Speaker 1: On eighteenth, nineteen ninety eight, a woman named Rachel claims
Speaker 1: to have seen her neighbors Julius Graves and Charlie Winbush talking.
Speaker 1: Charleik was telling her fiance Graves about how a man
Speaker 1: named Lee run Chen, who worked at the Chinese restaurant
Speaker 1: up the block Mister Hinks, had touched her inappropriately. Graves
Speaker 1: replied that he would scare him. Later that day, Julius Graves,
Speaker 1: his fiance's cousin, and another younger friend had a few
Speaker 1: drinks with Graves's friend, Anthony Simms as they listened to
Speaker 1: music by Anthony's car. As the evening wrapped up, Graves
Speaker 1: asked Anthony to drive him down the block to mister Hinks.
Speaker 1: Oblivious to any issue with Chen, Anthony agreed. They went
Speaker 1: into the restaurant, when it is believed that Graves shot
Speaker 1: and killed Lee run Chen. In shock, Anthony fled alone
Speaker 1: while Graves and the two younger guys returned to Graves's apartment,
Speaker 1: wiped the gun clean, figured out where to stash it,
Speaker 1: and began to conjure up a story to deflect blame
Speaker 1: from Graves and on Anthony Simms. With Graves at a
Speaker 1: number of his friends and family supporting this phony narrative,
Speaker 1: investigators set their sights on Anthony. Only one witness came
Speaker 1: forward independently who was neither coerced nor friends and family
Speaker 1: of Julius Graves, Graves's neighbor Rachel, who was on the
Speaker 1: phone outside of mister Hins during the shooting and saw
Speaker 1: Graves running from the restaurant with a soft off shotgun
Speaker 1: in his hand. Yet her statement was ignored by investigators
Speaker 1: and hidden from the defense, and as a result, Anthony
Speaker 1: Simms continues to serve twenty five years to life. This
Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to wrongful
Speaker 1: conviction with Jason Flamm. That's me and today if you
Speaker 1: hear my voice, sounds sort of down. I mean, this
Speaker 1: is one of the most troubling wrongful conviction cases that
Speaker 1: I've ever seen in twenty eight years of doing this work,
Speaker 1: which is almost as long as Anthony Simms has been
Speaker 1: locked up for a crime he obviously didn't commit. First
Speaker 1: of all, I want to introduce the two attorneys who
Speaker 1: are so devoted to this case and to this man,
Speaker 1: Jonathan Hiles and Thomas Hoffman. Thank you both for being here.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 3: Thank you for doing.
Speaker 1: This Jason, and now of course saving the best for last.
Speaker 1: And I'm just so sorry that you're here under these circumstances.
Speaker 1: But I'm honestly honored that you're here with us today
Speaker 1: on the podcast. So Anthony Simms, welcome to Rawful Conviction.
Speaker 1: And Anthony, of course, is now a forty five year
Speaker 1: old man, twenty four years into a twenty five to
Speaker 1: life sentence for a murder he didn't commit. Now, this
Speaker 1: began back in nineteen ninety eight, but I want to
Speaker 1: go back even further than that. Anthony, where did you
Speaker 1: grow up and what was your childhood like? Was it
Speaker 1: a happy childhood?
Speaker 2: Yes? I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, and I
Speaker 2: grow with a mother, father and my two older brothers,
Speaker 2: and we had was a very happy, loving family. We
Speaker 2: would do a lot of fun activity together, go on vacations.
Speaker 2: I remember every Sunday with family Day. Whatever thing we
Speaker 2: needed to do we had to do together as a family.
Speaker 1: And leading up to when this awful crime occurred, you
Speaker 1: had kids a Beyonce at that time. What was life
Speaker 1: like for you?
Speaker 2: I lived with that thought was a normal life. I
Speaker 2: worked for Bell Atlantic Telephone Company, and I was a
Speaker 2: field technician. I instill a phone lines and provided doubts
Speaker 2: on the customers. I live with my fiance Keisha and
Speaker 2: my two sons at the town and we would do
Speaker 2: a lot of family things together as a told of
Speaker 2: every family oriented, so we would go out to movies, parks, breakfast,
Speaker 2: ride everything. We would just do as much as we
Speaker 2: can possibly.
Speaker 1: So this brings us to May eighteenth, nineteen eighty, when you, Anthony,
Speaker 1: witnessed a terrible crime. There was a Chinese restaurant, Mister Hings,
Speaker 1: which was down the block from where your former friend
Speaker 1: Julius Grace lived, and around ten o'clock that night, a
Speaker 1: man named Lee Runschen, who worked at Mister Hings, was
Speaker 1: shot and killed. But earlier that day, before any of
Speaker 1: that happened, you thought you were just going to swing
Speaker 1: by Graves's apartment to show him this new car you
Speaker 1: bought your fiance Keisha.
Speaker 2: So this day I decided to Baja Kong. And Julius
Speaker 2: Graves was at that time my best friend, and of
Speaker 2: course because I bought the car, was happy. I wanted
Speaker 2: to show him the car, and I bought my wife
Speaker 2: to a process. So I drove to his house at
Speaker 2: that time. So during that time, he asked me to
Speaker 2: drive him to the liquor store. I drove him to
Speaker 2: the liquor store. I went to the regular store and
Speaker 2: bought some beer. We was talking. I was letting the
Speaker 2: music play from my car radio, and then his two
Speaker 2: friends came over, his fiance's cousin Derek and then later
Speaker 2: on his friend Louis, and they was listening to music
Speaker 2: with us. And I want to say, like around ten o'clock,
Speaker 2: it was getting late. I wanted to go home show
Speaker 2: my wife the cause and I wanted to be home
Speaker 2: with my sons. So during that time, Julius asked me
Speaker 2: to drive him to the Chinese restaurant. So I thought
Speaker 2: this is a weird request because he lived down around
Speaker 2: a corner from the restaurant, and I thought he could
Speaker 2: have just walked to the restaurant. So I said, I listen,
Speaker 2: I was drinking a couple of beers. Let me go
Speaker 2: to the door to buy some breastmans, because I don't
Speaker 2: like driving around like that. I remember, right before I
Speaker 2: decided to go to the store that did the rest
Speaker 2: means whatever? I remember Julius saying, listen, and I'm going
Speaker 2: to the house. I'm going to go check with Charlie,
Speaker 2: which is his girlfriend at the time, to see if
Speaker 2: she wanted anything from the store as well. So I said,
Speaker 2: all right, so I can only assume him that's the
Speaker 2: time that he got the weapon. And when I got
Speaker 2: back to my car, Julius was sitting in my passenger
Speaker 2: seat and his two little friends were sitting in the back.
