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Speaker 1: Hey, Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert.

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Speaker 2: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. We're

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Speaker 2: heading into the vault for an older episode of Stuff

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Speaker 2: to Blow Your Mind. This is part two of our

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Speaker 2: series on Tea. Part one ran last Saturday. This was

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Speaker 2: originally published February seventh, twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 1: Enjoy the Immortal Dan Chew abandoned eating jade elixirs, picking

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Speaker 1: tea instead. He drank and grew feathered wings. The world

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Speaker 1: is unaware of the mansion of imminent and hidden immortals.

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Speaker 1: People do not know of the palace of transmuting bone

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Speaker 1: into clouds. The lad of Cloudy Mountain blended it in

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Speaker 1: a gold cauldron. How hollow the fame of the Man

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Speaker 1: of Chew and his book of Tea. Late on a

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Speaker 1: frosty night, breaking cakes off fragrant tea brewed to overflowing

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Speaker 1: the pale yellow frog, I sip and am reborn. Bestowed

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Speaker 1: by the gentleman. This tea dispels my suffering, cleansing my

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Speaker 1: mind from worry and fear. Come morning, the emotions of

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Speaker 1: the fragrant brazier remain intoxicated. Still we walk across the

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Speaker 1: clouds reflected in Tiger Stream in high song I send

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Speaker 1: the gentleman off.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. That is from

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Speaker 1: a song of Drinking Tea on the departure of Zing

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Speaker 1: Wrong by jou Ran. This particular bit of Chinese poetry

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Speaker 1: I came across when I was reading a blog post

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Speaker 1: four ancient Chinese poems on tea in one Symphony. This

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Speaker 1: was on the website Tranquility Tuesdays, and I found this

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Speaker 1: one interesting because the author of this piece pointed out

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Speaker 1: that the piece that we opened the first episode off

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Speaker 1: with the seven bowls of Tea is just very well cited.

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Speaker 1: You'll find it referenced in just about any history of tea.

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Speaker 1: It frequently shows up on tea blogs and so forth.

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Speaker 1: The author here noted that, you know, given that it is,

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Speaker 1: you know, over sighted, that one should also include other

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Speaker 1: poems of note, and this is one such poem well so.

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Speaker 2: In the original poem, I'd say the major theme was

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Speaker 2: sort of the mounting levels of experience that come with

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Speaker 2: each successive cup of tea up until you hit the

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Speaker 2: danger zone, crossing the threshold from the sixth to the

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Speaker 2: dreaded seventh cup. In this case, what would you say

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Speaker 2: The main themes are I see here kind of a

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Speaker 2: community or a filial aspect to the tea talking about

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Speaker 2: you know, the lab bruise it, and then these two

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Speaker 2: drink it together. Sure exactly who these two people are

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Speaker 2: supposed to be?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, there's definitely more of an earth bound since here

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Speaker 1: I'm getting you know. It is, of course beautifully written

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Speaker 1: and has that kind of ethereal quality to it as well.

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Speaker 1: But the tea is not just taking you and transforming

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Speaker 1: you into an immortal and sending you to a mythical lands.

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Speaker 1: It's making you feel reborn, but also all of the

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Speaker 1: world as well, or at least that's my interpretation of it.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, Yeah, this is part two of our look

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Speaker 1: at Tea. We're already hearing from some folks regarding our

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Speaker 1: first episode, and in the second episode we're going to

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Speaker 1: continue the journey. So go back and listen to part

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Speaker 1: one if you haven't heard it yet, because in that

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Speaker 1: last episode we discussed the botanical facts concerning tea, as

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Speaker 1: well as some myths about its origin. But now that

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Speaker 1: we've established what tea is and where it's spring from,

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Speaker 1: and referenced some of the mythological ideas about tea and

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Speaker 1: read a couple of poems, this most recent was Tanged Honesty,

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Speaker 1: by the way, at this point, I think it's time

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Speaker 1: to discuss the history of tea in a little more detail,

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Speaker 1: especially as it concerns the ways that it can be

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Speaker 1: prepared and was prepared across time. So I think it

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Speaker 1: makes sense, first of all, to just look at some

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Speaker 1: of the steps that are frequently employed in preparing tea

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Speaker 1: after it's been harvest what happens between it growing on

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Speaker 1: the plant that we discussed in part one and somehow

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Speaker 1: making it into a cup or bowl of tea the beverage.

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Speaker 2: Right, and so one thing we talked about in the

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Speaker 2: previous episode is how different types of tea that you get,

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Speaker 2: say black tea versus green tea versus white or oolong,

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Speaker 2: they will usually be from the same plant or the

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Speaker 2: same of a couple of variants of this plant, Camellia senensus.

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Speaker 2: There's one tea plant, and so the differences you get

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Speaker 2: in the different teas are based on how it is

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Speaker 2: processed and prepared.

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Speaker 1: Right, right. So one of the books I've been looking

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Speaker 1: at here is Laura C. Martin's A History of Tea,

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Speaker 1: and I think the author does a fabulous job laying

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Speaker 1: out the history and also the different steps involved in

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Speaker 1: creating these beverages of tea. She points out that no

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Speaker 1: matter what sort of tea preparation you're talking about, certain

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Speaker 1: steps are common to many of them. Not all varieties

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Speaker 1: of tea involve all the steps, but it's worth going

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Speaker 1: over them all and then we can say, well, this

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Speaker 1: one doesn't involve this step, and this one does involve

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Speaker 1: this step.

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Speaker 2: Okay. So it starts, of course, with the gathering of

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Speaker 2: the leaves. Usually on tea farms, they will be collected

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Speaker 2: as flushes, these sort of top buds of a couple

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Speaker 2: leaves and a shoot coming off the top of the plant.

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Speaker 2: Those will be harvested and the rest of the plant

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Speaker 2: will be left there to produce new flushes in the future.

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Speaker 2: And so you gather a bunch of these flushes of leaves,

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Speaker 2: and then what do you do with them?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you could, I guess, just stick them in your mouth.

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Speaker 1: But here's the thing. If you do that in certainly

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Speaker 1: we have some of these tails of some of these

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Speaker 1: mythical origins of tea saying that's what happened, people stuck

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Speaker 1: it in their mouth, And you know that might well

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Speaker 1: be connected to some of the original ways that human

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Speaker 1: beings explore the natures of the tea plant leaves and

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Speaker 1: even gain some of the effects. But if you just

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Speaker 1: stick them in your mouth and start chewing, it's going

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Speaker 1: to be really bitter. So this is at this point

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Speaker 1: we have the first step of withering. So the fresh

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Speaker 1: green leaves and buds are dried out, either in a

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Speaker 1: heated room of some sort or they're left in the sun,

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Speaker 1: and this causes the starch in the leaves to begin

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Speaker 1: transforming into sugar and the moisture content drops by fifty

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Speaker 1: to eighty percent, and this allows the next possible step

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Speaker 1: to take place, which is the rolling of the tea

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Speaker 1: leaves and then be able to roll it without breaking

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Speaker 1: the leaves. This is something you might have to think

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Speaker 1: back to your childhood days of like playing with leaves

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Speaker 1: and sticks. But sometimes if a leaf is fresh and

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Speaker 1: you go to like roll it up, it's going to

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Speaker 1: it's going to break, all right. The rolling part here

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Speaker 1: is often done via machines today but was historically done

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Speaker 1: by hand, and the rolling without breaking here twists and

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Speaker 1: crushes the leaves in a way that releases SAP, exposes

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Speaker 1: it to oxygen, and stimulates fermentation. Additional rolling and or

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Speaker 1: sifting may take place here as well, so that's step two. Now.

