WEBVTT - #221 Jason Flom with Anthony Sims 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:06.560 On eighteenth, nineteen ninety eight, a woman named Rachel claims 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:10.119 to have seen her neighbors Julius Graves and Charlie Winbush talking. 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:13.720 Charleik was telling her fiance Graves about how a man 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:16.840 named Lee run Chen, who worked at the Chinese restaurant 0:00:16.880 --> 0:00:20.880 up the block Mister Hinks, had touched her inappropriately. Graves 0:00:20.920 --> 0:00:25.560 replied that he would scare him. Later that day, Julius Graves, 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:28.440 his fiance's cousin, and another younger friend had a few 0:00:28.520 --> 0:00:31.520 drinks with Graves's friend, Anthony Simms as they listened to 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:35.639 music by Anthony's car. As the evening wrapped up, Graves 0:00:35.680 --> 0:00:38.479 asked Anthony to drive him down the block to mister Hinks. 0:00:39.000 --> 0:00:42.639 Oblivious to any issue with Chen, Anthony agreed. They went 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:45.720 into the restaurant, when it is believed that Graves shot 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:50.159 and killed Lee run Chen. In shock, Anthony fled alone 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:53.640 while Graves and the two younger guys returned to Graves's apartment, 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:56.000 wiped the gun clean, figured out where to stash it, 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:58.720 and began to conjure up a story to deflect blame 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:02.600 from Graves and on Anthony Simms. With Graves at a 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:05.759 number of his friends and family supporting this phony narrative, 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:10.480 investigators set their sights on Anthony. Only one witness came 0:01:10.560 --> 0:01:14.800 forward independently who was neither coerced nor friends and family 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.200 of Julius Graves, Graves's neighbor Rachel, who was on the 0:01:18.280 --> 0:01:21.880 phone outside of mister Hins during the shooting and saw 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:24.760 Graves running from the restaurant with a soft off shotgun 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:28.800 in his hand. Yet her statement was ignored by investigators 0:01:28.800 --> 0:01:32.720 and hidden from the defense, and as a result, Anthony 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:37.240 Simms continues to serve twenty five years to life. This 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:54.320 is wrongful conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to wrongful 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:57.240 conviction with Jason Flamm. That's me and today if you 0:01:57.280 --> 0:01:59.680 hear my voice, sounds sort of down. I mean, this 0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:03.760 is one of the most troubling wrongful conviction cases that 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:07.320 I've ever seen in twenty eight years of doing this work, 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:10.240 which is almost as long as Anthony Simms has been 0:02:10.320 --> 0:02:15.400 locked up for a crime he obviously didn't commit. First 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.399 of all, I want to introduce the two attorneys who 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:21.200 are so devoted to this case and to this man, 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:24.880 Jonathan Hiles and Thomas Hoffman. Thank you both for being here. 0:02:25.040 --> 0:02:25.400 Thank you. 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:26.960 Thank you for doing. 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:30.079 This Jason, and now of course saving the best for last. 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:34.200 And I'm just so sorry that you're here under these circumstances. 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:37.280 But I'm honestly honored that you're here with us today 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:41.200 on the podcast. So Anthony Simms, welcome to Rawful Conviction. 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:46.320 And Anthony, of course, is now a forty five year 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:48.880 old man, twenty four years into a twenty five to 0:02:48.919 --> 0:02:52.720 life sentence for a murder he didn't commit. Now, this 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:55.959 began back in nineteen ninety eight, but I want to 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:59.600 go back even further than that. Anthony, where did you 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:02.280 grow up and what was your childhood like? Was it 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:03.440 a happy childhood? 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:07.640 Yes? I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, and I 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:10.200 grow with a mother, father and my two older brothers, 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:13.000 and we had was a very happy, loving family. We 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:16.560 would do a lot of fun activity together, go on vacations. 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:19.800 I remember every Sunday with family Day. Whatever thing we 0:03:19.840 --> 0:03:21.960 needed to do we had to do together as a family. 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:25.440 And leading up to when this awful crime occurred, you 0:03:25.560 --> 0:03:29.280 had kids a Beyonce at that time. What was life 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:29.760 like for you? 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:32.480 I lived with that thought was a normal life. I 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.920 worked for Bell Atlantic Telephone Company, and I was a 0:03:35.920 --> 0:03:39.120 field technician. I instill a phone lines and provided doubts 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:41.720 on the customers. I live with my fiance Keisha and 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:45.640 my two sons at the town and we would do 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:47.600 a lot of family things together as a told of 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:53.920 every family oriented, so we would go out to movies, parks, breakfast, 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:56.160 ride everything. We would just do as much as we 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:57.000 can possibly. 