WEBVTT - Ep. 92: Tecumseh - Tecumseh’s Death (Part 3) 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:08.640 Yeah, all the stuff written about him that is pure hogwash. 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:12.320 These are nineteenth century stuff that gets associated with him 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:14.720 sort of to build him up, and he doesn't need it. 0:00:14.840 --> 0:00:18.799 He stands on his own. It's a remarkable man. We're 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:21.799 on our third and final episode in our series on 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:25.360 the Shawnee Leader two COMPSA. He's been called the greatest 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:29.720 Native leader in American history, but we've found ourselves backed 0:00:29.800 --> 0:00:34.360 against the bedrock of inevitability. On this side of mortality, 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:38.559 all great men and their stories must come to an end. 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:43.480 This episode is titled two Comes his Death. We'll talk 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:48.159 about that fateful day in October eighteen thirteen, but perhaps 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:51.479 more relevant to us today, will explore the ways in 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:55.320 which we remember history and sometimes play tricks with our 0:00:55.360 --> 0:01:00.640 conscience to console an uncomfortable past. Was the image of 0:01:00.680 --> 0:01:04.640 the Shawnee reflected back to America really him at all? 0:01:05.440 --> 0:01:09.240 And will contrast the way different cultures view their great men. 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:13.880 Not everybody does it the same. And lastly, on the 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:19.000 wild Meter of Interest, which is penned in The Red Shawnee, 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:22.600 Chief Ben Barnes tells us the vision and mission of 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:26.480 the modern day Shawnee Nation. I really doubt that you're 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:29.800 gonna want to miss this one. Really giving American Indians 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:32.880 their place in history, American history. You've got to argue 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:34.960 that they were two of the most influential siblings in 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:47.880 American history period. Who can you compare them to? My 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:51.560 name is Clay Nukelem and this is the Bear Grease Podcast, 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:56.120 where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:59.880 and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the story of 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:04.640 Americans who lived their lives close to the land. Presented 0:02:04.760 --> 0:02:09.720 by f HF Gear American Maid, purpose built hunting and 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:13.240 fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:28.320 places we explore. Thank you very much. Listen up fund evening. 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:34.720 This song is called the Last Days of Tecumsa by 0:02:34.760 --> 0:03:02.600 American songwriter Grant Lee Buffalo Yeah, j Yeah, and the 0:03:02.720 --> 0:03:07.040 song's lyrics are mysterious and short. In one minute and 0:03:07.240 --> 0:03:11.120 six seconds, it talks about spacemen and airplanes, but at 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:14.399 the heart of the song, he says he couldn't believe 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:18.600 all that he knew would fade. The song ends, and 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:21.960 you wish it was longer. In many ways, it's like 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:25.519 two comes his life like a dagger piercing your soul. 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.760 Two comes. His plight for the traditional Indian way of 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:31.880 life and lands leaves me gasping for a breath of 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:35.920 justice or a hint of fairness, and a scenario stacked 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:41.120 with an almost undeniable inevitability. It's hard to reconcile. It 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:43.680 does not escape me that if t Comes his vision 0:03:43.760 --> 0:03:48.120 had prevailed, these United States, which I've become fond of, 0:03:48.440 --> 0:03:51.600 would look much different than they do today, which leaves 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:54.960 me searching deep to evaluate if I really wanted that 0:03:55.080 --> 0:03:57.600 justice or does it just make me feel good to 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:00.960 look back and cast well wishes on this warrior's vision. 