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Speaker 2: One reason you might be rolling or sort of bruising

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Speaker 2: these leaves in some way essentially handling them roughly, is

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Speaker 2: in order to stimulate oxidation. Oxidation in general refers to

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Speaker 2: a broad class of chemical reactions that take place when

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Speaker 2: molecules are exposed to oxygen or another oxidizing agent, and

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Speaker 2: a core feature of an oxidation reaction is that the

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Speaker 2: molecules that are getting oxidized are losing electrons, but that

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Speaker 2: doesn't tell as much. It's usually it's some type of

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Speaker 2: chemical reaction. Now, it's interesting that the deliberate oxidation of

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Speaker 2: tea leaves is an important stage in their processing, especially

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Speaker 2: for producing darker teas, less so for greener teas, because

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Speaker 2: most often oxidation in foods is not something you want.

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Speaker 2: It's an undesirable outcome associated with spoilage and ransidity. So

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Speaker 2: some examples, and I guess these would be the closest analogies.

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Speaker 2: There are oxidation reactions of various types, like there's oxidation

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Speaker 2: of fats and so forth in oils. But for an

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Speaker 2: analogy in plants, think about when you cut an apple.

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Speaker 2: So you cut an apple in half and you leave

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Speaker 2: it out on the counter. What happens, Oh, it turns brown, right,

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Speaker 2: And this browning is not generally considered good. It's not

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Speaker 2: something that makes the apple harmful to eat, but most

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Speaker 2: of the time people don't find it very appetizing. It

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Speaker 2: changes the appearance and sometimes the flavor and texture as well,

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Speaker 2: and you know, tastes can vary, but most people would

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Speaker 2: not say that is a type of browning that they

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Speaker 2: seek out on purpose. And this is actually true of

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Speaker 2: many foods, especially fruits. So you can think of the

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Speaker 2: way avocados brown once they're cut or smashed and left

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Speaker 2: out on the counter, or potatoes or any number of

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Speaker 2: other plant based foods. The chemical reaction taking place here

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Speaker 2: is a form of oxidation called enzymatic browning and insomatic

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Speaker 2: browning is due to an enzyme called polyphenol oxidase. Fruits

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Speaker 2: and vegetables have compounds in them called phenolic compounds, and

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Speaker 2: when these compounds get exposed to both oxygen and to

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Speaker 2: that enzyme to polyphenol oxidase at the same time. They

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Speaker 2: react with the oxygen and go through a multi step

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Speaker 2: transformation process that ends with them turning into melanin. Melanin

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Speaker 2: is a natural brown pigment that you can find in

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Speaker 2: all forms of life. It's in plants, it's in fungi,

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Speaker 2: it's in animals including us. It's the brown pigment in

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Speaker 2: human hair and skin and inner irises. And so that

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Speaker 2: process naturally takes place once you cut an apple or

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Speaker 2: a banana or any of these foods. But how come

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Speaker 2: this chemical reaction turning phenolic compounds into melanin doesn't happen

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Speaker 2: once the when the apple is just like sitting there

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Speaker 2: on the counter uncut. How come it only happens once

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Speaker 2: you cut it. This is because in order for the

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Speaker 2: reaction to happen, we need three different substances to come

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Speaker 2: into contact with one another. So you need the phenolic

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Speaker 2: compounds the base molecules were transforming. You need the enzyme,

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Speaker 2: which in this case is polyphenol oxidase, and you need

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Speaker 2: the free oxygen in the air. And when all three

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Speaker 2: elements are present, there together, then you get this browning process.

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Speaker 2: So in plant tissue, the enzyme, the polyphenol oxidase, and

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Speaker 2: the phenolic compounds are usually kept separate from one another.

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Speaker 2: But damage to the plant, such as cutting it open

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Speaker 2: or bashing it and bruising it, will rupture cells and

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Speaker 2: cause these chemicals to blend together and unite, And then

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Speaker 2: you expose them to air and the oxidation happens. Now,

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Speaker 2: coming back to what I said earlier, ensomatic browning is

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Speaker 2: considered undesirable in lots of foods like you know you

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Speaker 2: do you, but most people would rather eat their apple slices, bananas, avocados,

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Speaker 2: and so forth before they sit out on the counter

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Speaker 2: for a few hours and turn brown. The browned versions

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Speaker 2: of these plants kind of look and taste degraded, not

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Speaker 2: exactly fresh. But in other plants, the browning process has

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Speaker 2: a desirable outcome. It is used on purpose to achieve

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Speaker 2: desirable improvements in appearance, texture, and flavor. One example would

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Speaker 2: be in certain dried fruits like raisins go through enzomatic

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Speaker 2: browning it deliberately in order to create new and interesting

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Speaker 2: flavors that people like. And another example might be in

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Speaker 2: seeds or leaves used to prove strongly flavored caffeinated beverages.

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Speaker 2: Oxidative browning is specifically sought out as part of the

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Speaker 2: preparation process for tea leaves. So you can think about

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Speaker 2: the process of say, rolling tea leaves around, like smashing

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Speaker 2: them or rolling them in a tumbler of some kind

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Speaker 2: in order to kind of like bruise and just rough

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Speaker 2: up the leaves to these get these different compounds coming together,

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Speaker 2: and expose them to oxygen to trigger the sprowning process. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I like to come back to the apple example, the

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Speaker 1: apple that's spilt, it falls out of the bowl and

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Speaker 1: falls off the counter and rolls across the floor. You know,

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Speaker 1: that's the one that gets all bruised up, and those

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Speaker 1: bruises are brown. That's the oxidation taking place.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. And again you know you don't usually want

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Speaker 2: that in an apple, but it turns out you do

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Speaker 2: it to a tea leaf, and oh it's producing all

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Speaker 2: these nice, interesting new aromas and flavors. It's making the

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Speaker 2: tea taste. I think a lot of tea producers would

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Speaker 2: say it makes it. It sort of takes away some

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Speaker 2: of the fresh, grassy flavor of green tea and introduces

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Speaker 2: these complex sweet flavors that taste more like a floral

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Speaker 2: aromas or like fruits.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it creates this whole additional dimension of flavor. Now,

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Speaker 1: this this stage of oxidation here, Martin stresses that it

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Speaker 1: is it's super important for determining the flavor destination of

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Speaker 1: the tea. It typically takes about three hours if it

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Speaker 1: is done. The leaves are left on trays and a cool,

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Speaker 1: damp place often and the oxidation causes them to turn

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Speaker 1: from green to kind of a copper color. They also

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Speaker 1: heat up during this phase, and you also and you