0:03:57.280 --> 0:04:01.600 So this brings us to May eighteenth, nineteen eighty, when you, Anthony, 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:05.760 witnessed a terrible crime. There was a Chinese restaurant, Mister Hings, 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:08.119 which was down the block from where your former friend 0:04:08.200 --> 0:04:12.040 Julius Grace lived, and around ten o'clock that night, a 0:04:12.080 --> 0:04:15.320 man named Lee Runschen, who worked at Mister Hings, was 0:04:15.360 --> 0:04:18.200 shot and killed. But earlier that day, before any of 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:21.160 that happened, you thought you were just going to swing 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:24.000 by Graves's apartment to show him this new car you 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:25.560 bought your fiance Keisha. 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:29.360 So this day I decided to Baja Kong. And Julius 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:32.480 Graves was at that time my best friend, and of 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:36.000 course because I bought the car, was happy. I wanted 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:37.479 to show him the car, and I bought my wife 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:40.280 to a process. So I drove to his house at 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.440 that time. So during that time, he asked me to 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:45.640 drive him to the liquor store. I drove him to 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:47.600 the liquor store. I went to the regular store and 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:49.920 bought some beer. We was talking. I was letting the 0:04:49.960 --> 0:04:53.279 music play from my car radio, and then his two 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:58.440 friends came over, his fiance's cousin Derek and then later 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:01.679 on his friend Louis, and they was listening to music 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:05.520 with us. And I want to say, like around ten o'clock, 0:05:05.720 --> 0:05:07.920 it was getting late. I wanted to go home show 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:10.280 my wife the cause and I wanted to be home 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:13.960 with my sons. So during that time, Julius asked me 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:16.760 to drive him to the Chinese restaurant. So I thought 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:20.440 this is a weird request because he lived down around 0:05:20.440 --> 0:05:22.200 a corner from the restaurant, and I thought he could 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:25.600 have just walked to the restaurant. So I said, I listen, 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:27.320 I was drinking a couple of beers. Let me go 0:05:27.360 --> 0:05:29.159 to the door to buy some breastmans, because I don't 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:32.200 like driving around like that. I remember, right before I 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:34.039 decided to go to the store that did the rest 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:36.680 means whatever? I remember Julius saying, listen, and I'm going 0:05:36.680 --> 0:05:38.400 to the house. I'm going to go check with Charlie, 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:41.000 which is his girlfriend at the time, to see if 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:43.120 she wanted anything from the store as well. So I said, 0:05:43.120 --> 0:05:45.719 all right, so I can only assume him that's the 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.200 time that he got the weapon. And when I got 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:50.880 back to my car, Julius was sitting in my passenger 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:54.480 seat and his two little friends were sitting in the back. 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:56.480 They know that I didn't expect him to be in 0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:58.520 a car because they looked at me with this look like, 0:05:59.480 --> 0:06:00.919 all right, but we're just going to go to this 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:03.280 restaurant with you. So I didn't think nothing. I very 0:06:03.360 --> 0:06:04.640 I got in the car and I drove to the 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:08.919 Chinese restaurant. When I got out the car, I looked 0:06:08.920 --> 0:06:10.600 back and I noticed they were still sitting in the car. 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:12.000 So I was like, all right, come on, because I'm 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:13.920 not driving your home from here. I'm going straight home 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:16.080 because it was getting late, so I decided to proceed 0:06:16.160 --> 0:06:19.440 to the Chinese restaurant. When I got inside of the restaurant, 0:06:19.839 --> 0:06:22.839 I started looking around for the menus and stuff to 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:24.839 see what I was going to purchase for my wife. 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:26.800 The next thing I know, I saw Julius come in 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:29.159 the store. With like a weird expression on his face, 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:32.760 and almost immediately he reached him his fans and pulled 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:36.640 out a soda sod gun and I remember thinking, like, 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:38.120 what the hell was going on? And where did he 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:40.080 even get that gun from? I asked, hm, I said, 0:06:40.120 --> 0:06:43.039 what the hell are you doing? Are you crazy, Julius 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:46.880 sex He said no, approached the counter, pointed the gun 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:49.800 at one of the workers and pulled the trigger. And 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:52.320 I couldn't believe it. I fell to blood rush for 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:57.080 my body. I was like shocked, and all I remember 0:06:57.080 --> 0:06:59.560 at that time just running out the store getting in 0:06:59.600 --> 0:07:02.680 my car. Julius jumped in in too it, and I 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:05.120 said get out. I kicked everybody. I said, everybody get 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:08.239 out of my car. And I drove home and told 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:12.040 Keisha I happened. That was the worst night of my life. 