WEBVTT - Are You Successful? 0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:04.200 From executive search to talent strategy, leadership development, rewards and 0:00:04.200 --> 0:00:06.880 succession planning. Corn Fairy can help you realize the full 0:00:06.880 --> 0:00:09.879 potential of your people so you can take your business 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:12.560 where it wants to go up. Learn more at corn 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:27.040 Ferry dot com slash up. Welcome to game Plan, a 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:29.880 show about our lives at work. I'm Rebecca Greenfield, a 0:00:29.920 --> 0:00:32.800 reporter for Bloomberg, where I cover workplace culture, and I 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:35.880 am Sam Grobart, a writer at Bloomberg Business Week magazine. 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.440 This week we're talking about success, and before you get 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.480 too excited, listening to this will not help you make 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:46.080 a million dollars or help you retire early. We don't 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:48.840 have ten easy tips and tricks for how to climb 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:51.760 the corporate ladder. We want to tackle a much more 0:00:51.840 --> 0:00:55.800 basic question, which is what is success? How do we 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:58.440 even define it? Later we're going to talk to the 0:00:58.480 --> 0:01:02.600 comedian Chris Gothard about his ideas on success. But first, Sam, 0:01:02.600 --> 0:01:04.600 why don't we talk about how we feel about success? 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:07.600 How do you define it? Becca? I would describe success 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.800 for me essentially as freedom and what it isn't so 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:15.360 it's not worrying necessarily about things financial or monetary. But 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:18.360 also not feeling like I'm doing work that I don't 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:21.240 want to be doing that isn't fulfilling for me. The 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:24.000 freedom to pursue the things that I want to do 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:29.200 and live a life that is comfortable and absence of 0:01:29.319 --> 0:01:33.039 major concerns. That definitely sounds luxurious and really nice, and 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:35.760 it also sounds like from what I understand the life 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:38.039 you live now, do you feel like you have that? 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:41.640 I mean, I feel pretty fortunate at this point, and 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:44.679 you're actually catching me, like in a three week period 0:01:44.720 --> 0:01:47.960 of actually like real kind of positive feelings about things, 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.280 and I'm not sure, I'm much sure how longer it's 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:53.360 gonna last, but I do have it right now. I 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:57.960 feel like success is you doing the things you want 0:01:58.000 --> 0:02:02.320 to do, you unencumbered, unencumbered by all the other things 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:04.840 that can make life more difficult, that you are able 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:07.280 to express yourself, that you're able to be the person 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:08.720 you want to be do the things you want to do. 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:11.400 And if you're able to do that, then yeah, I 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:13.760 think then you're successful. So you mentioned during this three 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:17.560 week period of happiness, but your life at work has 0:02:17.600 --> 0:02:19.440 been the same pretty study for a while, so I 0:02:19.440 --> 0:02:22.240 guess when you're not in those weeks of periods of happiness, 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:25.519 what are you worrying about. I'm worried about not contributing. 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.079 I think what corresponds to this three week period is 0:02:28.120 --> 0:02:32.520 that I've actually been really busy. And you know, people 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:36.079 complain about being busy, but this is the good kind. Yeah, 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:39.960 I definitely have the same feelings about that. And yeah, 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:42.160 when the things are contributing are things that you're proud 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:44.440 of and that you really like and you think are 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:48.240 useful to the world, I think that feels like success exactly. 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:50.000 You could work very hard at some stuff that you 0:02:50.080 --> 0:02:52.359 don't really believe in a lot of people unfortunately get 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:53.960 stuck in that position. I am sure I will get 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:56.920 stuck in that position again. Yeah, but if you have 0:02:57.080 --> 0:02:59.640 the opportunity to like, really like what you do and 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:01.720 be working on things that, like you just said, you 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:04.800 really believe in, then that work is a pleasure. But 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:06.920 it's unfortunate that we have to feel that way because 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:10.160 sometimes I do work that I just do to be 0:03:10.240 --> 0:03:14.520 doing work, to be doing my job, and yeah, it 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:17.839 doesn't feel great, but that still doesn't mean I'm not successful. 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:20.240 But I still struggle with the angsty feelings that you're 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:23.160 talking about. I totally understand back. I mean, I'm curious, 0:03:23.320 --> 0:03:27.640 do you feel right now that you are successful at 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:29.840 what you're doing, or do you still feel like that's 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:32.280 something that you're always chasing. I feel like it's something 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:35.119 I'm always chasing, and I have to remind myself that 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.320 other people will probably perceive me as someone who is 0:03:38.360 --> 0:03:42.440 successful in very basic ways. I'm employed, I make a 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:46.320 good salary, I work for a good company as a journalist. 