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Speaker 1: Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan Debbie Collier. I can't

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Speaker 1: say that name without scratching my head a little bit,

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Speaker 1: because arguably her death is one of the most bizarre

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Speaker 1: that certainly I've covered in the past I don't know,

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Speaker 1: two years probably, and now we have some answers, and

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Speaker 1: today we're going to talk about this update involving the

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Speaker 1: death of this fifty nine year old office manager from Georgia.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs. Wow.

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Speaker 1: Am I glad to have my buddy Dave Mac with

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Speaker 1: me today. Dave is a crime reporter for Crime Online.

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Speaker 1: This case is something that we've covered I don't know

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Speaker 1: for several months now, I think, and certainly it left

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Speaker 1: us all a bit fuddled. I think because just in

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Speaker 1: and of itself, the fact that her death was so

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Speaker 1: closely associated with a fire, it was in isolation, kind

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Speaker 1: of a very remote area, and there was nothing apparently

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Speaker 1: stolen or missing from her. It was just this kind

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Speaker 1: of standalone event that's had a lot of people really

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Speaker 1: really asking a lot of questions. I don't know, do

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Speaker 1: we actually have answers now? I think we have some.

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Speaker 1: She's a fifty nine year old who worked as an

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Speaker 1: office manager for a real estate company in Athens, Georgia. Athens,

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Speaker 1: Georgia is outside of Atlanta. It's where the Georgia Bulldogs play,

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Speaker 1: and that does come into play here. Okay, So from

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Speaker 1: a timeline of events, on September tenth, Debbie Collier sent

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Speaker 1: a Venmo payment to her daughter at three seventeen PM.

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Speaker 1: That Venmo payment was for two three hundred and eighty

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Speaker 1: five dollars and it had a cryptic message, they are

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Speaker 1: not going to let me go love you. There is

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Speaker 1: a key to the house in the blue flower pot

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Speaker 1: by the door. It's set off alarm bells because her daughter,

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Speaker 1: Amanda was not expecting this payment. From all we can

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Speaker 1: find out, Debbie Collier had never sent a payment that

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Speaker 1: large through Venmo. That's what started all of this. Amanda

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Speaker 1: calls her dad, Debbie's husband. He's been parking cars for

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Speaker 1: the Georgia Bulldocks football game since nine o'clock that morning.

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Speaker 1: He gets home around four and they start talking try

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Speaker 1: to figure out what happened. Around six o'clock, they call

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Speaker 1: nine one one. We don't know where she is, we

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Speaker 1: haven't seen her, and we have this crazy message. It

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Speaker 1: was the next day, September eleventh, investigators find her car.

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Speaker 1: She had a rental van because her car hit was

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Speaker 1: in the shop. She'd been in a car wreck, so

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Speaker 1: she's driving a rental van and they used the series

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Speaker 1: XM radio in that rental van the Habersham County Sheriff's office.

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Speaker 1: They alerted deputies to the location of this Chrysler Pacifica

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Speaker 1: that she had rented, and boom, they were able to

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Speaker 1: find the vehicle. It's about an hour, about sixty miles

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Speaker 1: away from her home, in an area that she didn't

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Speaker 1: normally go. They find her car, and then they find

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Speaker 1: her body. It's down a ravine. She's holding on to

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Speaker 1: a small tree branch. She's dead. There is obviously been

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Speaker 1: a fire, and she's partially clothed the burn. If you remember, Joe,

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Speaker 1: we were told the burning was on her stomach. Well,

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Speaker 1: the timeline of events, we know that she did stop

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Speaker 1: at a family dollar shore a couple of miles away

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Speaker 1: from where her body was found prior to her death, obviously,

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Speaker 1: and she bought some items. Those items were all found

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Speaker 1: at the location where her body was. So from a

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Speaker 1: timeline standpoint, we know where she was, we know what

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Speaker 1: she was doing prior to her death. We don't know why,

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Speaker 1: but we know what and where. So here we go.

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Speaker 1: They've told us from the beginning, partially burned, partially clad.

