1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, all the stuff written about him that is pure hogwash. 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: These are nineteenth century stuff that gets associated with him 3 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: sort of to build him up, and he doesn't need it. 4 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 1: He stands on his own. It's a remarkable man. We're 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,799 Speaker 1: on our third and final episode in our series on 6 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: the Shawnee Leader two COMPSA. He's been called the greatest 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: Native leader in American history, but we've found ourselves backed 8 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: against the bedrock of inevitability. On this side of mortality, 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,559 Speaker 1: all great men and their stories must come to an end. 10 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 1: This episode is titled two Comes his Death. We'll talk 11 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: about that fateful day in October eighteen thirteen, but perhaps 12 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: more relevant to us today, will explore the ways in 13 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: which we remember history and sometimes play tricks with our 14 00:00:55,360 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: conscience to console an uncomfortable past. Was the image of 15 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: the Shawnee reflected back to America really him at all? 16 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 1: And will contrast the way different cultures view their great men. 17 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: Not everybody does it the same. And lastly, on the 18 00:01:13,959 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: wild Meter of Interest, which is penned in The Red Shawnee, 19 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: Chief Ben Barnes tells us the vision and mission of 20 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 1: the modern day Shawnee Nation. I really doubt that you're 21 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:29,800 Speaker 1: gonna want to miss this one. Really giving American Indians 22 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: their place in history, American history. You've got to argue 23 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 1: that they were two of the most influential siblings in 24 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 1: American history period. Who can you compare them to? My 25 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: name is Clay Nukelem and this is the Bear Grease Podcast, 26 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: where we'll explore things forgotten but relevant, search for insight 27 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: and unlikely places, and where we'll tell the story of 28 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: Americans who lived their lives close to the land. Presented 29 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 1: by f HF Gear American Maid, purpose built hunting and 30 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as the 31 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: places we explore. Thank you very much. Listen up fund evening. 32 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: This song is called the Last Days of Tecumsa by 33 00:02:34,760 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: American songwriter Grant Lee Buffalo Yeah, j Yeah, and the 34 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:07,040 Speaker 1: song's lyrics are mysterious and short. In one minute and 35 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:11,120 Speaker 1: six seconds, it talks about spacemen and airplanes, but at 36 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,399 Speaker 1: the heart of the song, he says he couldn't believe 37 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: all that he knew would fade. The song ends, and 38 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: you wish it was longer. In many ways, it's like 39 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:25,519 Speaker 1: two comes his life like a dagger piercing your soul. 40 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: Two comes. His plight for the traditional Indian way of 41 00:03:28,840 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: life and lands leaves me gasping for a breath of 42 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:35,920 Speaker 1: justice or a hint of fairness, and a scenario stacked 43 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 1: with an almost undeniable inevitability. It's hard to reconcile. It 44 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: does not escape me that if t Comes his vision 45 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: had prevailed, these United States, which I've become fond of, 46 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: would look much different than they do today, which leaves 47 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: me searching deep to evaluate if I really wanted that 48 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: justice or does it just make me feel good to 49 00:03:57,680 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: look back and cast well wishes on this warrior's vision. 50 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 1: We're gonna dive right into that faithful day in eighteen 51 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: thirteen when two comes to his men and a meager 52 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: British force found themselves pushed into Ontario, Canada, after fighting 53 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: near Detroit, Michigan. They're in the middle of what would 54 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: become known as the War of eighteen twelve, a fight 55 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: between Great Britain and the young United States. The war 56 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: started because of British interference with US trade routes, but 57 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: America wanted to own Indian lands and Canada, and both 58 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: sides had Indian allies fighting with them, But the most 59 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: influential group was led by the Shawnee two Cumpsa and 60 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: his Pan Indian gang fighting with the British. Two comes 61 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: to his legacy is that he garnered the largest fighting 62 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: force of Native Americans to stand against America. Some believe 63 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: upwards of six thousand warriors at its peak. He gathered 64 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: fighters from at least twelve different tribes to fight for 65 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:02,279 Speaker 1: Indian lands through a religious, military and political revolution. Uniting 66 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: warriors from the tribes was a feat in and of itself, 67 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: as they carried the burden of generations of internal conflict 68 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 1: themselves over land, and most of the tribes rejected to 69 00:05:12,839 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 1: comes his radical vision of standing against the United States, 70 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 1: demanding and Indian nation. Their reasons are as elusive as 71 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 1: a clouded sunrise. You know exactly what's happening, but you 72 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: just can't see it clearly. Some of the tribes were 73 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,240 Speaker 1: being paid by the United States, many had already fled 74 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: west to the Mississippi, and some just knew that this 75 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 1: plan wouldn't succeed. It comes to wasn't a chief, but 76 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: he rose to power in the Shawnee world because of 77 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: his visionary ideology, his personal charisma, his success as a 78 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,680 Speaker 1: war leader, and his incredible oratory skill, and his striking 79 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: good looks didn't hurt either, or at least that's what 80 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 1: they say about him. However, he wasn't alone. His Brotherton's Squattawa, 81 00:05:57,360 --> 00:05:59,839 Speaker 1: known as the Prophet, led the religious side of this 82 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,919 Speaker 1: revolution and stands as one of the most influential Native 83 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 1: American prophets in known history. These boys were fighting for 84 00:06:06,960 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: a diying way of life which was rapidly being choked 85 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,040 Speaker 1: out by American encroachment. If you listen to the last 86 00:06:13,040 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: two episodes, you know all this stuff already. Here's author 87 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: and historian Peter Cozens on two comes his death, So 88 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:27,039 Speaker 1: two comes A. He basically prophesies his own death. He 89 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: has an intuition that this is going to be his 90 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: last battle that he's going into. Tell me what happens. Yeah, 91 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,480 Speaker 1: he um t Coomsa and tanks Ottawa, and they're greatly 92 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: reduced alliance of now just five hundred warriors down from 93 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: again nearly six thousand at the high point. They're retreating 94 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:49,280 Speaker 1: deeper and deeper into Ontario with various this very small 95 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:53,680 Speaker 1: British force, and they're being pursued by a vastly superior 96 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: American force under William Henry Harrison, and they're fighting skirmishes 97 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 1: all along the way as they're falling back day by 98 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: day from Detroit deeper into Ontario. And on the night 99 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: of October four, eight thirteen, to come sitting around the 100 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:14,680 Speaker 1: fire with his closest followers, and suddenly two come. So 101 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: just has a revelation that he's going to be killed 102 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: in battle the next day. And uh, one of the 103 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: Indians to whom he tells us his name is Shabona. 