0:03:46.560 --> 0:03:49.440 I have a pretty good job. All those things are 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:52.960 how people measure success. And yet somehow I don't have 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:54.960 those feelings that you're talking about of feeling like I 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:56.760 have control, even though I do have a ton of 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.800 freedom in my job. So I don't know where that 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:02.440 feeling comes from. I was gonna ask you what's missing. 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:05.960 I think it's that doing work that I'm really proud of. 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:08.440 I want that to be a constant thing all the time, 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:12.240 and maybe that's an unattainable ideal, Like maybe that's crazy. 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:15.000 I think that it might be. I think that, Yeah, no, 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:16.760 I do. I think that if you can keep it 0:04:16.800 --> 0:04:20.240 above of work that you're proud of, and hopefully even 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:22.719 more than that, you know, sixties seventy eighty whatever. But 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.000 I've come to the peace with the notion that, like 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:27.520 some work is just going to be work. Yeah, and 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:30.200 as long as it's kept in the proper proportion, I 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.440 can even sort of accept it and feel like, Okay, 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:35.760 I know this isn't like going to change the world 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:38.200 or anything, but you know, other stuff I do hopefully 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:40.560 can or you know, whatever it takes off the boxes, 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:45.640 get some Twitter faves, that's that's changing the world. Um. 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:48.800 That's that's my measure. Um. And so you just kind 0:04:48.800 --> 0:04:51.160 of accepted as part of the bargain. I think it's 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:53.560 harder because I'm at this point in my career because 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:55.719 I'm much earlier on in my career than you where 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:57.920 I'm a polite way of saying, she's much younger. Yes, 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:03.120 I'm a little bit younger where I'm supposed to be, yeah, 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:07.760 chasing success and investing in my career and finding an 0:05:07.760 --> 0:05:10.880 audience and doing all these things. So it feels harder 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:14.440 to just sit back and enjoy the ride, as they say, 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:16.960 right right now. I mean, I think that's probably true. 0:05:17.000 --> 0:05:19.400 And and given where I am in my career, which 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:22.760 is different than yours, I think I am very familiar 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:26.640 with the feelings that you're describing, and it hasn't been 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:30.520 that long since I wasn't feeling them as much, right, 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:32.600 you know. I mean it really just maybe a couple 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:35.760 of years. But somewhere along the way you start to 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.560 realize or at least I started to realize or feel that, 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:42.080 you know, hey, Okay, this is fine, this is good, 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:44.200 you know, and I think I don't know, you have 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:46.120 other things you start to care about. I mean, you know, 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:48.960 like probably the majority of my mental energy is spent 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:51.640 thinking about like my kids, and so my job is 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:54.039 that that happens when you have children, you know, and 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:57.280 so my jobs sort of restructures according to that, and 0:05:57.360 --> 0:06:00.080 like where it once loomed so large, now it's like 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:04.000 it's really it's important anyway. That is all to say 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:05.880 that I think you and I are both very lucky 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.599 and this is just like angsty problems I have, but 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:12.960 still worth discussing. And to dig deeper, we're going to 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:19.080 bring on our guest, Chris Goatherd. We're so happy to 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:22.880 have Chris Gatherd here. He's a comedian, writer, performer. He 0:06:23.000 --> 0:06:25.920 started as Bill in the Summers Don't Think Twice, and 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:28.440 you've also seen him on broad City. He has an 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:33.400 upcoming off Broadway show, Career Suicide, which premieres octobert Hey, Chris, 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:35.520 thanks for being here, Thank you for having me. So 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.839 today we're talking about success. Yeah, and Chris, I thought 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:40.840 I could start off maybe by asking you a sort 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.599 of two part question. Okay, I might ask you to 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:45.920 be a little bit maybe I modest. I'm not sure. Um. 