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Speaker 1: The burning is on her stomach. They released this autopsy

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Speaker 1: report and Joe's got Morgan. I'm begging you to tell

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Speaker 1: us what it means, because I'm reading this and I'm

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Speaker 1: going somebody's lying super bizarre stuff. First off, let's go

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Speaker 1: back you had mentioned. You know, we've gotten several different

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Speaker 1: reports in regards to Miss Collier's death relative to the

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Speaker 1: status of the clothing. You know, clothing is something that

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Speaker 1: we'd look at. We begin to think about what was

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Speaker 1: the status of the clothing. First off, were they clothed?

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Speaker 1: And the first thing that comes up when you think

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Speaker 1: about these things, and I'm not saying that this happened

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Speaker 1: in this case, but when you associate someone being absent clothing,

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Speaker 1: particularly a lady, you're automatically thinking, well, there was some

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Speaker 1: kind of assault that had taken place, some kind of

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Speaker 1: potential sexual assault. When I hear this initially and they're saying, well,

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Speaker 1: she was clothed, we've heard clothes, and we've heard partially clothed,

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Speaker 1: and we've heard naked, and so you know, it's hard

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Speaker 1: to kind of make sense of that. What I have

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Speaker 1: heard now was that there was some remnant of clothing

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Speaker 1: at least beneath her legs, possibly charred. That clothing remnant

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Speaker 1: that is there You begin to ask these questions first off,

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Speaker 1: or these trousers that she had on, pants, jeans, whatever

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Speaker 1: the case might be, and can they be tied back

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Speaker 1: to her. Many times, when you find a body that is, say,

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Speaker 1: for instance, in a prone position where they're laying on

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Speaker 1: their belly, or you have an individual that's in a

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Speaker 1: soupon position where they're laying on their back and they

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Speaker 1: haven't been moved at all, and they're wearing clothing. The

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Speaker 1: clothing on the top side involving a fire will at

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Speaker 1: least completely or partially be burned away. But sometimes if

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Speaker 1: you look beneath them, those areas are protected from the

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Speaker 1: flame the heat, and you can have sometimes tags that

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Speaker 1: you can examine, you can match up sizes, all those

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Speaker 1: sorts of things. But there's something else that you look

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Speaker 1: for with clothing and fire, and this is significant in

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Speaker 1: this case. That is, when you collect this clothing and

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Speaker 1: it is associated with fire, we actually take clothing in

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Speaker 1: cases of our sun, that sort of thing, and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't just have to be clothed, it can be other items,

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Speaker 1: and we put them in these the only way I

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Speaker 1: can really describe them are these metallic paint cans. And

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Speaker 1: you say, wow, that's interesting. Yeah, So we use these

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Speaker 1: for evidence collection. And what happens is is that if

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Speaker 1: there is any accelerant and when I say accelerant, I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about lighter, fluid certainly gasoline, kerosene, any of these

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Speaker 1: types of elements, as the clothing begins to settle into

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Speaker 1: the bottom of the can because of gravity, the fumes,

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Speaker 1: if there's anything left, begins to rise to the top

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Speaker 1: of that can internally, and a big I don't know's

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Speaker 1: it's hard to kind of describe for folks, but just

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Speaker 1: understand that it looks like a gigantic needle is inserted

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Speaker 1: into the top of that can and the air within

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Speaker 1: the can is drawn off in the lab and then

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Speaker 1: once that air is drawn off, guess what they can do?

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Speaker 1: They begin to test it. And we know that the

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Speaker 1: vapors from an accelerat I mean, we've all smelled cass right,

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Speaker 1: or maybe charcoal, light or fluid, maybe kerosene has a

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Speaker 1: particular odor, right, so it's in a gaseous state. You

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Speaker 1: can smell it. That's something that can't be quantified. Smell

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Speaker 1: is we can qualify it, say gee, that smells like gas.

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Speaker 1: But what we want our measurements. We want to get

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Speaker 1: a specific chemical identity. They're talking about that there was

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Speaker 1: a melted gas can in the immediate vicinity of her body.