104 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: And there's the fact that a town in Illinois name 105 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: for him. Now, he who went on to live into 106 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: the eighteen forties, at least, you know, we called this, 107 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: as did others that you know, he was he was 108 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: going to die the next day. Now, whether that's apocryphal 109 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: or not, that's what happened. And the next morning, on 110 00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: Cobra fifth, eighteen thirteen, the British commander, a guy named Proctor, 111 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: finally decides to stand and fight the Americans. Here's Cornell 112 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: professor and author Robert Morgan, very good British general, very 113 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: close to t Compsey, named General Brock, has been recalled 114 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:09,120 Speaker 1: and replaced by General Procter, who is incompetent. Basically, he 115 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: don't know how to talk to these men. He certainly 116 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: doesn't know how to talk to Indians. They're marching away 117 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: from the Americans, going up towards the River Thames, and 118 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: Procter does such a bad job that he divides his 119 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: men and he doesn't communicate well with the Indians. And 120 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: when Harrison arrives, he just essentially runs away and leaves 121 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,719 Speaker 1: Tcmpsey to fight the battle. That all the fighting is 122 00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: really done by the Indians. But Harrison is really good. 123 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: I mean, whatever his reputation he is among revisionists, this 124 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:43,719 Speaker 1: guy is really smart and he defeats that group. Of 125 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: the hero the Battle of the Thams. Two other heroes, 126 00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 1: a colonel named Richard Mentor Johnson, is the one who 127 00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: actually kills Tacpsy. He's wounded by Decompy and he goes 128 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: in and shoots him at close range and kills him. 129 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: The supernatural nature of two comes his revelation about his death, 130 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:13,199 Speaker 1: and the evidence from the natural realm seemed to be 131 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: converging together. Almost every male figure in his life had 132 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: been killed in battle. Two comes to was now forty 133 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: five years old in the age when the freshwater River 134 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: of Youth begins to fade into the overwhelming volume of 135 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,680 Speaker 1: the salty sea at the coast of middle age, and 136 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: for the lifespan of his time older age. This time 137 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 1: in a man's life brings more wisdom, but in hand 138 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: to hand combat, in months and even years of constant motion, 139 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: living on war rations and throwing his broken leg from 140 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: the bison hunt, his physical body wasn't at its peak. 141 00:09:48,320 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: A professional sports player whose career goes beyond forty is 142 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 1: an outlier. But I'm not suggesting two comes To died 143 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 1: because of his age. It's just an interesting thought. But 144 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: I wonder if two comes To all ways knew he'd 145 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 1: die on the battlefield. The sheer volume of exposure to 146 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: potential death and the nobility in his family associated with 147 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: death for this cause are interesting factors. His father, pucks 148 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: and Waw, died at the Battle of Point Pleasant and 149 00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: was buried in a shallow grave in the forest. But 150 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: before he died, he tasked his son chis Aqua two Comes, 151 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: his big brother, to fight for Indian lands at all costs. 152 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: Chis Aqua would later declare he'd rather the fouls of 153 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: the air pick his bones than be buried back at camp. 154 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what happened. Many like to throw around 155 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,880 Speaker 1: that they're involved in a cause they die for, but 156 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: for most of us those words are a cheap verbal thrill, 157 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:52,200 Speaker 1: a joy ride, and counterfeit valor two comes to paid 158 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: in full in the currency of blood. Here's Dr Dave 159 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:02,679 Speaker 1: Edmonds of the University of Texas, Dallas. When the fight 160 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: is over, and then after his death in resistance, just 161 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 1: sort of they crumble and they begin to run. They 162 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: go back towards Detroit when the war. When the battle 163 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 1: is over, his body is identified, initially by some people 164 00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 1: who knew him. It's on the ground there. They go 165 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: to get Harrison and a guy named Simon Kenton who's 166 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: an American Scouts kind of like Boon. By the time 167 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: they get there, many of the bodies are mutilated horribly, 168 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,959 Speaker 1: and that they cut strips to make razor straps. They 169 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 1: cut strips to all kinds of trophies, and his body 170 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:42,319 Speaker 1: who they think, his body is so mutilated they really 171 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,959 Speaker 1: stuff off. They can't even tell who it is. So 172 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: the question is then what happens to the body. That's 173 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: that's hard to say. I personally think there was a 174 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:55,960 Speaker 1: mass grave and they put a lot of the bodies 175 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: in there. Personally, I think he lies with a lot 176 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: of the men that fell at the battle. Other people 177 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 1: said no, that they carried him off and buried his 178 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: bones in the body. I don't really know. I'm sure 179 00:12:07,040 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 1: if Tacompsa would have had his way, he would probably 180 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: have wanted to be buried there amidst the warriors who 181 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 1: fought with him. But then some people said, oh, no, 182 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: he escaped, and so no, no, no, no, but he's 183 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: killed there. The man's years old, yeah, prom and the 184 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:25,959 Speaker 1: man had killed him was a uh, there's probably a 185 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 1: nine chance that was Richard M. Johnson, a colonel from 186 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: Kentucky would then later go on to become Vice president. 187 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: And he ran on the he used the horrible, horrible 188 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: slogan Rumsey Dumpsey, Rumsey Dumpsey. I'm Colonel Johnson, and I 189 00:12:43,040 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: killed the Kumpsey. Well. Um wow. That so that that 190 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: would be equivalent to like a political leader today running 191 00:12:51,679 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: off that they killed Osama bin Laden. Yeah. Yeah, except yeah, 192 00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:59,880 Speaker 1: except everybody hated some have been ladden and nobody really 193 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: to come. But the American people would have been really 194 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:07,199 Speaker 1: threatened by him though something but like he was an 195 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 1: enemy of Yah. In eighteen thirty six, Richard Mentor Johnson 196 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: ran for vice president. It was a peak time for 197 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: Tacumsas fame in America. It was twenty three years after 198 00:13:20,320 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: his death, and he ran on the Democratic ticket with 199 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 1: Martin van Buren, touting that he had killed two Cumsa. 200 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: And notice that his rhyme makes it sound like they 201 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: pronounced two cumpsa to come see, which my friend Robert 202 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:36,920 Speaker 1: Morgan does. And we all know already that we're all 203 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: pronouncing it wrong because it was actually two come fifth, 204 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 1: which is an odd pronunciation for our ear. Anyway. Another 205 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,439 Speaker 1: name that just came up with Simon Kenton, who's believed 206 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,559 Speaker 1: to have identified the mutilated body of Tecumsa. Some say 207 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,320 Speaker 1: it was because one leg was shorter than the other 208 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: from the bison wreck. Kenton was an influential American scout, 209 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 1: hunter and tiersman. He was a friend of Daniel Boone, 210 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 1: credited with saving his life once. The exploits of Kenton's 211 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: life on the frontier are only slightly overshadowed by his 212 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,880 Speaker 1: contemporary Boon. He was captured by the Shawnee, ran the 213 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 1: gauntlet multiple times, was adopted as a Shawnee, and they 214 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: named him Cutahota, which means the condemned man. The American 215 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: frontier was a small world. Lastly, the mutilation of enemy 216 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 1: bodies during this time was common for both sides of 217 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 1: this warfare, from scalping to the Americans cutting long strips 218 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: of skin off the backs of enemies to make leather goods. 219 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: It was a wildly brutal time and was normalized in 220 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: the culture of war. Scalping has long been seen as 221 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: a historical Indian practice, but some revisionists are now saying 222 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: that Europeans started it in North America as a mechanism 223 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: of a bounty system. However, there is substantial evidence from 224 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,480 Speaker 1: the records of your Appean's earliest contact with Indigenous people 225 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: that it was happening before they got here. Interesting stuff. 