1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,599 Speaker 1: The thing that's funny about TikTok is that it even 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: makes it twenty two year old feel old. Here's Ameliana Via. 3 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:10,039 Speaker 1: When I first downloaded the app, I posted a video 4 00:00:10,119 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: of me like dancing in the club, like set some music. Um, 5 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:16,759 Speaker 1: and then I get a comment like five minutes after 6 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:19,480 Speaker 1: I posted. In the comment it's like yes, like teach 7 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:21,239 Speaker 1: me your skills or something. And I go to the 8 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:23,479 Speaker 1: page and it's like a little girl like she looks 9 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: like eleven years old. Um. Yeah, And I was like, okay, 10 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: so this is really like a kid's app. Like people 11 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: aren't lying when they say that, and looking at an 12 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: eleven year old dancing in her bedroom on TikTok felt wrong. 13 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: I mean I didn't feel creepy. It felt creepy like 14 00:00:40,240 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: looking at their stuff because I feel like I'm not 15 00:00:41,960 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: the audience for it, and it's a little weird that 16 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: it's so public. Amiliano isn't the only young person to 17 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,200 Speaker 1: tell me that he felt protective of kids on the app. Yeah. 18 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: I would not recommend like a young child a me 19 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: app unless they have like parents supervision. That's Katie Pheeney. 20 00:00:59,120 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: We heard from her in a previous episode. She's eighteen 21 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: years old and spends about four hours a day on TikTok. 22 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: But her message to the kids play outside more. I 23 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: feel like when I was ten years old or nine 24 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:14,640 Speaker 1: years old, I was playing outside, and I feel like 25 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: now like these kids are cursing and they're doing super 26 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: like sexy dances, and I just I can't watch it. 27 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh no, please, don't do that. Go right 28 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: a bike. And there's some corners of the app that 29 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,680 Speaker 1: a number of teens say are worth worrying about. Here's 30 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:37,960 Speaker 1: nineteen year old Mila Dilatore. There was a lot of 31 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:42,400 Speaker 1: weird stuff about like eating disorders. There was there was 32 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: a bunch of really stupid, like disgusting trends on TikTok 33 00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: of like really underage kids. It's just like, it's such 34 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: a scary thing, I think for kids, like fourteen year 35 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: olds to be on TikTok because there's such disgusting stuff 36 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,080 Speaker 1: on there. So it's not just a bunch of old 37 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: people that are concerned about TikTok. Even the kids are 38 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: asking are the kids all right? Because for all the 39 00:02:04,240 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: funny memes, dance routines and silly lip sinking videos, there's 40 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: a dark side to TikTok, and it starts with a 41 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 1: young children that have been on the app from its 42 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,959 Speaker 1: very start. You're listening to Foundering. I'm your host, Shelley 43 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:22,359 Speaker 1: Banjo a word of morning. This episode contains some very 44 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: sad and disturbing information, including stories about the sexual exploitation 45 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: of miners. And I did want to mention that I 46 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: pressed TikTok at least five times to interview someone in 47 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 1: charge of child safety. The company declined to make anyone available, 48 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 1: but they did give us a number of comments, which 49 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 1: will include throughout this episode, starting with the statement TikTok 50 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 1: is deeply committed to the safety of miners. So up 51 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:51,680 Speaker 1: until now, we've been telling you the story of TikTok's 52 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: explosive growth and how it took Silicon Valley and Hollywood 53 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,560 Speaker 1: by surprise. TikTok was able to achieve this success by 54 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 1: taking a number of shortcuts. One of them was letting kids, 55 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:08,640 Speaker 1: even kids under thirteen, roam free on their app. That 56 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 1: led to a firestorm among parents, police departments, and lawmakers 57 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 1: that hurt TikTok's reputation just as it was hitting it 58 00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: big in the US. We'll tell you more after a 59 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: quick Break. TikTok's problems with young children actually began years 60 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: before TikTok even existed. It goes all the way back 61 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: to when TikTok was still called Musically. When the Musically 62 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: app first started getting popular, investors called it the world's 63 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 1: youngest social network because it's audience included kids in elementary school. 