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Speaker 1: Wind down and Michael and podcast spoiler alert. Oh, welcome

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Speaker 1: back to the show. My Mom January is over. I

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Speaker 1: gotta ask you a question. Did you listen to any

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Speaker 1: of the Mom January? I haven't yet have that. No,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to I think it was I missed it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it was it was hard. It's like it was

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Speaker 1: kind of like when you know, I first got out

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Speaker 1: of football. I couldn't watch football that first season because

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Speaker 1: I wasn't a part of the team anymore. So it

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Speaker 1: was like, uh, I'm not ready to listen yet. You're

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Speaker 1: always a part of the team. Yeah, but I was

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Speaker 1: kind of exile. You were not exibbed, although we were

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Speaker 1: side commenting being like, you know, someone saved Mike. Where's

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Speaker 1: throughout the raft and Mike, Um, No, it's just you know,

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Speaker 1: we had it one episode. I think the first one

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Speaker 1: was with Sean. I believe it was with Sean and

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Speaker 1: Kristen and Catherine, and the reaction to the moms were

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Speaker 1: just like, we want another one. So I figured where

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Speaker 1: we were at, it would be a good opportunity to

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Speaker 1: you know what, what can we turn this into? Because

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm always trying to trying to be like Okay,

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Speaker 1: what like, what can we do with with where we're

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Speaker 1: at and like, you know, the podcast, and to make

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Speaker 1: it something where it's still feels authentic and still feels

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Speaker 1: real and um, you know, not fake or not any lies.

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Speaker 1: So it's like mom January and someone just came up

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Speaker 1: with mom Uary and I'm like, shoot, I gotta used

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Speaker 1: that in January. So maybe next Momuary we'll do it again.

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Speaker 1: But then you can come on and be the the dad,

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Speaker 1: the voice for the husband, the voice for the husbands.

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Speaker 1: Mark came in clutch a few times, but it's uncle

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Speaker 1: Mark of courtunated. But no, I mean, I know Easton

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Speaker 1: missed you. You know, It's funny. When I was uh unavailable,

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Speaker 1: I texted Easton. I texted him a pictures. It was

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Speaker 1: I was up in the media room and I was

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Speaker 1: building that millennium falcon, Lego said, And that's when I said, hey,

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Speaker 1: do you guys wanna where Mike's been building the up?

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Speaker 1: And I sent it to Easton. I was like, well,

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Speaker 1: I guess being an exilely too bad. Now, Okay, I

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Speaker 1: mean I feel like we should address that elephant in

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Speaker 1: the room because I don't want the listeners to think

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Speaker 1: that I just kicked you off the podcast or that

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Speaker 1: it was just like because that's that's not the case

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Speaker 1: at all, and all right, all joking aside, real talk time,

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Speaker 1: serious wine down time. The thing is, you know, Jane

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Speaker 1: and I are very honest, very vulnerable on this podcast.

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Speaker 1: That's part of why all of you listen, which we

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Speaker 1: greatly appreciate. The fact of the matter is we are

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Speaker 1: still two people with real life problems, and we still

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Speaker 1: reserve our right to privacy to a certain extent, and

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Speaker 1: it's our choice to come out and share a lot

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Speaker 1: of this with you. We learned the hard way when

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Speaker 1: we came out and try to have that show after

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Speaker 1: the whole picture deleting incident, and we realized after that,

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Speaker 1: we learned a lot that you know, we can't share

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Speaker 1: open wounds. They have to be scars and has to

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Speaker 1: be something we process first together. And so this past month,

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Speaker 1: you know, we still have growing to do in our

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Speaker 1: relationship um together and both individually and for me, it's uh,

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Speaker 1: it was really a time with things that went on

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Speaker 1: with us to really dig into and and face face

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Speaker 1: the facts of things that can be doing better in

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Speaker 1: my own recovery and growing as a person. And growing

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Speaker 1: as a husband. Um, so we're really kind of like

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Speaker 1: Janna said, she she was able to buy buy me

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Speaker 1: some more time to do that, which I which I appreciate. UM,

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Speaker 1: And I was very you know, understanding supportive of her.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I did an individual intensive um over

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Speaker 1: a long weekend and did a lot of work on myself.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, Jane and I are in the myths

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Speaker 1: of doing a couple is intensive right now and doing work, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, with each other. But it's, uh, it's something

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Speaker 1: that we're gonna we're gonna dive into at her at

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Speaker 1: a later time, right, honey. Well, if I'm if I'm

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Speaker 1: listener and if I'm Mark, you know, they're always like

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Speaker 1: why dance around it? And um, if you're going to

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Speaker 1: be honest, be honest. And I feel like and I

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Speaker 1: get that piece and I understand what you're saying to

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Speaker 1: you know, the actual specifics is something where you know,

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Speaker 1: we've been we've been journaling and writing stories. Our story

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Speaker 1: that sounds so crazy on paper, you know, and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't make sense. Since I was reading it, I was like, wow,

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Speaker 1: I like this is crazy. But we've also been able

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Speaker 1: to write down the resolve of how we were able

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Speaker 1: to resolve that certain issue. And you know, with this incident,

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Speaker 1: are we ready to share it? No? But will we yes?

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Speaker 1: And whether that's us putting something out there later. Right now,

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Speaker 1: it just feels like what we learned from that incident.

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Speaker 1: And I think what it's hard to is because you know,

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Speaker 1: everyone's just looking for like the next headline. And what

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Speaker 1: hurts us is, like Mike said, we're two people were

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Speaker 1: trying to share. We are sharing, We're being vulnerable with you.

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Speaker 1: But when someone gets it wrong, you know, for example,

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Speaker 1: you know they have they will have put Mike relapsed.

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Speaker 1: Well that's to someone. They're gonna think, Okay, he relapsed

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Speaker 1: with another person, or he relapsed. You know, they're going

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Speaker 1: to come up with something that is harmful for not

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Speaker 1: only us, but harmful to what we're building and harmful

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Speaker 1: to the message that we're like no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: like they're just reading, oh no, he relapsed again. I

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Speaker 1: remember reading that, thinking but he didn't. He didn't. He

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Speaker 1: didn't physically cheat. It within me like he yes, he

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Speaker 1: with he might have broken a boundary, but that isn't

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Speaker 1: he didn't. So I'm like still hurt, but yet still

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Speaker 1: trying to defend him at the same time, and it

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Speaker 1: becomes this massive conflict where it's that we want to share,

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Speaker 1: but then we get afraid of what they're gonna misread

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Speaker 1: and that and you know, what we know is and

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Speaker 1: I think you can attest to this is what you

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Speaker 1: know is the last out when you were so um

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Speaker 1: when the last year and a half, since the one

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Speaker 1: relapse that was a potential like you were, You've came

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Speaker 1: out with that that you almost acted on it, that

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Speaker 1: was that was a relapse, but you didn't act on it.