226 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: Here's Robert Morgan defining the turning point catalyzed by two 227 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 1: comps's death. But once their great leader is killed, the 228 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: morale of the Indians kind of evaporates. It's a total victory, 229 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: and the British army has fled, and the Indians disperse 230 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 1: and never gather in that kind of forth again, ever again, 231 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 1: never again. Even a little big horn. There was a 232 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: large group of Indians, but they were there not to 233 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: fight Americans, but to fight the crows, to drive them 234 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: out of s After his death, never again would Native 235 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: American forces be rallied in such great numbers against America. 236 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: If nothing else, this shows Two comes to strength as 237 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 1: a leader. And if you remember, on the last episode, 238 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,960 Speaker 1: Peter Cozen's told us how t comes to save the 239 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,040 Speaker 1: lives of prisoners of war from the Kentucky militia. Before 240 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: Two comes to his men killed them all. This was 241 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: told to America, and we loved him for it. Here's 242 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: an interesting consideration. I mean, his corps was flayed, his 243 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: skin was slaid off his corpse by, if not some 244 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 1: of the very same Kentuckians whose lives he spared at 245 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 1: Fort Meigs, at least by Kentuckians who knew some of 246 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 1: those Kentuckians. That isn't a tragic tragedy. Yeah, I marveled 247 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 1: at his restraint, just as I marvel at tanks Wattawa's 248 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: ability to hold fast to his religious beliefs even in 249 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: the wake of defeat. And he went on to live 250 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: until eighteen thirty five. And yeah, he died. The prophet 251 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: died on the outskirts of modern day Kansas City, Kansas, 252 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 1: on the Shawnee Reservation in eighteen thirty five. I mean, 253 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: he was a broken man. He was I think sixty 254 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: one when he died, but he still up stamious, still 255 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,960 Speaker 1: meditated to the Master of Life, still held true to 256 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,520 Speaker 1: his beliefs. So they're both remarkable men in their own right. 257 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,360 Speaker 1: And then together, you know, you have to and there's note, 258 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,160 Speaker 1: there's no disputing the fact that they were the two 259 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: most influential Indian siblings in American Indian history. I mean 260 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: to come so, I think we've shown conclusively was the 261 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: most influential political military leader, Thanks Fatawa was clearly the 262 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: most influential Indian prophet in American Indian history. So together 263 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: they're clearly the most influential Indian siblings. But really giving 264 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 1: American Indians their place in history, American history, You've got 265 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: to argue that they were two of the most influential 266 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: siblings in American history period. Who can you compare them to? 267 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: And you know, Tanks Flatawa was able to cope with 268 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: life afterwards. He eventually actually became an occasional house guest 269 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: of the Governor of Michigan Territory who fought against the 270 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,159 Speaker 1: Kumps and Flatawa to Harrison, became a house guest and 271 00:18:02,320 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: visitor in Detroit, helped lead the Shawnee west to Kansas. 272 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: You eventually, in a manner of speaking, he made his 273 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 1: peace with the Americans. It come. So I don't think 274 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,679 Speaker 1: you ever could have. I don't think it was in 275 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: his makeup. I mean, he was so dedicated to that, 276 00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 1: you know, that idea of a Panni Indian alliance and homeland. 277 00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: I don't know if he could have adapted to the 278 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: change circumstances. Could he have adapted to what was going 279 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,439 Speaker 1: to happen to his people, or would it have happened 280 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 1: at all if he'd lived a full life. We're tiptoeing 281 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,920 Speaker 1: around a grand assumption that the timing of his death 282 00:18:38,080 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 1: was an act of mercy from this master of life 283 00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 1: that he served. It's a question no one is qualified 284 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: to answer. But here's really what we're contemplating. Is there 285 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: a realm beyond this one, superintending men's lives. Without a doubt, 286 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: both of these brothers would have said yes, so could 287 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,600 Speaker 1: this master of life have protected to come? So the 288 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: assumption is that he could have. I'm not suggesting for 289 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 1: a second that I know the full scope of the 290 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 1: doctrine of the Shawnees, not at all. But it's clear 291 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:13,520 Speaker 1: two Comesa was no fatalist, and from overwhelming evidence, he 292 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: believed the wilful actions of men could bend the spirit realm, 293 00:19:18,080 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: which then orchestrated the natural realm. And I can get 294 00:19:21,480 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: behind that, taking out any philosophical meanderings. We don't know 295 00:19:26,359 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: why he died, but the cold reality is that his corpse, 296 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 1: absence of his spirit, lay on the banks of the 297 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: Thames River on October five, eighteen thirteen. Two comes His 298 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,680 Speaker 1: passion for his vision of an Indian nation seemed to 299 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,359 Speaker 1: be so resolute it's hard to imagine him dying peacefully 300 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:50,679 Speaker 1: on a Kansas reservation. Here's Dr Edmonds, and we're about 301 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 1: to be set up for a sucker punch. He is 302 00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: an irremarkable man in American history. He is a man 303 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: who has epitomizes want it within the broaderst film of 304 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: American culture, what an ideal Indian person should be. Wait 305 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 1: a minute, what an ideal Indian person should be? Is 306 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: that what he said as in an American being the 307 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,639 Speaker 1: judge of what an ideal person from another culture should 308 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: be based on the things favorable to our worldview. Yeah, 309 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: I think we do that all the time. It would 310 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: be like Russia elizing an American because they exemplified what 311 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,880 Speaker 1: Russia thinks an American should be. Like, it's a mind twister, 312 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: But really, what I'm learning is how complex of a 313 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: story this is to tell. And I'm certain that my 314 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: own biases have clouded the truth even on this here 315 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 1: Burgary's podcast. If you remember, I've been asking from the 316 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: beginning why to Come so was an American hero. We're 317 00:20:55,000 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 1: about to be served a hot plate of gotcha. Now, 318 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 1: Dr Edmunds is going to tell us all the fables 319 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: created about two Come to his legacy that made him 320 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: more palatable to the Americans, and that in some ways 321 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: it was hard to do biography of him because there's 322 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: so much stuff associated with him. For example, there's the 323 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: myth that he fell in love with a white woman, 324 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,679 Speaker 1: Rebecca Galloway supposedly, and he set at her feet and 325 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 1: she read Shakespeare to him. You can see this throughout 326 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,880 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century. All the stuff written about him talks 327 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 1: about this Rebecca Galloway. That is pure hogwash, but it's 328 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 1: it's sort of adds to this image of a man 329 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: and two come to from what we know, was married twice. 330 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,840 Speaker 1: Second time he married an older woman who helped take 331 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: care of his son. He has a son that will 332 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 1: survive him. There are the other one is he's an 333 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: argue's always sometimes pictured his tall, sort of light skinned. 334 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: And there's some one rumor is that his his mother 335 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: was a white captive. Come on, this is trying to 336 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 1: to to lighten him. The classic one is we know, 337 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: for example, he had he had a ring in his 338 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,800 Speaker 1: in his nose and hung down upon his lip. And 339 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 1: the early early pictures, early portraits that we have, our sketches, 340 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,879 Speaker 1: have that on him. But after about ten or fifteen years, 341 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: the white illustrators took it out because it didn't it 342 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,920 Speaker 1: was they thought that denigrated him. Oh. The other one 343 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: that was very big, that he was a member of 344 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: the Masonic lodge. For God's sakes, he was not a Mason. 