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Speaker 1: It's very difficult to keep the line between the.

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Speaker 2: Past and the past.

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Speaker 3: New believe someone out of the.

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Speaker 2: Past can enter and take possession of a living We.

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Speaker 4: Maybe true with the past, but the past is not

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Speaker 4: true with us. Welcome back to the next Picture Show.

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Speaker 4: Movie the Week podcast devoted to a classic film in

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Speaker 4: the way its shape our thoughts on a recent release.

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Speaker 4: I'm Scott here again with Tasha Robinson. Our regular co

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Speaker 4: host Keith Phipps and Genevieve Cooski are taking a break

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Speaker 4: this week, but we still have our friend Nol Murray,

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Speaker 4: the freelance goat, Jack of All Trades, Master of All Trades.

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Speaker 5: Hello, Noel, Hello, I think you got that wrong.

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Speaker 3: It's Jack of some.

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Speaker 4: Trades all yes, Master of all Baby. Last week we

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Speaker 4: talked about John Slushinger's Sunday Bloody Sunday. We have a

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Speaker 4: similar love triangle this week with Iris Sax's new movie Passages.

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Speaker 4: Sax has tackled matters of the heart before in movies

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Speaker 4: like Love Is Strange and Keep the Lights On, But

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Speaker 4: Passages finds another level of intimacy and intensity, so intimate

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Speaker 4: and intense, in fact, that the NPA rated at NC seventeen.

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Speaker 4: The filmmakers have decided to release it unrated. Set in

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Speaker 4: Paris and featuring a truly international cast, Passages stars Christian

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Speaker 4: Petzold favorite Franz Rugowski as Thomas, a German filmmaker who's

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Speaker 4: just about to enter the editing phase of his latest production.

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Speaker 4: At the rap party, however, he hits it off with

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Speaker 4: a young frenchwoman named Agath played by Adele ex Archipulos

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Speaker 4: of Blue is the Warmest color Fame. Things get hot

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Speaker 4: and heavy with Tomas and the Gath pretty quickly, but

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Speaker 4: there's one problem. Thomas is married to another man, a

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Speaker 4: shy brit named Martin played by Ben Wishaw. Martin seems

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Speaker 4: rarely accustomed to Tomas's watering eye, but their relationship is already

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Speaker 4: strained to the breaking point when he starts seeing a goth. Nevertheless,

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Speaker 4: getting disentangled isn't easy for Thomas and Martin, and a

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Speaker 4: series of new developments heightens the tension between all three

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Speaker 4: of them. We'll talk more about them that after the break.

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Speaker 5: You know what I was.

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Speaker 3: Doing, not.

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Speaker 5: No, but whatever it was. You sound very excited.

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Speaker 2: If my party and my husband does more to a

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Speaker 2: dance with me, I'll dance with you. Maybe we have

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Speaker 2: to take more with I said, now you're falling in

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Speaker 2: love with someone else, you're taking that risk.

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Speaker 4: Okay, So I am obviously really curious from the jump here,

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Speaker 4: what what you all thought of this movie? No, let's

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Speaker 4: start with you. What do you think of Passages?

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Speaker 3: I liked it quite a bit.

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Speaker 5: I'm a fan of Iris Sax's films in general. I

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Speaker 5: would not rate this on the same level as like

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Speaker 5: Love Is Stranger Little Men, which are probably my two

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Speaker 5: favorites of his, But it had a lot of the

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Speaker 5: hallmarks of what I really like about his films, you know,

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Speaker 5: things that to some might be a little off putting,

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Speaker 5: like the fact that everybody kind of speaks very plainly,

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Speaker 5: you know, Unlike in Sunday Bloody Sunday, where people can't communicate,

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Speaker 5: everybody here is communicating very directly. They're saying exactly what's

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Speaker 5: on their mind, even if they might have some ulterior

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Speaker 5: motive for why they're saying it. But I also like

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Speaker 5: the fact that he doesn't he doesn't mess around a

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Speaker 5: lot with dragging things out. I mean, the scenes in

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Speaker 5: this movie, they're frequently the scenes don't necessarily follow directly

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Speaker 5: from each other, like for example, we'll see Thomas will have,

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Speaker 5: you know, an interaction with a goth and her family

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Speaker 5: that goes horribly awry, and the next scene is him

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Speaker 5: at Martin's door talking about how great the screening was

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Speaker 5: for his new film, and the two don't have anything

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Speaker 5: to do with each other, but it's just the story

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Speaker 5: moving along. Just think he doesn't he just he skips

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Speaker 5: past time and gets to the moments that he wants

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Speaker 5: to get to, and I find that really refreshing. This

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Speaker 5: whole movie is over and done in like ninety minutes,

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Speaker 5: and while being short is not necessarily the homework of

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Speaker 5: a great film, it certainly I feel like, you know,

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Speaker 5: he contained what he wanted to contain within that time period.

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Speaker 3: So so yeah.

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Speaker 4: I like to quite a b taka what about you.

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Speaker 1: I also enjoyed it, although it's certainly more in your

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Speaker 1: face about a lot of things than Sunday Bloody Sunday is,

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Speaker 1: and that includes kind of centering more on the back

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Speaker 1: and forth character and kind of finding him to be

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Speaker 1: a jerk. Really, I mean, I don't know what you

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Speaker 1: could not find fascinating about incredibly hot people doing each

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Speaker 1: other dirty and also just frequently doing each other rather

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Speaker 1: graphically on screen. This movie reminded me of Blue is

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Speaker 1: the Warmest Color, for more reasons than the presence of

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Speaker 1: one of the main actresses from that movie. There were times,

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Speaker 1: much as with Sunday, Bloody Sunday, where it was kind

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Speaker 1: of like, what is this scene doing, why is this here,

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Speaker 1: or sort of felt like we've made this point before

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Speaker 1: and it was a depressing point the first time. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: as no says, it's it's efficient, it moves along. There's

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Speaker 1: some stuff in there that feels like almost like cringe

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Speaker 1: humor or discomfort humor. That that whole excruciating meal with

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Speaker 1: the parents was hard to sit through, like in a

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Speaker 1: good way, in the kind of way where you want

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Speaker 1: to watch a movie that makes you feel something. And

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Speaker 1: what that movie made me, what that scene made me

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Speaker 1: feel was that I wanted to get up and leave

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Speaker 1: the room, but just just very efficient and in a

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Speaker 1: lot of ways that bringing across the emotion at selling

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Speaker 1: us on what would be so like evocative and drawing

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Speaker 1: about Tomas that would make these two people like come

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Speaker 1: to him the first place and then continue to be

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Speaker 1: drawn to him no matter what he does to them,

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Speaker 1: and then deeply regret having found him attractive in the

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Speaker 1: first place, and like the process of watching them look

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Speaker 1: internally at what it was that attracted them to him

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Speaker 1: and just finding them themselves wanting, I think is just

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Speaker 1: maybe one of the more fascinating elements of this entire movie.

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Speaker 4: And I think that's kind of the point of a

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Speaker 4: lot of of the explicitness of it. And something I

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Speaker 4: appreciate is like it's like there is something quite raw

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Speaker 4: about the about you know, this is raw attraction in desire,

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Speaker 4: physical desire that accounts for a lot of this forgiveness.

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Speaker 4: I suppose that people the looking past to us is

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Speaker 4: not so great behavior. It's sold it on that on

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Speaker 4: that front that you can have these two characters and

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Speaker 4: a Gath and Martin, who are especially Martin, you know,

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Speaker 4: pretty pretty centered, otherwise pretty rational people, but they just

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Speaker 4: have that, you know, desire that they can't suppress, even

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Speaker 4: though even if they know it may not lead to

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Speaker 4: a good place. That scene with the parents though, wow,

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Speaker 4: it is it is this is this is a scene.

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Speaker 4: We're getting into spoiler territories. We always do. So if

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Speaker 4: you haven't seen passages, maybe maybe uh maybe returned to

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Speaker 4: the to the podcast another time, But at this point

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Speaker 4: in the movie, we have discovered that that a gath

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Speaker 4: Is is pregnant and uh, and so the parents are

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Speaker 4: a little concerned about that. They haven't they haven't met uh,

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Speaker 4: they haven't met Tomas yet and certainly have no sense

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Speaker 4: of how this child is going to get raised. And

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Speaker 4: and he comes in. This movie's kind a kind of

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Speaker 4: a sneaky sense of humor to it as well, But

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Speaker 4: he kind of comes in. He definitely looks like somebody

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Speaker 4: who has just uh had sex with the man come

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Speaker 4: back home. Like like there's like he doesn't do a

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Speaker 4: good job of disguising that that is a potential thing

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Speaker 4: that he just did. And then uh, and that he

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Speaker 4: just enters into this you know, it's just at his

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Speaker 4: worst at this moment, and uh, and it just everything

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Speaker 4: kind of falls to pieces really really good scene. But

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Speaker 4: I'm thinking with I'm definitely with with Nola. I think

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Speaker 4: maybe it was a pretty good observation. I think about

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Speaker 4: the sax style and about about the plain spokeness of it.

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Speaker 4: But there's not only that, but I think there's also

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Speaker 4: a a sense a confidence that a lot of these

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Speaker 4: these pieces, these sort of jagged edges, are going to

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Speaker 4: add up to something in a big way. And I

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Speaker 4: remember Little Men is that too. Little Men is like

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Speaker 4: hit you like a guy, you know, like an absolute

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Speaker 4: wrecking ball, but you don't need but you don't see

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Speaker 4: it coming because that's not really the nature of the movie.

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Speaker 4: The movie is kind of building and building and building

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Speaker 4: to something, and then he gets to this moment and

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Speaker 4: it's just overwhelming and love it strange. Love its strange

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Speaker 4: just the same way. It's just it's it's a real

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Speaker 4: talent that he has. So yeah, so uh what do

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Speaker 4: we think of these characters and these performances?

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Speaker 5: Uh yeah, so Tomas, Uh yeah, So, I mean it's

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Speaker 5: fascinating to have the movie centered on him, given that

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Speaker 5: he is. He is obviously the most difficult of the three.

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Speaker 5: You know, Martin clearly is is is used to him

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Speaker 5: at one point early in the film, you know, when

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Speaker 5: when Thomas is like, well, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: If I want to.

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Speaker 5: I've bet this woman that I kind of like her

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Speaker 5: and I might be going with this, and and you know,

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Speaker 5: Martin is like, You're always like this when you finish

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Speaker 5: a film, when you finish making a movie.

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Speaker 3: You always behave like this.

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Speaker 5: You forget that you do this, but you always do this,

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Speaker 5: and there's that sense of you know that he's just

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Speaker 5: gonna weather this storm and it'll it'll, you know, all

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Speaker 5: be normal and at some point, but then things get

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Speaker 5: more complicated as it goes. A guy of course has

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Speaker 5: no idea. She's never experienced this before, so she doesn't

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Speaker 5: know whether this is like a feverish moment where they're

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Speaker 5: they're getting together and they're going to be together forever.

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Speaker 5: She doesn't know that he's got these kind of whims.

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Speaker 5: I mean, they're fascinatingly, they're well, they're very well drawn characters,

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Speaker 5: and I think it's because they're so well drawn, the

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Speaker 5: fact that he is such such a jerk, you know,

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Speaker 5: so selfish you also, I think it's kind of a

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Speaker 5: hallmark also of Iris Axis films. A lot of times

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Speaker 5: characters can behave both abominably and yet you also sort

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Speaker 5: of understand them. You don't necessarily forgive them, but you

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Speaker 5: can kind of see who they are. Like even in

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Speaker 5: that scene with the parents, I was totally on his

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Speaker 5: side for a lot of that, like why are they

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Speaker 5: asking these questions? What purpose does it serve to ask him?