64 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,560 Speaker 1: At the time, Disney songs were popular in the apps 65 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: music library, and unlike Instagram and YouTube, Musically didn't prompt 66 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,920 Speaker 1: users to disclose their ages. Here's Josh Constein speaking with 67 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: Musically's founder, Alex jew at a conference in Josh was 68 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: a journalist at tech Crunch. So I'm a little bit 69 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,599 Speaker 1: terrified because some of the kids that I see on 70 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: this app seem extremely young. I mean it's not just 71 00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: under thirteen or not just thirteen year olds, which are 72 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: actually allowed on most services like Facebook and Instagram, but 73 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,599 Speaker 1: kids that look like they're eleven nine, seven years old. 74 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,720 Speaker 1: And these are kids with millions of followers, and some 75 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: of them are acting quite provocatively. Most social media companies 76 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,039 Speaker 1: draw the line at thirteen years old to avoid running 77 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: a foul of a federal law called Kappa that's the 78 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,960 Speaker 1: children's online Privacy Protection Act KAPPA limits how much information 79 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,359 Speaker 1: apps can collect from kids under thirteen. It's one of 80 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: the only federal laws in the US that protects kids online. 81 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 1: It's meant to keep them away from sexual predators and 82 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: others who might have suppoitt them. Does musically abide by 83 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 1: the Child Online Privacy Protection Room? Absolutely? How do you 84 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 1: guys abide by that? Because you don't. You don't ask 85 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: users for their age, right, So that's actually uh compliant 86 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: with the regulation, that's not that's feigning ignorance though. Right 87 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: Alex is on stage and meaning he intentionally didn't ask 88 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 1: kids to enter their ages before signing up, and he 89 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: defended that decision, right. But we we could do something 90 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: similar to snapchat right collecting the age the year of births. 91 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: But those kids there were anyway say they over certain, right, 92 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: So that doesn't really change the conversation for us. The 93 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: most important thing is we have to make sure the 94 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: environment is a safety We put a lot of resource 95 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: and technology in place to make sure everything is safety. 96 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 1: And going back to to your previous point, a lot 97 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:58,479 Speaker 1: of users, especially top users, the under certain but they 98 00:05:58,520 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: are being monitored by parents. So we do have wit 99 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,800 Speaker 1: chat communication we sell parents own daily basis, So Alex 100 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: had many parents download wha Chat. It's a Chinese messaging app, 101 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: kind of similar to What's App or Facebook Messenger. That way, 102 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: Alex and his team in Shanghai could keep in touch 103 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: with the parents by essentially texting back and forth. But 104 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: as the app hit more than a hundred million registered 105 00:06:23,839 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: users in the US, people started asking how they could 106 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 1: possibly get permission from all of these parents. But I 107 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 1: still don't understand though. If it's if these kids are 108 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: under thirteen and you're providing their you know, contact information, photographs, 109 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,600 Speaker 1: real names, user names, all things that are prohibited by 110 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: the Online Protection Act for Children. How I don't understand 111 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: how that's not a violation. But the parents give the permission. 112 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 1: It is being momented by the parents. That's a point. 113 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 1: But there can't be that all these kids, I mean, 114 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 1: so many parents don't even know what this app is. 115 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: But if you go, how do all there's You're telling 116 00:06:57,440 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: me that every kid that's under thirteen on your platform, 117 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: how their parents permission? I can't guarantee, as far as 118 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 1: I know, is being wanted by the parents. I understand 119 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 1: that you guys have have faigned that you don't know 120 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:12,240 Speaker 1: the ages of users before, or that their parents are 121 00:07:12,240 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: always involved. Honestly, looking at this content, I think that 122 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: this is something that you guys should really be looking 123 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: deeper into. I was surprised by how hard Josh Constein 124 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: is questioning Alex here. Tech conferences usually showcase a founder's success, 125 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: not this. It's also just strange to hear Alex caught 126 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 1: so completely on his back foot from the get go. 127 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: Alex seemed to know just how he wanted his app 128 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: to look and feel. He had a vision for how 129 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: to handle creators and how to work with the music industry. 