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:48.400 The first part of the question is do you think 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:50.919 and feel? And by the way, those might actually be 0:06:50.960 --> 0:06:55.120 two very different things. That you are more successful today 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:58.039 than you were a year ago. It's a that's a 0:06:58.120 --> 0:07:02.800 really interesting question because it's intellectually like cerebrallly, I am 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:06.400 aware that I am more successful than I used to be, 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:10.640 but emotionally I feel the same type of panic that 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:13.960 I've always felt. So I can look back and like 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:16.800 think about what types of things I was doing a 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:18.200 few years ago, and I'm like, I don't even know 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:21.040 how I was paying my rent then, but I'm aware 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:23.040 of how I pay my rent now. I feel a 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:25.240 lot more comfortable with it and secure in it. But 0:07:25.320 --> 0:07:28.920 I don't necessarily feel more successful emotionally. Although I'm aware 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:31.760 that I am more successful than I was a year ago. 0:07:31.880 --> 0:07:34.440 How do you measure that? How do you how do 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:37.920 you know cerebrally that you are well. I can, first 0:07:37.920 --> 0:07:40.320 of all, not to be totally gross, but I can 0:07:40.360 --> 0:07:43.080 look at my bank account and be aware, like, Okay, 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:44.960 I have more breathing room than I had a couple 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:47.520 of years ago. That's a good thing. So there's that 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.239 side of it, and then there's also the side of things. 0:07:50.520 --> 0:07:54.080 You know. One thing that I've noticed is I I've 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:56.480 always been a very self reliant person, and there were 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:59.440 there was a long stretch where I was sort of 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:02.680 profound only unsuccessful publicly, and that was kind of my 0:08:03.320 --> 0:08:06.360 public persona. I actually built most of my career on 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:08.400 a public access TV show, which is kind of the 0:08:08.440 --> 0:08:13.400 definition of not not It's not traditional success at the 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:16.440 very least, So having built things that way, I think 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:20.800 one thing I've stumbled into is the success I've had 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:23.880 is generally all self started and is all stuff that 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:27.160 I'm very much in control of, and that that's a 0:08:27.280 --> 0:08:28.880 big way to kind of measure it. Is that I 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:32.640 feel myself being less reliant on gatekeepers, people signing off 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:35.280 on me, people who can get me in the door, 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.600 because I've sort of found it in myself to kick 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:41.120 in some doors because nobody was really opening the doors 0:08:41.160 --> 0:08:43.120 for me for a very long time. So that's a 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:46.760 big indicator, is I need I need less people to 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:50.120 shepherd me towards success. I found ways to make my 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:53.160 own opportunities happen, and that's a big indicator. I know 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:55.480 that's kind of a ramboly answer, but not at all. Yeah, 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:57.880 it's basically, I've put myself in a position where I 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.920 have some agency over my own career, which is something 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.360 I feel more and more the past year or two. Yeah, 0:09:03.400 --> 0:09:06.000 we were talking about having freedom is a really big 0:09:06.320 --> 0:09:09.240 part of success for us in our careers too. And 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:11.720 you wrote this essay for a Vulture that I really 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:13.360 liked and one reason that we wanted to have you 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.439 on the show about all of your friends and colleagues. 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:18.839 I guess you don't call them colleagues and comedy moving 0:09:18.880 --> 0:09:23.720 to l A and chasing success, and how you saw 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:26.839 them doing that and they were finding a traditional version 0:09:26.840 --> 0:09:32.240 of success and you kind of have that traditional version 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:36.640 of success. Now. I went through the back door for it. 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:41.400 But I also I I would argue that I guess 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:43.120 it is traditional. I guess I have too cop to 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:45.400 the fact that I've, I've it's gotten a little more 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:48.360 mainstream than it used to be. Um, but I am 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:53.040 very proud of Like I like that, Like it's my 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:55.280 TV shows on public access for four years and now 0:09:55.280 --> 0:09:56.920 it's on a cable network where I get paid to 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:58.840 do it. But because of that background, I have a 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:01.600 lot more ability to call the shots then I think 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:04.560 a lot of people do in in having their first 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:06.920 TV show, like I like having a podcast. It's such 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:08.880 a free thing. I get to set my own schedule. 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:10.640 I get to really define how I want it done. 