1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: Hi, everyone, Sophia Bush here. Welcome to Work in Progress, 2 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 1: where I talked to people who inspire me about how 3 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: they got to where they are and where they think 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: they're still going. Today, I'm working Progress. I am thrilled 5 00:00:24,560 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: to share my conversation with an incredible and amazing word Smith. 6 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: He's adventurous, self examining, and dedicated to evolving and helping 7 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: others evolve as well. It feels incredibly timely as we 8 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,519 Speaker 1: look toward a new year. Today's guest is Mr David White. 9 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,240 Speaker 1: David is an accomplished poet and Associate Fellow at SAD 10 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: Business School at the University of Oxford. He grew up 11 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: in Yorkshire to an Irish mother and an English father, 12 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: and his love of poetry and the natural world started 13 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: very early in his life. Rather than formally study pop 14 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: petry in literature, David took a different path and earned 15 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: a degree in marine zoology after being inspired by Jacques Cousteau. 16 00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: He was a nature guide in the Galapagos Islands and 17 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: led tours into the Himalaya that all of his adventurous 18 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 1: travels ended up leading him right back to poetry. David 19 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: has published several books of poetry and prose, including The 20 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: Bell and the Blackbird, Everything is Waiting for You, and 21 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: the House of Belonging. He also has the unique credential 22 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: of bringing poetry into the corporate world for the purpose 23 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: of enhancing leadership. On today's episode, David and I discussed 24 00:01:37,760 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: the robustness of vulnerability being ravished by the natural world, 25 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:47,000 Speaker 1: and how sometimes you have to start undoing yourself in 26 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,960 Speaker 1: order to progress. We sat down via zoom to share 27 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 1: ideas about destiny, finding yourself, and how poetry is, in 28 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 1: his words, the language against which we have no defenses. 29 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: If you've been hoping to see a little more poetry 30 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: in the world lately, this episode is definitely for you. David, 31 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: I'm so excited that you've joined me on the podcast today. 32 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: I'm I'm such a fan of your work and I 33 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: I think even more of your way of looking at 34 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: the world. And to be able to dig in with 35 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 1: you over the next hour so about where you find 36 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: inspiration is something I'm really looking forward to. So thanks, 37 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: my pleasure, good to be speaking with you. There's there's 38 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 1: a place I would love to start as as a 39 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,919 Speaker 1: fan of poetry and the planet and learning, which are 40 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:49,040 Speaker 1: three things that that you study and teach so beautifully. Um, 41 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: I think there's really no way to avoid coming across 42 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: your work. And there was something I read you. You 43 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: were interviewed about your collection The Bell and the Blackbird, 44 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: and the person interviewing you asked about this recurring meme 45 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: in Irish poetry amongkh who stands and here's the bell 46 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:13,360 Speaker 1: calling him to prayer. And you went into the most 47 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:17,519 Speaker 1: beautiful answer about it, and you talked about the bell 48 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:21,480 Speaker 1: as a call to prayer, calling you to a greater 49 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: context to the one that you inhabit, and that the 50 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:27,799 Speaker 1: blackbird is the world calling to you as it finds you. 51 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 1: You went in to speak about contemplation and and the 52 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: crossroads that people live in constantly simultaneously. Can you tell 53 00:03:37,560 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: us a little bit about that? Yeah, I think that 54 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: meme isn't just an Irish meme. It takes that particular 55 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: Irish form. Irish monasticism was so singular and so particular 56 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 1: to that to Irish culture. But it's really the the 57 00:03:55,880 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 1: invitation in all of our great contemplative traditions to to 58 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: live at at the crossroads, the conversational crossroads, the invitational 59 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: crossroads between going deeper, coming to ground, getting below the 60 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: horizon of your personality and going out and meeting all 61 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,800 Speaker 1: the horizons of the world so that we're we're actually 62 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: not supposed to choose between them. Where you know, the 63 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: human conversation is holding the conversation between the inner what 64 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: seems like the inner world, and what seems like the 65 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: outer world. And and in many ways that's why it's 66 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 1: so difficult, that's why it's so wonderful all at the 67 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: same time. Do you find in your practice of holding 68 00:04:51,080 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: both worlds, does it get a bit easier or perhaps 69 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 1: a bit more magical when you finally accept that two 70 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:06,159 Speaker 1: things that or quite different are true at the same time. Yes, 71 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,600 Speaker 1: I mean I think yes. And then a third quality 72 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: is created out of it, just as you find in 73 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 1: a in a marriage, often the difficult parts of another 74 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: person and the difficult parts of you are can create 75 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: something quite remarkable. If they can be reconciled. You can 76 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: apprentice yourself to one another in a way. Your ability 77 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:40,360 Speaker 1: to work with your own vulnerabilities I think gives you 78 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: compassion for other people's vulnerabilities, and I often feel with 79 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 1: vulnerability to that. It's where you're open to the world, 80 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 1: whether you want to be or not, and you could. 81 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,679 Speaker 1: It's also it's also where the world is is open 82 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:59,799 Speaker 1: to you. It just seems to find you in those moments. 83 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: You know, we you know, we talk about destiny for 84 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: a human being, and I often feel that human beings 85 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: always live out their destiny. But it it just it 86 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 1: depends upon the leveler which you want to live out 87 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: that conversation. You can live out your destiny from the 88 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 1: point of view of complete frustration, it's still your destiny. 89 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: It's still colored and the conversation. No one else can 90 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: be as frustrated as you are and in the way 91 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 1: that you are, and so it has your particular stamp 92 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,799 Speaker 1: on it. But you're your experience, your your destiny only 93 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 1: through the the quality of distance. And the more you 94 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: open yourself, the more vulnerable you make yourself, but vulnerability 95 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: not as weakness, but as a different kind of robustness. 