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Speaker 5: You know, Oh, so you were Mary to a man

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Speaker 5: once and oh are you going to take care of

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Speaker 5: this kid?

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Speaker 3: What's he supposed to say?

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Speaker 5: I mean, I was, you know, I kind of identified

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Speaker 5: with his frustration where he gets up and walks out.

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Speaker 3: He's like, well enough of this.

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Speaker 4: He's out.

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Speaker 5: So Yeah, the performances are all I think, really really

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Speaker 5: well pitched. I think the characters are all extraordinarily well drawn,

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Speaker 5: and I think the choice to center it on the

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Speaker 5: least likable of the three characters is probably the thing

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Speaker 5: that's going to drive some people away, but it's also

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Speaker 5: I think it makes the film fascinating.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. The thing I would I would emphasize about that

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Speaker 4: character too, is that he is in prison of his

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Speaker 4: own making as well. You know that that that this

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Speaker 4: is he is not just a you know, supernatural destructive

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Speaker 4: force who just tears through the lives of these of

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Speaker 4: these characters like he himself. You know, his his needed

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Speaker 4: needed is his narcissism. They have a cost, a personal

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Speaker 4: cost to him that I think the film really registers strongly,

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Speaker 4: particularly at the end or anytime he's on a bicycle,

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Speaker 4: which is very very terrifying. Uh, you know, he's what

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Speaker 4: is his life going to be like? Because there's a

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Speaker 4: lot of it, you know, he's selfish and he has

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Speaker 4: these desires, but he's also very needy and childlike in

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Speaker 4: certain respects and doesn't really seem like he's capable of change.

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Speaker 4: And the result of that is that he's not going

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Speaker 4: to be able to nurse his wounds and move on

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Speaker 4: in the way that Martin and a Gath seem capable

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Speaker 4: of doing, because there are ultimately more, you know, likable,

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Speaker 4: centered adult people. So I kind of appreciated that the

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Speaker 4: film does give you this aspect of Thomas where you

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Speaker 4: can feel a certain amount of pity for him and

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Speaker 4: feel like, this is kind of, uh, he's kind of

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Speaker 4: in a prison of his own making.

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Speaker 1: He felt like a very unusual film character to me,

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Speaker 1: because he's not he's not toxic exactly. Like, he's not abusive,

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Speaker 1: he's not he's not cheating exactly. You know, he's the

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Speaker 1: kind of person that comes in from sleeping with somebody

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Speaker 1: outside the marriage without having discussed it with his partner first,

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Speaker 1: and wants to eagerly explain to his partner, you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I disappeared, I was out all night. I lied to

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Speaker 1: you about where I was. I just completely gave myself

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Speaker 1: over to like this completely random thing and now I

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Speaker 1: want to brag about it to you, like I want

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Speaker 1: to share it with you, which you know, it comes

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Speaker 1: across as like you're important to me. You're an important

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Speaker 1: person in my life, so of course I want to

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Speaker 1: share with you, like this really cool thing that just happened.

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Speaker 1: I have absolutely no understanding whatsoever of like what you're

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Speaker 1: feeling right now. It doesn't really occur to me. What's

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Speaker 1: important is that I tell you about my feelings and

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Speaker 1: this cool thing that I just did. The whole movie

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Speaker 1: for me turns on a moment, like very late in

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Speaker 1: the film where a character just kind of says I,

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Speaker 1: like we're done. I've had enough of this. This is over,

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Speaker 1: and Thomas pauses, and then he says, I'm so unhappy

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Speaker 1: right now. And it's just it's so clear that, like

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Speaker 1: it does not occur to him to comfort the other person,

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Speaker 1: to talk about the relationship, to praise them, to talk

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Speaker 1: about why they were good together. He just he notes

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Speaker 1: his own emotion like that is what is important in

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Speaker 1: the moment, is his own emotion, and he puts it

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Speaker 1: on a plate and hands it to the other person

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Speaker 1: to say, do something with this, take care of me,

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Speaker 1: like change your mind, because what you're doing is making

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Speaker 1: me sad, and it's just it's so telling. You know,

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Speaker 1: he's not he's not an abusive person. He's just a

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Speaker 1: very shallow one's he's not a monster. He just as

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Speaker 1: you say, he's an narcissist. He can't see outside his

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Speaker 1: own skin for long and as long as he's happy,

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Speaker 1: which he is most of the time. Because most of

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Speaker 1: the time he's getting exactly what he wants, it just

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Speaker 1: doesn't occur to him to notice what other people are

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Speaker 1: feeling in a meaningful way.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I just and the other thing too about this movie.

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Speaker 4: You know, when I just knew of it, found out

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Speaker 4: of its existence and saw who was cast in it,

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Speaker 4: it was like, hell, yeah, I want to see this

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Speaker 4: movie because I just think. I just think these actors,

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Speaker 4: all three of them, are just so damn compelling. I mean,

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Speaker 4: there's just no actor like Franz Ergowski out there. He's like,

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Speaker 4: he's like I meane, Peter Laurie something, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: There's just something the way he looks, the way he talks,

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Speaker 4: you know, the odd charisma that he brings to this

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Speaker 4: movie and of course to films like Transit from Christian Petsoul.

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Speaker 4: It's incredible to watch, like he's just a mesmerizing screen presence,

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Speaker 4: you know, and of course Adele ex Archipulos.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 4: The thing that one interesting piece of trivia about this

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Speaker 4: movie is that is that apparently iris As had never

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Speaker 4: seen blue as the warmest color when he cast her

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Speaker 4: for this movie, which is just really surprising. And then

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Speaker 4: the other surprising thing is that this is a a

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Speaker 4: an NC seventeen rated movie with explicit sex scenes in

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Speaker 4: which Adel Archer Willis is not getting, is not naked,

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Speaker 4: is in fact the gentleman who are But yeah, I

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Speaker 4: just think these these actors are all so mesmerizing, you know,

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Speaker 4: and Ben Wishaw I think is it's it's a really

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Speaker 4: subtle performance, and he's a character that who you really think,

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Speaker 4: like how these two together because he is so quiet

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Speaker 4: and reserved and thoughtful. Yet there's just like that some

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Speaker 4: spark that he needs that's missing. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 4: he when he has this relationship with with Martin, has

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Speaker 4: this relationship with an author who seems to be more

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Speaker 4: on his wavelength, it's just it doesn't click for him,

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Speaker 4: It doesn't. It just doesn't give him that same excitement.

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Speaker 4: Even though he is able to get and get to

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Speaker 4: a point you know later in the film where it's

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Speaker 4: like I can't even can't really do this anymore. So

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Speaker 4: it's an interesting performance, an interesting character, and it was

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Speaker 4: just it's just fascinating to watch, you know, screen presences

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Speaker 4: this compelling. You know, in every scene.

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Speaker 1: There's something that sex does here that I wound up

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Speaker 1: a little fascinated with. Especially in the sex scenes. He

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Speaker 1: has a tendency to kind of lose track of his

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Speaker 1: characters faces, Like you see a lot of rippling buttocks

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Speaker 1: and thrusting and like naked backs and like spines flexing.

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Speaker 1: But he has a tendency to have one of the

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Speaker 1: partners in a sex scene like with their back to

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Speaker 1: the camera and then their body obscuring the face of

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Speaker 1: the other person. In the sex scenes, so you just

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Speaker 1: get bodies and this happens during like some of the

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Speaker 1: more crucial conversations as well. I found myself weirdly tense,

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Speaker 1: like it, experience a sort of an anxiety that's just

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Speaker 1: like I want to see their face. I want to

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Speaker 1: see how they're taking this. I want to see what

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Speaker 1: you're trying to tell me about the emotions in the

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Speaker 1: moment and I can't see the other person's face. It's

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Speaker 1: an interesting technique that I have to think there's sort

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Speaker 1: of a deliberate either putting it on the wavelength of

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Speaker 1: you know, everymanizing it to the extent that like we're

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Speaker 1: turning this into something the sex scenes in particular, we're

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Speaker 1: making this something primal that isn't necessarily nested in these

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Speaker 1: two individual people, or it just literally is a way

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Speaker 1: to make the audience pay more attention because they're not

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Speaker 1: getting the signals they're expecting. You know, they're not getting

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Speaker 1: any verbal explanations of what people are thinking or feeling

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Speaker 1: or wanting. They're not getting facial expressions, They're just getting bodies,

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Speaker 1: and you know, it's I'm not sure that I like

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Speaker 1: it as a technique, but it sure didn't get my attention.

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Speaker 5: Excellent point, I think is both has of what you're

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Speaker 5: saying there. I think it comes to the sex scenes,

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Speaker 5: like we're not seeing a lot of tenderness, we're just

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Speaker 5: seeing sort of just raw carnality. But you're right that

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Speaker 5: it's also true in like a lot of the conversation scenes.

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Speaker 5: To bring it back, for example, to that dinner with

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Speaker 5: the parents, a lot of that is just a single

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Speaker 5: shot from behind the mom's head. The dad, I believe

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Speaker 5: is off screen to the left. Thomas has gotten up

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Speaker 5: and left the table and comes back to the table

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Speaker 5: a few times. The only person who's face we see

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Speaker 5: throughout that entire long argument sequels that the long take

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Speaker 5: of that argument sequence is a goth where we kind

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Speaker 5: of see her face and we have to kind of

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Speaker 5: read from it. Is she embarrassed for Tomas? Is she

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Speaker 5: embarrassed of Tamos? We don't entirely know and that and

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Speaker 5: there's a drama to watching her reaction to that. But yeah, no, absolutely,

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Speaker 5: I think there's a you know, withholding certain elements of

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Speaker 5: people's expressions from us.

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Speaker 3: It's a really interesting technique.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that sequence, not only is the dad cropped out,

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Speaker 1: he's left out by a language barrier. You know, they're

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Speaker 1: speaking in three different language and languages and they're kind

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Speaker 1: of trying to like find which language they can speak

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Speaker 1: in that'll let the maximum number of people understand. But

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Speaker 1: he just doesn't seem to have, if I remember correctly,

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Speaker 1: French or English in common with them. So the mother

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Speaker 1: at first is translating for him and then gets too

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Speaker 1: heated and can't and we can't see his face. We

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Speaker 1: have no idea what if anything, he's getting out of

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Speaker 1: any of this, And as you say, we're focused on

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Speaker 1: a gap because she's the one in the picture. But

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Speaker 1: she keeps her head in her hands. She's like so

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Speaker 1: embarrassed or frustrated that she's kind of trying to screen

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Speaker 1: it all out, and she just covers her face with

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Speaker 1: her hands for a lot of this. So once again,

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Speaker 1: we're kind of left when Tomas comes back. At least

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Speaker 1: when he's there, his face is the center of the

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Speaker 1: scene because it's the only face we can see clearly,

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Speaker 1: and then he disappears off screen and we don't know

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Speaker 1: where he's gone when he comes back. It's kind of

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Speaker 1: a surprise. I was expecting the scene to cut before that,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to having him re enter and continue the conversation.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, again an odd technique in cinema which so

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Speaker 1: often focuses on like, we can't really get inside people's heads,

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Speaker 1: so let's get as close to their faces as possible

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Speaker 1: and kind of study the nuances of what's happening on

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Speaker 1: their faces.