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:14.280 So I do get that, and and it's been interesting 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:15.920 to see so many of my friends go to l 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:18.680 A and chase it and find it in many cases. 0:10:19.160 --> 0:10:21.599 But I think for me, one of the things that 0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:24.920 sudjusted majorly in my thirties versus my twenties is that 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:28.439 like success and happiness are not synonymous to me anymore, 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:31.280 Like they don't go hand in hand. Success oftentimes it's 0:10:31.280 --> 0:10:34.559 a headache that brings pressures with it, and happiness is 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:37.800 not really inherent on my ability to publicly say look 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:39.200 at me and all the great things I've done. They 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:42.040 don't really go hand in hand anymore, which is nice 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:46.839 do you feel that, having now achieved some success and 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:49.360 hopefully achieving much more in the future, that you have 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:53.200 to be like very very mindful of holding onto your 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:58.080 independence and making sure that you preserve the freedoms. Like 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:00.840 you said, success can sometimes bring a lot of assholes, 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.440 So it's not just you let success happen to you. 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:05.560 You actually have to engage it and and sort of 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:08.400 manage it. I would think, yeah, I think so. I 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:10.920 think so because I've also seen I've seen a lot 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:12.600 of my friends get successful over the years, and a 0:11:12.600 --> 0:11:15.959 lot of them remain well adjusted people with their priorities straight. 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:18.640 But you do see cases where people wind up in 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:22.720 this weird world where the rules are different, and you 0:11:22.800 --> 0:11:24.760 see them get caught up in it, and you see 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:26.800 them buy into it, and that, in my experience having 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:29.640 seen that, it never really ends well. Nobody, nobody ever 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:33.600 winds up like surrounded by more friends when they go 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:36.080 into success world and when they go into celebrity world. 0:11:36.160 --> 0:11:38.839 So for me, as I get more successful, I'm almost 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:41.240 kind of like consciously pushing back against it. Not in 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:43.400 a self sabotaging way, not that I want to stop 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:45.959 my career momentum, but I just need to make sure 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:49.200 my priorities remain true for a few reasons. One because 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:51.559 I think that will help me remain a person with 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:54.560 a good head on his shoulders. But also I feel 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:56.640 like there's a very dangerous thing that can happen, which 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.920 is people will be sort of in the underground. In comedy. 0:12:00.000 --> 0:12:01.960 I can speak to comedy. You know, you're in the 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:05.200 trenches doing shows, building a fan base, like attracting your people, 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.680 finding your other collaborators who have a similar mindset. And 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:10.760 then sometimes people get successful and all of a sudden 0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:12.319 it's like, great, I'm done with that, let me leave 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:14.560 it all behind. And I think that's such a dangerous thing. 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:16.600 So I'm actually at a point now where I've had 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:18.920 a couple of good years, but I'm also where that 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:21.600 won't last. And one of my biggest priorities is to 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:26.280 try to maybe find some comedians who are less experienced 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:28.240 than I am, who remind me of where I was 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:30.640 out a few years ago, and trying to include them 0:12:30.679 --> 0:12:33.000 and trying to sort of create sort of like a 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:37.080 safety net of allies while giving other people opportunities Like 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:39.680 I I I'm very proud of my TV show. Like 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:41.560 there's a lot of people whose first writing jobs and 0:12:41.600 --> 0:12:43.600 first acting jobs are on my show, because it's like 0:12:43.600 --> 0:12:46.080 a very small, entry level show, and I like that. 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:48.200 But that's also a strategic move on my part, in 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:50.080 the sense of, let me find all the other like 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:53.120 minded people and make sure that I'm helping them out 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:55.800 so that when I'm not doing well and they are, 0:12:55.920 --> 0:12:58.360 maybe they'll feel inclined to help me out. So I 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:01.000 feel like it's always to me feel it feels like 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:03.720 a very smart thing. Is the second I got any 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:06.120 anything resembling success, I was like, let me spread this 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:07.960 around and include as many people as I can in 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:10.440 it so that I don't lose sight of myself and 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:13.920 so that I'm building something more long term. Then right now, 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:16.720 the adrenaline rush of like being in a movie or 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:19.840 selling your TV show or mounting this off Broadway show, 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:23.360 it's like, those adrenaline rushes are really cool feelings, But 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:25.040 I think I always try to think, well, what's the 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.240 long term? What can I build long term out of this? 