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Speaker 1: So I want to know if the gas that may

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Speaker 1: have been associated with that melted gas can, if there

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Speaker 1: was anything left from that is associated with any kind

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Speaker 1: of accelerant that may have been on her clothing, and

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Speaker 1: try to marry that up. That's one part of this

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Speaker 1: along the way, the evident try issue that's separate from

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Speaker 1: the body itself, because you know, when you begin to

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Speaker 1: look at what they're saying, at least was revealed in

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Speaker 1: this autopsy report that was released by the State of Georgia,

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Speaker 1: and this is very curious. They're saying that the burns

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Speaker 1: that she has on the body. Remember you'd mentioned this day,

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Speaker 1: you talked about how they had initially talked about how

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Speaker 1: she had burning on her abdomen, and that was kind

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Speaker 1: of it was kind of very limited at that moment time.

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Speaker 1: But now they're talking they're using terms like leathery skin.

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Speaker 1: That what they're driving at here. When they're talking about

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Speaker 1: leathery skin, they're talking about desiccated skin. Skin that's that

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Speaker 1: is absent any kind of moisture. It's dried out, and

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Speaker 1: it's dried out as a result of being exposed to

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Speaker 1: intense heat. Also, we grade burns in degrees. We've all

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Speaker 1: heard about this first, second, third. You know that there's

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Speaker 1: even a fourth degree burning. You generally see it with

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Speaker 1: individuals that are deceased. They don't talk about fourth degree

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Speaker 1: burning in here, but they do talk about second third.

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Speaker 1: Guess where the concentration is, Well, it's her head and

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Speaker 1: her face and quite possibly the upper chest. So what

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Speaker 1: does that tell us, Well, it tells us that there

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Speaker 1: was a heavy concentration of some type of accelerant or

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Speaker 1: fuel source that was adjacent to that. Because listen, people

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Speaker 1: know what it's like to actually touch a stove or

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Speaker 1: get burned as a result of running your hand or

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Speaker 1: a flame. You get burned, but it's not burning like

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Speaker 1: when we think about something that is a continual, constant

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Speaker 1: fuel source for fire. Human tissue cannot sustain that. It

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Speaker 1: just can't. You would have to have something else there

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Speaker 1: that would lead to a third degree burned. This is

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Speaker 1: very intense, and you're starting to get down into not

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Speaker 1: just the epidermis, in the dermis. Now you're starting to

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Speaker 1: get into potentially the subcue fat, which is that layer

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Speaker 1: just below the top layer of skin. Her hair is

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Speaker 1: probably missing her face as hensely burned in her upper chest,

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Speaker 1: so that means that more than likely the accelerant was

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Speaker 1: on top of her body, the top of her head,

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Speaker 1: maybe had run down her face at some point in time.

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Speaker 1: I think the big question is is this something that

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Speaker 1: she did to herself sitting there on the ground where

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Speaker 1: she takes a container of gasoline and pours it on

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Speaker 1: top of her head and then initiates the flame by

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Speaker 1: striking a match or lighting a lighter, which is something

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Speaker 1: they haven't talked about the presence of. Or is this

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Speaker 1: something that somebody else did to her. In cases that

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Speaker 1: I've worked where I have people that have been burned,

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Speaker 1: and certainly relative to homicize, many times burning is used

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Speaker 1: in order to cover up anything that is left behind.

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Speaker 1: But is it actually used as a means to bring

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Speaker 1: about one's on death? Well, there are cases out there

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Speaker 1: like that. You know, this is generally referred to as

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Speaker 1: self immolation. But here's the key. Most of the time,

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Speaker 1: when people self immolate, their doused in gasoline or some

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Speaker 1: type of other accelerant and they set themselves on fire,

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Speaker 1: you're going to have a product that is produced relative

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Speaker 1: to this burning. That's going to be your own body,

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Speaker 1: where you have hair and skin that's initially burned, any

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Speaker 1: clothing that's there, and any other item that immediately surround

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Speaker 1: the person. Say that they've put a fuel source on

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Speaker 1: top of them, like wood or something like this to

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Speaker 1: maintain the burning, and then they douse themselves with an

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Speaker 1: accelerant set themselves on fire, you would find remnant of that.

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Speaker 1: And Dave, she was found in a wooded area, so

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Speaker 1: we would expect when we open up her body at

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Speaker 1: autopsy that we would find particularly in the trachea and

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Speaker 1: that's our windpipe essentially, and into our nose, in our mouth,

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Speaker 1: into the windpipe, into the lungs, you would expect to

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Speaker 1: find evidence of debris. Dave, it ain't there, brother, So

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Speaker 1: does that mean that she was burned after she died.

