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Speaker 1: Hi, everybody. Since self improvement is kind of in the

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Speaker 1: air this time of year, I thought I would choose

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Speaker 1: our twenty twenty two episode on mindfulness. We cover its origins,

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Speaker 1: how it became a thing in the West, and the

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Speaker 1: upsides and yes, drawbacks. I hope it changes your life

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Speaker 1: for the better. Enjoy.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 1: Chuck and Jerry's here ish and this is stuff you

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Speaker 1: should know Ish. This is full on stuff you should know.

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Speaker 3: Charles, remember that point. I feel like it was about.

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Speaker 2: Ten eight to ten years ago where everyone was just

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Speaker 2: saying ish on the end of things instead of saying, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, finding the real word that they were looking.

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Speaker 1: For, so so like an approximation of the word or

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Speaker 1: of the thing they were describing. So like I'm say forty.

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Speaker 2: Ish, No, not even that, like when there's like a

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Speaker 2: real word that could be used and they would just

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Speaker 2: throw ish on another word.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what you're talking about.

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Speaker 3: No, yeah, it was it was the thing it swept

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Speaker 3: the nation.

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Speaker 1: When was it?

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Speaker 3: Or maybe I'm thinking of the macarena.

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Speaker 1: That's what you're thinking, okay, all right, man really did

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Speaker 1: sweep the nation? Remember that who let the dogs out?

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Speaker 1: It was like a.

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Speaker 3: One dogs out? Did they ever find that out?

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Speaker 1: No? I think it was a rhetorical question.

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Speaker 3: Ish.

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Speaker 1: It's the kind of rhetorical question you could ask yourself,

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Speaker 1: Chuck while you're meditating. Yeah, my first, thanks, thanks, But

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Speaker 1: I'm going to step all over the segway because before

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Speaker 1: we get started, Chuck, I want to do, if you'll

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Speaker 1: allow me, another shout out for my little niece, Mila's movie,

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Speaker 1: big time movie called No Exit that's coming out as

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Speaker 1: far as when this episode drops tomorrow, so February twenty four,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. No matter when you hear this, just

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Speaker 1: immediately go on to Hulu subscribe it you haven't yet,

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Speaker 1: and check out my niece Mela in No Exit because

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Speaker 1: she is me the trailer amazing. What'd you think?

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Speaker 2: It looks like a taut thriller. She looks fantastic from

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Speaker 2: what you can tell from a trailer. I you just

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Speaker 2: saved all the bad parts for the movie.

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Speaker 1: I don't think they did. I was reading an interview

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Speaker 1: with the director and he was saying like she was

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Speaker 1: doing such an amazing job of being terrified and freaked

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Speaker 1: out and everything that, like after in between takes, like

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Speaker 1: the other cast, Memers would be like are you okay?

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Speaker 1: And she'd be like, yeah, are you okay? And I'm

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Speaker 1: acting right yeah exactly. She's like, it's acting like John Lovegrad. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So on Hulu, No Exit, February twenty fifth, my niece

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Speaker 1: Mela just kills it.

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Speaker 3: There you go, can't wait.

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Speaker 1: Thanks again for that, So let's get started. Thank you

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Speaker 1: for not passing judgment on that. Either way.

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Speaker 2: You're resegueing, because we're trys passing judgment, it means I'm

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Speaker 2: not being mindful because a big part of mindfulness you

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Speaker 2: just did not judge.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So that's like, this is one of those ones,

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Speaker 1: you know, those episodes where we just start talking about

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Speaker 1: the thing without defining it. This is not gonna be

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Speaker 1: one of those episodes because I think it would be

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Speaker 1: kind of rough otherwise, you know.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I guess if you're gonna define mindfulness, you

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Speaker 2: need to kind of go back in time. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I guess we could hop in the way back machine.

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Speaker 1: We haven't done that way it's been a while.

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Speaker 2: Let's pull the old cover off. It's quite dusty in

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Speaker 2: here and a little bit of mildew, A little mildew.

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Speaker 2: There's some old crystals boxes. Those are yours?

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Speaker 1: Remember you had them accidentally delivered to your house?

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Speaker 3: Right, and then we went back to the Old West

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Speaker 3: to celebrate.

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Speaker 1: You're thinking of back to the future. Three?

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Speaker 3: Oh right, right? Right?

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Speaker 1: I called Mary steam Virgin if I get to play her,

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Speaker 1: not date her or anything.

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Speaker 3: Oh date may steam Virgin. A big crush on.

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Speaker 1: Her, isn't that really? That's a ted Danson's old squeeze, right.

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Speaker 3: It's his current squeeze. I'm not going to fight any before.

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Speaker 1: Are they still together? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I think so.

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Speaker 1: Gosh, they've been together for a while.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, good couple.

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Speaker 1: Okay, great, good stuff.

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Speaker 2: So who knew we were gonna be talking about ted

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Speaker 2: Danson at the beginning of mindfulness?

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Speaker 1: Richard Gear, But ted Danson's a big surprise.

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Speaker 2: If we get in the way back machine and go

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Speaker 2: back uh in time to sort of the beginning of Buddhism,

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Speaker 2: you'd have to look at the the the language polly

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Speaker 2: and the word sati. Polly is p a l i,

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Speaker 2: Sati is s a t i. There are a lot

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Speaker 2: of different words for mindfulness, but the one that we

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Speaker 2: can kind of identify with It's kind of been used

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Speaker 2: most from Polly, which is a Middle Indo Aryan liturgical

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Speaker 2: language from the early branches of Buddhism.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to take in the reason that Polly

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Speaker 1: is so important is because they say that it was

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Speaker 1: the language of the Buddha, and at the very least

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Speaker 1: it was the first language that the Buddha's words which

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Speaker 1: have been passed down orally were written down in. So

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Speaker 1: it's like legit old school Buddhist thinking and teachings. And

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Speaker 1: one of the basic parts of that is, like you said, sati,

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Speaker 1: which has been translated to mindfulness, but it was translated

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Speaker 1: by a British colonial administrator, wasn't it.

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Speaker 2: That's right, And it kind of more accurately is translated

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Speaker 2: as memory of the present, which I think is a

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Speaker 2: really kind of a cool way to look at mindfulness.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, it really kind of reveals what's going on. Especially

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Speaker 1: once you kind of learned a little more about it,

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Speaker 1: you're like, that actually works about as perfectly as can be.