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Speaker 4: To go back to the sex scenes. I think, Tasha,

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Speaker 4: you have the right word primal to describe them. And

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Speaker 4: I think I think that's you know, that part of it,

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Speaker 4: the the really speaks to, you know, the poll of

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Speaker 4: Thomas to these characters. The other part of it, too,

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Speaker 4: is that is that Thomas is the one kind of

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Speaker 4: dictating the action as it were, right, I mean, this

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Speaker 4: is the Thomas is kind of in control, is sort

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Speaker 4: of the one sort of dictating as well. And I

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Speaker 4: think there's kind of a certain amount of power, maybe

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Speaker 4: you know, to someone to have someone who kind of like,

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Speaker 4: you know, ravaged them in the way that Thomas does.

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Speaker 4: I think that that, you know, I like the fact

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Speaker 4: that that that the film has this willingness to use physicality,

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Speaker 4: you know, as you know, a psychologic you know, to

397
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Speaker 4: explain some of the psychological or the relationship elements of

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Speaker 4: the movie, because it kind of is a great answer

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Speaker 4: to some of the kind of social media sort of

400
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Speaker 4: fussiness about sex scenes generally of being or nudity as

401
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Speaker 4: being unnecessary. It's like, well, you know, not the way,

402
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Speaker 4: you know, I think they're absolutely essential to this movie

403
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Speaker 4: and absolutely essential to kind of understanding Thomas and in

404
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Speaker 4: the in the kind of pole that he has on

405
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Speaker 4: these on these two characters. It's not like his personality

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Speaker 4: outside of outside the sack is necessarily all that winning

407
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Speaker 4: a lot of the time. So it's like they it's

408
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Speaker 4: like you kind of put up with, you know, with

409
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Speaker 4: a lot of stuff in order to kind of get

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Speaker 4: to the stuff that you kind of can't end up resisting. So,

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Speaker 4: you know, I appreciated that about the movie, just having

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Speaker 4: the courage to make Thomas as off putting as possible

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Speaker 4: while also making it plausible the characters that we do

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Speaker 4: think are are intelligent, rational, normal. I guess human beings

415
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Speaker 4: could still kind of find themselves in a relationship with him.

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Speaker 4: That's a huge achievement I think on the film's part.

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Speaker 1: I agree with you about a lot of that, but

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Speaker 1: I don't really agree about the idea of Thomas ravaging

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Speaker 1: people because of the three sex scenes that I can remember,

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Speaker 1: the one that takes pace place in the film offices,

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Speaker 1: where he's you know, just just clearly more in his

422
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Speaker 1: element to the degree that they bring him in turns

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Speaker 1: for a quick photo op to like to commemorate the

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Speaker 1: movie that they just made, and he's so reluctant, so dismissive,

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Speaker 1: So like, fine, as long as it doesn't take long whatever,

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Speaker 1: But he clearly sees it as kind of his place,

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Speaker 1: and he's very much the active and topping partner in that.

428
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Speaker 1: But in the first sex scene with with a Gath,

429
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Speaker 1: she she straddles him, she's the one who takes off

430
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Speaker 1: his clothes. He's like looking up at her waiting for

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Speaker 1: her actions. In the scene that where he has sex

432
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:35,560
Speaker 1: with with Martin, Martin is topping, And.

433
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 4: Oh, I didn't, I didn't. I thought it was the reverse.

434
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 3: No.

435
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,439
Speaker 1: No, that sequence in particular, especially given where it comes

436
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,920
Speaker 1: in the story, just feels very much like a sort

437
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:51,159
Speaker 1: of expiation, like he's he's apologizing by sort of like

438
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:55,399
Speaker 1: taking a more submissive role and like asking Martin to

439
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 1: kind of take out some of his frustrations and again

440
00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 1: what seems like a very primal way, at least that's

441
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 1: how I read it.

442
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:03,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is. It is quite a tangle body, I

443
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,400
Speaker 4: mean really, the again, the angle that we're getting there

444
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 4: is obscure, in my defense, obscures the face, obscures who's

445
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 4: who in a way, Uh, the angle that we get

446
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 4: to that scene, I mean that is you know, I

447
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,479
Speaker 4: mean obviously that is that is the reason why uh,

448
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,359
Speaker 4: their film got the rating that it did, but again,

449
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 4: sort of kudos to sex for including it, because you know,

450
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,600
Speaker 4: you don't necessarily see that every day, particularly in an

451
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,360
Speaker 4: American movie. I mean sexually, his sensibility is so European.

452
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,639
Speaker 4: I mean, this is such a cosmopolitan director. I mean

453
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 4: here he has cast, his three leads are all from

454
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:39,719
Speaker 4: different both the characters and the and the actors are

455
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,800
Speaker 4: all from different countries. And then you look at his

456
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 4: last movie Frankie, which is all said in you know, Portugal.

457
00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 4: I mean, this is a This is a director who

458
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 4: I think is pretty you know, has his has his

459
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 4: you know, thinks globally in terms of filmmaking and not

460
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 4: isn't necessarily following any trends or anything that you might

461
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 4: expect from you know, an American independent filmmaker.

462
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, the really weird connection I made while watching Passages

463
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:09,959
Speaker 1: was to the Wachowski's sensate, which you know, thematically and narratively.

464
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 1: I don't think there's a lot of a lot of

465
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 1: threads in common there, apart from again a fundamental idea

466
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: of like communication and connection, but in terms of like

467
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:23,159
Speaker 1: a pan European cast with some very open ideas about

468
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 1: sexuality and sensuality and the thread of bisexuality and just

469
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,479
Speaker 1: kind of the pan humanism attitude towards sex just really

470
00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,960
Speaker 1: reminded me enough of senseate that I went back and

471
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: dug that show up on Netflix and rewatched some scenes

472
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: because the carnal elements in particular just reminded me a

473
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 1: lot of some things that the Wachowskis did with that show.

474
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it's significant that not only is you know,

475
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 5: Tomas kind of free flowing the sexuality, but that, as

476
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 5: you mentioned Scott, that he's German, his husband is British,

477
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:00,760
Speaker 5: his lover is French.

478
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,360
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's.

479
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 5: Rebarked upon only occasionally, but for the most part, it's

480
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 5: just sort of taken as being this is the way

481
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 5: of things. People are who they are, they love who

482
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 5: they love, you know, they connect with who they connect with.

483
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 5: It's it's sort of just the way things are.

484
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 1: And they switch in and out of languages as as

485
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,439
Speaker 1: convenient and as expressive. You know, the idea in the

486
00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: moment that I'm trying to get across is going to

487
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: sound better in French, so I want to say it

488
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 1: in French.

489
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 3: I want to say real quick.

490
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 5: The screener that I got to watch from this, The

491
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,080
Speaker 5: subtitles were not turned on when I started the film

492
00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:35,360
Speaker 5: for the for the French sequences, and I thought, huh,

493
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:40,440
Speaker 5: interesting choice for Iris acts to like leave the French untranslated,

494
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 5: because it was really short scene early on where I

495
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 5: got this talking to her co workers in French. Now

496
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 5: I'm like, okay, it was like ten seconds, and then

497
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 5: later there's a long scene where people are talking in

498
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 5: French time. I'm thinking, I bet it's supposed to be subtitled,

499
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 5: and I hit the little button at the bottom of

500
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 5: the screener and said, oh, yeah, there it is, so yeah, anyway.

501
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,919
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I think I had the same experience.

502
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,640
Speaker 4: That was funny. It was when I had the same

503
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,399
Speaker 4: reaction like okay, all right, you know, it's fine to

504
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 4: know what he's saying.

505
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: Funny to me because I I got like three minutes

506
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: into the movie and then I went back turned on

507
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,639
Speaker 1: the subtitles and started from the beginning, because at the

508
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 1: at the beginning, you're just dealing with Thomas directing and

509
00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: a a lot.

510
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 4: That's very funny.

511
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of what he says is is off

512
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 1: screen and muttered in a way, and the subtitles were

513
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 1: really helpful in terms of deciphering who was talking and

514
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: all of this like subtle boch, like low rumbling. So

515
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: I had them all throughout, so I didn't have any

516
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 1: problem with the language switching. But the weird thing that

517
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: I thought was really smart and cool about the subtitles

518
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 1: was during the sex scenes they very explicitly labeled like

519
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: who was making noises? And during the sex scene in

520
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,719
Speaker 1: the film office, he's making a lot more noise than

521
00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 1: she is, especially at first. There's there's a point later

522
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:05,120
Speaker 1: in the act where she gets into it, but the

523
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,199
Speaker 1: subtitles kept saying things like he moans, he gasps, he

524
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: and so forth and so on, and throughout the entire film,

525
00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 1: the subtitles would be very explicit and specific about like

526
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: who was making a given like wordless noise, not always

527
00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 1: during the sex scenes, but very often during them, And

528
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: it honestly really made me aware of some dynamics that

529
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: I don't think I would have really noticed otherwise. It's like, Eh,

530
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:32,880
Speaker 1: this is a sex scene. They're both into it, they're

531
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,960
Speaker 1: both making noise like no when you pay attention to it,

532
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 1: there's a very clear narrative being told here about pleasure

533
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: and enjoyment and where it comes in and it's surprisingly

534
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 1: specific and very specifically directed, and I did not notice.

535
00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 1: I think that was just an interesting touch from the subtitles.

536
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 3: That's neat.

537
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, there's going to be quite a lot

538
00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 4: more to talk about here with Passages, but we should

539
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 4: take a break here to bring in Uh Sunday Bloddy

540
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 4: Sunday and talk about the connections. M hm.

541
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:28,639
Speaker 6: On this service, Flora, you make me shy hm.

542
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: I think I'm put say that's a lot. Imagine you

543
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 2: see twenty talks for you.

544
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 4: Now it's time for connections, when we bring these two

545
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 4: films together and talk about all the things they have

546
00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 4: in common. I guess the first thing is that dealing

547
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 4: with love triangle between two men and a woman, uh

548
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 4: and uh and kind of you know, not something you

549
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 4: see every day, but but the dynamics here comparing contrast

550
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 4: in a fascinating way that I think has you know,

551
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 4: a large extent you kind of do with the person

552
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 4: at the center. Again, I don't that's not good geometry

553
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 4: to talk about the center of a triangle, but you

554
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 4: get what I mean. You know, the difference between Thomas

555
00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 4: here in Passages, in Bob in Sunday Blody Sunday is

556
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 4: so vast in terms of they're just the way they

557
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 4: carry themselves, the way they see this relationship, and they're

558
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 4: they're they're opposites. I would say, really just because because

559
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 4: Bob is so is so relaxed, so casual, He's not

560
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,080
Speaker 4: needy at all. He could kind of take or leave.

561
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 4: He likes these relationships, he likes being in them. He's

562
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 4: you know, he feels good about it. He's limited himself

563
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 4: just a certain degree. He's clearly able to kind of

564
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 4: like extricate himself from these relationships easily by kind of

565
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 4: going off to America and being you know, he's a young,

566
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 4: non connected, free spirited person. And Thomas is the opposite

567
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 4: of that. Thomas is jerky and needy and doesn't really

568
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,480
Speaker 4: have any kind of plan. He kind of does everything

569
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 4: by the seat of his pants, and and you know,

570
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 4: he ends up in a place where he can't really

571
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 4: transition in anything. He is kind of stuck being who

572
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 4: he is.

