1 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: On eighteenth, nineteen ninety eight, a woman named Rachel claims 2 00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:10,119 Speaker 1: to have seen her neighbors Julius Graves and Charlie Winbush talking. 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Charleik was telling her fiance Graves about how a man 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,840 Speaker 1: named Lee run Chen, who worked at the Chinese restaurant 5 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: up the block Mister Hinks, had touched her inappropriately. Graves 6 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:25,560 Speaker 1: replied that he would scare him. Later that day, Julius Graves, 7 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: his fiance's cousin, and another younger friend had a few 8 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: drinks with Graves's friend, Anthony Simms as they listened to 9 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:35,639 Speaker 1: music by Anthony's car. As the evening wrapped up, Graves 10 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:38,479 Speaker 1: asked Anthony to drive him down the block to mister Hinks. 11 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:42,639 Speaker 1: Oblivious to any issue with Chen, Anthony agreed. They went 12 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: into the restaurant, when it is believed that Graves shot 13 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: and killed Lee run Chen. In shock, Anthony fled alone 14 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: while Graves and the two younger guys returned to Graves's apartment, 15 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: wiped the gun clean, figured out where to stash it, 16 00:00:56,080 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: and began to conjure up a story to deflect blame 17 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: from Graves and on Anthony Simms. With Graves at a 18 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,759 Speaker 1: number of his friends and family supporting this phony narrative, 19 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: investigators set their sights on Anthony. Only one witness came 20 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: forward independently who was neither coerced nor friends and family 21 00:01:14,840 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: of Julius Graves, Graves's neighbor Rachel, who was on the 22 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,880 Speaker 1: phone outside of mister Hins during the shooting and saw 23 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: Graves running from the restaurant with a soft off shotgun 24 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: in his hand. Yet her statement was ignored by investigators 25 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: and hidden from the defense, and as a result, Anthony 26 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: Simms continues to serve twenty five years to life. This 27 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: is wrongful conviction with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to wrongful 28 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: conviction with Jason Flamm. That's me and today if you 29 00:01:57,280 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: hear my voice, sounds sort of down. I mean, this 30 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: is one of the most troubling wrongful conviction cases that 31 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: I've ever seen in twenty eight years of doing this work, 32 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: which is almost as long as Anthony Simms has been 33 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: locked up for a crime he obviously didn't commit. First 34 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,399 Speaker 1: of all, I want to introduce the two attorneys who 35 00:02:18,440 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: are so devoted to this case and to this man, 36 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: Jonathan Hiles and Thomas Hoffman. Thank you both for being here. 37 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:25,400 Speaker 2: Thank you. 38 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 3: Thank you for doing. 39 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,079 Speaker 1: This Jason, and now of course saving the best for last. 40 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: And I'm just so sorry that you're here under these circumstances. 41 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,280 Speaker 1: But I'm honestly honored that you're here with us today 42 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: on the podcast. So Anthony Simms, welcome to Rawful Conviction. 43 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: And Anthony, of course, is now a forty five year 44 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:48,880 Speaker 1: old man, twenty four years into a twenty five to 45 00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: life sentence for a murder he didn't commit. Now, this 46 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 1: began back in nineteen ninety eight, but I want to 47 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: go back even further than that. Anthony, where did you 48 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: grow up and what was your childhood like? Was it 49 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: a happy childhood? 50 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 2: Yes? I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, and I 51 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 2: grow with a mother, father and my two older brothers, 52 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 2: and we had was a very happy, loving family. We 53 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 2: would do a lot of fun activity together, go on vacations. 54 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 2: I remember every Sunday with family Day. Whatever thing we 55 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 2: needed to do we had to do together as a family. 56 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: And leading up to when this awful crime occurred, you 57 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: had kids a Beyonce at that time. What was life 58 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 1: like for you? 59 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 2: I lived with that thought was a normal life. I 60 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 2: worked for Bell Atlantic Telephone Company, and I was a 61 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 2: field technician. I instill a phone lines and provided doubts 62 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 2: on the customers. I live with my fiance Keisha and 63 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 2: my two sons at the town and we would do 64 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 2: a lot of family things together as a told of 65 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 2: every family oriented, so we would go out to movies, parks, breakfast, 66 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 2: ride everything. We would just do as much as we 67 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 2: can possibly. 68 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:01,600 Speaker 1: So this brings us to May eighteenth, nineteen eighty, when you, Anthony, 69 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: witnessed a terrible crime. There was a Chinese restaurant, Mister Hings, 70 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,119 Speaker 1: which was down the block from where your former friend 71 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: Julius Grace lived, and around ten o'clock that night, a 72 00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: man named Lee Runschen, who worked at Mister Hings, was 73 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: shot and killed. But earlier that day, before any of 74 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: that happened, you thought you were just going to swing 75 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: by Graves's apartment to show him this new car you 76 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: bought your fiance Keisha. 77 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 2: So this day I decided to Baja Kong. And Julius 78 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 2: Graves was at that time my best friend, and of 79 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 2: course because I bought the car, was happy. I wanted 80 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:37,479 Speaker 2: to show him the car, and I bought my wife 81 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 2: to a process. So I drove to his house at 82 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 2: that time. So during that time, he asked me to 83 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 2: drive him to the liquor store. I drove him to 84 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 2: the liquor store. I went to the regular store and 85 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 2: bought some beer. We was talking. I was letting the 86 00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 2: music play from my car radio, and then his two 87 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 2: friends came over, his fiance's cousin Derek and then later 88 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,679 Speaker 2: on his friend Louis, and they was listening to music 89 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: with us. And I want to say, like around ten o'clock, 90 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 2: it was getting late. I wanted to go home show 91 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,280 Speaker 2: my wife the cause and I wanted to be home 92 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: with my sons. So during that time, Julius asked me 93 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,760 Speaker 2: to drive him to the Chinese restaurant. So I thought 94 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,440 Speaker 2: this is a weird request because he lived down around 95 00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: a corner from the restaurant, and I thought he could 96 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,600 Speaker 2: have just walked to the restaurant. So I said, I listen, 97 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 2: I was drinking a couple of beers. Let me go 98 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 2: to the door to buy some breastmans, because I don't 99 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 2: like driving around like that. I remember, right before I 100 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 2: decided to go to the store that did the rest 101 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 2: means whatever? I remember Julius saying, listen, and I'm going 102 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 2: to the house. I'm going to go check with Charlie, 103 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 2: which is his girlfriend at the time, to see if 104 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 2: she wanted anything from the store as well. So I said, 105 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 2: all right, so I can only assume him that's the 106 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 2: time that he got the weapon. And when I got 107 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: back to my car, Julius was sitting in my passenger 108 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 2: seat and his two little friends were sitting in the back. 109 00:05:55,080 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 2: They know that I didn't expect him to be in 110 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 2: a car because they looked at me with this look like, 111 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:00,919 Speaker 2: all right, but we're just going to go to this 112 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 2: restaurant with you. So I didn't think nothing. I very 113 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:04,640 Speaker 2: I got in the car and I drove to the 114 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,919 Speaker 2: Chinese restaurant. When I got out the car, I looked 115 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:10,600 Speaker 2: back and I noticed they were still sitting in the car. 116 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: So I was like, all right, come on, because I'm 117 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 2: not driving your home from here. I'm going straight home 118 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:16,080 Speaker 2: because it was getting late, so I decided to proceed 119 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: to the Chinese restaurant. When I got inside of the restaurant, 120 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:22,839 Speaker 2: I started looking around for the menus and stuff to 121 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 2: see what I was going to purchase for my wife. 122 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 2: The next thing I know, I saw Julius come in 123 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 2: the store. With like a weird expression on his face, 124 00:06:30,240 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 2: and almost immediately he reached him his fans and pulled 125 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 2: out a soda sod gun and I remember thinking, like, 126 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 2: what the hell was going on? And where did he 127 00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 2: even get that gun from? I asked, hm, I said, 128 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 2: what the hell are you doing? Are you crazy, Julius 129 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 2: sex He said no, approached the counter, pointed the gun 130 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 2: at one of the workers and pulled the trigger. And 131 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 2: I couldn't believe it. I fell to blood rush for 132 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 2: my body. I was like shocked, and all I remember 133 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 2: at that time just running out the store getting in 134 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,680 Speaker 2: my car. Julius jumped in in too it, and I 135 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 2: said get out. I kicked everybody. I said, everybody get 136 00:07:05,120 --> 00:07:08,239 Speaker 2: out of my car. And I drove home and told 137 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 2: Keisha I happened. That was the worst night of my life. 138 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, it would be the worst night of almost anyone's 139 00:07:16,040 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: life to witness something like that. 140 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 2: That night when I when I went home, I said, 141 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 2: I can't believe it. I mean, I got home, I 142 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 2: got on the phone and I called them and I said, 143 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 2: what the hell is wrong with you? Probably cursed him, 144 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: I said some other things to him that Basically, I 145 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 2: want to know why did he put me in that situation? 146 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 2: Why did he allow me to walk into that? Why 147 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:37,200 Speaker 2: didn't he tell me what was going on? Maybe he 148 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 2: thought I would talk him out of it. I don't know, 149 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 2: but he just kept apologizing. And that's when he told 150 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 2: me that you know the person that he signed out. 151 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 2: I can't believe it. And I said, Julius, don't ever 152 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 2: call me again. I don't want to hear from you 153 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 2: no more. I just wanted to try to separate my cellphone. 154 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 4: So it turns out that Julius Graves had a motive, 155 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 4: and that is that Graves was upset that mister Chen, 156 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 4: who worked at the Chinese restaurant, had reportedly touched the 157 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 4: hand of Graves's fiance Sharleek earlier in the day of 158 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 4: the murder, that he had touched her hand inappropriately. She 159 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 4: was upset about this, she told Graves, and Graves said 160 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 4: that he would go to the restaurant and scare the victim. 161 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 4: We know he did a lot more than that, but 162 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 4: that appears to have been the motive that we didn't 163 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 4: find out until many years later. Now, what was known 164 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 4: at the time is that after the murder, after Anthony 165 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 4: got Graves and his two friends, Derek Dollop and Louis Cologne, 166 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 4: to leave the car. It is undisputed that Graves took 167 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 4: the shotgun used in the murder, went back to the 168 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:49,239 Speaker 4: apartment where he was staying, feverishly wiped off the shotgun 169 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 4: to get his fingerprints off of it, and then gave 170 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 4: the gun to his friend Louis Cologne to hide from police. 171 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 4: And Louis, by the way, was only fourteen years old 172 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 4: at the time. Graves's excuse for doing this is that 173 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 4: he wasn't thinking. That was his only justification for the 174 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 4: fact that he took the murder weapon, wiped it off 175 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 4: his fingerprints, and tried to hide it from police. Now, Furthermore, 176 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 4: this murder weapon, the sawed off shotgun, had previously been 177 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 4: kept in a lock box in the apartment where Graves 178 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 4: was staying, and Graves and his friend Derek Dollop, who 179 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 4: was also his fiance's cousin, admitted even that they knew 180 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 4: the shotgun was kept there and had seen it there before. 181 00:09:33,640 --> 00:09:38,200 Speaker 4: So all the evidence suggested that the shotgun belonged to Graves, 182 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 4: and it is undisputed he had handled it right after 183 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 4: the murder. 184 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: Occurred, right and the physical evidence was seen later proved 185 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 1: that this sawed off shotgun from Graves' apartment was used 186 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: in the murder. So this is where we start seeing 187 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: a narrative being formed from the Graves camp to try 188 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: to deflect responsibility for this murder away from Graves and 189 00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 1: toward Anthony. And initially it will seem like a lot 190 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: of witnesses came forward to support what was really just 191 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 1: coming straight from Graves's imagination and what later became the 192 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 1: prosecution's narrative. But it will become clear as we move 193 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 1: along here that none of these witnesses were to be believed. 194 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: They should have been believed for two reasons. One, it's 195 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:24,200 Speaker 1: discovered later that these eyewitness accounts are initially riddled with 196 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: glaring inconsistencies and contradictions that were then changed to fit 197 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: a cohesive narrative in time for trial, which is just 198 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: not typical what a group of people are telling the 199 00:10:34,679 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 1: truths obviously right. And two, most of the witnesses are 200 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 1: friends and family of Graves. There are only two witnesses, 201 00:10:41,679 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 1: two who are not Graves's friends or family, one of 202 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:48,240 Speaker 1: whom was coerced by police into an ambiguous statement that 203 00:10:48,320 --> 00:10:51,440 Speaker 1: nonetheless helped the prosecution's case at the time of trial, 204 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: and the other is the only independent witness who bravely 205 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: came forward to tell the truth about Graves's motive and 206 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: having seen him running from the restaurant with a gun. However, 207 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: none of this info about these two witnesses was known 208 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: to the defensive trial, but we'll get to that later. Now, 209 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: Right now, let's focus on the dubious narrative coming from 210 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 1: the Graves camp. So, the day after the murder, Sharleek's brother, 211 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 1: William Robertson told police a second hand story from Sharleek 212 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 1: that Sharleek had said that Anthony had come by earlier 213 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: the day of the murder and taken the shotgun out 214 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 1: of the apartment. Then comes the narrative from Graves about 215 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:32,120 Speaker 1: the night of the murder. Okay, ready, So, according to Graves, 216 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:35,720 Speaker 1: Anthony dropped by the apartment around six pm and they 217 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 1: had a few drinks. Anthony allegedly showed Graves a shotgun 218 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: that he had in his trunk, a shotgun that Graves 219 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 1: should have recognized as the one from his apartment, as 220 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: Jonathan just said that Graves had admitted. Now, at some 221 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 1: point Anthony and Graves are joined by Sharleek's cousin Derek 222 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: Dallup and another younger friend, Luis Cologne. According to Graves, 223 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,320 Speaker 1: Anthony had a previous altercation with the victim, Lee run Chen, 224 00:12:01,400 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: who worked at the Chinese restaurant down the block, Mister Hings. 