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:05.760 We're gonna dive right into that faithful day in eighteen 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:09.200 thirteen when two comes to his men and a meager 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:13.960 British force found themselves pushed into Ontario, Canada, after fighting 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:16.920 near Detroit, Michigan. They're in the middle of what would 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:19.880 become known as the War of eighteen twelve, a fight 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:23.520 between Great Britain and the young United States. The war 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:27.560 started because of British interference with US trade routes, but 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:32.360 America wanted to own Indian lands and Canada, and both 0:04:32.400 --> 0:04:36.080 sides had Indian allies fighting with them, But the most 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:40.279 influential group was led by the Shawnee two Cumpsa and 0:04:40.440 --> 0:04:44.120 his Pan Indian gang fighting with the British. Two comes 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:46.800 to his legacy is that he garnered the largest fighting 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:50.719 force of Native Americans to stand against America. Some believe 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:54.359 upwards of six thousand warriors at its peak. He gathered 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:57.120 fighters from at least twelve different tribes to fight for 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:02.279 Indian lands through a religious, military and political revolution. Uniting 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.160 warriors from the tribes was a feat in and of itself, 0:05:05.360 --> 0:05:08.800 as they carried the burden of generations of internal conflict 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:12.720 themselves over land, and most of the tribes rejected to 0:05:12.839 --> 0:05:16.600 comes his radical vision of standing against the United States, 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:21.120 demanding and Indian nation. Their reasons are as elusive as 0:05:21.120 --> 0:05:24.880 a clouded sunrise. You know exactly what's happening, but you 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:27.960 just can't see it clearly. Some of the tribes were 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:31.240 being paid by the United States, many had already fled 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:34.440 west to the Mississippi, and some just knew that this 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:38.560 plan wouldn't succeed. It comes to wasn't a chief, but 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:41.479 he rose to power in the Shawnee world because of 0:05:41.520 --> 0:05:45.440 his visionary ideology, his personal charisma, his success as a 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:49.680 war leader, and his incredible oratory skill, and his striking 0:05:49.720 --> 0:05:52.320 good looks didn't hurt either, or at least that's what 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:57.159 they say about him. However, he wasn't alone. His Brotherton's Squattawa, 0:05:57.360 --> 0:05:59.839 known as the Prophet, led the religious side of this 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.919 revolution and stands as one of the most influential Native 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:06.919 American prophets in known history. These boys were fighting for 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:10.040 a diying way of life which was rapidly being choked 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:13.040 out by American encroachment. If you listen to the last 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:17.960 two episodes, you know all this stuff already. Here's author 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:23.440 and historian Peter Cozens on two comes his death, So 0:06:23.560 --> 0:06:27.039 two comes A. He basically prophesies his own death. He 0:06:27.120 --> 0:06:30.080 has an intuition that this is going to be his 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:33.760 last battle that he's going into. Tell me what happens. Yeah, 0:06:33.880 --> 0:06:37.480 he um t Coomsa and tanks Ottawa, and they're greatly 0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:41.600 reduced alliance of now just five hundred warriors down from 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:44.960 again nearly six thousand at the high point. They're retreating 0:06:45.000 --> 0:06:49.280 deeper and deeper into Ontario with various this very small 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:53.680 British force, and they're being pursued by a vastly superior 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:57.840 American force under William Henry Harrison, and they're fighting skirmishes 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:00.800 all along the way as they're falling back day by 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:05.120 day from Detroit deeper into Ontario. And on the night 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:09.200 of October four, eight thirteen, to come sitting around the 0:07:09.240 --> 0:07:14.680 fire with his closest followers, and suddenly two come. So 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:19.280 just has a revelation that he's going to be killed 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:23.200 in battle the next day. And uh, one of the 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:26.200 Indians to whom he tells us his name is Shabona. 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:28.680 And there's the fact that a town in Illinois name 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:31.120 for him. Now, he who went on to live into 0:07:31.200 --> 0:07:34.640 the eighteen forties, at least, you know, we called this, 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:37.800 as did others that you know, he was he was 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.520 going to die the next day. Now, whether that's apocryphal 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:44.200 or not, that's what happened. And the next morning, on 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:49.520 Cobra fifth, eighteen thirteen, the British commander, a guy named Proctor, 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:54.200 finally decides to stand and fight the Americans. Here's Cornell 0:07:54.280 --> 0:07:59.840 professor and author Robert Morgan, very good British