? Are you talking
Speaker 1: from purely a recovery standpoint? Are you talking from give
Speaker 1: me both for those dealing with either from just trying
Speaker 1: to change who they've been. Yeah, I think you can
Speaker 1: do both. I think you can do recovery and you
Speaker 1: can also do mm hmm. What for those people that
Speaker 1: aren't addicts or sex addicts or alcoholics or what can
Speaker 1: they do? What can they do to maybe help show
Speaker 1: some trust? Because I mean what I had said to
Speaker 1: you and just full disclosure, I was like, what do
Speaker 1: I have to hold onto? You've taken every piece of
Speaker 1: and you've said everything before. So what do I have
Speaker 1: that I can actually hold on to anymore? I don't?
Speaker 1: And that's been the hardest pieces to try to regain
Speaker 1: that the blocks again. Yeah, and you know it's I'm
Speaker 1: glad you say that because it reminded me of kind
Speaker 1: of sparked how I want to answer this and for
Speaker 1: so much of the past. So for years in this
Speaker 1: with you, you're hear in program, you hear from every
Speaker 1: therapist is you have to want this for yourself, and
Speaker 1: that's just that's addiction aside. You have to want the
Speaker 1: change for yourself. You have to want the respect for yourself.
Speaker 1: You have to you have to want all that for yourself.
Speaker 1: And over the past several years I said those words
Speaker 1: out loud, but I didn't necessarily believe him. Where I
Speaker 1: was motivated internally more by doing something to try to
Speaker 1: show you and put on a show or aracade to
Speaker 1: be like CEC like I'm doing this, I'm doing this,
Speaker 1: when really I was just punching the clock, going to
Speaker 1: a meeting, punching my time card. Yeah I went to
Speaker 1: a meeting this week. Call my sponsor. Yeah I call
Speaker 1: my sponsor this week, you know, doing whatever else to
Speaker 1: change as a husband, as a man, whatever, and just
Speaker 1: being like, yeah, I'm doing this to show that I'm
Speaker 1: doing something different, when again, in reality, I'm not doing
Speaker 1: anything life changing. I'm feeling the same way about myself.
Speaker 1: I'm not respecting myself anymore, I'm not loving myself anymore
Speaker 1: because I'm really not doing anything different. And I said
Speaker 1: this to you just not long ago. It's the most
Speaker 1: cliche thing we've all heard, and it's never been more
Speaker 1: true for me than it is now. And that's you
Speaker 1: can't truly love someone else until you love yourself. I've
Speaker 1: never really understood that. I've never really got it until now.
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, that's true. That's true. Because
Speaker 1: if I can't even respect myself and be honest with
Speaker 1: myself because I justify everything, how the hell did I
Speaker 1: expect myself to to do that to you? How can
Speaker 1: I respect you if I don't respect myself? How can
Speaker 1: I be honest to you? If I'm not honest to myself.
Speaker 1: You can't. If you can't do it to yourself, then
Speaker 1: who the hell can you do it too? Can't give
Speaker 1: someone something you don't have and you don't give yourself.
Speaker 1: So and that again, that goes for that's not just
Speaker 1: addiction recovery aspect. That's for you know, relational and even
Speaker 1: if you're not in a relationship, for yourself, so do
Speaker 1: something different. So for me, that's I'm doing things I've
Speaker 1: never done before. And it's funny that we're it's starting
Speaker 1: to become a habit where I look forward to it.
Speaker 1: I look forward to that time I make every morning,
Speaker 1: and it is about making the time. This is probably
Speaker 1: one of the first times I'm making not just taking
Speaker 1: time out of my day. I'm making time out of
Speaker 1: my day by waking up earlier to do things. And
Speaker 1: it for once, it doesn't feel like a chore because
Speaker 1: I'm not just doing it to appease you. I'm doing
Speaker 1: it because I'm actually gaining something out of it, and
Speaker 1: I feel more self respect for myself because I'm actually
Speaker 1: being honest and following through with it. So it's those
Speaker 1: kind of things where like you said, I've said everything before,
Speaker 1: I've done it all before. For the most part, it's
Speaker 1: like what else, what do you have to hold onto?