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Speaker 1: But it got translated into the word mindfulness, sati into

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Speaker 1: mindfulness by a British colonial administrator in Ceylon which is

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Speaker 1: now Sri Lanka. Back in the eighteen eighties, so as

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Speaker 1: some British guy who said sati means mindfulness and actually

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Speaker 1: kind of gave it to us today, although there was

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Speaker 1: a long period where it had been forgotten. But I

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Speaker 1: think you can't really talk about mindfulness, even though it's

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Speaker 1: changed so dramatically, especially in the last decade or so,

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Speaker 1: without kind of describing what it was originally meant to describe,

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Speaker 1: or what it still describes if you're a practicing Buddhist,

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Speaker 1: and that is that you are not only like paying

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Speaker 1: attention to the moment and like experiencing this moment without

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Speaker 1: letting your thoughts wander to the past or the future

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Speaker 1: or anything like that, but that whatever you're experiencing in

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Speaker 1: the moment, no matter what it is, you're experiencing with equanimity,

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Speaker 1: which means that you're not passing judgment on it, good

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Speaker 1: or bad or anything else. It just is And it

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Speaker 1: sounds easy to describe, but if you've ever tried it,

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Speaker 1: it's one of the hardest things a human being can

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Speaker 1: ever set out to do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's very very natural for

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Speaker 2: a human to seek out and contemplate and think about

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Speaker 2: the things that feel good and please them and to

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Speaker 2: try and stuff down and get rid of and avoid

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Speaker 2: things that either hurt literally hurt or emotionally hurt, or

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Speaker 2: things that are painful or unpleasant. And boy, see, that

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Speaker 2: is a tough thing to overcome, my friend. Just the

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Speaker 2: condition of being human makes that very difficult.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, and you just nailed it on the head,

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Speaker 1: not once, but twice, Chuck when you said that it's

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Speaker 1: a very human condition. And part of sati. The point

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Speaker 1: of sati as far as like Buddhists are concerned, is

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Speaker 1: that it's a step that you take on the path

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Speaker 1: to enlightenment to free yourself from the cycle of life

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Speaker 1: and death and rebirth and to become like a truly

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Speaker 1: enlightened being that's freed from all of that. And so

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Speaker 1: you have to free yourself from that human condition, and

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Speaker 1: a big part of that is to free yourself from

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Speaker 1: yearning from wanting. Because yearning and wanting or being repelled

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Speaker 1: by something and wanting to get away from it, there

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Speaker 1: are two sides of the same coin as far as

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Speaker 1: sati is concerned, which is you are wishing that something

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Speaker 1: is different or was different than it actually is. And

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Speaker 1: then that's the basis of suffering. And suffering is the

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Speaker 1: thing that keeps you in that cycle of life and

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Speaker 1: death and rebirth. So meditating to become mindful and non

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Speaker 1: judgmental about your present experience is one step toward relieving

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Speaker 1: yourself with suffering and then freeing yourself from that shackle

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Speaker 1: of being born and reborn and reborn again.

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Speaker 2: Well, you and my friend have just spoken about the

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Speaker 2: noble truths in part because craving is the cause of

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Speaker 2: suffering is the second noble truth, and to cease that

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Speaker 2: craving will bring about the ceasing of that suffering, which

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Speaker 2: is the third noble truth. And basically, experiencing the moment

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Speaker 2: without and everything about the moment without judgment is sort

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Speaker 2: of the goal. And you know, for modern you know,

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Speaker 2: we're going to talk a lot about sort of the

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Speaker 2: beginnings of mindfulness and kind of how it's become kind

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Speaker 2: of a hip thing to do here in the United

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Speaker 2: States starting in about the nineteen seventies and on especially today.

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Speaker 2: But we're kind of talking in American modern terms about

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Speaker 2: stress and de stressing. And the Buddhists have a term

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Speaker 2: for that, which is duka d u kk h a,

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Speaker 2: and that is, you know, again, to avoid or destroy

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Speaker 2: something that we don't like, and what we usually don't

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Speaker 2: like is something that's going to put a stress on.

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Speaker 1: Us, right exactly, And they're saying, like, dude, this is

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Speaker 1: part of the point of life. This really amazing book

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Speaker 1: by Tick not Han right now rereading it. Actually, it's

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Speaker 1: one of those ones you just kind of go back

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Speaker 1: and reread, very like easy slim volume. It's called No Mud,

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Speaker 1: No Lotus, and it basically says like, without suffering, you

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Speaker 1: can't have happiness and vice versa. Pretty basic stuff, but

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Speaker 1: like he really gets into explaining how to confront suffering

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Speaker 1: and understand that it's just part of life. And that's

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Speaker 1: a huge part of the Buddhist approach to mindfulness. It's

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Speaker 1: not to get away from suffering. It's to recognize it

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Speaker 1: as it is and also simultaneously not make a bigger

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Speaker 1: deal out of it than it is, because suffering is enough.

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Speaker 1: It's bad enough as it is. But another part of

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Speaker 1: the human condition is to make it way worse by

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Speaker 1: anticipating it, worrying about it, like focusing on it after

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Speaker 1: it happens. There's a lot of stuff we do to

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Speaker 1: our own suffering that explodes it, and part of mindfulness

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Speaker 1: training is to is to stop doing that as well too.

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Speaker 2: You ain't kidding. And the lack of judgment is a big,

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Speaker 2: big part of all of this. And we're going to

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Speaker 2: talk quite a bit here and there about John cabot Zen,

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Speaker 2: who is as easy, far and away the sort of

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Speaker 2: leader of the modern American mindfulness movement in a lot

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Speaker 2: of different ways, and we'll get to him in more

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Speaker 2: detail later, but he says that awareness that arises through

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Speaker 2: paying attention on purpose, and that's another big part of it.

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Speaker 3: It's a very purposeful practice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but not meditation, which we'll get to that as well,

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Speaker 2: because meditation is a true physical practice that you in

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Speaker 2: mental practice, whereas mindfulness is more of a state of

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Speaker 2: being that you're trying to get to, right. But he

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Speaker 2: says on purpose in the present moment and non judgment only,

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Speaker 2: they always have to kind of hammer home the lack

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Speaker 2: of judgment being a key part.

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Speaker 1: Right exactly. And he's a proponent in kind of one

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Speaker 1: of the founders of what you can refer to as

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Speaker 1: secular mindfulness, which is this current incarnation of mindfulness that's

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Speaker 1: sweeping the West. It's like you said, hip that's been

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Speaker 1: kind of like removed deliberately, as we'll see, removed from

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Speaker 1: its Buddhist roots and Buddhist contexts to make it more

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Speaker 1: palatable and scientific seeming. Yeah, secular, secular.

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Speaker 2: Strip it of all the religion and maybe we can

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Speaker 2: sell it to Americans exactly and then that.

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Speaker 1: But the yeah, the upshot of all this, though, Chuck,

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Speaker 1: is that no matter who you are, where you're coming from,

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Speaker 1: if you're talking about mindfulness, you're talking about paying attention

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Speaker 1: to the present moment and doing the best you can

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Speaker 1: at not judging anything that's going on in that present

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Speaker 1: experience and just taking it on its face value and

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Speaker 1: engaging in it fully. That's mindfulness in a nutshell.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's not anything that the Buddhists had a

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Speaker 2: corner on. They just probably did it better because all

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Speaker 2: different kinds of religions throughout antiquity had you know, chanting

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Speaker 2: or some kind of mindfulness practice, maybe prayers or through

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Speaker 2: songs or dance. You know, that kind of thing has

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Speaker 2: been around as long as people have been practicing religion.

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Speaker 2: So the Buddhists did not invent it, but I think

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Speaker 2: they got it fairly right.

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Speaker 1: So let's talk a little more about how we got

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Speaker 1: here today. Historically speaking after a break. What do you

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Speaker 1: think about that?