345 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: But it's but these are nineteenth century stuff that gets 346 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 1: associated with him sort of to build him up, and 347 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,960 Speaker 1: he doesn't need it. He stands on his own. It's 348 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:45,199 Speaker 1: a remarkable man. In today's world, we might call this 349 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: fake news except to make someone look favorable in the fakeness, 350 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: But we're about to see a potential reason that we 351 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 1: wanted him to look good. Here's Robert Morgan directly answering 352 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,199 Speaker 1: the question of why it comes to qualified as an 353 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: American hero. If he's right, the motivations aren't as noble 354 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: as they see. Now, let's see in with the speculation 355 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: on why Decompsy is such a hero to Americans though 356 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: he fought against Americans many times. Well, Americans do admire 357 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: a great warrior. I'm an extremely brave and also a 358 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: great horator. But in my opinion, the reason he's really 359 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: so much admired because he was all those things. It 360 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: was charismatic, handsome, smart, could be friends to Americans, and 361 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 1: but he lost. This tremendous leader who loses so we 362 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 1: can feel good about it. We thought he's a great man, 363 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: but he lost. We beat in So you're a hero. 364 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 1: If you can beat a hero, if you defeat somebody 365 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: who's not a hero, then that's not such a great 366 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 1: accomplishment that we defeated decom Say. You know, there are 367 00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: other Indian heroes, but there's nobody like Decome. Say. Sherman 368 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 1: was named William D. Compsy Sherman. I grew up in 369 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 1: a community where there was a cumpsy shipman. He was 370 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: t cumpsy shipman that the people admired him. You could 371 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,719 Speaker 1: admire him so much because he was a great leader. 372 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: But we beat him, which makes us seem even bigger. 373 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: If you defeat a great man, then you're great. He 374 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 1: appeals to advantage. Oh yeah, I kind of think of 375 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,439 Speaker 1: it like a sports in sports situation, like if you 376 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,480 Speaker 1: have a great rival and you're on this side, if 377 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: that rival beat you, you're it's just you're gonna hate 378 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: him all the worse. But if if you beat that 379 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: guy all of a sudden, you might kind of be like, well, 380 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: you know, they're they're pretty good guys, man, they're great competitors. There, there, this, 381 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: there that. But it's you only feel good about him 382 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:48,199 Speaker 1: because you beat him. Well, Achilles defeats Hector was the 383 00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,159 Speaker 1: greatest warrior the Trojan's ever had. I mean, don't know, 384 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,360 Speaker 1: that's that's really quite an accomplic. You're only as good 385 00:24:53,400 --> 00:25:04,959 Speaker 1: as your opponent. In a young nation hungry for identity, 386 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 1: beating Twokumpsa and elevating him as a national hero made 387 00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: us feel good about ourselves. If you look at our 388 00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,960 Speaker 1: motivations for this admiration that we still have for him today. 389 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: It makes me wonder how close that two coumes so 390 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: we've described on this series really reflects the real two cumpsa. 391 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,399 Speaker 1: Our biases shape our stories. It also makes me wonder 392 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: who is qualified to tell any story at all? And 393 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: from what basis can a human even operate from a 394 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 1: position that lacks bias. That's a big question with a 395 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: tough answer. But I know just the guy to talk 396 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:49,199 Speaker 1: to about two kumsa. Here's Shawnee Chief Ben Barnes. Do 397 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 1: you think we've kind of westernized and turned him into 398 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 1: a hero when he wasn't? I am, but I think 399 00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 1: I think it's been hyper glamorized. And I think if 400 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 1: you go see that play in Ohio, I think it's 401 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 1: it's absolutely terrible because they have it up there and 402 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 1: is a story they've since they've since turned it into 403 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 1: public theater and they have a stage. And so we've 404 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,000 Speaker 1: done that with Mu Tacum. So you know, we've created 405 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: a We've created a figure that's just not representative of 406 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: the man who he was. Have you been to the 407 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: National Portrait Gallery in d C. You should go. They 408 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 1: have a they have a statue of two comes in 409 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: marble and he's slain and he's laying there in either 410 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: alabaster or marble, and it looks very Greco Roman. It's like, 411 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 1: what you know, It's just it's that kind of you know, 412 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: myth making, so out of after the Civil War, the 413 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: country as a whole started dealing in myth making in 414 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 1: eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties. You know, the some remember 415 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: of the past never was. I have a book if 416 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: you're somewhere Katrina Phillips uh staging indigenuity. She coins a 417 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: term called postalgia, so it's a no nostalgia for things 418 00:26:55,720 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: that never were. I love that phrase. Fau stylegia, fa stalgia, 419 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:06,879 Speaker 1: who pstalgia belonging for a past that didn't exist? Do 420 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: I do this? Do you do that? I bet you do. 421 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: I probably don't, lute. I recently read an essay from 422 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 1: Southern history author Dan Carter. He's extensively interviewed people about 423 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: race relations in the South his whole life. I want 424 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: to read a single paragraph from his essay, called Shattered Pieces, 425 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:41,239 Speaker 1: Living and Writing Southern History. It startled me as I 426 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 1: listened to my interviewees described the events of those years. 427 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: I recognized the great chasm between their recollections and what 428 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 1: I knew to be true, And with each interview I 429 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,320 Speaker 1: learned an important lesson about memory. It's not simply what 430 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: we forget. The more fundamental problem is that we constantly 431 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,840 Speaker 1: recreate memory so that our past can live comfortably with 432 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: the present, without the jar and dissonances that inevitably a 433 00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: company changed through time. Like Shakespeare's monster Caliban. We drift 434 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 1: into reveries of the past that is so comforting that 435 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: when we awake we cry to dream again, no wonder. 436 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 1: Oliver Goldsmith called memory that fond deceiver. End of quote. 437 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. I want to talk for a second about 438 00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 1: my reporting on two Coomesa. I'm certain my own biases 439 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: have influenced the way that I've perceived him. Maybe the 440 00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: lack of actual facts, whether they've disintegrated through time or 441 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: whether they were just simply not recorded. Our image of 442 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: the man today is certainly veiled. However, we have wrestled 443 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 1: with the data points we have, and we've told this 444 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: story to the best of our ability. It's wild to 445 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: think about how in a little over two years, just 446 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 1: two into revolutions around the sun can make history so 447 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,960 Speaker 1: hard to understand how much more the ancient folsome bison 448 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 1: hunters or humans even deeper in history than that compared 449 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 1: to them. Two comes to is a very modern man. 450 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 1: But what an enigma he still is. Maybe Grantlee Buffalo 451 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: got it right with his mysterious nonsensical lyrics in the 452 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: Last Days It comes to Song. Here's more from Chief 453 00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: Ben Barnes described to me how two comes to in 454 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:37,479 Speaker 1: his legacy life leadership for the Shanny Nation. Would how 455 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: do you view him today? Who? Who? Who is he? 456 00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: To you? Does he stand out? You know, he's he's 457 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: this one leader that we've kind of cherry picked out 458 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,000 Speaker 1: to talk about in highlight? Is that the way? Would 459 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 1: you view him as a significant leader in the shawn 460 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: I definitely view him as a significant leader. I think 461 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: people are a little overweight fixated on him because there's 462 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 1: also black hoof cornstock, blue jacket, a host of others. 