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Speaker 1: have to depending on exactly what you're doing with the

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Speaker 1: tea leaves, you may have to halt it as well,

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Speaker 1: because you don't want the oxidation to go too far,

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Speaker 1: because then you'll end up with what's described as kind

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Speaker 1: of a burnt taste. It's also really important to note

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Speaker 1: here that not all teas go through this phase, and

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Speaker 1: this should seem pretty obvious that black tea does go

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Speaker 1: through the oxidation phase and is therefore fully oxidized. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that is why it is this black or red color.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. And to and to pick up on and clarify

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Speaker 2: something you said a minute ago, heating, I think is

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Speaker 2: usually specifically used to stop the oxidation process. So if

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Speaker 2: you want a green tea that has a nice fresh,

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Speaker 2: sort of grassy vegetable flavor and keeps its green color,

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Speaker 2: those are usually going to be heated earlier to stop

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Speaker 2: the oxidation from progressing any further, whereas a black tea

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Speaker 2: you would let go through way more oxidation before heating

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Speaker 2: it in a little oven.

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Speaker 1: Now, just this is a cultivation note, but I ended

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Speaker 1: up throwing it into my notes here, so I'm going

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Speaker 1: to read it before I forget about it. Originally, tea

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Speaker 1: trees were, of course wild, and they would grow in

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Speaker 1: the wild, and they grew quite tall. The higher leaves

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Speaker 1: were obtained by simply cutting down the tree. This wouldn't

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Speaker 1: work long term, of course, and so with cultivation comes

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Speaker 1: the pruning and the non lethal harvesting of the leaves.

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Speaker 1: So I just found that interesting.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So that's why you get this process of like

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Speaker 2: taking the flushes off of the top instead of fully

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Speaker 2: culing the plant.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but back to the process. Okay, so we've had

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Speaker 1: we've had the first step here of withering, then rolling,

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Speaker 1: then oxidation, and then we get into the step of drying.

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Speaker 1: This is a quick drying to stop the oxidation at

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Speaker 1: desired levels, So we've kind of alluded to this already

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Speaker 1: as well as to remove enough moisture to prevent mold

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Speaker 1: from forming. But you also can't dry it out too

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Speaker 1: much or the tea could again taste burnt or on

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Speaker 1: the other end of the spectrum, it could lose its flavor.

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Speaker 1: All right, And then with the fourth step done, we're

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Speaker 1: under the fifth and this is grating and sorting. Basically,

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Speaker 1: what you're left with. You got to figure out what

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Speaker 1: you've got, and generally what you have is you have

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Speaker 1: whole leaves, you have broken leaves, you have the dinnings,

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Speaker 1: and you have dust. Whole is the best, that's the

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Speaker 1: highest quality, while and then broken leaves and then fannings

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Speaker 1: and dust that tends to go into cheaper things like

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Speaker 1: you know, tea bags and so forth. Again, not all

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Speaker 1: teas go through all of these phases. Black tea goes

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Speaker 1: through all five. Oolong tea is partially oxidized. Green teas

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Speaker 1: are dried after rolling to prevent oxidation at all. White

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Speaker 1: tea doesn't go through withering, fermentation or rolling. Now, this

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Speaker 1: doesn't cover anywhere near all the teas out there. In

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Speaker 1: the different types of teas, there are plenty of sub

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Speaker 1: varieties of each, and then there are blends as well,

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Speaker 1: Like one common example is English Breakfast Tea, which is

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Speaker 1: a blend of black teas.

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Speaker 2: Now there's a whole other class of complex chemical reactions

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Speaker 2: that teas undergo, separate from the baseline oxidation process we've

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Speaker 2: been talking about, which is fermentation, a whole other thing

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Speaker 2: where you are deliberately introducing microbial growth to further create

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Speaker 2: complex flavors and aromas.

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Speaker 1: That's right, And at this point I want to mention

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Speaker 1: the poorer teas. These are a special case. These are

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Speaker 1: again one of my favorite tea varieties, and actually our

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Speaker 1: producer jj I was chatting with him he also really

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Speaker 1: likes these, and I imagine we have a number of

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Speaker 1: listeners who are fond of these as well.

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Speaker 2: But these are fermented teas, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's so these teas are generally made from larger, older

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Speaker 1: leaves that I believe Martin described as almost being kind

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Speaker 1: of like hairy, you know, they're they're they're they're really

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Speaker 1: big old leaves. And also there's an enough moisture is

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Speaker 1: allowed to remain in them, so that they can continue

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Speaker 1: to ferment for years. Uh. This is this is the

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Speaker 1: only variety of tea that improves with age. The teas

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Speaker 1: stored away in bricks or cakes. Also, they're often various wrappings,

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Speaker 1: like sometimes it's like a like a bamboo type situation

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Speaker 1: or some sort of fabric wrapping and and ends up

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Speaker 1: with just a wide beret of flavors that are at

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Speaker 1: least in my experience, unlike any other teas I've tried,

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Speaker 1: h they often have the ones I've I keep coming

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Speaker 1: back to have kind of a often kind of like

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Speaker 1: a barnyard flavor, kind of straw or hay to them.

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Speaker 1: One of them that I really love is just especially dark.

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Speaker 1: It's like it's like a bowl or a cup of midnight.

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Speaker 1: And like I say, they're often you often you'll find

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Speaker 1: these in kind of like a loose leaf situation, but

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Speaker 1: you also find them in little pucks, little bricks, big

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Speaker 1: cakes that you have to chip away with a special

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Speaker 1: little ornate knife. I mean you could use a normal

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Speaker 1: butter knife or your car keys, I guess, but you know,

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Speaker 1: get into it. This is tea we're talking about. But

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Speaker 1: these have a fascinating history not only as just being

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Speaker 1: t bricks, but being used as money as well, with

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Speaker 1: the prime example being taking place in Tibet. As Wolfgang

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Speaker 1: Birch points out in the use of tea bricks as

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Speaker 1: currency among the Tibetans in the Tibet Journal, the Chinese

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Speaker 1: introduced tea to Tibet sometime prior to seven eighty c.

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Speaker 1: And while it was first used as more of a

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Speaker 1: pure bartering commodity, you know, I'll trade you a brick

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Speaker 1: of tea for this, that or the other, it eventually

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Speaker 1: took on a form that we might reasonably refer to

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Speaker 1: as currency, a regimented system of tea e bricks based

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Speaker 1: on the tea's quality and pureeness, and eventually imprinted with

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Speaker 1: trademarks and seals. So you might think of it almost like,

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Speaker 1: you know, you think of like a bar of gold

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Speaker 1: that has been imprinted with governmental information, Like here's the

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Speaker 1: seal of the of the governing body saying this is

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Speaker 1: an approved grade of gold, the amount of gold, et cetera.

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Speaker 1: It's the exact same thing with these t bricks. The

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Speaker 1: governing authority has said this is such and such tea

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Speaker 1: of such and such quality, and it is a certain

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Speaker 1: amount of it. It's usable as currency in this scenario.