130 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 1: So why was he so careless about the young users 131 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: on his platform. The way he handled this problem seems sloppy, 132 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: and this would come back to bite him. I remember 133 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 1: the founder of Musically had actually been interviewed at the 134 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: conference with an industry conference where he was asked in 135 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,400 Speaker 1: detail about their cop of compliance and he said, oh, yeah, 136 00:08:03,440 --> 00:08:05,160 Speaker 1: we have a lot of kids under thirteen. But then 137 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: everybody said no, but we don't have a problem their 138 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: parents know, and he was really given a hard time 139 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: and it was really I mean, it just was pretty blatant. 140 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: So most companies don't do things like that. That's Angela Campbell, 141 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,239 Speaker 1: an attorney who has spent decades working on child privacy issues. 142 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: She was among a group of lawyers who failed to 143 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: complain against TikTok to the Federal Trade Commission. So in 144 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, about a year after Byte Dance bought Musically 145 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: and folded it into TikTok, it came out that TikTok 146 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: had become the subject of a federal investigation. I mean, 147 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: there were just so many little kids on the app 148 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: back then. It was unbelievable. Um such a clear cop 149 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: of violation. They had lots of kids songs they had, 150 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: you know, like baby Shark was one of the things 151 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 1: you could lip sync too. So even though they said 152 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: they were only intended for over thirty, it was clear 153 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: that that wasn't the case. They were directed their children, 154 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: and also that they knew that they had kids on there. 155 00:09:03,920 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: The cop of violations were apparently so clear that the 156 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: federal government stepped in. In February nineteen, the FTC alleged 157 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: the app was collecting personal information from kids without their 158 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: parents consent. The U. S Government slapped TikTok's Chinese parent company, 159 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: Bye Dance, with a five point seven million dollar fine. 160 00:09:24,760 --> 00:09:27,680 Speaker 1: At the time, it was the largest ever child privacy 161 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: settlement in US history. TikTok's unchecked growth appeared to be 162 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: at risk. They agreed to make a number of changes, 163 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: including deleting the profiles of kids under thirteen, and they 164 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 1: put out a statement today the FTC announced a settlement 165 00:09:43,360 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: agreement related to Musically. It's our priority to create a 166 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: safe and welcoming experience for all of our users. I 167 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: remember thinking that the statement was so backward looking. It 168 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 1: focused on Musically, which at that point had been defunct 169 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,599 Speaker 1: for almost a year, and it seemed to lay the 170 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: blame squarely on Musically's founder, Alex jew The company was 171 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: framing the FTC fine as a problem with its previous self, 172 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: an ugly issue TikTok left behind when it stopped being Musically, 173 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,200 Speaker 1: but things didn't work out that way. We'll be right back. 174 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: Don Hawkins runs a group called the National Center on 175 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: Sexual Exploitation. She says a few things surprise her anymore 176 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: when it comes to kids on social media. Until one 177 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: of our family members got on TikTok. He's eight years old. 178 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: His second grade teacher um suggested that all of the 179 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,320 Speaker 1: students get on TikTok as a way to kind of 180 00:10:45,360 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: bond and stay close. They could they could make funny 181 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: videos together, et cetera. UM obviously see a lot wrong 182 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:54,719 Speaker 1: with that. Kids are not suppose of you on these 183 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 1: platforms until they're thirteen or older. UM and eight year 184 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 1: old especially, there's a lot out of problematic content on 185 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: there um for their little brains to handle. Don says 186 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: his eight year old parents agree to let their son 187 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 1: on TikTok because they thought TikTok was safe and because 188 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: his teacher thought it would be a fun thing to try. 189 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: I found out he hit was on it and took 190 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: a look at his account, and I found that thirty 191 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: two men had written him private messages, and some of 192 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: the messages contained links to disturbing images. But Dawn says 193 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: they were too subtle for an eight year old to 194 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 1: understand how and why they were wrong. So often it 195 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: was just like, hey, you're so cute, how are you? 196 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: Will you send me these videos? Some of them sent 197 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:43,839 Speaker 1: images of their um, of their penises and asked them 198 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: for pictures of his. A couple of them did say 199 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: it's a challenge. Others just said, hey, you should do this, 200 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: and wear this and and he just did it. Yeah, 201 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:57,199 