463 00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: There's an unknown woman in the pages of history, and 464 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: upon Shawnee's arrival into Oklahoma and the forcing of allotments 465 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: on her people, she became a prophet and that of 466 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,800 Speaker 1: a religious movement and nearly militarized the Shawnee people and 467 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: other tribes of Oklahoma to rise up against Indian agents. 468 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: So there's almost an uprising. History didn't even bother to 469 00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 1: record her name, and so here she is leading a 470 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: religious movement that's as fundamental and it speaks to the 471 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: heart of people as much as it comes his time. 472 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: So is he important, absolutely, But he also you know, 473 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: he is in a long line. He's a Shawnny heroes. 474 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,240 Speaker 1: He's a product of those. He's standing on the shoulders 475 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: of other giants and he's not standing on that shoulder alone. 476 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: He has his brother tin squad the way with him. 477 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: You know, he was a man that lived within a 478 00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: Shawnee community that whenever his people gathered to go worship, 479 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: he would have been one of those people. He wouldn't 480 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: have been set apart. And if you watch those men 481 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: file file in to their traditional place of worship, you 482 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:03,719 Speaker 1: wouldn't even be able to pick him out which one 483 00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:06,400 Speaker 1: he was. He wouldn't be at the necessarily be at 484 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,479 Speaker 1: the head of the line, he wouldn't necessarily be at 485 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,240 Speaker 1: the back of the line. He would occupy the space 486 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: that they needed him for that day. So what they 487 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,080 Speaker 1: needed in that day is they needed somebody to say, 488 00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,959 Speaker 1: you know, these these policies of our past are not working. 489 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: It's time to take up arms. It's time to lead 490 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: this Pan Indiana revolution. That was what he believed. So 491 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 1: that's who he was. He was a product of his time. 492 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: Tell me if this is right that what I'm hearing 493 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: you say about two Coomesa. It's kind of like that 494 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: sentence that what's important is what happened, not who did it? Yeah, 495 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:39,640 Speaker 1: And also to put him in their context is this 496 00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: is their communities, the products of their communities. And also 497 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,520 Speaker 1: so you you don't you It's it's like you're saying, 498 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,480 Speaker 1: you're not saying, don't give credit to two Comesa, but 499 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 1: you're saying it's got to be viewed inside a community. 500 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: And that's a that's a bizarre thing for a Western 501 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: thinker to think about. I had a friend call it radical, 502 00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: and so that's a radical way of thinking about things. 503 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: But really it's true of all of us, isn't it. 504 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: Didn't you the things your mom, dad, and uncles all 505 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 1: do you do? These things exactly use an individual? How 506 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: much that it was really you, I mean, and not 507 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: them setting you up for those successes. That's a great 508 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: example of the world view of the Shawnee versus even 509 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: what I'm trying to do inside of telling this story, 510 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: I mean, and that's why I came to you, is 511 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: because I wanted to to see how you would view 512 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: this guy. And every time I ask you about him, 513 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,240 Speaker 1: you keep bringing it back to the community and back 514 00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,239 Speaker 1: to what he actually did and how he wouldn't have 515 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,640 Speaker 1: stood out. Which that's so interesting to me because when 516 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: I heard about two come so, I wanted to make 517 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 1: him like this hero that just stood above everybody. And 518 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: that's not what you're saying, no very much. So he's 519 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: a man, and you know the he has many He 520 00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 1: probably made as many mistakes as he does successes. He 521 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: was a product of his time. Westerners typically defined great 522 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: us by difference. This man was great because he was 523 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: so different. He was heading shoulders above others. He stood out. 524 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: The Shawnees would have been more focused on the verbs 525 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: the action, rather than the noun the name the person. 526 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: Remember our language lesson from episode two. What got done 527 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 1: was more important than who did it. Westerners want a 528 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: hero to make a granted statue out of, and the 529 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: Shawnees wanted a homeland nation of their own, and they 530 00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: didn't care who stepped up to make it happen. Perhaps 531 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 1: that's an exaggeration, but that's what I'm hearing the chief say. 532 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 1: Here's his answer of a very tough question. Do you 533 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 1: view two Kumsa as successful and what he did? Because 534 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: at an external level you would say he wasn't successful 535 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: because it didn't happen the way he wanted it to. 536 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know if a Canadian would say that. Okay, 537 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 1: imagine that spine that was shown there, and that the 538 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: battle attempts and when they said okay, British retreated but 539 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 1: not us, today's the day we die? And who won 540 00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: the War of eighteen twelve? We don't teach that American 541 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: studies for a reason. Canadians were very Canadian about it. 542 00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 1: Derect Okay, let's go back to the borders the way 543 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,839 Speaker 1: they were. There have been some other country. New York 544 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 1: State would be all Canadian. So you know they won 545 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: that warm So was his efforts unsuccessful? I don't know 546 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,800 Speaker 1: Canada one. And he threw in with Canadians in the British, 547 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 1: so he may have died in that war, but I 548 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,520 Speaker 1: would think Canadians would would argue otherwise that he's certainly 549 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:33,720 Speaker 1: not a failure, and I think this entity that's become 550 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,280 Speaker 1: our memory of two coomes to I think that also 551 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 1: still has some value for any people as a way 552 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,239 Speaker 1: to look up to. That's like, Okay, okay, this is 553 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: a larger than my figure. But if I can just 554 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: remember that he was just a man, that just a 555 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: man or just a woman can do incredible acts. Is 556 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: that individuals matter. Individuals matter. That's good. I now want 557 00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: to talk with him about the history of the Shawnee, 558 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,880 Speaker 1: and that's going to help us understand the current context 559 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,520 Speaker 1: of the modern Shawnee Nation. It could feel like we're 560 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: going backwards, but we're not. Here's Chief Ben Barnes talking 561 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:12,120 Speaker 1: about the importance of understanding the different tribes as separate 562 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: entities and an example of what makes a Shawnee a Shawnee. 563 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,799 Speaker 1: So I think one of the examples that I like 564 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: to use is I think every American, at least intuitively 565 00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:27,399 Speaker 1: that's at some level, understands that Ireland and Italians are 566 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 1: completely different countries, completely different cultures. But if you look 567 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: at the distance overland, it's really not that far. At 568 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: the distance between Ireland and Italy, well, here in the 569 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 1: United States, we're talking about tribal nations. And if I 570 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: was talking about the Shawnees and Pawnees, people say, oh, 571 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,280 Speaker 1: those those must be similar because the names are similar. 