Speaker 1: And I was like, I have said everything before. There's
Speaker 1: only one place else to look, and that's inside of me.
Speaker 1: And it's like, what do I need to do to
Speaker 1: change for me? Because everything I've tried to do to
Speaker 1: change for you hasn't worked. It's just the same pattern
Speaker 1: because every time I just try to change for you
Speaker 1: and salvage and rescue the situation, and some time passes
Speaker 1: and then we just kind of fall back into the
Speaker 1: same thing and look where that's gotten us, you know.
Speaker 1: So I think that's the biggest thing for me, whether
Speaker 1: male or female, is do it for you, do it
Speaker 1: for you. And that leads into the exact situation with
Speaker 1: for the I don't ever want to say the victim
Speaker 1: because that sounds but for the Okay, the person who's hurt, well,
Speaker 1: you're hurt too, the person who got hurt, you got
Speaker 1: hurt too. Yeah, because of my actions, I just yeah,
Speaker 1: um is. I remember sitting in therapy with my therapist Amy,
Speaker 1: who I just adore so much, and you know, this
Speaker 1: is a couple of weeks ago, and I'm just you know,
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, how do I, how do I? How
Speaker 1: do I trust him again? How do we you know,
Speaker 1: how do I do this? Or how do I? What
Speaker 1: do I do? And how does you know? He has
Speaker 1: just kept saying you and she's like, you're so focused
Speaker 1: on She's like, you have to do your work. She's like,
Speaker 1: which we're doing. She's like, but you always She's like,
Speaker 1: you're always trying to figure out how to be better
Speaker 1: for him, or how to how to trust him or too.
Speaker 1: It's like you're so your world is so involved with
Speaker 1: him that you're forgetting the pieces that you need to
Speaker 1: work on and you need to to love and and
Speaker 1: nurture and to understand why you're looking for these certain things.
Speaker 1: You know, why you're looking for safety and why you're
Speaker 1: looking for trust, and like why you're repeating or what? Also,
Speaker 1: what are you staying for? What are you you know?
Speaker 1: But it's it's not it's not about you, because she's like,
Speaker 1: that's just like, then we do we do a couple
Speaker 1: of sessions. She's like, well, right now we have to
Speaker 1: figure out what what are your emotions and what you're
Speaker 1: feeling and not it's not about him? And that was
Speaker 1: such a I was like, oh, okay, well that's scary.
Speaker 1: I don't want to look at me right now. Like
Speaker 1: it's easier to just be like, well, how can I
Speaker 1: trust him? And well I have to go inside and
Speaker 1: figure out what parts of me am I not? You know,
Speaker 1: why don't I trust? And why do I feel the
Speaker 1: need for safety so bad? And that's when you start,
Speaker 1: you know, going in your child at traumas, which you
Speaker 1: know I have done time and time again. But every
Speaker 1: time you go back to your childhood traumas, you realize
Speaker 1: more things than with our relationship and what we've learned
Speaker 1: kind of in our intensive is you know, I'm looking
Speaker 1: for safety or looking for autonomy, rest and respect. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and I'm looking for safety and connection. And it's
Speaker 1: like when we sit there and we bring in our
Speaker 1: childhood self and then we talked about our fights like well, no,
Speaker 1: wonder why like the dance that we're doing. But now
Speaker 1: I can look at and be like, Okay, this is
Speaker 1: what he's needing in this moment. How can I now
Speaker 1: help him in this moment? But also I'll just go
Speaker 1: back to like the personal recovery is just again realizing
Speaker 1: what you're worth is and you know, for a long
Speaker 1: time and this has been something that's been real hard
Speaker 1: to deal with. Is I always thought that I deserved Um,
Speaker 1: I thought that I deserved the abuse. For my first husband,
Speaker 1: I thought that I deserved his Really, you know that
Speaker 1: it was my fault that he relapsed. It was my
Speaker 1: fault that he had you know, that was it was
Speaker 1: my fault. And I have put all this pressure and
Speaker 1: weight and ugliness and just darkness on myself, which comes
Speaker 1: out in ugly ways. It comes out, and anger towards
Speaker 1: you comes out, in being hurtful, It comes out and shameful.