96 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: The more you have a chance of actually consuminating that destiny, 97 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 1: of actually through many wonderful and often quite painful steps, 98 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: you know, beginning to hold the conversation at deeper and 99 00:07:13,680 --> 00:07:21,200 Speaker 1: deeper levels. I love that idea of vulnerability as robustness. Yes, yeah, 100 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: I have an essay I wrote coll vulnerability, and the 101 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: first line lines are really about the way vulnerability just 102 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: isn't a choice, and you don't you think when you're 103 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: younger that you have a choice about being vulnerable or not. 104 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: But the more we go through the verstitutes and difficulties 105 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: of life, and the humiliations of life, you know, the 106 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 1: humiliations of relationship, the humiliations of being a mother or 107 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: a father, the humiliations of being an artist, you know, 108 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: where you mess up in public. The more you realize that, 109 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 1: and the humiliations of health actually of having difficulty, you know, 110 00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 1: with our own viability and weakness. Um, the more we 111 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: realize that that we're creatures who are always vulnerable, and 112 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: the only question is how you will inhabit that vulnerability? 113 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:26,239 Speaker 1: Will you inhabit as a wholehearted citizen of of grief 114 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: and loss? The Irish know this very well. Oh, you 115 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: constantly try and abstract yourself out of your body in 116 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: order not to feel these vulnerabilities, and abstract yourself out 117 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,079 Speaker 1: of relationships with other people. You know, we often won't 118 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: have intimate relationships with other people or with ourselves because 119 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: of the because of the pain we've experienced through those 120 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: intimate relationships and hoping that you can have a good 121 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: friendship without pain, hoping you can have a good deep 122 00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: marriage or relationship without humiliation and heartbreak. Part of our maturity, 123 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:13,439 Speaker 1: I feel, is is learning that it's all approached through 124 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: the doorway of of a kind of woundedness in a 125 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: way mm hmmm, that it can be too defined quite 126 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 1: beautifully by being being the way, the place where you're 127 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: open to the world, whether you want to be or not. 128 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: I think about it to your point when you talk 129 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,839 Speaker 1: about as we as we mature, we find ways to 130 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: do this perhaps better. And I think about maturity as 131 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: being marked by tenderness and people. I find that if 132 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,319 Speaker 1: we're willing to mature in a way where we remain open, 133 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: we get more and more tender to others into their 134 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: experiences and and you're right, there is no way to 135 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: avoid vulnerability. I I consider it by this phrase, let 136 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: go or be dragged, And I think about your going. 137 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: You're going in that direction, whether you want to go 138 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 1: or not. If you let go, perhaps you surrender and 139 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: then you have a tender experience. And if you refuse 140 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: to let go, you'll be dragged and perhaps become one 141 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: of those people you reference who is trying to escape 142 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: themselves all of the time to avoid the feeling. Yes, 143 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 1: now we we meet at this moment where you have 144 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:35,199 Speaker 1: such beauty to share and wisdom to offer, and and 145 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: the way that you do so in this conversation or 146 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: in your work and your writing is so incredible to me. 147 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: And I'm always curious when I sit with people who 148 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:50,439 Speaker 1: I admire who you were as a child, because I 149 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: wonder as I hear the way you speak and your 150 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: perspective on the world, my brain can't help but think 151 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,599 Speaker 1: was he like this when he was ten? You know 152 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: who is David as a child? Old? Can you pay 153 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 1: a picture for us of of your life? Then? I 154 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:06,719 Speaker 1: know that you grew up in Yorkshire. I know that 155 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:10,240 Speaker 1: your mom was Irish. Were you spending a lot of 156 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,839 Speaker 1: time in Ireland? What? What were you interested in as 157 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 1: a child? Were you always curious about about words and people? Well? 158 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 1: I was spending a lot of time in Ireland through 159 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: my imagination and my mother's imagination. So I didn't tend 160 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 1: to go over until I was later, until later in 161 00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: my team's but but it was ever present in our 162 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:38,080 Speaker 1: house through my mother's You know the way my mother 163 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: shaped her identity and her singing and storytelling and all 164 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: the rest of it. Um um. But I was, I'd 165 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:49,120 Speaker 1: say I was. You know, I was quite a visionary 166 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: child in a way. When I look at that young 167 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: boy I was. I was quite ravished by the natural world. 168 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:02,559 Speaker 1: I could look at landscapes and ice gates, the offer 169 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 1: in England, you know, because the the weather systems are 170 00:12:06,480 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 1: always changing, which is why people are talking about whether 171 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: all the time. In Britain, and you've got these great 172 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: moving skies and the moors and woods and fields around 173 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 1: where I grew up, these steep valleys, and I was 174 00:12:21,160 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 1: completely mesmerized by the world. And I felt mesmerized by 175 00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,199 Speaker 1: the world. And I wasn't I wouldn't say I was 176 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: very articulate about it, although I was writing from quite 177 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 1: a young age. But I was reading a lot of 178 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: very articulate people, even from when I was quite young. 179 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: And I was very lucky, lucky to have really really 180 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:51,160 Speaker 1: good teachers, both in sciences and in arts, and and 181 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: so I was schooled really well in in you know, 182 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: the poetic tradition, which is very very rich in Britain 183 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 1: of us. And I grew up, you know, not far 184 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 1: from where the Bronte's sisters lived. They were they were 185 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: a big part of the way everyone looked at the 186 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: moor lends and and the skyscapes and the landscape around us. 187 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 1: I grew up not far from where Ted Hughes the 188 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:25,600 Speaker 1: Pot grew up, and he had a very descriptive ability, 189 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: you know, to bring to bring the wilder parts of 190 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: that world alive. So I felt very privileged to grow 191 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: up in both in a rich family environment. Um, I mean, 192 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: we weren't rich financially, but it was a very rich 193 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: inheritance from both Yorkshire and Ireland, and then a very 194 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: very rich landscape, and and a marvelous school a series 195 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,319 Speaker 1: of marvelous schools and teachers that I went to. I 196 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 1: was just very lucky that way. M hmm. Do you 197 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: remember when when you think back on that time period, 198 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 1: all of the things you were reading and when you 199 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:10,800 Speaker 1: began writing, did you have a favorite poem as a child. 200 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 1: My favorite poem was was also the most terrifying poem 201 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: that I read at that time, and that was Cole 202 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 1: Ridge is the Ancient Mariner. I don't know if you 203 00:14:24,920 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 1: know it's the classic piece. It was an ancient mariner. 