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Speaker 1: That's a question that has not been answered. They're ruling

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Speaker 1: it as a suicide. Yea, they are ruling it as

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Speaker 1: a suicide. We have this kind of lining. If you

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Speaker 1: just think about the interior of your mouth, you just

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Speaker 1: kind of run your tongue around the interior of your mouth.

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Speaker 1: It's not too dissimilar from the same surface that you

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Speaker 1: have down into your airway. It's mucoid, very soft and fleshy,

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Speaker 1: and you look for debris in this area. But you

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Speaker 1: also look for what they referred to as an inflammatory response.

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Speaker 1: And they're saying that there is this area in her

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Speaker 1: trachea that would be indicative of inhalation of superheated gas. Okay,

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Speaker 1: superheated gas. So when people inhale and there's intense flame

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Speaker 1: around them, remember we're trying to uptake oxygen every single

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Speaker 1: second of the day. That's what we do in order

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Speaker 1: to survive. Even in the midst of a very intense fire,

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Speaker 1: you're inhaling to try to grab that oxen it's there.

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Speaker 1: And what does fire sek out, Well, it seeks out

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Speaker 1: oxygen as fuel source. It thrives on oxygen. It's consuming

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Speaker 1: all of the oxygen in the environment. So was she

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Speaker 1: literally inhaling the superheated gas. That's being generated by the fire.

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Speaker 1: The problem is this, it could not have been sustainable,

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Speaker 1: all right, It would not have been in a sustainable event.

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Speaker 1: And so they're talking about her inhaling superheated gas and

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Speaker 1: that that brought about her death. It brought about her

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Speaker 1: death that quickly after a certain amount of tom that

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Speaker 1: event is going to pass, and she would still continue

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Speaker 1: to breed, you would think unless she went into some

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Speaker 1: kind of associated sudden cardiac event. I'm not talking about

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Speaker 1: having a heart attack, a mile cardial infarction, That's not

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Speaker 1: what I'm talking about. But you can get yourself into

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Speaker 1: this position where essentially your heart will stop as a

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Speaker 1: result of being exposed to this kind of trauma. Is

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Speaker 1: that what they're actually saying, because right now that's really

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Speaker 1: the only thing they have to hang their hand on.

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Speaker 1: And let me ask you this. Joe I mentioned in

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Speaker 1: setting up the timeline that Debbie Collier had gone to

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Speaker 1: a family dollar store and made very specific purchases. Again,

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Speaker 1: we're talking sixty miles away from her house, and she's

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Speaker 1: at a family dollar store she doesn't normally go to.

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Speaker 1: She buys a blue tarp, red toebag, paper towels, a

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Speaker 1: torch lighter, and a poncho. Those were the things she

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Speaker 1: purchased at the family dollar store, and all these items

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Speaker 1: were found in the area of her body and the fire.

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Speaker 1: My question is this. They've ruled it a suicide, and

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Speaker 1: as you mentioned, saying it was the inhalation of the

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Speaker 1: superheated gases thermal injuries. They've also mentioned other things. But

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Speaker 1: I poured gas in my ditch to burn leaves one time,

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Speaker 1: and I had a whole bunch of leaves and I

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Speaker 1: poured too much gas. Okay, I let it soak in

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Speaker 1: a minute. I didn't realize how stupid I was being.

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Speaker 1: When I lit the leaves. It was an immediate explosion

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Speaker 1: and it knocked me down and shocked me. And had

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Speaker 1: I been closer to the leaves, I would have been burned.

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Speaker 1: If their theory of what happened is true, could it

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Speaker 1: have been that she was in some state of mind

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Speaker 1: where she bought these items. She has a gas can

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Speaker 1: that is also on the scene. As you mentioned, she

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Speaker 1: pours gas over something and leaning over, she doesn't realize

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Speaker 1: the power that this gas is going to have on her,

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Speaker 1: and she lights it and does what happened to me

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Speaker 1: in my front yard. I guess that that's certainly a possibility. However,

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Speaker 1: I have to go back and state that you were

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Speaker 1: talking about third degree burned, so this would not have

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Speaker 1: been I think that probably you might expect to see

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Speaker 1: a second degree event visualized on the surface of her skin.