Speaker 2: They know that I didn't expect him to be in
Speaker 2: a car because they looked at me with this look like,
Speaker 2: all right, but we're just going to go to this
Speaker 2: restaurant with you. So I didn't think nothing. I very
Speaker 2: I got in the car and I drove to the
Speaker 2: Chinese restaurant. When I got out the car, I looked
Speaker 2: back and I noticed they were still sitting in the car.
Speaker 2: So I was like, all right, come on, because I'm
Speaker 2: not driving your home from here. I'm going straight home
Speaker 2: because it was getting late, so I decided to proceed
Speaker 2: to the Chinese restaurant. When I got inside of the restaurant,
Speaker 2: I started looking around for the menus and stuff to
Speaker 2: see what I was going to purchase for my wife.
Speaker 2: The next thing I know, I saw Julius come in
Speaker 2: the store. With like a weird expression on his face,
Speaker 2: and almost immediately he reached him his fans and pulled
Speaker 2: out a soda sod gun and I remember thinking, like,
Speaker 2: what the hell was going on? And where did he
Speaker 2: even get that gun from? I asked, hm, I said,
Speaker 2: what the hell are you doing? Are you crazy, Julius
Speaker 2: sex He said no, approached the counter, pointed the gun
Speaker 2: at one of the workers and pulled the trigger. And
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe it. I fell to blood rush for
Speaker 2: my body. I was like shocked, and all I remember
Speaker 2: at that time just running out the store getting in
Speaker 2: my car. Julius jumped in in too it, and I
Speaker 2: said get out. I kicked everybody. I said, everybody get
Speaker 2: out of my car. And I drove home and told
Speaker 2: Keisha I happened. That was the worst night of my life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it would be the worst night of almost anyone's
Speaker 1: life to witness something like that.
Speaker 2: That night when I when I went home, I said,
Speaker 2: I can't believe it. I mean, I got home, I
Speaker 2: got on the phone and I called them and I said,
Speaker 2: what the hell is wrong with you? Probably cursed him,
Speaker 2: I said some other things to him that Basically, I
Speaker 2: want to know why did he put me in that situation?
Speaker 2: Why did he allow me to walk into that? Why
Speaker 2: didn't he tell me what was going on? Maybe he
Speaker 2: thought I would talk him out of it. I don't know,
Speaker 2: but he just kept apologizing. And that's when he told
Speaker 2: me that you know the person that he signed out.
Speaker 2: I can't believe it. And I said, Julius, don't ever
Speaker 2: call me again. I don't want to hear from you
Speaker 2: no more. I just wanted to try to separate my cellphone.
Speaker 4: So it turns out that Julius Graves had a motive,
Speaker 4: and that is that Graves was upset that mister Chen,
Speaker 4: who worked at the Chinese restaurant, had reportedly touched the
Speaker 4: hand of Graves's fiance Sharleek earlier in the day of
Speaker 4: the murder, that he had touched her hand inappropriately. She
Speaker 4: was upset about this, she told Graves, and Graves said
Speaker 4: that he would go to the restaurant and scare the victim.
Speaker 4: We know he did a lot more than that, but
Speaker 4: that appears to have been the motive that we didn't
Speaker 4: find out until many years later. Now, what was known
Speaker 4: at the time is that after the murder, after Anthony
Speaker 4: got Graves and his two friends, Derek Dollop and Louis Cologne,
Speaker 4: to leave the car. It is undisputed that Graves took
Speaker 4: the shotgun used in the murder, went back to the
Speaker 4: apartment where he was staying, feverishly wiped off the shotgun
Speaker 4: to get his fingerprints off of it, and then gave
Speaker 4: the gun to his friend Louis Cologne to hide from police.
Speaker 4: And Louis, by the way, was only fourteen years old
Speaker 4: at the time. Graves's excuse for doing this is that
Speaker 4: he wasn't thinking. That was his only justification for the
Speaker 4: fact that he took the murder weapon, wiped it off
Speaker 4: his fingerprints, and tried to hide it from police. Now, Furthermore,
Speaker 4: this murder weapon, the sawed off shotgun, had previously been
Speaker 4: kept in a lock box in the apartment where Graves
Speaker 4: was staying, and Graves and his friend Derek Dollop, who
Speaker 4: was also his fiance's cousin, admitted even that they knew
Speaker 4: the shotgun was kept there and had seen it there before.
Speaker 4: So all the evidence suggested that the shotgun belonged to Graves,
Speaker 4: and it is undisputed he had handled it right after
Speaker 4: the murder.
Speaker 1: Occurred, right and the physical evidence was seen later proved
Speaker 1: that this sawed off shotgun from Graves' apartment was used
Speaker 1: in the murder. So this is where we start seeing
Speaker 1: a narrative being formed from the Graves camp to try
Speaker 1: to deflect responsibility for this murder away from Graves and
Speaker 1: toward Anthony. And initially it will seem like a lot
Speaker 1: of witnesses came forward to support what was really just
Speaker 1: coming straight from Graves's imagination and what later became the
Speaker 1: prosecution's narrative. But it will become clear as we move
Speaker 1: along here that none of these witnesses were to be believed.