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Speaker 1: But since then you've come to realize that you haven't

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Speaker 1: been truly working your program. Yeah. And in something I've've

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Speaker 1: kind of discovered in my own work this past month

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Speaker 1: and that I've kind of had discussions with Jana about,

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Speaker 1: is you know, there's a big difference between Live being

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Speaker 1: a not acting out program or not drinking programmer, or

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Speaker 1: not using drugs program versus a life changing program. And

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Speaker 1: I had to get real with myself and I had

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Speaker 1: to realize, I'm like, there's a lot of things in

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Speaker 1: my life that I'm not doing different, and it just

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Speaker 1: feels like at times I'm going through the motion and

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Speaker 1: but when I'm regardless, even if I'm not relapsing or

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Speaker 1: acting out or stepping outside of our marriage, if I'm

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Speaker 1: still breaking boundaries, we're not being completely honest with things

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Speaker 1: like that picture stuff and other things. It's like, how

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Speaker 1: is that sober? How is that life changing? How is

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Speaker 1: that living with integrity? It's not, And so it just

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Speaker 1: you know, we needed time to again grow individually, grow

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Speaker 1: as a couple, and like Janna said, we're not trying

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Speaker 1: to dance around anything or withhold it from our listeners.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the reality is there was a boundary that

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Speaker 1: was broken, but that was harmful for me because it

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Speaker 1: was a discovery. But again, it wasn't a physical acting out.

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Speaker 1: So that's why I'm very careful, and because I do

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Speaker 1: want to protect you as well, because I don't want

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Speaker 1: people to think that it was a physical relapse. But

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Speaker 1: it was also it was such a big discovery with

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Speaker 1: a boundary that it was harmful to me in our relationship,

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Speaker 1: which made you then realize, oh my god, I've been

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Speaker 1: living in this lies of justifications, and I mean, you

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Speaker 1: can speak more on that. So the people the females

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Speaker 1: are listeners can maybe understand their husbands or their partners

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Speaker 1: a little bit more, but where they're living in that

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Speaker 1: they think that because they're not acting out, it's okay

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Speaker 1: to do a B and C, when in all actuality,

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Speaker 1: that's if that partner finds out and that's a boundary,

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Speaker 1: it's going to affect them, and it's it is that

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Speaker 1: justification where you know, sometimes at least for myself, I

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Speaker 1: can't speak for everyone, but it is we try to

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Speaker 1: make it or I try to make it black and

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Speaker 1: white where it's like, hey, I'm not acting out. I'm

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Speaker 1: not you know, physically looking at anything, physically looking at

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Speaker 1: anything inappropriate. I'm not you know, acting it's out of marriage,

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Speaker 1: I'm not whatever it is, I'm not doing that. So

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Speaker 1: what I'm doing is okay. And it's like that justification

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Speaker 1: where that's my defense and it's taking some time for

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Speaker 1: me to realize, like, oh wait, this is still triggering

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Speaker 1: you in ways that didn't realize. And there's also that

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Speaker 1: piece where it's still a lie and still the justification

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Speaker 1: is a lie with what you're telling our relationship. So

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Speaker 1: that piece is still when I ask you, hey, any

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Speaker 1: secrets are lies that can be that is a secret

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Speaker 1: and a lie, but you've justified it as not being one,

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Speaker 1: and that's harmful when someone discovers it and it's like,

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Speaker 1: but wait, I thought, but I can. I can totally

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Speaker 1: see on your side where you think where you can

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Speaker 1: think that. But I think now you've also seen the

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Speaker 1: opposite effect too of what that discovery and what that

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Speaker 1: lie does, because I've always said, it's not about the act,

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Speaker 1: it's about the lie, it's about the discovery. It's about

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Speaker 1: because that brings me back to day one of the

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Speaker 1: discovery for sure. So yeah, to bring it full circle,

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Speaker 1: it's we're not trying to dance around it. We're just

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Speaker 1: trying to reserve the right to us details right now

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Speaker 1: for our own privacy, because we've seen how when tabloids

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Speaker 1: or publications listen to this and they take things and

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Speaker 1: run with it, it is harmful for our relationship when

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Speaker 1: they get it wrong. And then next thing, you know,

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Speaker 1: I have to see shameful things in the news. Janna

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Speaker 1: has to see comments that are degrading or judgmental, and

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Speaker 1: that that takes a toll on you. I don't care

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Speaker 1: who you are, and as much as we don't let

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Speaker 1: it affect us, after a while, it does, especially when

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Speaker 1: you leave live and share this openly and vulnerably vulnerably

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Speaker 1: that we do. And again hopefully we'll be able to

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Speaker 1: come out with you know, our stories and then we

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Speaker 1: will certain things like hey, this happened. Uh yeah, um no,

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Speaker 1: but where it's like this happened and this is how

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Speaker 1: we dealt with it. And I think you know bottom

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Speaker 1: line was you know, was a boundary broken? Yes? Was

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Speaker 1: it harmful for me? Yes? Because of now was it

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Speaker 1: out of marriage? Did he relapse? No? But I mean

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Speaker 1: you can speak on it like you've re Yeah, every

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Speaker 1: set my time, because that was what I needed to

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Speaker 1: I would have felt like I was still justifying if

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Speaker 1: I didn't, like I'll still I would still be excusing

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Speaker 1: behavior that really wasn't different from what I was doing. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't acting out, but still, how is that? How

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Speaker 1: is that any change? You know? How is that showing

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Speaker 1: you anything and showing myself anything? So I know the

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Speaker 1: answer because we've danced around this the past month with

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Speaker 1: the therapy and you know, been on my knees trying

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Speaker 1: to understand it, and um, for everyone that's listening and

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Speaker 1: that it's kind of in this has been in the

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Speaker 1: same situation. How well, why why do you justify What

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Speaker 1: makes you justify um when you know that it could

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Speaker 1: be hurtful or harmful and it's and then it's a

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Speaker 1: boundary that you know that I said I wouldn't do this,

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Speaker 1: but uh so what to help the other ladies out

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Speaker 1: there understand because I know now, because you know, but

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Speaker 1: it might be helpful for other people to hear that, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's uh it's it's. It is a difficult thing to explain.