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Speaker 1: You're starting to talk about third degree burning. That almost

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Speaker 1: implies that there was extended exposure to the flame in

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Speaker 1: order to achieve that level of trauma. And maybe that's

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Speaker 1: a residual effect of if she had been doused in

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Speaker 1: the flame and that there was an initial flash over

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Speaker 1: where she inhalated the superheated gas, the remnant of the

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Speaker 1: accelerant would still have to burn off of her skin

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Speaker 1: at that point in time. Maybe that's an answer. I

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Speaker 1: don't know that there's really enough to hang your hat on,

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Speaker 1: and we haven't seen the actual autopsy report because it

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Speaker 1: hasn't been made public at this point in time. However,

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Speaker 1: there are individuals that are commenting on it in the press.

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Speaker 1: Obviously they've seen it. You think about this and you think, well,

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Speaker 1: is there something else here? But according to one line

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Speaker 1: in the autopsy report, allegedly they're talking about what the

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Speaker 1: police saw, and the police are essentially opining that she

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Speaker 1: was there by herself, and that's really and that that's

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Speaker 1: an indication to them at least that this was a suicide.

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Speaker 1: So you're telling me that's you're going with that, and

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Speaker 1: that's what you're going to hang your hat on. And

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Speaker 1: apparently that's the decision that was made by virtue of

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Speaker 1: that the medical examiner made that decision based upon what

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Speaker 1: the police did or didn't see at the scene. One

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Speaker 1: other thing that's important here to remember. At autopsy, there

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Speaker 1: is a test that is run. It's called a carboxy

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Speaker 1: hemoglobin level, and you do it with a blood draw.

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Speaker 1: What you're looking for is the uptake of carbon in

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Speaker 1: the system and how it kind of gets into the bloodstream.

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Speaker 1: This gives an indication of protracted exposure because now you're

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Speaker 1: beginning to metabolize some of the stuff that's in the

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Speaker 1: air and floating around. And again when they inhale eco

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Speaker 1: systemic at that point in time, guess what carboxy hemoglobin

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Speaker 1: level was not going to say it was nil, but

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Speaker 1: it was, according to them, apparently within normal ranges of

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Speaker 1: what people would have in them on a regular day.

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Speaker 1: When we have cases where people have been exposed to

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Speaker 1: fire and they're in homes, say, for instance, where the

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Speaker 1: home is kind of collapsing around them they're struggling to

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Speaker 1: get out. Their carboxy hemoglobin level will in fact be

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Speaker 1: elevated because they're inhaling these noxious gases that are in

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Speaker 1: the environment in which they normally dwell, so that gives

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Speaker 1: you an idea of long term exposure. The absence of

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Speaker 1: a significant carboxy hemoglobin level in her blood would suggest

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Speaker 1: that this was a very quick event. One things that

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Speaker 1: they did find in her system, and this is not

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Speaker 1: completely unexpected, is that she had hydrocdone in her system

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Speaker 1: and she had been taking this I think, if I

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Speaker 1: remember correctly, as a result of some kind of back

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Speaker 1: pain that she had had for a protracted period of time.

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Speaker 1: She was under medical care because chronic pain from a

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Speaker 1: back injury that she had lived with for a long time.

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Speaker 1: And it's interesting because in November, when all of this

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Speaker 1: first came out about inhalation of superheated gases and thermal

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Speaker 1: injuries and hydro codone intoxication, that was what we were told,

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Speaker 1: and now that the autopsy has come out. This is

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Speaker 1: according to a source from Fox five in Atlanta, saying

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Speaker 1: although she had a prescription for the opioid pain killer.