Speaker 1: he just did it. And then things got even more disturbing, 202 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: and some of the men asked him, I think that 203 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: they were men, asked him to create some videos in 204 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 1: his underwear and gave him exact videos to copy and 205 00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 1: dance moves to copies, which he did and um. And 206 00:12:12,880 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: we then found that some of them had recorded his 207 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: videos and then reposted them. And this was perhaps the 208 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: worst part. The videos were being shared widely, and so 209 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 1: his videos had, you know, like under twenty views and um, 210 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 1: but the videos that they reposted of him had tens 211 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: of thousands and um. And you know, he's in his 212 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: underwear dancing in a very sexually like suggestive way. Um. 213 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: Not realizing what it means, John broke the news to 214 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: her young relative about what happened with his videos, like 215 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 1: his whole body language changed, and he said, he's so embarrassed, 216 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: and he didn't know that it could be sent out there. 217 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: He posted it on his own channel, How how is 218 00:12:56,960 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: it possible that it could be on someone else's. He 219 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,719 Speaker 1: didn't give permission. And the rest of that day he 220 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: kept coming to me asking how could they copy it? 221 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: Why would they do that to him that was just 222 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: for him and his friends. His little eight year old 223 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 1: self is so traumatized that it's it's out there, and 224 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: what does that mean? Are his friends at school are 225 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 1: going to see it? And and so forth. I spoke 226 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: to don about nine months after the videos went up. 227 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: Her family was still trying to get them removed. He's 228 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: working with some police now. I think the police are 229 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: asking for those videos to come down. And did he 230 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: delete TikTok or is he still on it? You know what, 231 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: These kids love it and it is so fun, right, 232 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: so once he's experienced it, he it's really hard to 233 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 1: take it away. So um it isn't fully deleted, but 234 00:13:46,520 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: he's only allowed to be on it when a parent 235 00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: or an adult is sitting with him. It's pretty telling 236 00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: that after something like this happened, this eight year old 237 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 1: is still on TikTok. But that just speaks to how 238 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: addictive app is. TikTok started asking users for their date 239 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: of birth in twenty nineteen, and the spokesperson told me 240 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:09,000 Speaker 1: they'll delete the accounts of kids that they find are 241 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 1: lying about their age. But Bloomberg has reported that the 242 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 1: FTC and the Department of Justice are looking into allegations 243 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: that TikTok hasn't followed through with these promises. When the 244 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:23,240 Speaker 1: story came out, TikTok gave us a statement, we take 245 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: the issue of safety seriously for all our users, and 246 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: we continue to further strengthen our safeguards. TikTok has become 247 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: so ubiquitous now among teens that what happens on TikTok 248 00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:38,280 Speaker 1: leaks into life offline. I spoke to a school police 249 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: officer about this. I see it on TikTok, I see 250 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: it in real life, and that's all across the world 251 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: that that's happening. All kinds of challenges that go on 252 00:14:47,360 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: that are awful. The duets are awful, right, some of 253 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: the duets. You know, somebody has half a screen, the 254 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: other person has half a screen, and the duets just 255 00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 1: makes our some awful uh sexualization of young kids, and 256 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: and they're recording it for TikTok. That's Officer David Gomez. 257 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: He's a school cop in Idaho. When he started nearly 258 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: a decade ago, he thought he'd be spending most of 259 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: his time breaking up fights, stopping school shootings, or keeping 260 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 1: drugs out of bathrooms. But on the job, he noticed 261 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: that kids social lives had moved beyond the hallways and 262 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: parking lots, onto their phones and onto platforms like TikTok. 