Speaker 1: They should have been believed for two reasons. One, it's
Speaker 1: discovered later that these eyewitness accounts are initially riddled with
Speaker 1: glaring inconsistencies and contradictions that were then changed to fit
Speaker 1: a cohesive narrative in time for trial, which is just
Speaker 1: not typical what a group of people are telling the
Speaker 1: truths obviously right. And two, most of the witnesses are
Speaker 1: friends and family of Graves. There are only two witnesses,
Speaker 1: two who are not Graves's friends or family, one of
Speaker 1: whom was coerced by police into an ambiguous statement that
Speaker 1: nonetheless helped the prosecution's case at the time of trial,
Speaker 1: and the other is the only independent witness who bravely
Speaker 1: came forward to tell the truth about Graves's motive and
Speaker 1: having seen him running from the restaurant with a gun. However,
Speaker 1: none of this info about these two witnesses was known
Speaker 1: to the defensive trial, but we'll get to that later. Now,
Speaker 1: Right now, let's focus on the dubious narrative coming from
Speaker 1: the Graves camp. So, the day after the murder, Sharleek's brother,
Speaker 1: William Robertson told police a second hand story from Sharleek
Speaker 1: that Sharleek had said that Anthony had come by earlier
Speaker 1: the day of the murder and taken the shotgun out
Speaker 1: of the apartment. Then comes the narrative from Graves about
Speaker 1: the night of the murder. Okay, ready, So, according to Graves,
Speaker 1: Anthony dropped by the apartment around six pm and they
Speaker 1: had a few drinks. Anthony allegedly showed Graves a shotgun
Speaker 1: that he had in his trunk, a shotgun that Graves
Speaker 1: should have recognized as the one from his apartment, as
Speaker 1: Jonathan just said that Graves had admitted. Now, at some
Speaker 1: point Anthony and Graves are joined by Sharleek's cousin Derek
Speaker 1: Dallup and another younger friend, Luis Cologne. According to Graves,
Speaker 1: Anthony had a previous altercation with the victim, Lee run Chen,
Speaker 1: who worked at the Chinese restaurant down the block, Mister Hings.
Speaker 1: The reason behind this disagreement and the timing changed between
Speaker 1: initial interviews and trial. In this farcical version of events,
Speaker 1: Anthony allegedly had refused to pay for something at Mister
Speaker 1: Hings because it was either something he hadn't ordered, or
Speaker 1: some chicken was undercooked, or it didn't look right. You know,
Speaker 1: lying is tricky that way, right, It gets hard to
Speaker 1: keep track of your own bullshit. Anyway, At the time
Speaker 1: of this alleged problem and refusal of payment, Lee run
Speaker 1: Chen allegedly pulled a gun on Anthony, to which Anthony
Speaker 1: allegedly responded that he would get Chen for this. So
Speaker 1: this patently ridiculous and poorly written story is what established
Speaker 1: Anthony's alleged motive to murder Lee run Chen. According to Graves,
Speaker 1: that night in the lead up to the murder, Anthony
Speaker 1: brought up this two to three week old and then
Speaker 1: later four to five month old several times and was
Speaker 1: getting heated up about it before they headed to mister Hings,
Speaker 1: where Anthony was the one who allegedly shot Lee run Chen,
Speaker 1: not Graves, whose fiance had complained to him about Chen's
Speaker 1: inappropriate touching earlier that day. So this just super believable
Speaker 1: narrative is what became the prosecution's theory.
Speaker 2: I don't even know what to say at this point,
Speaker 2: but it just feels liberated to hear you retell that
Speaker 2: story because it sounded crazy to me, and from you
Speaker 2: saying how craze it sounds to you, that means a
Speaker 2: lot because I've always believed down the line that the
Speaker 2: truth was going to come out and the truth was
Speaker 2: going to set me free. I didn't know that it
Speaker 2: would be in prison twenty three years before this truth came.
Speaker 1: Out, and it's going to be out there now finally
Speaker 1: for everyone to hear, to shine a much needed light
Speaker 1: on this terrible and tragic injustice. There are a lot
Speaker 1: of good people working on your behalf right now, not
Speaker 1: least of which, of course, are your lawyers and Jonathan.
Speaker 1: There's even more than about Graves's ridiculous narrative.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the chronology of how the investigation unfolded,
Speaker 4: which Jason, you've sort of given that it was Graves
Speaker 4: trying to divert attention from himself, his friends, and his family,
Speaker 4: and that's why the murder got pinned on Anthony, because
Speaker 4: the case against Graves was so overwhelming that there had
Speaker 4: to be a scapegoat, and the story against Anthony was
Speaker 4: not only ridiculous, but as he alluded to, it was
Speaker 4: so inconsistent. Graves first actually told police Anthony and Graves's
Speaker 4: other two friends had gone to the Chinese restaurant earlier
Speaker 4: on that evening and then come back and Anthony was
Speaker 4: heated about an argument with the victim. But Graves's two
Speaker 4: friends never said they went to the Chinese restaurant. It
Speaker 4: was just made up. So Graves had to change his
Speaker 4: story and say that he had witnessed an argument between
Speaker 4: Anthony and the victim months earlier over a food order,
Speaker 4: and that Anthony was still fuming about this months later
Speaker 4: on the night of the murder. Again, Graves's friends right,
Speaker 4: who were trying to back him up. They never said
Speaker 4: that Anthony had any beef with a victim or was
Speaker 4: fuming about it in the car that evening. So the
Speaker 4: story never really made sense, But what was important to
Speaker 4: police and prosecutors, unfortunately, was clearing the case. And once
Speaker 4: they had Graves and his two friends who were willing
Speaker 4: to point the finger at Anthony as a scapegoat, the
Speaker 4: train had left the station.
Speaker 1: Okay, so they've got their site set on you, Anthony.
Speaker 1: And initially they show up at your job, but you
Speaker 1: were out that day. This tipped you off though that
Speaker 1: they were at least looking to talk to you, and
Speaker 1: eventually you went involuntarily. I mean, you were an innocent man.
Speaker 1: So did you think, well, I'll just go in there,
Speaker 1: clear this up and head on home.
Speaker 2: I did, And a big key as we left out
Speaker 2: was there was a camera inside of that restaurant, so
Speaker 2: I thought, regardless that somebody would at one point in
Speaker 2: Tom reviewed it, and then I had nothing to worry
Speaker 2: about the tape with clear everything up for me. So yes,
Speaker 2: I drove myself to the precinct. And that's why it's
Speaker 2: been ever since knocked away.
Speaker 1: You never walked out of there again, never walked out.
Speaker 1: Now what happened with the videotape from the Chinese restaurant?
Speaker 2: They said that the tape wasn't recording.
Speaker 1: Do you believe that?
Speaker 2: To be honest, I don't know what to believe anymore.
Speaker 2: I used to have a lot of faith in the
Speaker 2: condicial system, but from being a cross rated myself and
Speaker 2: listening to some of the other Harves stories from people
Speaker 2: in here with me, I don't know what to believe now.
Speaker 4: They had their man, and any other evidence that existed
Speaker 4: then were emerged later that suggested Anthony was innocent or
Speaker 4: that Graves was guilty was just an inconvenience to the
Speaker 4: prosecution's case, and so it was not disclosed to the defense.
Speaker 1: And of course listeners of this show will know that
Speaker 1: when the authorities withhold exculpatory evidence, it's called a Brady violation.