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Speaker 3: It sounds great. I'm gonna breathe in the meantime.

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Speaker 1: Hey, let me teach you something I've been using that

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Speaker 1: tik not Han taught me, not personally but through his

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Speaker 1: writing in a book that was published that I purchased

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Speaker 1: with MONI.

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Speaker 3: Smash your hand with a hammer.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he said, try to focus on anything else. Chump.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: There's a bunch of different mantras you can say, and

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Speaker 1: I don't not even sure that's the right word, but

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Speaker 1: one that I keep using is And it's just striking

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Speaker 1: what taking a breath and deliberately focusing on that breath,

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Speaker 1: just breathing in once and breathing out once can do

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Speaker 1: to like just suck you right out of wherever your

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Speaker 1: mind is in the past or the future. It's it's

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Speaker 1: really striking how it can do that. But his was

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Speaker 1: it's a breathing in I noticed that I'm alive and

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Speaker 1: then breathing out. I'm happy to be alive, and just

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Speaker 1: doing it at once like immediately brings me back into

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Speaker 1: the present moment. It's really cool. I like it. It's

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Speaker 1: all very new for me, but I think it's it's

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Speaker 1: pretty cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of value there. And you know

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Speaker 2: you can like practice something like this and those breathing techniques.

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Speaker 2: It's not exclusive to mindfulness or meditation or Buddhism. I

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Speaker 2: you know, that's a great technique if you have kids.

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Speaker 3: I found that.

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Speaker 2: You know, if my daughter is having a bad time,

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Speaker 2: just kind of get her to slow down and take

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Speaker 2: a couple of good deep breaths.

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Speaker 3: Always a good thing to do. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And Emily, who you know, someone who has a lot

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Speaker 2: of anxieties in her life as a struggling small business owner.

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Speaker 2: We will do this thing where we have hug breathing,

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Speaker 2: where I will go up to her and we will

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Speaker 2: have a good tight bear hug embrace and will breathe

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Speaker 2: in together, and it sort of like doubles the power

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Speaker 2: of it.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that's neat, Chuck, Is that your own? Did you

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Speaker 1: come up with that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I mean I'm sure, I mean I didn't get it

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Speaker 2: from anywhere, but I'm sure I didn't invent that.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like a Viking mindfulness.

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Speaker 3: Like Hell's Angels.

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Speaker 1: Sure, Yeah, that's the Hell's Angels technique you came up with.

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Speaker 1: You can call it whatever you want. It's your invention.

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Speaker 1: It's a good one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's something about breathing together that close physically. It's

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Speaker 2: pretty powerful.

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Speaker 1: So if you went back a few hundred years, a

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Speaker 1: couple hundred years even, and you spoke to any Buddhists

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Speaker 1: around the world and said, hey, how often do you

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Speaker 1: do mindfulness meditation? They would look at you like they

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Speaker 1: had no idea what you were talking about. And if

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Speaker 1: you said, you know, sati, they'd say, oh, that's not

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Speaker 1: for us, that's for like the monks and the nuns

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Speaker 1: up in the caves in the mountains, Like, we don't

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Speaker 1: do that kind of stuff where we're super Buddhists. We

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Speaker 1: care about morality and we worship local deities and all

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Speaker 1: that stuff. But that's that's kind of advanced. That's more

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Speaker 1: than the average Buddhist does. And it wasn't until I

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Speaker 1: think the late nineteenth century in Burma that that was

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Speaker 1: finally kind of broken up and meditation and mindfulness together

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Speaker 1: were kind of introduced for the first time to like

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Speaker 1: lay Buddhists, like just the normal, everyday, average Buddhists living

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Speaker 1: their life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this is pretty cool, Like, I know, we love

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Speaker 2: it when we can kind of pinpoint when things happen

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Speaker 2: or when things change, and this is one of them.

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Speaker 2: On November twenty eighth and eighteen eighty five, this is

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Speaker 2: when the British Imperial Army conquered Burma and said, King,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna mispronounce some of these Thibal Maybe I think

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Speaker 2: that's right, you're out of here. And that king was

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Speaker 2: promoting mindfulness and promoting Buddhist institutions throughout the nation. The Brits,

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Speaker 2: of course, said now we're not going to.

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Speaker 3: Really do that.

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Speaker 2: So it fell to the lay people to get organized,

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Speaker 2: to find new places to meet, to find their own

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Speaker 2: you know, gathering grounds, and a lot of times these

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Speaker 2: were monasteries and it would go through monks, but they

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Speaker 2: would it basically went to them to kind of figure

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Speaker 2: it out because it wasn't I don't want to say

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Speaker 2: state sponsored, but it kind of state sponsored.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or state supported or something like that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. But so rather than being like, oh, well, I

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Speaker 1: don't know who, I guess we're not Buddhists anymore, they

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Speaker 1: took it by the horns and like they did something

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Speaker 1: with it. But one of the outcroppings of that was

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Speaker 1: that like these monks who used to just go meditate

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Speaker 1: out in the like in the mountains or the hills

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Speaker 1: or in the woods. Now had audiences of like everyday

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Speaker 1: people who were practicing Buddhists that they were teaching this

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Speaker 1: stuff too, And it was it was one of these guys,

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Speaker 1: Letty Sayadao, who was a Buddhist monk, who said, you

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Speaker 1: know what, this isn't just for us, this is for everybody.

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Speaker 1: And closely in Letty Sayadow's footsteps came Minga and Sayao

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Speaker 1: s a yaw say yao. I think that's right, and

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Speaker 1: that monk was the first one to actually teach mindfulness

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Speaker 1: and meditation to regular people, I think around nineteen eleven.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's cool stuff.

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Speaker 2: Like I love the idea that Letty Sayadal kind of

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Speaker 2: put forth, which was you don't have to go to

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Speaker 2: a monastery, even like we've set these up for you

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Speaker 2: and you can.

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Speaker 3: You don't have to retreat to a cave.

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Speaker 2: You don't have to you don't even have to go

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Speaker 2: into a deep meditative state or anything like. Just momentary

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Speaker 2: bits of mindfulness are very helpful, right, and that's a

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Speaker 2: good way to reach each regular lay people. And I

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Speaker 2: think through practice is when Sayel came along and said, hey,

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Speaker 2: that all sounds great, and buddy, I'm going to teach

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Speaker 2: it right.