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.200 How can I make this sustain beyond this particular month 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:32.280 or two that feels so exciting. How can I build 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:35.800 this into something that that serves me in a year 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:37.960 or five years from now, and I think I've been 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:40.960 really smart about that, mostly out of necessity. You gotta 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.120 have to find your allies and make sure everybody takes 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:48.160 care of each other. I really relate to those feelings 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:51.640 of the adrenaline rush, feeling really good but then crashing 0:13:51.960 --> 0:13:53.599 from it after. And I want to go back to 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:56.920 something you said earlier about how in your twenties, which 0:13:56.960 --> 0:14:00.199 is the decade I'm in right now, Um, you quit 0:14:00.240 --> 0:14:02.520 a success and happiness and then when you're in your 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.960 thirties you realize that they weren't related. How do you 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:09.400 do that? How do you even now? Because I mean, 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:13.480 you're probably happy that you're successful. Yeah, I am, And 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:16.920 it's a piece of the puzzle. But it's also it's 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:20.840 very funny because like when you said my name, most 0:14:20.920 --> 0:14:23.000 of the people hearing this were like who, And then 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:25.280 a handful of them were like, oh, I think I 0:14:25.320 --> 0:14:27.920 know who that guy is, and a very miniscule, very 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:30.680 very miniscule percentage was like, oh, that guy's rat like 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:33.640 and I'm aware that that's who I am. Like we're 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:36.680 talking right now in an interview about how I have 0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.600 achieved some level of success. But that being said, if 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:42.280 I became a household name tomorrow. It would have the 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.640 appearance of an overnight sensation. Whereas I'm someone who's worked 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:48.240 in comedy for sixteen years. So I think for me, 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:51.520 I've had so many near misses with big level stuff 0:14:52.240 --> 0:14:55.000 that I think i've I was very I think I 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:56.520 was very lucky when I was. When I was twenty 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:58.960 nine years old, I got cast as the lead in 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:02.560 a sitcom and this it comp bombed hard. It's bad 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:06.120 and not an easy thing to go through, but I 0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:09.080 thank God all the time for it, because it was 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:13.280 this thing where I almost got this very traditional definition 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.440 of what every comedian is chasing. I did get it. 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:18.880 It just bottomed out very quickly. But I was in 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:21.160 that situation, and while I was in it, I was like, Oh, 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:23.200 this didn't solve any of my problems. It didn't make 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:26.040 me any happier. I have this big job. The New 0:15:26.080 --> 0:15:28.440 York Times wrote a profile on me because of this job. 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.120 None of that means that I'm not like an anxious, 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:33.520 depressed person. None of that means that I'm not sleeping 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.640 in a bedroom with no closet and woodside queens like 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:40.800 it's not it's not real. It's very gilded and that 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:42.760 was this thing where I feel like I look back 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:44.280 on that experience and it was very hard to live 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:46.120 through them. But now it feels to me almost like 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:48.480 someone pulled back the curtain and was like, this is 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:50.520 the machine. You're gonna go get in the gears of 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:52.720 this machine and get caught up in it, and it's 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:54.920 not gonna do anything for you. It's not gonna make 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.480 you happy. And when that show failed, when it went away, 0:15:57.560 --> 0:15:59.440 I wasn't that sad. I was like, all right, let 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:01.640 me try to and the next thing. So it was 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:04.480 this weird thing of realizing that I've come close. I 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:06.520 was almost hired as a writer on Saturday Night Live 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:08.560 in two thousand seven. I was there for two weeks 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:10.800 as a guest writer, and I was there and I 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:12.680 was like, Oh, this is so exciting and everybody wants 0:16:12.720 --> 0:16:14.200 this job. And then I got there and I was like, Oh, 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:17.240 this is so stressful and scary. And then they didn't 0:16:17.280 --> 0:16:19.240 hire me, and I was like, Oh, that's such a bomber. 