225 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 1: The reason behind this disagreement and the timing changed between 226 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: initial interviews and trial. In this farcical version of events, 227 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: Anthony allegedly had refused to pay for something at Mister 228 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: Hings because it was either something he hadn't ordered, or 229 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: some chicken was undercooked, or it didn't look right. You know, 230 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: lying is tricky that way, right, It gets hard to 231 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:30,920 Speaker 1: keep track of your own bullshit. Anyway, At the time 232 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,840 Speaker 1: of this alleged problem and refusal of payment, Lee run 233 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: Chen allegedly pulled a gun on Anthony, to which Anthony 234 00:12:38,679 --> 00:12:42,480 Speaker 1: allegedly responded that he would get Chen for this. So 235 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: this patently ridiculous and poorly written story is what established 236 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: Anthony's alleged motive to murder Lee run Chen. According to Graves, 237 00:12:52,920 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: that night in the lead up to the murder, Anthony 238 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 1: brought up this two to three week old and then 239 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: later four to five month old several times and was 240 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: getting heated up about it before they headed to mister Hings, 241 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: where Anthony was the one who allegedly shot Lee run Chen, 242 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: not Graves, whose fiance had complained to him about Chen's 243 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: inappropriate touching earlier that day. So this just super believable 244 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 1: narrative is what became the prosecution's theory. 245 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 2: I don't even know what to say at this point, 246 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 2: but it just feels liberated to hear you retell that 247 00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 2: story because it sounded crazy to me, and from you 248 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 2: saying how craze it sounds to you, that means a 249 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 2: lot because I've always believed down the line that the 250 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:37,719 Speaker 2: truth was going to come out and the truth was 251 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 2: going to set me free. I didn't know that it 252 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 2: would be in prison twenty three years before this truth came. 253 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,160 Speaker 1: Out, and it's going to be out there now finally 254 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: for everyone to hear, to shine a much needed light 255 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 1: on this terrible and tragic injustice. There are a lot 256 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: of good people working on your behalf right now, not 257 00:13:55,320 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: least of which, of course, are your lawyers and Jonathan. 258 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: There's even more than about Graves's ridiculous narrative. 259 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:07,479 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think the chronology of how the investigation unfolded, 260 00:14:07,960 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 4: which Jason, you've sort of given that it was Graves 261 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 4: trying to divert attention from himself, his friends, and his family, 262 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 4: and that's why the murder got pinned on Anthony, because 263 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 4: the case against Graves was so overwhelming that there had 264 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 4: to be a scapegoat, and the story against Anthony was 265 00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 4: not only ridiculous, but as he alluded to, it was 266 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:36,120 Speaker 4: so inconsistent. Graves first actually told police Anthony and Graves's 267 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,280 Speaker 4: other two friends had gone to the Chinese restaurant earlier 268 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,640 Speaker 4: on that evening and then come back and Anthony was 269 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 4: heated about an argument with the victim. But Graves's two 270 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 4: friends never said they went to the Chinese restaurant. It 271 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 4: was just made up. So Graves had to change his 272 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 4: story and say that he had witnessed an argument between 273 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 4: Anthony and the victim months earlier over a food order, 274 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 4: and that Anthony was still fuming about this months later 275 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 4: on the night of the murder. Again, Graves's friends right, 276 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 4: who were trying to back him up. They never said 277 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 4: that Anthony had any beef with a victim or was 278 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 4: fuming about it in the car that evening. So the 279 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 4: story never really made sense, But what was important to 280 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 4: police and prosecutors, unfortunately, was clearing the case. And once 281 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 4: they had Graves and his two friends who were willing 282 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 4: to point the finger at Anthony as a scapegoat, the 283 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 4: train had left the station. 284 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,600 Speaker 1: Okay, so they've got their site set on you, Anthony. 285 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: And initially they show up at your job, but you 286 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: were out that day. This tipped you off though that 287 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: they were at least looking to talk to you, and 288 00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: eventually you went involuntarily. I mean, you were an innocent man. 289 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: So did you think, well, I'll just go in there, 290 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 1: clear this up and head on home. 291 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 2: I did, And a big key as we left out 292 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 2: was there was a camera inside of that restaurant, so 293 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 2: I thought, regardless that somebody would at one point in 294 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 2: Tom reviewed it, and then I had nothing to worry 295 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,840 Speaker 2: about the tape with clear everything up for me. So yes, 296 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 2: I drove myself to the precinct. And that's why it's 297 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 2: been ever since knocked away. 298 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: You never walked out of there again, never walked out. 299 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: Now what happened with the videotape from the Chinese restaurant? 300 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 2: They said that the tape wasn't recording. 301 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: Do you believe that? 302 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 2: To be honest, I don't know what to believe anymore. 303 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 2: I used to have a lot of faith in the 304 00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 2: condicial system, but from being a cross rated myself and 305 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 2: listening to some of the other Harves stories from people 306 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 2: in here with me, I don't know what to believe now. 307 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 4: They had their man, and any other evidence that existed 308 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 4: then were emerged later that suggested Anthony was innocent or 309 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 4: that Graves was guilty was just an inconvenience to the 310 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 4: prosecution's case, and so it was not disclosed to the defense. 311 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 1: And of course listeners of this show will know that 312 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: when the authorities withhold exculpatory evidence, it's called a Brady violation. 313 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: Brady violations are illegal, but as our listeners also know, 314 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 1: Brady violations rarely seemed to bring any actual ramifications for 315 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,280 Speaker 1: the people who commit them, so it just keeps fucking 316 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: happening in case after case, And in this case, I 317 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: believe the worst Brady violation, the worst one among so many, 318 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 1: is the sole independent witness who came forward in this 319 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:38,639 Speaker 1: case that I alluded to earlier, whose statement was hidden 320 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: from the defense. Will refer to her only as Rachel. 