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Speaker 1: But from the work we've done, the work I've done,

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Speaker 1: what it's come down to for me is it really

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Speaker 1: it's a selfish thought. First of all, it's self preservation

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Speaker 1: and it's really entitlement to Yeah, it's it's pride, an

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Speaker 1: entitlement because it's really hard to sit in the pain

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Speaker 1: and the consequences of our actions, it really is. And

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Speaker 1: as a man two sit in the in that pain

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Speaker 1: and that shame of what you've done and what you've

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Speaker 1: done to somebody that you love. How do you think

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Speaker 1: of yourself if as a man, you know, if if

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Speaker 1: you're not living with integrity and the way a good

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Speaker 1: man and good husband should. So, how do we regain that?

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Speaker 1: It's by trying to puff out our chest, plan our

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Speaker 1: flag on the mountain with pride, an ego and entitlement

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Speaker 1: and incomes justification for doing things that we know rationally

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Speaker 1: probably shouldn't be doing. It can be harmful. Um. And

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Speaker 1: that's just that's just been real, honestly, And that's what

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Speaker 1: comes down to you for me when you're in that

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Speaker 1: place and you know I know that. Again. We danced

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Speaker 1: on this a lot the last month and I said

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Speaker 1: it every night we've done a check in and he said,

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Speaker 1: no lies, no secrets. How do you justify that's not

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Speaker 1: a line, that's not a secret. Please know that I'm

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Speaker 1: not like I'm beating you up right now, just for

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Speaker 1: sure feel like we're in a good space. No, we're

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Speaker 1: in a great space. It's a it comes down to

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Speaker 1: looking at it black and white, you know what I mean,

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Speaker 1: where it's just like it's not a line of secret

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Speaker 1: because I'm not really acting now. I'm not doing the

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Speaker 1: big things that the tabloids say that, you know what

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Speaker 1: I mean that the real major big things that everyone

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Speaker 1: assumes is the issue. Um. And so it is it's

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Speaker 1: just that rational rationalization justification that I'm a man, I

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Speaker 1: can I can do this. It's not I'm not doing

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Speaker 1: the big thing. I'm not taking a drink, mh. I'm

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Speaker 1: just doing something different that you know, and that's where

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Speaker 1: you know kind of Over the last month we talked

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Speaker 1: about where I think for the first time, I've realized

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Speaker 1: and accepted that boundaries that we have in our relationship

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Speaker 1: aren't about controlling me. It is about your safety. And

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Speaker 1: even if I said that in the past, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if, like in my core, I felt that or

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Speaker 1: believed it because I didn't think I had a choice.

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Speaker 1: I just thought I had to do what you need

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Speaker 1: and what you said because that's what you said you needed,

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Speaker 1: and I just is it not what your program And

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Speaker 1: that's and but that's the ship, right, that's the difference

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Speaker 1: between me then and me now realizing that that's not

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Speaker 1: just for your safety, that's for my safety. You know

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Speaker 1: that at I need that too to to be where

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Speaker 1: I want to be and go where I want to

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Speaker 1: go and be who I am. So it's a but

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Speaker 1: it's tough for any man to too. I don't think

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Speaker 1: there are many men out there that, when in these

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Speaker 1: kind of situations, when boundaries come up, that were like,

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Speaker 1: all right, sounds great, and just live within the boundaries

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Speaker 1: with no kind of feeling internally there's gonna be that

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Speaker 1: eventual pushback by majority of men. Is it because you

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Speaker 1: put us in that role of you can't do this

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Speaker 1: like the dictator? Yeah? And it's hard because even though

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Speaker 1: our actions are what created that dynamic, h, we still

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Speaker 1: want to blame you. It's so interesting and it's messed up.

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Speaker 1: It is, you know, it's just like, uh, what what?

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Speaker 1: I think it's the immaturity of men um where it's

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Speaker 1: just like a kid, right, like most kids are high

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Speaker 1: schoolers are immature. So when our parents disciplined us as

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Speaker 1: high schoolers or as kids, even though our actions are

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Speaker 1: there are what our discipline has got us in this situation,

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Speaker 1: we still say that's not fair. It's so unfair. Why

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Speaker 1: would you do that? Well, it's because you did something

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Speaker 1: we asked you not to do, so I think that's

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Speaker 1: that's what comes up for us. It's like the child

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Speaker 1: inside of us and men I think just a naturally

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Speaker 1: more immature, right than than women, especially emotionally more immature

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Speaker 1: than women. So it's like that little boy inside of

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Speaker 1: us that's like, that's not fair. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: don't ground me, you know, I want to play Mario brothers.

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Speaker 1: So it's it is part of that. And and so

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Speaker 1: finally feeling like I can be in a place to accept,

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Speaker 1: truly accept responsibilities for my actions but not just think

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Speaker 1: of think of them as the responsibility consequences of my actions,

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Speaker 1: but also realizing that it's for safety for both of us,

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Speaker 1: and boundaries are something that we agree upon. Okay, I

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Speaker 1: am are you okay? I see your eyes a little bit.

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Speaker 1: It's just been a really heavy month. Yeah, And the

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Speaker 1: heaviness isn't um sorry, um, it's a it's a heaviness,

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Speaker 1: but it's also like a gratefulness that like we can

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Speaker 1: still be sitting here conversating um. But it's also that

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Speaker 1: fear too. I think that's the been the hardest part

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Speaker 1: of this month, is you know, we've both individually done

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Speaker 1: a lot of work and then we've done obviously you

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Speaker 1: were now intensive from nine am to five pm today,

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Speaker 1: So it's just like just a lot of work, and

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Speaker 1: so it just feels I feels so heavy, um. But

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Speaker 1: it also feels um, you know, I feel and I

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Speaker 1: never m I think I've always been afraid to use

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Speaker 1: this word, but I do feel hopeful for like the

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Speaker 1: tools that we've been learning. Um, but it's also very scary,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I feel like I have some ownership

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Speaker 1: and you know feeling. You know, I've read back on

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Speaker 1: comments about this and they're like, you know, you don't

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Speaker 1: seem like you respect your husband or you talk down

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Speaker 1: to him, and you know, there's ownership that I can

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Speaker 1: take in that, because I've had a hard time respecting

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Speaker 1: you at times because of the constant betrayals and that's

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Speaker 1: but I's so so it's so hard, and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I want to take an accountability for it, but yet

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Speaker 1: then it's so hard because I'm so afraid to be hurt.