204 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: He stuffeth one of three by the long gery beard 205 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: and scrawny hand, Why four thou stoppest me? And that 206 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: the ancient Mariner, of course, as an old sailor who 207 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 1: was stopping these three wedding guests on the way to 208 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: the wedding. And they can hear the wedding in the 209 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: background and there and the celebrations and everything, but they're 210 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: so mesmerized by his story that they cannot go on, 211 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: and so the wedding proceeds without him, while the ancient 212 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: Mariner tells them about his harrowing tale of his voyage 213 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: into the nether regions of the world. And I read 214 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: that poem accompanied by these engravings done by a French 215 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: engraver called Dory. They're the most famous engravings that go 216 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: with courageous poem, and and I was terrified by it 217 00:15:19,320 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: and mesmerized at the same time. So I really realized 218 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: the impact. You know, I felt like passing hawk could 219 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: come past sunk its clausing to me and then carried 220 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: me off into this guy when I read the Ancient Mariner, 221 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: And so I felt abducted by poetry and ravished by 222 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 1: the natural world. And at the same time I was 223 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: a local kid, you know, running around with all my 224 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:50,760 Speaker 1: mates and getting building dens in the fields and all 225 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 1: the rest. So so it wasn't an abstracted, lonely childhood. 226 00:15:55,360 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: But I had this this very powerful and singular relationship 227 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: with the natural world. Singular also in the sense that 228 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: I would go off by myself quite quite a lot. 229 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,520 Speaker 1: And I was I was quite quite competent later on 230 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: to find that words with William words At, the great 231 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 1: poet from the Lake District not far from Yorkshire, spent 232 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: a lot of time alone as a child too, in 233 00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: the in the mountain. So some of us there, some 234 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: of us have just made that way. M So I 235 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: was that I was that boy who like to go 236 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: off by himself into the woods and fields and on 237 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: the moor, spend time. I just mess him. Yeah. I 238 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: remember having such a feeling of kinship listening to an 239 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: interview of Mary Oliver's where she spoke about her daily 240 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: routine and how early she'd get up and just go 241 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: out and explore and look around and observe nature. And 242 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: it's not lost on me that so many of my 243 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 1: favorite poems and words Smith take time to observe the 244 00:17:03,760 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: magic in the world around us. And then you you 245 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: describe it in such a way as being carried off 246 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: by you know, a great bird of prey. That feeling 247 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: feels familiar to me, though I don't think I've ever 248 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: described anything in that way before. Yes, yes, and and 249 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: and you say, especially as it pertains to that phrase, 250 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 1: that it was this story of the mariner that did 251 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,679 Speaker 1: it to you, which makes me feel a bit giddy 252 00:17:32,760 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: because you wound up getting a degree in marine zoology. 253 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,879 Speaker 1: And and I'm so curious. You know, through through your 254 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: childhood and your schooling and as you mentioned, you know, 255 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 1: being out with mates and playing and doing all of 256 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: the things that boys in the wilderness do. What was 257 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: it that led you from this poetic space. I imagine 258 00:17:54,840 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: the fascination with the natural world had much to do 259 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:00,920 Speaker 1: with it it into marine zoology. How how did you 260 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 1: end up choosing that path? Yes, well, first of all, 261 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: it's is interesting, guy. I've never put the two things 262 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: together of being mesmerized by the ancient mariner and and 263 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: then find out myself failing in the Gallophagus Islands for yeah, um, 264 00:18:17,960 --> 00:18:21,479 Speaker 1: working as a naturalist there. But they're modern, modern mariner 265 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: if you will, Oh so. Yeah, Although I a slightly 266 00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 1: more comfortable time than he did. But although I had 267 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 1: my own my own harrowing experiences too. Um. Well, it 268 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: was another form of in transpmant, and that was with 269 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:42,639 Speaker 1: seeing Jacques Cousteau, the famous French marine zoologist. Uh. He 270 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: was also an innovator in the diving world. He invented 271 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: the aqua lung and the regulator through which you breathe. 272 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,160 Speaker 1: So and his series of programs on the television when 273 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,680 Speaker 1: I was young really captured my imagination, and I thought 274 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: it was quite astonishing that you could actually have worked 275 00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 1: like this in the world where you could follow the 276 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: life of the dolphin the board the good ship clips 277 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,680 Speaker 1: so that was the name of his ship. And so 278 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: I I decided that I could always read a book 279 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:19,119 Speaker 1: of John Donne or Emily Dickinson or William Words. I 280 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,159 Speaker 1: didn't need anyone to teach me how to do that. 281 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: But I didn't need someone to teach me biochemistry and 282 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: the crib cycle and all the rest and uh. And 283 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: so I put myself into sciences, knowing knowing that I 284 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: could always write, I would always and I would always 285 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:40,960 Speaker 1: read literature. But I needed some help in sciences. And 286 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:46,360 Speaker 1: then I started to I think seriously about the sea 287 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: and the ocean, which I had also always loved coming 288 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: out of this, out of this entrancement through Jack Gusto, 289 00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:58,920 Speaker 1: and then things came together in a very remarkable and 290 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 1: coincidental in North Wales, where I went to university, and 291 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: through a through a series of a series of of 292 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: really remarkable events and help both visible and invisible, I 293 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 1: found myself, um, in the Galpagus silence in a complete rise. 294 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: You know, six weeks before I was there, I had 295 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: no idea that my life was going to be heading 296 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: in that direction. But yeah, so I got the most 297 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 1: remarkable uh luck of the Irish job and and Gelepagus 298 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:51,159 Speaker 1: became my home for for over a year. What was 299 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,240 Speaker 1: it like? It's It's one of those places that in 300 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 1: my head feels so romantic and raw and vibrant. And 301 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: I just him, how did you wind up there? And 302 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:04,199 Speaker 1: what were you doing? You know, you said you had 303 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: your own harrowing tales being there? What what was that like? Well? 304 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: I mean, galapagus are romantic only in the sense of 305 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: imagining yourself adventuring to go there. They're actually very very wild, 306 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: very very austere, and very very fierce set of environments. Um, 307 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 1: you know they the the edge between life and death 308 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: is very very thin there. And when you live there 309 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:41,639 Speaker 1: and when you study the animals, and when you you 310 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: you witnessed alongside