321 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 4: So Rachel was right outside the Chinese restaurant where the 322 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 4: murder occurred, talking on a pay phone. This was an 323 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 4: undisputed fact, and police spoke to her, and initially she 324 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 4: said that she had heard the shot and seen people 325 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 4: running from the Chinese restaurant, but she didn't have her 326 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 4: contacts in and so she couldn't identify who those people were. 327 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 2: That was what she said. 328 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 4: Now, this was not a neighborhood where it was easy 329 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 4: to report to police who you had seen involved in 330 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 4: a murder, much less if that person was your neighbor. 331 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,439 Speaker 4: And actually Rachel, who was seventeen at the time, she 332 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 4: was neighbors with Julius Graves. Now, a couple of weeks 333 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 4: went by and Rachel had kept this information to herself, 334 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 4: but her conscience was gnawing away at her. She learned 335 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 4: that Anthony had been wrongfully arrested for the crime, and 336 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 4: she actually received a call from Anthony's wife at the time, Keisha, 337 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,440 Speaker 4: who said to Rachel, I hear you were present at 338 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 4: the scene and that you may have seen something. Please 339 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 4: just talk to police, tell them what you saw, whatever 340 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,360 Speaker 4: you saw, Please just tell them the truth. Now, at 341 00:18:55,400 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 4: around the same time, Rachel actually had an exchange with 342 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 4: Graves and his fiance outside of their brownstone. During that exchange, 343 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 4: there was an argument and Rachel said, you know, I 344 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,239 Speaker 4: know what you did. I saw what you did, and 345 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 4: what had she seen? In truth, she had seen Julius Graves, 346 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 4: her neighbor, running from the Chinese restaurant with a shotgun 347 00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,639 Speaker 4: right after the shot was fired, so she knew that 348 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 4: he had run off with a weapon and was likely 349 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 4: the killer. And she said, I know what you did, 350 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,440 Speaker 4: and you're trying to put it on somebody else. And 351 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 4: Graves said, you talk too much, and if you keep talking, 352 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:40,919 Speaker 4: I'm going to shut you up. And Rachel was terrified, 353 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,080 Speaker 4: but she was also angry at what was happening and 354 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 4: at the injustice and also at the way Graves was 355 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 4: talking to her, and so she called police. Spoke to 356 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 4: a detective and she said, I saw Julius Graves running 357 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 4: from the Chinese restaurant with a big, long gun. I 358 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 4: know it was him. He's my neighbor. And the detective said, 359 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 4: we already have another guy. It was the taller guy. 360 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 4: Anthony is six', Three graves is five to. Nine rachel, said, 361 00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 4: NO i, know they look completely. DIFFERENT i know that 362 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 4: it Was graves who was running with a, shotgun and 363 00:20:16,760 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 4: the detective basically, said, well thank you for your time 364 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,280 Speaker 4: and hung up the. Phone they had already Arrested anthony 365 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 4: and decided he was the guy they were going to 366 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 4: pin the murder. 367 00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 3: On Shaw leek had anticipated That rachel could go to the. 368 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 3: Police so Shaw leek reports That rachel said That graves 369 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 3: had committed the murder and she spun that as. Harassment 370 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 3: that was a written. Report they had that. Report but 371 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 3: IF i can complete that, incredibly even Though rachel lived 372 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 3: next door To, charlie they did not Question rachel at 373 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 3: all about that police. Report they didn't go up knock 374 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 3: on the door and say is this? 375 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: True have to go across the country to interview, somebody 376 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,920 Speaker 1: or across the, state right to go across the, street 377 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: across the street somebody who actually had begged to be, 378 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: interviewed right, who even though she had been threatened by 379 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: a really dangerous, guy was, like, No i'm going to 380 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: do the right thing as someone we could be proud, 381 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 1: of you know that comes forward in a situation like. 382 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: This but instead she just got shut down by those 383 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,200 Speaker 1: who are supposed to protect, us which Left graves out 384 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 1: on the streets to potentially commit more violent, crimes While 385 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: anthony was stripped of his freedom and civil. Rights so 386 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: back to this. Investigation if you want to call it, 387 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: that the grandmother Of graves's, children you, know Char leak's 388 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 1: mom signs on to parrot some of the. Narrative this 389 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 1: Is Dorothy, bolding whose story changed from her initial interview 390 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:54,360 Speaker 1: when she didn't Mention Anthony graves or even having been 391 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:59,840 Speaker 1: at Mister hings at. All this interview critical information here 392 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: hidden from the, defense and by the time the grand 393 00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: jury and the trial roll, around she's changed her, story 394 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: now claiming to be able to Implicate anthony in the. 395 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: Murder but still the investigators needed to get someone outside 396 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: Of graves's inner circle in order to strengthen the. Case 397 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,399 Speaker 1: and AS i alluded to, earlier this is the only 398 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: other witness Besides rachel who was not directly related To. 399 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 1: Graves she was a single mom who certainly appears to 400 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: have been coerced into giving an ambiguous statement that helped 401 00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: the prosecution's case a, trial and will refer to this 402 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 1: witness As. 403 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 4: Shalima Now, shalima as we have since, learned she initially 404 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 4: told police that, she when visiting her friend's apartment across 405 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:46,959 Speaker 4: the street from the, murder had heard this loud, bang 406 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 4: had looked out the window across the street from a 407 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 4: second floor on a dark, night and had seen a 408 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,879 Speaker 4: couple of men ran out of The chinese, restaurant but 409 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,680 Speaker 4: she couldn't describe them at. All it seemed that one 410 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 4: of them appeared to be holding a long, gun but 411 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 4: she couldn't make any sort of description because it was 412 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 4: dark and it was a very fleeting. Observation and they, said, 413 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 4: well let's take you in and see if we can 414 00:23:12,080 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 4: refresh your. Memory they took her, in they separated her 415 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:20,640 Speaker 4: from her young, child and they interrogated her for hours 416 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:24,679 Speaker 4: and intimidated her and wouldn't tell her where her child, 417 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 4: was which she kept, Asking and then eventually they emerged 418 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 4: with a report saying that she identified the taller man 419 00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 4: as being the one holding the, gun which was something 420 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 4: that was clearly fed to her because she told police 421 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 