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Speaker 1: So it's easier to just shell up and just and

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Speaker 1: to be nasty or too that makes sense. It's easier,

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Speaker 1: it's easier to be angry. It's easier. It's more fun

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Speaker 1: to be angry. No, it's not fun. Um, it's easier,

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Speaker 1: but it is. I guess I'm I guess I'm looking

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Speaker 1: right now for empathy. Yeah, in this moment right now,

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Speaker 1: with like and the people that have had in the

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Speaker 1: same situation, maybe I can speak on the wives and say,

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Speaker 1: because of the constant lies, can you see how it

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Speaker 1: might be hard to lean into you and to and

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Speaker 1: to trust your word. Yeah. Absolutely, and I want you

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Speaker 1: to know that right now. First of all, I appreciate

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00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 1: I appreciate your vulnerability, and like I hear you and

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Speaker 1: I see you right now, and I feel I feel

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Speaker 1: your pain. I can't imagine how hard it is to

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Speaker 1: lean into somebody who's hurt you so much. That is

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Speaker 1: terrifying and I'll never know exactly how that feels because

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Speaker 1: you haven't done that to me, And so I have

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Speaker 1: so much respect for you. I have so much love

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Speaker 1: for you and your willingness two to do work in

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Speaker 1: our relationship, to even to be even to be able

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Speaker 1: to even say that you're hopeful and willing to take

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Speaker 1: ownership and look at yourself for a fraction of it.

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Speaker 1: But I can totally get how hard that must be

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Speaker 1: when you're like, well, look, dickhead, you should stop doing that.

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Speaker 1: It won't be so mean, you know, mm hmm um.

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Speaker 1: I'm devastated by that, and I'm really sorry that I've

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00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 1: made it so difficult because I see you trying, I

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00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 1: really do, and I see why you or the way

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Speaker 1: you are at times because it's part of the environment

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00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: that I created, and I have to own that Yeah, mhm, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I appreciate that. It's it's Um, I want so bad

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Speaker 1: badly to move forward and to have that marriage that

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Speaker 1: we've always talked about and to see the man that

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00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: you say you're always going to be. And I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of other women can maybe relate to this

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Speaker 1: to where it's like they keep saying, I'm not going

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Speaker 1: to do that again, or I'll do better next time. UM.

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Speaker 1: A therapist that we're working with right now, she said,

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Speaker 1: I'll try is a lie. When someone says I'll try

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Speaker 1: to do better, that's a lie. I'll try means that's

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Speaker 1: that's that's a lie. Um. And so when that keeps happening,

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Speaker 1: then I feel like, so so when the betrayal and

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Speaker 1: the lies and the discoveries keep happening, it's becomes insanity

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Speaker 1: in my world. And then I start to feel insane.

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Speaker 1: I start to feel like and I think other women

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Speaker 1: out there feel like they're creating or they're repeating it. Um,

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00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 1: it's insanity repeating itself. Yeah, it's a groundhome day. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And it's like, but you say you're going to be

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Speaker 1: this other man, but then you're not doing it, and

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00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: then it makes us feel crazy and it makes us

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00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,200
Speaker 1: feel like we do we not deserve better? Do we

377
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: not deserve more? Do we not deserve to feel love?

378
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: Do we not deserve to be told the truth and

379
00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,479
Speaker 1: to be honest with So then it just tail spins

380
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: us and then I make up, and then I start

381
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 1: taking off pictures on Instagram because I'm tail spinning. My

382
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: my my younger child is like, I'm, I'm, I'm you know,

383
00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: I'm I'm. I start just spinning out of control. It's cold,

384
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 1: shut up, no, but I I just I feel like

385
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm not the only woman out there

386
00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: that's done that, but it's just it becomes so out

387
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: of control that when you and that you know me,

388
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 1: and I'm I'm already at my limit with discoveries and

389
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:12,479
Speaker 1: lies that I've I hit it and I was just

390
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:16,399
Speaker 1: like I pressed the button. I said, yes, this is

391
00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 1: where I'm now unraveling. And now I'm harmed again, and

392
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 1: now it's shame on me. So I'm gonna I'm gonna

393
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 1: wall up. And it's just and what I've learned with

394
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 1: my therapist now that I feel like I can maybe

395
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: give back to some of the women or men out

396
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: there that I've got are going through similar situations, is

397
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 1: you know what's hurt hurt versus harm Because a lot

398
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: of times with people that have been in trauma relationships

399
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: or um traumatic relationships is for me, where I go

400
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: is I'm like, oh my god, I can't do this.

401
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: I I like, you know, there you are again showing

402
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,479
Speaker 1: your cards. I'm I'm out, I want a divorce, like

403
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: I can't do this. But really what I'm wanting is

404
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: safety and to feel loved and to feel security, and

405
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: to want to feel like he chooses me and that

406
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 1: I'm good enough to be told the truth. But what

407
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 1: happens is whether it's a hurt or harm, I go

408
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: straight to the the I can't do this, Oh my god.

409
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 1: And so what I've had to discover and therapy is, Okay,

410
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 1: what is hurtful verse harmful? What? Because I know you're

411
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: going to hurt me again. I know that we were

412
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:36,160
Speaker 1: going to have arguments that are going to hurt, and

413
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: we're going to say things and it's not going to

414
00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 1: be perfect. I know. But I can't go down the

415
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: line of oh my god, I can't do this anymore

416
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: because that's just that's a cycle that we both It's

417
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: not fair for you. It's not fair for me. It's

418
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:48,920
Speaker 1: not fair for anyone. It's not fair for my friends

419
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 1: that call. They're like, oh Jesus, your thirtieth time, and

420
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 1: he said you're done. So it becomes this like run

421
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: on and so it's like, okay, I wrote down a

422
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,680
Speaker 1: list of for me in this might be something that

423
00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: can be helpful for the listeners to. I wrote down

424
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,960
Speaker 1: a list of what's hurtful and what's harmful. What's something