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Speaker 1: So the people in what is now Miamar are the

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Speaker 1: ones who kind of broke out, broke mindfulness of meditation

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Speaker 1: out of its little slumber sure cage or something like that,

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Speaker 1: and democratized it a little bit. But it was as

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Speaker 1: far as the people in the West are concerned, it

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Speaker 1: was the Japanese in their development of Zen Buddhism that

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Speaker 1: we have to thank because this is you can pretty

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Speaker 1: much trace a direct line between the mindfulness and the

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Speaker 1: meditation and the approach to Buddhism in the West today

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Speaker 1: back to the twentieth century Japan and specifically a guy

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Speaker 1: named die Setsu Tei Taro dt Suzuki. So dt Suzuki

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Speaker 1: was kind of a what's called a Buddhist modernist thinker

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Speaker 1: who said, there's different things we can do with this,

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Speaker 1: but let's approach us a little more rationally, a little

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Speaker 1: less dogmatically, and open it up to people like our

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Speaker 1: friends and what's soon to be me and mar and

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Speaker 1: not only that, let's start relating to the West a

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Speaker 1: little more. And dt Suzuki actually kind of carried this message,

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Speaker 1: this idea of Zen Buddhism with him over to America

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Speaker 1: in Europe and it just started to catch on like wildfire.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I think it's really interesting too that it was another

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Speaker 2: act of war that led to you know, that helped

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Speaker 2: give rise to someone like Suzuki, just like when the

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Speaker 2: Brits overthrow Burma. When the US Navy attacked Tokyo Harbor

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Speaker 2: in eighteen fifty three, though was you know, basically Japan

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Speaker 2: was like, you know, we got we got to start

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Speaker 2: relating to the West a little bit more and sort

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Speaker 2: of modernize, and this was known as the Meiji Restoration.

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Speaker 2: And part of that was saying, hey, Shinto is going

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Speaker 2: to be our religion, our main religion, and not Buddhism,

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Speaker 2: which led the Buddhists to say, hey, maybe we should

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Speaker 2: modernize our religion as well, to you know, so we

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Speaker 2: don't get left by the wayside, and that gave rise

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Speaker 2: to someone like DT.

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Speaker 1: Suzuki, Right. So it was from that modernization that Buddhist

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Speaker 1: modernism came about, and it's basically what you would recognize

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Speaker 1: as Buddhism today, like very thoughtful, very interior dwelling, the

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Speaker 1: idea that the universe is all connected. All these were

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Speaker 1: like Buddhist thoughts before, but it was it was Buddhism

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Speaker 1: allowing itself to be influenced by Modernism and by other

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Speaker 1: groups like the Romantics and the Transcendentalists, right.

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Speaker 2: So they jumped on a big time. It was pretty

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Speaker 2: It was like a confluence of perfect timing as far

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Speaker 2: as coming to the United States and like the counterculture

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Speaker 2: ready for this.

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Speaker 1: But in a weird way, it was like the United States,

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Speaker 1: unbeknownst to the counterculture Beats and then later the Hippies,

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Speaker 1: that their predecessors, like the Transcendentalists, had pre influenced what

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Speaker 1: was coming back to them. So it was already in

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Speaker 1: a very palatable form for Americans who were open to

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Speaker 1: the idea of like mind expansion and taking acid and

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Speaker 1: you know, and meditating and were just open to the

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Speaker 1: ideas of other cultures of becoming like more in tune

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Speaker 1: with the universe. It was they were just waiting for it,

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Speaker 1: and it came to them in the in the briefcase

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Speaker 1: I guess of DT Suzuki and it just kind of

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Speaker 1: took off from there. So the idea everything we understand

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Speaker 1: about mindfulness and meditation you can trace back to like

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Speaker 1: DT Suzuki in those beats.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And there were three people in particular in the

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Speaker 2: seventies and sixties and seventies practicing this, Joseph Goldstein, Jack

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Speaker 2: Cornfield and Sharon Salzberg who were not together but they

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Speaker 2: studied separately meditation in Burma, and then the mid seventies

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Speaker 2: founded the Insight Meditation Society in Massachusetts, which became sort

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Speaker 2: of the center of the uh VI Pasana meditation movement

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Speaker 2: here in the United States. And they're they're still around,

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Speaker 2: they're still doing their thing.

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Speaker 1: Right, So it was from that same group. There was

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Speaker 1: actually a time where John cabot Z in the guy

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Speaker 1: we mentioned earlier.

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Speaker 3: Z I by the way, not that would be too

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Speaker 3: far on the nose.

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Speaker 2: Oh wait, what if his name was spelled z E

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Speaker 2: n Oh, I got.

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Speaker 1: You, boy. I was not the current experience very well,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Oh that's okay.

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Speaker 2: That'd be like a boxer being named boxer. Yeah, it

435
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Speaker 2: would be differently, right.

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Speaker 1: I was for some reason, I was going more toward

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Speaker 1: the cabernet Zen play on.

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Speaker 3: Well because you're eyes in there.

439
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 1: Yeah. So he's known as the godfather of modern mindfulness

440
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 1: according to The Guardian at least, which is a pretty

441
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: legit newspaper. And by the way, they thank you also

442
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 1: to Olivia for helping us out with this one. Chuck

443
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 1: one to wrangle very great, Josh, she did, she did.

444
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 1: But John cabot Zen was among those people Jack Cornfield,

445
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 1: great name, Sharon Salzburg, and Jason Joseph Goldstein. He actually

446
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 1: taught at their Insight Meditation Society, and he was a

447
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: big time practitioner of Zen Buddhism and he had he

448
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 1: was on like a I guess a meditation retreat and

449
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: he had a bit of insight well, I guess an

450
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,399
Speaker 1: epiphany is probably what you'd call it. That he was

451
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 1: meant to help apply Buddhist techniques to help people who

452
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 1: are in pain. He had either a microbiology or molecular

453
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,440
Speaker 1: biology degree and he ended up applying it to medicine

454
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 1: and figuring out how to join Buddhist practices and medicine

455
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: to help people in the seventies and it really started

456
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 1: to take off from there.

457
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 3: Yeah.

458
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 2: I mean, he sort of had the same idea as

459
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 2: previous cultures, which was, hey, if we want to and

460
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 2: not sell for money, but if we want to popularize this,

461
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 2: we should get a little bit away from the religion part,

462
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 2: the sort of hippie dippy New Age part, and he

463
00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 2: really wanted to start talking in concrete terms about things

464
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 2: that everyone worried about, which was stress, and like, if

465
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 2: you want to make your life less stressful, here's a

466
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 2: way to do it, and more on mindfulness and less

467
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 2: on meditation, which was still a tough sell to mainstream

468
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 2: America and still is today.

469
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, but it's gotten less and less. I

470
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 1: feel like he finally overcame the threshold that was, you know,

471
00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 1: keeping it back in the last like five ten years,

472
00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: and achieved what he was looking for. I mean, think

473
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 1: about mindfulness is everywhere today and it is almost totally

474
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,480
Speaker 1: divorced from any kind of religious connotations. It seems like

475
00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 1: a neuroscience tool more than anything, the way that it's

476
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: totally did in the West, and that was his goal.

477
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: He was trying to get it to the most people possible,

478
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 1: study it scientifically, and then apply it to help people.

479
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,919
Speaker 1: And specifically again, he was initially looking at how it

480
00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:17,119
Speaker 1: can help people with pain, and he came up with

481
00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 1: mindfulness based stress Reduction MBSR, which is still very much

482
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,719
Speaker 1: in use today. And then there was an offshoot too,

483
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: Chuck Mindfulness based cognitive therapy, and that takes CBT, which

484
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: is a proven type of talk therapy used extensively in

485
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: psychology and applies John cabot Zin's approach to mindfulness to it, right.