573
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: They're both young, attractive artists, though, and I think that

574
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 1: there is in both of these movies just kind of

575
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: a thread of them bringing that kind of like artistic

576
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: energy into these relationships with in some cases older and

577
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 1: more established people. I think maybe in passages Martin it's

578
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 1: I think it's unclear how their ages differ, but Martin

579
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: certainly comes across as more world weary, you know, more

580
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: more settled in his ways, past the party stage of

581
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: life and ready for the go home at nine pm,

582
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: have a warm cup of tea and then go to

583
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 1: sleep at nine point thirty phase of life, as opposed

584
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: to the stay out, dance with a stranger and then

585
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 1: take them home phase of life. So, you know, I

586
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: think that they do have some things in common in

587
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: terms of the charisma that draws people to them, and

588
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: in terms of not really being ready to settle or

589
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: seeing any need whatsoever to settle into any kind of

590
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:31,400
Speaker 1: regularity with a relationship. Like they're they're getting what they want.

591
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: Maybe the difference is that there's a sense that Bob

592
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 1: is getting what he wants in terms of having two

593
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 1: relationships that he considers stable that separately give give him

594
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: what he wants, and he feels at least that he's

595
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 1: able to balance them even if neither partner is entirely

596
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 1: satisfied with what they're getting. Whereas Tomas switches back and

597
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: forth until late in the film when he kind of

598
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: sees a way to have it all. He's kind of

599
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: an all or not thing, one or the other kind

600
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: of guy who runs back and forth between them and

601
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 1: seemingly is only present for the person that he's physically

602
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: with and has just about forgotten about the other person,

603
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 1: to the point where at one point he he runs

604
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 1: off to be with with Martin, comes back to being

605
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: in bed with a goth and it just seems to

606
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: have it just doesn't seem to have occurred to him.

607
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: They're staying together, that she knows exactly where he is,

608
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 1: that the walls are thin.

609
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, she can hear him.

610
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 4: Oh my god.

611
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I find myself asking about both

612
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,680
Speaker 5: of these characters, both Thomas and Bob. You know how

613
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 5: much they enhance the lives of the other two people.

614
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 5: You know, one could say that, certainly in Anybody Sunday,

615
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 5: that the other two characters feel like, like like Bob

616
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 5: makes their lives better in some way, that they feel

617
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 5: sad when he's gone, that they you know that they

618
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,719
Speaker 5: they miss him. There's there's something that about him they

619
00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 5: feel they need. I mean, but I guess you probably

620
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 5: could say that the same is true of Tomas with

621
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 5: Martin and a goth. Even though we see him as

622
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 5: being destructive, I think that he gives them something that

623
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 5: they're that they're looking for. And I don't know, like

624
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 5: you've both have pointed out before, may maybe it's excitement,

625
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 5: maybe it's sex, but you know, there's something something there

626
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 5: that makes their lives more interesting. But I think maybe

627
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 5: that's part of like the decision to make him the focus,

628
00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 5: to make Tomas the focus of passages, whereas Bob is

629
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 5: not the focus of anybody's Sunday. If you were to

630
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 5: make anybody Sunday and make Bob the focus, you might

631
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 5: have an entirely different perspective on him. He might seem

632
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 5: like a jerk.

633
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 3: I don't know.

634
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 4: Oh, that's interesting.

635
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: I think an interesting aspect of that in these movies is,

636
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: you know, they're they're examining and discarding heteronormativity. They're examining

637
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: and kind of discarding there's probably word for monogamous normativity.

638
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:54,800
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I don't think either of

639
00:33:54,840 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: them really examine what it means to be in a relationship,

640
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,280
Speaker 1: like what you get out of a relationship, to the

641
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 1: degree that I feel like the sequence with the kids

642
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: where Bob and Alex are in like entertaining these Hellians

643
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: for hours and hours upon end, and he goes to leave,

644
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 1: and she immediately gets upset, and it's not you're leaving

645
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:22,680
Speaker 1: me alone with these kids. You're leaving me alone to

646
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: take care of like five kids, a monkey, and a

647
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,200
Speaker 1: dog in a chaos house. Like she doesn't make any

648
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: sort of practical look I need you here appeal. She

649
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: just says, wait, you're going, and she knows immediately where

650
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 1: he's going and kind of teases him about it. But

651
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,359
Speaker 1: there isn't really an examination of like what it means

652
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: to have him there, you know, whether she's just expecting,

653
00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 1: like you're my partner, there's there's some specific reason that

654
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: I need you. She just misses him, you know, she

655
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 1: doesn't want him to not be there, and she doesn't

656
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,959
Speaker 1: talk about why at all. And I just I found

657
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: that in interesting labs because it just it's it's like

658
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 1: a situation where anybody would be like, I you agree

659
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 1: to do this, and I can't manage this myself. You

660
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,760
Speaker 1: can't run off to have sex with your other partner

661
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,720
Speaker 1: and leave me with one hundred percent of this situation

662
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: we both agreed to. But none of that comes up.

663
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: It's just kind of but I expected, you know, for

664
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 1: us to share this equally, and I think that's something

665
00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: that kind of extends through all four relationships in both

666
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 1: of these films, is just sort of there's an assumption

667
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 1: that if you're with somebody, you should be with them

668
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,360
Speaker 1: one hundred percent of the time and meet their needs.

669
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: And a lot of people here are just not getting

670
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: their needs met, not in a very specific I wanted

671
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 1: you here for this kind of way, although there is

672
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,200
Speaker 1: a little bit of that that happens here and there,

673
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,359
Speaker 1: but just sort of in the broader like why why

674
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 1: does your partner have to be everything to you? Why

675
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,720
Speaker 1: does your partner have to fill all over those blanks

676
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: in your life? And that's something I felt was missing

677
00:35:58,280 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: a little bit in both of these films, and I

678
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: think I think towards the end Sunday Bloody Sunday, especially

679
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: in the conversation with Alex and her mom starts exploring that,

680
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 1: starts talking about it directly and thinking about it. But

681
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: it's something I kind of would have liked to extend

682
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: more throughout both of these films.

683
00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:18,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, the whole conversation where her mom talks about liking hippies,

684
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 5: and then they have the conversation about where the mom

685
00:36:21,719 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 5: says that you know, the the spouse is not everything,

686
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 5: that's not you can't you don't you expect Alex expects

687
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 5: the person to be everything, and.

688
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:31,479
Speaker 3: That's just never going to happen. So yeah, I agree

689
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 3: with that.

690
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,839
Speaker 4: To kind of go back to Sunday, Bluddy Sunday. One

691
00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 4: of the things that I think separates Daniel and Alex

692
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 4: from a Gotha and Martin is I think that I

693
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 4: think Daniel and Alex are fundamentally quite lonely. I mean,

694
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 4: I think I think their loneliness is something that is

695
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 4: that the film emphasizes quite a bit, rather than say

696
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 4: a need or desire, which which they may which they

697
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 4: certainly have. For this young guy, he probably makes them

698
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 4: feel young. But you just get a sense of, like

699
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,920
Speaker 4: you know, of Daniel, who is living in the closets

700
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:11,880
Speaker 4: and who's who's older, and Alex, who's who's recently divorced

701
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 4: and kind of uncertain of where she's going to go

702
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 4: in her life. I think like he is feeling that

703
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 4: need of making them not feel lonely, making them feel desired,

704
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 4: and then when he goes away, they have to kind

705
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 4: of confront you know, sort of the emptiness of their lives.

706
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,759
Speaker 4: And I don't necessarily think that's true of a Goth

707
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:31,880
Speaker 4: and Martin that that's kind of a little bit of

708
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 4: a different dynamic there.

709
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:33,879
Speaker 3: That's true.

710
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 5: We do see a goth with her her do we

711
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 5: see more of her job, we see her with the

712
00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 5: friend she has there. And then with Tomas, of course,

713
00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 5: we see him going out with with other guys, both

714
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,239
Speaker 5: romantically but also just as friends, you know, kind of

715
00:37:47,239 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 5: hanging out and doing stuff. So yeah, I mean you

716
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 5: get the sense that, especially with Martin, you sort of

717
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 5: get the sense that when Tomas, you know, when his

718
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 5: eye starts to roam, Martin's like, okay, yeah, fine, whatever.

719
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:01,439
Speaker 5: You know, I got other options, other options.

720
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 3: In my life beyond this besides you.

721
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a transitional phase for sure, and passages. You

722
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 4: can maybe feel reasonably confident by the end that that

723
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,520
Speaker 4: that as destructive as Thomas has been, that his partners

724
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 4: are have maybe a better future, will find their way

725
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 4: somehow in a way that he's not capable of doing so.

726
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: Speaking of other options, one of the big connections that

727
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: struck me and in both of these films and in

728
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: their navigation of kind of back and forth love triangles,

729
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 1: is that both of them have moments where the people

730
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,280
Speaker 1: on the I don't know the wings of the triangle.

731
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,239
Speaker 1: We're still trying to figure out exactly how you can

732
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: use like one word to designate the part of parts

733
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: of a triangle. Okay, the non high pot news legs

734
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 1: whatever they're called, mathematicians, head us up the no please dopa,

735
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 1: Neil degres Tyson, we need to hear from you right

736
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,800
Speaker 1: now about this. Yeah, Alex gets a lover, and despite

737
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:08,440
Speaker 1: what you said, Scott about Bob being just like completely

738
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 1: open and not jealous and not needy, when he shows

739
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 1: up at her house and her lover's there and she

740
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,319
Speaker 1: casually introduces him, he's taken aback and he doesn't make

741
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: a scene, but he does seem down. He seems like

742
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: taken aback and he says, I expected you to be

743
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: alone at this time of day. He kind of visually

744
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: withdraws from her, and she's being very cheerful about the

745
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,320
Speaker 1: whole fire thing, but he's clearly not happy in the

746
00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:39,720
Speaker 1: same sort of way we see Thomas seeming very happy

747
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 1: with a goth and the new relationship energy that he's

748
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 1: gotten while still wanting to hang on to Martin, still

749
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: kind of like using the shared house as a wedge

750
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: to try to force himself back into Martin's life over

751
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 1: and over. But when Martin gets a new lover, he's

752
00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 1: openly jealous and it drives him back to Martin because

753
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 1: he wants to keep his hands on him. You know,

754
00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: he doesn't want to let go of the thing that

755
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,240
Speaker 1: he consciously let go of. He is fine with pushing

756
00:40:09,239 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 1: it away, but he doesn't want it taken away from him,

757
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: and he certainly doesn't want it taken away from him

758
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,919
Speaker 1: in a permanent way, as opposed to I'm just I'm

759
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,160
Speaker 1: with somebody else for a while now because I feel

760
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: like it. So I think that that kind of you know,

761
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:23,759
Speaker 1: what's good for the goose is good for the gander

762
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 1: feeling of both of these movies of you know, your

763
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 1: your swing shifter suddenly seeing that he's not the be

764
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 1: all and end all of his two partner's life and

765
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: he can potentially be replaced, and then like navigating the

766
00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:43,560
Speaker 1: differences between those those two like extra lovers, the metamors

767
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: in this relationship is just an interesting dynamic to all

768
00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:47,279
Speaker 1: of it.

769
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, and at least to one of the good laughs

770
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 4: in Passages Too, which is which is Tomas's assessment of

771
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 4: Martin's Lover's book. It's just based on god knows of

772
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 4: like two paid he's read out of like an infinite

773
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 4: just link book. He's even read that, and just how

774
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 4: how terrible book it is, you know, because he's just

775
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 4: so he can't hide it. He's just he's not he's

776
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 4: not very grown up, and so he just expresses himself

777
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 4: with you know, a blanket hostility because he's jealous. I

778
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,799
Speaker 4: love that little detail and h and it's it really

779
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,719
Speaker 4: is helpful. That's kind of maybe a thing that Passages

780
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 4: has over Sunday Bloody Sunday is that it does have

781
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 4: humor in it. There's not a lot of laughs, not

782
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 4: a lot of laughs and Sunday Bloody Sunday, I mean

783
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:37,120
Speaker 4: a couple, I guess, but but it's not. I think

784
00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:40,600
Speaker 4: having a little bit of that you know, dark comedy,

785
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 4: you know, gives Passages a lift in certain moments.