425
00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: where I physically cannot hold anymore. I physically cannot handle

426
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: if he lies about this or I discover this, or

427
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: this happens versus. You know, he was mean and said

428
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: something mean to me. Am I going to go to

429
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 1: I can't do this anymore, you know, But my first

430
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: reaction is always to go to that I can't do

431
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: this anymore. You haven't and sorry, real fast. I just

432
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: want to get this piece because I think a lot

433
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: of people can wait to this do. I go to,

434
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: you don't know what you've done, you don't know how

435
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: bad you've hurt me. You have no empathy for what

436
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: I've gone through, and you don't feel my pain. And

437
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 1: I start then repeating the trauma and he's like, you know,

438
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 1: he and he's like, you've already said that a million times,

439
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: But I keep repeating and repeating and repeating it because

440
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: I don't feel the empathy and I don't feel that

441
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: he truly understands it. So that's why I keep repeating

442
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: it a million times, because I'm like, listen to me,

443
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 1: hear me. I'm my five year old self right now.

444
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: I need you to freaking hold me. I need you

445
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 1: to tell me that you love me and that you're

446
00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,720
Speaker 1: here from me and that you won't leave me, and

447
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: then I'm worth it, and then I deserve it. Mhm.

448
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: So I think finding and that's the piece. Like the

449
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: other day, we got into an argument, you know, just

450
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: as silly poke back, poke back kind of argument, and

451
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 1: in my past I would have said, oh my god, sir,

452
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: you're not changing. I don't want to do this, I'm

453
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,479
Speaker 1: over it, and instead I was just like okay, Like

454
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: I I was like, this is just a hurt, and

455
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: we're going to figure this out from from the hurt place,

456
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: not from the harm place, because the harm place. You

457
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: now know how serious I am with what's going to

458
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: happen in the hard place. Okay, So now that we

459
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: have very clear boundaries of what is And I don't

460
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 1: say that from I know that sounded probably like from

461
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: a uh finger pointing, but you know, and from a

462
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: very like soft place. And you know what is harmful

463
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: for to me? That And it's not even in acting out, Yeah,

464
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: it's not even there's something on that harmful list that

465
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 1: doesn't involve him acting out with another female, but it's

466
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: something that's so harmful for me, Like, for example, I'll

467
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 1: tell you one a discovery. If I find a different

468
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: discovery that involves a lie, I that is harmful for

469
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: me and I physically cannot hold it anymore. And you've

470
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: seen what happens when I when it does happen, and

471
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,080
Speaker 1: in the repeatedness of it, it's just and I think

472
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: it's truly you've you've saw the past of mind because

473
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: this has been the longest that we've been at odds,

474
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: and I think you've really saw the Okay, wow, this

475
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: is what happens for you when you discover X, Y,

476
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: and Z and what that lie does to you. And

477
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: you know, our therapist in Los Angeles and you're scraping

478
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: him with the other day, he's like, most marriages don't

479
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: end because of them cheating on their spouse. It ends

480
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: because they lied to them. It ends because the other

481
00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 1: spouse discovered something, and that's what ends the marriage. And

482
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: for and for the guy or for the person in

483
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 1: my shoes in the relationship, we're like, Okay, yeah, we

484
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: hear that, but we don't really believe it. Like I'm

485
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: not cheating on you, I'm not sleeping with anybody else.

486
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: It's not the same thing. It's not the same thing.

487
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,480
Speaker 1: You're that's bullsh You're not gonna, you know, be me

488
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: because I just didn't tell you the exact truth or whatever.

489
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 1: But no, they will. But why, like I mean, joking aside,

490
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: joking aside, it's it's because it is so triggering because

491
00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: chances are people in our situation, the affair or the infidelity,

492
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: it's most likely discovered. Very seldom are the cases that

493
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 1: someone was honest and brought it to him, which kudos

494
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:16,959
Speaker 1: to you, but usually they are discovered. So it's not

495
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 1: what they discovered is that act of discovering. So for Janna,

496
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: when she has to has to discover something, it brings

497
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: her right back to the beginning when initial discovery happened,

498
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 1: and that is that is the trauma, especially if the

499
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,840
Speaker 1: lie was attached to it. That is the trauma in

500
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: in in her life that I created because of my actions.

501
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 1: And that's something, like Janna said, I clearly feel and

502
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: understand in a way that I haven't before. Can I ask,

503
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: just for the women are men, it took you to

504
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: understand it now? Like what maybe why didn't you see

505
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: the pain before? Why didn't you see it when you

506
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: were in treatment? Or why didn't So I'm just like what,

507
00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: Like again, I know the answer, but I'm just what

508
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:16,640
Speaker 1: is it that? Why does it take certain relapses, are

509
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:21,360
Speaker 1: certain falls or certain and I think it's something something

510
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: interesting you said to me too. I don't know if

511
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: you want touch him, but you said I knew you

512
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 1: wouldn't have left for the other times, So I don't

513
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: know if you want touch on that too. Let's take

514
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: a break and then I'll fill everybody in Welcome back, Mike.

515
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: So before the break, Janna asked, basically what was the

516
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,600
Speaker 1: missing empathy piece? Like why is it taken this long

517
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: for me to really see your pain? I think because

518
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: I think that was when we went through our incident

519
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 1: before the New year, it was just and it's like

520
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 1: you saw the pain then but it's like, well, what

521
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 1: took you? Like? What what about all the other times

522
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: that you saw me in pain like that piece? It's

523
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: like you know, and for women out there that feel

524
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: the same way, where it's like a r will they

525
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 1: ever feel the empathy and then be what what was

526
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 1: it that took you to that piece? Um? It's just

527
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: like in a lot of things in life or addiction

528
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 1: or anything, it's you know, you don't really know that

529
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: you hit bottom until you're there. And even when you

530
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 1: think you hit bottom, you hit another bottom, and you

531
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 1: think you hit bottom, you hit another bottom. Um, And

532
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: I think too is and I'm not I don't want this.