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Speaker 1: The hydrocodone levels in her system surpassed the expected amount

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Speaker 1: roughly four times over. We've also heard her report You

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Speaker 1: and I both heard the same report that they were

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Speaker 1: at therapeutic levels. That's a confusion there, But I don't

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Speaker 1: know how much that would come into play. If you've

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Speaker 1: got eighty percent of her body burned, second and third

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Speaker 1: degree burns, as you've just indicated, that would have killed her. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So which is it, I think is a big question

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Speaker 1: relative to these the levels of the hydrocodone. Wouldn't you

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Speaker 1: expect somebody to be burned after they were dead that

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Speaker 1: and doesn't this is there an indication that the burning

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Speaker 1: took place after death? That's hard to surmas based upon

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Speaker 1: the information that is coming in. If you're going to

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Speaker 1: have post mortem burning, that is, after death, you're not

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Speaker 1: going to have any evidence in the airway that they

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Speaker 1: have been inhaling anything. However, the one kind of bumping

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Speaker 1: the road with that is they have this change in

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Speaker 1: the tissue surfaces of her trachea that gives an indication

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Speaker 1: that she was exposed to these superheated gases, and that's

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Speaker 1: how they're coming back to this point that it's an

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Speaker 1: exposure two superheated gases and that she inhaled it for

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Speaker 1: a moment and it's brought about her death. And oh,

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Speaker 1: by the way, she's also got hydro code on on

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Speaker 1: board and that's actually listed. It's like one of the

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Speaker 1: contributing factors here. So you kind of picked your poison

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Speaker 1: here along the way as to what you're going to

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Speaker 1: call this their default position on the manner of death.

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Speaker 1: And as we've talked about on bodybags, there's five of

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Speaker 1: them that you can choose from. Well, can we look

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Speaker 1: at this and say that it's an accident? I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean, is it possible that she accidentally set this fire?

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Speaker 1: And what would be the purpose of her setting and

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Speaker 1: fire in this location? Is there evidence that this is

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Speaker 1: some type of natural event. Well, no, they're not saying

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Speaker 1: anything about that. We're not talking about, you know, heart

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Speaker 1: disease or something else that you associated in the natural

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Speaker 1: world that in some kind of natural disease pathology. They're

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Speaker 1: not discussing that. What they are saying is that she

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Speaker 1: had hydrocat on on board and she was exposed to

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Speaker 1: superheated gases. That's what they're going with. As their cause

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Speaker 1: of death, and their default position in this case is

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Speaker 1: going to be suicide. They're not arriving at any other

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Speaker 1: conclusion other than she doused herself apparently in gas and

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Speaker 1: set herself on fire. She happened to have the substance

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Speaker 1: in her system, and all of those things playing together

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Speaker 1: wound up in her death, and they're going to rule

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Speaker 1: this as a suicide and they're going to close this case. Dave,

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Speaker 1: we're not flippant in talking about suicide. If you or

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Speaker 1: somebody you know is suffering through anything that leads you

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Speaker 1: to think that maybe it's time to just call an

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Speaker 1: end to life as it is, please call the National

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Speaker 1: Suicide Prevention Lifeline at one eight hundred two seven three talk.

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Speaker 1: That's one eight hundred two seventy three eight two five five.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes people will take a permanent fix for a temporary problem.

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Speaker 1: In this particular case, Joe, where they've really a suicide

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Speaker 1: saying she took her own life, I have to question.

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Speaker 1: She's holding on to a small thing coming out of

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Speaker 1: the ground. Her body is found down aways from where

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Speaker 1: the fire was. She's holding that tree with her hand

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Speaker 1: and she now we're being told burned over eighty percent

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Speaker 1: of her body. There are certain things that stick out

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Speaker 1: to me. And I'm just a journalist, Joe, you're a

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Speaker 1: professional at this. Does this sound or look like anything

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Speaker 1: you've ever heard would be a suicide. I have worked

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Speaker 1: cases of self emolation, but they ve gotta tell you,

389
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Speaker 1: as my granny would say, they're rare as hens teeth.

390
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: It's it's not something that you encounter, not like when

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Speaker 1: you're talking about suicides. You're talking about self inflicted gunshot wounds.

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Speaker 1: You're talking about hangings. Every now and then you'll have

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Speaker 1: drug gods. You find more, believe it or not, self

394
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Speaker 1: inflicted gunshot wounds and hangings than you do drug odes.