them, you're you're witness to a lot 311 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: of of living and dying. Uhreaches many creatures that you 312 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: get to know as individuals. You know, we're not quite 313 00:21:57,520 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: aware of it, but every creature in the wild has 314 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 1: just as much individual character as as a human being 315 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:05,959 Speaker 1: has an individual human being. As you get to know them, 316 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: they all have different behaviors and different mannerisms, and so 317 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: you'd actually get you actually you know many animals although 318 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: they were wild. You would visit them in certain places, 319 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: and because they have no fear of human kind, you 320 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 1: would get to know them quite well. And then you 321 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: would find them dead on the beach when you came 322 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:33,840 Speaker 1: back on one time or another um and all you'd 323 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: actually witness them being killed by other creatures. So so 324 00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: the land environment's very faierce that the the environment underwater 325 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: is very fair, very fierce, especially when you're there to 326 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 1: begin with, there you know six or seven different species 327 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: of shark, and before you understand their behaviors and and 328 00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: are able to identify sharks in which which one is 329 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: a day dress in which aren't, and at what time 330 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: are they dangerous and when are they not? The you know, 331 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,479 Speaker 1: the whole environment can actually seem completely and utterly anti 332 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: human um. So it takes some settling in, uh in 333 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: order to really really feel at homing Lepigus as the 334 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: human being were just visitors there. Having said that, it's 335 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: just I mean, it's one of it is one of 336 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: the most remarkable places in the world. Funny enough, just 337 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 1: this morning I was looking up on the internet to 338 00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: see what effect the virus was having on the islands, 339 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: and of course all of the visiting and all of 340 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 1: the boats, including the boats I used to work on, 341 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: um have stopped. UM. So I'm sure all the animals 342 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: and birds are getting a great rest from everyone. Although 343 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: the place was well organized and for minimum impact, you know, 344 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: just high number of people. But it is one of 345 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: the most remarkable places on the world, in the world, 346 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: but very very fierce. Indeed, when you're there, you get 347 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 1: a sense of what the world was like before human 348 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: beings evolved, never mind took over creation. So so it's 349 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,960 Speaker 1: quite disturbing from that point of view. If you really attention, yeah, 350 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: in in your time there, and I know you spent 351 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: time in the Amazon as well. What what was your 352 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:32,399 Speaker 1: work you know you mentioned being on boats. What what 353 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,639 Speaker 1: is the experience of working in those environments. Yes, I 354 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: was a naturalist guide Gia naturalista for the the National 355 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,359 Speaker 1: Park and for the company that implied me you. You 356 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,000 Speaker 1: had this strange work relationship of working for both the 357 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: National Park and for the people who actually paid your wages. 358 00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,879 Speaker 1: And no one, no one can visit any of the 359 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: islands or any of the visiting parts of the islands 360 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: without being in the company of a Gianetta Dalista and 361 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: and and so you're a kind of policeman or woman. 362 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,200 Speaker 1: But you you do all your best policing through educating, 363 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: you know, if you really teaching about the the both 364 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: robustness and fragility of the place and not carrying things 365 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: away and not disturbing nesting birds, and everyone gets it, 366 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:32,440 Speaker 1: you know. And so um it was really you know, 367 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: I was privileged to spend hours every morning and every 368 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: afternoon and then from the boat also paying attention to 369 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,040 Speaker 1: animals and birds and landscapes. There were other than myself, 370 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 1: So in many ways it was like a two year 371 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: meditation retreat um in the sense that you were constantly 372 00:25:55,840 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: paying attention in silence. Two, this astonishing creation that we're 373 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: a part of sorts very very transformative that way, and 374 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:19,400 Speaker 1: and absolutely remarkable as a as a a place of apprenticeship, 375 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:22,879 Speaker 1: I would say to the two poetry and the writing 376 00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: of portray in the poetic tradition, although I wrote very 377 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: little when I was actually there, but as a yeah, 378 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: as an apprenticeship into deeper states of attension from which 379 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,760 Speaker 1: you then speak, it was. It was a marvelous, marvelous place. 380 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,479 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Do you think that was perhaps your biggest 381 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 1: takeaway or observation from that time period in your life, 382 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:52,360 Speaker 1: the the way to pay attention, the way to sit 383 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: in reverence. Yes, um, it was. It was a very 384 00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: participant tif. It wasn't just sitting because you were having 385 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: to You were having to help navigate and stand watch 386 00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:11,920 Speaker 1: on the sailing board. At that time, we had no 387 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: gps um. It was pre gps um. There were no 388 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: navigation lights in the islands, and all of the sailing 389 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: was done by night, so we had lots of adventures 390 00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: and lots of near misses sailing in the dark between 391 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: these islands, you know, and you did it NonStop. So 392 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: anything that can go wrong at sea will go wrong, 393 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: and many things did so, lots of near drownings, lots 394 00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: of um close shaves, and and always working with this 395 00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 1: fierce element called the sea or the ocean, whether you 396 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: were on it or trying to get ashore through the 397 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: through the surf, you know, boats turning over the beach 398 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 1: when you were trying to get people ashore and bit 399 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: and buy things and poisoned by things. Goodness. So yeah, 400 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: it was. It was a really actively reverend time. It was. 401 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: It was a sense of I was you know, it 402 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: was great being a young man or woman there because 403 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: it was very robustly embracing you. Yes, and how did 404 00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,280 Speaker 1: you make a shift from that type of work into writing? What? 405 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 1: What was it that made you decide you were ready 406 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: for the next adventure? Yeah? So I was reading the 407 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: whole time I was there. I had a shelf full 408 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 1: of potrait that I'd taken with me. I got to 409 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: know those parts very very well. Indeed, you know, there 410 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: was no internet in those days. Um so um I uh. 411 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 1: I read a lot of John Donne, which I had 412 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 1: with me at the time. It just happened to be 413 00:28:58,200 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: one of the books I flung in my bag, and 