263 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: I'll ask kids at my own school, Hey, how many 264 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: people do you think who are juniors have sent out 265 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: their nude photos? And you know the answer I get 266 00:15:31,920 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: more and more is coomans. I think everybody has sent 267 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: out their nude photo by eleventh grade, right, and by 268 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: eighth grade it's about fifty. And that is a question 269 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: I absolutely get a lot. Hey, is everybody's doing it? 270 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: Why is it a big deal that I do it? 271 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: While it seems that sending a sexy photo is kind 272 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: of a write of passage for teenagers these days, it's 273 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: a big deal to Officer Gomez because that naked photo 274 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: could be used as blackmail, as a tool for predators 275 00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: to extore young children. He told me about a recent 276 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 1: case he handled with one of his students. One of 277 00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: them again that started on TikTok, was a twenty four 278 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: year old in Pennsylvania who was collecting girls to send 279 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 1: him weekly naked pictures of themselves. One of the girls 280 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 1: was a thirteen year old student at his school. Once 281 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: he got their underwear picture and say, hey, look, if 282 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: unless you want all your friends, your school, your grandparents 283 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: send me. Now, you're gonna send me a video every 284 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 1: week by this time, or else I'm gonna blast this 285 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: to everybody. Officer Gomez says she sent the man in 286 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: Pennsylvania photos of herself because she felt she had no 287 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: choice and was too scared to ask for help. Gomez 288 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: has seen this a lot. They feel shamed, they feel embarrassed, 289 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: you know, they feel out of control, they feel brainwashed. 290 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: All those things are the same things that adult predators 291 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: are using on young girls who are too much easier 292 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: to control than an adult woman would be. Officer Gomez 293 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: says he was able to get Pennsylvania State troopers to 294 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,440 Speaker 1: go to the guy's house and warn him to stop. Luckily, 295 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 1: in this case, the guy stopped contacting the thirteen year old, 296 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: but Gomez warns that her naked photos are all out 297 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: there and other predators could buy them one day and 298 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: try to extort her again. And do you think TikTok 299 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 1: in particular has become a bigger problem in recent heres? 300 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 1: Absolutely right, it has become the biggest problem above Snapchat. 301 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: Now this was news to me when I first met 302 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: Officer Gomez it was and I was working on a 303 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: magazine story about TikTok. Back then. He told me that 304 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: Snapchat was his main concern because of its disappearing messages. 305 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: But in the past two years, from Officer Gomez's perspective, 306 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: TikTok has overtaken Snapchat as the most dangerous app for kids. 307 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:41,719 Speaker 1: Oh really, why why above Snapchat? Because parents think that 308 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: TikTok has some redeeming values of them making videos, and 309 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: I would agree that it does have some redeeming values 310 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: yea videos, lip syncing, singing, dancing around, oxide activity, Okay, 311 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 1: I see that stuff. But parents are just not understanding 312 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: how many predators are on TikTok. Parents underestimate TikTok because 313 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 1: they don't see what their children see. Alex, do you you 314 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: explain this back in people will have very personalized experience, 315 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 1: see very very different contents basically on the age, based 316 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: on the preference, So the parents experience will be completely different. 317 00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: With experience. Personalization means that a parent can't exactly monitor 318 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: their child's feet and it means that they're not clued 319 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 1: in into some of the big issues on TikTok. One 320 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: of those problems is bullying. And it happens often, all 321 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: the time, all the time, and it's definitely with like 322 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: people who aren't conventionally pretty or even like just looks 323 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: slightly different than like the average beauty standard. That's Liz, 324 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: an eighteen year old from Florida. She didn't want us 325 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:51,959 Speaker 1: to use her last name. Lizays TikTok is worse than 326 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 1: other social media apps. She uses them, always coming onto 327 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:57,360 Speaker 1: my life teams just like calling me names like oh, 328 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: you're so ugly, you're so fat, you cow, and I'm like, okay, cool, thanks, 329 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for the input. Bullying happens on 330 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: our social media sites, but it can be more damaging 331 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 1: when we're talking about the really young users on TikTok. 332 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,680 Speaker 1: And because TikTok is still so new compared to other companies, 333 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:17,720 Speaker 1: there are fewer people working on many of these safety issues. 334 00:19:18,520 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: I spoke to a girl in the UK named Talia 335 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 1: about this. She's thirteen and had a horrible experience on TikTok. 