395
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Speaker 1: In my experience, in my little slice of the bid

396
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Speaker 1: self immolation, just thinking back right now over my career

397
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Speaker 1: work in the corner of the medical examor over the

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Speaker 1: course of my career too, I think, and then peripherally

399
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Speaker 1: with colleagues maybe maybe in total, maybe four. So that's

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Speaker 1: what makes this so bizarre for those of us that

401
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Speaker 1: work in forensics. When you hear that you have a

402
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Speaker 1: case like this of self immolation, I'll put it to

403
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Speaker 1: you this way. This case is the type of case

404
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 1: that you would go to a forens at conference and

405
00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: you would actually see papers presented on that's how significant

406
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Speaker 1: this is. I think one final thing when police are

407
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Speaker 1: covering something like this, Joe, I mean when you're saying

408
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Speaker 1: that you haven't seen that it's such a rare occurrence

409
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Speaker 1: when police officers are investigating something along these lines and

410
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Speaker 1: release information to the public. As we were told, at first,

411
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Speaker 1: the burning seemed to be minor and it was limited

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Speaker 1: to her stomach, and now we find out that it's

413
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Speaker 1: eighty percent of her body. Her face couldn't be identified.

414
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Speaker 1: Do police sometimes downplay what they've seen to the public

415
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Speaker 1: to spare the family or just because it's not fitting

416
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Speaker 1: to a certain degree, yeah, they will. I think most

417
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Speaker 1: of the time when police are making decisions about what

418
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: will and will not be released Haramont, among all things

419
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: for them is to not compromise the case. If they

420
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Speaker 1: have information that they would not like released to the

421
00:25:56,040 --> 00:26:00,160
Speaker 1: general public because they suspect that this is something there

422
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 1: than as advertised. That's generally what their goal is, to

423
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Speaker 1: keep it from the general public and our working premise.

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Speaker 1: And I know many people in our audience have heard

425
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: this term, and I use it when I teach our

426
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Speaker 1: working premise is that all deaths, not some, not a few,

427
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Speaker 1: but all deaths are homicides until proven otherwise, and we

428
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: have to we have to be skeptical. We have to

429
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: assume that it is other than what we're seeing, because

430
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: if you if you don't cover all of your bases

431
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 1: and treat it with the same degree of care as

432
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,399
Speaker 1: you would a homicide from the beginning, you're going to

433
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: miss something. You know, and early on I think that

434
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,720
Speaker 1: in miss Collier's case, you know, they did, in fact

435
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: treat it as though it was a homicide. Certainly, I

436
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 1: think because it's so bizarre, it's such an outlier you

437
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: find bodies that are burned. Again, I go back to

438
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 1: my earlier supposition that you have this isolated event where

439
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 1: you have a body kind of lying out there in

440
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: the woods and let's face it, in in a very isolated

441
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 1: area out of you. Automatically you're going to think, well, wow,

442
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: somebody has brought her out here, they've doused her and gas,

443
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,920
Speaker 1: they've done something to her, and they're trying to cover

444
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 1: their tracks. But apparently based upon what the police concluded

445
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 1: from the scene, and now that we've got this autopsy report,

446
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: based upon what the medical examiner as ruling says, they

447
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: don't think that it's a homicide, but we still don't know. No,

448
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: we still don't. We don't know why she sent two thousand,

449
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 1: three hundred and eighty five dollars by Venmo. We don't

450
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 1: know what the cryptic message meant. They're not going to

451
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: let me go. Some people have alluded to the fact

452
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 1: that she's got meds on board and that maybe that

453
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: had something to do with it. Really well, I mean,

454
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: she's been taking this medication regularly. Was there any other

455
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: substance in her system. Was it combined with alcohol? I

456
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 1: don't know, because all they're talking about right now at

457
00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:56,760
Speaker 1: this point that we can see at the time that

458
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 1: this is being recorded is that she had your code

459
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:03,199
Speaker 1: on board. And again the level is questionable. We have

460
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: some people saying that it's it's above normal therapeutic levels,

461
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 1: and we have other people saying that, well, it's well

462
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:13,720
Speaker 1: within the parameters of survivability, if you will. So hard

463
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: to say, but I do know this, out of all

464
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: the cases that we've covered on body backs, this is

465
00:28:19,480 --> 00:28:25,159
Speaker 1: certainly one more curious. If you or somebody you know

466
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 1: is suffering through anything that leads you to think that

467
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,199
Speaker 1: maybe it's time to just calling into life as it is.

468
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 1: Please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at one eight

469
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: hundred two seven three talk. That's one eight hundred two

470
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: seven three eight two five five. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan

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00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: and this is body Backs