Speaker 1: Brady violations are illegal, but as our listeners also know,
Speaker 1: Brady violations rarely seemed to bring any actual ramifications for
Speaker 1: the people who commit them, so it just keeps fucking
Speaker 1: happening in case after case, And in this case, I
Speaker 1: believe the worst Brady violation, the worst one among so many,
Speaker 1: is the sole independent witness who came forward in this
Speaker 1: case that I alluded to earlier, whose statement was hidden
Speaker 1: from the defense. Will refer to her only as Rachel.
Speaker 4: So Rachel was right outside the Chinese restaurant where the
Speaker 4: murder occurred, talking on a pay phone. This was an
Speaker 4: undisputed fact, and police spoke to her, and initially she
Speaker 4: said that she had heard the shot and seen people
Speaker 4: running from the Chinese restaurant, but she didn't have her
Speaker 4: contacts in and so she couldn't identify who those people were.
Speaker 2: That was what she said.
Speaker 4: Now, this was not a neighborhood where it was easy
Speaker 4: to report to police who you had seen involved in
Speaker 4: a murder, much less if that person was your neighbor.
Speaker 4: And actually Rachel, who was seventeen at the time, she
Speaker 4: was neighbors with Julius Graves. Now, a couple of weeks
Speaker 4: went by and Rachel had kept this information to herself,
Speaker 4: but her conscience was gnawing away at her. She learned
Speaker 4: that Anthony had been wrongfully arrested for the crime, and
Speaker 4: she actually received a call from Anthony's wife at the time, Keisha,
Speaker 4: who said to Rachel, I hear you were present at
Speaker 4: the scene and that you may have seen something. Please
Speaker 4: just talk to police, tell them what you saw, whatever
Speaker 4: you saw, Please just tell them the truth. Now, at
Speaker 4: around the same time, Rachel actually had an exchange with
Speaker 4: Graves and his fiance outside of their brownstone. During that exchange,
Speaker 4: there was an argument and Rachel said, you know, I
Speaker 4: know what you did. I saw what you did, and
Speaker 4: what had she seen? In truth, she had seen Julius Graves,
Speaker 4: her neighbor, running from the Chinese restaurant with a shotgun
Speaker 4: right after the shot was fired, so she knew that
Speaker 4: he had run off with a weapon and was likely
Speaker 4: the killer. And she said, I know what you did,
Speaker 4: and you're trying to put it on somebody else. And
Speaker 4: Graves said, you talk too much, and if you keep talking,
Speaker 4: I'm going to shut you up. And Rachel was terrified,
Speaker 4: but she was also angry at what was happening and
Speaker 4: at the injustice and also at the way Graves was
Speaker 4: talking to her, and so she called police. Spoke to
Speaker 4: a detective and she said, I saw Julius Graves running
Speaker 4: from the Chinese restaurant with a big, long gun. I
Speaker 4: know it was him. He's my neighbor. And the detective said,
Speaker 4: we already have another guy. It was the taller guy.
Speaker 4: Anthony is six', Three graves is five to. Nine rachel, said,
Speaker 4: NO i, know they look completely. DIFFERENT i know that
Speaker 4: it Was graves who was running with a, shotgun and
Speaker 4: the detective basically, said, well thank you for your time
Speaker 4: and hung up the. Phone they had already Arrested anthony
Speaker 4: and decided he was the guy they were going to
Speaker 4: pin the murder.
Speaker 3: On Shaw leek had anticipated That rachel could go to the.
Speaker 3: Police so Shaw leek reports That rachel said That graves
Speaker 3: had committed the murder and she spun that as. Harassment
Speaker 3: that was a written. Report they had that. Report but
Speaker 3: IF i can complete that, incredibly even Though rachel lived
Speaker 3: next door To, charlie they did not Question rachel at
Speaker 3: all about that police. Report they didn't go up knock
Speaker 3: on the door and say is this?
Speaker 1: True have to go across the country to interview, somebody
Speaker 1: or across the, state right to go across the, street
Speaker 1: across the street somebody who actually had begged to be,
Speaker 1: interviewed right, who even though she had been threatened by
Speaker 1: a really dangerous, guy was, like, No i'm going to
Speaker 1: do the right thing as someone we could be proud,
Speaker 1: of you know that comes forward in a situation like.
Speaker 1: This but instead she just got shut down by those
Speaker 1: who are supposed to protect, us which Left graves out
Speaker 1: on the streets to potentially commit more violent, crimes While
Speaker 1: anthony was stripped of his freedom and civil. Rights so
Speaker 1: back to this. Investigation if you want to call it,
Speaker 1: that the grandmother Of graves's, children you, know Char leak's
Speaker 1: mom signs on to parrot some of the. Narrative this
Speaker 1: Is Dorothy, bolding whose story changed from her initial interview
Speaker 1: when she didn't Mention Anthony graves or even having been
Speaker 1: at Mister hings at. All this interview critical information here
Speaker 1: hidden from the, defense and by the time the grand
Speaker 1: jury and the trial roll, around she's changed her, story
Speaker 1: now claiming to be able to Implicate anthony in the.
Speaker 1: Murder but still the investigators needed to get someone outside
Speaker 1: Of graves's inner circle in order to strengthen the. Case
Speaker 1: and AS i alluded to, earlier this is the only
Speaker 1: other witness Besides rachel who was not directly related To.
Speaker 1: Graves she was a single mom who certainly appears to
Speaker 1: have been coerced into giving an ambiguous statement that helped
Speaker 1: the prosecution's case a, trial and will refer to this
Speaker 1: witness As.