336 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: I lost all my friends that I thought or baby 337 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 1: enough for a long time and the best time because 338 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: I felt alone a lot, so I felt like kind 339 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: of trapped. That makes sense. It all began when Talia 340 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,760 Speaker 1: started getting a flurry of messages from her classmates. So 341 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: I was doing online work and suddenly my phone got 342 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 1: message saying did you do this to this girl? And 343 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: I went, no, of course not, and then I got 344 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: um six messages from the same kept going keept going, 345 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: and I realized that I was her mom because the 346 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: things I was getting said to me. And then Talier 347 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:05,800 Speaker 1: just came up to me and she said something's happened 348 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 1: on TikTok and I was like, what do you mean. 349 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: She she starts to explain it, and I'll just give 350 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: me your phone. That's Talia's mom, Shelley deal. She says, 351 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,359 Speaker 1: someone online was pretending to be Talia. They set up 352 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,760 Speaker 1: an account with Talia's face and Talia's name with the 353 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 1: sole purpose of trolling a popular girl at their middle school. 354 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: It's what many tiktoker's call a hate account. So this 355 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:31,200 Speaker 1: person pretending to be Talia was calling this other girl 356 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: really mean things, calling her a pig, fat, and ugly, 357 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: and all of Talia's friends were confused why was Talia 358 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,639 Speaker 1: doing this? So then all of their classmates started to 359 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 1: hit back at the real Talia, asking how she could 360 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: have done such a thing. I had no proof they 361 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 1: weren't me. I can't really do much because I thought 362 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:52,720 Speaker 1: I was really good friends to people, so people that 363 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 1: messaging me, they just seemed so angry at me for 364 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 1: something that I didn't do. Um. They were just saying 365 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: that she's jealous, that she's a bit, she's a slag, 366 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: just awful things. Talia's mom tried reaching out to TikTok. 367 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,000 Speaker 1: When she couldn't reach anyone, she reported the issues to 368 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: the school, who sent her to the police, but the 369 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: police said that TikTok refused to turn over any information. 370 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: I'd already reported it to TikTok and said someone is 371 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 1: pretending to be my daughter and didn't hear anything back. Um. 372 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 1: But I was just shocked. And then the more the 373 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: TikTok's were coming in, I just felt sick. I just 374 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,439 Speaker 1: felt physically sick. This was happening to her and we 375 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 1: just didn't know who it was and why, and we 376 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,879 Speaker 1: couldn't stop it because I just thought I could report 377 00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: it to TikTok, they'd be taken down and that would 378 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:40,760 Speaker 1: be in for it. But they were It was a 379 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,879 Speaker 1: long time before they took it down. She said. The 380 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: police officers told her this was a particularly bad case 381 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: of online abuse, but they didn't have the resources to 382 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: go after TikTok, even though cyber bullying is illegal in 383 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,199 Speaker 1: the UK. On TikTok, you can't speak to anyone. They 384 00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 1: don't reply. There's no response. I've given them chrome reference number. UM. 385 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,320 Speaker 1: I said, it's serious. The police are dealing with it. 386 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: This is a brilliant You don't even get a response, 387 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: they just ignore you. A few months after I spoke 388 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: to Talia and her mom, TikTok finally did something about 389 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 1: the incident because Talia's story appeared in the Daily Mail, 390 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,960 Speaker 1: and then TikTok banned the hate account for violating its guidelines. 391 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 1: A TikTok spokesperson said, bullying and harassment are strictly against 392 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: our community guidelines, and content of that sort is removed. 393 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,919 Speaker 1: But the hate accounts stayed up for eight months and 394 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,239 Speaker 1: this incident changed Talia's life to the point where her 395 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:41,119 Speaker 1: mom decided Talia should move schools. Obviously, Yeah, we've had 396 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: times where she's just been sobbing and really down. You know, 397 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,120 Speaker 1: she's lost even her best friends that she's had since 398 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: primary school. All turns against her. UM and it was 399 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: actually her that said I could never go back to 400 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: that school. I was surprised to find out that Talia 401 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: stayed on TikTok. Her mom allows it because it's helped 402 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: Tally a big friends at her new school tell you 403 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: says that what happens still haunts her, but she's moving on. Yeah. 404 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,239 Speaker 1: I want to find out who it is. But if not, 405 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: I want to leave it behind and on Monday friends 406 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: and just forget about what I'm trying. Don Hawkins, the 407 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,719 Speaker 1: child's safety advocate we heard from earlier, the one who 408 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 1: had the eight year old relative. She thinks that problems 409 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 1: like this shouldn't just be up to parents and the police. 