general, very 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:03.800 close to t Compsey, named General Brock, has been recalled 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:09.120 and replaced by General Procter, who is incompetent. Basically, he 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:10.640 don't know how to talk to these men. He certainly 0:08:10.680 --> 0:08:13.760 doesn't know how to talk to Indians. They're marching away 0:08:13.800 --> 0:08:18.000 from the Americans, going up towards the River Thames, and 0:08:18.600 --> 0:08:21.640 Procter does such a bad job that he divides his 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:25.200 men and he doesn't communicate well with the Indians. And 0:08:25.280 --> 0:08:29.480 when Harrison arrives, he just essentially runs away and leaves 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.719 Tcmpsey to fight the battle. That all the fighting is 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:36.400 really done by the Indians. But Harrison is really good. 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:39.480 I mean, whatever his reputation he is among revisionists, this 0:08:39.559 --> 0:08:43.719 guy is really smart and he defeats that group. Of 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:47.120 the hero the Battle of the Thams. Two other heroes, 0:08:47.360 --> 0:08:52.319 a colonel named Richard Mentor Johnson, is the one who 0:08:52.320 --> 0:08:56.640 actually kills Tacpsy. He's wounded by Decompy and he goes 0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:06.120 in and shoots him at close range and kills him. 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:09.840 The supernatural nature of two comes his revelation about his death, 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:13.199 and the evidence from the natural realm seemed to be 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:17.400 converging together. Almost every male figure in his life had 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:20.120 been killed in battle. Two comes to was now forty 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:23.400 five years old in the age when the freshwater River 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:27.280 of Youth begins to fade into the overwhelming volume of 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:30.680 the salty sea at the coast of middle age, and 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.600 for the lifespan of his time older age. This time 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.480 in a man's life brings more wisdom, but in hand 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:40.880 to hand combat, in months and even years of constant motion, 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:44.280 living on war rations and throwing his broken leg from 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:47.720 the bison hunt, his physical body wasn't at its peak. 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:51.520 A professional sports player whose career goes beyond forty is 0:09:51.559 --> 0:09:54.559 an outlier. But I'm not suggesting two comes To died 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:58.240 because of his age. It's just an interesting thought. But 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:01.160 I wonder if two comes To all ways knew he'd 0:10:01.200 --> 0:10:05.120 die on the battlefield. The sheer volume of exposure to 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:09.120 potential death and the nobility in his family associated with 0:10:09.200 --> 0:10:13.920 death for this cause are interesting factors. His father, pucks 0:10:13.960 --> 0:10:16.600 and Waw, died at the Battle of Point Pleasant and 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:20.000 was buried in a shallow grave in the forest. But 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:24.360 before he died, he tasked his son chis Aqua two Comes, 0:10:24.360 --> 0:10:28.160 his big brother, to fight for Indian lands at all costs. 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:32.400 Chis Aqua would later declare he'd rather the fouls of 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:35.880 the air pick his bones than be buried back at camp. 0:10:36.240 --> 0:10:40.120 And that's exactly what happened. Many like to throw around 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.880 that they're involved in a cause they die for, but 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:47.480 for most of us those words are a cheap verbal thrill, 0:10:47.960 --> 0:10:52.200 a joy ride, and counterfeit valor two comes to paid 0:10:52.240 --> 0:10:56.400 in full in the currency of blood. Here's Dr Dave 0:10:56.640 --> 0:11:02.679 Edmonds of the University of Texas, Dallas. When the fight 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:06.400 is over, and then after his death in resistance, just 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:09.800 sort of they crumble and they begin to run. They 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:13.560 go back towards Detroit when the war. When the battle 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:18.319 is over, his body is identified, initially by some people 0:11:18.360 --> 0:11:21.280 who knew him. It's on the ground there. They go 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:25.120 to get Harrison and a guy named Simon Kenton who's 0:11:25.160 --> 0:11:28.760 an American Scouts kind of like Boon. By the time 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:32.240 they get there, many of the bodies are mutilated horribly, 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:35.959 and that they cut strips to make razor straps. They 0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:39.760 cut strips to all kinds of trophies, and his body 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:42.319 who they think, his body is so mutilated they really 