Speaker 4: Shalima Now, shalima as we have since, learned she initially
Speaker 4: told police that, she when visiting her friend's apartment across
Speaker 4: the street from the, murder had heard this loud, bang
Speaker 4: had looked out the window across the street from a
Speaker 4: second floor on a dark, night and had seen a
Speaker 4: couple of men ran out of The chinese, restaurant but
Speaker 4: she couldn't describe them at. All it seemed that one
Speaker 4: of them appeared to be holding a long, gun but
Speaker 4: she couldn't make any sort of description because it was
Speaker 4: dark and it was a very fleeting. Observation and they, said,
Speaker 4: well let's take you in and see if we can
Speaker 4: refresh your. Memory they took her, in they separated her
Speaker 4: from her young, child and they interrogated her for hours
Speaker 4: and intimidated her and wouldn't tell her where her child,
Speaker 4: was which she kept, Asking and then eventually they emerged
Speaker 4: with a report saying that she identified the taller man
Speaker 4: as being the one holding the, gun which was something
Speaker 4: that was clearly fed to her because she told police
Speaker 4: that she couldn't describe the men she had, seen including
Speaker 4: the person who was running with the. Gun we first
Speaker 4: learned that in the past. Year shalima, SAID i don't
Speaker 4: know HOW i could have testified THAT i saw the
Speaker 4: taller man running with the. SHOTGUN i couldn't have made a,
Speaker 4: description and that's WHAT i told, Detectives and their response
Speaker 4: was to take me in for basically a full day of,
Speaker 4: interrogation separated from my, child until they had pressured her
Speaker 4: to give them what they. Wanted and so the prosecution
Speaker 4: really leaned on her with this made up story that
Speaker 4: they sort of force fed her because she was the
Speaker 4: only witness who wasn't totally biased in favor Of.
Speaker 1: Graves, right so now they finally had someone as shaky
Speaker 1: as this idea was to corroborate what The graves camp was.
Speaker 1: Saying So july, second nineteen ninety, eight they charged, You,
Speaker 1: anthony with two counts of murder in the second degree
Speaker 1: intentional and depraved, indifference and one count of criminal possession
Speaker 1: of a weapon in the fourth, degree a weapon that
Speaker 1: you had never even held in your, Hand and before
Speaker 1: trial even began In april nineteen ninety, Nine graves attempted to.
Speaker 4: Disappear graves didn't want to. Testify he wanted to get
Speaker 4: himself off of the, hook but even he perhaps had
Speaker 4: some pangs of conscience about falsely implicating someone who had
Speaker 4: formerly been his, friend and so he went underground before
Speaker 4: the trials, started and he was on probation at the,
Speaker 4: time actually on a weapons possession, charge and he hadn't
Speaker 4: been reporting to his probation officer for three, years and
Speaker 4: so The District attorney's office actually initiated proceedings to Revoke
Speaker 4: graves's probation so that he would be remanded to prison,
Speaker 4: Potentially and in the, Meantime graves went into hiding because
Speaker 4: he didn't want to participate in the prosecution's, case which,
Speaker 4: was as you, Said, jason a made up case that
Speaker 4: was based On graves's own.
Speaker 1: Lives this one's really. MYSTIFYING i, mean you have a
Speaker 1: guy who has a propensity to, violence who knows his
Speaker 1: way around with, weapons who was a possession of the,
Speaker 1: gun who had a previous weapons, violation and it's, like,
Speaker 1: yeah now we're just going to ignore.
Speaker 3: That julius was asked, directly have you reported to your
Speaker 3: probation officer often and? Regularly he answered yes when he
Speaker 3: hadn't reported for three, years and that why was not,
Speaker 3: Corrected and clearly the credibility Of graves was. Critical we
Speaker 3: did not know that he had not reported till last.
Speaker 1: Year So at, trial the state Presented shalima along With
Speaker 1: graves's cadre of liars Right graves, himself of, course and
Speaker 1: this fiance's Cousin Derek, dallap his Friend Louis, cologne and
Speaker 1: the grandmother Of graves's two, Children Dorothy. Bolding Now bolding's
Speaker 1: story changed. Twice in her initial, interview she didn't mention Seeing,
Speaker 1: Graves anthony or even having been At Mister, Hings and
Speaker 1: then at the grand jury she testified that while drinking
Speaker 1: outside Of Mister hings she Saw anthony enter with a
Speaker 1: long gun and heard a shot fired Before graves entered the.
Speaker 1: Restaurant then at, TRIAL i don't, know maybe she had
Speaker 1: some pangs of conscience either, way, though she testified that
Speaker 1: Shew anthony go, in followed By, graves then heard a
Speaker 1: gunshot but never saw a.
Speaker 4: Gun Miss bolding for initial report would have really discredit
Speaker 4: her as a prosecution witness was not. Disclosed also not
Speaker 4: disclosed or bias given her relation To Julius.
Speaker 1: Graves, okay so now There's. Shalima she also testified against, You.
Speaker 1: Anthony she said that on the night of the, shooting
Speaker 1: she was visiting a friend who lived on the second
Speaker 1: floor in an apartment across the street from Mister. Hings
Speaker 1: she said that she heard a gunshot and looked out
Speaker 1: the window to see two black men running from the,
Speaker 1: restaurant and that, quote the taller guy had a.
Speaker 4: Gun this was helpful for the prosecution Because anthony was
Speaker 4: taller Than. Graves, Now salima did not Identify. Anthony the
Speaker 4: prosecutor tried to get her to Identify. Anthony you, know
Speaker 4: look around the. Courtroom is the person you saw running
Speaker 4: with the gun? Here she, SAID i don't, KNOW i can't.
Speaker 4: Say and also she testified that of the two men
Speaker 4: she saw, running it was the person who was running,
Speaker 4: second who was behind who was running with the. Shotgun
Speaker 4: graves testified that he was running, second that he was Behind.
Speaker 4: Anthony so actually her testimony was very, ambiguous but it
Speaker 4: was really the only thing the prosecution had that came
Speaker 4: outside Of graves's inner. Circle and as a, result the
Speaker 4: failure to disclose What shalima had told detectives from the
Speaker 4: beginning that she couldn't describe anything was a very Damaging
Speaker 4: brady violation For anthony's.
Speaker 1: Defense was there any real defense mounted in your, Case? Anthony, On, no.
Speaker 2: We didn't even call any witnesses on, behalf although as
Speaker 2: my lawyer cannot, Testify and he, said, no what rightful
Speaker 2: person would just sit there and listen to people say
Speaker 2: certain things about him and not defend, Himself like he
Speaker 2: was really confident that there was no need for them
Speaker 2: because the case was a weak case and they eventually
Speaker 2: be able to, say you, Know julia did or, whatever
Speaker 2: and that was. That SO i didn't really have a.
Speaker 1: Defense so after hearing From graves's network of liars And
Speaker 1: shalema's ambiguous, testimony and then importantly the absence Of, rachel
Speaker 1: did you still hold out any hope at all that
Speaker 1: you'd be?