786
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:45,520
Speaker 5: You know, I was thinking a little bit while you

787
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,560
Speaker 5: guys were talking about what we see of their art

788
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,479
Speaker 5: in both of these films, and you know, Bob makes

789
00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 5: these little sculptures, right these little like you know, a

790
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 5: lot of different art projects we see, and a lot

791
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 5: of them seem to involve macareical processes that will add

792
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 5: color or design to pre existing like glass tubes or

793
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 5: a little spirograph type piece of paper that he has

794
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 5: set up in his apartment, you know, that kind of stuff,

795
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 5: and that's an interesting thing to do. It's like he's

796
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 5: not himself making the art. He's making sort of the

797
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 5: vessel through which the art is brought into the world

798
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 5: through some mechanical process. So that's what we see of Bob,

799
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 5: which is kind of interesting, you know, to see it

800
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 5: in the context of the way he relates to other people,

801
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 5: where he's sort of like a catalyst, almost more so

802
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 5: than somebody who is totally present. Where on the flip side,

803
00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:38,879
Speaker 5: we see Tamas at the very beginning of the film,

804
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 5: we first introduced to him being really just a complete jerk,

805
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,760
Speaker 5: you know, on the on the movie set, bossing people around,

806
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 5: trying to get something very specific from them that he

807
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 5: can't quite seem to be able to get, which is

808
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 5: also kind of very telling for how he kind of

809
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 5: is for the rest of the film with his lovers.

810
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 3: That he's like he's.

811
00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,320
Speaker 5: Very He's very you know, kind of demanding, but also

812
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 5: never really satisfied, you know, with with with what he gets.

813
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 3: So anyway, I just thought that was interesting.

814
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 4: It's walk down the staircase staircase.

815
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:13,240
Speaker 1: We also get sequences of both of them being maybe

816
00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:16,399
Speaker 1: a little insecure about the audience for their art and

817
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: maybe a little mercenary about how do I make this

818
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: sell in America? You know, how do I how do

819
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 1: I ensure the widest possible audience for this because this

820
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,000
Speaker 1: is what's going to enable me to continue to make

821
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: a living. And you know, with Bob, it's asking questions

822
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:36,600
Speaker 1: like would an American corporation rather have this kind of

823
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:38,840
Speaker 1: art on the wall or like as a sort of

824
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 1: mobile thing that could move around the office and pose

825
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 1: in different places. With Tamas, it's fussing about screenings. You know,

826
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 1: this screening didn't go well, this screening did go well.

827
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: We we think we're going to sell this film. We

828
00:43:50,680 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 1: think we're not going to sell this film. So both

829
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 1: of them, you know, even if they aren't terribly insecure

830
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: about their relationships, most of the time, they are a

831
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 1: little in secure about not necessarily whether they're great artists,

832
00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 1: but whether they're going to be financially successful artists and

833
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 1: keep doing it, which is just interesting. Thomas's resentment of

834
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 1: the book, to me, is just like a pure artistic

835
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 1: like you not only have another lover, but he created

836
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:26,080
Speaker 1: this thing that impresses you intellectually and that I maybe

837
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,920
Speaker 1: not smart enough to get it. And a goth is

838
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: also reading it and also thinks it's smart and engaging,

839
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:36,839
Speaker 1: and that just that makes it even worse. Like everybody

840
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: but him is capable of reading this book and enjoying it,

841
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 1: And I think there's just an insecurity there about what

842
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 1: he creates and how it compares to what other people create.

843
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: But with both of them, it's it's just about the audience,

844
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,399
Speaker 1: you know. It's it's not so much about We don't

845
00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: get to hear either of them saying anything about the

846
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: emotional meaning of their art or why they create art.

847
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 4: I can't imagine Thomas's film speed anything at all, just

848
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:07,240
Speaker 4: because there's no he really is they have pocket control

849
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,839
Speaker 4: of hands, Yeah, what do we do with my hands? Yeah?

850
00:45:11,960 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 4: It's just like, I mean, he's somebody who is really

851
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 4: incapable of suppressing any thought that he has. It's all

852
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,399
Speaker 4: just everything is right on the surface, with him, which

853
00:45:22,440 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 4: is not necessarily something we associate with a good filmmaker.

854
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 4: Good filmmakers, you hope are going to be a little

855
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,839
Speaker 4: more it sub little more observant of other people. I mean,

856
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 4: all of these qualities that he is that Thomas is not.

857
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:35,879
Speaker 4: But this is not his first film so that he's

858
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:38,399
Speaker 4: making in the movie, so maybe he's got some good

859
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 4: instincts as far as that goes. One of the things

860
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 4: I kind of wanted to touch on though in the movie.

861
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 4: It has to do with kind of social and cinematic mores,

862
00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 4: particularly with regards to the two gay relationships and the

863
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:57,120
Speaker 4: expression of thereof because I think you have this big

864
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,919
Speaker 4: sort of kiss between Peter Finch in Murray Head, which

865
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 4: I think was, you know, a reasonably big deal at

866
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:08,120
Speaker 4: the time, and then you know, cut to fifty two

867
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 4: years later and and you know, you get this extremely graphic,

868
00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:17,760
Speaker 4: explicit sex scene between two men, and you notice how

869
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 4: thoroughly the world has changed. I was kind of just

870
00:46:21,239 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 4: curious what your impression of that was in terms of

871
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 4: also how well they express the relationships between these two

872
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:29,879
Speaker 4: men in both movies too, because I mean, that's really

873
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:31,920
Speaker 4: the point of having them there is is to kind

874
00:46:31,960 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 4: of tell us how these show us. I guess how

875
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 4: these how these men kind of feel about each other.

876
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 1: I will just say again, just briefly, you keep talking

877
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 1: about the sex scenes being like really graphic. They're they're

878
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: not that graphic. If you think about it, this is

879
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:51,280
Speaker 1: not blues the warmest color. This is not gasper no way. Essentially,

880
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: there is no pain.

881
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 4: That's okay, those are you know, it's not not go.

882
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:01,800
Speaker 1: Ahead, no, that's it's just I think it's worth noting

883
00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: that that you're not seeing Dix. You know you're you're

884
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:09,839
Speaker 1: seeing You're seeing intimacy and like an unself consciousness, like

885
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: there are no artfully placed sheets covering up like just

886
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 1: butt cleft somehow positioned like during sex, Like there's an

887
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 1: unself consciousness about it that that just feels like, you know,

888
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: has sex, like nobody's watching and like there isn't a

889
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: camera right here. But it also is an X rated

890
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: and you know, we we have seen I don't know,

891
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: you know, cruising comes to mind with its insert shots.

892
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: I guess pun maybe belatedly intended there or as I say,

893
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 1: like Gaspernoe movies, it's not unheard of to have graphic

894
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 1: sex or nudity in European films with men, and I

895
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 1: just I want to make sure that we're I guess

896
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,960
Speaker 1: kind of noting here that like blue is the warmest

897
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: color in particular, was considerably more graphic. And uh, sure,

898
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:07,240
Speaker 1: how does one say in your face, like, yeah.

899
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 4: That was but that was like that was kind of

900
00:48:08,880 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 4: like the centerpiece of the of the movie. And uh, this.

901
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 1: Is not a criticism, This is just sort of an obstcrration.

902
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 4: Sure, yeah, I'm not complaining.

903
00:48:18,600 --> 00:48:21,120
Speaker 5: I was just thinking about an example of you know,

904
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 5: not quite as graphic example, but also sort of a

905
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 5: a gave romance that's explicit in a similar kind of way,

906
00:48:29,440 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 5: which is uh, Andrew Haiges's Weekend, which begins begins with

907
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 5: these two men picking each other up and having sex,

908
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 5: and then the rest of the movie is you know,

909
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:38,200
Speaker 5: them kind of getting to know each other over the

910
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 5: course of the of the weekend. But it's important in

911
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 5: that film that the sex is for graph that's the

912
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,399
Speaker 5: first thing, because that's what begins at all.

913
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 3: And it is very kind of frank, you know, in

914
00:48:48,080 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 3: a way you don't usually see.

915
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:51,800
Speaker 5: So but we're I guess we're getting off the topic

916
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 5: of these films as supposed to that that was not

917
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 5: one of the ones I would say when it comes

918
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 5: to anybody. Sunday, I was impressed, I guess by sort

919
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 5: of how. I mean, obviously it's foregrounded, right, the kiss is,

920
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 5: he walks in the door, they have a long kiss.

921
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:07,960
Speaker 5: It's clear that they want to get this early in

922
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:11,080
Speaker 5: the film, and they want it to be lengthy. It's

923
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 5: not a little peck on the cheek. It's got to

924
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:16,720
Speaker 5: be a legitimate romantic smooch. That said, it does feel

925
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 5: like very natural. It does feel like these guys have

926
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:21,279
Speaker 5: done this before. It's not like two actors who are

927
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 5: coming together and saying, you know, and now we shall kiss.

928
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 5: And I think that quality also is true in passages

929
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,839
Speaker 5: that the sex scenes are sort of like these guys

930
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 5: know what they're doing, like you know, this is this

931
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 5: is it is foregrounded. I mean, I think it's it

932
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:39,839
Speaker 5: is purposeful that the sheet drops, that the sheet falls

933
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 5: down far enough that you see thrusting butts. But it

934
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 5: also feels like, you know, these guys are just doing it.

935
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 5: This is what they do, you know, this is how

936
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 5: they how they express their sexuality. So yeah, I mean,

937
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 5: obviously you've come a long way in what gets shown,

938
00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 5: but I think in the way that the movie depicts it.

939
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 5: Part of what makes Sunnybody's Sunday for the time is

940
00:50:01,600 --> 00:50:03,680
Speaker 5: that it is kind of so matter of fact.

941
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:07,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, with the big kiss in Sunday Bloody Sunday. One

942
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:12,279
Speaker 1: of the things that I noticed about it was it's telegraphed.

943
00:50:12,360 --> 00:50:15,799
Speaker 1: You know, from the moment that Bob walks in, he

944
00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:19,680
Speaker 1: and Daniel touch each other, like they stand inside each

945
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:24,719
Speaker 1: other's personal bubbles, and there's like there's face touching. It's

946
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: not a surprise when they kiss. It's not out of

947
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: the blue. It's not a shock moment. Like they just

948
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 1: play as people who are affectionate with each other, who

949
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 1: know each other well, who are like emotionally glad to

950
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: see each other, and nothing about it comes across as

951
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 1: like stiff or staged. There's also you know, there's no

952
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:45,359
Speaker 1: graphic sex in Sunday Bloody Sunday, but there's more skin

953
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: than I was expecting. There are more scenes in the bedrooms,

954
00:50:49,360 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: you know, with bodies kind of decorously covered, but like

955
00:50:53,680 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 1: also just a fair bit of skin. That movie is

956
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,439
Speaker 1: also not particularly self conscious about people in bed It's

957
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 1: just not quite as aggressive.

958
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 5: And there is actually a full front of male nudity

959
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 5: in that film, but behind a shower curtain, but still

960
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 5: it's there.

