WEBVTT - Assaulted by Bill Cosby with Lili Bernard, Part 1 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:05.080 What happens when America's dad is revealed to be a perpetrator. 0:00:05.960 --> 0:00:11.000 Actress Lily Bernard knows all too well. On this emotional 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:15.680 episode of Navigating Narcissism, Lily bravely opens up for the 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:19.600 very first time about the horrific abuse she endured at 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:23.600 the hands of Bill Cosby. When Lily first met Cosby 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:27.160 in nineteen eighty nine, she was just beginning her career. He, 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:30.920 on the other hand, was one of the most famous, respected, 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:35.440 and beloved men in the world. Since then, over sixty 0:00:35.600 --> 0:00:41.040 women have accused him of sexually assaulting, drugging, and raping them. 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:45.120 In twenty eighteen, Cosby was convicted and went to prison, 0:00:45.440 --> 0:00:48.840 before being released on a legal technicality less than three 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:53.640 years later. His crimes have been the focus of documentaries 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:58.160 and news articles, but the experiences of the survivors are 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:02.360 often glossed over. What did the grooming process look like? 0:01:02.760 --> 0:01:08.360 How did enablers and systems psychologically conspire to allow him 0:01:08.400 --> 0:01:14.440 to keep perpetrating for decades? Even more important, what happens 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:18.840 to the survivors for years afterward. While this is a 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:23.759 story of sexual assaults, abuse, and perpetration, it is frankly 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:28.280 also a straight up story of narcissistic abuse. This is 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:33.560 Lily's harrowing journey of surviving Bill Cosby, not just what happened, 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:37.600 but what has happened to her since and the reality 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:42.920 of her healing process. This podcast should not be used 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:47.960 as a substitute for medical or mental health advice. Individuals 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:53.080 are advised to seek independent medical advice, counseling, and or 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:58.680 therapy from a healthcare professional with respect to any medical condition, 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:04.640 mental health issue, or health inquiry, including matters discussed on 0:02:04.720 --> 0:02:11.840 this podcast. This episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering 0:02:11.960 --> 0:02:17.280 to some people. The views and opinions expressed are solely 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:22.119 those of the podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, 0:02:22.639 --> 0:02:26.519 and do not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:32.120 iHeartMedia or their employees. Thank you so much for coming 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:32.880 being here. 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:33.519 Thank you. 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:36.600 Here's where I'd like to begin. I truly believe that 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:40.239 one of the most difficult things about being a trauma 0:02:40.280 --> 0:02:43.280 survivor is that people want you to keep sharing the 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:47.079 story of the trauma. What I'd like to have happened 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:52.160 today is your story and your experience as a survivor. 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:56.600 This is about you and keeping that in mind. Where 0:02:56.600 --> 0:02:58.120 do you want to begin telling your story? 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:01.840 I think the content is a good Okay, it begins. 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:04.760 I want you to know I do feel safe, and 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:07.519 I do get invited to do a lot of interviews 0:03:07.520 --> 0:03:11.280 on this subject and I usually decline, but I feel 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:12.320 safe with you. Okay. 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:13.280 Well I appreciate that. 0:03:13.400 --> 0:03:17.440 So I guess there's a greater context that's cultural for me. 0:03:17.960 --> 0:03:26.239 I'm a Cuban born immigrant and my heritage is African, Caribbean, Chinese, 0:03:26.280 --> 0:03:30.480 and European. And of those first three cultures, you know, Black, Latin, 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:35.080 and Asian, it's really, as you know, against the status 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:41.480 quo to speak about sexual assault. Absolutely, yeah, because society, 0:03:41.800 --> 0:03:47.200 the media is constantly denigrating the image of men of color, 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:51.840 particularly black men, and so we're deeply invested in protecting Yeah, 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:57.560 that rightfully so. But unfortunately in my case with Bill Cosby, 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.000 where that played a personal role, yes, all that came 0:04:01.040 --> 0:04:04.320 to play, but it's not about race here. It's not 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:08.080 about protecting the black male image. It's about rape, and 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:13.120 rape crosses all sociocultural, all racial boundaries. I found that personally. 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:17.599 So that's the context from which I'm coming. That's really 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:25.919 difficult because unfortunately those Cosby fans and rape apologists who've 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:30.920 attacked me the most in public, sometimes in person with 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:36.520 raised fists, death threats, and rape threats have been black men. 