4: that she couldn't describe the men she had, seen including 422 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,399 Speaker 4: the person who was running with the. Gun we first 423 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 4: learned that in the past. Year shalima, SAID i don't 424 00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 4: know HOW i could have testified THAT i saw the 425 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 4: taller man running with the. SHOTGUN i couldn't have made a, 426 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 4: description and that's WHAT i told, Detectives and their response 427 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,479 Speaker 4: was to take me in for basically a full day of, 428 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 4: interrogation separated from my, child until they had pressured her 429 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,919 Speaker 4: to give them what they. Wanted and so the prosecution 430 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 4: really leaned on her with this made up story that 431 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 4: they sort of force fed her because she was the 432 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 4: only witness who wasn't totally biased in favor Of. 433 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,399 Speaker 1: Graves, right so now they finally had someone as shaky 434 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,240 Speaker 1: as this idea was to corroborate what The graves camp was. 435 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,959 Speaker 1: Saying So july, second nineteen ninety, eight they charged, You, 436 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: anthony with two counts of murder in the second degree 437 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,720 Speaker 1: intentional and depraved, indifference and one count of criminal possession 438 00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: of a weapon in the fourth, degree a weapon that 439 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 1: you had never even held in your, Hand and before 440 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 1: trial even began In april nineteen ninety, Nine graves attempted to. 441 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:54,120 Speaker 4: Disappear graves didn't want to. Testify he wanted to get 442 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 4: himself off of the, hook but even he perhaps had 443 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 4: some pangs of conscience about falsely implicating someone who had 444 00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 4: formerly been his, friend and so he went underground before 445 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 4: the trials, started and he was on probation at the, 446 00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 4: time actually on a weapons possession, charge and he hadn't 447 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 4: been reporting to his probation officer for three, years and 448 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:23,320 Speaker 4: so The District attorney's office actually initiated proceedings to Revoke 449 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:27,479 Speaker 4: graves's probation so that he would be remanded to prison, 450 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 4: Potentially and in the, Meantime graves went into hiding because 451 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 4: he didn't want to participate in the prosecution's, case which, 452 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 4: was as you, Said, jason a made up case that 453 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 4: was based On graves's own. 454 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: Lives this one's really. MYSTIFYING i, mean you have a 455 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: guy who has a propensity to, violence who knows his 456 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 1: way around with, weapons who was a possession of the, 457 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 1: gun who had a previous weapons, violation and it's, like, 458 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: yeah now we're just going to ignore. 459 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 3: That julius was asked, directly have you reported to your 460 00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 3: probation officer often and? Regularly he answered yes when he 461 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:06,240 Speaker 3: hadn't reported for three, years and that why was not, 462 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:11,199 Speaker 3: Corrected and clearly the credibility Of graves was. Critical we 463 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,880 Speaker 3: did not know that he had not reported till last. 464 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,439 Speaker 1: Year So at, trial the state Presented shalima along With 465 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: graves's cadre of liars Right graves, himself of, course and 466 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,560 Speaker 1: this fiance's Cousin Derek, dallap his Friend Louis, cologne and 467 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: the grandmother Of graves's two, Children Dorothy. Bolding Now bolding's 468 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 1: story changed. Twice in her initial, interview she didn't mention Seeing, 469 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: Graves anthony or even having been At Mister, Hings and 470 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: then at the grand jury she testified that while drinking 471 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: outside Of Mister hings she Saw anthony enter with a 472 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 1: long gun and heard a shot fired Before graves entered the. 473 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: Restaurant then at, TRIAL i don't, know maybe she had 474 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: some pangs of conscience either, way, though she testified that 475 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: Shew anthony go, in followed By, graves then heard a 476 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 1: gunshot but never saw a. 477 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 4: Gun Miss bolding for initial report would have really discredit 478 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 4: her as a prosecution witness was not. Disclosed also not 479 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 4: disclosed or bias given her relation To Julius. 480 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: Graves, okay so now There's. Shalima she also testified against, You. 481 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: Anthony she said that on the night of the, shooting 482 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: she was visiting a friend who lived on the second 483 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 1: floor in an apartment across the street from Mister. Hings 484 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,160 Speaker 1: she said that she heard a gunshot and looked out 485 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 1: the window to see two black men running from the, 486 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,479 Speaker 1: restaurant and that, quote the taller guy had a. 487 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 4: Gun this was helpful for the prosecution Because anthony was 488 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 4: taller Than. Graves, Now salima did not Identify. Anthony the 489 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 4: prosecutor tried to get her to Identify. Anthony you, know 490 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 4: look around the. Courtroom is the person you saw running 491 00:27:55,240 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 4: with the gun? Here she, SAID i don't, KNOW i can't. 492 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 4: Say and also she testified that of the two men 493 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 4: she saw, running it was the person who was running, 494 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 4: second who was behind who was running with the. Shotgun 495 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 4: graves testified that he was running, second that he was Behind. 496 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:17,679 Speaker 4: Anthony so actually her testimony was very, ambiguous but it 497 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 4: was really the only thing the prosecution had that came 498 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 4: outside Of graves's inner. Circle and as a, result the 499 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 4: failure to disclose What shalima had told detectives from the 500 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,680 Speaker 4: beginning that she couldn't describe anything was a very Damaging 501 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 4: brady violation For anthony's. 502 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:42,440 Speaker 1: Defense was there any real defense mounted in your, Case? Anthony, On, no. 503 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 2: We didn't even call any witnesses on, behalf although as 504 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 2: my lawyer cannot, Testify and he, said, no what rightful 505 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 2: person would just sit there and listen to people say 506 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 2: certain things about him and not defend, Himself like he 507 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 2: was really confident that there was no need for them 508 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 2: because the case was a weak case and they eventually 509 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 2: be able to, say you, Know julia did or, whatever 510 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 2: and that was. That SO i didn't really have a. 511 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: Defense so after hearing From graves's network of liars And 512 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: shalema's ambiguous, testimony and then importantly the absence Of, rachel 513 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: did you still hold out any hope at all that 514 00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 1: you'd be? 515 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 2: VINDICATED i did only because it was a time during 516 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,040 Speaker 2: the deliberations or the jury came back into the court 517 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 2: room and they passed to note the sitting with, deadline 518 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 2: and the jet, said, well, Listen i'm going to give 519 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 2: you a brief allent. Charge it was almost like a 520 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 2: kangaroo court because he was basically, saying, WELL i don't 521 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 2: know what the problem. Is it's not like he's facing 522 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 2: the death. Money go give me a. Verdict and they 523 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 2: needed some, rebacks some courts and, stuff AND i looked 524 00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,640 Speaker 2: at my lawyer at that, point AND i was. MAD i, said, 525 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 2: well maybe IF i, testified maybe it would have been, 526 00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 2: Different maybe you wouldn't be at this, point but to 527 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 2: answer a, question AND i was still, hopeful although hope 528 00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 2: was slipping away at that. 529 00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: Point but they came back and found you. Guilty what 530 00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 1: was that moment was that if you can just take 531 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 1: us inside that courtroom and inside your mind and your. 532 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,280 Speaker 1: Soul at that, MOMENT. 