486
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think one of the big tenets here

487
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 2: is to interrupt automatic thoughts, right, And the automatic thoughts

488
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 2: that can lead to an automatic behavior. So the automatic

489
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:58,520
Speaker 2: thought might just be your propensity to feel that stress

490
00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 2: and reach for drink immediately and not even think like,

491
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:04,719
Speaker 2: oh boy, I need a drink because I'm stressed out

492
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,719
Speaker 2: and that'll help out. It becomes this automatic thing. And

493
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 2: he was all about and the practice of mindfulness is

494
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 2: all about disruption and disrupting that flow without judgment.

495
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, Because one of the big things in cognitive behavioral

496
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:21,480
Speaker 1: therapy is that you have a thought, your thought leads

497
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 1: to a feeling, and your feeling leads to a behavior.

498
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: And oftentimes it's, like you said, it's very destructive and

499
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: you don't even realize it's going on until your life

500
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,159
Speaker 1: is kind of falling apart or it's certainly not as

501
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 1: good as it could be. And it doesn't even have

502
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: to be a drink. It could be a donut, it

503
00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 1: could be yelling at a cashier at a grocery store,

504
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: like all sorts of different things, and you are totally

505
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: out of control of it. The idea behind this mindfulness,

506
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,880
Speaker 1: adding mindfulness to cognitive behavioral therapy is that you are

507
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: training yourself to detach yourself from all thoughts and emotions

508
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 1: so that you can evaluate them clearly, so that none

509
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: of them can jump out of nowhere pounce on you,

510
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: and the next thing you know, you've eaten a dozen

511
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 1: donuts and had six s gotches and you have no

512
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 1: idea why. You do have the idea why, and you

513
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,439
Speaker 1: probably haven't gotten to that point because you've stopped the

514
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,719
Speaker 1: whole process by recognizing it the moment it began ideally,

515
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 1: theoretically on paper. That's the purpose of using mindfulness to help,

516
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: especially with mental health.

517
00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a journalist named Robert Wright, and he kind

518
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: of put it in a way that I kind of like,

519
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,160
Speaker 2: which was to think of your thoughts and emotions as transient.

520
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 2: So it's not like that kind of goes back to

521
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 2: the no judgment thing. You can have these bad feelings

522
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 2: and bad emotions and bad tendencies, but if you allow,

523
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 2: if you allow them to just flow through you, they

524
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 2: become transient. They don't stick around the same sort of

525
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 2: ideas that you can't why worry about things that you

526
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:57,040
Speaker 2: can't control?

527
00:28:57,840 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 3: But not in.

528
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:03,479
Speaker 2: A an office poster kind of way, you know what

529
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 2: I mean. Sure it runs a bit deeper than that.

530
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 2: It's not like a Pollyanna thing.

531
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: No, And as a matter of fact, like if you

532
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: want to trace it all the way back to its

533
00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: original Buddhist roots, it's that like, we have very little,

534
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: if any control over life, and that recognizing that will

535
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: free us from all of our desires and the idea

536
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: that like we have to have things that we want

537
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: to hang on to. It like it just lets you

538
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: let things flow by and you can enjoy them and

539
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,719
Speaker 1: experience them as they come. Rather than hoping for the

540
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: next one, needing the next doughnut, or fearing the next loss.

541
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: You just experience life as it comes. It's kind of

542
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,080
Speaker 1: the point of that of understanding that everything is transient

543
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: and impermanent, including your own your own life, Like you're

544
00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: going to die one day. There's ultimately the big like

545
00:29:55,440 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: you know, like bingo number, Yeah, Like that's ultimate is

546
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 1: you're going to die. You you yourself are impermanent and

547
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: so understanding that through getting there through meditation. Daily meditative

548
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: practice is kind of the goal.

549
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting they found that it's even though

550
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 2: something like MBSR is more rooted in that sort of

551
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 2: neuroscience y thing and not spirituality or religion, they found

552
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 2: it's sort of a chicken in the egg deal where

553
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 2: once you do participate in MBSR, you may become more

554
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 2: spiritual as a result, even though you weren't going in.

555
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: But I think the reason why is because even if

556
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: these people don't know it, even if they're at a

557
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: corporate mindfulness retreat, they're engaging in a deeply spiritual practice.

558
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 1: That that it's they're kind of doing it wrong is

559
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: we'll see, But there's still it's still, you know, part

560
00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: of this very long established tradition that's that actually has

561
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: like legs. It's not it's not mumbo jumbo like. It

562
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: actually has pronounced effect on the human brain, the human psyche,

563
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: the outlook that we have on life. And so depending

564
00:31:07,640 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: on the context, you're doing it, and it can be

565
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: very useful, it can be harmful, or it can be

566
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: totally useless in some cases too. But it is a

567
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: spiritual act. So it makes sense that it would make

568
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: you more interested in spirituality.

569
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 2: Well, I say we take our second break, if that's good.

570
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,160
Speaker 2: And because we're stuff, you should know, we have to

571
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 2: talk about whether or not this works and if there

572
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 2: have been studies that tell us one way or the other.

573
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 3: So we'll get into that right after this. All right.

574
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 2: It's fun to sit around and talk about mindfulness, So fun,

575
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 2: and to just sort of zen out and lose ourselves,

576
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 2: become one with each other through these headphones.

577
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:13,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, man, you sound like Rory cochrane and days.

578
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 3: And confused, Marthan new Man.

579
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 1: What was his name?

580
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 3: Oh Slater?

581
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: Was he Slater? Maybe you give me drugs man, Yeah,

582
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: it's later. You're right, get some from your mother. Man.

583
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 3: It's funny.

584
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 2: I've seen him and he's been in a bunch of

585
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 2: stuff since then. It's always impossible to see him as

586
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 2: anyone other than Slater.

587
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: I mean, have you he was on CSI Miami. I

588
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: think for years and years and years.

589
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 3: You're just waiting for her whip out of Dubie.

590
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: Yes, and he's all clean cut and everything and just

591
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: still can't not see it. I totally agree with.

592
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 3: He's not fooling anybody, all right? So does this stuff work.

593
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 2: There have been plenty of studies, of course, and there

594
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 2: is a lot of evidence that mindfulness programs can help

595
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 2: people through emotional problems, through mental problems. They've done control

596
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: trials of MBSR programs and clinical settings and non clinical settings,

597
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 2: and they generally found that they do. And this is

598
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 2: self reported stuff obviously, but they reduce self reported anxiety, depression,

599
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: and stress and increase well being as opposed to people

600
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 2: who've got no treatment at all.

601
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yes, I mean it does seem to be effective.

602
00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: There's also, especially with self reporting, Chuck, that seems to

603
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 1: be like the big one that if you look at

604
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: studies where they're using self reporting, like it has the

605
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: most pronounced effect. Objective tests there does seem to register

606
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: some sort of effect like on the objective experience of

607
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: say like pain or something like that. But social psychology

608
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: has jumped all over this. It's like we're going to

609
00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: study this. And there's this one study from twenty twenty

610
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: one which I have to give a hat tip to

611
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 1: Umi because she turned this one up. But it was

612
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: a study of white people who some of whom received

613
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 1: mindfulness training and a control group who received sham mindfulness training,

614
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: which is hilarious, and the effect that it had on

615
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: their willingness to help black people that they saw who

616
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 1: they saw in need and not like you need, like

617
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: you know, homeless or something like that. Like they would

618
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: be they would be subjected to a test unwittingly where

619
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: they'd be in a room and like a black person

620
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: would come in and like drop their papers, and their

621
00:34:31,640 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: willingness to help that person pick up the papers, or

622
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: if a black person entered the room and they were

623
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: on crutches, their willingness to give up their seat. And

624
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,919
Speaker 1: apparently black people tend to help black people more, White

625
00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: people tend to help white people more, or spanning people

626
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 1: tend to help Hispanic people more. They people help their

627
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: in group more. But this mindfulness group actually kind of

628
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: crossed lines way more than was expected.