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:39.320 And that's really painful. You know, I have six children 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:42.520 that I birthed in a ten year span, in five 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:47.680 of them are young black men. So that's really a 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:48.880 sad reality. 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:51.839 With that context, because one of the first places I 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:56.640 go when I hear that is not only is rape 0:04:56.720 --> 0:05:00.560 or sexual assault not allowable as a topic of discussion 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:03.920 for people who have your heritage, who have my heritage, 0:05:04.800 --> 0:05:09.000 women of color aren't believed. Can you talk a little 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:09.600 bit about that. 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:15.480 It's really like an added burden, very painful. One thing 0:05:15.480 --> 0:05:19.640 that Bill Cosby did for me personally was to make me. 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:24.040 I'm sorry, you take your time. 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:39.640 Both of my parents are mixed black people. Yeah, and 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:42.400 like a lot of Black Cubans, I grew up with 0:05:42.480 --> 0:05:49.400 a deep seated, learned racial self hatred that you're not black, 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:53.000 you're mulata. And I'd go to school when the kids 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:56.800 called me nigger, and I'd come home and tell my parents, 0:05:56.800 --> 0:05:59.719 and my mom would say, well, go tell them your mulatta, 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:05.480 and then they laugh at my face. My American. You know, classmates, dummy, 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:08.599 Mulata is a nigger. So I'd go back home to 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:11.320 my parents and I'd say, but they say, Mulata is 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:15.920 a nigger, and my mom would say, well maybe in America, 0:06:16.040 --> 0:06:19.560 but in Cuba it's better than a nigger. So I 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:23.680 grew up with that stigma, you know, that pain, not understanding. 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:26.920 And I loved my black heritage. I gravitated towards it. 0:06:27.000 --> 0:06:30.479 I knew I was black. My hair is naturally kinky. 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:33.400 And so when I met Bill Cosby, and he would 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:35.599 talk to me really academically because he knew that I 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:37.640 loved my black heritage. He knew that I was Cuban 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:40.000 and a Cuban immigrant. He knew that I identified as 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:44.400 being black and Latin, so he heralded that. So Bill 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:47.119 Cosby played a role in really making me feel proud 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:50.120 to be black, among so many other things that he 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.679 made me feel good about. Does that make any sense? 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.679 It makes absolute sense. I wanted to ask you, growing 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:59.560 up and battling within you, his battle around racial identity 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:04.440 with in you, how did that shape your identity, not 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:06.640 only as a child, but ultimately as a woman. I 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.800 want to understand that peace first and then because I 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:15.480 fully understand the profundity and the power of somebody seeing 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:16.240 that part of you. 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:16.480 Right. 0:07:16.560 --> 0:07:19.559 All we want, Lily, is to be seen right, right, 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.800 And he saw a part of you that you were 0:07:22.800 --> 0:07:23.760 told not to see. 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:24.400 That's right. 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:29.880 That is a revelation, right when somebody does that for us, 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:32.760 and we will feel drawn to that, and it will 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:35.360 almost create an accelerated sense of trust. 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:36.880 Yes it did. 0:07:38.000 --> 0:07:41.160 How do you think though grappling with that shaped you 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:44.480 as a human being to have had those conflicting and 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:48.120 actually brutalizing messages about race that you received. 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:52.480 Yeah, it's I guess what my therapist is called the 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:53.920 cognitive dissonance you. 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:59.960 Cognitive dissonance is the tension we experience when things are inconsistent. 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:04.000 For example, we love someone and they hurt us. At 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:07.480 those times, we will often justify or try to find 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:11.200 the good in a situation, for example, they didn't mean it, 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:16.000 or even maybe I remembered it wrong. It is painful 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:19.600 to recognize that someone we trust is harming us, and 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:23.480 cognitive dissonance means that we will make those puzzle pieces 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:26.120 fit even when it hurts us. 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:30.920 So whereas I'm born into a culture Afro Cuban culture. 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:35.120 We were immigrants living in Princeton Junction, New Jersey, trying 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:38.800 to assimilate and trying to hide our blackness. There was 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:42.320 all this shame right growing up. I mean like one 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:45.440 time my mom was braiding my hair and I was twelve. 