Speaker 2: VINDICATED i did only because it was a time during
Speaker 2: the deliberations or the jury came back into the court
Speaker 2: room and they passed to note the sitting with, deadline
Speaker 2: and the jet, said, well, Listen i'm going to give
Speaker 2: you a brief allent. Charge it was almost like a
Speaker 2: kangaroo court because he was basically, saying, WELL i don't
Speaker 2: know what the problem. Is it's not like he's facing
Speaker 2: the death. Money go give me a. Verdict and they
Speaker 2: needed some, rebacks some courts and, stuff AND i looked
Speaker 2: at my lawyer at that, point AND i was. MAD i, said,
Speaker 2: well maybe IF i, testified maybe it would have been,
Speaker 2: Different maybe you wouldn't be at this, point but to
Speaker 2: answer a, question AND i was still, hopeful although hope
Speaker 2: was slipping away at that.
Speaker 1: Point but they came back and found you. Guilty what
Speaker 1: was that moment was that if you can just take
Speaker 1: us inside that courtroom and inside your mind and your.
Speaker 1: Soul at that, MOMENT.
Speaker 2: I was, shocked, CONFUSED i was, hurt, devastated. NAUSEOUS i,
Speaker 2: MEAN i was. ANGRY i remember trying to stand, up
Speaker 2: BUT i didn't have any feeling in my lady because
Speaker 2: it's so. Weak, ironically what was going through my mind
Speaker 2: at that point was my son's because they were so,
Speaker 2: young and every NIGHT i would tell them crazy bedtime,
Speaker 2: stories either one THAT i read from a book OR
Speaker 2: i used to make up some. Stories and he looked
Speaker 2: forward to going to sleep just ABOUT i could come
Speaker 2: in the room and telling them. Stories AND i said to,
Speaker 2: Myself i'm not going to be able to do that
Speaker 2: for a.
Speaker 5: While as you can.
Speaker 2: Imagine for the first couple of, YEARS i was very.
Speaker 2: BETTER i WAS i was, MAD i was, angry AND
Speaker 2: i was almost like a Walking, tommie so to. SPEAK i,
Speaker 2: MEAN i was always trying to do programs and stuff
Speaker 2: and trying to help myself and help other people as,
Speaker 2: well but INSIDE i was really messed. Up AND i
Speaker 2: remember going on the visit one day and my, son
Speaker 2: Little Anthony, junior WHICH i loved to die of both my,
Speaker 2: sons he was. Crying he just broke out one day
Speaker 2: crying on a visit and he, Said, daddy don't, Worry
Speaker 2: i'm Gonna i'm gonna Get julius to doing this to,
Speaker 2: you because he had known at that Point julias as
Speaker 2: his uncle because we were so. Close AND i looked
Speaker 2: at him AND i, said, No, anthony don't don't ever
Speaker 2: say that. AGAIN i, SAID i don't ever say. That,
Speaker 2: No AND i was basically letting them know that the
Speaker 2: law will mentally prevail and there to work it self.
Speaker 2: Out and in the same tids he looked at me
Speaker 2: and he, says, well And, dad and you got to
Speaker 2: promise me that you would never do anything to him
Speaker 2: Linger AND i, SAID i. WON'T i promise you. That
Speaker 2: and it was that point THAT i forgave you is
Speaker 2: AND i continue to live my life as a life
Speaker 2: giver for, them but also trying to help any and
Speaker 2: everybody out because in a sense helping me as. Well
Speaker 2: but that was my turning. Point that's WHEN i forgave
Speaker 2: him for doing what he.
Speaker 1: Did, wow sounds like you did a hell of a,
Speaker 1: job even in the brief time you have with your,
Speaker 1: sons raising them and teaching them.
Speaker 2: Right, unfortunately prison has a way to divis, families as
Speaker 2: you can only. Imagine so my son's, mother which is
Speaker 2: my wife at the, town her name is Also, keisher
Speaker 2: this PRISON vi became too much for her for, us
Speaker 2: and it felt LIKE i was holding her back from
Speaker 2: living her. Life so we both came to the agreement
Speaker 2: that we should just divorce and sipara so that she
Speaker 2: can live the life of the speak And god always
Speaker 2: has a way of making things. Happen but my wife,
Speaker 2: today which is also Named, keisha it is my junior
Speaker 2: high school. Girlfriend she was my cheerleader WHEN i was
Speaker 2: the captain of the basketball. Team So jesus started to
Speaker 2: write me and one thing turned into. Another all of
Speaker 2: the old films came back and we decided to try
Speaker 2: one more time and get. Married and that was probably
Speaker 2: the best decision of my.
Speaker 6: Life my name Is Keisha, simms AND i Am Anthony simms's,
Speaker 6: wife and it is it's the best decision that we've
Speaker 6: ever made That i've ever. Made anthony AND i, were you,
Speaker 6: know junior high school. Sweethearts you, know people in the
Speaker 6: situation always think that the people in, prison you, know
Speaker 6: they should be grateful that someone they's just type to
Speaker 6: commitment to them under these. Circumstances but for, Me anthony
Speaker 6: has brought just so much to my. Life he hasn't
Speaker 6: riched my life so. Much i've grown so much as
Speaker 6: a person because of. Him this situation in particular has
Speaker 6: made me, stronger and So i'm just grateful that he
Speaker 6: chose me to go on this journey with him and
Speaker 6: to fight for his.
Speaker 2: Innocence one, DAY i was reading the newspaper from a
Speaker 2: friend of mine Named Kevin. Jenkins he asked me to
Speaker 2: read this article because the articles involved the person that
Speaker 2: we both knew From greenhaviors AND Vnue. Cooper kevin suggested
Speaker 2: THAT i try to get in touch With Tom, hoffman
Speaker 2: the lawyer got this guy. Out SO i talked to
Speaker 2: my wife and she said that night it was all
Speaker 2: for her to sleep because she worked around a lot of.
Speaker 2: Lawyers she knew that she only had one shot at
Speaker 2: this and she was making a little bullet. Points she
Speaker 2: was rehearsing what she would saying because she knew that
Speaker 2: it was really important to Obtain Thomas. Houseman she. Said
Speaker 2: the first Thing tom wanted to know was was he,
Speaker 2: anything because he would not represent anybody who was not.
Speaker 2: Innocent and, keithas, oh yes he, is But i'm going
Speaker 2: to change some information so that you can see it for.
Speaker 6: Yourself at that, POINT i had all Of anthony's legal
Speaker 6: work because his son had kept all of his, documentation
Speaker 6: and he, said, well send me everything that you. Have
Speaker 6: So i'm working from. Home ALL i have is An
Speaker 6: adobe scanned app on my phone which can only scan
Speaker 6: one page at a. Time one Of anthony's transcripts is
Speaker 6: four hundred and some are. Pages that's just only one.