Speaker 1: It comes out in me repeating the haven't don't you
Speaker 1: see my lad? It's like it comes out and such,
Speaker 1: But all I'm looking for is just that safety m
Speaker 1: h and not it's exhausting. I have something to say
Speaker 1: on that I think might help the listeners. Let's take
Speaker 1: a break real quick. I'm gonna come back to that,
Speaker 1: all right. So I had something I wanted to bring
Speaker 1: up before the break there based on what you said.
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that even though we're doing this
Speaker 1: work together and we're able to see each other's like
Speaker 1: behind the scenes feelings and stuff, I think that's not
Speaker 1: even where the main benefit is. It's like, the main
Speaker 1: benefit is for us to be able to identify our
Speaker 1: own feelings in the situation, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: So it's not even more. I think there's more power
Speaker 1: with you being able to be like, man, why am
Speaker 1: I feeling this way? What's coming up with me? Instead
Speaker 1: of me having to interpret Okay, what was it about
Speaker 1: our past? Again? Because yeah, we know each other stories
Speaker 1: very very well, but not as well as you know
Speaker 1: yours and I know mine because we physically feel those feelings.
Speaker 1: So to be able to be educated in for us
Speaker 1: as individuals to look back and be like, Okay, what
Speaker 1: is coming up for me? And to be able to
Speaker 1: express that to each other, that just sets us, sets
Speaker 1: us up for more success, to be able to articulate it,
Speaker 1: to articulate that to one another. Yes, also, it's so hard,
Speaker 1: so hard to be that vulnerable. I mean even earlier
Speaker 1: today when I wanted to express the feeling to it
Speaker 1: took me twenty minutes to get vulnerable because before I
Speaker 1: just wanted to say, aren't you gonna help with kids?
Speaker 1: You said you're gonna help with kids, you know, And
Speaker 1: that's what I wanted to say. But instead I felt
Speaker 1: the feeling and was like, what is this feeling? And
Speaker 1: I was like, you know, the Janna before would have
Speaker 1: done something passive or would have thrown it at you,
Speaker 1: or would have been like you said you were going
Speaker 1: to come up and help with kids, But was that
Speaker 1: more important? Clearly? Don't you know? You know? And just
Speaker 1: be And so I was just I felt it like
Speaker 1: in my chest, and that's when I came down here
Speaker 1: and I said, I I need to express a feeling
Speaker 1: and it just it's so raw and it's so vulnerable.