414 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: then this moment so and then other books that other 415 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: that travelers would bring on board, and so I was 416 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: always keeping my poetic identity, your life, you could say, 417 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: but I wasn't writing at all, um um. And I 418 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 1: had the choice to stay on in Gelephagus because we 419 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,720 Speaker 1: were needed as guide. Trained guides were hard to come by, 420 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,160 Speaker 1: and but at the end of my time there, I 421 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,920 Speaker 1: decided I could stay if I wanted, and I would 422 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: have a remarkable life, but it would be it would 423 00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 1: be the Peter Pan life of never actually growing up. 424 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: Uh that I knew there were other forms of maturity, 425 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 1: of apprenticeship, of exploration which had to do with my 426 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: work in the world, whatever the full form that fully took, 427 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 1: you know. So I left and traveled off through South 428 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: America with my then girlfriend Kibbe quas woman Mum, and 429 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: had a very traumatic time of it actually, because I 430 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: was very happy, very robust, very healthy, on top of 431 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: the world and completely competent in the Galapas Islands. And 432 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 1: then I went through this kind of undoing when I 433 00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: left the island. I went through this incredible vulnerability physically. Um. 434 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 1: I went through some strange kind of physiological illness where 435 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: I couldn't eat, and I started shedding the pounds and 436 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: and I went through a kind of molting phase, you know, 437 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: of of suddenly being strangely feeling strangely incompetent in the 438 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: world from being absolutely competent in in Gelepargus uh. And 439 00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:01,200 Speaker 1: it was allied with this break down in my body 440 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: that was occurring, um. And that was allied with the 441 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 1: that then, of course created difficulty in my relationship. So 442 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 1: I had the breakdown of my body, the breakdown of 443 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: myself identity and the breakdown of the relationship all happening 444 00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: at once as we traveled through Peru and Bolivia and yeah, 445 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: and then I said said goodbye to my partner in 446 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: in Machu Picchu, you know, match Picchu. Very romantic place 447 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:46,080 Speaker 1: to say goodbye um. And then I made my way 448 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: back via California, UH, where I lived on a goat 449 00:31:51,840 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: farm for six weeks nooking goat and in Santa Rosa, UH, 450 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 1: and then made my way back to Britain, so where 451 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: I tried to adapt to the northern winter having lived 452 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: for two years on the equator in the pair of 453 00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: shots and a T shirt. So it was all all 454 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 1: good for me, but quite difficult times after I left Alephigus. 455 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 1: I imagine, yes, and it and it strikes me because 456 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: I think about some of the work that you do now, 457 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: this this world of conversational leadership and and and you 458 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: speak so much about adaptability. How do you think you 459 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: began to find your way back to yourself at that 460 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 1: point to two adapt Well, Um, you know, I had 461 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 1: I lived through um the winter in North Wales where 462 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: I gone to university. I mean I did go back 463 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 1: to auction see my family and everything, but North Wales 464 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:59,240 Speaker 1: was my kind of spiritual home at the time, but 465 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,920 Speaker 1: it was very difficult. I mean, a wet Welsh winter 466 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: is quite difficult to live through living in the tropics. 467 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: And I woke up one morning with the notion that 468 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: I should go to India. And at that stage in 469 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 1: my life I always moved very quickly, and within a 470 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: few days I was on my way to India. And 471 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: the intuition was really good because first of all it 472 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,600 Speaker 1: took me to India, but more importantly it then took 473 00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: me to Nepal and the Himalayas. Um I had a 474 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 1: series of absolutely incredible and remarkable um invitational experiences in 475 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: those mountains. We you know, it's the classic voyage to 476 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: the Himalayas, you know, to find yourself. And it actually 477 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 1: worked for me at and through you know, through adventuring 478 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,240 Speaker 1: in the mountains and through getting really sick and through 479 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: almost die ing of any big distentery up in the 480 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:10,520 Speaker 1: the bet areas of Nepal and then um walking out 481 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:16,320 Speaker 1: back by myself. I really turned my right life around 482 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: and I had a sense of of a kind of 483 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: soul adventure that I was on, a really palpable sense 484 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:39,240 Speaker 1: of the soul adventure that I was following. I feel 485 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: that the essence of that what what adventure lies ahead, 486 00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 1: or the potential of it. When I read one of 487 00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:53,120 Speaker 1: my favorite pieces that you've written, which is what to 488 00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: Remember When Waking, and you talk about that, it's it's 489 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 1: a as you mentioned about the g Up Goes, it's 490 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:05,600 Speaker 1: it's almost a razor's edge between two worlds. And while 491 00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: it isn't life and death, it's it's that dreaming and waking. 492 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:13,320 Speaker 1: It's it's the other dimension that we touch in a 493 00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,040 Speaker 1: different kind of consciousness and the place we might go 494 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: today that moment seems hyper precious to me in a 495 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: time like this, you know, being being on the precipice 496 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 1: of possibility. I'm I'm curious. Do you think that that 497 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:39,920 Speaker 1: adventure in the Himalaya did that inform a perspective like 498 00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 1: that one? Well, I suppose you know the poems about 499 00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: um really being present at the threshold between your sleep 500 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 1: and suddenly coming back into the world, suddenly opening out 501 00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: into this consciousness that we take is the every day 502 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: but which isn't every day at all. It's absolutely miraculous 503 00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:08,320 Speaker 1: and remarkable, and your sleep as has enabled you to 504 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: reimagine yourself in it and to re learn what you're 505 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: involved with. So I suppose you could say there were 506 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: lots of lots of experiences in the Himalayas around that, 507 00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:30,240 Speaker 1: around that waking. Uh. There's one poem called Muktinas about 508 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: waking in the morning before leading a group of people 509 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,920 Speaker 1: over a very high pass. This is from a This 510 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: is from a a much later trip after my first 511 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,280 Speaker 1: trip to the Himalayas, when I and then I returned 512 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: and took people on on tracks I suppose through the 513 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:54,080 Speaker 1: mountains and waking one morning before going over the throng 514 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: La Pass, which is eighteen thousand feet and when you're 515 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,799 Speaker 1: at eighteen thousand feet, things can go very, very wrong. 