410 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 1: She wants TikTok to take a heavier hand and protecting 411 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: its young users. Look, these tech companies know pretty much 412 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:37,399 Speaker 1: everything there is to know about us. They know us 413 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: better than we know ourselves. They can detect age lying, 414 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: They probably already have all of that information on us already. 415 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 1: Don speculating here, But many tech experts I've spoken to 416 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: agree with her that tech companies can do more to 417 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: protect kids, but they don't because it would bite into 418 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:58,280 Speaker 1: add revenue. TikTok has made some strides and improving the 419 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: safety of its app. The company barred kids under sixteen 420 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,840 Speaker 1: from sending messages and right after we contacted TikTok for 421 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: comment about this episode. In January, they stopped users from 422 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: being able to duet or download videos posted by kids 423 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,000 Speaker 1: under sixteen, and they stopped strangers from being able to 424 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: comment on those videos. They also introduced a big change 425 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: so that if you're under sixteen, your account is set 426 00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: to private by default. That means kids have to individually 427 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: approve who gets to see their videos or deliberately changed 428 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 1: their account to public. TikTok also released a statement. They 429 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: wrote these changes are aimed at driving higher default standards 430 00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: for user privacy and safety, but Dawn says that it's 431 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: clear that child safety still isn't TikTok's number one priority. 432 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:50,359 Speaker 1: She believes these problems emerged because TikTok became so successful 433 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: so quickly. I do give TikTok the benefit of the doubt. 434 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: I think probably it was a problem of scaling and growing. 435 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: I mean, their company explode it in growth across the world, um, 436 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: and they just didn't they didn't prioritize child safety as 437 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: they were growing. At this point, child's safety was turning 438 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,199 Speaker 1: into a disaster for TikTok and for Bye Dance. The CEO, 439 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,879 Speaker 1: John Gi Ming, just as he got his wish of 440 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: taking TikTok worldwide and surpassing one billion registered users, suddenly 441 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 1: all these problems started to emerge, child exploitation, cyber bullying. 442 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: He gets slapped with the heftiest FTC fine of all 443 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: time for violating child privacy laws. The UK and India 444 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: launched their own investigations. You can't exactly go out and 445 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: celebrate when everyone knows this is going on in your platform. 446 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 1: I spoke to a number of people who worked with 447 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: the Ming. They told me that he has an obsession 448 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,160 Speaker 1: with the technology side of his business, but he never 449 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: really wants to wait into pr problems or government relations. 450 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: He's a practical person and who often doesn't understand the 451 00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 1: emotional side of his business. He's often at a loss 452 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: when it comes to dealing with people. That includes both 453 00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: his colleagues and the users on his apps. People said 454 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,880 Speaker 1: that Yuman believed he could get past the issues presented 455 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: by the children on TikTok by programming his way around 456 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: them for Bike Dance, based on the success of the 457 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 1: products they already had in China. They were pretty confident 458 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: that they will be able to expand beyond this very 459 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 1: young demographic and make the app mainstream. That's where I mom, 460 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 1: she's a former tech banker in China and Silicon Valley. 461 00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: She's spent years following Byte Dance, TikTok's parent company. She 462 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 1: says that by Dance may have felt confident about their 463 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,520 Speaker 1: ability to move past the FTC investigation because you Mean 464 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: had been in hot water before. He had big run 465 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,200 Speaker 1: ins with regulators in China, where laws about child internet 466 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 1: use are much stricter than in the US. So even 467 00:26:54,640 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: before the US government was looking at TikTok for having 468 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: underage users, by Dance had actually gone through a whole 469 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:07,840 Speaker 1: series of, you know, investigations with the Chinese government. Um. 470 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,439 Speaker 1: That's because the platform was accused of having inappropriate content. 