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Speaker 2: That's interesting. It makes me think, I don't know this,

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Speaker 2: but I'm wondering. So in this case, would this have

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Speaker 2: been a fermented type of tea since it's in yet form.

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Speaker 2: That makes me think about how, you know, if you're

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Speaker 2: going to try to use a commonly consumed, say food

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Speaker 2: or drink item as a currency, it would be difficult

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Speaker 2: to use one that quickly degrades in quality, for like

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Speaker 2: its use value. So if it's something we're freshness really matters,

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Speaker 2: you would not want the use value of your currency

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Speaker 2: to degrade fast over the course of a few months.

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Speaker 2: But if it's like a fermented tea, you mentioned that

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Speaker 2: these get better with age rather than declining, so you

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Speaker 2: can at least hope your currency there keeps its value.

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Speaker 2: Does that make sense?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it would keep its value. Of anything, it

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00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,639
Speaker 1: would increase in value, though I don't remember reading anything

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Speaker 1: about how that would be decided upon, but I guess

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Speaker 1: it would be subject to like the going rate for

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Speaker 1: te's of a particular harvest and maturity level, you know,

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Speaker 1: like you all the information would be there on the seal.

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Speaker 2: This is a side note. I wonder how economies are

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Speaker 2: different when they have a currency that does have in

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Speaker 2: some cases a use value of its own, like you know,

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Speaker 2: if you're not going to use it for trade, you

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Speaker 2: would use it for something else, like you would literally

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Speaker 2: eat it or drink it, versus economies that just have

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Speaker 2: a currency that is purely useless on its own, it's

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Speaker 2: only for facilitating trade, like US dollars.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean for gold, I guess is not quite

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Speaker 1: an example of that, because even historically gold was still

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Speaker 1: desired as something that could be used for ornamentation, whereas

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Speaker 1: today it also has technology electronics uses as well.

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Speaker 2: I think.

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Speaker 1: The other really good example of this is the use

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Speaker 1: of chocolate in some Mesoamerican cultures, where that the chocolate

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Speaker 1: was such a highly regarded commodity and one that I

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Speaker 1: guess had kind of generalized sizes and measurements that it

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Speaker 1: could be used as currency as well. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Interesting question. Maybe we'll come back to that one day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So at this point that we might get more

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Speaker 1: into the timeline of tea with the primary interest in

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Speaker 1: sort of the evolution of the way that it is

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Speaker 1: prepared and ultimately consumed. As we explored in the last episode,

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Speaker 1: the origin of tea drinking is more mythology than historical fact.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the those things where if you try

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Speaker 1: and answer the question of, like, well, who invented tea?

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00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:09,600
Speaker 1: Who came up with this? It's basically lost to prehistory.

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Speaker 1: These are things where we have some interesting myths that

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Speaker 1: kind of sum up some of the general ideas and

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Speaker 1: ultimately some of the general realities of how human beings

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Speaker 1: experimented with and chronicled the nature of their botanical world.

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Speaker 1: But in general we can't answer it. There's no one person.

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Speaker 1: Though again, some of these accounts do have a sort

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Speaker 1: of an interesting shred of truth to them, like one

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Speaker 1: of the ones that, in addition to the ones we

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Speaker 1: discussed in the last episode, there's one that Michael d.

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Speaker 1: Co brings up in seventy Great Inventions of the Ancient

401
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 1: World in a chapter about I Believe Chocolate and Tea.

402
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 1: There's another myth where a past Chinese emperor was boiling

403
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Speaker 1: some water and some wild leaves just kind of blew

404
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,920
Speaker 1: into his water, boiling in the pot, thus creating tea.

405
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,720
Speaker 1: That of course sounds like pure myth and is not

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00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,879
Speaker 1: like a real story, but it reminds me of our

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Speaker 1: episode on the invention of the cauldron, and about how

408
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Speaker 1: like a cauldron or any kind of container even like

409
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Speaker 1: a skin of boiling water, Like what an essential laboratory

410
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:17,640
Speaker 1: that is for humans in ancient times? Figuring out what

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00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,520
Speaker 1: things are and what they can be used for. Now,

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Speaker 1: the question that may come up for some of you

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Speaker 1: might think, well, there's a great deal of Chinese literature

414
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Speaker 1: out there going back quiet a way. Can't we just

415
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,760
Speaker 1: see when people first started writing about tea? And I

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00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:33,680
Speaker 1: think this is a reasonable question to ask. But as

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00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:36,080
Speaker 1: Martin explains in the book, it's not quite that simple.

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Speaker 1: And part of the problem is that the Chinese character

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Speaker 1: associated with t was previously used again in literature, in

420
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 1: writing to refer to other shrubs and plants. For example,

421
00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: there are mentions of tea dating back to the fifth

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Speaker 1: century BCE, but it's thought that the character in question

423
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 1: here is just referring to south thistle, a plant sometimes

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Speaker 1: used in Chinese cuisine and native to Europe and Western Asia.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, so yeah, frustrating trying to understand the history.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, So we have to think about the fact

427
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Speaker 1: that anytime something like this comes along, like it's not

428
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Speaker 1: just oh, we have this new thing, let's get a

429
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:19,560
Speaker 1: new word for it, but that's in any language. That's

430
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Speaker 1: not necessarily how it works. I'm reminded of all the

431
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,439
Speaker 1: different apples that Europeans began to discover in the world

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00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:32,199
Speaker 1: and report back, Yeah, palm de tear. So again, we

433
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,439
Speaker 1: can't pinpoint a time when tea drinking began in China,

434
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 1: but we can likely say it was certainly a thing

435
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 1: by the Han dynasty two o six PC through twenty

436
00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 1: twenty CE. Granted that's a large period of time, but

437
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: by that period people were drinking tea. It most likely

438
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: began in Sichuan Province in southwestern China and spread gradually

439
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 1: to the rest of China, and would have reached northern

440
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,880
Speaker 1: China by the Tang dynasty that period six eighteen through

441
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,520
Speaker 1: nine o seven by the third century, though, according to Martin,

442
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 1: we do have mentions in the literature of tea that

443
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 1: we can more firmly connect to actual tea drinking, which

444
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 1: points out that Hatwo, a noted physician who may have

445
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 1: also developed one of the earliest forms of anesthesia, also

446
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 1: wrote about tea quote, to drink tea constantly makes one

447
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:22,440
Speaker 1: think better.

448
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,720
Speaker 2: That checks out, well, it depends on what you mean

449
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:32,160
Speaker 2: by constantly. Yeah, I'm not sure about the particulars of

450
00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 2: the translation. There By the way, the anesthesia that he

451
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 2: supposedly invented, I think they was reading that the name

452
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 2: literally transplates to cannabis boiling powder, but we still don't

453
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 2: know exactly what this supposed anesthesia contained. Also, a general

454
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 2: from the third century, lou Kuhn, wrote that he felt old,

455
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 2: depressed and needed some real tea when just the impression

456
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 2: he that he's out doing the military thing and he

457
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 2: just realizes, Man, I'm just I'm old, I'm sad, and

458
00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 2: I would just kill for an actual cup of tea

459
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 2: instead of I guess boiling various other things that we're

460
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 2: finding in in nature around us M. So you could

461
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,120
Speaker 2: you could have fake teas. There's like, if you can't

462
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 2: get real tea from Camellia sinensis, you might just try

463
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 2: boiling other plant matter.