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:16.040 Yeah, it would be the worst night of almost anyone's 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:17.600 life to witness something like that. 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:20.160 That night when I when I went home, I said, 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:23.440 I can't believe it. I mean, I got home, I 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:25.680 got on the phone and I called them and I said, 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:28.320 what the hell is wrong with you? Probably cursed him, 0:07:28.360 --> 0:07:30.720 I said some other things to him that Basically, I 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:32.320 want to know why did he put me in that situation? 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.640 Why did he allow me to walk into that? Why 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:37.200 didn't he tell me what was going on? Maybe he 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:38.760 thought I would talk him out of it. I don't know, 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:43.360 but he just kept apologizing. And that's when he told 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:45.440 me that you know the person that he signed out. 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:47.920 I can't believe it. And I said, Julius, don't ever 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:49.760 call me again. I don't want to hear from you 0:07:49.800 --> 0:07:52.920 no more. I just wanted to try to separate my cellphone. 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:57.920 So it turns out that Julius Graves had a motive, 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:02.440 and that is that Graves was upset that mister Chen, 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:06.360 who worked at the Chinese restaurant, had reportedly touched the 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:11.280 hand of Graves's fiance Sharleek earlier in the day of 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:15.200 the murder, that he had touched her hand inappropriately. She 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:19.360 was upset about this, she told Graves, and Graves said 0:08:19.400 --> 0:08:23.520 that he would go to the restaurant and scare the victim. 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:25.680 We know he did a lot more than that, but 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:28.200 that appears to have been the motive that we didn't 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:31.240 find out until many years later. Now, what was known 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:34.760 at the time is that after the murder, after Anthony 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:38.920 got Graves and his two friends, Derek Dollop and Louis Cologne, 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:42.280 to leave the car. It is undisputed that Graves took 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:45.080 the shotgun used in the murder, went back to the 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:49.239 apartment where he was staying, feverishly wiped off the shotgun 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:52.360 to get his fingerprints off of it, and then gave 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:56.200 the gun to his friend Louis Cologne to hide from police. 0:08:56.520 --> 0:08:59.000 And Louis, by the way, was only fourteen years old 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:03.200 at the time. Graves's excuse for doing this is that 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:08.200 he wasn't thinking. That was his only justification for the 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:10.880 fact that he took the murder weapon, wiped it off 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:14.800 his fingerprints, and tried to hide it from police. Now, Furthermore, 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:17.960 this murder weapon, the sawed off shotgun, had previously been 0:09:18.040 --> 0:09:21.760 kept in a lock box in the apartment where Graves 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:26.360 was staying, and Graves and his friend Derek Dollop, who 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:30.600 was also his fiance's cousin, admitted even that they knew 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:33.440 the shotgun was kept there and had seen it there before. 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:38.200 So all the evidence suggested that the shotgun belonged to Graves, 0:09:38.400 --> 0:09:41.360 and it is undisputed he had handled it right after 0:09:41.720 --> 0:09:42.600 the murder. 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:46.760 Occurred, right and the physical evidence was seen later proved 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.880 that this sawed off shotgun from Graves' apartment was used 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:52.680 in the murder. So this is where we start seeing 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:56.000 a narrative being formed from the Graves camp to try 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:59.560 to deflect responsibility for this murder away from Graves and 0:09:59.720 --> 0:10:03.800 toward Anthony. And initially it will seem like a lot 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:07.000 of witnesses came forward to support what was really just 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:10.679 coming straight from Graves's imagination and what later became the 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:13.800 prosecution's narrative. But it will become clear as we move 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:16.800 along here that none of these witnesses were to be believed. 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:19.480 They should have been believed for two reasons. One, it's 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:24.200 discovered later that these eyewitness accounts are initially riddled with 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:28.480 glaring inconsistencies and contradictions that were then changed to fit 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:31.840 a cohesive narrative in time for trial, which is just 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:34.600 not typical what a group of people are telling the 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:38.040 truths obviously right. And two, most of the witnesses are 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:41.600 friends and family of Graves. There are only two witnesses, 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:44.840 two who are not Graves's friends or family, one of 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:48.240 whom was coerced by police into an ambiguous statement that 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:51.440 nonetheless helped