Speaker 1: But you were able to hear me. And that's the
Speaker 1: difference where when we cast passiveness or not respect like
Speaker 1: vice versa. Like both of us do that and we
Speaker 1: we don't hear the other person, but you were able
Speaker 1: to hear the other person when they sit here from
Speaker 1: a good place and they're like Bill and Laurie are
Speaker 1: are couples in tense of will set. You know, mad
Speaker 1: props to them because there if anyone has a chance
Speaker 1: to come to Nashville and doing intensive with them, Bill
Speaker 1: and uh Lorie Loke either absolutely incredible human beings, but
Speaker 1: they're not You're not only able in that process to
Speaker 1: see maybe what your spouse is little child needs, but
Speaker 1: also what you need or what you're feeling or like
Speaker 1: and how to how to be vulnerable and how to
Speaker 1: go there. And it's so I mean, there's so many
Speaker 1: times the last couple of days where we've sat in
Speaker 1: and it's just like we look at her and it's
Speaker 1: like it's so uncomfortable to be so vulnerable. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: it's cool because we get to see because it's a
Speaker 1: husband and wife that are doing this intensive together. You
Speaker 1: never feel it's even numbers, so you never feel ganged
Speaker 1: up on like that can happen in a couple of
Speaker 1: sessions when it's just one therapist, and we also get
Speaker 1: to see their couple ship in front of us where
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, I just interrupted, sorry, and they have
Speaker 1: their moments of like their own work in front of us,
Speaker 1: and it's really cool to see that even these professionals
Speaker 1: who do this stuff aren't perfect and that kind of
Speaker 1: brings us to you know, wrapping this episode up with
Speaker 1: you know, we share because we want to be able
Speaker 1: to help you know, people out there. We want people
Speaker 1: to not feel alone and to understand that they don't
Speaker 1: have to get it all right because clearly we don't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and just like you hear sometimes when it's like man,
Speaker 1: I don't feel like you respected Mike that episode or
Speaker 1: you were being it's like, yeah, I was. But also
Speaker 1: in a way take that as a learning tool to
Speaker 1: also see what I could have done differently and how
Speaker 1: you can grow. And also it's for me too, This
Speaker 1: is this podcast as a learning tool for me as
Speaker 1: an individual too, to be how could I have expressed
Speaker 1: that differently? How could I have said that differently? How
Speaker 1: can I be a better friend, How can I be
Speaker 1: a better wife? How can I be a better mom. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're learning, and we will still make mistakes and there
Speaker 1: will still be hurt but I pray together there's no
Speaker 1: more harm Well said. Honey Well said, but we're we
Speaker 1: learn as much if not more from when we do this,
Speaker 1: and maybe hopefully anyone out there is because we're going
Speaker 1: through this and like jan said, we're not perfect. Were
Speaker 1: trying to figure this out too. I just would like
Speaker 1: to say too that we do appreciate um y'all for
Speaker 1: letting a share and for being there and for not judging.
Speaker 1: And that's that's the hugest part, because we're we're putting
Speaker 1: ourselves out there in a very vulnerable way to be
Speaker 1: picked upon, picked apart, and made to be criticized. Like
Speaker 1: our story is a very criticized She's dumb, He's this,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's it's a very criticized piece where
Speaker 1: it can be hurtful sometimes, but we know what can
Speaker 1: be harmful and we know what for us at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, we want to be able to
Speaker 1: continue to say, you know what, who listens to this
Speaker 1: podcast with people that know our hearts and that know
Speaker 1: that we're doing this for the right reasons. And also
Speaker 1: we're wanting to be authentic because we don't know the
Speaker 1: answers and we're not trying to we don't not trying
Speaker 1: to be perfect because we don't know how to be
Speaker 1: and who knows how to be perfect? But if we
Speaker 1: can help someone along the way try to navigate their struggles,
Speaker 1: then we're here for you, and we hear you and
Speaker 1: we see you, and we love help along the way too,
Speaker 1: because we're not above any of it and we're right
Speaker 1: there with you, all here you. I'm tired. I'm tired too,
Speaker 1: and I just want to say thank you, honey for
Speaker 1: holding it down. And I am so excited to be back.
Speaker 1: I feel very fortunate to be back, and definitely don't
Speaker 1: take you for granted. Thank you. I appreciate that. And
Speaker 1: it's so hard, no I I I'm going in. Something
Speaker 1: that maybe we can touch on the next episode is
Speaker 1: how we're gonna move and create a new marriage. And
Speaker 1: I just would encourage you guys to listen to Estra
Speaker 1: Parrel and her Ted talks about the new marriage because
Speaker 1: that's what I kind of want to touch on next
Speaker 1: week and I'd like that for us, so that way, Yeah,
Speaker 1: the pain can still be there, but it's not. It's
Speaker 1: we want a different marriage and I would like to
Speaker 1: marry and start fresh, you know, so deep breath everyone.
Speaker 1: We'll see you next week, will you know? Okay, I
Speaker 1: guys stand in in anute.