471 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: UM one of its actually first apps called They had Dwines, 472 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:19,159 Speaker 1: and it was a app that feature jokes and memes, 473 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: and it was permanently banned um from the app stores 474 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,479 Speaker 1: by the Chinese government back in April two tho eighteen April, 475 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,760 Speaker 1: so a year before the FTC fine. Apparently Mean felt 476 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,120 Speaker 1: shaken by the Chinese government's actions. I think in some ways, 477 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: you could call it existential, yeah, because like at that point, 478 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 1: that was the harshest punishment that had been doled out, 479 00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,760 Speaker 1: leading to Johnny Mean actually having to come out with 480 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,840 Speaker 1: a very public apology. Eming wrote a public letter that 481 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 1: he posted on one of his social media accounts at 482 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,640 Speaker 1: four in the morning, apologizing to Chinese regulators, his users, 483 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,840 Speaker 1: and his employees. I asked my colleague to read a 484 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,880 Speaker 1: version that was translated by the China Media Project. I've 485 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: been filled with remorse and guilt, entirely unable to sleep. 486 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: Our product took the wrong path, and I'm personally responsible 487 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: for the punishments we've received. We placed excessive emphasis on 488 00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,840 Speaker 1: the role of technology, and we have not acknowledged that 489 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: technology must be led by the socialist core value system 490 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:27,679 Speaker 1: broadcasting positive energy. At the time, some media analysts speculate 491 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,200 Speaker 1: this letter was Human's way of saying that he would 492 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,560 Speaker 1: fall in line with the Chinese government's demands, and he did. 493 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: You Mean created several child safety features for his Chinese users. 494 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: Kids were blocked from the Chinese version of TikTok from 495 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 1: ten pm until six am, and he used facial recognition 496 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 1: to predict their ages. But these changes were made in China, 497 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: and you mean realized that he still needed to make 498 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: some big changes at TikTok globally, and that would start 499 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,960 Speaker 1: with a shake up and leadership. You mean wanted to 500 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: put someone else in charge of TikTok, someone who could 501 00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: hand all the complexities of government investigations, someone who could 502 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: talk with officials around the world, someone who could speak 503 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: English well. So you mean made a surprising move. He 504 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: decided to hand over the reins of TikTok back to 505 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: Alex jew At that point, Alex was still on a 506 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 1: sabbatical of sorts, roaming around and listening to jazz music. 507 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: Even calls Alex up and asks him to come back 508 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: to work. He wanted Alex to deal with their preteen users, 509 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,480 Speaker 1: repaired TikTok's reputation after the FTC fine, and fly to 510 00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: the US to set things straight with government officials. And 511 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: it's not just that Eming asks Alex back because he 512 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: suddenly gained a conscience and wanted to protect kids. Multiple 513 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: people have told me that Evening actually blamed Alex for 514 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: creating the problem in the first place. After all, it 515 00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: was Alex who appeared to ignore the issues of having 516 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: so many young users on the app for years, so 517 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: you mean wanted Alex to clean up the mess. But 518 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: soon after Alex came back to TikTok, he find out 519 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: that TikTok's young users were just the start of his problems. 520 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: He would find TikTok in the crosshairs of u S 521 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: lawmakers and the president. Politicians wanted to know where all 522 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: this American data was going and what exactly was by 523 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: Dance's relationship with the Chinese government. That's next time on Foundering. 524 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: Foundering is hosted by me Shelley Banjo. Sean Wyn is 525 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: our executive producer. Raymondo is our audio engineer. Molly Nugent 526 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: is our associate producer. Additional reporting by Isabel Lee. Special 527 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: thanks to Jeping Huang, Edwin Chan, Josh Brustin, and Doors 528 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 1: Schloton's class at Portola High School in Irvine, California. Her 529 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 1: students gave us so many great insights on what it's 530 00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,000 Speaker 1: like to be a teenager on TikTok. Our story editors 531 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: are Mark Billion and Vander May and Alistair Barr. Francesca 532 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: Levi is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. Shared a subscribe 533 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: and if you like our show, leave a review. Most importantly, 534 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: tell your friends see you next time.