Speaker 6: Transcript AND i did that for, days you, know trying
Speaker 6: to get all the information to. Him and he saw
Speaker 6: all of the, discrepancies you, know and all the violations
Speaker 6: and things that we had always. Seen tom knew That
Speaker 6: anthony was, innocent and it was just astounding evidence.
Speaker 5: To support that in the rest of.
Speaker 2: HISTORY i Got Tom hofford and hand can have doing
Speaker 2: my case For, bono And i've never had lawyer's work
Speaker 2: as hard as they.
Speaker 1: Were it's an amazing, STORY i, mean a tale Of
Speaker 1: tukeisha's which eventually resulted in these two, attorneys which of
Speaker 1: course brings us to the post conviction. Litigation and it
Speaker 1: looks like before you both got, involved there were some
Speaker 1: filing surrounding an inappropriate remark by the, prosecutor ineffective assistant,
Speaker 1: claims trial court, errors discriminatory jury, challenges all of which
Speaker 1: were serious points but ultimately. Failed there was some new,
Speaker 1: evidence a recantation of trial testimony From. Graves we know
Speaker 1: he was feeling remorseful for Throwing anthony under the, bus
Speaker 1: but he didn't want to come. Clean so THIS Affi
Speaker 1: david really is reflective of, that meaning he doesn't tell
Speaker 1: the whole. Truths he basically says That anthony went inside
Speaker 1: Mister hings and, He Julius, graves did. Not he continued
Speaker 1: that he didn't see who Shot chen and was coerced
Speaker 1: to testify that he had Seen anthony do. It so
Speaker 1: it takes the onus off Of, anthony but it's definitely
Speaker 1: not the exonerating evidence that one would hope for as
Speaker 1: or the other filings in.
Speaker 4: This, case everything that sort of happened in those initial
Speaker 4: post trial proceedings was sort of skirmishes around secondary, issues
Speaker 4: which unfortunately is often the best you can do for
Speaker 4: a convicted person until you get A Tom hoffman to
Speaker 4: fully reinvestigate the case like a.
Speaker 1: Detective right Without, tom we wouldn't know the context Around shalima's,
Speaker 1: testimony which is what passed for a corroborating witness For
Speaker 1: graves and his whole network of. LIARS i, mean it
Speaker 1: wasn't corroborating testimony at, all but misleading or even pointing
Speaker 1: To graves's. Guilt and then the Major brady violation in
Speaker 1: Hiding rachel for all of these. Years remember she Witnessed
Speaker 1: charlick And graves talking about the inappropriate touching which established
Speaker 1: the motive she Saw graves running from Mister hinges with the.
Speaker 1: Gun then when she Confronted charleick And, graves she was,
Speaker 1: threatened you talk too, much you Keep i'm gonna shut you,
Speaker 1: up was the, quote not to even mention of the
Speaker 1: previously unknown or ignored holes and shifts And graves's. Narrative and,
Speaker 1: finally we haven't even talked about this, yet but there
Speaker 1: was a cook at Mister hings who had a view
Speaker 1: of the shooter and described his complexion as quote not.
Speaker 1: Black this is consistent With graves's light brown, skin While
Speaker 1: anthony importantly has a dark. Complexion, So, tom what is
Speaker 1: being done with all of the e sculpatory evidence that you've.
Speaker 3: Compiled the four point forty was initially filed In, december
Speaker 3: and we Attached rachel's AffA David shalima's. Statement both of
Speaker 3: those statements were recorded from beginning to, end all all to.
Speaker 3: Goodbye we also found this documentation That graves had lied
Speaker 3: about reporting to his probation officer often and. Regularly we
Speaker 3: also found Additional brady, violations and as the case was,
Speaker 3: proceeding we then get even more documents From, foil including
Speaker 3: That graves on the day of his, testimony received, money
Speaker 3: received housing together with his, girlfriend his girlfriend's, brother and
Speaker 3: the brother's, girlfriend and then he eventually gets twenty five
Speaker 3: thousand dollars in. Benefits all this comes, out so we
Speaker 3: then amend our. Petition we also found out That cologne
Speaker 3: had told one of his friends that it was his
Speaker 3: friend who committed the. Shooting, well his friend Was Julius
Speaker 3: graves that was only recently, ascertained as with, others AND
Speaker 3: i should say look the current four forty eighty as
Speaker 3: in their, response they did not address any of our.
Speaker 3: Allegations Did Julius graves lie or did he not?
Speaker 5: Lie not?
Speaker 3: Addressed they said you could have a. Hearing, well the
Speaker 3: hearing's gonna take quite a, while And anthony should be home.
Speaker 3: Now his children are now twenty seven and twenty, eight
Speaker 3: his father recently suffered a. Stroke his eighty eight year
Speaker 3: old grandmother wants to see her grandson before she. Dies
Speaker 3: the evidence is. Overwhelming anthony should not have to wait any.
Speaker 3: Longer the resistance on undoing a wrongful conviction is.
Speaker 1: Youth, yeah, absolutely it is even under normal. Circumstances but
Speaker 1: here In brooklyn there's been an even more obstinate than
Speaker 1: usual obstacle in this. Case anthony brought his case to
Speaker 1: The Brooklyn Conviction Review unit in twenty, seventeen and one
Speaker 1: would think that the good folks there would take one
Speaker 1: look At graves's bullshit and do something about. It but
Speaker 1: the man tasked with running THE CiU In brooklyn since
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen Was Mark, hale who just so happens to
Speaker 1: be the man who Prosecuted anthony's. Case Hum but and
Speaker 1: this is a big, Butt Mark hale just retired at
Speaker 1: the beginning Of july twenty twenty. One so while this
Speaker 1: is good news For, anthony there's still plenty of ways
Speaker 1: that this might not work.
Speaker 3: Out so while we know that our case is, overwhelming
Speaker 3: there is no assurance that we're going to, prevail and
Speaker 3: that's why we need all of the help that we.