533
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to make this a trend on this

534
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: episode about speaking about men in general. But empathy doesn't

535
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 1: come as natural maybe two men. And so I think

536
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: part of how we're created and how we're the environment

537
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:27,839
Speaker 1: which we're raised, um, whether in home or societal. And

538
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: uh so it's not a flip of a switch. Unfortunately,

539
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: it takes time. It takes time to learn how to

540
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 1: actually lean in and not deaf, you know, defend your pride,

541
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,759
Speaker 1: to really just here the pain and sit in the

542
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 1: pain and feel the pain of somebody else, they their

543
00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: pain is because of me. That's hard to do. We're

544
00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 1: not taught how to do that. We're taught to defend ourselves,

545
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: to stand up for ourselves, to get over it, to

546
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: not show emotion. So to be asked to sitting someone

547
00:38:16,480 --> 00:38:21,919
Speaker 1: else's emotion, we can't even sit in ours. So it's

548
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: you know, it just it took me time, unfortunately, and

549
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: I'm sad about that because that's just adding more pain

550
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: and more distance between us and our marriage. And I

551
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:38,799
Speaker 1: wish it we didn't have to go through so much.

552
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: I really don't, you know, because I do choose you,

553
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: I do love you, I do respect you, and I

554
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 1: truly feel those things. But I know my actions I

555
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 1: haven't always shown it and you always haven't felt it

556
00:38:56,160 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: because of this, because of those actions. Ye. So yeah,

557
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 1: I mean everyone else, everyone has their own timeline and

558
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:11,759
Speaker 1: the what do you do with the entitlement piece or

559
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: the you know, for the guys or women that have

560
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:23,839
Speaker 1: that entitlement piece where it's um. You know, you've even

561
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:28,279
Speaker 1: said with your addict that you're like, yeah, I got it,

562
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 1: What do you do with this? What are the steps

563
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,279
Speaker 1: that you're taking? I mean, I know but like, what

564
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: for those out there that what are steps that you're

565
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: doing too? Because I'm gonna say my steps that I

566
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,320
Speaker 1: have to do now, you know with the recovery piece,

567
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 1: but what for you? What are the steps that is

568
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:56,800
Speaker 1: it acknowledgement? Is it leaning into recovery? Are you talking

569
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,359
Speaker 1: from purely a recovery standpoint? Are you talking from give

570
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: me both for those dealing with either from just trying

571
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: to change who they've been. Yeah, I think you can

572
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: do both. I think you can do recovery and you

573
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 1: can also do mm hmm. What for those people that

574
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 1: aren't addicts or sex addicts or alcoholics or what can

575
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: they do? What can they do to maybe help show

576
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: some trust? Because I mean what I had said to

577
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 1: you and just full disclosure, I was like, what do

578
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: I have to hold onto? You've taken every piece of

579
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: and you've said everything before. So what do I have

580
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,480
Speaker 1: that I can actually hold on to anymore? I don't?

581
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 1: And that's been the hardest pieces to try to regain

582
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:47,399
Speaker 1: that the blocks again. Yeah, and you know it's I'm

583
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,439
Speaker 1: glad you say that because it reminded me of kind

584
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 1: of sparked how I want to answer this and for

585
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: so much of the past. So for years in this

586
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:05,959
Speaker 1: with you, you're hear in program, you hear from every

587
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 1: therapist is you have to want this for yourself, and

588
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 1: that's just that's addiction aside. You have to want the

589
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:19,360
Speaker 1: change for yourself. You have to want the respect for yourself.

590
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: You have to you have to want all that for yourself.

591
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 1: And over the past several years I said those words

592
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 1: out loud, but I didn't necessarily believe him. Where I

593
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 1: was motivated internally more by doing something to try to

594
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: show you and put on a show or aracade to

595
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 1: be like CEC like I'm doing this, I'm doing this,

596
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: when really I was just punching the clock, going to

597
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: a meeting, punching my time card. Yeah I went to

598
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 1: a meeting this week. Call my sponsor. Yeah I call

599
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 1: my sponsor this week, you know, doing whatever else to

600
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 1: change as a husband, as a man, whatever, and just

601
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,879
Speaker 1: being like, yeah, I'm doing this to show that I'm

602
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: doing something different, when again, in reality, I'm not doing

603
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: anything life changing. I'm feeling the same way about myself.

604
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,760
Speaker 1: I'm not respecting myself anymore, I'm not loving myself anymore

605
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: because I'm really not doing anything different. And I said

606
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,720
Speaker 1: this to you just not long ago. It's the most

607
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 1: cliche thing we've all heard, and it's never been more

608
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 1: true for me than it is now. And that's you

609
00:42:43,920 --> 00:42:48,799
Speaker 1: can't truly love someone else until you love yourself. I've

610
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:53,439
Speaker 1: never really understood that. I've never really got it until now.

611
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, that's true. That's true. Because

612
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: if I can't even respect myself and be honest with

613
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: myself because I justify everything, how the hell did I

614
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:09,640
Speaker 1: expect myself to to do that to you? How can

615
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: I respect you if I don't respect myself? How can

616
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 1: I be honest to you? If I'm not honest to myself.

617
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:18,000
Speaker 1: You can't. If you can't do it to yourself, then

618
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 1: who the hell can you do it too? Can't give

619
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 1: someone something you don't have and you don't give yourself.

620
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 1: So and that again, that goes for that's not just

621
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 1: addiction recovery aspect. That's for you know, relational and even

622
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 1: if you're not in a relationship, for yourself, so do

623
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 1: something different. So for me, that's I'm doing things I've

624
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: never done before. And it's funny that we're it's starting

625
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: to become a habit where I look forward to it.

626
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 1: I look forward to that time I make every morning,

627
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: and it is about making the time. This is probably

628
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 1: one of the first times I'm making not just taking

629
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 1: time out of my day. I'm making time out of

630
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:08,239
Speaker 1: my day by waking up earlier to do things. And

631
00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,240
Speaker 1: it for once, it doesn't feel like a chore because

632
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:14,520
Speaker 1: I'm not just doing it to appease you. I'm doing

633
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 1: it because I'm actually gaining something out of it, and

634
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,280
Speaker 1: I feel more self respect for myself because I'm actually

635
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: being honest and following through with it. So it's those

636
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 1: kind of things where like you said, I've said everything before,

637
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: I've done it all before. For the most part, it's

638
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:38,320
Speaker 1: like what else, what do you have to hold onto?

639
00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:45,279
Speaker 1: And I was like, I have said everything before. There's

640
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 1: only one place else to look, and that's inside of me.