464
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the history of tea is kind of

465
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: full of these examples, and not only the history of tea,

466
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 1: but I guess the history of of like pharmacology, and

467
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,480
Speaker 1: that's no pharmacology in general. I think we've touched a

468
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: little bit on this before talking about psychedelics, where you'll

469
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: have some historians think you'll have one particular custom of

470
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 1: using a particular herb or plant that is growing in

471
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: the natural environment. But what happens when people move? What

472
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 1: happens when there's a migration. Yes, in many cases you

473
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 1: can bring your plants with you. Sometimes those plants don't

474
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: survive though, Sometimes they can't be brought anyway, or you

475
00:26:58,119 --> 00:26:59,880
Speaker 1: just that the people that bring them are not able

476
00:26:59,920 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: to keep those plants going in these new places they

477
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,679
Speaker 1: move to. And in those cases you might try to

478
00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 1: find some sort of reasonable facsimile, like what's something else

479
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 1: that does something that changes me a little bit when

480
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: I boil it in water and drink it. So we

481
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: may come back to some of that in a pit.

482
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,160
Speaker 1: And then Martin also points that by let's say, around

483
00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: three point fifty CE, there's a more detailed description of

484
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 1: the tea plant that we seem pretty sure is an

485
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,639
Speaker 1: actual description of tea. And this is provided by go

486
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 1: Poo again around three fifty C.

487
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 2: Now, I guess one thing I wonder is it's one

488
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 2: thing to talk about. Okay, we're taking leaves of this

489
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:53,680
Speaker 2: specific plant and boiling them to make tea, But it's

490
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:56,199
Speaker 2: another thing to think about, like all of the complex

491
00:27:56,400 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 2: preparation process steps and the different varieties of tea pretty today.

492
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 2: Do you have any idea when that sort of thing

493
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 2: started to come online, or at least when we have

494
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 2: the earliest evidence of that.

495
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is this is interesting because one thing that

496
00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: Martin points out is that early on tea was probably

497
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: not good. It would have been nothing like what we're

498
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: having today. It would have been we could almost think

499
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 1: of it more as kind of this herbal soup, and

500
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: you'd have various things added to it in an attempt

501
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: to improve the flavor profile. And you might be thinking, oh,

502
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: like delightful flowers and stuff. No, things like onions might

503
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: be added. It is just a way to improve the flavor.

504
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 1: And I believe Martin, I believe mentioned that this probably

505
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: also didn't work. It was just so strong a flavor

506
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: you couldn't really improve on it all that much. But

507
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: you drank it because you know it was there were

508
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: already some healthful associations with it, and you know, maybe

509
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: it wasn't making it was sick because it was boiled,

510
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: et cetera. But during the time of the Northern Way

511
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 1: Dynasty three eighty six through five thirty five, apparently the

512
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: tea processing had improved, at least to what we might

513
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: think of as a basic level. There are mentions of

514
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: cakes made of tea leaves that have been roasted. It

515
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,720
Speaker 1: was probably still a lot cruder compared to things that

516
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: were gonna come, or certainly cruder than things that you

517
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: would think of today as desirable teas. But the journey

518
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: toward more complex flavors was underway, and I'm assuming you

519
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 1: were maybe not having to put onions in your tea

520
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 1: anymore now. During the fifth century CE, there's also examples

521
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: of tea tributes being made to the imperial court and

522
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: to the emperor himself, and also the emperor was said

523
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: to have his own tea reserves as well, like these

524
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 1: were places where just the emperor's tea was grown. So

525
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:53,840
Speaker 1: already it was presumably flavors are improving, and also the

526
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: ruling class, the elites of society are really getting attached

527
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: to the idea of tea. But then the Tang dynasty

528
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: six eighteen through nine oh seven, this is the period

529
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: in which we see Chinese tea in the form of

530
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: baked bricks of green tea, which are ideal for travel,

531
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: spreading to new parts of the Empire and beyond. Martin

532
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 1: also writes that this widespread technique also greatly improved the flavor.

533
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 1: The popularity of tea spread so much during this time

534
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 1: that it was no longer just a drink of the

535
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: elite of the emperor and his court. It was a

536
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: drink for everybody, even peasants by this point were we're

537
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: getting in on tea culture. That doesn't mean everybody would

538
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: have access to the same tea. Of course, with the

539
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: type of tea you drank would be intrinsically linked to

540
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 1: your place in society, as would the various paraphernalia that

541
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 1: were used in tea preparation and tea consumption, but it

542
00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: was essentially something that could be found throughout society. Also,

543
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,400
Speaker 1: this would again have been exclusively green tea, as red

544
00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: black tea would not be developed for centuries to come.

545
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: And this is the time of an individual by the

546
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 1: name of lou U. This would have been in the

547
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 1: eighth century. He was known as the Immortal of T

548
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: the Sage of T, and he was author of the

549
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: Classic of.

550
00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 2: T The Classic of T. I see a similarity in

551
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: the English naming convention of some of these great old

552
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 2: Chinese texts similar to like the Classic of Mountains and

553
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:29,080
Speaker 2: Seas exactly, Yes, I forget exactly what that is translated from, though,

554
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 2: Like what are all the range of meanings in the original?

555
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, but certainly this is a common translation of

556
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 1: some of these important books. I would think you could.

557
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 1: You might roughly think of it the same way that

558
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,400
Speaker 1: important books might in the Western traditions might be preferred

559
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: to as like the book of such and such or

560
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: a chronicle of such and such.

561
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

562
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: Now, this is an interesting figure Louu though, because there

563
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,760
Speaker 1: are a number of legends about him as well. You know,

564
00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: he's definitely a historic individual and author. It seems that

565
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: folks agree on that. But there are all these additional stories,

566
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 1: such as that he was abandoned and subsequently adopted by

567
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: Buddhist monks. Also, there's this other story that he and

568
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: I think these all kind of work together, or at

569
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: least were eventually stitched together into one narrative that he

570
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: was then trained. He then trained to be a clown

571
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: in the opera, and this was his lifelong ambition, but

572
00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: then he ended up becoming a scholar instead. He started

573
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 1: spending a lot of time in tea houses, which was

574
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 1: a popular hangout at the time. And this reminds me

575
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: a bit of accounts of tea and coffee houses in

576
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: later European history as a kind of like cultural incubator.

577
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, a place where like the poet resides.

578
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And so he has this supposed trajectory that's

579
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: pretty interesting, Like he starts off as as an abandoned child,

580
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: becomes a monk, then becomes a clown, then becomes a scholar,

581
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 1: and then essentially becomes the immortal of tea.

582
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,680
Speaker 2: It implies tea being kind of like the highest level achievable.