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.000 Even then, I was seven years in when that SNW 0:16:22.080 --> 0:16:24.280 thing happened. I was ten years into doing comedy when 0:16:24.280 --> 0:16:29.000 the sitcom thing happened. So I think the shorthand non 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.840 Rambobly answer is I've come close enough to big time 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:37.800 things enough times that I'm aware that they're not the 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:41.520 healing remedy that I always assumed they would be. They're 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:44.040 just jobs, and some of them make you happy and 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:45.840 some of them make you not happy. But at the 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:48.400 end of the day, like going home to my wife 0:16:48.960 --> 0:16:51.000 or catching up with my buddies from college when I 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:53.240 haven't seen them in a while, makes me so much 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:57.080 happier than being in a movie. Not that I sneeze 0:16:57.080 --> 0:17:00.160 at being in a movie. I'm lucky, but I I'd 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:03.520 rather live a real life. Entertainment is not real life. 0:17:03.840 --> 0:17:08.280 Do you feel grateful that the success that you're encountering 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.639 is happening to you now, given your experiences over the 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:18.480 past some odd years, that you sort of it's happening 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:21.360 for you at the right time that you are sort 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:24.400 of prepared for it now. One thousand percent. I think 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:26.119 I think about I was just joking with someone the 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:30.119 other day about they said, because you know, don't think twice. 0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:31.760 The movie that I'm in is about someone who gets 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:34.560 hired at sn L, and they were like, oh, you 0:17:34.640 --> 0:17:36.600 almost got hired there, And I was like, yeah. But 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:38.840 if I got hired at SNL when I was twenty seven, 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:41.240 I would have lost my mind. I was like, I 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:44.879 was like a depressed person in a big way. Like 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:47.600 I would have definitely become one of those SNL horror 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:49.800 stories of like some drugs. I would have been one 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:51.639 of the drug addicts or the drunks. I would have 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:55.199 driven me to madness. I wasn't ready. So I look 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:57.000 back now and realize it hurts so much to not 0:17:57.119 --> 0:17:59.399 get that job then, but I think I really dodged 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:02.840 a bullet, and I feel like success for me. It's 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:06.040 almost very very similar to what I learned about like 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:08.840 dating in my teenage years in early twenties, which was 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:11.320 like if it's so clear that you want it so bad, 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:13.320 you don't get the time of day, you know what 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:14.760 I mean? Like any time I was a kid and 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:17.280 I was like really pining for a girl, it never worked. 0:18:17.280 --> 0:18:18.480 And when I was able to just be like, hey 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:21.479 we should go grab food, somebody be like yeah, and 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:23.040 it was when it was just hey, this is not 0:18:23.240 --> 0:18:26.000 rocket science, let's do this thing. It's like that desperation 0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.480 and like I really need this to happen. It almost 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:32.760 guarantees that it like pushes away any chance. So for me, 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:34.680 I hit my thirties and I had kind of given 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:37.639 up on the idea of any anything happening for me 0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:39.760 in a big way. And once I gave up and 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:42.200 was kind of like, I don't really care anymore, that's 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:45.119 when I started breaking through. Once I was like who cares, 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:47.800 which is like so weird. It's like that. A friend 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:49.960 of mine once told me a phrase about like dating. 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:52.480 I was like single for a while and miserab about it, 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:54.679 and he's like, hey, man, you're just you act hungry, 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:56.920 you stay hungry. You're acting too hungry, man, and that's 0:18:56.960 --> 0:18:58.720 why you can't get girls to pay attention to you. 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:01.159 I think it's the same thing the entertainment industry. As 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.800 soon as you choose to not care, that's when everybody's like, 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:06.680 you seem cool, we want to get on board. It's 0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:09.159 very only time I acted like I didn't care was 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:13.679 with my now wife. Yeah, right, twenty eight years of prining, pining, pining, 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:16.520 and then I was just like, let's just be I 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:20.000 believe the term that the kids uses thirsty, thirsty, don't 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.879 be too thirsty. On that note, I think we have 0:19:22.960 --> 0:19:26.359 to take a break for our sponsor, which is a 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:30.080