961
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I to go to that. I think,

962
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,839
Speaker 4: I think I really like that kiss between Peter Finch

963
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,839
Speaker 4: and Murray Head. I feel like it's it's foregrounded, it's

964
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,319
Speaker 4: it's you know, you think about the sexual politics at

965
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 4: the time, you know, I mean, there's a there's a

966
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 4: level of calculation that has to kind of go into it,

967
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 4: right in terms of like what can we depict in

968
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:28,359
Speaker 4: a movie in nineteen seventy one, and and so there's

969
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 4: a certain kind of boldness to it. But also at

970
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 4: the same time, there is a passion that those two

971
00:51:36,719 --> 00:51:40,720
Speaker 4: actors tap in a very real, convincing way that seems

972
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 4: so far ahead of its time, because if we think

973
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:47,359
Speaker 4: about so many movies, like from the nineties, even the

974
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:53,400
Speaker 4: way sort of gay relationships were expressed were so comparatively timid.

975
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:55,840
Speaker 4: Even to a kiss like that, you know, it just

976
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 4: became you just wonder, like these people ever have sex?

977
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 4: Like what is the deal with these people? Like they

978
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:04,640
Speaker 4: don't what's going on here? Because they're not We're just

979
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:06,560
Speaker 4: not getting very much. And so so I kind of

980
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:10,719
Speaker 4: appreciate it, Sunday for having for having that moment, and

981
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:13,800
Speaker 4: I think that gives us enough of It just feels

982
00:52:13,840 --> 00:52:16,319
Speaker 4: honest in a way, you know. And of course, you know,

983
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 4: now a movie like Passages, which is independent, which can

984
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 4: be released, you know, without a rating, you know, in

985
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:27,480
Speaker 4: ourt houses, the stakes are not quite as high for

986
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 4: it in terms of the politics of it. So it

987
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 4: really it's really kind of can kind of be free

988
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 4: to express the connection between these men physically without fear

989
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:42,359
Speaker 4: of too many repercussions other than I guess getting an

990
00:52:42,440 --> 00:52:44,479
Speaker 4: NC seventeen that it's just not even going to run

991
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 4: with anyway. So what what other connections are worth making here, Tasha,

992
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:50,600
Speaker 4: I think.

993
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 1: It just lightly. It's it's worth noticing that both of

994
00:52:53,520 --> 00:52:58,320
Speaker 1: these movies have their central like swing character leaving the country.

995
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 1: There's a sort of threat of my job may call

996
00:53:03,160 --> 00:53:07,319
Speaker 1: me away to a very far away place, and both

997
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:10,359
Speaker 1: of the characters seem pretty lackadaisical about the whole thing.

998
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 1: You know, it might or might not happen. It doesn't

999
00:53:13,239 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 1: feel like something they're actively working towards. But both of

1000
00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:19,960
Speaker 1: them seem pretty indifferent to the effect that it's going

1001
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,320
Speaker 1: to have on their lovers. Both of them seem to

1002
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 1: kind of take the attitude that, you know, as much

1003
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,240
Speaker 1: as you might say, Bob is like much more open

1004
00:53:28,320 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 1: and much more at least trying to communicate and connect,

1005
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 1: and much kinder to his lovers. He just has a

1006
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 1: very blase attitude I guess about like, you know, at

1007
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 1: any moment, I might leave the country, and if so,

1008
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:46,120
Speaker 1: I have no idea when to be coming back. And

1009
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 1: both of them kind of have the attitude of you know,

1010
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 1: it'll be fine because I'll be back someday. But in

1011
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:56,759
Speaker 1: terms of like reassuring their lovers about their relationships or

1012
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 1: their future or their presence, neither of them really have

1013
00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:02,480
Speaker 1: much to say about it. Both of them seem to

1014
00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:04,879
Speaker 1: be pretty caught up and well, my career may take

1015
00:54:04,880 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 1: me away, and that it'd be cool, and oh are

1016
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 1: there other considerations? I hadn't thought about that, and I'm

1017
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:10,719
Speaker 1: still not thinking about it.

1018
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:12,759
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, I mean with Bob, it's sort of like,

1019
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 4: all right, we know the terms of this, these relationships,

1020
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 4: like they've been said in a way, and I mean,

1021
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:22,680
Speaker 4: obviously you can't extract yourself from from relationship without a

1022
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 4: certain amount of pain, but like, but it is sort

1023
00:54:26,280 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 4: of that. I think it is set up, particularly with

1024
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 4: his age and with you know, the casualness with which

1025
00:54:31,640 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 4: he goes back and forth between these two lovers, that

1026
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,440
Speaker 4: that it's just like this is this is not permanent,

1027
00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,680
Speaker 4: it's not sustainable, it's not going to last forever. This

1028
00:54:40,800 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 4: is just kind of a thing and it can end,

1029
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 4: and it's going to end by me leaving. And that's that, yeah,

1030
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:47,399
Speaker 4: which is healthy in its way.

1031
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,319
Speaker 1: Well, here's something that is is not healthy, and that

1032
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 1: interested me. Both of these movies have just a real

1033
00:54:56,120 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 1: theme of people suppressing their jealousy. I think all four

1034
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:04,799
Speaker 1: of the partners, the outside partners in both of these

1035
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 1: movies have either sustained or at least momentary moments where

1036
00:55:10,719 --> 00:55:15,320
Speaker 1: they are just they very clearly know that their partners

1037
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 1: going to the other person, and they generally feel they

1038
00:55:18,840 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: often feel like they can't express that. Like in Sunday,

1039
00:55:22,640 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 1: Bloody Sunday, it almost feels like a polititest thing, you know,

1040
00:55:25,800 --> 00:55:29,600
Speaker 1: where if we're not as bohemian as the family with

1041
00:55:29,640 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 1: the pot smoking kids, at least we're bohemian enough to

1042
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 1: know me to acknowledge that you have another person on

1043
00:55:38,239 --> 00:55:41,959
Speaker 1: the side. And if I get grabby or needy about

1044
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 1: this relationship, I'll drive you away. So in passages, I

1045
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 1: think there's a lot more overt jealousy. But it seems

1046
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 1: like all of the partners are kind of like tamping

1047
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:55,319
Speaker 1: down their own needs and their own desires to some

1048
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 1: degree at various points, maybe Martin the least of all,

1049
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,919
Speaker 1: because he is just so close to done with this.

1050
00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 1: But I just I feel like there's a running attitude

1051
00:56:07,120 --> 00:56:11,799
Speaker 1: of objecting to this too openly would be like the

1052
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:16,840
Speaker 1: class A. It would be, you know, being too greedy

1053
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 1: about this person in my life, and I risk losing

1054
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 1: everything if I want more, and yet I want more,

1055
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,520
Speaker 1: and watching all of these characters just sort of struggle

1056
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:30,880
Speaker 1: with these very natural feelings of my partner isn't prioritizing me.

1057
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 1: They're prioritizing somebody else. Maybe they're lying to me about it,

1058
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:38,080
Speaker 1: maybe they're just refusing to talk about it. But there's

1059
00:56:38,080 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 1: something here that I feel like I can't express because

1060
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,560
Speaker 1: if I do, I'll be a bad person. Is I

1061
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 1: think something that resonates through both of these movies a lot.

1062
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, they don't want to be square too, right, I mean,

1063
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 4: none of them. I want to feel like that I mean,

1064
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:57,279
Speaker 4: they're an unconventional relationships, an unconventional circumstance. They don't want

1065
00:56:57,320 --> 00:57:00,120
Speaker 4: to come across as fuddy duddies or whatever who are

1066
00:57:00,160 --> 00:57:03,839
Speaker 4: going to be not cool in bohemian and not at

1067
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:06,759
Speaker 4: allow a certain amount of sexual freedom on the part

1068
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 4: of this person at the center that they're you know,

1069
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 4: that they care about more than they can say. So

1070
00:57:12,640 --> 00:57:14,080
Speaker 4: I find that very interesting.

1071
00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 3: You know.

1072
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,400
Speaker 4: The other thing, one thing, one other kind of thing

1073
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:19,560
Speaker 4: we never really talked about, is that we do get

1074
00:57:19,560 --> 00:57:22,000
Speaker 4: in both of these movies. A scene between our two

1075
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 4: you know, in fact in Fact and the scene and

1076
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 4: the scene in Passages is like one of my, if

1077
00:57:27,760 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 4: not my favorite scene in the movie, certainly one of

1078
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 4: my favorites. I really really love it because it's kind

1079
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 4: of like, oh, like it's so civil in a way,

1080
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 4: and it's just it's like, yeah, I think they see

1081
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:39,280
Speaker 4: each other, but of course I guess she is a

1082
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:41,960
Speaker 4: you know, a goth, has a piece of information that

1083
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 4: about the fate of her of her child, I guess,

1084
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:51,080
Speaker 4: or would be child. That that kind of comes across

1085
00:57:51,080 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 4: in that scene. But like, I find it fascinating both

1086
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 4: scenes between these characters who are who are romantic rivals

1087
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 4: in a way, but also who can kind of see

1088
00:58:00,840 --> 00:58:03,600
Speaker 4: each other and know what they've been through.

1089
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1090
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 5: What I like about the passages seen is that despite

1091
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 5: their the information exchanged and despite the the honesty between them,

1092
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:13,600
Speaker 5: there's also like kind of a very clear sense of, hey,

1093
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 5: we're not going to be friends, you know what I mean.

1094
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 5: It's like like like you could see at the end

1095
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,720
Speaker 5: of Sunnybody Sunny, you can imagine a world in which

1096
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 5: you know, Alex and Daniel meet for tea, you know, occasionally,

1097
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 5: and because they have so much sort of a lot

1098
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:30,120
Speaker 5: in common, I really don't see even though they might

1099
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:32,680
Speaker 5: have a lot in common, there's a sense of like, yeah,

1100
00:58:32,720 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 5: just because we have this one connection, we're not going

1101
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,240
Speaker 5: to be there's a line beyond which we're not going

1102
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 5: to go in terms of sharing our lives with each other.

1103
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, hobs the Hobsons are the Hobson's kind of

1104
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 4: are kind of are are still that connective tissue you know,

1105
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 4: Thomas is not there anymore, So it just doesn't make.

1106
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 1: Any Yes, So there's also the element there where you know,

1107
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 1: Thomas very clearly was angling towards a situation where they

1108
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 1: the three of them would just be sort of a

1109
00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 1: happy throutle building a life together, and he would have

1110
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:05,000
Speaker 1: everything he wanted and nobody got nobody would get to

1111
00:59:05,040 --> 00:59:07,400
Speaker 1: be jealous because they would all be around each other.

1112
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 1: That scene between Martin and Agathe is devastating because it

1113
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 1: just shows how impossible that dream really was, and how

1114
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 1: one of them realized it and one of them didn't,

1115
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 1: and one of them has control of the situation and

1116
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:26,280
Speaker 1: one of them doesn't, and watching the collision of those

1117
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 1: ideas is I think you're right, Scott. I think it's

1118
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 1: the emotional core of the movie. And it's pretty telling

1119
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 1: that the emotional core of the movie comes when our

1120
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 1: kind of central character is completely absent.

1121
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:41,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure. So is this your term thruffle? You're

1122
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:43,600
Speaker 4: using a word thruffle.

1123
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 1: Throutle like a couple three, you know, with three? Yeah,

1124
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 1: trouble trouble, not truffle.

1125
00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:53,440
Speaker 3: Thrufle like supple tuble.

1126
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 1: Okay, this is definitely a road that we could spend

1127
00:59:57,720 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes onto it.

1128
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:05,440
Speaker 4: Absolutely. I'd never heard it before. I still don't unclear

1129
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:08,880
Speaker 4: on how to pronounce it, but it seems like it's useful.