533 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 2: I was, shocked, CONFUSED i was, hurt, devastated. NAUSEOUS i, 534 00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 2: MEAN i was. ANGRY i remember trying to stand, up 535 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:30,840 Speaker 2: BUT i didn't have any feeling in my lady because 536 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 2: it's so. Weak, ironically what was going through my mind 537 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 2: at that point was my son's because they were so, 538 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 2: young and every NIGHT i would tell them crazy bedtime, 539 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 2: stories either one THAT i read from a book OR 540 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 2: i used to make up some. Stories and he looked 541 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,719 Speaker 2: forward to going to sleep just ABOUT i could come 542 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 2: in the room and telling them. Stories AND i said to, 543 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 2: Myself i'm not going to be able to do that 544 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 2: for a. 545 00:30:52,480 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 5: While as you can. 546 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 2: Imagine for the first couple of, YEARS i was very. 547 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 2: BETTER i WAS i was, MAD i was, angry AND 548 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 2: i was almost like a Walking, tommie so to. SPEAK i, 549 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 2: MEAN i was always trying to do programs and stuff 550 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 2: and trying to help myself and help other people as, 551 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 2: well but INSIDE i was really messed. Up AND i 552 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 2: remember going on the visit one day and my, son 553 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 2: Little Anthony, junior WHICH i loved to die of both my, 554 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 2: sons he was. Crying he just broke out one day 555 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 2: crying on a visit and he, Said, daddy don't, Worry 556 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,720 Speaker 2: i'm Gonna i'm gonna Get julius to doing this to, 557 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 2: you because he had known at that Point julias as 558 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 2: his uncle because we were so. Close AND i looked 559 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 2: at him AND i, said, No, anthony don't don't ever 560 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 2: say that. AGAIN i, SAID i don't ever say. That, 561 00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 2: No AND i was basically letting them know that the 562 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 2: law will mentally prevail and there to work it self. 563 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 2: Out and in the same tids he looked at me 564 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 2: and he, says, well And, dad and you got to 565 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 2: promise me that you would never do anything to him 566 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 2: Linger AND i, SAID i. WON'T i promise you. That 567 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 2: and it was that point THAT i forgave you is 568 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,680 Speaker 2: AND i continue to live my life as a life 569 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 2: giver for, them but also trying to help any and 570 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,080 Speaker 2: everybody out because in a sense helping me as. Well 571 00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 2: but that was my turning. Point that's WHEN i forgave 572 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 2: him for doing what he. 573 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 1: Did, wow sounds like you did a hell of a, 574 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: job even in the brief time you have with your, 575 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 1: sons raising them and teaching them. 576 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 2: Right, unfortunately prison has a way to divis, families as 577 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 2: you can only. Imagine so my son's, mother which is 578 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 2: my wife at the, town her name is Also, keisher 579 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 2: this PRISON vi became too much for her for, us 580 00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 2: and it felt LIKE i was holding her back from 581 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 2: living her. Life so we both came to the agreement 582 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 2: that we should just divorce and sipara so that she 583 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,640 Speaker 2: can live the life of the speak And god always 584 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 2: has a way of making things. Happen but my wife, 585 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 2: today which is also Named, keisha it is my junior 586 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 2: high school. Girlfriend she was my cheerleader WHEN i was 587 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 2: the captain of the basketball. Team So jesus started to 588 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 2: write me and one thing turned into. Another all of 589 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,600 Speaker 2: the old films came back and we decided to try 590 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 2: one more time and get. Married and that was probably 591 00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 2: the best decision of my. 592 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 6: Life my name Is Keisha, simms AND i Am Anthony simms's, 593 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 6: wife and it is it's the best decision that we've 594 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 6: ever made That i've ever. Made anthony AND i, were you, 595 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 6: know junior high school. Sweethearts you, know people in the 596 00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 6: situation always think that the people in, prison you, know 597 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,440 Speaker 6: they should be grateful that someone they's just type to 598 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 6: commitment to them under these. Circumstances but for, Me anthony 599 00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 6: has brought just so much to my. Life he hasn't 600 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,680 Speaker 6: riched my life so. Much i've grown so much as 601 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 6: a person because of. Him this situation in particular has 602 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 6: made me, stronger and So i'm just grateful that he 603 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 6: chose me to go on this journey with him and 604 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 6: to fight for his. 605 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 2: Innocence one, DAY i was reading the newspaper from a 606 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 2: friend of mine Named Kevin. Jenkins he asked me to 607 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 2: read this article because the articles involved the person that 608 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 2: we both knew From greenhaviors AND Vnue. Cooper kevin suggested 609 00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 2: THAT i try to get in touch With Tom, hoffman 610 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 2: the lawyer got this guy. Out SO i talked to 611 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,839 Speaker 2: my wife and she said that night it was all 612 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:42,800 Speaker 2: for her to sleep because she worked around a lot of. 613 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 2: Lawyers she knew that she only had one shot at 614 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 2: this and she was making a little bullet. Points she 615 00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,480 Speaker 2: was rehearsing what she would saying because she knew that 616 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,200 Speaker 2: it was really important to Obtain Thomas. Houseman she. Said 617 00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:54,840 Speaker 2: the first Thing tom wanted to know was was he, 618 00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 2: anything because he would not represent anybody who was not. 619 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 2: Innocent and, keithas, oh yes he, is But i'm going 620 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:03,800 Speaker 2: to change some information so that you can see it for. 621 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 6: Yourself at that, POINT i had all Of anthony's legal 622 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 6: work because his son had kept all of his, documentation 623 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 6: and he, said, well send me everything that you. Have 624 00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 6: So i'm working from. Home ALL i have is An 625 00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,879 Speaker 6: adobe scanned app on my phone which can only scan 626 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 6: one page at a. Time one Of anthony's transcripts is 627 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,480 Speaker 6: four hundred and some are. Pages that's just only one. 628 00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 6: Transcript AND i did that for, days you, know trying 629 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 6: to get all the information to. Him and he saw 630 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,719 Speaker 6: all of the, discrepancies you, know and all the violations 631 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 6: and things that we had always. Seen tom knew That 632 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,200 Speaker 6: anthony was, innocent and it was just astounding evidence. 