the prosecution's case at the time of trial, 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.600 and the other is the only independent witness who bravely 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:57.520 came forward to tell the truth about Graves's motive and 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:01.240 having seen him running from the restaurant with a gun. However, 0:11:01.600 --> 0:11:04.240 none of this info about these two witnesses was known 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.200 to the defensive trial, but we'll get to that later. Now, 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:11.000 Right now, let's focus on the dubious narrative coming from 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:15.360 the Graves camp. So, the day after the murder, Sharleek's brother, 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:19.679 William Robertson told police a second hand story from Sharleek 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:23.360 that Sharleek had said that Anthony had come by earlier 0:11:23.640 --> 0:11:25.800 the day of the murder and taken the shotgun out 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:28.679 of the apartment. Then comes the narrative from Graves about 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:32.120 the night of the murder. Okay, ready, So, according to Graves, 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:35.720 Anthony dropped by the apartment around six pm and they 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:39.240 had a few drinks. Anthony allegedly showed Graves a shotgun 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:41.640 that he had in his trunk, a shotgun that Graves 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:44.600 should have recognized as the one from his apartment, as 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:48.720 Jonathan just said that Graves had admitted. Now, at some 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:52.439 point Anthony and Graves are joined by Sharleek's cousin Derek 0:11:52.559 --> 0:11:57.560 Dallup and another younger friend, Luis Cologne. According to Graves, 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:01.320 Anthony had a previous altercation with the victim, Lee run Chen, 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:04.720 who worked at the Chinese restaurant down the block, Mister Hings. 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:09.080 The reason behind this disagreement and the timing changed between 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:13.760 initial interviews and trial. In this farcical version of events, 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.320 Anthony allegedly had refused to pay for something at Mister 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.360 Hings because it was either something he hadn't ordered, or 0:12:20.400 --> 0:12:23.960 some chicken was undercooked, or it didn't look right. You know, 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:27.120 lying is tricky that way, right, It gets hard to 0:12:27.240 --> 0:12:30.920 keep track of your own bullshit. Anyway, At the time 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:34.840 of this alleged problem and refusal of payment, Lee run 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:38.600 Chen allegedly pulled a gun on Anthony, to which Anthony 0:12:38.679 --> 0:12:42.480 allegedly responded that he would get Chen for this. So 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:47.960 this patently ridiculous and poorly written story is what established 0:12:47.960 --> 0:12:52.800 Anthony's alleged motive to murder Lee run Chen. According to Graves, 0:12:52.920 --> 0:12:55.640 that night in the lead up to the murder, Anthony 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:57.800 brought up this two to three week old and then 0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:02.240 later four to five month old several times and was 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:05.440 getting heated up about it before they headed to mister Hings, 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:09.560 where Anthony was the one who allegedly shot Lee run Chen, 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:13.480 not Graves, whose fiance had complained to him about Chen's 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:17.880 inappropriate touching earlier that day. So this just super believable 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:21.440 narrative is what became the prosecution's theory. 0:13:21.920 --> 0:13:23.440 I don't even know what to say at this point, 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:27.400 but it just feels liberated to hear you retell that 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:30.680 story because it sounded crazy to me, and from you 0:13:30.800 --> 0:13:32.920 saying how craze it sounds to you, that means a 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:35.520 lot because I've always believed down the line that the 0:13:35.559 --> 0:13:37.719 truth was going to come out and the truth was 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:39.360 going to set me free. I didn't know that it 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:42.760 would be in prison twenty three years before this truth came. 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:45.160 Out, and it's going to be out there now finally 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:47.920 for everyone to hear, to shine a much needed light 0:13:48.000 --> 0:13:52.000 on this terrible and tragic injustice. There are a lot 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:54.520 of good people working on your behalf right now, not 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.160 least of which, of course, are your lawyers and Jonathan. 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:02.400 There's even more than about Graves's ridiculous narrative. 0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:07.479 Yeah, I think the chronology of how the investigation unfolded, 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:11.000 which Jason, you've sort of given that it was Graves 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:15.440 trying to divert attention from himself, his friends, and his family, 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:18.800 and that's why the murder got pinned on Anthony, because 0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:22.560 the case against Graves was so overwhelming that there had 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:26.840 to be a scapegoat, and the story against Anthony was 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:30.160 not only ridiculous, but as he alluded to, it was 0:14:30.200 --> 0:14:36.120 so inconsistent. Graves first actually told police Anthony and Graves's 0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:39.280 other two friends had gone to the Chinese restaurant earlier 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.640 