629
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,439
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I mean I think that kind of says

630
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 2: it all. You do help your in group more, But

631
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 2: the people that received the real mindfulness training were definitely

632
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 2: far and away more willing to step outside their end

633
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:09,319
Speaker 2: group and help someone of another race.

634
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know they're.

635
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: Going to be said for that, Yeah, And I mean

636
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: it was significant. Three times more is really significant statistically

637
00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,120
Speaker 1: speaking for a study and it seems like it was

638
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: a pretty good study. Like the fact that they had

639
00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 1: sham mindfulness training ruled out the possibility that the group

640
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 1: that got mindfulness training was behaving a certain way because

641
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 1: they they thought like that's what was going to be

642
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: the result of it, almost like a placebo effect. So

643
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: the group that received sham training thought they were getting

644
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 1: mindfulness training.

645
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 3: What they like?

646
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 1: They still that's what I want to know.

647
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 3: I would love to know what sham mindfulness is. Right.

648
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 1: It's like breathing, really concentrate on all the anger, really

649
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,200
Speaker 1: feel it.

650
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 2: They or they'd let them in like a lama's breathing

651
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: where they're like, I don't think that's right.

652
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: That doesn't feel right, started to float away.

653
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 2: It's really funny, And shout out to cal State San

654
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 2: Marcos and Professor Daniel Berry and I guess you.

655
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 3: Me for all that.

656
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, the trifecta, Yeah sure, what's a cal State

657
00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 1: San Marcos's mascot? Geez, I'm gonna bet five dollars on

658
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 1: the Lobos.

659
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 3: That sounds good.

660
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,920
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go with that, all right, Los Lobos even.

661
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's the the banless Lobos is their.

662
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: Mak and not coincidentally, they're halftime entertainment as well.

663
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 2: But we do need to say that there's another school

664
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,320
Speaker 2: of thought, and it's not a competing school of thought,

665
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 2: it's just a hey, be aware that it's not always

666
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 2: great for everyone. They there's this one article you sent

667
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 2: about people that experience trauma in their lives, that have

668
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 2: buried it and it sits in their body as unconscious

669
00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 2: trauma that mindfulness practices and meditation practices can dredge that

670
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 2: stuff up. Yeah, And so they found that when these

671
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,040
Speaker 2: people they're studying them and they're doing these mindfulness practice

672
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 2: they're experiencing like rage and anxiety, and it's like whoa, whoa, whoa.

673
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 2: This is the opposite of where we're supposed to be

674
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 2: edded here. And I think they had figured out in

675
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 2: a lot of these cases it's people that are uncovering

676
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 2: these bary traumas.

677
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, and here's where we reach like the first initial

678
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 1: part where the West has kind of screwed this up,

679
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 1: because it is unexpected when somebody in America goes to

680
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 1: a meditation retreat and tries to become more mindful and

681
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 1: they're confronted with trauma or they're confronted with rage or

682
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: self hatred or something like that, and they're not expecting it.

683
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 1: If you went and talked to like an actual like

684
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 1: Buddhist monk, they'd be like, well, somebody probably should have

685
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 1: told you that that's a real possibility, right that you're

686
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: not This isn't all. This isn't like you know, it's

687
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: like an acid trip. It's not always like flowers and sunshine.

688
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's like the darkest thing you'll ever be confronted with.

689
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,920
Speaker 1: Kind of thing, same thing. The good thing about mindfulness

690
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: meditation is that you can stop immediately, but it supposedly

691
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,080
Speaker 1: in some retreats, in some situations they're like, no, you

692
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: got to press through. You got to press through. And

693
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,280
Speaker 1: people are kind of enticed or forced into staying in

694
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 1: really uncomfortable trauma experiences way beyond their comfort zone. And

695
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: it can actually be damaging. And it's very rare from

696
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: what I can tell, for there be to like lasting harm,

697
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 1: but there are reports of people having to go to

698
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 1: therapy for years after having gone on basically a bad

699
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 1: trip at a meditation retreat for years years of therapy,

700
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 1: so it can happen. And I guess, like I think, Chuck,

701
00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 1: there's a twenty nineteen study that found like twenty to

702
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: twenty five percent of people who meditate reported experiencing unwanted effects, right,

703
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 1: like negative effects that they were not planning for. And

704
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 1: that's that's the big problem. There's no there's nowhere, very

705
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: little warnings about this stuff. It's all treated in a

706
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 1: very pollyannish naive manner, as if like you know, America

707
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 1: in Europe got its hands on unlike the the Secret

708
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 1: the Cube from Hell Raiser is just like, this is awesome,

709
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,879
Speaker 1: Let's figure out how to be more productive using this thing.

710
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: That's kind of what's going on.

711
00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:21,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think another thing that can happen is

712
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:25,799
Speaker 2: it can lead to a spiral of anxiety if you're

713
00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 2: not able to get to that place that you think

714
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 2: you should be getting to by practicing it. Yeah, So

715
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 2: it becomes like this cycle where you know you're thinking, like, well,

716
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 2: I'm practicing this meditation doesn't seem to be doing anything

717
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 2: for me. Why can I not even do this right?

718
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 2: And all of a sudden, that is building upon itself

719
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 2: and creating anxieties because you feel like you're supposed to

720
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 2: reach this sort of moment of like floating bliss that

721
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 2: is I mean that's really hard to maintain. Yes, yeah,

722
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,760
Speaker 2: I mean not maintained, but like even touch.

723
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 1: Even reach sure, and it's been packaged like that, it's

724
00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,919
Speaker 1: been marketed is something that you will just reach some flow,

725
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 1: he blissed with, And yeah, I can totally see being

726
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 1: stressed out because you don't reach it because it hasn't

727
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,840
Speaker 1: been explained to you even what you're doing. Right. So

728
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 1: there's it's a good little short read. It's called Mindfulness,

729
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: Meditation and Trauma, Proceed with caution. I found it on

730
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: good therapy dot org. And it doesn't say like, don't

731
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,240
Speaker 1: do this even if you know your trauma, don't meditate,

732
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: don't try to become mindful. It says some you know,

733
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: make sure you find like a good coach, a good guide,

734
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,000
Speaker 1: a good teacher who understands how to deal with trauma

735
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 1: and can prepare you for it and can pull you

736
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 1: back and be like, don't forget life's actually good. You're good,

737
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 1: and now let's try a little more and just kind of,

738
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 1: little by little expose yourself to it rather than like

739
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: you know, ripping your shirt off and standing in front

740
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 1: of like the baseball pitching machine.