Speaker 4: Can we appreciate all of the listeners to the, podcasts
Speaker 4: and of Course, jason all of your, advocacy what you're
Speaker 4: doing and just giving us a. Platform we have a
Speaker 4: Website Free Anthony sims dot com and you can sign
Speaker 4: your name to the petition which calls On Brooklyn District
Speaker 4: Attorney Eric gonzalez to join our motion to Vacate anthony's
Speaker 4: wrongful conviction and to let him go home to his
Speaker 4: family where he. Belongs there's also a link where you
Speaker 4: can email The District attorney's, Office so please Visit Free
Speaker 4: Anthony sims dot com and we greatly appreciate all of your, help.
Speaker 1: And i'm going to be signing and joining and you,
Speaker 1: KNOW i do believe In Eric. Gonzalez, eric if you're
Speaker 1: listening right, now we're counting on. You that's ALL i can.
Speaker 3: Say we believe That Da, gonzales once he understands this,
Speaker 3: case he's going to do the right.
Speaker 1: There amen to, that And i'll have the website linked
Speaker 1: in our episode. Bio, okay so now we come to
Speaker 1: the part of the show called closing, arguments WHERE i
Speaker 1: offer my sincere thanks to you, Guys Jonathan holes And
Speaker 1: Thomas hoffman for your passionate devotion to this case and
Speaker 1: just for being good. Humans and of course you, Know,
Speaker 1: anthony you're a hero to me and so many other,
Speaker 1: people just for your, spirit courage and your. Grace you,
Speaker 1: know it's really an honor to have you here. Today
Speaker 1: and so here's how this. Works i'm going to turn
Speaker 1: my microphone, off kick back in my, chair close my,
Speaker 1: eyes and each of you guys get the opportunity to
Speaker 1: share any final parting thoughts you. Have we call it closing.
Speaker 1: Arguments we'll start With Jonathan hiles that you could pass
Speaker 1: the mic To Thomas, hoffman and then we'll save the
Speaker 1: best for, last And, anthony you'll be with all due
Speaker 1: respect to, you, Guys, anthony he's going to be bad
Speaker 1: and clean, up so to. Speak, so without further Ado
Speaker 1: Jonathan hile's closing, Arguments.
Speaker 2: Thank, You.
Speaker 4: JASON i think it's important to look at the broader
Speaker 4: picture and how this injustice. Occurred and it's because the
Speaker 4: system did not value the life Of Anthony, simms and
Speaker 4: it also did not value the life Of lee Run.
Speaker 4: Chun and what we're fighting to do is to make
Speaker 4: sure that justice is served For anthony and also for the,
Speaker 4: victim for the truth to, emerge and every ounce of
Speaker 4: help we can get to ensure that happens is deeply
Speaker 4: appreciated because the truth has been clear from the, start
Speaker 4: and that truth is That Julius graves was the perpetrator
Speaker 4: of this awful, crime Not Anthony. Simms and it's time
Speaker 4: For anthony to go home and to be reunited with
Speaker 4: his family so that he can be with them and
Speaker 4: serve the community to which he has so much to.
Speaker 4: Contribute so thank you, Again, Jason.
Speaker 3: Thank you again for doing. THIS i believe you have
Speaker 3: had one hundred and forty five podcasts of people who
Speaker 3: were wontfully. CONVICTED i have listened to. Many while the facts,
Speaker 3: vary the stories are all the. SAME a horrific crime is,
Speaker 3: committed drawing wide media and public. Attention perpetrators need to
Speaker 3: be taken off the street and held to. Account, however
Speaker 3: the concern of the police and the prosecutors is not
Speaker 3: to find the actual, perpetrator but to give the public
Speaker 3: the perception that the case was. Solved it did not
Speaker 3: matter whether the right person was brought to justice as
Speaker 3: long as the conviction was secured and the public fear.
Speaker 3: Allayed As jonathan, said neither the victim nor the defendant's
Speaker 3: life is valued as long as the cases were so
Speaker 3: to the public is not, valued as the police did
Speaker 3: not care whether the actual perpetrator remained loose and posed
Speaker 3: the danger to the. Public also, common in order to
Speaker 3: win these, cases evidence pointing away from the defendant's culpability
Speaker 3: is ignored and not, investigated as such investigation could potentially
Speaker 3: exculpate the, accused and of Course rachel is an example of.
Speaker 3: That in this, case favorable evidence pointing away from defendant's
Speaker 3: guilt is disregarded, and in contravention of the prosecutor's constitutional,
Speaker 3: duty is hidden from the. Defender, meanwhile husband's, wives, mothers, fathers,
Speaker 3: sisters brothers and, sons and daughters are, destroyed all in
Speaker 3: the interest of winning at all. Courts people ask me
Speaker 3: why DO i do. THIS i Now i'm giving it.
Speaker 3: Away am A holocaust. SURVIVOR i was born in nineteen forty.
Speaker 3: Four basically my, family extensive family was wiped, out and
Speaker 3: That holocaust was caused by people remaining. Silent and that
Speaker 3: is WHY i call on our audience not to be.
Speaker 3: Silent go to that website to undo this horrific.
Speaker 5: Injustice, ANTHONY i want to say thank, You, Tom, Jonathan
Speaker 5: jason And, connor AND i really thank you for.
Speaker 2: This this has probably been one of the highlights of many.
Speaker 2: Years and now THAT i know That gonzalez is going
Speaker 2: to be looking at, THIS i want to talk directly to,
Speaker 2: you Mister, gonzales AND i want to ask that you
Speaker 2: please review this. Evidence if don't just discard my case
Speaker 2: like the rest of, them view it with an open,
Speaker 2: mind understand what's would. Happened and Although i'll never be
Speaker 2: able to get back over the year That i've been
Speaker 2: in here, unjust you can make this right by doing
Speaker 2: the right. Thing allow me to be the father and
Speaker 2: out there society THAT i KNOW i need to be
Speaker 2: with my sons and let me dismiss some time with
Speaker 2: my mother and father who got. Old you, know my
Speaker 2: father had a. Show my mother's walking around with kine
Speaker 2: as an about eleventh, Victim my grandmother who's eighty six years,
Speaker 2: old who lives for, me my, wife, family my family
Speaker 2: just in, general allow me to get some of my life, back.
Speaker 1: Do the right. Thing thank you for listening To Wrongful
Speaker 1: conviction With jason Flamm please support your local innocence projects
Speaker 1: and go to the link in our bio to see
Speaker 1: how you can. Help i'd like to thank our production
Speaker 1: Team Connor, Hall Jeff clyburn And Kevin. Warnis the music
Speaker 1: on the, show as, always is by three TIME oscar
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