572 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:45,280 Speaker 1: Well if they don't understand that tribes are very much different. 573 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: There were as different from each other as the Italians 574 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:50,600 Speaker 1: are from the Irish. And they think that everybody living 575 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: in one area is going to be very similar. Well, 576 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,279 Speaker 1: that's not true for Shawnee people. You know, we had 577 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: very We were very peculiar in the way that our 578 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: communities were formed. We didn't have like one elected big 579 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: man that everybody followed, right, and that that big man 580 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,040 Speaker 1: terminology I think comes from anthropology. So it was a community. 581 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 1: The community would set apart people that had had shown 582 00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,239 Speaker 1: particular wisdom generally were older, and those older folks would 583 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: guide the hands of what appeared to people on the 584 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,240 Speaker 1: outside of being chiefs leaders. These guys are just speakers. 585 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: Speakers on behalf of those old folks of those wise 586 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,800 Speaker 1: and leaders. So that's one aspect. So the so the 587 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: organized structure of leadership would have been different unique to 588 00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: the Shawnees, and that they didn't have leaders. They did 589 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 1: have a point of leaders, but they could be torn 590 00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,279 Speaker 1: down at a Moment's notice that if somebody tried to 591 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: act unilaterally without going back to the community and having 592 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: a community involved in those decisions. So would there be 593 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 1: other Native American tribes that would have had what we 594 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,399 Speaker 1: would perceive as just a chief that was I don't 595 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: think it's I think it's more nuanced than that, because 596 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 1: like when we talk about Cherokees, with the modern day 597 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,160 Speaker 1: thing that you think of as Cherokees or Shawnee is 598 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 1: not like it was back then, and so well, I 599 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,239 Speaker 1: can't speak as much about therap particular histories or any 600 00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 1: of those tribes in this region. I think we have 601 00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:11,799 Speaker 1: to understand that that they're much more nuanced that some 602 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:13,839 Speaker 1: of these some of the ways that they had came 603 00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: together were because of incursions by Europeans into their their territories. 604 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 1: So groups would come together and co esced into confederacies 605 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 1: like you see amongst the Miskogeans speaking people's. But for 606 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: Shawnee people, we had always kind of been scattered apart 607 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: from each other. The only thing that I can compare 608 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: it to for some Americans that they can relate to 609 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,799 Speaker 1: is like a Jewish diaspora. So I may I may 610 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: live in Los Angeles. But how I go into Jewish synagogue. 611 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 1: I'm at home, right, I know what's going on. I 612 00:37:43,160 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: know how to act, know how to be people to 613 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: who identify as me as you know, as Jewish, I 614 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 1: fellow worshiper. So for Shawnee people, they can move. But 615 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:53,439 Speaker 1: we lived across twenty historic states, more than twenty US 616 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:58,680 Speaker 1: historic states. We had treaties with France, England, Spain, and 617 00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: later it was with Mexico or even Republic of Texas 618 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:04,360 Speaker 1: and of course United States. Groups of people of racial 619 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 1: types don't engage in treaty making processes. Uses the Shawnee 620 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,760 Speaker 1: Nation is engaged in making treaties with Spain, making treaties 621 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:16,280 Speaker 1: with Europeans to carve out spaces for you know where 622 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 1: these European activities can occur. What what does tribal sovereignty mean? Well, 623 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,239 Speaker 1: since you say asked that question, allow me to proselytize 624 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,480 Speaker 1: you into the Good Word or the United Nations Declaration 625 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, where we've codified what we believe, 626 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,399 Speaker 1: what we think is inherent to our people's that these 627 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,200 Speaker 1: things have pre existed, nations coming and arriving on these shores, 628 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,120 Speaker 1: that we believe that these principles are enshrined in our 629 00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: very nature of sovereignty, that we have the rights that 630 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: the other nations do. I was at the United Nations 631 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,680 Speaker 1: Permanent Form of Indigenous People's earlier this year, and as 632 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:53,359 Speaker 1: I was walking by looking at the various nations from 633 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: around the world, it was like a fifth of those 634 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,799 Speaker 1: nations had a lower GDP than the Cherokee Nation and 635 00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 1: the Seminole tribe. It's like, how is that? How come 636 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,800 Speaker 1: they have a seat there whenever check Nation and similar 637 00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: nations have a bigger GDP. So it just, you know, 638 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 1: it's it's kind of baffling. It's kind of baffling that 639 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 1: they built the United Nations not for us or for 640 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 1: our inclusion. But it's like so it's like, okay, we see, 641 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:14,920 Speaker 1: I see how this is. But it's very strange to 642 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,799 Speaker 1: me that, so do you feel like you don't have 643 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,880 Speaker 1: the functional sovereignty that you want. I think that sovereignty 644 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 1: will always be a push pool. I think I think 645 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:28,520 Speaker 1: that we live in a very interesting time. There's some 646 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 1: advantages right now if I think that tribal nations can 647 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:34,399 Speaker 1: take advantage of People are watching Rutherford Falls and they're 648 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,520 Speaker 1: seeing messages being delivered on conversations that we've only dreamed 649 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,440 Speaker 1: about talking about publicly, and they're having them in the 650 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 1: open to millions of viewers. People are excited about Reservation Dogs, 651 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,040 Speaker 1: and they're binging the first two episodes this very week. 652 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,720 Speaker 1: We have dark Winds. So we have all these native 653 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,320 Speaker 1: productions that are coming out, and some of these Native productions, 654 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 1: like the one being done Stirring har Joe and Takawaiti 655 00:39:58,480 --> 00:40:02,320 Speaker 1: down to craft services, it's indigenous people's making this film. 656 00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:06,880 Speaker 1: The gaffers, everybody on the film set, writers all Indigenous. 657 00:40:06,880 --> 00:40:11,320 Speaker 1: So we sit in this juncture where we have Native 658 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 1: people's occupying the cultural hegemony that Americans always wanted us 659 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,440 Speaker 1: to have. Really, they want these stories, but now we 660 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,240 Speaker 1: get to be once telling them it's not Kevin Costner, 661 00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: it's not Avatar, because Avatar's basically dance at the Wolves. 