1130
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 5: That when you pronounce the word couple, you say kuffle trouble. No, okay,

1131
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 5: pronounce the word three. Pronounce the word three, throuple. There

1132
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:21,320
Speaker 5: you go, three couple, tulele okay. All right.

1133
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:25,680
Speaker 1: Well, well, next week on the Next Picture Show will

1134
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:29,439
Speaker 1: introduce you to a lot more polyamory terminology. But it's

1135
01:00:29,480 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 1: it's gonna We're gonna have to get Scott a dictionary first.

1136
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 1: Another connection that I did promise we would talk about

1137
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:39,600
Speaker 1: in the first half of this conversation was just the

1138
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:42,880
Speaker 1: question of longing for children in both of these cases.

1139
01:00:42,920 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 1: And my question for you is whether you think Alex

1140
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 1: wants children. I think that a Goth is sort of

1141
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 1: back and forth on it, as we see Martin explicitly

1142
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:57,440
Speaker 1: wants children, but Alex is the big question mark for me.

1143
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:01,720
Speaker 4: Oh, I would say no. Do you think there's some

1144
01:01:02,320 --> 01:01:05,080
Speaker 4: indication that she would, I mean her ability.

1145
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:09,160
Speaker 1: To I mean, I think the all of the sequences

1146
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:12,640
Speaker 1: where they're where she's taking care of the kids, like

1147
01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 1: I think that we're certainly supposed to be thinking about

1148
01:01:16,720 --> 01:01:18,720
Speaker 1: that during some of those sequences.

1149
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean with a Goth, it's kind of

1150
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:25,720
Speaker 4: like she it's it's an expression of their of their relationship,

1151
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 4: of her wanting that relationship to be grounded in some

1152
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 4: way and him and wants to be kind of a

1153
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:35,320
Speaker 4: permanent part of her life and to be a coparent

1154
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 4: with her. And when that ends, the pregnancy ends, right.

1155
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 1: I just think it's the big question mark here is

1156
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:46,400
Speaker 1: Alex's relationship with those kids, Whether it's pushing her away

1157
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 1: from wanting children, whether it's filling any gap that she

1158
01:01:49,080 --> 01:01:52,800
Speaker 1: ever could have had towards wanting children, whether it's, you know,

1159
01:01:53,800 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 1: just something that she's debating herself. I'm not sure that

1160
01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 1: we get enough data on it, and given how much

1161
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 1: of an underlined point it is in Passages, I just

1162
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:07,360
Speaker 1: feel like it's an important thing here.

1163
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 4: Well, so you know, Next Picture Show listeners, if you

1164
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 4: want to see some movies about Thruples Sunday, Bloody Sunday

1165
01:02:16,240 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 4: is streaming on Amazon Prime. It's streaming with ads on

1166
01:02:20,040 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 4: Pluto TV and Tuby, and is a rentable through Voodoo.

1167
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 4: It's also available on Criterion DVD and Blu Ray. Passages

1168
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:29,720
Speaker 4: is currently in theaters. We'll be back with your Next

1169
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:43,040
Speaker 4: Picture Show. Finally, it's time to recommend a film or

1170
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 4: film related item that complements this set of episodes. We

1171
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 4: call it your Next Picture show and the hopes that

1172
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:50,240
Speaker 4: will put some interesting choices on your radar. The film

1173
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:52,160
Speaker 4: that we kind of can't get around here. I mean,

1174
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:54,760
Speaker 4: we talked about other Selessenger films that we like. There's

1175
01:02:54,760 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 4: plenty Darling from Darling to Cold Comfort Farm. He did

1176
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:02,480
Speaker 4: many interesting elms, and of course Iris Sacks. We've talked

1177
01:03:02,480 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 4: about Little Men and Love Is Strange and Keep the

1178
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:08,560
Speaker 4: Lights On, and plenty of other good movies there. But

1179
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 4: the movie we kind of can't get around here as

1180
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:13,600
Speaker 4: Midnight Cowboy, which is Seleshener's most famous film. It's the

1181
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:17,960
Speaker 4: film that he made before Sunday Bloody Sunday and you

1182
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 4: know if you want it sort of has in common

1183
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:24,720
Speaker 4: with Passages some interesting trivia with regard to the rating

1184
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:27,840
Speaker 4: system as well, because that mid Midnight Cowboy had it

1185
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:30,560
Speaker 4: was released with an X rating and had it was

1186
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:35,840
Speaker 4: one best picture, but the X was self applied, which

1187
01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 4: was an interesting piece of trivia, and then it was

1188
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 4: re rated properly as an R like I think the

1189
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:44,560
Speaker 4: next year. So that's that's always kind of a big asterisk.

1190
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:46,360
Speaker 4: As far as Midnight Cowboys concerned, I think there was

1191
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:50,640
Speaker 4: some concern on the part of the Studio United artists

1192
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 4: about releasing a movie with these themes with an R

1193
01:03:55,200 --> 01:03:57,360
Speaker 4: rather than an X, and so that's the way it happened.

1194
01:03:57,360 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 4: But Midnight Cowboy is I think quite a beautiful film.

1195
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:05,600
Speaker 4: I saw it again pretty recently for its fiftieth anniversary.

1196
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:07,920
Speaker 4: I think I did a piece for The Guardian on it,

1197
01:04:08,040 --> 01:04:12,200
Speaker 4: and I think it holds up quite interestingly well, you know,

1198
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:14,840
Speaker 4: because you have those performances. It's star as John Voight

1199
01:04:14,960 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 4: and and and Gene Hackman as these characters in New York.

1200
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 4: John voightd being this a Texan who comes to New

1201
01:04:23,320 --> 01:04:27,600
Speaker 4: York very naive as tries to get work as a

1202
01:04:27,600 --> 01:04:29,960
Speaker 4: as a hustler. And then and then you have Hackman

1203
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:33,360
Speaker 4: as Rats Arizzo, who's I think a pretty you know,

1204
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 4: I guess a con man right, very small, very very

1205
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:39,000
Speaker 4: small time who you know, lives in Squalor and they

1206
01:04:39,040 --> 01:04:40,960
Speaker 4: have this friendship together and it's a really it's a

1207
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 4: friendship that exists on the absolute fringes of New York.

1208
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:47,960
Speaker 4: One of the things that we had talked about earlier

1209
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 4: with regard to location shooting and the value of location

1210
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 4: shooting is is how much of a time capsule it

1211
01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:57,760
Speaker 4: can be. And that's really such a strong impression that

1212
01:04:57,840 --> 01:05:01,320
Speaker 4: I got of watching The Night Cowboy, just of time,

1213
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:05,440
Speaker 4: of time and place and just and I think of

1214
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:08,919
Speaker 4: about the location of ratso Rizzo's you know apartment, which

1215
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:11,880
Speaker 4: doesn't have electricity if I recall, which is just you

1216
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 4: know there there. It's just this desperate place that is

1217
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:17,760
Speaker 4: just quite literally on the edge of town almost it's

1218
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:20,360
Speaker 4: just it's on the you know there, it's almost almost

1219
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 4: on the precipice. And it's just so vividly realized. What

1220
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:26,480
Speaker 4: do you are you all fans of A Midnight Cowboy?

1221
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, I saw that maybe a lot when I was

1222
01:05:28,960 --> 01:05:31,720
Speaker 5: in college. One of those movies I watched so many

1223
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:33,400
Speaker 5: times that I had to stop watching it for a

1224
01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:35,880
Speaker 5: while because I you know, I kind of knew every

1225
01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:36,920
Speaker 5: line and every nuance.

1226
01:05:37,200 --> 01:05:39,200
Speaker 3: And but it's one of those films that we're visiting

1227
01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:41,280
Speaker 3: it twenty thirty years later.

1228
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 5: It's striking to me, like as explicit as it is

1229
01:05:45,840 --> 01:05:48,680
Speaker 5: compared to what came before in terms of like some

1230
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:50,480
Speaker 5: of the language that is used, and of course the

1231
01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:51,920
Speaker 5: general subject of you.

1232
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:53,200
Speaker 3: Know, male hustling.

1233
01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 5: It also like leaves some things vague, like you're supposed

1234
01:05:57,560 --> 01:05:59,280
Speaker 5: to kind of make some intuitive leaps as to what's

1235
01:05:59,320 --> 01:06:01,360
Speaker 5: going on scenes like you have to kind of like

1236
01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:04,400
Speaker 5: figure out the extent of what's happening with with you know,

1237
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:07,320
Speaker 5: Joe and the guys he's trying to, you know, to hustle.

1238
01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:09,000
Speaker 3: And I find that fascinating.

1239
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 5: I'm always interested in these movies from this era that

1240
01:06:11,760 --> 01:06:14,280
Speaker 5: are kind of betwixt in between where they can they

1241
01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 5: can they can hint at a little more than you

1242
01:06:16,720 --> 01:06:19,200
Speaker 5: could have hinted at ten years earlier, but they still

1243
01:06:19,240 --> 01:06:22,360
Speaker 5: can't really go the next step and just say plainly

1244
01:06:22,360 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 5: what they're talking about. But I think it actually works

1245
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 5: for that film. I think it actually makes it more

1246
01:06:26,280 --> 01:06:30,280
Speaker 5: interesting because it is kind of, you know, of its

1247
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:32,520
Speaker 5: time in that way. I mean that sort of depict

1248
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:36,960
Speaker 5: the morays of of you know, the late sixties, which

1249
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:40,360
Speaker 5: we're both with, Frank, but also you know, some things

1250
01:06:40,400 --> 01:06:42,480
Speaker 5: were still underground, and I think I think I think

1251
01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:44,720
Speaker 5: underground and I think underground cinema is actually one of

1252
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 5: the main you know, kind of influences on the look

1253
01:06:47,720 --> 01:06:50,520
Speaker 5: and the feel of a lot of of Midnight Cowboy,

1254
01:06:50,600 --> 01:06:54,320
Speaker 5: including the big sort of velvet undergroundy you know happening

1255
01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:57,560
Speaker 5: you know sequence, the big party sequence, which which feels

1256
01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:01,960
Speaker 5: like it's capturing this aspect of New York City at

1257
01:07:02,000 --> 01:07:04,800
Speaker 5: that time that was very much of its time.

1258
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:08,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I said earlier that to me, the big connection

1259
01:07:08,840 --> 01:07:13,560
Speaker 1: here was just the exploration of the gay experience and

1260
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:16,960
Speaker 1: the flashbacks. But thinking about it further, I think there

1261
01:07:17,000 --> 01:07:20,240
Speaker 1: actually is a lot in common between Sunday Bloody Sunday

1262
01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:22,960
Speaker 1: and this movie in terms of people looking for connection

1263
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:26,360
Speaker 1: and trying to find a way to make that connection

1264
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:29,960
Speaker 1: fill a gap that they're experiencing. And here, as I

1265
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:32,920
Speaker 1: said earlier, you know, it's somebody in a younger and

1266
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:36,280
Speaker 1: more tenuous phase of his life, certainly a much more

1267
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:40,480
Speaker 1: tenuous phase of income. You know, somebody dealing with pretty

1268
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:44,080
Speaker 1: extreme poverty and pretty extreme desperation, as opposed to being

1269
01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 1: pretty settled in a way as all of the people

1270
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:51,960
Speaker 1: in Sunday Bloody Sunday are. They seem decently well off

1271
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:54,920
Speaker 1: and the kind of it in control of their own destiny.