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:45.959 stuff off. They can't even tell who it is. So 0:11:46.120 --> 0:11:50.120 the question is then what happens to the body. That's 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.280 that's hard to say. I personally think there was a 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:55.960 mass grave and they put a lot of the bodies 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.840 in there. Personally, I think he lies with a lot 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:01.720 of the men that fell at the battle. Other people 0:12:01.840 --> 0:12:04.160 said no, that they carried him off and buried his 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:07.040 bones in the body. I don't really know. I'm sure 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:09.439 if Tacompsa would have had his way, he would probably 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:12.680 have wanted to be buried there amidst the warriors who 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:15.800 fought with him. But then some people said, oh, no, 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:18.320 he escaped, and so no, no, no, no, but he's 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:23.440 killed there. The man's years old, yeah, prom and the 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:25.959 man had killed him was a uh, there's probably a 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:30.040 nine chance that was Richard M. Johnson, a colonel from 0:12:30.120 --> 0:12:33.880 Kentucky would then later go on to become Vice president. 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:37.640 And he ran on the he used the horrible, horrible 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:42.880 slogan Rumsey Dumpsey, Rumsey Dumpsey. I'm Colonel Johnson, and I 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:47.000 killed the Kumpsey. Well. Um wow. That so that that 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:51.640 would be equivalent to like a political leader today running 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:56.160 off that they killed Osama bin Laden. Yeah. Yeah, except yeah, 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.880 except everybody hated some have been ladden and nobody really 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:02.560 to come. But the American people would have been really 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:07.199 threatened by him though something but like he was an 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:13.679 enemy of Yah. In eighteen thirty six, Richard Mentor Johnson 0:13:13.760 --> 0:13:16.920 ran for vice president. It was a peak time for 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:20.280 Tacumsas fame in America. It was twenty three years after 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:23.120 his death, and he ran on the Democratic ticket with 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:26.600 Martin van Buren, touting that he had killed two Cumsa. 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.360 And notice that his rhyme makes it sound like they 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:33.720 pronounced two cumpsa to come see, which my friend Robert 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:36.920 Morgan does. And we all know already that we're all 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:39.720 pronouncing it wrong because it was actually two come fifth, 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:45.320 which is an odd pronunciation for our ear. Anyway. Another 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.439 name that just came up with Simon Kenton, who's believed 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:52.559 to have identified the mutilated body of Tecumsa. Some say 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:55.320 it was because one leg was shorter than the other 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:59.200 from the bison wreck. Kenton was an influential American scout, 0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:02.400 hunter and tiersman. He was a friend of Daniel Boone, 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:06.320 credited with saving his life once. The exploits of Kenton's 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:09.600 life on the frontier are only slightly overshadowed by his 0:14:09.720 --> 0:14:13.880 contemporary Boon. He was captured by the Shawnee, ran the 0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:17.880 gauntlet multiple times, was adopted as a Shawnee, and they 0:14:18.000 --> 0:14:22.960 named him Cutahota, which means the condemned man. The American 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:28.200 frontier was a small world. Lastly, the mutilation of enemy 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:32.240 bodies during this time was common for both sides of 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:36.560 this warfare, from scalping to the Americans cutting long strips 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:39.720 of skin off the backs of enemies to make leather goods. 0:14:40.040 --> 0:14:43.600 It was a wildly brutal time and was normalized in 0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:47.320 the culture of war. Scalping has long been seen as 0:14:47.360 --> 0:14:51.640 a historical Indian practice, but some revisionists are now saying 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:54.880 that Europeans started it in North America as a mechanism 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:59.040 of a bounty system. However, there is substantial evidence from 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:02.480 the records of your Appean's earliest contact with Indigenous people 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:06.560 that it was happening before they got here. Interesting stuff. 