583
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it does. And I think that matches up with

584
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: the way that he was received and regarded. But it

585
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: goes beyond like you might think, Okay, he wrote this

586
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: scholarly work about tea, and I bet the scholarly class

587
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 1: really loved it. But as Martin points out, this work

588
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 1: had a huge impact on tea and society, as it

589
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: gave agriculturists and farmers the first real written account of

590
00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: how to cultivate and process tea. Everything before the Classic

591
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:33,080
Speaker 1: of Tea was just orally transmitted or was unknown to

592
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 1: individuals who might want to partake of it and cultivate

593
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: their own tea. His work made tea cultivation accessible, and

594
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: it included everything that was known at the time about tea,

595
00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: where you could grow it, how to grow it, how

596
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 1: to harvest it and prepare it, the culture of drinking it,

597
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: the twenty four implements required to prepare tea in the home,

598
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: that sort of thing.

599
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 2: Whoa, that's a lot of implements, Yeah, and a lot

600
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: of just sort of advice on what is proper.

601
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: Like. For instance, I was reading in Martin that he

602
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 1: was a big fan of using blue glazed cups to

603
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:13,759
Speaker 1: enhance the green color of the tea, while he thought

604
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 1: that white cups or bowls would give it a distasteful

605
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: pink color.

606
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 2: This is interesting in part because it reminds me of

607
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 2: the passages in Plenty of the Elder where he's like, Hey,

608
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,399
Speaker 2: if you're gonna boil like some sweet sapa to drink,

609
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 2: you better do it in a lead pot instead of

610
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 2: a copper one, because the copper makes it bitter, the

611
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: lead makes it sweet. I assume he's not talking about

612
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,920
Speaker 2: actual changes in flavor here, but truly just appearance. But

613
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 2: this is also quite observant because I think, as like

614
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,640
Speaker 2: chefs and people who work in restaurants will tell you

615
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 2: the appearance and color of your plates really does affect

616
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 2: how people perceive the food.

617
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely. And then of course there's so much

618
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: ritual on top of all of this, you know. Martin

619
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: stresses that while some of this might seem just you know,

620
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 1: over the top and perhaps too fancy, we have to

621
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 1: remind ourselves that this is a world where individuals like

622
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 1: lou U are striving for universal perfection. So that's and

623
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: we have to think about it too in light of Confucianism, Taoism,

624
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: and Buddhism as well, which are all important energies in

625
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 1: the world surrounding this growing tea culture. Now, the popularity

626
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 1: of the Classic of Teas not only spread the word

627
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 1: of tea, it also further enhanced its popularity and pushed

628
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: both greater tea trade and greater advancements in how it

629
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: was cultivated and prepared. Tea also spread throughout China during

630
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: this time because it had become just so embraced by

631
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 1: Buddhist practice and culture. But it's also meant that when

632
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: Buddhism fell out of favor during the decline of the

633
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 1: Tang dynasty, tea culture did as well. And this would

634
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: this was a trend that would recur when foreign invaders

635
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: would control parts of China, Tea culture would suffer in

636
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 1: that area.

637
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 2: Interesting, does that mean it was replaced by something or

638
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 2: I wonder what caused that correlation.

639
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: It's based on what I was reading, and there may

640
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: be more nuanced to this, and more and more to this,

641
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: but it would just be a situation where it was

642
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: linked with the with the ruling party. You know, it's

643
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: kind of like a top down cultural practice and without

644
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:36,759
Speaker 1: without Tea culture emanating from sort of a you know,

645
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: in radiating waves from the ruling body, it kind of

646
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: falls out of favor and you have people maybe following,

647
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: and you're going to have cultural trans transmission taking place

648
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:47,760
Speaker 1: there too. Of course, because you also see in the

649
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 1: in the histories where you know, some some groups, say

650
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 1: the Mongols becomes the ruling body in a part of China,

651
00:36:55,680 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 1: they also become more Chinese as they rule, So you know,

652
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 1: the cultural transmission goes both ways. But it seems like

653
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: you would have these situations where a foreign power would

654
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: take control for a while and yet just Tea popularity

655
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:17,760
Speaker 1: would wane, but then when inevitably Chinese rule was restored

656
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: to these areas you would see the reverse and one

657
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: of the examples of this would be nine sixty. See

658
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 1: the rule of the Song dynasty brought tea back to

659
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: the forefront. Its trade during this period became so important

660
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: that the Imperial court found that they could just restrict

661
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:38,399
Speaker 1: or manipulate the flow of tea to outlying regions if

662
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 1: deemed necessary. So it would be a way to control

663
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: and manipulate other groups, such as determining how much tea

664
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: goes to, say, to bat or to the Mongols, or

665
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: to the Turks and others. Almost kind of like a

666
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:55,239
Speaker 1: spice trade of Dune sort of scenario, you know. And

667
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 1: certainly that's the sort of thing that Frank Herbert was

668
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 1: thinking of when he was right. Maybe not tea specifically,

669
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 1: but obviously this control of a desired or vital resource

670
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 1: by one particular body.

671
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:09,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

672
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: It's also during this time period, Martin rights, that we

673
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 1: enter the second school or phase of tea. So this

674
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,879
Speaker 1: first phase had been the brick era. Again, we're talking

675
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,320
Speaker 1: about those bricks of tea, you know, how it's dried

676
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: and then often stored, et cetera. But then we're entering

677
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: at this point the whipped school and It's called the

678
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: whipped school due to the creation and popularity of dried

679
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: and powdered green tea that was then whipped in boiling

680
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,799
Speaker 1: water till it's foamy. This is what we typically call

681
00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: macha tea today, and it was a huge hit during

682
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: this time period. Of course, has remained whip us.

683
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 2: Oh that's interesting, Okay, I guess I do associate macha

684
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,760
Speaker 2: tea with looking kind of foamy, but I didn't realize

685
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 2: why that was. So it's like typically more of a

686
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: powder form that is whipped into the water vigorously.

687
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, like generally you'll have and we'll probably come

688
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: back around them to macha here in a bit and

689
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,240
Speaker 1: talk about it in especially in relation to Japanese tea culture.

690
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:10,720
Speaker 1: But yeah, even if you get it today, you're probably

691
00:39:10,719 --> 00:39:14,680
Speaker 1: gonna get some sort of one variety or another of macha,

692
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: perhaps like a ceremonial grade tea. You're gonna put that

693
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 1: in your in your bowl or cup, and once you

694
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 1: have the hot water, you're gonna you're gonna want to

695
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: whip it up. There's gonna be a special implement to

696
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: do that, and this of course can also be quite exceptional.

697
00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,440
Speaker 2: Okay, So we go from brick to the whipped powder,

698
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:34,720
Speaker 2: and then does it does it change after that, because

699
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 2: that still doesn't resemble the most of the tea preparation

700
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 2: I can think of today, which is based on steeping.

701
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,440
Speaker 1: Right right, Well, that is gonna eventually be the third school,

702
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 1: the school of steeping, as in like loose leaf tea especially,

703
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: and we are still in this school today, Martin Wright.

704
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: So of course all three of these are still used.

705
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if there's gonna be a fourth phase

706
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:55,359
Speaker 1: of tea.

707
00:39:55,360 --> 00:40:07,359
Speaker 2: I don't know the laser school of tea.