662 00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,319 Speaker 1: Are am I right? It's it's yeah, it dances at 663 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 1: the Wolves in space, So it's really a West It's 664 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 1: really think about that. One's a little bit over my head. 665 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: You're watching Dances of the Wolves and then watch your Avatar, 666 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: same movie, same movie. Yeah, and that's a conversation Indian 667 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:39,239 Speaker 1: people are having the rest of the world's not, but 668 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 1: when you watch it you'll see them, right, Okay, and 669 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: uh so having these conversations front and center, now people 670 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 1: are like, I see, I get it now, I get 671 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: what the issues are. Are starting to understand some of 672 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,799 Speaker 1: the issues. Or when an end joke happens on rather 673 00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 1: for false and you're like, what's that about? What's an 674 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:57,600 Speaker 1: in joke? And they go and they look it up 675 00:40:57,600 --> 00:40:59,839 Speaker 1: on Google and oh, that's it, that's what that is. 676 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,280 Speaker 1: Were the one with the They burned out the owl 677 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 1: on Reservation Dogs the prior season and I think this 678 00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,799 Speaker 1: season two and the most recent episode, they blurred out 679 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,080 Speaker 1: the owl, which is a cultural joke that folks from 680 00:41:10,120 --> 00:41:13,160 Speaker 1: certain certain woodland cultures house seeing an owl can be 681 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,040 Speaker 1: bad luck in certain instances. Okay, they blurred him out, 682 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 1: They blurred out. They burreed him out, you know I 683 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:19,959 Speaker 1: like to do. And like if somebody's naked on the screen, 684 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,600 Speaker 1: they're burned out the owl that same way they pixelated, 685 00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: so it's an inside We're not gonna look at that. 686 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: So they blurted out for television, which is hysterical. So 687 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:32,320 Speaker 1: we have an opportunity to tell native stories and you know, 688 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 1: I'm glad that Taiko y t T used his opportunity 689 00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 1: as an indigenous person from from New Zealand, as a 690 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:41,640 Speaker 1: Maori person, to leverage that for a situation here and 691 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:43,279 Speaker 1: here in the United States and in the rest of 692 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: North America to create films about us for us. So, 693 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: as a child of the eighties, I remember Cool Jay 694 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,440 Speaker 1: in a commercial and he had foodboo gear on. So 695 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,720 Speaker 1: for us, by us. You know nothing about us without 696 00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:59,239 Speaker 1: us or doing things with not for you know, you 697 00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 1: need to do things with us, not for so in 698 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,279 Speaker 1: a lot of this academic scholarship, it's being written. You know. 699 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,600 Speaker 1: That's why when you said you wanted to come here today, 700 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:09,759 Speaker 1: we're like, heck yeah, because a lot of people have 701 00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 1: the podcast and never never even come to visit Shawney people. 702 00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 1: I think we're all grateful for the Chief's willingness to 703 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: talk to us. You know, I gave him a jar 704 00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,799 Speaker 1: of bear grease as a token of my appreciation, and 705 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,800 Speaker 1: I told him with all sincerity that I would supply 706 00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:29,000 Speaker 1: him with bear grease for life, which in my world 707 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 1: is amongst the greatest gestures of friendship. And I meant it. 708 00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:36,400 Speaker 1: And if for some reason in the future, I'm unable 709 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 1: to personally feel their bear grease needs. I'll be relying 710 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:42,759 Speaker 1: on some of you to help me fulfill my vow. 711 00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 1: Here's the Chief talking about one of his biggest initiatives, 712 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 1: preservation of the Shawnee language. We are very fortunate. For 713 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,120 Speaker 1: a long time, you know, we were a tribe without 714 00:42:56,360 --> 00:42:59,279 Speaker 1: without much in the ways of financial means. You know, 715 00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,239 Speaker 1: we did not have a lot of money. Was what 716 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:03,480 Speaker 1: kept us together was our language, our culture, and our 717 00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,719 Speaker 1: religion and our sense of identity. And so we still 718 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,920 Speaker 1: have our ancestral religion that still exists. We're really lucky 719 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 1: we still have language speakers. So it's not good. The 720 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:16,960 Speaker 1: situation is not good for any tribal language across the 721 00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: United States, just because that's the way it is across 722 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:23,719 Speaker 1: the entire planet. Every two weeks language dies. So every 723 00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:27,239 Speaker 1: two weeks somewhere on the global native language dies. There's 724 00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 1: about six thousand languages has been spoken right now, and 725 00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,400 Speaker 1: I think by the end of the century they predict 726 00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:33,400 Speaker 1: will be just down to a couple of hundred. So 727 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 1: one of those weeks will be ours if we don't 728 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,879 Speaker 1: do anything. So when I become chief, just right before 729 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 1: the global pandemic. First thing we did was declare state 730 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,839 Speaker 1: of emergency for Shawnee language. The second thing we did 731 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:47,760 Speaker 1: is we had adopted the UNESCO's International Year of Indigenous 732 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,880 Speaker 1: Languages and so that we tasked our team too. We 733 00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 1: created the International Year of Shawnee Language, asked them to 734 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,279 Speaker 1: create a decade long plan to restore and revive our 735 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,240 Speaker 1: language and get more, get more fluent speakers because it 736 00:43:59,920 --> 00:44:02,279 Speaker 1: was it was dying. It was the only people. The 737 00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 1: only speakers we had were elderly people. And so subsequently 738 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 1: we adopted the UNESCO International Decade of Indigenous Languages. We 739 00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: adopted that and out of that we created a tenure 740 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,440 Speaker 1: plan to save our languages. As of a January or 741 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,520 Speaker 1: earlier this year, what amount of four percent of the 742 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,200 Speaker 1: tribes population was enrolled in a language program. So and 743 00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:26,440 Speaker 1: we had created UH. We created a host of new 744 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,000 Speaker 1: volunteer teachers. They were there really community language activists. As 745 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:34,680 Speaker 1: for what they really are, the language is everything. And 746 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 1: like we said before, it's believed less than two fifty 747 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:42,040 Speaker 1: people on planet Earth currently speak Shawnee. It was once 748 00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,680 Speaker 1: the trade language of the Ohio River Valley. Indians from 749 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,920 Speaker 1: other tribes spoke Shawnee to maintain relevance and trade the 750 00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 1: greatest orator potentially in American history. Two Compsa spoke Shawnee 751 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,960 Speaker 1: as his native tongue. Boone and Simon Kenton spoke quite 752 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,720 Speaker 1: a bit of Shawnee. This language is important to American history. 753 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:07,480 Speaker 1: Here's a big question for the chief. What what is 754 00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:11,319 Speaker 1: the big picture of what you, as the chief of 755 00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:15,320 Speaker 1: the Shawnees is trying to do inside of two inside 756 00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 1: of this country. You know, we hear about the plights 757 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 1: of these other ethnic groups inside the country that are 758 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 1: at the forefront of media and stuff. What do you 759 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,040 Speaker 1: guys trying to do? So I had a seventh grade 760 00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:29,239 Speaker 1: asked me that question, and it was he asked me 761 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:30,640 Speaker 1: a question, but not in that way. It was a 762 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,760 Speaker 1: sometimes because of COVID, we haven't done a lot outreach. 763 00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:36,520 Speaker 1: And this past year, you know, he was like, we're 764 00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,880 Speaker 1: going to have to start back our outreach into communities. 765 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:43,640 Speaker 1: So we visited a school. It was seventh grade class, 766 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:48,920 Speaker 1: and he asked, is what's your job? Wow, that's that's 767 00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:52,360 Speaker 1: a stinct way to ask what you just asked? Yeah, 768 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:53,839 Speaker 1: And he said what's your job? And I was like, Wow, 769 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:55,759 Speaker 1: no one's ever put it that way, and so I 770 00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:57,680 Speaker 1: actually it took me back and I thought, man, this 771 00:45:57,719 --> 00:45:59,799 Speaker 1: is why I needed more of these grade school of 772 00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,960 Speaker 1: because they asked some really no filters, and they ask 773 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:07,200 Speaker 1: really sharp questions because they don't have any assumptions, and 774 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,040 Speaker 1: I had to explain them and even to myself. Really, 775 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:13,520 Speaker 1: my job is to undo the effects of our removal. 