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:12.720 Here's Robert Morgan defining the turning point catalyzed by two 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:17.160 comps's death. But once their great leader is killed, the 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:22.200 morale of the Indians kind of evaporates. It's a total victory, 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:27.080 and the British army has fled, and the Indians disperse 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:30.880 and never gather in that kind of forth again, ever again, 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.360 never again. Even a little big horn. There was a 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:37.960 large group of Indians, but they were there not to 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:42.640 fight Americans, but to fight the crows, to drive them 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:48.440 out of s After his death, never again would Native 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:52.760 American forces be rallied in such great numbers against America. 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:56.000 If nothing else, this shows Two comes to strength as 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:58.760 a leader. And if you remember, on the last episode, 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.960 Peter Cozen's told us how t comes to save the 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:06.040 lives of prisoners of war from the Kentucky militia. Before 0:16:06.200 --> 0:16:08.600 Two comes to his men killed them all. This was 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:12.200 told to America, and we loved him for it. Here's 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:16.680 an interesting consideration. I mean, his corps was flayed, his 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.520 skin was slaid off his corpse by, if not some 0:16:19.600 --> 0:16:23.520 of the very same Kentuckians whose lives he spared at 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:26.520 Fort Meigs, at least by Kentuckians who knew some of 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:32.560 those Kentuckians. That isn't a tragic tragedy. Yeah, I marveled 0:16:32.640 --> 0:16:36.560 at his restraint, just as I marvel at tanks Wattawa's 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:41.040 ability to hold fast to his religious beliefs even in 0:16:41.080 --> 0:16:43.480 the wake of defeat. And he went on to live 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:48.480 until eighteen thirty five. And yeah, he died. The prophet 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:52.200 died on the outskirts of modern day Kansas City, Kansas, 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.080 on the Shawnee Reservation in eighteen thirty five. I mean, 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.120 he was a broken man. He was I think sixty 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:02.840 one when he died, but he still up stamious, still 0:17:03.120 --> 0:17:06.960 meditated to the Master of Life, still held true to 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.520 his beliefs. So they're both remarkable men in their own right. 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:13.360 And then together, you know, you have to and there's note, 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.160 there's no disputing the fact that they were the two 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:20.600 most influential Indian siblings in American Indian history. I mean 0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:23.520 to come so, I think we've shown conclusively was the 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:27.720 most influential political military leader, Thanks Fatawa was clearly the 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:32.000 most influential Indian prophet in American Indian history. So together 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:36.359 they're clearly the most influential Indian siblings. But really giving 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:40.120 American Indians their place in history, American history, You've got 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.119 to argue that they were two of the most influential 0:17:42.119 --> 0:17:45.240 siblings in American history period. Who can you compare them to? 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:49.280 And you know, Tanks Flatawa was able to cope with 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:53.520 life afterwards. He eventually actually became an occasional house guest 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:57.960 of the Governor of Michigan Territory who fought against the 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:02.159 Kumps and Flatawa to Harrison, became a house guest and 0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:06.480 visitor in Detroit, helped lead the Shawnee west to Kansas. 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:09.320 You eventually, in a manner of speaking, he made his 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.040 peace with the Americans. It come. So I don't think 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:14.679 you ever could have. I don't think it was in 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:16.960 his makeup. I mean, he was so dedicated to that, 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:21.880 you know, that idea of a Panni Indian alliance and homeland. 