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:47.560 I had no idea I had a natural afro because 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:50.280 she would always keep my hair braided. And my little 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:52.320 baby brother was crying. So she went to the room 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:54.720 and my hair was out in a big afro. The 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:57.440 doorbell rang and it was one of my blond neighbors 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:01.360 in Princeton Junction selling girls got cookies and opened the 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:06.440 door and she went wow. I was like what your hair. 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:08.880 I was like what, And I looked in the mirror 0:09:08.920 --> 0:09:11.720 and there's this gigantic afro. That's my natural hair, a 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:15.160 gigantic afro. She's like, your hair, it's so beautiful. I 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:18.200 was like, just you know, throwing my afro around. My 0:09:18.240 --> 0:09:22.000 mom came and she saw me. She said, cochina marana, 0:09:22.040 --> 0:09:25.840 which in Spanish made you dirty, little pig, slapped my 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:28.800 face really hard. I told you not to open the door. 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:32.440 Oh the shame that our white neighbors would know that 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:35.640 I really am an afro so that's where I'm coming 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:40.640 into a trauma that's really deeply embedded. Where Bill Cosby 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:44.199 saw my blackness and elevated and said it was good. 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:47.880 Yes you're Latin, and yes you're black, and you're beautiful, 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:50.560 You're great. I see. He was my daughter. And then 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:54.080 Bill Cosby was not unsimilar to my dad in appearance. 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:56.199 You know, my dad's a black man, Bill Cosby's black. 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:59.480 My dad wore glasses. Bill Cosby were glasses. My dad 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:01.720 had moles on his face. Bill Cosby had moles on 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:04.720 his face. You know. I had suffered some really serious, 0:10:04.760 --> 0:10:07.920 life threatening abuse from my dad in my childhood through 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:11.280 my early adulthood, and so I looked at Bill Cosby 0:10:11.760 --> 0:10:15.199 as a replacement father figure. My father changed the last 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:17.240 twenty five years of his life and he became a 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:21.120 very loving father, very remorseful for the abuse that he 0:10:21.160 --> 0:10:23.760 put me through when he was, you know, drunk. 0:10:24.240 --> 0:10:28.240 When we have these difficult relationships with parents growing up, 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:31.880 we do gravitate towards parental figures. 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:32.319 Right. 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:37.120 The challenge for you, though, was the parental figure figures 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:40.520 were also abusive. How did you first meet Bill Cosby? 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:45.560 I was acting at Cornell University wanted to be on 0:10:45.600 --> 0:10:47.720 The Cosby Show, you know, because I just it stood 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:49.760 for so much in America. 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:51.480 What did it stand for for you? 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:55.679 For me, it stood for excellence, black excellence. I mean, 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:58.360 that's an expression that's said a lot, but it stood 0:10:58.360 --> 0:11:02.080 for black excellence. Showed the world that black people are 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:05.360 not any different than white people, that we have hopes 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:11.720 and aspirations and high achievements and vulnerabilities and problems like dyslexia. 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.720 And to see a couple where there were two black 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:20.439 professionals raising this family of five children in New York City. 0:11:20.960 --> 0:11:23.120 When we moved to the United States, we moved to Brooklyn, 0:11:23.160 --> 0:11:25.959 New York, so we lived in a brownstone So that 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:28.880 was all very familiar to me, that New York City life. 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:32.600 And so it just meant hope, it meant greatness, it 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:36.640 meant advancement, but really that black excellence. And that's what 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:40.360 The Cosby Show represented for me. And so ended up 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:43.960 doing a silent bit in a season in the fall 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:47.240 of nineteen eighty eight with Betty Carter, oh the same. 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:51.240 It was her guest role on The Cosby Show. And 0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.960 what was interesting in retrospect is when I did that 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:56.520 little bit role, that She kept me in her dressing 0:11:56.600 --> 0:11:59.240 room the whole week, and that when Bill Cosby came 0:11:59.280 --> 0:12:03.400 into her room, she literally put her arm into my 0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:06.240 arm and held me really tight. I did not understand 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:08.760 then why she was really holding me tightly, but she 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.600 was treating me as if I were her granddaughter or 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:14.120 something like that. And Bill Cosby came into the room 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:18.480 multiple occasions, and we spoke at that time about jazz 0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:21.559 because she was a jazz singer, and about the influence 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:23.760 of Cuban jazz and New Orleans. Because you knew that 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:25.559 I was Cuban. I told him I was Cuban, and 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:29.080 it was just a really beautiful, again, intellectual talk about 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.240 jazz from a global perspective since I was Cuban. 