516 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: You're on a kind of knife fetch of survivability, and 517 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 1: when you have a group, it's all magnified by the 518 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 1: number of people you have. The more people you have, 519 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,320 Speaker 1: the more chances there are of things going wrong. So 520 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,200 Speaker 1: waking into that morning when we were first setting up 521 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:24,520 Speaker 1: the pass was waking into a really powerful sense of 522 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 1: responsibility that I wasn't wasn't necessarily fully ready for. We 523 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:39,320 Speaker 1: talked about the power of leadership and the power of responsibility, 524 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,399 Speaker 1: but we don't talk about as much about the vulnerability 525 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,319 Speaker 1: of leadership here. So so this is the piece. It's God, 526 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,479 Speaker 1: I think I can remember remember it. It's mud enough 527 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: dawn at Muktinough, and I looked through the window, white 528 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: mountains and the solid slopes of snow, cold scent of pine, 529 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 1: and the raven call of black birds circling upward toward nothing. 530 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 1: Dawn at muckt Enough, and I look through the window, 531 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: white mountains and the steady slopes of snow, cold scent 532 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 1: of pine, and the raven call of black birds circling 533 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: upward toward nothing. So the breath escapes the mouth, So 534 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 1: the breath escapes the mouth spiraling in a cold room, 535 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: so the words leave our lips. The first line of 536 00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: a long palm, with no courage to finish, So the 537 00:38:37,640 --> 00:38:41,560 Speaker 1: lines leave our lips, The first lines of a long palm, 538 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:46,600 Speaker 1: with no courage to finish. This is the pay This 539 00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:51,880 Speaker 1: is the place the path begins. The empty room beneath 540 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:56,400 Speaker 1: the breath, where everything we've broken comes back to be repaired. 541 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:01,440 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. This is the place we stop. Look up, 542 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:07,320 Speaker 1: um see it here a child crying. Ah, I've just 543 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 1: lost the last part of it now, um, the first 544 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 1: lines of a long poem, with no courage to finish. 545 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: This is the place the path begins. The empty room 546 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,840 Speaker 1: beneath the breath, where everything we've broken comes back to repaired, 547 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: where bitterness returns, turns to a final sour nous, sourness 548 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: on the lime washed walls, and disappears. This is the 549 00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 1: place we stop. Look out the window beneath us, a 550 00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:38,360 Speaker 1: child is crying, while above a tight arrow have driven 551 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: ponies points the way to the high pass. And I 552 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 1: did actually have that experience of looking out the window saying, 553 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 1: oh my god, I've got to lead everyone up there. Uh, 554 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,880 Speaker 1: this path that disappeared up into the waists, you know, 555 00:39:55,239 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 1: of twenty feet and and I heard this child crying 556 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 1: beneath me, and I saw this arrow of Tibetan pony 557 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,479 Speaker 1: has been driven up the hillside at the same time, 558 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:14,520 Speaker 1: And of course that was exactly exactly the conversation I 559 00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:19,200 Speaker 1: was involved with. Was was the child, you know, the 560 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 1: part of you that wants to be taken care of 561 00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 1: by the world, and the world literally in the form 562 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:34,000 Speaker 1: of an arrow, inviting you out of yourself and beyond yourself, 563 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: beyond what you feel you could do. And the ability 564 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:42,440 Speaker 1: to hold those two qualities together, I think is is 565 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 1: actually part of leadership. If you have no relationship with 566 00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:52,040 Speaker 1: the crying child in you, then you have no compassion 567 00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,759 Speaker 1: for people who work with you, are for you when 568 00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: they get frightened and you and perhaps even more importantly, 569 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:05,320 Speaker 1: you can't recognize when they're frightened. Ah, so you can't 570 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,279 Speaker 1: help them or you can't get others to help them. 571 00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 1: So um yeah, So lots of different forms of waking 572 00:41:15,560 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 1: into the world. And the interesting thing is, throughout our 573 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,279 Speaker 1: life we never stopped disappearing and then waking back into 574 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 1: the world. You do it when you're when you're an 575 00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 1: infant three days old, you do it, you do it 576 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,720 Speaker 1: when you're ninety years old. Yeah, So, always disappearing, always 577 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:36,040 Speaker 1: waking again, and it's always it's interesting to think that 578 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:41,840 Speaker 1: we might be doing that ourselves too, in in every 579 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 1: part of our lives. Well, that that ebb and flow, 580 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:50,279 Speaker 1: that cycle, it's title really thank you for sharing that. 581 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:56,320 Speaker 1: That was really just so so beautiful. Thank you. It 582 00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,560 Speaker 1: relates so much to the conversation we were having earlier 583 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,719 Speaker 1: about vulnerability. You know, do you surrender to it? Do 584 00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 1: do you open yourself to experiencing yourself fully including the 585 00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 1: pain or the fear, or the loss, the things we 586 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 1: so often are encouraged to turn away from. If if, 587 00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,760 Speaker 1: if you can become more whole, you can see others 588 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 1: more wholly. And so when you when you relate that 589 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:31,000 Speaker 1: to leadership, what what can you tell us about conversational leadership? 590 00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:35,880 Speaker 1: Because you work on this now, you apply these philosophies 591 00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:40,440 Speaker 1: to working with people in leadership positions with companies, and 592 00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:45,040 Speaker 1: I wish there was more of this energy in those spaces. 593 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,120 Speaker 1: So how did that begin? And what is it that 594 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:52,759 Speaker 1: you're teaching these leaders to do? Well? Um, that's a 595 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 1: very very big topic. But um, you know, one one 596 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,239 Speaker 1: immediate thing I can think of is that when I'm 597 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:05,960 Speaker 1: talking about conversational leadership, I'm often you could just as 598 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:10,960 Speaker 1: well say invitational leadership. Just when you think about it. 599 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,719 Speaker 1: If you've ever had a boss, or I suppose in 600 00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,200 Speaker 1: your case as an actress at an actor a director, 601 00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,520 Speaker 1: you know, one of the first things you're looking for 602 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:25,800 Speaker 1: in leadership from that person is is their invitation. You 603 00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:29,840 Speaker 1: want to know what what invitation is this person making 604 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:37,880 Speaker 1: to me? And one of the existential disappointments around leadership 605 00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 1: is when you find they're making absolutely no invitation at 606 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,439 Speaker 1: all to you. They're so caught up in their own 607 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,680 Speaker 1: lives and in their own defensive postures, and they're so 608 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:53,960 Speaker 1: afraid or that they actually aren't making any invitation to 609 00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,680 Speaker 1: you at all. And that's that's one of the most 610 00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:02,920 Speaker 1: dispiriting things in the workplace. And and then it's interesting 611 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,960 Speaker 1: to ask the question why is it so difficult for 612 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:12,000 Speaker 1: all of us to make invitations actually, And well, because 613 00:44:12,080 --> 00:44:16,359 Speaker 1: it's actually one of the ultimate forms of vulnerability. When 614 00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:19,480 Speaker 1: you make an invitation to someone else, they will always 615 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:23,240 Speaker 1: respond in a much larger way than you would first imagined. 