641
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 1: And it's like, what do I need to do to

642
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 1: change for me? Because everything I've tried to do to

643
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 1: change for you hasn't worked. It's just the same pattern

644
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,359
Speaker 1: because every time I just try to change for you

645
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:06,720
Speaker 1: and salvage and rescue the situation, and some time passes

646
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 1: and then we just kind of fall back into the

647
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: same thing and look where that's gotten us, you know.

648
00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:18,719
Speaker 1: So I think that's the biggest thing for me, whether

649
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 1: male or female, is do it for you, do it

650
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 1: for you. And that leads into the exact situation with

651
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,320
Speaker 1: for the I don't ever want to say the victim

652
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: because that sounds but for the Okay, the person who's hurt, well,

653
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: you're hurt too, the person who got hurt, you got

654
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: hurt too. Yeah, because of my actions, I just yeah,

655
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: um is. I remember sitting in therapy with my therapist Amy,

656
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 1: who I just adore so much, and you know, this

657
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 1: is a couple of weeks ago, and I'm just you know,

658
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, how do I, how do I? How

659
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 1: do I trust him again? How do we you know,

660
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: how do I do this? Or how do I? What

661
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: do I do? And how does you know? He has

662
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 1: just kept saying you and she's like, you're so focused

663
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: on She's like, you have to do your work. She's like,

664
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,960
Speaker 1: which we're doing. She's like, but you always She's like,

665
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: you're always trying to figure out how to be better

666
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: for him, or how to how to trust him or too.

667
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 1: It's like you're so your world is so involved with

668
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 1: him that you're forgetting the pieces that you need to

669
00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:40,880
Speaker 1: work on and you need to to love and and

670
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 1: nurture and to understand why you're looking for these certain things.

671
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: You know, why you're looking for safety and why you're

672
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 1: looking for trust, and like why you're repeating or what? Also,

673
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: what are you staying for? What are you you know?

674
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: But it's it's not it's not about you, because she's like,

675
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 1: that's just like, then we do we do a couple

676
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,040
Speaker 1: of sessions. She's like, well, right now we have to

677
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:09,919
Speaker 1: figure out what what are your emotions and what you're

678
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 1: feeling and not it's not about him? And that was

679
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 1: such a I was like, oh, okay, well that's scary.

680
00:47:18,000 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: I don't want to look at me right now. Like

681
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: it's easier to just be like, well, how can I

682
00:47:22,080 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: trust him? And well I have to go inside and

683
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 1: figure out what parts of me am I not? You know,

684
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 1: why don't I trust? And why do I feel the

685
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:36,439
Speaker 1: need for safety so bad? And that's when you start,

686
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 1: you know, going in your child at traumas, which you

687
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 1: know I have done time and time again. But every

688
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: time you go back to your childhood traumas, you realize

689
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: more things than with our relationship and what we've learned

690
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:49,600
Speaker 1: kind of in our intensive is you know, I'm looking

691
00:47:49,640 --> 00:47:53,399
Speaker 1: for safety or looking for autonomy, rest and respect. Yeah,

692
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 1: and and I'm looking for safety and connection. And it's

693
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 1: like when we sit there and we bring in our

694
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:04,839
Speaker 1: childhood self and then we talked about our fights like well, no,

695
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 1: wonder why like the dance that we're doing. But now

696
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 1: I can look at and be like, Okay, this is

697
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 1: what he's needing in this moment. How can I now

698
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 1: help him in this moment? But also I'll just go

699
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 1: back to like the personal recovery is just again realizing

700
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 1: what you're worth is and you know, for a long

701
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,439
Speaker 1: time and this has been something that's been real hard

702
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 1: to deal with. Is I always thought that I deserved Um,

703
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,280
Speaker 1: I thought that I deserved the abuse. For my first husband,

704
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 1: I thought that I deserved his Really, you know that

705
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 1: it was my fault that he relapsed. It was my

706
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 1: fault that he had you know, that was it was

707
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 1: my fault. And I have put all this pressure and

708
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 1: weight and ugliness and just darkness on myself, which comes

709
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,760
Speaker 1: out in ugly ways. It comes out, and anger towards

710
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 1: you comes out, in being hurtful, It comes out and shameful.

711
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 1: It comes out in me repeating the haven't don't you

712
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 1: see my lad? It's like it comes out and such,

713
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 1: But all I'm looking for is just that safety m

714
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: h and not it's exhausting. I have something to say

715
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: on that I think might help the listeners. Let's take

716
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:25,279
Speaker 1: a break real quick. I'm gonna come back to that,

717
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:34,879
Speaker 1: all right. So I had something I wanted to bring

718
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: up before the break there based on what you said.

719
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that even though we're doing this

720
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: work together and we're able to see each other's like

721
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:55,799
Speaker 1: behind the scenes feelings and stuff, I think that's not

722
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:57,919
Speaker 1: even where the main benefit is. It's like, the main

723
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: benefit is for us to be able to identify our

724
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 1: own feelings in the situation, you know what I mean.

725
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 1: So it's not even more. I think there's more power

726
00:50:09,719 --> 00:50:12,799
Speaker 1: with you being able to be like, man, why am

727
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 1: I feeling this way? What's coming up with me? Instead

728
00:50:15,480 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 1: of me having to interpret Okay, what was it about

729
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,880
Speaker 1: our past? Again? Because yeah, we know each other stories

730
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 1: very very well, but not as well as you know

731
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 1: yours and I know mine because we physically feel those feelings.

732
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 1: So to be able to be educated in for us

733
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: as individuals to look back and be like, Okay, what

734
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 1: is coming up for me? And to be able to

735
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:37,320
Speaker 1: express that to each other, that just sets us, sets

736
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: us up for more success, to be able to articulate it,

737
00:50:41,680 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: to articulate that to one another. Yes, also, it's so hard,

738
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 1: so hard to be that vulnerable. I mean even earlier

739
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 1: today when I wanted to express the feeling to it

740
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 1: took me twenty minutes to get vulnerable because before I

741
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: just wanted to say, aren't you gonna help with kids?

742
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,479
Speaker 1: You said you're gonna help with kids, you know, And

743
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:08,800
Speaker 1: that's what I wanted to say. But instead I felt

744
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 1: the feeling and was like, what is this feeling? And

745
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,759
Speaker 1: I was like, you know, the Janna before would have

746
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 1: done something passive or would have thrown it at you,

747
00:51:19,920 --> 00:51:21,319
Speaker 1: or would have been like you said you were going

748
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: to come up and help with kids, But was that

749
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 1: more important? Clearly? Don't you know? You know? And just

750
00:51:25,360 --> 00:51:27,759
Speaker 1: be And so I was just I felt it like

751
00:51:27,800 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 1: in my chest, and that's when I came down here

752
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: and I said, I I need to express a feeling

753
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 1: and it just it's so raw and it's so vulnerable.