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:34.600 So is that where you met him? 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:36.520 Actually the first time, my first time you met him, 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:37.199 it was twenty four. 0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:39.920 You're twenty four, okay. What's interesting to me is that 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:42.840 your draw to wanting to be on something like The 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:47.360 Cosby Show really came from a very thoughtful, intentional place. 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:51.599 So again, you were coming out of a top university. 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:56.040 You're clearly an academically gifted person. You were classically training 0:12:56.280 --> 0:12:59.599 as an actor, and through sheer force of Will. You're like, 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:01.400 I'm going to be on that show, and you were 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:03.920 on that show, and so he meets you in this 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:07.360 dressing room and it's there that he's having conversations with 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:12.239 you about your cubanness, and so he's getting information about you. 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:14.800 You just think it's a conversation, but there was a 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:17.880 very different process for him because this felt like intel gathering, 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:23.000 like information gathering, and yet simultaneously you were having an 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:27.440 incredibly I mean, it's a notable experience that this older woman, 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:30.760 as you said, in these communities, in this case the 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:34.760 black community, you don't talk about this. She was doing something. 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:37.280 You know that it was almost like, how do I 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:41.160 protect one of our children in this community? But couldn't 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:41.880 say it right. 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:44.160 But when Bill Cosby came into the room, I can 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.560 honestly say that I wasn't really like starstruck seeing him 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:51.120 because I was so just like basking in the comfort 0:13:51.240 --> 0:13:54.040 of being with Betty Carter like I was her granddaughter, 0:13:54.640 --> 0:13:56.840 and that was beautiful. But I do want to say 0:13:56.880 --> 0:14:00.680 that having had that bit part on that show that 0:14:00.880 --> 0:14:07.120 time and meeting the crew, it was predominantly black. You know, 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:11.880 I saw it for the first time black everything you know, 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:16.640 black makeup, black hair, black wardrobe, black stage designers, black 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.960 stage managers, black director. Some of the writers were black, 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.960 and it was so exciting to me. So I said, 0:14:22.960 --> 0:14:24.240 I want to be back on this show, but I 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:26.720 want to come back in a speaking role, in a 0:14:26.760 --> 0:14:30.800 principal role. So two years later, I saw an ad 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:33.880 in Backstage, which is the trade paper for actors, and 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:35.720 it said that they were looking for stand ins for 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:39.000 the Cosby Show. So I went and the line just 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:43.800 really wrapped around the whole block Kaufman Astoria Studios. And 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:46.960 when I finally got in, I had prepared a postcard 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:48.680 with my picture on it, and I wrote a little 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:50.600 note saying, thank you, mister Cosby. You know I was 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:53.800 on the show two years ago as a silent bit, 0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.360 but I really want a principal speaking role on your show. 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:59.760 And I gave it to him, and I believe same 0:14:59.840 --> 0:15:03.200 day when I got home, he called me. And so 0:15:03.280 --> 0:15:08.720 that summer he spent hours a week mentoring me. And 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:12.160 that's where the what did you call it, investigation into 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:12.640 the relief? 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:13.480 Intel gathering? 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.840 The intel? Yeah, who I mean, it was as if 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.840 he were a news reporter. And so the first few 0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.280 meetings he was just gathering information from me, and I 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:25.600 thought that he was just really genuinely interested in me. 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:27.800 So I would tell him everything, and he must have 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:31.000 asked me hundreds of questions, so he knew everything going in. 0:15:31.520 --> 0:15:33.520 He knew the abuse that I suffered as a child 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.560 and young adult in my home, the domestic violence. He 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:40.760 knew my feelings of worthlessness. He knew that as a 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:44.160 member of the Abyssinian Baptist Church and all these things, 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.760 and that I didn't drink. I didn't consume alcohol because 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:49.920 my father would abuse me when he was drunk. So 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:52.960 he knew that because I told him. But I mean 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:54.920 so many things. He knew that I was a visual artist. 