708
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,320
Speaker 1: All right, there's more to the history of tea, and

709
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: we'll keep going with the history of tea in a

710
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: future episode here, but I thought it might be fun

711
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,720
Speaker 1: at this point to discuss tea and health.

712
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 2: Now.

713
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier how Martin pointed out that by the

714
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,720
Speaker 1: fourth century CE, T consumption was probably part of daily

715
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 1: life for many in China, but it wasn't good. You

716
00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,560
Speaker 1: were having to mask it with things like you know,

717
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: sometimes things like citrus or ginger, which doesn't sound that bad,

718
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 1: but other times you're putting salt and onions in it,

719
00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: all to try and make it more palpable. But you

720
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,239
Speaker 1: were consuming it because it had perceived health benefits. You

721
00:40:43,280 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: also might just eat your tea leaves straight like a

722
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,840
Speaker 1: vegetable in this time. Still, though again it would have

723
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: been bitter. It would not have been a pleasant experience.

724
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 1: You Also, I was surprised by this. You also might

725
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: have sniffed it like snuff, So that would be a

726
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 1: sort of a you know, an approach to powdered tea

727
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 1: that I didn't think about. Also, not what I'm saying

728
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: anyone needs to try, but it was one method that

729
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,040
Speaker 1: was used, as was sometimes using it externally, like you know,

730
00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: applying it just to the skin, or perhaps to some

731
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 1: sort of skin irritation like a poultice. Yeah, so it

732
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:21,440
Speaker 1: was widely used during this time. Again not because it

733
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 1: was necessarily pleasant to have. But first of all, it

734
00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: was associated with wakefulness and digestion, which I think these

735
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 1: are both agreed upon effects of caffeine. If you've had caffeine,

736
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,720
Speaker 1: or explored caffeine, or even been around people that use caffeine,

737
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: you probably know that this is the case. Like caffeine

738
00:41:40,120 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 1: can can wake you up, it can make you more alert,

739
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: it can also speed up digestion. And yeah, and that's

740
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: why if you go to a coffee house or a

741
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 1: tea house these days, there may be a weight at

742
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 1: the bathroom, and there may be a lot of people

743
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 1: with you know, a lot of crackling energy.

744
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 2: But it's worth it because, as Lou Tong said, it

745
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,319
Speaker 2: searches the dry rivulets of the soul, helps you find

746
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 2: the stories of five thousand scrolls. Yeah, I'd say that

747
00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: still checks out caffeine effects on cognition.

748
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: At the same time, though it was also used during

749
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: this time as of treatment for everything from poor eyesight

750
00:42:10,800 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: to skin and organ issues. It was also considered a

751
00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 1: strong preventative medicine and something that positively impacted one's chi.

752
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: So we again, so we're seeing like the full spectrum

753
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 1: here of possible and perceived uses for tea that benefited

754
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 1: your current ailments, prevented other ailments, and maybe even affected

755
00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:37,800
Speaker 1: sort of spiritual energy concepts regarding the functionality of the

756
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: human body.

757
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 2: Yes, now, because we've raised the question in the historical

758
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 2: context here of beliefs about t and its positive impacts

759
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 2: on health, I think it's worth looking at what's some

760
00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 2: of the modern major nutrition science findings on the health

761
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:57,640
Speaker 2: effects of tr But strong caveat I'm not going to

762
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 2: go deep on this because I just feel personally, like,

763
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,279
Speaker 2: you know, we look at a lot of different domains

764
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 2: of science, and I feel like there is no quicker

765
00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,440
Speaker 2: way to lose your mind than looking for scientific papers

766
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 2: on a question of is this common food or drink

767
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 2: item good or bad for your health? Coffee, tea, chocolate, wine,

768
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 2: a million other things. It always seems like there are

769
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 2: just reams of conflicting results, some of which sound prima

770
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 2: faci absurd and probably are, you know, like a study

771
00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:31,040
Speaker 2: show wine cures heart disease or something like that. And

772
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,840
Speaker 2: I detect the presence of persistent methodological problems with attempts

773
00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 2: to look at this kind of thing specifically, like does

774
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 2: a common food or drink item that people consume for

775
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 2: pleasure or for other reasons have you know, X broad

776
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 2: health effect. But with that caveat, I'm going to cite

777
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 2: the findings of a major meta analysis that I looked

778
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 2: at from twenty nineteen. So this was by Mengshi Yi

779
00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,760
Speaker 2: called Tea Consumption and Health Outcome Umbrella Review of Meta

780
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 2: Analysis of Observational Studies in Humans. This was published in

781
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:09,280
Speaker 2: the journal Molecular Nutrition and Food Research and twenty nineteen.

782
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 2: So this study is an umbrella review, also known as

783
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 2: a review of reviews, which kind of gives you an

784
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 2: idea how much research there is on the topic, so

785
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 2: to picture where this rests in the research hierarchy. Of course,

786
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:26,240
Speaker 2: you can have individual studies or experiments on the effect

787
00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 2: of tea on some particular outcome, and then you can

788
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:31,920
Speaker 2: have a paper a level above that, which is a

789
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,480
Speaker 2: review or a meta analysis, which compares and analyzes and

790
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 2: usually averages the results of many different individual studies of

791
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,799
Speaker 2: a bunch. You know, it collects everything it can find

792
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,439
Speaker 2: in the literature and says, when you compare all these

793
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 2: what results poke out. And then if you have enough

794
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 2: of those reviews within a subject area, you can have

795
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:53,640
Speaker 2: an umbrella review, which is a review of reviews. And

796
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,000
Speaker 2: sometimes umbrella reviews are going to have like a broader question. So,

797
00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 2: for example, you can have a meta analysis of studies

798
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 2: on the relationship between T and cardiovascular disease, and another

799
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 2: one comparing studies on TA and various cancers, and then

800
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 2: you could maybe have an umbrella review looking at all

801
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 2: those meta analyzes to understand the relationship between T and

802
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 2: health outcomes. More generally, Okay, so sorry about all that preamble.

803
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 2: But anyway, what did this umbrella review find in the

804
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:24,200
Speaker 2: existing literature as of twenty nineteen. Well, it looked at

805
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 2: ninety six meta analyzes addressing forty different health outcomes and

806
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 2: it concluded that overall, studies showed greater evidence for health

807
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 2: benefits than for harm to health from T consumption. So

808
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 2: they say, quote dose response analysis of T consumption indicates

809
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 2: reduced risks of total mortality, cardiac death, coronary artery disease, stroke,

810
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 2: and type two diabetes melitis with increment of two to

811
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 2: three cups per day. Beneficial associations are also found for

812
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:59,200
Speaker 2: several cancers, skeletal, cognitive, and maternal outcomes. Harmful associations are

813
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 2: found for a soft geal cancer and gastric cancer when

814
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 2: the temperature of intake is more than fifty five to

815
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 2: sixty degrees celsius. So this leads them to the conclusion

816
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 2: that except for the upper digestive cancer risk that may

817
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 2: be associated with drinking very hot tea and again greater

818
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 2: than fifty five to sixty degrees c is about one

819
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 2: thirty one to one forty degrees fahrenheit. Unless you're drinking

820
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 2: tea that hot or hotter, normal levels of tea consumption,

821
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 2: such as two to three cups per day, appear safe,

822
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 2: and those levels of tea intake are even associated with

823
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 2: a broad range of apparently positive health effects, the ones

824
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 2: I mentioned in a minute ago. However, this is a

825
00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 2: very important thing to stress. They acknowledge the difficulty in

826
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 2: disentangling regular dietary TA consumption from possible confounding variables, and

827
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 2: so they argue that to really conclude that the observed

828
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,920
Speaker 2: associations are causal, So you know, for example, finding that

829
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,000
Speaker 2: t consumption two to three cups per day might be

830
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 2: associated with like reduced risk of cardiac death or something

831
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 2: like that. In order to really be sure that the

832
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 2: tea is the cause of that and not just some

833
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:15,320
Speaker 2: random association, you would need to do randomized controlled trials.