754
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 1: But you were able to hear me. And that's the

755
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:47,480
Speaker 1: difference where when we cast passiveness or not respect like

756
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:50,800
Speaker 1: vice versa. Like both of us do that and we

757
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,439
Speaker 1: we don't hear the other person, but you were able

758
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:55,080
Speaker 1: to hear the other person when they sit here from

759
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 1: a good place and they're like Bill and Laurie are

760
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: are couples in tense of will set. You know, mad

761
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:05,799
Speaker 1: props to them because there if anyone has a chance

762
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 1: to come to Nashville and doing intensive with them, Bill

763
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 1: and uh Lorie Loke either absolutely incredible human beings, but

764
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 1: they're not You're not only able in that process to

765
00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 1: see maybe what your spouse is little child needs, but

766
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 1: also what you need or what you're feeling or like

767
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: and how to how to be vulnerable and how to

768
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 1: go there. And it's so I mean, there's so many

769
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 1: times the last couple of days where we've sat in

770
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:31,719
Speaker 1: and it's just like we look at her and it's

771
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: like it's so uncomfortable to be so vulnerable. Yeah, but

772
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 1: it's cool because we get to see because it's a

773
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: husband and wife that are doing this intensive together. You

774
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 1: never feel it's even numbers, so you never feel ganged

775
00:52:44,040 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 1: up on like that can happen in a couple of

776
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 1: sessions when it's just one therapist, and we also get

777
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 1: to see their couple ship in front of us where

778
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, I just interrupted, sorry, and they have

779
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:58,319
Speaker 1: their moments of like their own work in front of us,

780
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:02,759
Speaker 1: and it's really cool to see that even these professionals

781
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 1: who do this stuff aren't perfect and that kind of

782
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 1: brings us to you know, wrapping this episode up with

783
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:16,680
Speaker 1: you know, we share because we want to be able

784
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:21,200
Speaker 1: to help you know, people out there. We want people

785
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:24,920
Speaker 1: to not feel alone and to understand that they don't

786
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:29,359
Speaker 1: have to get it all right because clearly we don't. Yeah,

787
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:31,879
Speaker 1: and just like you hear sometimes when it's like man,

788
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:34,319
Speaker 1: I don't feel like you respected Mike that episode or

789
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 1: you were being it's like, yeah, I was. But also

790
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 1: in a way take that as a learning tool to

791
00:53:39,760 --> 00:53:42,799
Speaker 1: also see what I could have done differently and how

792
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,879
Speaker 1: you can grow. And also it's for me too, This

793
00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: is this podcast as a learning tool for me as

794
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:51,239
Speaker 1: an individual too, to be how could I have expressed

795
00:53:51,239 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 1: that differently? How could I have said that differently? How

796
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 1: can I be a better friend, How can I be

797
00:53:55,680 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 1: a better wife? How can I be a better mom. Yeah,

798
00:53:59,200 --> 00:54:02,919
Speaker 1: we're learning, and we will still make mistakes and there

799
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 1: will still be hurt but I pray together there's no

800
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 1: more harm Well said. Honey Well said, but we're we

801
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 1: learn as much if not more from when we do this,

802
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:21,959
Speaker 1: and maybe hopefully anyone out there is because we're going

803
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:25,000
Speaker 1: through this and like jan said, we're not perfect. Were

804
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:27,719
Speaker 1: trying to figure this out too. I just would like

805
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 1: to say too that we do appreciate um y'all for

806
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 1: letting a share and for being there and for not judging.

807
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 1: And that's that's the hugest part, because we're we're putting

808
00:54:43,160 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 1: ourselves out there in a very vulnerable way to be

809
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 1: picked upon, picked apart, and made to be criticized. Like

810
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 1: our story is a very criticized She's dumb, He's this,

811
00:54:56,239 --> 00:54:59,120
Speaker 1: you know, and it's it's a very criticized piece where

812
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:06,200
Speaker 1: it can be hurtful sometimes, but we know what can

813
00:55:06,239 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 1: be harmful and we know what for us at the

814
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:11,839
Speaker 1: end of the day, we want to be able to

815
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 1: continue to say, you know what, who listens to this

816
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 1: podcast with people that know our hearts and that know

817
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: that we're doing this for the right reasons. And also

818
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 1: we're wanting to be authentic because we don't know the

819
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:25,839
Speaker 1: answers and we're not trying to we don't not trying

820
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 1: to be perfect because we don't know how to be

821
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 1: and who knows how to be perfect? But if we

822
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,160
Speaker 1: can help someone along the way try to navigate their struggles,

823
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 1: then we're here for you, and we hear you and

824
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,239
Speaker 1: we see you, and we love help along the way too,

825
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:42,160
Speaker 1: because we're not above any of it and we're right

826
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 1: there with you, all here you. I'm tired. I'm tired too,

827
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 1: and I just want to say thank you, honey for

828
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:55,880
Speaker 1: holding it down. And I am so excited to be back.

829
00:55:56,600 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: I feel very fortunate to be back, and definitely don't

830
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 1: take you for granted. Thank you. I appreciate that. And

831
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:19,200
Speaker 1: it's so hard, no I I I'm going in. Something

832
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 1: that maybe we can touch on the next episode is

833
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:27,360
Speaker 1: how we're gonna move and create a new marriage. And

834
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:29,440
Speaker 1: I just would encourage you guys to listen to Estra

835
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:33,720
Speaker 1: Parrel and her Ted talks about the new marriage because

836
00:56:33,719 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 1: that's what I kind of want to touch on next

837
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:39,359
Speaker 1: week and I'd like that for us, so that way, Yeah,

838
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:41,439
Speaker 1: the pain can still be there, but it's not. It's

839
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: we want a different marriage and I would like to

840
00:56:47,719 --> 00:56:55,280
Speaker 1: marry and start fresh, you know, so deep breath everyone.

841
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 1: We'll see you next week, will you know? Okay, I

842
00:57:02,000 --> 00:57:03,760
Speaker 1: guys stand in in anute.