0:18:21.960 --> 0:18:24.200 I don't know if he could have adapted to the 0:18:24.280 --> 0:18:28.119 change circumstances. Could he have adapted to what was going 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:31.439 to happen to his people, or would it have happened 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.760 at all if he'd lived a full life. We're tiptoeing 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:37.920 around a grand assumption that the timing of his death 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:41.000 was an act of mercy from this master of life 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:44.440 that he served. It's a question no one is qualified 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:48.560 to answer. But here's really what we're contemplating. Is there 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:53.760 a realm beyond this one, superintending men's lives. Without a doubt, 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:57.400 both of these brothers would have said yes, so could 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:00.600 this master of life have protected to come? So the 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.800 assumption is that he could have. I'm not suggesting for 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.000 a second that I know the full scope of the 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:09.280 doctrine of the Shawnees, not at all. But it's clear 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:13.520 two Comesa was no fatalist, and from overwhelming evidence, he 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:17.879 believed the wilful actions of men could bend the spirit realm, 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:21.480 which then orchestrated the natural realm. And I can get 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:26.240 behind that, taking out any philosophical meanderings. We don't know 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.960 why he died, but the cold reality is that his corpse, 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:33.080 absence of his spirit, lay on the banks of the 0:19:33.119 --> 0:19:37.200 Thames River on October five, eighteen thirteen. Two comes His 0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:40.680 passion for his vision of an Indian nation seemed to 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:45.359 be so resolute it's hard to imagine him dying peacefully 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:50.679 on a Kansas reservation. Here's Dr Edmonds, and we're about 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.000 to be set up for a sucker punch. He is 0:19:54.040 --> 0:19:57.280 an irremarkable man in American history. He is a man 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:02.000 who has epitomizes want it within the broaderst film of 0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:08.760 American culture, what an ideal Indian person should be. Wait 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:13.679 a minute, what an ideal Indian person should be? Is 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:17.040 that what he said as in an American being the 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:20.639 judge of what an ideal person from another culture should 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:24.840 be based on the things favorable to our worldview. Yeah, 0:20:25.000 --> 0:20:27.320 I think we do that all the time. It would 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:31.480 be like Russia elizing an American because they exemplified what 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:35.880 Russia thinks an American should be. Like, it's a mind twister, 0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:39.480 But really, what I'm learning is how complex of a 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:43.320 story this is to tell. And I'm certain that my 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:46.640 own biases have clouded the truth even on this here 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:51.199 Burgary's podcast. If you remember, I've been asking from the 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:54.960 beginning why to Come so was an American hero. We're 0:20:55.000 --> 0:20:59.120 about to be served a hot plate of gotcha. Now, 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:02.200 Dr Edmunds is going to tell us all the fables 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:05.560 created about two Come to his legacy that made him 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:12.720 more palatable to the Americans, and that in some ways 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:15.280 it was hard to do biography of him because there's 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:18.600 so much stuff associated with him. For example, there's the 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:21.560 myth that he fell in love with a white woman, 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:25.679 Rebecca Galloway supposedly, and he set at her feet and 0:21:25.720 --> 0:21:28.679 she read Shakespeare to him. You can see this throughout 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:31.880 the nineteenth century. All the stuff written about him talks 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:36.240 about this Rebecca Galloway. That is pure hogwash, but it's 0:21:36.400 --> 0:21:39.000 it's sort of adds to this image of a man 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:42.280 and two come to from what we know, was married twice. 0:21:42.320 --> 0:21:44.840 Second time he married an older woman who helped take 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:46.720 care of his son. He has a son that will 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:49.520 survive him. There are the other one is he's an 0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:54.320 argue's always sometimes pictured his tall, sort of light skinned. 