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:57.320 On some occasions when he invited me to the mentoring 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:00.600 he asked me to bring my artwork, and I would 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:02.520 bring my artwork and we'd have discussions because he told 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:04.680 me that he was an art collector, so we'd have 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:08.160 discussions about my paintings. I also, in high school and 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:13.320 in college, I played clarinet in the classical band, in 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:17.000 flute and saxophone in the jazz band. So he encouraged 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:19.360 me to take it back up again. So he helped 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:21.440 me to find out where I could get flute lessons, 0:16:21.520 --> 0:16:24.480 and it was so exhilarating because my parents. My father 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:27.240 was also an academic. He was, you know, electrical engineer, 0:16:27.520 --> 0:16:32.520 math professor. My siblings are PhDs and so academics and 0:16:32.760 --> 0:16:37.320 art were like a very high vibration art and intellect family. 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:39.680 So it was really exciting to see another black man 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:42.840 like my dad who was a creative and an intellect. 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:44.520 It felt familiar. 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:48.520 Yeah, it felt familiar, but it also felt healthy. Yes, Lily, 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:51.840 I think that you know, the survivor's stories tend to 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:56.480 get very pathologized on the back, telling week vulnerable you 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:58.080 just wanted someone to pay attention to. 0:16:58.200 --> 0:16:59.240 That's not it at all. 0:16:59.440 --> 0:17:02.520 You came in in your full strength, fully possessed of 0:17:02.560 --> 0:17:05.280 your blackness, which you've been denied of for so long, 0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:09.160 wanting to explore that in a creative space. A mentoring 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:13.439 person is meeting you where you're at intellectually. That is 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:17.800 what is so insidious about what this person did to you, 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:31.200 is that they exploited your strengths. You're okay, take a minute. 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.239 You know it's so many years ago, but it's like 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:36.240 it was yesterday. 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:38.760 I know, I'm sure it is. I mean, I'm feeling 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:42.240 it here with you, and I just again so smart, 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:48.760 and that was being harnessed by someone and you didn't 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:51.480 know that at the time. You're going to going into 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:53.800 this as though it was a trusted interaction. 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:56.320 Back when it happened, you know, Like the betrayal is 0:17:56.359 --> 0:18:01.199 so deep. It happened in the early nineteen nineties, but 0:18:01.240 --> 0:18:04.639 then by nineteen ninety two, I was so traumatized by 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:06.440 the betrayal that I actually ended up in the psych 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:11.320 word from the trauma. And then I didn't understand, like 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:15.680 part of the pain was like, oh, my god, he 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:17.919 loved me as a daughter. How could he do this 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.560 to me? But he loved me, you know, And so 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:24.200 I couldn't understand how someone who had professed to love 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:26.480 me so much as his daughter. Oh, he used to say, 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:28.680 you're one of my kids, Bernard. You know, I love 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:31.000 you like a daughter. You're one of my kids. And 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:34.119 so I didn't understand that. And it wasn't until you know, 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.040 fast forward two decades later that I started to understand 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:40.800 he never loved me. It was fake. It was phony, 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:44.120 you know, And that has helped me to process better 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:46.800 the betrayal, you know, that it wasn't really love. 0:18:47.520 --> 0:18:50.000 We will be right back with this conversation. 0:18:57.320 --> 0:19:00.200 But I thought it was paternal love. 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.520 Of you were being told it was paternal love. It 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:08.200 felt like paternal love. And I'm not convinced this person 0:19:08.320 --> 0:19:11.600 is capable of love. I'm sorry. People say no, they 0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:14.720 might love in parts of their lives. Maybe I'm hardcore 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:18.080 on this one, but no, that capacity, there is no 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:21.400 love there. And it was using the word doesn't make 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:26.040 it so. Was your mentoring all in person or all 0:19:26.080 --> 0:19:26.520 in person? 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:29.760 Yes? I thought then that he was obsessed with me 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.240 because he would call me so frequently, and several times 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:34.920 a week. He would have me come to his brownstone 0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:38.360 in Manhattan where he lived, to mentor me and put 0:19:38.400 --> 0:19:41.760 me through these exercises that were theatrical exercises. He also 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:43.800 had me come to this Cosby Show studios, and he 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:46.439 would mentor me at the Cosby Show as well. He 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.560 would mention me in his dressing room studio the Cosby Show. 