on that evening and then come back and Anthony was 0:14:42.680 --> 0:14:46.000 heated about an argument with the victim. But Graves's two 0:14:46.080 --> 0:14:49.040 friends never said they went to the Chinese restaurant. It 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:51.280 was just made up. So Graves had to change his 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:54.600 story and say that he had witnessed an argument between 0:14:54.640 --> 0:14:58.240 Anthony and the victim months earlier over a food order, 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:01.960 and that Anthony was still fuming about this months later 0:15:02.320 --> 0:15:05.920 on the night of the murder. Again, Graves's friends right, 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.280 who were trying to back him up. They never said 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:10.840 that Anthony had any beef with a victim or was 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:13.680 fuming about it in the car that evening. So the 0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:17.280 story never really made sense, But what was important to 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:22.680 police and prosecutors, unfortunately, was clearing the case. And once 0:15:22.920 --> 0:15:26.000 they had Graves and his two friends who were willing 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:29.960 to point the finger at Anthony as a scapegoat, the 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:31.280 train had left the station. 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:34.600 Okay, so they've got their site set on you, Anthony. 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:37.040 And initially they show up at your job, but you 0:15:37.080 --> 0:15:39.520 were out that day. This tipped you off though that 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:41.480 they were at least looking to talk to you, and 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:45.120 eventually you went involuntarily. I mean, you were an innocent man. 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:47.960 So did you think, well, I'll just go in there, 0:15:48.200 --> 0:15:49.840 clear this up and head on home. 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:52.880 I did, And a big key as we left out 0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:55.880 was there was a camera inside of that restaurant, so 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:59.160 I thought, regardless that somebody would at one point in 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:02.000 Tom reviewed it, and then I had nothing to worry 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:04.840 about the tape with clear everything up for me. So yes, 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:08.320 I drove myself to the precinct. And that's why it's 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:09.800 been ever since knocked away. 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:13.600 You never walked out of there again, never walked out. 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:18.200 Now what happened with the videotape from the Chinese restaurant? 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:20.560 They said that the tape wasn't recording. 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:21.800 Do you believe that? 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:24.520 To be honest, I don't know what to believe anymore. 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:25.920 I used to have a lot of faith in the 0:16:26.000 --> 0:16:30.000 condicial system, but from being a cross rated myself and 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:32.600 listening to some of the other Harves stories from people 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:35.440 in here with me, I don't know what to believe now. 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:54.560 They had their man, and any other evidence that existed 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:59.760 then were emerged later that suggested Anthony was innocent or 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:03.120 that Graves was guilty was just an inconvenience to the 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:07.480 prosecution's case, and so it was not disclosed to the defense. 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:10.119 And of course listeners of this show will know that 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:13.760 when the authorities withhold exculpatory evidence, it's called a Brady violation. 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:17.560 Brady violations are illegal, but as our listeners also know, 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:23.280 Brady violations rarely seemed to bring any actual ramifications for 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.280 the people who commit them, so it just keeps fucking 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:29.320 happening in case after case, And in this case, I 0:17:29.359 --> 0:17:32.760 believe the worst Brady violation, the worst one among so many, 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:35.679 is the sole independent witness who came forward in this 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:38.639 case that I alluded to earlier, whose statement was hidden 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:41.600 from the defense. Will refer to her only as Rachel. 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:46.720 So Rachel was right outside the Chinese restaurant where the 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:49.600 murder occurred, talking on a pay phone. This was an 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:54.119 undisputed fact, and police spoke to her, and initially she 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:58.000 said that she had heard the shot and seen people 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:01.760 running from the Chinese restaurant, but she didn't have her 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:05.560 contacts in and so she couldn't identify who those people were. 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:06.960 That was what she said. 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:11.240 Now, this was not a neighborhood where it was easy 0:18:11.359 --> 0:18:14.639 to report to police who you had seen involved in 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:17.480 a murder, much less if that person was your neighbor. 