616 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:26,960 Speaker 1: When you made your invitation. You know, and you know 617 00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:32,319 Speaker 1: that's true in the intermacies of of a love relationship. 618 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:38,000 Speaker 1: It's also true in an organizational sense. You if you 619 00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,279 Speaker 1: make a heartfelt invitation, it will always come back to 620 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 1: you in a way that breaks apart the identity that 621 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:50,880 Speaker 1: first made the invitation and started the conversation. Um. So 622 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: that really is an invitation not only to understanding, but 623 00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:00,640 Speaker 1: to self understanding. You have to actually to be a 624 00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,719 Speaker 1: good leader. You have to apprentice yourself to yourself. You 625 00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,640 Speaker 1: you have to find out where you're afraid of the world. 626 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,239 Speaker 1: You have to find out where you're reluctant to have 627 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,239 Speaker 1: the conversation, where you're not very good, and where other 628 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,480 Speaker 1: people might be better than you. You've only got one 629 00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:22,560 Speaker 1: pair of eyes, one pair of ears, one pair of 630 00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:27,319 Speaker 1: hands as a person, and one intellect and imagination. If 631 00:45:27,360 --> 00:45:31,760 Speaker 1: you're in an organization, you're surrounded by dozens of ears 632 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 1: and eyes and hands and intellects and imaginations. Yeah, there 633 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:38,759 Speaker 1: are many of those eyes that see better than you 634 00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:43,120 Speaker 1: do in certain directions. In other directions you see better 635 00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:49,680 Speaker 1: than them. But you try to bring in a ecology 636 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:54,600 Speaker 1: of qualities. So this is where you have to be 637 00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,800 Speaker 1: big and you know, one of the things we notice 638 00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:01,360 Speaker 1: in our present politic the leadership is the lack of 639 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:07,279 Speaker 1: generosity and bigness, you know, just the inability even ever 640 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,120 Speaker 1: to admit that you might be wrong, uh oh, that 641 00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:14,439 Speaker 1: you might have got something wrong. Um, that you need 642 00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:20,640 Speaker 1: other people in order to to do something well and competently. Yes, 643 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,480 Speaker 1: And isn't it in isn't it interesting? Because we do 644 00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:29,520 Speaker 1: know that as humans we need other people. We evolved 645 00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,120 Speaker 1: in a village, we evolved in an ecosystem, to your point, 646 00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:36,879 Speaker 1: and and I love that the the observation you make 647 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,680 Speaker 1: in your verbiage there goes back to your earlier work 648 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:44,920 Speaker 1: as as a scientist, because it's true, every living organism 649 00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,200 Speaker 1: in an ecosystem has a place and has a purpose. 650 00:46:48,880 --> 00:46:50,880 Speaker 1: And it it really reminds me that I was so 651 00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,239 Speaker 1: lucky to to work for a boss. Early in my career, 652 00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,800 Speaker 1: I worked for this lovely executive producer on a television 653 00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:01,239 Speaker 1: series who directed a lot of our episodes. And I 654 00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:05,279 Speaker 1: was shadowing him as a director to prepare for my 655 00:47:05,440 --> 00:47:09,440 Speaker 1: first foray into directing, and I was asking him about 656 00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,799 Speaker 1: what his biggest realizations have been, and he he said 657 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:17,320 Speaker 1: to me, my career as a leader changed when I 658 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:22,040 Speaker 1: realized the best idea always wins. And he said, whether 659 00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:25,200 Speaker 1: that's my idea, your idea, the idea of the Dolly 660 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:29,600 Speaker 1: Grip or the third Electrician, best idea always has to 661 00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: win because this is a team sport loveless. Yeah, and 662 00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:37,040 Speaker 1: that's a great example. Yes, mm hmmm. So is that 663 00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:40,279 Speaker 1: part of what you work on when when you're encouraging 664 00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,600 Speaker 1: leaders to be bigger, when you're reminding them that true 665 00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:49,560 Speaker 1: leadership requires generosity. Are are you asking them to get 666 00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:52,080 Speaker 1: vulnerable or perhaps teaching them how to do so in 667 00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,640 Speaker 1: the workplace while I do it through my art phone, 668 00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:57,839 Speaker 1: which is portray So I used poetry just as much 669 00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,880 Speaker 1: in the organization world as I do anywhere else. And 670 00:48:01,120 --> 00:48:07,080 Speaker 1: so the physicality of the poem um creates the experience 671 00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,320 Speaker 1: in the room. You're not talking about it in the abstract. 672 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:14,880 Speaker 1: So often, UM, my job is to actually create a 673 00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:20,080 Speaker 1: hunger to want to have the conversation. And that's half 674 00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:21,880 Speaker 1: the battle. If you can set that hunger for the 675 00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:27,720 Speaker 1: conversation up, Especially in men um, they get quite excited 676 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,759 Speaker 1: about having these courageous and difficult conversations. And I do 677 00:48:31,960 --> 00:48:35,480 Speaker 1: work with what I call the phenomenology of conversation, which 678 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,880 Speaker 1: is just a fancy way of saying what happens along 679 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,360 Speaker 1: the way when you try to have one? Ah, And 680 00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:46,520 Speaker 1: I've identified these seven steps, um, and that's the book 681 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,239 Speaker 1: I'm writing at this very desk right now. Actually is 682 00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:53,839 Speaker 1: it's called a timeless way. Seven steps were deepening any conversation, 683 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,400 Speaker 1: And they're steps, they're timeless steps, but I've kind of 684 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:03,480 Speaker 1: uncovered them in and put them in there in a sequence. 685 00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:07,080 Speaker 1: I suppose, Thank goodness, because i was about to say, 686 00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,280 Speaker 1: how do we learn? And I'm thrilled that you're writing 687 00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,320 Speaker 1: a book about this? Do you want to know what 688 00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:15,759 Speaker 1: the first step is? I would love to know what 689 00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:19,279 Speaker 1: the first step is. The first step in deepening the 690 00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,719 Speaker 1: conversation is to stop having the one you're having now, 691 00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,840 Speaker 1: just to stop it. Yeah, so and create a relationship 692 00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:36,160 Speaker 1: with silence. So and on it goes from there. Yeah. 693 00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:42,439 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. That's beautiful. Mm hmm. When you talk about 694 00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:47,080 Speaker 1: setting the space with a poem, using your art form 695 00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,719 Speaker 1: to encourage this, which truly does it stops any kind 696 00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:54,080 Speaker 1: of you know, quote workplace conversation these people are having 697 00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:56,640 Speaker 1: and you put them in their heart, you put people 698 00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,680 Speaker 1: in their bodies with poetry you put them in in 699 00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:03,560 Speaker 1: a or open emotional state. It happened to me when 700 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:05,399 Speaker 1: you read that poem to me just a moment ago, 701 00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:07,719 Speaker 1: I lost my place. It took me a second to 702 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,359 Speaker 1: recover and figure out what question I wanted to ask 703 00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:14,640 Speaker 1: you next. What do you think it is that makes 704 00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:19,520 Speaker 1: a great poem? Why do you think they affect us 705 00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:24,279 Speaker 1: that way? Mm hmm, Well, I always say one of 706 00:50:24,360 --> 00:50:28,319 Speaker 1: my definitions of poetry is that it's language against which 707 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:33,640 Speaker 1: we have no defenses. It's like when