834
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 2: And this is often true. I think when you're looking

835
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 2: at connections between like common food or drink items and

836
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 2: health outcomes, you might find that any random thing. People

837
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 2: who eat kelp on a regular basis have a lower

838
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 2: risk of pancreatic cancer, but that doesn't actually show that

839
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,040
Speaker 2: it's the kelp that makes the difference. It could be

840
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 2: that people who have a lower risk of that cancer. Also,

841
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 2: for some reason, just happen to eat more kelp, And

842
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 2: the best way to establish the kelp is the cause

843
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 2: would again be to do a randomized controlled trial, which

844
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 2: is the gold standard use for testing new drugs and

845
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 2: so forth, but not always used to examine the health

846
00:47:52,280 --> 00:47:56,480
Speaker 2: effects of common food and drink items such as coffee, chocolate, tea,

847
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 2: all these things that you see a million conflicting study

848
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,760
Speaker 2: results on tea helps this health effect, and then another

849
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 2: study says on maybe it doesn't. So in the end,

850
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 2: I think it's hard to get very solid results on

851
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:11,879
Speaker 2: these kind of food and drink items. But at least

852
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 2: the existing research today makes it look like broadly tea

853
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:17,800
Speaker 2: is pretty safe to drink as long as you're drinking

854
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 2: it within moderation and not super hot, and may in

855
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,200
Speaker 2: fact have some positive health benefits associated with it, but

856
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 2: don't bank on those too much.

857
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 1: Well, these are all great points, Like depending on the study,

858
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 1: you might be it might be a situation where it's

859
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 1: the tea cakes that are causing all of the positive

860
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 1: health effects.

861
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it may not be causal about drinking the

862
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 2: tea at all. Maybe it's that people who have lower

863
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 2: risk of whatever are also just for some reason cultural

864
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,399
Speaker 2: or otherwise more likely to drink tea. Or it could

865
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,800
Speaker 2: be that the act of sitting down and drinking something

866
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 2: warm from a cup. I mean, I don't know what

867
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 2: all they compared it to, what controls they used on

868
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 2: all these different experiments, because there have been a lot

869
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 2: of them. But that's where the research show looks like

870
00:48:56,840 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 2: it lands today. But I did want to note that

871
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 2: positive health effects of tea could exist and might also

872
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 2: be construed, not in an absolute sense, but in the

873
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 2: sense of comparing tea to alternatives, to other things you

874
00:49:12,040 --> 00:49:13,640
Speaker 2: could consume instead of tea.

875
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:16,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, And in this I want to turn to a

876
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: quote from the herbal classic that I think we reference

877
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 1: this work in the last episode. It is attributed to

878
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:29,920
Speaker 1: Shinnong again, the divine farmer with the crystal stomach that

879
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,839
Speaker 1: is in some of the myths, is attributed as discovering tea,

880
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: and the quote resis follows in translation, quote Tea is

881
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:42,320
Speaker 1: better than wine, for it leadeth not to intoxication, neither

882
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,839
Speaker 1: does it cause a man to say foolish things and

883
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:48,919
Speaker 1: repent thereof in his sober moments. It is better than water,

884
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 1: for it does not carry disease. Neither does it act

885
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: like poison as water does when it contains foul and

886
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: rotten matter.

887
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 2: Hey, that's the couple of I would say, quite solid observations.

888
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:03,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I think it's fair to agree that

889
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: the over indulgence of tea is less of a public

890
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 1: or health or safety issue compared to the consumption of alcohol.

891
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:11,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

892
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. And then, as Martin points out in her book,

893
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 1: this last bit is also certainly true. Tea prepared with

894
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 1: boiling water would rid the water of many of the

895
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 1: inherent pathogens. So if you're just looking at the difference

896
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 1: between having a hot cup of tea and drinking or

897
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 1: rain water or something or any kind of water that

898
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 1: might be on hand for pure drinking purposes, the tea

899
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 1: is a healthier choice historically speaking, that seems quite true

900
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: as long as people are, of course not consuming that

901
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 1: seventh cup of tea and you know, rapturing themselves to

902
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:48,400
Speaker 1: the Holy Mountain.

903
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, you don't want to accidentally fly to pung

904
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:53,320
Speaker 2: Lie before you get to work in the morning.

905
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 1: Right. And yet, to your point, just the idea of

906
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 1: your drinking tea, then what are you not drinking? You're

907
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: not drinking alcohol. You're not drinking wine, you're not drinking

908
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 1: water that may, given the circumstances, might not be the

909
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:12,839
Speaker 1: purest or the healthiest choice at that time. Yeah, this

910
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 1: is all fascinating.

911
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 2: I think that's going to do it for part two, right, Yeah.

912
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 1: I think this is all we have time for in

913
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:20,479
Speaker 1: this episode, but we'll come back for a part three.

914
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 1: We're gonna look a little more at the history and

915
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:26,040
Speaker 1: evolution of tea and possibly get into some other tea

916
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 1: cultures as well, and we'll see what else comes up.

917
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 1: In the meantime. We'd love to hear from everyone out there,

918
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 1: because I know we have a lot of tea drinkers

919
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:35,360
Speaker 1: out there, tea drinkers from different parts of the world,

920
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:41,360
Speaker 1: different tastes, different experiences. We'd love to hear everything you

921
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 1: have to say about the matter, So write in let

922
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:47,040
Speaker 1: us know. I'd love to hear from you. A reminder

923
00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 1: that core episodes of Just to Blow Your Mind published

924
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Monday is listener Mail. Wednesday is

925
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 1: a short form artifact or monster fact, and on Fridays

926
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 1: we set aside most serious concerns to talk about a

927
00:51:57,239 --> 00:51:59,600
Speaker 1: weird film on Weird House Cinema.

928
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:02,480
Speaker 2: Huge thanks to our our audio producer, JJ Posway. If

929
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 2: you would like to get in touch with us with

930
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 2: feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest a

931
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 2: topic for the future, or just to say hello, you

932
00:52:08,719 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 2: can email us at contact at stuff to Blow your

933
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 2: Mind dot com.

934
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,560
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935
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:27,480
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936
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:43,560
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