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:20.439 And actually Rachel, who was seventeen at the time, she 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:24.760 was neighbors with Julius Graves. Now, a couple of weeks 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:29.000 went by and Rachel had kept this information to herself, 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:33.520 but her conscience was gnawing away at her. She learned 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:37.560 that Anthony had been wrongfully arrested for the crime, and 0:18:37.960 --> 0:18:43.120 she actually received a call from Anthony's wife at the time, Keisha, 0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:46.440 who said to Rachel, I hear you were present at 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:49.240 the scene and that you may have seen something. Please 0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:52.440 just talk to police, tell them what you saw, whatever 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:55.360 you saw, Please just tell them the truth. Now, at 0:18:55.400 --> 0:19:00.199 around the same time, Rachel actually had an exchange with 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:05.280 Graves and his fiance outside of their brownstone. During that exchange, 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:09.600 there was an argument and Rachel said, you know, I 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.239 know what you did. I saw what you did, and 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:16.280 what had she seen? In truth, she had seen Julius Graves, 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:20.600 her neighbor, running from the Chinese restaurant with a shotgun 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:23.639 right after the shot was fired, so she knew that 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:26.480 he had run off with a weapon and was likely 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:28.840 the killer. And she said, I know what you did, 0:19:28.840 --> 0:19:31.440 and you're trying to put it on somebody else. And 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:35.680 Graves said, you talk too much, and if you keep talking, 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:40.919 I'm going to shut you up. And Rachel was terrified, 0:19:41.680 --> 0:19:45.080 but she was also angry at what was happening and 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.359 at the injustice and also at the way Graves was 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:51.960 talking to her, and so she called police. Spoke to 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:55.840 a detective and she said, I saw Julius Graves running 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:59.720 from the Chinese restaurant with a big, long gun. I 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:03.520 know it was him. He's my neighbor. And the detective said, 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:06.760 we already have another guy. It was the taller guy. 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:10.760 Anthony is six', Three graves is five to. Nine rachel, said, 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:14.119 NO i, know they look completely. DIFFERENT i know that 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:16.720 it Was graves who was running with a, shotgun and 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:19.440 the detective basically, said, well thank you for your time 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:23.280 and hung up the. Phone they had already Arrested anthony 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:25.399 and decided he was the guy they were going to 0:20:25.480 --> 0:20:26.040 pin the murder. 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:30.400 On Shaw leek had anticipated That rachel could go to the. 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:35.480 Police so Shaw leek reports That rachel said That graves 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:38.840 had committed the murder and she spun that as. Harassment 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:42.960 that was a written. Report they had that. Report but 0:20:43.080 --> 0:20:47.560 IF i can complete that, incredibly even Though rachel lived 0:20:47.640 --> 0:20:52.720 next door To, charlie they did not Question rachel at 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:57.080 all about that police. Report they didn't go up knock 0:20:57.160 --> 0:20:58.679 on the door and say is this? 0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:02.280 True have to go across the country to interview, somebody 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:04.920 or across the, state right to go across the, street 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:09.960 across the street somebody who actually had begged to be, 0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:14.840 interviewed right, who even though she had been threatened by 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:17.600 a really dangerous, guy was, like, No i'm going to 0:21:17.640 --> 0:21:19.879 do the right thing as someone we could be proud, 0:21:19.920 --> 0:21:23.080 of you know that comes forward in a situation like. 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:26.920 This but instead she just got shut down by those 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:30.200 who are supposed to protect, us which Left graves out 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:33.280 on the streets to potentially commit more violent, crimes While 0:21:33.359 --> 0:21:36.000 anthony was stripped of his freedom and civil. Rights so 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:39.000 back to this. Investigation if you want to call it, 0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:42.800 that the grandmother Of graves's, children you, know Char leak's 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:46.640 mom signs on to parrot some of the. Narrative this 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:50.200 Is Dorothy, bolding whose story changed from her initial interview 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:54.360 when she didn't Mention Anthony graves or even having been 0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:59.840 at Mister hings at. All this interview critical information here 0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:02.840 hidden from the, defense and by the time the grand 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:06.040 jury and the trial roll, around she's changed her, story 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:09.520 now claiming to be able to Implicate anthony in the. 0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:14.359 Murder but still the investigators needed to get someone outside 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:17.000 Of graves's inner circle in order to strengthen the. Case 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:20.399 and AS i alluded to, earlier this is the only 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:23.800 other witness Besides rachel who was not directly related To. 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:27.520 Graves she was a single mom who certainly appears to 0:22:27.560 --> 0:22:31.080 have been coerced into giving an ambiguous statement that helped 0:22:31.080 --> 0:22:33.920