you just say 708 00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:36,640 Speaker 1: something exactly right to someone. You've been trying to say 709 00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,160 Speaker 1: it to them for years, and finally you say it 710 00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,680 Speaker 1: at exactly the right moment, in exactly the right way, 711 00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:46,080 Speaker 1: with exactly the right rhythm and cadence, and they hear 712 00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:55,040 Speaker 1: it M and you know they've heard it. Uh, that's portrait. Yeah. Um, 713 00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:59,359 Speaker 1: you've actually probably fallen into I am the pentameter. You've 714 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:03,160 Speaker 1: actually probably got a chorus in there where you've repeated 715 00:51:03,200 --> 00:51:07,320 Speaker 1: yourself for a couple of times. You know. Um, Poetry 716 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:11,520 Speaker 1: is not abstracted art form language. It's the way human 717 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:17,359 Speaker 1: beings speak on their emotional and intellectual edge. So you'll 718 00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:22,760 Speaker 1: often you'll often hear poetic diction in a good marital argument, 719 00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:34,160 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, emphasis, repetition and h and a voice 720 00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:39,240 Speaker 1: you know that's discovering what it's saying as it's going along, 721 00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:43,320 Speaker 1: covering that it knows something. And you know, in the 722 00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:49,520 Speaker 1: best marital argument, both sides of the argument. Here something new, 723 00:51:50,880 --> 00:51:53,600 Speaker 1: and once it's said, then the marriage can't go back 724 00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:57,719 Speaker 1: to where it was before because it's being said, you've 725 00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:01,279 Speaker 1: actually emancipated in yourself into a new articulation and a 726 00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:06,200 Speaker 1: new level of understanding. And that's exactly the same uh, 727 00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:09,759 Speaker 1: exactly the same dynamic in the writing of poetry. You're 728 00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,839 Speaker 1: trying to overhear yourself say something you didn't know you knew, 729 00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:17,279 Speaker 1: and it's couched in a way, often in a very 730 00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:22,640 Speaker 1: beautiful way, where it just pierces you and carries you off. 731 00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:30,840 Speaker 1: The language is just taking you and and got you 732 00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:34,920 Speaker 1: just beyond yourself here. That might this might be a 733 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:37,360 Speaker 1: good place to finish with the poem. Actually, yeah, I 734 00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,120 Speaker 1: would love that. I've I've got one last question for you, 735 00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:42,880 Speaker 1: and we can we can do that now where we 736 00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,960 Speaker 1: can do that at the very end. But maybe it's 737 00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:47,960 Speaker 1: better that I ask you now and then we finished 738 00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:53,160 Speaker 1: very end with your words. Okay, So my my favorite 739 00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:55,560 Speaker 1: and final question that I get to ask everyone is, 740 00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,000 Speaker 1: as you know, the podcast is called work in progress. 741 00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,720 Speaker 1: Always curious with my guests when you hear the phrase, 742 00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:06,280 Speaker 1: be it personal or professional, what is it that triggers 743 00:53:06,320 --> 00:53:09,520 Speaker 1: in your brain? What what comes up for you as 744 00:53:10,160 --> 00:53:12,600 Speaker 1: a work in progress in your life right now? A 745 00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:20,480 Speaker 1: work in progress? Um? Well, I there's two things come 746 00:53:20,560 --> 00:53:25,719 Speaker 1: to mind. One is, um, the kind of inner exploration, 747 00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:31,359 Speaker 1: and the the quarantine and the lockdown is very good 748 00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:33,160 Speaker 1: for me at the moment I'm sitting you know, I 749 00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:36,920 Speaker 1: sat then for many years chapter of my life we 750 00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:41,520 Speaker 1: didn't speak about today. But so I'm getting back on 751 00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:45,759 Speaker 1: the black cushion every day. And that's a powerful magnifier 752 00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:51,360 Speaker 1: of of inner ex exploration and dropping dropping below the 753 00:53:51,520 --> 00:53:59,160 Speaker 1: verbal and into this formless but incredibly present state. So 754 00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:01,720 Speaker 1: that's very sighting at the moment for me, that feels 755 00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:06,880 Speaker 1: like wonderful work that I've returned to. But that is 756 00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:10,919 Speaker 1: a really progressing in a very very powerful and magnified way. 757 00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:16,520 Speaker 1: And then the other working progress is this this book 758 00:54:16,760 --> 00:54:20,239 Speaker 1: conversational you know, these sudden steps for deepening any conversation. 759 00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:22,919 Speaker 1: And I just feel like I've got to the place 760 00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,640 Speaker 1: where I just want to write it in an incredibly 761 00:54:25,719 --> 00:54:29,520 Speaker 1: simple way. So it's rather than it being a work 762 00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:32,040 Speaker 1: of art on my part, although hopefully it will be, 763 00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:37,280 Speaker 1: it's just something that is absolutely clear and helpful to people. 764 00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:43,279 Speaker 1: So so I'm quite excited about the kind of invitation 765 00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:47,480 Speaker 1: to radical simplicity and in in the writing of that 766 00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:53,120 Speaker 1: book at the moment. So exciting, all right, lovely, And 767 00:54:53,239 --> 00:54:56,560 Speaker 1: if there is a poem you'd like to uh give 768 00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:58,920 Speaker 1: us in parting, I would love that. And if that 769 00:54:59,120 --> 00:55:04,120 Speaker 1: doesn't feel right, it's okay too, Yes, I'll This seemed 770 00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:12,840 Speaker 1: to follow on from from the question earlier getting over yourself, 771 00:55:13,320 --> 00:55:18,520 Speaker 1: And um, I think one of the one of the 772 00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:22,760 Speaker 1: difficulties in life is that when we get very competent 773 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:26,520 Speaker 1: at something, we start to actually go into a dynamic 774 00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:30,880 Speaker 1: of impersonation. After a while, we get so you we 775 00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:34,759 Speaker 1: get so used to being that competent person, whether it's 776 00:55:34,760 --> 00:55:38,120 Speaker 1: a competent style of poetry, or a competent musician, or 777 00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:42,600 Speaker 1: a competent style of acting or and in order to progress, 778 00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:49,000 Speaker 1: you have to kind of undo yourself. Uh you don't 779 00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:53,640 Speaker 1: realize it, but you've started this processes of impersonation, and 780 00:55:53,960 --> 00:55:58,560 Speaker 1: the impersonation is incredibly subtle because you're actually impersonating yourself. 781 00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:05,120 Speaker 1: You don't realize it's actually you've actually moved on, but 782 00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:08,640 Speaker 1: you don't know. But you don't really know that you've 783 00:56:08,680 --> 00:56:11,560 Speaker 1: moved on. So so this is an invitation. It's called 784 00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:16,440 Speaker 1: just beyond yourself. M hmm, to that place, yeah, just 785 00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:19,600 Speaker 1: beyond yourself, Just beyond yourself. It's where you need to be, 786 00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:23,920 Speaker 1: just beyond yourself. It's where you need to be half 787 00:56:24,120 --> 00:56:29,000 Speaker 1: a step into self forgetting and the rest restored by 788 00:56:29,120 --> 00:56:33,359 Speaker 1: what you'll meet. Just beyond yourself, it's where you need 789 00:56:33,440 --> 00:56:37,759 Speaker 1: to be half a step into self forgetting and the 790 00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:43,960 Speaker 1: rest restored by what you'll meet. There's a road always beckoning, 791 00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:48,160 Speaker 1: as a road always beckoning when you see the two 792 00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:52,080 Speaker 1: sides of it closing together at that far horizon and 793 00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:56,640 Speaker 1: deep in the foundations of your own heart at exactly 794 00:56:56,719 --> 00:57:01,200 Speaker 1: the same time, That's how you know it's where you 795 00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:04,879 Speaker 1: have to go. That's how you know it's the road 796 00:57:05,239 --> 00:57:08,800 Speaker 1: you have to follow. That's how you know it's just 797 00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:15,799 Speaker 1: beyond yourself. It's where you need to be. The show 798 00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:19,360 Speaker 1: is executive produced by me Sophia Bush and sim Sarna. 799 00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:24,240 Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Kate Linlee, our editor is Josh Wendish, 800 00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:27,080 Speaker 1: and our music was written by Jack Garrett and produced 801 00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:29,760 Speaker 1: by Mark Foster. This show is brought to you by 802 00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:30,840 Speaker 1: the Brilliant Anatomy