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:54.760 He introduced me very early on to the entire crew 0:19:55.320 --> 0:19:59.600 as someone who is a studied actor, you know, who's academic, 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:02.879 who's performing off Broadway, as someone who for whom he 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:07.480 was going to write a role, a main character, and 0:20:07.560 --> 0:20:11.359 so I very quickly had meetings with the producers, with 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:15.520 the writers, with the directors, and that felt like also 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:18.760 very empowering. He gave me free reign of the studios 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:21.159 because he said that that when I act on the 0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:24.040 Cosby Show, I had a huge responsibility to uphold because 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:26.560 it's the number one show in the world. And then 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.480 he also of course invited my family to come to 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:32.199 the studios with me. So he invited my dad, He 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:35.159 met my dad, and he invited my brother, my sister, 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:38.719 her boyfriend at the time, my cousin's friends. You know, 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:41.960 it made it all the more difficult that when he 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:44.879 did drug and sexually assaulted me, it made it the 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:47.120 more difficult for me to then tell my family who 0:20:47.200 --> 0:20:50.120 met him and to whom he was really nice to them, 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:50.560 you know, and. 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:53.440 He was a big name in the culture. I think 0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:57.480 that we can't underplay this is that that was a 0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:00.320 nefarious move no matter what, right because in essay, by 0:21:00.320 --> 0:21:03.160 bringing your family into the fray, they get to meet 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:06.679 this sort of cultural icon that was all with the 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:09.280 goal of isolating you, because now you've lost a source 0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:12.120 of support. Otherwise, it was still going to be very 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:14.800 difficult because he was so iconic. But then by adding 0:21:14.800 --> 0:21:16.960 that other layer of look, I'm going to bring you in, 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:19.320 I'm going to give you the VIP treatment. They're getting 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:23.000 to meet this person. It's creating these bonds and then 0:21:23.080 --> 0:21:27.640 fostering more isolation for you. It feels so calculated and 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:32.720 so intentional over such a protracted period of time. When 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:36.240 your family got invited at the time, were you suspecting 0:21:36.280 --> 0:21:37.440 anything stranger? 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:42.119 No, no, no. My dad, being a black Latin immigrant, 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:46.719 to see another black man in such a powerful position 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:48.480 meant so much to my dad. So when my dad 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:50.920 met Bill Cosby on the set, I'd never seen my 0:21:51.000 --> 0:21:54.040 dad look at somebody like that with so much admiration 0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:57.000 and gratitude. And Bill Cosby was telling my dad, you 0:21:57.040 --> 0:21:59.320 know how wonderful your daughter is. I'm going to help 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:02.399 her become a star because she's such a great actor 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:05.480 and she works hard. He called my mom on the phone. 0:22:05.560 --> 0:22:07.920 My parents were living in Spain, and so he called 0:22:07.920 --> 0:22:10.240 my mom in Spain and assured my mother that he 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:12.600 would take care of me as if he were my father. 0:22:13.119 --> 0:22:15.600 So even though my parents were living far away in Spain, 0:22:15.720 --> 0:22:18.639 you know, they felt so good that he was taking 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:19.119 care of me. 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:22.080 They must have been so proud of you. I mean, 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:26.000 what did it feel like to watch your family's pride 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:30.199 in you, watching your career blossoming on such a world 0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:31.439 stage at that time. 0:22:31.840 --> 0:22:35.560 Yeah, I guess it meant a lot. Because of the 0:22:35.600 --> 0:22:37.800 abuse I suffered as a child, I was always looking 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:41.200 for their approval and nothing that I could do, whether 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:43.920 it was going to an Ivy League college, or being 0:22:43.960 --> 0:22:49.199 first chair clarinet or first chair saxophone or being a 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:51.560 you know, award winning USGF gymnast, all of which I 0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:55.480 was nothing. None of that would make my parents treat 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:58.840 me with the love and respect that I merited, as 0:22:58.840 --> 0:23:02.399 any child would. So that achievement was like, look, Mommy 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:05.000 and Poppy, look I'm worthy. You know I'm worthy. My 0:23:05.040 --> 0:23:08.040 acting career is not just a whim a hobby, so 0:23:08.080 --> 0:23:10.040 I'm really serious about it. And look at this great 0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:14.280