633 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 5: To support that in the rest of. 634 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:54,839 Speaker 2: HISTORY i Got Tom hofford and hand can have doing 635 00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,439 Speaker 2: my case For, bono And i've never had lawyer's work 636 00:35:58,520 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 2: as hard as they. 637 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 1: Were it's an amazing, STORY i, mean a tale Of 638 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 1: tukeisha's which eventually resulted in these two, attorneys which of 639 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,800 Speaker 1: course brings us to the post conviction. Litigation and it 640 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: looks like before you both got, involved there were some 641 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:19,240 Speaker 1: filing surrounding an inappropriate remark by the, prosecutor ineffective assistant, 642 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:24,239 Speaker 1: claims trial court, errors discriminatory jury, challenges all of which 643 00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 1: were serious points but ultimately. Failed there was some new, 644 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,320 Speaker 1: evidence a recantation of trial testimony From. Graves we know 645 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: he was feeling remorseful for Throwing anthony under the, bus 646 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,240 Speaker 1: but he didn't want to come. Clean so THIS Affi 647 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 1: david really is reflective of, that meaning he doesn't tell 648 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: the whole. Truths he basically says That anthony went inside 649 00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:50,440 Speaker 1: Mister hings and, He Julius, graves did. Not he continued 650 00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 1: that he didn't see who Shot chen and was coerced 651 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,800 Speaker 1: to testify that he had Seen anthony do. It so 652 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: it takes the onus off Of, anthony but it's definitely 653 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:03,839 Speaker 1: not the exonerating evidence that one would hope for as 654 00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 1: or the other filings in. 655 00:37:05,440 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 4: This, case everything that sort of happened in those initial 656 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 4: post trial proceedings was sort of skirmishes around secondary, issues 657 00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 4: which unfortunately is often the best you can do for 658 00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 4: a convicted person until you get A Tom hoffman to 659 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,080 Speaker 4: fully reinvestigate the case like a. 660 00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,719 Speaker 1: Detective right Without, tom we wouldn't know the context Around shalima's, 661 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 1: testimony which is what passed for a corroborating witness For 662 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: graves and his whole network of. LIARS i, mean it 663 00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:38,040 Speaker 1: wasn't corroborating testimony at, all but misleading or even pointing 664 00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:41,800 Speaker 1: To graves's. Guilt and then the Major brady violation in 665 00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: Hiding rachel for all of these. Years remember she Witnessed 666 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,800 Speaker 1: charlick And graves talking about the inappropriate touching which established 667 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: the motive she Saw graves running from Mister hinges with the. 668 00:37:53,120 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: Gun then when she Confronted charleick And, graves she was, 669 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 1: threatened you talk too, much you Keep i'm gonna shut you, 670 00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: up was the, quote not to even mention of the 671 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: previously unknown or ignored holes and shifts And graves's. Narrative and, 672 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: finally we haven't even talked about this, yet but there 673 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,279 Speaker 1: was a cook at Mister hings who had a view 674 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 1: of the shooter and described his complexion as quote not. 675 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:22,000 Speaker 1: Black this is consistent With graves's light brown, skin While 676 00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: anthony importantly has a dark. Complexion, So, tom what is 677 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: being done with all of the e sculpatory evidence that you've. 678 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 3: Compiled the four point forty was initially filed In, december 679 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 3: and we Attached rachel's AffA David shalima's. Statement both of 680 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 3: those statements were recorded from beginning to, end all all to. 681 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 3: Goodbye we also found this documentation That graves had lied 682 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,400 Speaker 3: about reporting to his probation officer often and. Regularly we 683 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 3: also found Additional brady, violations and as the case was, 684 00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 3: proceeding we then get even more documents From, foil including 685 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,880 Speaker 3: That graves on the day of his, testimony received, money 686 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:11,279 Speaker 3: received housing together with his, girlfriend his girlfriend's, brother and 687 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,959 Speaker 3: the brother's, girlfriend and then he eventually gets twenty five 688 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 3: thousand dollars in. Benefits all this comes, out so we 689 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 3: then amend our. Petition we also found out That cologne 690 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 3: had told one of his friends that it was his 691 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 3: friend who committed the. Shooting, well his friend Was Julius 692 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 3: graves that was only recently, ascertained as with, others AND 693 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,880 Speaker 3: i should say look the current four forty eighty as 694 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:46,279 Speaker 3: in their, response they did not address any of our. 695 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 3: Allegations Did Julius graves lie or did he not? 696 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:50,320 Speaker 5: Lie not? 697 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,759 Speaker 3: Addressed they said you could have a. Hearing, well the 698 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:59,080 Speaker 3: hearing's gonna take quite a, while And anthony should be home. 699 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 3: Now his children are now twenty seven and twenty, eight 700 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:07,279 Speaker 3: his father recently suffered a. Stroke his eighty eight year 701 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:11,320 Speaker 3: old grandmother wants to see her grandson before she. Dies 702 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 3: the evidence is. Overwhelming anthony should not have to wait any. 703 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:21,080 Speaker 3: Longer the resistance on undoing a wrongful conviction is. 704 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: Youth, yeah, absolutely it is even under normal. Circumstances but 705 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:28,920 Speaker 1: here In brooklyn there's been an even more obstinate than 706 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: usual obstacle in this. Case anthony brought his case to 707 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:35,879 Speaker 1: The Brooklyn Conviction Review unit in twenty, seventeen and one 708 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:37,960 Speaker 1: would think that the good folks there would take one 709 00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 1: look At graves's bullshit and do something about. It but 710 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,359 Speaker 1: the man tasked with running THE CiU In brooklyn since 711 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen Was Mark, hale who just so happens to 712 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 1: be the man who Prosecuted anthony's. Case Hum but and 713 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:58,239 Speaker 1: this is a big, Butt Mark hale just retired at 714 00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:00,640 Speaker 1: the beginning Of july twenty twenty. One so while this 715 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: is good news For, anthony there's still plenty of ways 716 00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:04,919 Speaker 1: that this might not work. 717 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,040 Speaker 3: Out so while we know that our case is, overwhelming 718 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 3: there is no assurance that we're going to, prevail and 719 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 3: that's why we need all of the help that we. 720 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,360 Speaker 4: Can we appreciate all of the listeners to the, podcasts 721 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,439 Speaker 4: and of Course, jason all of your, advocacy what you're 722 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,880 Speaker 4: doing and just giving us a. Platform we have a 723 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,839 Speaker 4: Website Free Anthony sims dot com and you can sign 724 00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:30,960 Speaker 4: your name to the petition which calls On Brooklyn District 725 00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:35,600 Speaker 4: Attorney Eric gonzalez to join our motion to Vacate anthony's 726 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 4: wrongful conviction and to let him go home to his 727 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 4: family where he. Belongs there's also a link where you 728 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:46,120 Speaker 4: can email The District attorney's, Office so please Visit Free 729 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 4: Anthony sims dot com and we greatly appreciate all of your, help. 730 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 1: And i'm going to be signing and joining and you, 731 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 1: KNOW i do believe In Eric. Gonzalez, eric if you're 732 00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 1: listening right, now we're counting on. You that's ALL i can. 733 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 3: Say we believe That Da, gonzales once he understands this, 734 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:06,960 Speaker 3: case he's going to do the right. 