1272
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:57,200
Speaker 1: But I mean here again, what I see is somebody

1273
01:07:58,560 --> 01:08:02,840
Speaker 1: just trying to pursue an art and being really worried

1274
01:08:02,880 --> 01:08:07,080
Speaker 1: about the financial implications, which again also something we see

1275
01:08:07,080 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 1: in Sunday, Bloody Sunday, and trying to do it in

1276
01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:12,800
Speaker 1: a way that's kind of you know, selling his own

1277
01:08:12,800 --> 01:08:17,679
Speaker 1: body and trying to use that to validate his own body,

1278
01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:21,280
Speaker 1: to validate his attractiveness and his youth and his energy

1279
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:24,600
Speaker 1: and his charisma and his value, and just getting rebuffed

1280
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:29,360
Speaker 1: circumstantially or directly over and over and over. So I

1281
01:08:29,400 --> 01:08:33,439
Speaker 1: think they do make good companion pieces, but just be warned,

1282
01:08:33,479 --> 01:08:37,639
Speaker 1: Sunday Bloody Sunday is sad in some ways, but it's

1283
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:44,200
Speaker 1: also very very much about like thinking through what relationships

1284
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:47,360
Speaker 1: bring you. Midnight Cowboys devastating, Yeah.

1285
01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:49,920
Speaker 4: I mean yeah, I mean the three things about three

1286
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 4: more things about about Midnight Cowboy. Everybody's talking. Great song, yeah,

1287
01:08:55,040 --> 01:08:58,120
Speaker 4: great way to kick off the movie. The score is

1288
01:08:58,280 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 4: fantastic and is going through my head now. It's so

1289
01:09:00,360 --> 01:09:03,840
Speaker 4: beautiful and what an ending, Come on, it's an all

1290
01:09:03,880 --> 01:09:06,160
Speaker 4: time are they ending? Oh my god? So beautiful. The

1291
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:10,400
Speaker 4: course with the accidental you know, rain drops outside the

1292
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:14,559
Speaker 4: bus window looking like tears, you know, so such a

1293
01:09:14,600 --> 01:09:18,599
Speaker 4: fantastic kind of you know, movie moment of just of

1294
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:21,720
Speaker 4: just the weather or something giving you like this incredible

1295
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:24,559
Speaker 4: happy accident that makes a film that much more poignant.

1296
01:09:25,000 --> 01:09:27,760
Speaker 4: So yeah, if you haven't seen Midnight Cowboy. I think

1297
01:09:27,760 --> 01:09:30,120
Speaker 4: I think we would all pretty strongly recommend you you

1298
01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:39,280
Speaker 4: remedy be that too sweet. That's it for this edition

1299
01:09:39,320 --> 01:09:41,719
Speaker 4: of the Next Picture Show. We'll be back on August

1300
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:45,599
Speaker 4: twenty ninth and September fifth with another set of episodes. Tasha,

1301
01:09:45,600 --> 01:09:47,240
Speaker 4: do you want to tell us about our next set

1302
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:47,839
Speaker 4: of episodes?

1303
01:09:48,120 --> 01:09:51,000
Speaker 1: Early word on Bottoms, the second future from Shiva Baby

1304
01:09:51,040 --> 01:09:54,960
Speaker 1: writer director Emma Seligman, was so enthusiastic that we naturally

1305
01:09:54,960 --> 01:09:57,280
Speaker 1: had to check it out. It's a little bit BookSmart,

1306
01:09:57,320 --> 01:09:59,120
Speaker 1: a little bit fight club, and even a little bit

1307
01:09:59,200 --> 01:10:02,360
Speaker 1: cocaine bear since it was produced by Elizabeth Thanks and

1308
01:10:02,439 --> 01:10:04,439
Speaker 1: comes from the same over the top sense of humor.

1309
01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:08,040
Speaker 1: Bottoms is a high school comedy about two queer teenage

1310
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:11,920
Speaker 1: girls played by the Bear star Iowa Debris and Shiffa

1311
01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:14,280
Speaker 1: Baby star Rachel Sennett, who hit on the idea of

1312
01:10:14,280 --> 01:10:17,160
Speaker 1: forming an after school self defense club to get closer

1313
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:20,360
Speaker 1: to their crushes, a pair of popular cheerleaders. But the

1314
01:10:20,360 --> 01:10:23,080
Speaker 1: self defense club immediately turns into a girl powertake on

1315
01:10:23,160 --> 01:10:25,880
Speaker 1: David Fincher's Flight Club, and the whole story heads into

1316
01:10:25,880 --> 01:10:29,559
Speaker 1: broadly satirical ends. Some aspects of this film reminded us

1317
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:32,960
Speaker 1: of Michael Lehman's nineteen ninety eight movie Heathers, another dark

1318
01:10:33,040 --> 01:10:36,280
Speaker 1: teenage love story about school outcasts who solve their problems

1319
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:39,760
Speaker 1: in unusually extreme ways. In both of these movies, the

1320
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:42,639
Speaker 1: usual rules about violence not being an answer don't seem

1321
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:45,840
Speaker 1: to apply. These are films that channel the perceived nihilism

1322
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:49,439
Speaker 1: and extreme emotions of high school in unusually transgressive ways.

1323
01:10:49,880 --> 01:10:52,200
Speaker 1: We'll get into it next time on the Next Picture Show.

1324
01:10:52,640 --> 01:10:55,559
Speaker 4: For now, we welcome your feedback on Sunday Blody, Sunday Passages,

1325
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:57,599
Speaker 4: and anything else film related you'd like to talk about.

1326
01:10:57,840 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 4: Email us at comments at Next Picture Show dot net,

1327
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:02,679
Speaker 4: or leave us a voicemail at seven seven three two

1328
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:05,680
Speaker 4: three four tonight seven three zero before we close out

1329
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:08,280
Speaker 4: this week's episode. Where can we find everyone these days?

1330
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:09,440
Speaker 4: Tasha Robinson.

1331
01:11:09,760 --> 01:11:12,840
Speaker 1: I am the film and streaming editor at Polygon dot com.

1332
01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:15,080
Speaker 1: You can find me writing about film over there. I

1333
01:11:15,120 --> 01:11:18,519
Speaker 1: am on X which I'm going to persist in calling

1334
01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:21,200
Speaker 1: Twitter at least as long as it's at Twitter dot

1335
01:11:21,240 --> 01:11:25,719
Speaker 1: com as Tasha Robinson. I'm on Blue Sky as Tasha Robinson.

1336
01:11:25,800 --> 01:11:27,840
Speaker 1: I have not Blue Sky did yet.

1337
01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:28,599
Speaker 6: Uh.

1338
01:11:29,240 --> 01:11:31,760
Speaker 1: Keeping up one social media presence is enough for me

1339
01:11:31,880 --> 01:11:34,360
Speaker 1: without trying to keep up too. I don't know how

1340
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:35,760
Speaker 1: you do it, Scott. I don't know where you find

1341
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:39,639
Speaker 1: hours in the day, No Murray. Are you on any

1342
01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:43,200
Speaker 1: non X social media platforms that people should know about

1343
01:11:43,200 --> 01:11:44,280
Speaker 1: and where can they find your rinning?

1344
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:47,200
Speaker 5: Yes, I am actually on on I'm in the sky,

1345
01:11:47,439 --> 01:11:48,800
Speaker 5: as we like to call out, that's what we say.

1346
01:11:49,560 --> 01:11:51,880
Speaker 5: I think I'm still under at NOLMW. I actually honestly

1347
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:54,360
Speaker 5: don't know. But there aren't that many norl Murrays in

1348
01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:55,840
Speaker 5: the world, so I'm sure you'll if you go to

1349
01:11:55,880 --> 01:11:57,360
Speaker 5: Blue Sky, if you belong to Lucy.

1350
01:11:57,120 --> 01:11:58,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it comes up, you'll find me.

1351
01:11:58,400 --> 01:12:02,000
Speaker 5: And I still have a Twitter account, but I do

1352
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:05,760
Speaker 5: not use it any longer. But yeah, so that's that's there.

1353
01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:08,479
Speaker 5: You can find my writing. I write regularly for the

1354
01:12:08,520 --> 01:12:11,320
Speaker 5: New York Times and for the LA Times. Film Wise,

1355
01:12:11,439 --> 01:12:14,000
Speaker 5: LA Times is the place to look. I have a

1356
01:12:14,000 --> 01:12:17,880
Speaker 5: weekly column where I write about vod and streaming. The

1357
01:12:17,880 --> 01:12:20,240
Speaker 5: column is mostly a recommendation column, so I try to

1358
01:12:20,280 --> 01:12:24,920
Speaker 5: find some really interesting documentaries and genre films and some

1359
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:29,360
Speaker 5: art films that are not being covered necessarily in lots

1360
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 5: of other places. So I'm quite proud of it and

1361
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:34,000
Speaker 5: I hope people will give it a look on in

1362
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 5: the La Times every Friday afternoon.

1363
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:39,120
Speaker 4: Nol's got his own East Coast West Coast rival.

1364
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:43,600
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, exactly, Yeah.

1365
01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:46,800
Speaker 4: Yeah he is. He is big versus Tupac Nola Murray.

1366
01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:50,679
Speaker 4: So you could find me on Twitter. I'll just say Twitter,

1367
01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:54,800
Speaker 4: come on now at Scott Underscore to bias. Uh. You

1368
01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:58,720
Speaker 4: can find my work primarily in The Reveal, the newsletter

1369
01:12:58,760 --> 01:13:02,000
Speaker 4: that I do with co host Keith Keith Phipps. That's

1370
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:05,800
Speaker 4: The Reveal dot substack dot com. You can also find

1371
01:13:05,800 --> 01:13:09,840
Speaker 4: my work in The New York Times, Vulture, Guardian, and

1372
01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:14,040
Speaker 4: other fine publications. Our absent co host Keith Keith Phipps

1373
01:13:14,040 --> 01:13:17,280
Speaker 4: also at The Reveal. Also, he's at Keith Phipps three

1374
01:13:17,320 --> 01:13:21,439
Speaker 4: thousand on both Twitter and Blue Sky and his He

1375
01:13:21,600 --> 01:13:26,440
Speaker 4: has worked elsewhere in GQ, TV Guide, Vulture and other publications.

1376
01:13:26,560 --> 01:13:30,960
Speaker 4: And Genevieve Costky rarely on Twitter, but when she's there,

1377
01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:34,920
Speaker 4: it's at Genevieve Coosky, and she is the senior TV

1378
01:13:35,120 --> 01:13:38,840
Speaker 4: editor for Vulture. Stay updated on the Next Picture Show

1379
01:13:38,840 --> 01:13:40,880
Speaker 4: at Next Picture Show dot net and on Twitter at

1380
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:44,839
Speaker 4: Next Pressure Pod. Get bonus content and opendiscussion at patreon

1381
01:13:44,880 --> 01:13:47,640
Speaker 4: dot com slash Next Picture Show and as always we

1382
01:13:47,680 --> 01:13:50,599
Speaker 4: appreciate your ratings and reviews on Apple Podcasts or ree

1383
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:53,200
Speaker 4: you listen to the show. Thank you very much nol

1384
01:13:53,240 --> 01:13:55,800
Speaker 4: Mary for guesting today.

1385
01:13:55,560 --> 01:13:56,720
Speaker 3: Always happy to be.

1386
01:13:56,680 --> 01:14:00,000
Speaker 4: Here, killing it every time. We kill it every damn times.

1387
01:14:00,000 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 4: Thanks to Dan the bake Jakes for his assistants producing

1388
01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:04,840
Speaker 4: this podcast. The Next Picture Show is proud to be

1389
01:14:04,880 --> 01:14:08,040
Speaker 4: part of the Film Spotting family of podcasts. Please tune

1390
01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:08,719
Speaker 4: in next time.