741
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 2: Uh, there's when it comes to physical pain. That's a

742
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 2: pretty interesting area as far as the studies have been concerned,

743
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 2: Like the idea that can it out actually help reduce

744
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 2: physical pain or at least the subjective experience of pain.

745
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 2: And you know, in some studies, in some cases, the

746
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 2: people who practice meditation do report lower subjective experience of

747
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:13,839
Speaker 2: pain or what they call pain unpleasantness. So this might

748
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 2: be a little bit of a mind over matter, Like

749
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,360
Speaker 2: the actual pain is still there, but I've gotten my

750
00:41:19,480 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 2: mind to in such a place that the unpleasantness or

751
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 2: the anticipation of that unpleasantness isn't as great as it

752
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 2: would be if I weren't able to practice that mindfulness.

753
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, which ties very closely into a Buddhist tenet of

754
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 1: the first arrow of sufferings, which is where everyone has

755
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: to experience that. Let's say you're bitten by an ant.

756
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: It's not a very pleasant sensation, and everybody's going to

757
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 1: experience it roughly the same. But there's also a second

758
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 1: arrow where you can be worried about being bitten by

759
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,479
Speaker 1: an ant, and it makes the actually makes the first

760
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 1: arrow ten times worse, not just twice as bad, but

761
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: ten times worse. And the idea is that if you're mindful,

762
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 1: if you practice sati, you won't really experience the second arrow,

763
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 1: just the first arrow. And that's the best you can

764
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:06,800
Speaker 1: hope for in this life.

765
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 3: That's right, missage Troyusa.

766
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,479
Speaker 1: What that's from?

767
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 3: Uh?

768
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,520
Speaker 2: I always just crack up when every time I think of

769
00:42:16,560 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 2: an arrow hitting a human body, I only think of

770
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 2: Monty Python.

771
00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 3: When that guy takes the aero message Troyusa as he's dying.

772
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 2: There was one study, though, in twenty nineteen, a review

773
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:31,720
Speaker 2: of studies actually that found that NBSR can reduce severity

774
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:36,719
Speaker 2: of chronic pain or improve daily functioning and depression about

775
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 2: like associated with that pain, which is you know, that's

776
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,080
Speaker 2: there's something to be said for that, Like I don't

777
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 2: think it should only be looked at as some sort

778
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 2: of hippie dippy thing like if you have real physical pain,

779
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:50,760
Speaker 2: it could possibly help.

780
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: Yes, And yeah, for sure, I mean think that that's

781
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: kind of like one of the outcomes of it being

782
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:00,720
Speaker 1: exposed to westernization is that it's being studied. It's actually

783
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 1: holding up in studies.

784
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:06,359
Speaker 2: And boy is it being exposed Because if you work

785
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,280
Speaker 2: for a big corporation, if you especially work in Silicon Valley,

786
00:43:11,160 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 2: chances are there are mindfulness retreats, maybe mindfulness rooms in

787
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 2: the offices where they say, hey, we know we work

788
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 2: you to death, and it's not fair. Why don't we

789
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 2: set up this little room that used to be a

790
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 2: room for you know, for your kids to come to work,

791
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 2: but we don't let that happen anymore. Used to be

792
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 2: the nursery. But we'll put you in here and you

793
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:37,800
Speaker 2: can zen out and be cool. And here's one of

794
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 2: the criticisms. As long as you come back and you

795
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 2: get all that work done, we think it's a great

796
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 2: tool for you.

797
00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 1: Right exactly. And not just corporations, but the military is

798
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:52,399
Speaker 1: using mindfulness schools. Little kids are being taught mindfulness and

799
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: to meditate prisons, and there's an enormous amount of like

800
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: out just out there in the culture. It's gotten really popular.

801
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:06,440
Speaker 1: I guess in twenty twelve, just over four percent of

802
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:10,760
Speaker 1: Americans meditated. Five years later it was up to fourteen percent.

803
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 1: That's a pretty big increase in just five years, and

804
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 1: I would propose it's probably more than that now in

805
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two. So it's everywhere. But it's also really

806
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,520
Speaker 1: kind of lost its way, I guess once it hit

807
00:44:27,560 --> 00:44:33,640
Speaker 1: America and corporate America in particular, mindfulness kind of got perverted,

808
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 1: I think, is a way you could put it.

809
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:39,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that critique is really valid. It's great

810
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,839
Speaker 2: that a company might take mindfulness and the consideration as

811
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 2: something beneficial for their employees, but to ignore the root cause,

812
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:50,239
Speaker 2: which is you're working too many hours a week and

813
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 2: you're overworked and you can't possibly get done what you

814
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:55,680
Speaker 2: should get done, and that's where this anxiety is rooted.

815
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 2: Here's a mindfulness room so you can help correct all that. Like,

816
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 2: it totally puts the onus on the employee to sort

817
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 2: of self adjust to what's probably way too much work,

818
00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 2: instead of saying, hey, maybe people wouldn't be in this

819
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 2: position to begin with if they didn't have to work

820
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 2: sixty hours in a.

821
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: Week, right, And the same thing goes for social movements

822
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: as well. Like some people say, hey, you know how

823
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 1: like a lot of us are mentally ill these days.

824
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: That's because society is screwed up. So rather than putting

825
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:29,800
Speaker 1: the onus again on the individual person just kind of

826
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: suck it up and deal with it in a mindful manner,

827
00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: why don't we focus instead on these social problems that

828
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: are causing all of these other social problems, so what

829
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 1: we don't have to do that? And those are really

830
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:50,839
Speaker 1: valid criticisms of westernized mindfulness in twenty twenties. And there's

831
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 1: actually a term for it that a guy named Miles

832
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: Kniel coined and another guy named Ronald Purser wrote a

833
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: book using that name, It's perfect mic mindfulness.

834
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:01,800
Speaker 3: Yeah. I love that word.

835
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 2: And they're basically saying like, hey, you guys have so

836
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 2: completely detached this from ethics and morals and religion and

837
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 2: and kind of co opted something that had its roots

838
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,760
Speaker 2: there that Yeah, you've you've there.

839
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 3: Needs to be a term for that. You've mixed micked it.

840
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've.

841
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 3: You've mixed screwed it, you miffed it, You've make miffed it.

842
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 2: I like that, Uh, and that you know, you can't

843
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 2: ignore the theological roots, uh and have it be the

844
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:34,839
Speaker 2: same thing.