735 00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: There amen to, that And i'll have the website linked 736 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:12,840 Speaker 1: in our episode. Bio, okay so now we come to 737 00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,239 Speaker 1: the part of the show called closing, arguments WHERE i 738 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,480 Speaker 1: offer my sincere thanks to you, Guys Jonathan holes And 739 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 1: Thomas hoffman for your passionate devotion to this case and 740 00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,640 Speaker 1: just for being good. Humans and of course you, Know, 741 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 1: anthony you're a hero to me and so many other, 742 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:35,560 Speaker 1: people just for your, spirit courage and your. Grace you, 743 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: know it's really an honor to have you here. Today 744 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,359 Speaker 1: and so here's how this. Works i'm going to turn 745 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,600 Speaker 1: my microphone, off kick back in my, chair close my, 746 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 1: eyes and each of you guys get the opportunity to 747 00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 1: share any final parting thoughts you. Have we call it closing. 748 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 1: Arguments we'll start With Jonathan hiles that you could pass 749 00:42:53,160 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 1: the mic To Thomas, hoffman and then we'll save the 750 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,359 Speaker 1: best for, last And, anthony you'll be with all due 751 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,200 Speaker 1: respect to, you, Guys, anthony he's going to be bad 752 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 1: and clean, up so to. Speak, so without further Ado 753 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 1: Jonathan hile's closing, Arguments. 754 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:07,279 Speaker 2: Thank, You. 755 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,960 Speaker 4: JASON i think it's important to look at the broader 756 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 4: picture and how this injustice. Occurred and it's because the 757 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 4: system did not value the life Of Anthony, simms and 758 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:22,120 Speaker 4: it also did not value the life Of lee Run. 759 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:26,239 Speaker 4: Chun and what we're fighting to do is to make 760 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,719 Speaker 4: sure that justice is served For anthony and also for the, 761 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,640 Speaker 4: victim for the truth to, emerge and every ounce of 762 00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,760 Speaker 4: help we can get to ensure that happens is deeply 763 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,600 Speaker 4: appreciated because the truth has been clear from the, start 764 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,440 Speaker 4: and that truth is That Julius graves was the perpetrator 765 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:50,479 Speaker 4: of this awful, crime Not Anthony. Simms and it's time 766 00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:53,320 Speaker 4: For anthony to go home and to be reunited with 767 00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:55,759 Speaker 4: his family so that he can be with them and 768 00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,759 Speaker 4: serve the community to which he has so much to. 769 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,120 Speaker 4: Contribute so thank you, Again, Jason. 770 00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:03,920 Speaker 3: Thank you again for doing. THIS i believe you have 771 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,799 Speaker 3: had one hundred and forty five podcasts of people who 772 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 3: were wontfully. CONVICTED i have listened to. Many while the facts, 773 00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,800 Speaker 3: vary the stories are all the. SAME a horrific crime is, 774 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:20,920 Speaker 3: committed drawing wide media and public. Attention perpetrators need to 775 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 3: be taken off the street and held to. Account, however 776 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 3: the concern of the police and the prosecutors is not 777 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:31,120 Speaker 3: to find the actual, perpetrator but to give the public 778 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:34,480 Speaker 3: the perception that the case was. Solved it did not 779 00:44:34,719 --> 00:44:37,719 Speaker 3: matter whether the right person was brought to justice as 780 00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,240 Speaker 3: long as the conviction was secured and the public fear. 781 00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:45,879 Speaker 3: Allayed As jonathan, said neither the victim nor the defendant's 782 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:49,920 Speaker 3: life is valued as long as the cases were so 783 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,319 Speaker 3: to the public is not, valued as the police did 784 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:58,560 Speaker 3: not care whether the actual perpetrator remained loose and posed 785 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:02,480 Speaker 3: the danger to the. Public also, common in order to 786 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 3: win these, cases evidence pointing away from the defendant's culpability 787 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 3: is ignored and not, investigated as such investigation could potentially 788 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:18,759 Speaker 3: exculpate the, accused and of Course rachel is an example of. 789 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:23,319 Speaker 3: That in this, case favorable evidence pointing away from defendant's 790 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:28,840 Speaker 3: guilt is disregarded, and in contravention of the prosecutor's constitutional, 791 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:34,280 Speaker 3: duty is hidden from the. Defender, meanwhile husband's, wives, mothers, fathers, 792 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:40,080 Speaker 3: sisters brothers and, sons and daughters are, destroyed all in 793 00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:44,600 Speaker 3: the interest of winning at all. Courts people ask me 794 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,520 Speaker 3: why DO i do. THIS i Now i'm giving it. 795 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:53,840 Speaker 3: Away am A holocaust. SURVIVOR i was born in nineteen forty. 796 00:45:53,960 --> 00:46:00,040 Speaker 3: Four basically my, family extensive family was wiped, out and 797 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:05,840 Speaker 3: That holocaust was caused by people remaining. Silent and that 798 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,279 Speaker 3: is WHY i call on our audience not to be. 799 00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:14,160 Speaker 3: Silent go to that website to undo this horrific. 800 00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:20,560 Speaker 5: Injustice, ANTHONY i want to say thank, You, Tom, Jonathan 801 00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,920 Speaker 5: jason And, connor AND i really thank you for. 802 00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,200 Speaker 2: This this has probably been one of the highlights of many. 803 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:32,279 Speaker 2: Years and now THAT i know That gonzalez is going 804 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,719 Speaker 2: to be looking at, THIS i want to talk directly to, 805 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,840 Speaker 2: you Mister, gonzales AND i want to ask that you 806 00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:44,919 Speaker 2: please review this. Evidence if don't just discard my case 807 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:49,120 Speaker 2: like the rest of, them view it with an open, 808 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:53,239 Speaker 2: mind understand what's would. Happened and Although i'll never be 809 00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:54,759 Speaker 2: able to get back over the year That i've been 810 00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,480 Speaker 2: in here, unjust you can make this right by doing 811 00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,640 Speaker 2: the right. Thing allow me to be the father and 812 00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:04,480 Speaker 2: out there society THAT i KNOW i need to be 813 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:06,640 Speaker 2: with my sons and let me dismiss some time with 814 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,920 Speaker 2: my mother and father who got. Old you, know my 815 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:11,399 Speaker 2: father had a. Show my mother's walking around with kine 816 00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:15,640 Speaker 2: as an about eleventh, Victim my grandmother who's eighty six years, 817 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,960 Speaker 2: old who lives for, me my, wife, family my family 818 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:24,360 Speaker 2: just in, general allow me to get some of my life, back. 819 00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:37,280 Speaker 1: Do the right. Thing thank you for listening To Wrongful 820 00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:41,600 Speaker 1: conviction With jason Flamm please support your local innocence projects 821 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:43,399 Speaker 1: and go to the link in our bio to see 822 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:45,960 Speaker 1: how you can. Help i'd like to thank our production 823 00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:50,200 Speaker 1: Team Connor, Hall Jeff clyburn And Kevin. Warnis the music 824 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,920 Speaker 1: on the, show as, always is by three TIME oscar 825 00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 1: nominated Composer Jay. Ralph be sure to follow us On 826 00:47:56,400 --> 00:48:00,480 Speaker 1: instagram At Wrongful conviction and On facebook at Wrong Conviction. 827 00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:04,000 Speaker 1: Podcast Wrongful conviction With Jason flahm is a production Of 828 00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,399 Speaker 1: lava For Good podcasts and association With Signal Company number 829 00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:07,600 Speaker 1: one