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:57.359 And there's some one rumor is that his his mother 0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:01.720 was a white captive. Come on, this is trying to 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:05.359 to to lighten him. The classic one is we know, 0:22:05.480 --> 0:22:07.240 for example, he had he had a ring in his 0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:11.800 in his nose and hung down upon his lip. And 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:15.280 the early early pictures, early portraits that we have, our sketches, 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:18.879 have that on him. But after about ten or fifteen years, 0:22:18.920 --> 0:22:22.760 the white illustrators took it out because it didn't it 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:25.920 was they thought that denigrated him. Oh. The other one 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:27.960 that was very big, that he was a member of 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:31.520 the Masonic lodge. For God's sakes, he was not a Mason. 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:35.560 But it's but these are nineteenth century stuff that gets 0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:38.399 associated with him sort of to build him up, and 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:40.960 he doesn't need it. He stands on his own. It's 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:45.199 a remarkable man. In today's world, we might call this 0:22:45.320 --> 0:22:49.800 fake news except to make someone look favorable in the fakeness, 0:22:50.280 --> 0:22:53.520 But we're about to see a potential reason that we 0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:58.240 wanted him to look good. Here's Robert Morgan directly answering 0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:01.199 the question of why it comes to qualified as an 0:23:01.200 --> 0:23:06.320 American hero. If he's right, the motivations aren't as noble 0:23:06.520 --> 0:23:10.440 as they see. Now, let's see in with the speculation 0:23:10.560 --> 0:23:14.200 on why Decompsy is such a hero to Americans though 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:18.600 he fought against Americans many times. Well, Americans do admire 0:23:19.000 --> 0:23:22.040 a great warrior. I'm an extremely brave and also a 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:26.080 great horator. But in my opinion, the reason he's really 0:23:26.160 --> 0:23:29.760 so much admired because he was all those things. It 0:23:29.880 --> 0:23:34.480 was charismatic, handsome, smart, could be friends to Americans, and 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:40.919 but he lost. This tremendous leader who loses so we 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:43.400 can feel good about it. We thought he's a great man, 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:46.840 but he lost. We beat in So you're a hero. 0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:50.159 If you can beat a hero, if you defeat somebody 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:52.160 who's not a hero, then that's not such a great 0:23:52.200 --> 0:23:56.520 accomplishment that we defeated decom Say. You know, there are 0:23:56.520 --> 0:24:00.359 other Indian heroes, but there's nobody like Decome. Say. Sherman 0:24:00.480 --> 0:24:03.439 was named William D. Compsy Sherman. I grew up in 0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:06.080 a community where there was a cumpsy shipman. He was 0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:10.080 t cumpsy shipman that the people admired him. You could 0:24:10.119 --> 0:24:12.719 admire him so much because he was a great leader. 0:24:12.880 --> 0:24:15.320 But we beat him, which makes us seem even bigger. 0:24:15.320 --> 0:24:18.040 If you defeat a great man, then you're great. He 0:24:18.040 --> 0:24:22.639 appeals to advantage. Oh yeah, I kind of think of 0:24:22.680 --> 0:24:25.439 it like a sports in sports situation, like if you 0:24:25.480 --> 0:24:28.480 have a great rival and you're on this side, if 0:24:28.480 --> 0:24:31.760 that rival beat you, you're it's just you're gonna hate 0:24:31.800 --> 0:24:34.680 him all the worse. But if if you beat that 0:24:34.760 --> 0:24:37.840 guy all of a sudden, you might kind of be like, well, 0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:41.320 you know, they're they're pretty good guys, man, they're great competitors. There, there, this, 0:24:41.480 --> 0:24:43.840 there that. But it's you only feel good about him 0:24:43.840 --> 0:24:48.199 because you beat him. Well, Achilles defeats Hector was the 0:24:48.200 --> 0:24:51.159 greatest warrior the Trojan's ever had. I mean, don't know, 0:24:51.200 --> 0:24:53.360 that's that's really quite an accomplic. You're only as good 0:24:53.400 --> 0:25:04.959 as your opponent. In a young nation hungry for identity, 0:25:05.240 --> 0:25:09.640 beating Twokumpsa and elevating him as a national hero made 0:25:09.720 --> 0:25:12.800 us feel good about ourselves. If you look at our 0:25:12.840 --> 0:25:16.960 motivations for this admiration that we still have for him today. 0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:19.879 It makes me wonder how close that two coumes so 0:25:20.000 --> 0:25:24.960 we've described on this series really reflects the real two cumpsa. 0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:29.399 Our biases shape our stories. It also makes me wonder 0:25:29.480 --> 0:25:32.639 who is qualified to tell any story at all? And 0:25:32.680 --> 0:25:35.800 from what basis can a human even operate from a 0:25:35.840 --> 0:25:40.000 position that lacks bias. That's a big question with a 0:25:40.040 --> 0:25:43.480 tough answer. But I know just the guy to talk 0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:49.199 to about two kumsa. Here's Shawnee Chief Ben Barnes. Do 0:25:49.240 --> 0:25:53.720 you think we've kind of westernized and turned him into 0:25:53.760 --> 0:25:57.360 a hero when he wasn't? I am, but I think 0:25:57.560 --> 0:25:59.760 I think it's been hyper glamorized. And I think if 0:25:59.760 --> 0:26:02.120 you go see that play in Ohio, I think it's 0:26:02.200 --> 0:26:05.200