845
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 1: And hr reps across the country say, oh, yes we can, yes,

846
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 1: and look what happens. We're really screwing people up. So

847
00:46:43,680 --> 00:46:46,759
Speaker 1: there's a there's like a couple of quotes I found

848
00:46:46,760 --> 00:46:48,400
Speaker 1: that I really feel like kind of get to the

849
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 1: heart of what happened when mindfulness came over here and

850
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 1: got got picked up by corporate America and the military

851
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 1: and just other surprising groups and maybe put to not

852
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:02,759
Speaker 1: the best uses. There's a really good New York Times

853
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: article from back in twenty fifteen that was kind of

854
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: a meditation on the idea of mindfulness or the word

855
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 1: mindfulness and what it means by Virginia Heffernan, and she

856
00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 1: says that what commercial mindfulness may have lost from the

857
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:22,400
Speaker 1: most rigorous Buddhist tenants that it replaced is the implication

858
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,800
Speaker 1: that suffering cannot be escaped but must be faced. And

859
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,280
Speaker 1: that's that mispackaging, that miss marketing that we talked about,

860
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: That the idea that if you meditate your mindful it's

861
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 1: going to free you from all your problems, make you

862
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 1: less stressed and more productive and just happier. And that's

863
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: not necessarily the case, because we in the West tend

864
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 1: to really like to, like you said, avoid all of

865
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 1: the stuff that really stinks and just get as much

866
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:51,040
Speaker 1: of the stuff that we like, and that's not what

867
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:51,799
Speaker 1: that's meant for.

868
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, this I think is from the same article about

869
00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 2: mindful fracking. Could that be next? Putting in neuros science

870
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 2: halo around a byword for both uppers productivity and downers

871
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 2: relaxation to ensure a more compliant workforce in a more

872
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 2: prosperous c suite.

873
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:10,799
Speaker 3: Right there it is.

874
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: And there's another one too. The Dalai Lama apparently pointed

875
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: out that even a suicide bomber would likely have to

876
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:22,279
Speaker 1: cultivate some sort of mindfulness. It's not inherently ethical. And

877
00:48:22,320 --> 00:48:25,359
Speaker 1: if it's not inherently ethical, then that means that you

878
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 1: could conceivably use it to nefarious ends. And the way

879
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 1: that Buddhists for thousands of years kept it from being

880
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 1: used to nefares ends is by encasing it in wholesomeness

881
00:48:38,120 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 1: like mindfulness. Specifically, what's called right mindfulness by the Buddhists

882
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 1: is it's a wholesome approach and separating wholesome thoughts from

883
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 1: unwholesome thoughts. And if you just take the mindfulness practice

884
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: out of that context, you have a problem. You want

885
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: to read that quote from Andrew Olenski.

886
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:02,319
Speaker 2: True mindfulness is deeply an inextricably embedded in the notion

887
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 2: of wholesomeness. Just as a tree removed from the forest

888
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:07,240
Speaker 2: is no longer a tree but a piece of lumber,

889
00:49:07,640 --> 00:49:11,440
Speaker 2: so also the carrying attentiveness of mindfulness extracted from its

890
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 2: matrix of wholesome coorizing factors, denigrates into mere attention.

891
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, best attention. That's the best you can hope for.

892
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,840
Speaker 1: Is it just detegrates into mere attention and not something harmful,

893
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 1: you know? So Yeah, I think it's great. I think

894
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:28,480
Speaker 1: it's wonderful that people want this and they're seeking it

895
00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:30,759
Speaker 1: out and they're trying it. I think the people who

896
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: are selling it to everybody need to just package it

897
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 1: more transparently and explain the true purpose of it and

898
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: stop using it for productivity.

899
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 3: Agreed.

900
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:47,320
Speaker 1: If you want to know more about mindfulness, go research

901
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 1: it and see if it's for you, and give it

902
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 1: a shot, and go into it with right eyes, right vision.

903
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,400
Speaker 1: I can't remember. And since I said I can't remember,

904
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 1: of course, that means it's time for the listener mail.

905
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 2: I'm going to call this tribute to Ziggi Bombach from

906
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 2: his son Michael. We got a great email that I've

907
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,399
Speaker 2: been conversing with Michael for the past couple of weeks

908
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 2: on this good dude and his dad was a good dude. Hey, guys,

909
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:17,839
Speaker 2: longtime listener recently lost. My father had had been going

910
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 2: through a great deal of grief. My dad was at

911
00:50:20,320 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 2: high risk for catching COVID, so I made sure it

912
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,160
Speaker 2: was my priority to keep him safe and since being

913
00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,200
Speaker 2: social wasn't an option over the past couple of years,

914
00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 2: we turned to nature during the pandemic and rekindled our

915
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 2: love for the great outdoors, though he never had to

916
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 2: rekindle his. He was born in Poland and immigrated to

917
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,720
Speaker 2: the States in the sixties and was only ever comfortable

918
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 2: in his gardener in the woods. He was a simple

919
00:50:42,880 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 2: but passionate man. So we started driving out to western

920
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 2: north New Jersey to Stokes for Est to get spring

921
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 2: water and go fishing. It's a gorgeous part of the state.

922
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 2: It was about fifty minutes each way. Perfect to introduce

923
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 2: him to my favorite podcast, Stuff you should Know. Even

924
00:50:58,520 --> 00:50:59,879
Speaker 2: though I had to describe to him what a pot

925
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 2: cast was, he was instantly enthralled, and I can still

926
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 2: hear him quietly asking in the car, if Chuck and

927
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 2: Josh we're going to be broadcasting today, it's just adorable.

928
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:12,840
Speaker 3: Like me, He adored your.

929
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 2: Ability to convey something complex and tough information, such as

930
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:18,560
Speaker 2: sweetened conversational way.

931
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 3: He would always come home and.

932
00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 2: Tell my mom what he had learned was so much

933
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:24,319
Speaker 2: isolation the past few years. It was warming to hear

934
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:27,320
Speaker 2: him happy about all these new subjects that he was

935
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 2: learning about. You gave him that happiness and made his

936
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 2: life that much better of the last couple of years

937
00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 2: of his life. I can't thank you enough for everything

938
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 2: that you continue to do. There's so much bad in

939
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 2: this world right now, and people are hardly operating at

940
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 2: their best, but you continue to do something worthwhile and

941
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:46,439
Speaker 2: worth making, something worth learning. So thank you for making

942
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,640
Speaker 2: the life of Ziggy bomb Bach a little brighter towards

943
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 2: his end.

944
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 3: And that is from.

945
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 2: Mike, and he sent me a picture of Ziggy and

946
00:51:53,440 --> 00:51:56,280
Speaker 2: I read the obituary. I looked it up and Ziggy

947
00:51:56,280 --> 00:51:59,320
Speaker 2: seemed like a great, great guy. And I had to

948
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:02,720
Speaker 2: zen out to reading this so I wouldn't cry.

949
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:04,160
Speaker 3: Ye have cried every time.

950
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 1: That's a really amazing email. Thank you so much. It's

951
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:10,960
Speaker 1: impossible to not past judgment on that one. I'm going

952
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 1: to say, I feel very proud, Chuck.

953
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 2: That's right in this case, great judgment and ri Ip

954
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:17,919
Speaker 2: Ziggy sound like a great guy.

955
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, ri Ip Ziggy, And thank you Mike. I'm glad

956
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 1: we could help bring you and your dad together. That's

957
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 1: pretty amazing stuff. If you want to be like Mike

958
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 1: and get in touch with us and write us the

959
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:32,160
Speaker 1: email of the century, we are willing to read it.

960
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:36,359
Speaker 1: You can send it to us at stuff Podcasts at

961
00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio dot com.

962
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:44,000
Speaker 2: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

963
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:48,279
Speaker 2: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

964
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:50,240
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.