776 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:18,080 Speaker 1: That's my job. So that means the wealth of the tribe, 777 00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:20,759 Speaker 1: find ways to restore that land of the tribe, findal 778 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,840 Speaker 1: ways restore that to protect and be a warrior for 779 00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:27,640 Speaker 1: our language, to make sure that our culture survives for 780 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,239 Speaker 1: another millennia. To make sure that you know what we 781 00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:33,319 Speaker 1: are as a people. These sovereign rights, these national rights 782 00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,120 Speaker 1: that we have that we had prior to the United States, 783 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,120 Speaker 1: that we prior had prior encountering the Spanish, French, and English, 784 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,960 Speaker 1: that those are those remain secured. So we spent a 785 00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:45,920 Speaker 1: lot of time on the road at state capitals, We 786 00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:48,279 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time in d C. And some 787 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,759 Speaker 1: of it is educational work, some of its lobbying work. 788 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 1: Some of it is advocacy for issues to getting to 789 00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,000 Speaker 1: legislative trying to get some legislation started on some issues, 790 00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,360 Speaker 1: So that's part of the work, but it's also a 791 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:03,480 Speaker 1: building community and truly because of what's happened to our people, 792 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:07,279 Speaker 1: the diaspora that happened in our removal, it's finding new 793 00:47:07,320 --> 00:47:10,080 Speaker 1: ways for people to connect as a community because as 794 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,800 Speaker 1: we talked about earlier communities, the core, it's at the 795 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:17,480 Speaker 1: center of the language. So that that removal just broke 796 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,799 Speaker 1: down the culture. It was damaging. It did not destroy it, 797 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,960 Speaker 1: because it's did that. It existed in a chrysalis of 798 00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:26,200 Speaker 1: sorts because we were removed and then we were sent 799 00:47:26,239 --> 00:47:29,440 Speaker 1: to Kansas. Then we're from Kansas. We were the loyal Shawnees, 800 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,239 Speaker 1: fought for the Union, sent it an a territory to 801 00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,160 Speaker 1: live amongst Cherokees, who we just got done fighting. They 802 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:37,560 Speaker 1: were they were part of the Confederacy. So that was 803 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:40,359 Speaker 1: I'm sure that was interesting times. But because of that, 804 00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:44,080 Speaker 1: it almost became like a rural ghetto right for Shawny 805 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:47,320 Speaker 1: people because we didn't speak Cherokee, we didn't worship Cherokee, 806 00:47:47,360 --> 00:47:50,160 Speaker 1: we worked Cherokee. But we're living amongst the center Cherokees. 807 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:52,200 Speaker 1: So what did we have to do other than cleveland 808 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,640 Speaker 1: to each other. So you know, that community became almost 809 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:59,360 Speaker 1: I don't say an amber, but very much a cloistered community, 810 00:47:59,520 --> 00:48:02,520 Speaker 1: I say, and that helped preserve it ironically and almost 811 00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,400 Speaker 1: destroyed it once, Uh, the nineteen sixties and seventies, when 812 00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:07,160 Speaker 1: you saw a lot of people, you know, moving on 813 00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:09,920 Speaker 1: into moving into a lot of urban and suburban communities 814 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:13,400 Speaker 1: to take jobs. So now we've seen that revitalization. So 815 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:17,440 Speaker 1: what what does a Shawnee nation look like that you 816 00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,200 Speaker 1: would see and would want and would be happy with. 817 00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:22,560 Speaker 1: We have citizens that live in fifty states where the 818 00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:25,440 Speaker 1: Shawnee Tribe of everywhere. We have sister tribes in Eastern 819 00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,839 Speaker 1: Shawnee Tribe Oklahoma and the Absentutee Shawnee Tribe Oklahoma. But 820 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,880 Speaker 1: we live in fifty states. And so what I would 821 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:33,640 Speaker 1: like is I would like for them to feel like 822 00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:35,960 Speaker 1: they're connecting no matter how far away they are, but 823 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:37,799 Speaker 1: they know that they know that there's a home, that 824 00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,279 Speaker 1: there's always been a home, and it's our tradition that 825 00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:43,279 Speaker 1: they're always known that it's home. So that noma and 826 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:46,279 Speaker 1: also you know, to reinstill that idea that the k 827 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:53,600 Speaker 1: Bikolita and Michael Jake, these are the traditional divisions of 828 00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:58,200 Speaker 1: the Shawnee Tribe like families. Inside of a family, that idea, 829 00:48:58,320 --> 00:49:00,759 Speaker 1: you know, you may feel that you're little different than 830 00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,000 Speaker 1: those others. That you may have different political ideologies, you 831 00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,440 Speaker 1: may have different ideas on certain types of freedoms that 832 00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:09,680 Speaker 1: you think you can get, that you should do you 833 00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:11,400 Speaker 1: have for the United States. But we're all part of 834 00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,200 Speaker 1: the same community. That we're not separate, We're not a 835 00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:17,040 Speaker 1: part were one. And I think that's a message that 836 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:21,960 Speaker 1: Americans can learn from the Shawnees today. I've learned a 837 00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:25,440 Speaker 1: lot in this series, not just historic data about a 838 00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:28,560 Speaker 1: man's life, but we've been able to peer into an 839 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:32,160 Speaker 1: ancient culture. But maybe more importantly, I feel like I 840 00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:35,960 Speaker 1: have a greater understanding of the personal stress inflicted on 841 00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:40,280 Speaker 1: the individuals in a society in a crisis. A story 842 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,960 Speaker 1: is always told from a certain point of occupancy, and 843 00:49:44,040 --> 00:49:46,959 Speaker 1: I am not a Shawnee, but I've tried to lean 844 00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:50,040 Speaker 1: in hard into understanding what it would have been like 845 00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:54,000 Speaker 1: to be one during that time. With all our fancy technology, 846 00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:56,759 Speaker 1: we can't alter the past. All we can do is 847 00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:01,520 Speaker 1: look to the future with the knowledge of what happened before. Honestly, 848 00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,799 Speaker 1: I hope we'd come away with a new understanding for 849 00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:09,200 Speaker 1: how deeply complex the situation was in a genuine empathy, 850 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:13,879 Speaker 1: producing positive action towards indigenous peoples and the things they 851 00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:19,480 Speaker 1: view as important to them. In modern times, when these 852 00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:23,360 Speaker 1: series come to a close, I often find myself in 853 00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:27,560 Speaker 1: a state of melancholy. Probably never again in my life 854 00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:31,920 Speaker 1: will I be as mentally and emotionally engaged in this story. 855 00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:35,000 Speaker 1: The life of this man t comes to a man 856 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:37,279 Speaker 1: who I did not know. We don't even have a 857 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,560 Speaker 1: real picture of him. There are no audio recordings of 858 00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,640 Speaker 1: his voice. But I feel like I was there and 859 00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:47,160 Speaker 1: saw the panther comet cross the sky when two Comsa 860 00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,960 Speaker 1: was born about two arrow flights south of the village. 861 00:50:51,560 --> 00:50:54,000 Speaker 1: I felt his depression when he broke his leg and 862 00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:57,320 Speaker 1: acquired the limp that he believed would make him useless 863 00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:00,600 Speaker 1: in war. I felt his courage when he toood against 864 00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:04,520 Speaker 1: the trend, admonishing those around him not to torture prisoners. 865 00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:08,880 Speaker 1: I felt his grief when he lost his father, his leaders, 866 00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,399 Speaker 1: and his brother to war. I felt his anger when 867 00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,920 Speaker 1: the treaties were broken in the boundary lines were crossed. 868 00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,799 Speaker 1: I felt the passion of his brother's vision of the 869 00:51:18,840 --> 00:51:21,920 Speaker 1: Master of life, and the inspiration that it gave to 870 00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:26,600 Speaker 1: their people. I felt his strength when he spoke with articulation, 871 00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:30,160 Speaker 1: power and authority on the destiny of their Indian nation 872 00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:35,560 Speaker 1: and land. And I felt a sultry sadness beyond justifiable 873 00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:39,800 Speaker 1: rationale when I learned how he was killed, his body 874 00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:44,760 Speaker 1: desecrated and buried in a mass grave. Of these things 875 00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:47,640 Speaker 1: I do not know their resolution or if it is 876 00:51:47,680 --> 00:51:50,960 Speaker 1: possible to amend the wrongs of a path so long ago. 877 00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:54,879 Speaker 1: Though he was a flogged man just like us, he 878 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,080 Speaker 1: wasn't Deity come to Earth. But in the words of 879 00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:02,400 Speaker 1: Chief Ben Barnes, he is just a man who occupied 880 00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:06,200 Speaker 1: the space that his people needed him for that day, 881 00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,160 Speaker 1: and because of that, I have deep respect for the 882 00:52:10,239 --> 00:52:30,920 Speaker 1: man to come. So I can't thank you enough for 883 00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:35,400 Speaker 1: listening to Bear Greece. If you've enjoyed this series, share 884 00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:38,960 Speaker 1: it with a friend, save us review on iTunes, do 885 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,400 Speaker 1: all the silly stuff and all this podcasters asked everyone 886 00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,799 Speaker 1: to get. I hope you have a great week, and 887 00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:49,240 Speaker 1: I look forward to talking this over with the folks 888 00:52:49,400 --> 00:53:07,120 Speaker 1: on the Render next week. M We well, what's the 889 00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:26,040 Speaker 1: next time? M